Astros OK if they stand pat?? i dont think so, Jim Molony does!

[trickywhiteguy]

In their ongoing quest to bring Houston the best team $106 million can buy, the brains of the Astros organization -- owner Drayton McLane, president Tal Smith, general manager Tim Purpura and manager Phil Garner -- met for a couple hours at Minute Maid Park on Tuesday afternoon.

Details of that session were not forthcoming, but with the deadline to make trades without going through waivers only six days away, you can bet your box seats the Big Four discussed what options might be available and the wisdom in pursuing any or none of them.

While there is no question a Houston offense that ranks next to last in the National League in runs could use another bat, the Astros already have made one upgrade with the recent acquisition of Aubrey Huff, and third baseman Morgan Ensberg will be returning from the disabled list soon. The pitching staff has been bolstered recently with the addition of Roger Clemens and the return of Brandon Backe.

With those moves, and the return to good health of Ensberg and Lance Berkman, who did not start Tuesday's game against Cincinnati because of a groin strain, there is a case to be made that the Houston roster already is capable of getting this team back to the postseason -- and if so, why tinker further when there is really no clear upgrade available in this seller's market?

More and more, the Astros are asking themselves the same thing.

Sure, they probably could obtain a guy like Baltimore shortstop Miguel Tejada, but at a cost that would likely gut the team's present bullpen and future prospects. To make such a deal for a player who could be gone in two months, since he could then turn around and demand a trade at season's end, would be foolish.

The Astros probably could pick up lefty reliever Damaso Marte of the Pirates or Aaron Fultz of the Phillies for the price of a couple of prospects, but would that be the best use of assets and would they really be difference-makers in the bullpen?

As much as the offense has struggled and as many inconsistent performances this team has had in the first 100 games, the Astros entered play Tuesday only five games out in the Wild Card race. That's hardly an insurmountable hole for a team that usually plays much better after the All-Star break and one that hasn't been at full strength.

The fans naturally are clamoring for Purpura to add offense, but fans generally are impatient.

Purpura took heat for standing pat last year, and his patience was vindicated when the Astros caught fire and reached the World Series. This year's team potentially is even better than last year's, although frustrating performances like Tuesday night's 2-0 loss to Aaron Harang and the Reds may make it hard to believe that.

Going the trade route might be advisable if there were compelling targets out there, but unlike two summers ago, there are no Carlos Beltrans on the market this time.

This time, going with what they've got is the right move for the Astros, and apparently the course they will take.

"We're really not close to anything right now," McLane said. "We have a $106 million budget -- it's the third-highest in Major League Baseball. I hope that shows to all of our fans our commitment to winning."

Garner agreed lack of money isn't the problem.

"I can't complain with the money we spend around here," Garner said. "We've not been pinching pennies. We have a budget that should win, let's put it that way."

The Reds overspent for bullpen help because they knew they had no choice. Cincinnati could not remain in the playoff picture without the additions.

The Houston situation is different. The Astros can win without any more roster additions, just as they did last year. If Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Roy Oswalt and Brad Lidge pitch like they can pitch, and Berkman, Ensberg, Huff, Mike Lamb and Chris Burke hit like they can hit, this team is good enough to reach the playoffs again.

The pieces are in place if the Astros can stay patient and let the other contenders worry about Monday's deadline.

"I've been in business over 40 years, and some of the best business deals you make are the ones you don't make," McLane said.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20060725&content_id=1575497&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

[thacabbage]

"We have a $106 million budget -- it's the third-highest in Major League Baseball. I hope that shows to all of our fans our commitment to winning."
I realize he's been putting in the money needed, but it seriously rubs me the wrong way when he continuously smears comments like this one in our faces.

I hope the fact that we keep filling up the Juice Box shows our commitment to your team.

[Kerfeld]

The only reason the payroll is as high as it this year, is because for years the Astros have backloaded their contracts for years and this is the year when it all finally came due.

[Ric]

To make such a deal for a player who could be gone in two months, since he could then turn around and demand a trade at season's end, would be foolish.
…
Going the trade route might be advisable if there were compelling targets out there, but unlike two summers ago, there are no Carlos Beltrans on the market this time.
vomit. fine, you're not going to make a trade; but don't insult our intelligence when justifying the decision. offensively, alfonso soriano is better than carlos beltran was in 2004. by quite a wide margin. and he is most assuredly available.

if tejada and/or lee are dealt, they, too, are every bit the offensive spark beltran was with considerably more power. and how is demanding a trade any more of a deterrent than beltran being in the final year of his contract?

ugh. don’t assume we’re all morons... this is when i wish the astros would employ a fan who had the autonomy to say things like, “uhm, drayton… yeah, utter bull****, and everyone knows it. be honest; they’ll respect you more in the end.”

"We have a $106 million budget -- it's the third-highest in Major League Baseball. I hope that shows to all of our fans our commitment to winning."

how do people feel about this quote? it kind of bothers me a bit. i've never been a drayton basher. ever. i think he's the best owner in town.

and i understand and respect $106M is $106M and it all comes out of his pocket no matter how you slice it. i don't begrudge him that. but does anyone else agree he's using that number a little loosely?

take away bagwell's $18M, and the actual "on the field" payroll is $88M (it was actually about $76M before clemens) - still very healthy; but at the start of the season, it would have ranked around 10th, bunched with three other teams with $88M payrolls.

what i find disingenuous is that the organization tries to sell it, and justify their baseball decisions, as if it is a $106M team and it's not. and compromises have been made on the field while they try to convince us that they’re trotting out a $106M team every night. it's simply not true.

again, $106M is $106M, and drayton has to write those checks, so i'm not complaining; and an $88M payroll is OK by me; i have no complaints about that, either. i'm complaining that the organization is using the "third highest payroll" ranking disingenuously, imo. anyone else agree?

[Groogrux]

i'm complaining that the organization is using the "third highest payroll" ranking disingenuously, imo. anyone else agree?

I don't agree at all. Most other owners, saddled with paying someone $18 million (actually, how many owners are even paying one person $18 million?) for doing nothing wouldn't be willing to go out and expand that payroll.

The fact that Bagwell isn't playing makes the $106 million payroll more impressive. He invested a ton of money (whether it was backloaded or not) in someone who is not living up to their end of the contract. Instead of stewing about that, Drayton has shown the willingness to go out and spend money to improve this team.

And for the **** that he's received from fans over the years, despite putting out an exceptional product, I wouldn't blame Drayton for saying, "kiss my rich old white ass you ****in' whiners, enjoy the next season of $30 million payroll". But he's too classy for that.

[rcoleman15]

You know what is really sad about all this? Most people assume we would be paying Tejada 12 million dollars if we traded for him this season. When infact we would only be paying him 4 million dollars over the course of the last two months. Tejada's contract is for 12 million over the course of the entire season or 6 months. That equates out to two million dollars a month so infact we would only be paying him 4 million dollars over the course of the last two months.

[Groogrux]

You know what is really sad about all this? Most people assume we would be paying Tejada 12 million dollars if we traded for him this season. When infact we would only be paying him 4 million dollars over the course of the last two months. Tejada's contract is for 12 million over the course of the entire season or 6 months. That equates out to two million dollars a month so infact we would only be paying him 4 million dollars over the course of the last two months.

How is that sad again?

[rcoleman15]

How is that sad again?

Because people are using either one of two arguements against this trade. 1) The prospects arguement or 2) the money arguemnt.

And it is sad because this isn't over 12 million dollars for the people who are making the moneu arguement. It is infact over 4 million and that isn't alot for a possible chance at the playoffs and the world series.

[Ric]

Drayton has shown the willingness to go out and spend money to improve this team.
and that right there is where my cage is being rattled. yes, you're right; but he's only willing to improve it up to a point because of the bagwell contract and then shoving the payroll ranking at us to justify their course.

again, i'm pro drayton; i am. the team's performance may frustrate me, but i think he's been a great owner overall, and i've never ripped him. i do think he takes far too many us for morons (we're not all small town hicks, drayton), but overall, hard to complain.

having said that - i think he and the team are being disingenous. this team was constructed with a handicap: bagwell's salary, but it's trying to pretend it wasn't, like they've been out spending madly to make the team better. eh.... not exactly. they would not have the third highest payroll in baseball if bagwell's deal had been voidable. and that's fine. but don't try to sell that you would.

[Blake]

Our offense is pathetic. Second worst in the NL. We have starters that come out and pitch 2 or 3 run ballgames, and you get quotes from our players like this (Ausmus last night):

"Aaron Harang has pitched very well against us and has got very good stuff," Astros catcher Brad Ausmus said. "In my opinion, he's probably the most underrated pitcher in the National League. He's tough on both righties and lefties with an A-plus slider. We knew one run would make a difference, and when they got that second run it sort of sealed it off."


Does this sound like a team confident in it's offense. We need to make a move. We should give up prospects. We have enough young pitching and young hitters to give up some farm talent. Timmy P better step it up. Aubrey Huff, while a good move, has been a joke. It's like Ensberg all over again...but with a weaker arm in the field

[NJRocket]

Prospects are exactly that....prospects. For every Roy O, there are probably 10 Scott Elartons, Chris Trubys or even Jason Lanes.

I think when guys like Tejada, Soriano (not saying he is even on our radar) or anyone else like that which requires a prospect or 2 in return, go for it...especially a guy like Tejada who is locked up for 2 or 3 more years already. Soriano is different because he is a free agent at season's end. That being said, if wash would take back Preston Wilson (who actually played well for them) and a prospect, id do it. That seems to be all they want from other teams.

We can replenish the farm.

[Ric]

Prospects are exactly that....prospects.
i agree, except i wouldn't deal prospects for soriano. i'd love to have him, but not for two months.

tejada, at least, gives you a foundation to build around. he, burke, berkman, oswalt and lidge/qualls/wheeler is a pretty damn good nucelus.

[Major]

Does this sound like a team confident in it's offense. We need to make a move. We should give up prospects. We have enough young pitching and young hitters to give up some farm talent. Timmy P better step it up. Aubrey Huff, while a good move, has been a joke. It's like Ensberg all over again...but with a weaker arm in the field

So what makes you think getting another player will be any better than Huff?

Look, this team sucks right now, but it's not something that can be fixed with a trade. To win a World Series (or even make the playoffs), you have to have a good collection of talent (we do), and most of those guys have to perform to expectations with a few performing above expectations. Last year, the White Sox pitching staff performed well above expectations. For us, Ensberg, Ausmus (in the 2nd half), Petttitte, Clemens, Qualls, and Wheeler performed above expectations, and that took a good team and made it great.

If you look at this team right now, no one is performing above expectations except some part-time players (Burke, Lamb), who weren't even supposed to be starting. On the opposite side, most players are performing below expectations - Biggio, Ausmus, Everett, Ensberg, Wilson, Willy T, Oswalt, Pettitte, Qualls, Wheeler, Lidge. A trade doesn't solve anything. Unless these guys perform at least to what was reasonably expected, adding Tejada isn't going to make one bit of a difference. An extra bat won't make this team go from scoring 3 runs a game to 6 runs a game - it's just a matter of the current bats actually doing something.

[DaDakota]

The money is fine...the CHEMISTRY isn't.

DD

[Major]

Prospects are exactly that....prospects. For every Roy O, there are probably 10 Scott Elartons, Chris Trubys or even Jason Lanes.

I think when guys like Tejada, Soriano (not saying he is even on our radar) or anyone else like that which requires a prospect or 2 in return, go for it...especially a guy like Tejada who is locked up for 2 or 3 more years already. Soriano is different because he is a free agent at season's end. That being said, if wash would take back Preston Wilson (who actually played well for them) and a prospect, id do it. That seems to be all they want from other teams.

We can replenish the farm.

Keep in mind that Tejada can demand a trade at the end of the season as a player being traded in the middle of a multi-year deal.

[Ric]

Keep in mind that Tejada can demand a trade at the end of the season as a player being traded in the middle of a multi-year deal.
big difference between demanding a trade and being a free agent; we have no idea if he'll exercise his right and if he were to do so, the team can at least recoup some of what it lost to get him; it's not like he'd walk away for nothing.

but as far as i can recall, no player has ever done this.

[Surfguy]

This season is all about individual player failures...specifically as applies to offense. Biggio, Taveras, Everett, Ausmus, Ensberg, Lane, Bruntlett, Palmeiro...all failed to do as well last season and improve themselves this season. They pretty much did a nosedive on us. While our pitching has been spotty at times, with an anemic offense like ours...every pitching mistake is magnified many times.

[NJRocket]

Keep in mind that Tejada can demand a trade at the end of the season as a player being traded in the middle of a multi-year deal.


true...but that means you get something back for him....probably prospects

[candlegreen]

and that right there is where my cage is being rattled. yes, you're right; but he's only willing to improve it up to a point because of the bagwell contract and then shoving the payroll ranking at us to justify their course.

again, i'm pro drayton; i am. the team's performance may frustrate me, but i think he's been a great owner overall, and i've never ripped him. i do think he takes far too many us for morons (we're not all small town hicks, drayton), but overall, hard to complain.

having said that - i think he and the team are being disingenous. this team was constructed with a handicap: bagwell's salary, but it's trying to pretend it wasn't, like they've been out spending madly to make the team better. eh.... not exactly. they would not have the third highest payroll in baseball if bagwell's deal had been voidable. and that's fine. but don't try to sell that you would.

Each team has a BUDGET to what they're willing to spend. The Astros have gone over that budget year after year to try to win. They've BEEN winning for most of the past decade. What's the argument? So Bagwell cost 18 Andy and Roger does NOT come back and Roy tampers with FA, what are you left with? Now imagine that all you have is Backe and Buchholtz and you don't have Hirsh or Nieve read and Pence, your ONLY reliable hitter in the minors might be gone too. In addition, you lose whatever else Lidge could've possibly given you, assuming he could make a career comeback.

There are a lot to this than the "4 million dollars." Also, there's a chance he'll pull a Beltran and opt out and you're stuck with virtually nothing. (maybe a compensation draftpick) Then what will Drayton McLane have to endure? MORE bashing from you guys.... This is not the Yankees, and McLane has spent money time and time again. KEEPING YOU OWN GUYS cost money. Bagwell's signed to a heavy end contract because he spent money early to acquire other talents. Hidalgo, Alou, Kent, Wagner, etc. cost money. Bagwell's contract is constructed so we have a good chance of winning DURING his prime. He's paying for it now, one of 2 consecutive seasons where experts EVERYWHERE suggest that it's time for the Astros to rebuild and reload. Most teams can't handle that many years in the top because trades for better players will kill your farm system. Braves were lucky with their farm system that they were always to just rely on home grown talent for the most part. Yankees have the money to attract FAs so they don't care, but their farm is depleted. Same goes with Boston. To disregard Bagwell's 18 million just because he's not playing is ridiculous.

Why be angry that he kept mentioning the payroll? It's because people KEEP bashing him for "not" spending money. People bash him because we're not the highest bidder on players? If you high bid for 3 players (Let's say Berkman/Oswalt/Beltran) for about 13/14/17 million a year.... that's 44 million. Let's add the 15 or so from Pettite and another 18 for Roger, that's 77 million. Then don't complain if the club add a bunch of Brad Ausmuses and Adam Everetts to complete the lineup. Why? Because you have Lidge, Biggio, Ensberg and 17 other players in the 25 man roster. You see why it's hard to bid high on EVERY player? That's why teams CONTEND and BID for a player. If 5 teams want a player badly, don't be so upset EACH time the Astros didn't come out the winner. I mean, seriously..., people are ready to crucify management and the owner every time someone gets a player. I don't remember an 80 man roster. Every time someone else makes a move, it's "why didn't the Astros get him? Drayton and Purpura disappoints me." Every time we got someone, and he doesn't work out, it's "stupid money spent. We could've gotten player x, y, z, or player 3.14159) People hit and miss. And the misses stay longer because those are bad contracts and no one wants them. After so many years of trying to make a contender, you're bound to keep a bunch of misses and start over. If that's the case, then I'm with the Astros during times which they aren't winning. You can do whatever you want during that time, but don't be spoiled.

[rcoleman15]

Uh Beltran was a free agent to begin with so he didn't opt out of anything.

[Fegwu]

"We're really not close to anything right now," McLane said. "We have a $106 million budget -- it's the third-highest in Major League Baseball. I hope that shows to all of our fans our commitment to winning."

That is a really a disingenuous statement.

It would have been better he did not say that. The fans are not dummies. Dreyt is a great salesman and as a salesman myself, we know how to BS as conveniently as possible. Our payroll is high but the backended contracts distorts the whole truth of our current position.

[MadMax]

That is a really a disingenuous statement.

It is btter he did not say. The fans are not dummies. Dreyt is a great salesman and as a salesman myself, we know how to BS as conveniently as possible. Our payroll is high but the backended contracts distorts the whole truth of our current position.

IT'S STILL MONEY OUT!!! it still affects the team's bottom line. every team in the league is having payroll reported the exact same way. if there's an obligation they have to pay to a player, injured or otherwise, it's still part of what's reported as that team's payroll. there's nothing deceptive or disingenuous about it. the man still has to write the check.

peoples' generosity with other people's money is funny to me.

[gwayneco]

I don't agree at all. Most other owners, saddled with paying someone $18 million (actually, how many owners are even paying one person $18 million?) for doing nothing wouldn't be willing to go out and expand that payroll.

The fact that Bagwell isn't playing makes the $106 million payroll more impressive. He invested a ton of money (whether it was backloaded or not) in someone who is not living up to their end of the contract. Instead of stewing about that, Drayton has shown the willingness to go out and spend money to improve this team.

And for the **** that he's received from fans over the years, despite putting out an exceptional product, I wouldn't blame Drayton for saying, "kiss my rich old white ass you ****in' whiners, enjoy the next season of $30 million payroll". But he's too classy for that.

He has only himself to blame for the Bagwell contract. Look, I think he's areally good owner, but his "poor pitiful me" whining is annoying when it's a consequence of his own bad decisions.

[MadMax]

He has only himself to blame for the Bagwell contract. Look, I think he's areally good owner, but his "poor pitiful me" whining is annoying when it's a consequence of his own bad decisions.

who says poor pitiful me? i hear astros fans say that mclane says that. i never hear mclane say it.

richard justice says to get mclane to talk about payroll, you have to corner him. that he won't bring it up unless asked.

truth be told, his comments aren't put in any context at all in this article. we don't know what was asked...we dont' what was said immediately before or after.

[Ric]

What's the argument?
they don’t have the 3rd highest payroll by choice; they tried to wipe bagwell’s money off the books and failed. because of that, they have no choice but to pay him. but by constantly running to this notion of having the third highest payroll, they want us to believe that had they been able to get out of bagwell’s deal, that they’d still have the third highest payroll and that is patently untrue.

further, don’t tell us you’re doing all you can to build a winner, or that a “$106M team” should be winning more – this is an $88M team compromised by bagwell’s salary.

and that’s fine. let me emphatically repeat that – THAT’S OK. but don’t sell it as something it’s not.

There are a lot to this than the "4 million dollars." Also, there's a chance he'll pull a Beltran and opt out and you're stuck with virtually nothing.
you’re getting me mixed up with others. i never made any claims about specific players.

but… beltran opted out of nothing – he was a free agent. likewise, tejada can only demand a trade; he can’t opt out of anything. if he becomes the first player that i know of to use that clause, then the team will be compensated with players when they trade him.

Why be angry that he kept mentioning the payroll?
drayton is free to spend however much $$ he wants; he’s put a quality product on the field for nearly a decade now; he’s kept the local guys home and he’s reached for greatness a lot of the time.

i’m not bashing him. at the same time, don’t tell me you’re doing everything to be a champion by hiding behind the “3rd largest payroll in baseball” line, either – it’s specious reasoning. they would not have the third highest payroll in baseball if drayton had any say; it’d be about $18M less.

and again, that’s fine. but the team cut corners and let bagwell’s salary handicap their roster. to try and sell any other story is disingenuous.

IT'S STILL MONEY OUT!!!
MM, i agree - i hope i'm posts don't paint me as a drayton basher; i'm not.

as i said initially, $106M is $106M. but, do you believe, if he had found a way out of bagwell's deal (and he DID try), that he would have spent that $18M on the team?

and if the answer is no, i'm ok with that. but then don't sell me the "3rd highest payroll" gambit.

[SWTsig]

Each team has a BUDGET to what they're willing to spend. The Astros have gone over that budget year after year to try to win. They've BEEN winning for most of the past decade. What's the argument? So Bagwell cost 18 Andy and Roger does NOT come back and Roy tampers with FA, what are you left with? Now imagine that all you have is Backe and Buchholtz and you don't have Hirsh or Nieve read and Pence, your ONLY reliable hitter in the minors might be gone too. In addition, you lose whatever else Lidge could've possibly given you, assuming he could make a career comeback.

There are a lot to this than the "4 million dollars." Also, there's a chance he'll pull a Beltran and opt out and you're stuck with virtually nothing. (maybe a compensation draftpick) Then what will Drayton McLane have to endure? MORE bashing from you guys.... This is not the Yankees, and McLane has spent money time and time again. KEEPING YOU OWN GUYS cost money. Bagwell's signed to a heavy end contract because he spent money early to acquire other talents. Hidalgo, Alou, Kent, Wagner, etc. cost money. Bagwell's contract is constructed so we have a good chance of winning DURING his prime. He's paying for it now, one of 2 consecutive seasons where experts EVERYWHERE suggest that it's time for the Astros to rebuild and reload. Most teams can't handle that many years in the top because trades for better players will kill your farm system. Braves were lucky with their farm system that they were always to just rely on home grown talent for the most part. Yankees have the money to attract FAs so they don't care, but their farm is depleted. Same goes with Boston. To disregard Bagwell's 18 million just because he's not playing is ridiculous.

Why be angry that he kept mentioning the payroll? It's because people KEEP bashing him for "not" spending money. People bash him because we're not the highest bidder on players? If you high bid for 3 players (Let's say Berkman/Oswalt/Beltran) for about 13/14/17 million a year.... that's 44 million. Let's add the 15 or so from Pettite and another 18 for Roger, that's 77 million. Then don't complain if the club add a bunch of Brad Ausmuses and Adam Everetts to complete the lineup. Why? Because you have Lidge, Biggio, Ensberg and 17 other players in the 25 man roster. You see why it's hard to bid high on EVERY player? That's why teams CONTEND and BID for a player. If 5 teams want a player badly, don't be so upset EACH time the Astros didn't come out the winner. I mean, seriously..., people are ready to crucify management and the owner every time someone gets a player. I don't remember an 80 man roster. Every time someone else makes a move, it's "why didn't the Astros get him? Drayton and Purpura disappoints me." Every time we got someone, and he doesn't work out, it's "stupid money spent. We could've gotten player x, y, z, or player 3.14159) People hit and miss. And the misses stay longer because those are bad contracts and no one wants them. After so many years of trying to make a contender, you're bound to keep a bunch of misses and start over. If that's the case, then I'm with the Astros during times which they aren't winning. You can do whatever you want during that time, but don't be spoiled.

*NEWSFLASH*

WELCOME TO SPORTS

that's the way it is - for every team, in every city, with every fan. so save us the "spoiled fan" bit.

our offense has SUCKED. for two freaking years. and you're trying to justify why the astros shouldn't make a move to get one of the premeire players in the league??? cute.

and did you not realize the money we have coming off the books next year? in the range of $45 MILLION? and you still give us this bullsh!t schpeil? what good is all this salary if it isn't going to bring a title??? they apparently have a clear opportunity to add the one thing we desperately need (a prime time bat), but are gonna hold off why again? because they think maybe, just maybe, one of the worst hitting teams in the majors the past 2 years can miraculously turn it around - again???

i'm sorry.... i just don't buy it. we may have a very high payroll, and i appreciate what drayton has done, but when almost 1/2 of that payroll is coming off next year using it as an excuse to not make this team much more competitive isn't gonna cut it.

[Clutch]

Is Jim Molony a writer specifically for the Astros? If so, I think this article tells us that nothing is going to happen before the deadline. It reeks of pre-emptive damage control. They know they won't be making a move (or it doesn't look at all likely), so they have an article on their official site talk about how great the team is without making any moves. I think it's transparent... hope I'm wrong, but looks that way.

[gwayneco]

who says poor pitiful me? i hear astros fans say that mclane says that. i never hear mclane say it.

richard justice says to get mclane to talk about payroll, you have to corner him. that he won't bring it up unless asked.

truth be told, his comments aren't put in any context at all in this article. we don't know what was asked...we dont' what was said immediately before or after.

He whined about losing money in the Astrodome and he acts like he never made any money at Enron/MMP. For PR's sake, he wants the fans to think that he has a "commitment to winning", but I have always thought he was just gonnna coast this year on last year's success. Bringing back Clemens was part of that PR move because he wanted fans to think that he was seriously looking to win. If the only significant additions to this team are the off-season signing of Wilson and the mid-season trade for Huff, then he was in effect resting on last year's laurels. That may not be such a bad thing because I don't want them blowing everything for one last ditch effort to win in 2006. Next year he should have more flexibility with the salary and that's when the Astros need to make their move.

[Ric]

Is Jim Molony a writer specifically for the Astros? ... I think it's transparent... hope I'm wrong, but looks that way.
i felt the same way; it's an obvious pre-emptive damage control piece.

molony, i believe, is a freelance writer for MLB, though i'm also fairly certain he used to be or still is based in houston. i think he worked for the post.

[gwayneco]

MM, i agree - i hope i'm posts don't paint me as a drayton basher; i'm not.

as i said initially, $106M is $106M. but, do you believe, if he had found a way out of bagwell's deal (and he DID try), that he would have spent that $18M on the team?

and if the answer is no, i'm ok with that. but then don't sell me the "3rd highest payroll" gambit.

A lot of folks were eager to see McLane get his hands on the Bagwell insurance check because they thought he would go out and roll that money back into payroll to improve the team. I always thought that was a very dubious assumption.

[MadMax]

He whined about losing money in the Astrodome and he acts like he never made any money at Enron/MMP. For PR's sake, he wants the fans to think that he has a "commitment to winning", but I have always thought he was just gonnna coast this year on last year's success. Bringing back Clemens was part of that PR move because he wanted fans to think that he was seriously looking to win. If the only significant additions to this team are the off-season signing of Wilson and the mid-season trade for Huff, then he was in effect resting on last year's laurels. That may not be such a bad thing because I don't want them blowing everything for one last ditch effort to win in 2006. Next year he should have more flexibility with the salary and that's when the Astros need to make their move.

1. i never hear him whine.

2. he did lose money in the astrodome. i've never heard anyone make a convincing argument to the contrary. yet he still increased payroll every year.

3. he's an owner, not a gm. you don't think bringing in clemens was a good baseball move based on what clemens showed you last season????

[DieHard Rocket]

The key to this whole season is Ensberg. If he gets back healthy and returns to form it will be just as good as adding another bat. Last year he was a bigtime catalyst in the lineup during the second half run, continuosly getting clutch hits and producing.

If he doesn't return to form, kiss the playoffs goodbye. Purpura and Drayton are in a tough situation here...there's not enough time to see whether Ensberg will truly get back again this year, so they're either going to have to jeopardize the future for what could be a 2 month rental or risk it with Ensberg.

[Groogrux]

The key to this whole season is Ensberg. If he gets back healthy and returns to form it will be just as good as adding another bat. Last year he was a bigtime catalyst in the lineup during the second half run, continuosly getting clutch hits and producing.

If he doesn't return to form, kiss the playoffs goodbye. Purpura and Drayton are in a tough situation here...there's not enough time to see whether Ensberg will truly get back again this year, so they're either going to have to jeopardize the future for what could be a 2 month rental or risk it with Ensberg.

There it is.

[gwayneco]

1. i never hear him whine.

2. he did lose money in the astrodome. i've never heard anyone make a convincing argument to the contrary. yet he still increased payroll every year.

3. he's an owner, not a gm. you don't think bringing in clemens was a good baseball move based on what clemens showed you last season????

He whines all the time. It's part of an effort to solicit sympathy from the fans.

I've never seen actual proof that he lost money in the Astrodome.

I do think bringing Clemens was a good baseball move, but in a vaccum and absent other moves, it accomplished little. Therefore, until they make another significant move, it looks like it was more for PR's sake.

[Groogrux]

He whines all the time. It's part of an effort to solicit sympathy from the fans.


Please prove this absurd accusation.

The only whiners are the idiotic so-called fans who do nothing but bitch and moan despite being lucky enough to watch one of the most accomplished teams in MLB over the past decade.

[MadMax]

i don't see/hear the whining gwayneco. i don't hear him whining now.

[Fegwu]

IT'S STILL MONEY OUT!!! it still affects the team's bottom line. every team in the league is having payroll reported the exact same way. if there's an obligation they have to pay to a player, injured or otherwise, it's still part of what's reported as that team's payroll. there's nothing deceptive or disingenuous about it. the man still has to write the check.

peoples' generosity with other people's money is funny to me.

I agree somewhat. I may have been misunderstood a 'lill bit - I am not mad at Dreyt as it concerns how he spends or plans to spend his money. In fact I understand the situation - I will be reluctant as well to let go Hirsh or Troy or Pence or any other blue chip prospect with the way the market is shaped. The last thing I want is reach over unnecessarily. I am not sure I will complain or frown whatsovere they choose to do this season - they have a little pass because of what they have accomplished in the last 2 seasons.

That said, my point is centered on the statement without prejudice. The statement reeks of faux-naif to me - it is not necessary, we know what's up.

[MadMax]

statement reeks of faux-naif to me -

i took Latin.

[Gene the PIG]

Drayton spends his money, I'll give him that ... mostly in all the wrong places. We suck, face it.

I don't know about yoos, but with people knowing I'm an Astros fan & all that, even if they know sbsolutely NOTHING about baseball , they've been coming up to me recently & commenting about how much we suck, & how Clemens gets ZERO run support & how we never score runs, & that we always lose on national TV ... I'm as sick of that as the actual losing.


Face it, the run is over. We're not going to do anything, & we prolly won't do much in the off-season either. We'll watch all of the offense go elsewhere & we'll be back here next year doing the same bitching.

I hope to be proven wrong, but that's my op.

We're going to be SWEPT by the Reds. Then what? Oooh, no sweat, the August run is coming. :rolleyes:

[Major]

our offense has SUCKED. for two freaking years. and you're trying to justify why the astros shouldn't make a move to get one of the premeire players in the league??? cute.


No it hasn't. It sucked in April & May last year when Berkman was hurt. From June through October, it was the #5 offense in the NL.

And it didn't suck this April. It sucked in May, June, and July. So it has sucked for 5 out of the last 11 months of baseball now.

[Major]

He whined about losing money in the Astrodome and he acts like he never made any money at Enron/MMP.

No he didn't. He simply stated that he wasn't going to take non-stop losses when he's been asked about it. Please find the whining.

[Ric]

Purpura and Drayton are in a tough situation here...there's not enough time to see whether Ensberg will truly get back again this year, so they're either going to have to jeopardize the future for what could be a 2 month rental or risk it with Ensberg.
bingo. which is why ensberg and/or the team sitting on their hands for five weeks while he consistently proved night after night that he wasn't anywhere near right has made him the focus of most of our wrath, mine included.

you can cite 1 or 100 things the astros have blundered this year, but those five weeks rank #1 without a doubt, imo.

[MadMax]

Drayton spends his money, I'll give him that ... mostly in all the wrong places. We suck, face it.

I don't know about yoos, but with people knowing I'm an Astros fan & all that, even if they know sbsolutely NOTHING about baseball , they've been coming up to me recently & commenting about how much we suck, & how Clemens gets ZERO run support & how we never score runs, & that we always lose on national TV ... I'm as sick of that as the actual losing.


Face it, the run is over. We're not going to do anything, & we prolly won't do much in the off-season either. We'll watch all of the offense go elsewhere & we'll be back here next year doing the same bitching.

I hope to be proven wrong, but that's my op.

We're going to be SWEPT by the Reds. Then what? Oooh, no sweat, the August run is coming. :rolleyes:

And they say the bird flu can be transmitted human to human now.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8c/Racheldratchdebbie.jpg/250px-



if it makes you that miserable, please stop watching.

[Major]

A lot of folks were eager to see McLane get his hands on the Bagwell insurance check because they thought he would go out and roll that money back into payroll to improve the team. I always thought that was a very dubious assumption.

You realize we were linked to players such as Tejada and Abreu in the offseason, right? Both of those players cost $10-$15MM per year.

[MadMax]

You realize we were linked to players such as Tejada and Abreu in the offseason, right? Both of those players cost $10-$15MM per year.

yeah, but they didn't get traded to anyone. so that's mclane's fault, remember.

[Major]

Drayton spends his money, I'll give him that ... mostly in all the wrong places. We suck, face it.


Yup, he's been terrible at spending money. I mean, getting to the NLCS and World Series last year was just horrid.

What owners in baseball spend their money better?

[Buck Turgidson]

if it makes you that miserable, please stop watching.
I don't give a **** if anybody watches or not, but stop subjecting the rest of us to 3rd-rate espn message board bull****.

Take a deep breath, use your brains, and try to raise the level of discourse to something approaching coherent adult thought.

[Ric]

yeah, but they didn't get traded to anyone. so that's mclane's fault, remember.
dude, pot down the elitist tone. discussions may not always rise to a mensa level, but no one here is illiterate, and therefore, you do yourself no favors by portraying them as such. most of the rancor comes out of frustration; having a better handle on it doesn't make your stance, or you, superior.

mcclane's a great owner. as clemens, pettitte & biggio wrap up their careers and we enter a pseudo-rebuilding phase, people will get a better perspective of this and come to appreciate the past decade.

but right now, everyone's jonsing for the playoffs - they're fun; it jazzes the entire community and it gives us something positive and upbeat to discuss in the midst of a lot of downbeat stories these days. i know i for one will really miss playoff baseball. we've been spoiled.

[DieHard Rocket]

Face it, the run is over. We're not going to do anything, & we prolly won't do much in the off-season either. We'll watch all of the offense go elsewhere & we'll be back here next year doing the same bitching.

I hope to be proven wrong, but that's my op.

We're going to be SWEPT by the Reds. Then what? Oooh, no sweat, the August run is coming. :rolleyes:

We're going to have something like $40 million coming off the books. Recent history has given us no reason to believe they won't take action in the offseason, especially with that kind of money freed up.

We signed Jeff Kent, Andy Pettitte, and Roger Clemens the last couple of times we had roster space and money to do so. We got Preston Wilson, who hasn't been spectacular, but there were really no better alternatives.

They're going to make a run at somebody, and the odds are pretty good seeing as we have a lot of money, a pretty good team of late, and Houston is a cheap place to live. They're not going to sit on their hands.

As far as this season, it is still far from over. This is a huge series, but we're still in freakin July. I'm not saying we should be betting on another spectacular run, but if the past two seasons have taught you anything you don't pronounce this team dead in July.

[trickywhiteguy]

they don’t have the 3rd highest payroll by choice; they tried to wipe bagwell’s money off the books and failed. because of that, they have no choice but to pay him. but by constantly running to this notion of having the third highest payroll, they want us to believe that had they been able to get out of bagwell’s deal, that they’d still have the third highest payroll and that is patently untrue.

even that at the end of the season if Bags dosent play a game Drayton gets that money back! i dont see bags playen this year so i look at are payroll at 88 mill not 109 or w.e. it is

[sammy]

Clemens is great but maybe a great bat would have fit the bill better.

[Gene the PIG]

Yup, he's been terrible at spending money. I mean, getting to the NLCS and World Series last year was just horrid.

What owners in baseball spend their money better?

:rolleyes:

Oh, so it's like that? Okay ... anyone NOT on this list.

World Series Facts


Teams that have never won a World Series:

Brooklyn Robins,
Colorado Rockies,
Houston Astros,
Milwaukee Brewers,
Montreal Expos,
Seattle Mariners,
Tampa Bay Devil Rays,
Texas Rangers,
San Diego Padres,
San Francisco Giants,
Seattle Pilots,
St. Louis Browns.


Hey look, it's MadMax! :rolleyes:

http://www.condomania.com/images/H-BGC_2_dt.jpg

[Ric]

even that at the end of the season if Bags dosent play a game Drayton gets that money back! i dont see bags playen this year so i look at are payroll at 88 mill not 109 or w.e. it is
not true. he owes bagwell the money. the insurance company has already made its ruling.

[Gene the PIG]

Clemens is great but maybe a great bat would have fit the bill better.

EXACTLY!

These guys have all the answers though. We're fine.


Diehard - I hope you're right. I'm with ya. Good post.

Now I await MadMax ... maybe he's gonna tell say something about my mother next? Cool. :rolleyes:

[MadMax]

Now I await MadMax ... maybe he's gonna tell say something about my mother next? Cool. :rolleyes:

1. i don't get the picture. help me out with that.

2. is your mother an astros fan?

3. the astros have been around for about 45 years. mclane has owned the team for about 12. are you putting the fact the astros haven't won a world series on drayton mclane??

4. did debbie downer really piss you off that bad?? :D seriously, the astros are making you miserable. stop watching. it can't be good for you.

[Gene the PIG]

The picture is that of a guy standing inside of a large condom. A dick.


Yeah, you're right. They kinda make me miserable. I should stop watching, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Take care, Max.

[Buck Turgidson]

dude, pot down the elitist tone. discussions may not always rise to a mensa level, but no one here is illiterate, and therefore, you do yourself no favors by portraying them as such. most of the rancor comes out of frustration; having a better handle on it doesn't make your stance, or you, superior.
Sorry, Ric, but there's nothing wrong with having a minimal tolerance for bull****. There's a whole bunch of great posters around here, and there's a whole bunch of great baseball talk we could be having, but it all gets drowned out in a cacophonous sea of repetitive "whaaaaaaaa".

Raise the bar.

[rrj_gamz]

The only reason the payroll is as high as it this year, is because for years the Astros have backloaded their contracts for years and this is the year when it all finally came due.

Exactly...We're not getting any return on Bagwells $$$ and frankly, none of guys the backloaded contracts are worth that kind of money...

[MadMax]

The picture is that of a guy standing inside of a large condom. A dick.
.

just wanted you to say it instead of hiding behind a picture.

[candlegreen]

*NEWSFLASH*

WELCOME TO SPORTS

that's the way it is - for every team, in every city, with every fan. so save us the "spoiled fan" bit.

our offense has SUCKED. for two freaking years. and you're trying to justify why the astros shouldn't make a move to get one of the premeire players in the league??? cute.

and did you not realize the money we have coming off the books next year? in the range of $45 MILLION? and you still give us this bullsh!t schpeil? what good is all this salary if it isn't going to bring a title??? they apparently have a clear opportunity to add the one thing we desperately need (a prime time bat), but are gonna hold off why again? because they think maybe, just maybe, one of the worst hitting teams in the majors the past 2 years can miraculously turn it around - again???

i'm sorry.... i just don't buy it. we may have a very high payroll, and i appreciate what drayton has done, but when almost 1/2 of that payroll is coming off next year using it as an excuse to not make this team much more competitive isn't gonna cut it.

45 million off the books and a big contract to be offered to Roy and hopefully money to spend on free agents. Salaries are still money, and a team can only hope to build something that can COMPETE for a playoff spot and hopefully win from there. There are about 30 ML teams and if only the title means something to you, then fans from one city will have to wait AT LEAST 30 years to be happy about anything. Worse hitting team, yes, but technically, the same team made the run last year and the Astros chose to stick with the team thinking that the young players could get better. So kudos to the White Sox trying to improve, but it could easily have backfired as well, losing Rowand and prospects of the future. The Astros chose to ride their young players that were performing at a high level last year, and money was spent there. So if the team struggled (together), then it's more likely the player's fault, and probably deserves more blame than the management that showed their faith in these players.

The other thing is, why does everyone assume that there's a DECENT deal here that could make this team that much better? Money is one topic, but guess what?... the good to great players are usually TAKEN by other teams. Everyone wants these prospects to be traded, and that's a very short-sighted assumption. No one mentioned what could happen after these $45 million gets off. Who are replacing these "star" players? If we traded our future for Tejada and he demands a trade after this season, then what?

As for the comment earlier, I was not based on one individual, so no, I did not get people messed up. My message earlier was for the general public's assertions for the most part. I don't always agree with what the management is doing, and I sure as heck want the Astros to improve. But to blame that as an excuse to say how Drayton is being tight with money is ridiculous. 106 million is 106 million, whether or not Bagwell's in it or not. You can't say because Bagwell's injured, then this roster is only worth 88 million. REGARDLESS of Bagwell's situation, Drayton pays 106 million THIS year, and that's more money than what almost anyone is spending. The Houston sports market is relatively small, and if the Astros have to rebuild one day, look for him to lose some money during those years due to less fans showing up. It's a sports team, but it's still a business and it's a lifestyle for one Drayton McLane. Money management is important, no matter how much you have. When you throw away millions EACH year for a chance to win, you could easily make a bad decision and go broke. He's been very generous in spending money that he does not HAVE to spend, but does it anyways. Roy's tractor, Roger's contract (trust me, his revenues does not exceed his contract), etc. It's still money spent and it's money that 95% of this BBS probably can't afford altogether. It's just ridiculous to bash on an owner because the team is underperforming.

Where's this supposive opportunity to add this prime time bat? I'm assuming you meant Tejada.... Unless there's clear evidence showing that the Astros turned down a DECENT deal for Tejada, I dont' see what all this fuss it about. And one more thing, the Astros are rated 4th in the second half in offense last year. What's there to show that the young hitters were not turning it around and could've went on with that? Everyone was high on Lane and Taveras to an extent and Berkman and Ensberg were bonafide hitters for the most part. Biggio seems ageless and Ausmus had a hot bat. Preston Wilson had potential to improve the club drastically and Pettitte was supposed to be solid along with Backe. Once again, the team underperformed up to this point. Stop making this about the owner.

[Ric]

Raise the bar.
hey, brospeh, i'm right there with ya. i don't believe mcclane is the center of evil, but i also don't think he's above reproach. i also don't want him or the organization resting on its laurels or trying to feed us a line of bull**** and asking us not to complain about the taste it leaves behind. molony's piece is as transparent as it is inaccurate.

i would prefer they come right out and say, "you know what? we'd love to add a bat. i thought i had a bat - jeff bagwell. but i don't. and i still have to pay him $19M, so my hands are somewhat tied. but i brought back clemens, dealt for huff and i was hoping for a better ROI from some of these other players... hopefully, they can right the ship." that, i could get behind and understand. i will not buy into - "we have the third highest payroll, so back off."

[MadMax]

i will not buy into - "we have the third highest payroll, so back off."

who is saying this??

[candlegreen]

hey, brospeh, i'm right there with ya. i don't believe mcclane is the center of evil, but i also don't think he's above reproach. i also don't want him or the organization resting on its laurels or trying to feed us a line of bull**** and asking us not to complain about the taste it leaves behind. molony's piece is as transparent as it is inaccurate.

i would prefer they come right out and say, "you know what? we'd love to add a bat. i thought i had a bat - jeff bagwell. but i don't. and i still have to pay him $19M, so my hands are somewhat tied. but i brought back clemens, dealt for huff and i was hoping for a better ROI from some of these other players... hopefully, they can right the ship." that, i could get behind and understand. i will not buy into - "we have the third highest payroll, so back off."

I agree for the most part, and I wish he'd stop talking about the payroll. I can assume that the payroll mentioning had to do with all the talks of him being tight with money, and that's bogus. I do believe that he does not want to spend any more money on this year and let the players decide this thing, and I actually agree with it. If we replace every player that struggled, we're going to end up with an overpaid AAA roster. At the same time, could you imagine the backlash if he came out and said; "nope, this is it. I'm not spending more money this year because that's beyond what I've agreed to. I think this team has what it takes to win, and this is all I can afford to pay for this year in a business sense."

[Ottomaton]

Things to count on:


The sky is blue.


The sun will rise in the morning and set in the evening.


People will find some way to complain about the Astros.

[Ric]

who is saying this??
the big man himself in the team's thinly veiled attempt to try and cut us off at the pass before the team lets the deadline come and go; aka jim moloney's piece from astros.com:
"We have a $106 million budget -- it's the third-highest in Major League Baseball. I hope that shows to all of our fans our commitment to winning."

[MadMax]

the big man himself in the team's thinly veiled attempt to try and cut us off at the pass before the team lets the deadline come and go; aka jim moloney's piece from astros.com:

i'm not reading it with the same tone you're reading it with..clearly.

[Buck Turgidson]

i would prefer they come right out and say, "you know what? we'd love to add a bat. i thought i had a bat - jeff bagwell. but i don't. and i still have to pay him $19M, so my hands are somewhat tied. but i brought back clemens, dealt for huff and i was hoping for a better ROI from some of these other players... hopefully, they can right the ship."
Purp has said as much, several times. Also said that Ensberg may end up being the "trading deadline acquisition" for the offense. I don't really have a problem with that, outside of the unlikely Tejada deal (and I'm not sure I believe any of the published reports on the players involved).

As far as them mentioning payroll - we've been told for years & years by the fans & pundits that the Stros will never, ever, ever win until they "spend money", and that "spending money" is some sort of foolproof guarantee, or somesuch. Well, lookee here, they're spending money, and they ain't winning. There's prolly a lesson in there somewhere, but the chorus has moved on to "spend more" or "spend it like I think you should". Tiresome.

Is their management perfect? Of course not. But I find it pretty hard to bitch about the Astros organizational model.

[NJRocket]

As a former major league whiner from the Beltran administration...let me just say that you are all right.

Incessant whining from you ingrates (did i just say that?) can be annoying. We do spend money and we make what seem to be good trades/signings (i.e Huff and Wilson) at the time they are made. I don't think we have the most "committed to winning" owner as compared to him worrying about the bottom line...BUT, he is FAR from the bottom of the barrell. He has put a competitive product out there for many years now...some by chance and some by adding guys like RJ and Beltran. He's like Sinatra...he does it his way...and if it works, so be it.

However, I can tell you as someone who lived in Met-Yankee country for 20 plus years that even the 200 million dollar Yankee fans whine. They whine that they don't add any good player on the market because they CAN afford it. same crap...different city. Its not just Astros fans....its everyone.

That being said, I have a question (not rhetorical...i really dont know the answer)....where were we in regards to a wild card spot at this tme last year?

[candlegreen]

Purp has said as much, several times. Also said that Ensberg may end up being the "trading deadline acquisition" for the offense. I don't really have a problem with that, outside of the unlikely Tejada deal (and I'm not sure I believe any of the published reports on the players involved).

As far as them mentioning payroll - we've been told for years & years by the fans & pundits that the Stros will never, ever, ever win until they "spend money", and that "spending money" is some sort of foolproof guarantee, or somesuch. Well, lookee here, they're spending money, and they ain't winning. There's prolly a lesson in there somewhere, but the chorus has moved on to "spend more" or "spend it like I think you should". Tiresome.

Is their management perfect? Of course not. But I find it pretty hard to bitch about the Astros organizational model.


Florida Marlins is the best example here, I guess.

[Blake]

Things to count on:


The sky is blue.


The sun will rise in the morning and set in the evening.


People will find some way to complain about the Astros.




Look, I am a huge fan. I have watched just about every game for the past 10 years...but there are many justifiable complaints about this team. I don't have a beef with Drayton. I just think we need an offensive boost, because clearly our offense is dogsh*t this season and is not improving.

[JunkyardDwg]

Same tired bulls**t...some people are never satisfied. So the payroll is 106 million, you can afford to spend 5 million more. And here's probably my favorite. Its not really 106 million because Bagwell's contract is 19 million so its really 85+

Fact: the payroll is a 100+ million dollars, the third highest in the leauge. You can spin it any way you want but at the end of the day it's still is 100+ Why should they spend more when the players they've spent on haven't delivered.

That being said, I have a question (not rhetorical...i really dont know the answer)....where were we in regards to a wild card spot at this tme last year?

On July 18th of last year, the 'Stros we're 6.5 games out. By July 26th, they were only 2. And by August first they had a one game lead. Right now they are 6 games back; off the pace of last year but still very much in contention, especially considering a winning streak of 4-6 games can cut that deficit in half. It also should be noted that by mid-September of last year, the team had fallen to 1.5 back again. There's a lot of baseball left. And this team IS NOT THIS BAD.

[trickywhiteguy]

not true. he owes bagwell the money. the insurance company has already made its ruling.

are you sure? im not doubting you becouse that is what i thought at first, but i heard on Baseball tonight a while back that if bags didnt play a game this season The Astros would be covred for it. but i realy dont know

[MadMax]

are you sure? im not doubting you becouse that is what i thought at first, but i heard on Baseball tonight a while back that if bags didnt play a game this season The Astros would be covred for it. but i realy dont know

i believe the astros have sued...is that right????

[Buck Turgidson]

i believe the astros have sued...is that right????
Yep. No news since the announcement: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060417&content_id=1405113&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[Ric]

Well, lookee here, they're spending money, and they ain't winning.
i'm not in any camp, really, unless there's a "what's best for the team" tent being set-up somewhere. drayton is free to spend however much he wants - $107M or $7M - it makes me no difference; i'll still be a fan and still go to the games. i've never whined about him and i've enjoyed his product very much. if he sells the team tomorrow, i'll have nothing but praise for him as an owner; i think he's far and away the best owner this city has ever had.

however, again, there IS a difference between spending $106M on the team, and spending $87M on the team and then trying to pawn it off as $106M. yes, as i've said in probably 4 posts now, $106M is $106M no matter how you choose to slice it.

but it's disingenuous to sell this as the "third highest payroll" in baseball when it is simply not the third highest payroll in baseball on the field where the team made sacrifices and cut corners to accomodate bagwell's salary. they didn't go out and sign expensive players; they swallowed an injured player's salary. and again, i'm OK with that. i'm not complaining that they did it; i'm complaining that they're inappropriately spinning it as a means to justify their course.

[candlegreen]

i'm not in any camp, really, unless there's a "what's best for the team" tent being set-up somewhere. drayton is free to spend however much he wants - $107M or $7M - it makes me no difference; i'll still be a fan and still go to the games. i've never whined about him and i've enjoyed his product very much. if he sells the team tomorrow, i'll have nothing but praise for him as an owner; i think he's far and away the best owner this city has ever had.

however, again, there IS a difference between spending $106M on the team, and spending $87M on the team and then trying to pawn it off as $106M. yes, as i've said in probably 4 posts now, $106M is $106M no matter how you choose to slice it.

but it's disingenuous to sell this as the "third highest payroll" in baseball when it is simply not the third highest payroll in baseball on the field where the team made sacrifices and cut corners to accomodate bagwell's salary. they didn't go out and sign expensive players; they swallowed an injured player's salary. and again, i'm OK with that. i'm not complaining that they did it; i'm complaining that they're inappropriately spinning it as a means to justify their course.

I agree, especially the part about Drayton trying to sell it. But in a PR standpoint and him as an owner, he has to sell it appropriately or there will be a backlash. The one thing that bothered me a little on your post is that our players were young players, and instead of going out and sign an expensive free agents, we've spent millions more keeping ours. Roger for half a year for a higher salary, Pettitte and Bagwell's end-loading contracts add to the payroll. I believe that the team's budget reached it's maximum before FA started, but the truth is there really weren't that many nice FAs to begin with that the Astros could've needed. Most of the FAs this year turned out to be pitchers (Burnett, Beckett getting traded, B.J. Ryan, Millwood's contract, and so on....) I think the Astros played within their budget. No offense, but for you to say that Bagwell's contract didn't really count towards the "team's" budget this year is to say that Bagwell was really worth what we paid him years before. What I mean is... assuming you sign someone for 5 million one year, 10 the next, 15 the third and 20 the fourth and the player gets injured the 4th year, people can't say the 20 didn't count, but the 5 is exactly what it was the first year when players like Bagwell were obviously "underpaid" early on in his career. It all evens out, in my opinion. Giving Bagwell this gauranteed contract is the risk we took because Drayton paid the big money.

[Major]

:rolleyes:

Oh, so it's like that? Okay ... anyone NOT on this list.

World Series Facts


Teams that have never won a World Series:

Brooklyn Robins,
Colorado Rockies,
Houston Astros,
Milwaukee Brewers,
Montreal Expos,
Seattle Mariners,
Tampa Bay Devil Rays,
Texas Rangers,
San Diego Padres,
San Francisco Giants,
Seattle Pilots,
St. Louis Browns.


So you think the Cubs are a smarter organization than the Astros, because they won a World Series a century ago? Awesome.

Nice way to avoid the question, but I'll ask it again: what *current* owners spend money better than the Astros?

[Major]

i would prefer they come right out and say, "you know what? we'd love to add a bat. i thought i had a bat - jeff bagwell. but i don't. and i still have to pay him $19M, so my hands are somewhat tied. but i brought back clemens, dealt for huff and i was hoping for a better ROI from some of these other players... hopefully, they can right the ship." that, i could get behind and understand. i will not buy into - "we have the third highest payroll, so back off."

Do you have any idea what the question being asked was that caused McLane to respond that? Do you think that would be useful to know before deciding what his intent was?

[Major]

As far as them mentioning payroll - we've been told for years & years by the fans & pundits that the Stros will never, ever, ever win until they "spend money", and that "spending money" is some sort of foolproof guarantee, or somesuch. Well, lookee here, they're spending money, and they ain't winning. There's prolly a lesson in there somewhere, but the chorus has moved on to "spend more" or "spend it like I think you should". Tiresome.


The best part of it is that if we hadn't signed Bagwell, Pettitte or Clemens at various points due to the high contract prices, everyone would have bitched that McLane was cheap. Now that he did, and didn't foresee that they might suck 3 or 7 years into a contract (or didn't have a choice but to give them the long deal), people bitch that he doesn't spend money wisely. Wouldn't it be great if we could predict everyone's injuries years in advance?

[geeimsobored]

A slight tangent, but I find it pretty weird that both the Astros and the White Sox could both be absent from this year's playoffs.

We're obviously in deep trouble as demonstrated before and the White Sox just got swept by the Twins who are tied with them for the Wild Card with the Yankees right behind them. The Sox pitching is a shell of its former self as Buehrle has just fallen apart, Vazquez is underachieving as usual, and even Contreras has lost 3 in a row.

I'm curious when the last time that happened was...

[gwayneco]

No he didn't. He simply stated that he wasn't going to take non-stop losses when he's been asked about it. Please find the whining.

He tries to act like he's some sort of martyr even after getting a new stadium. The attitude is annoying as hell.

[Major]

He tries to act like he's some sort of martyr even after getting a new stadium. The attitude is annoying as hell.

Do you have any quotes to back that up? Whatever sports reporter that was mentioned earlier says Drayton avoids talking about finances as much as possible.

[gwayneco]

You realize we were linked to players such as Tejada and Abreu in the offseason, right? Both of those players cost $10-$15MM per year.

Linked ain't inked. Close counts only in horsehoes and hand grenades. Besides, until proven otherwise, I am going to assume it was all for show.

[gwayneco]

Do you have any quotes to back that up? Whatever sports reporter that was mentioned earlier says Drayton avoids talking about finances as much as possible.

He tries to claim that because he raised payroll he hasn't made any money at MMP.

[Major]

Linked ain't inked. Close counts only in horsehoes and hand grenades. Besides, until proven otherwise, I am going to assume it was all for show.

Gotcha. So your assumption is the Astros waste their time talking to other clubs (not to mention annoy the clubs who are dealing with uninterested trading partners) to make fans think they are pursuing trades. Makes perfect sense.

Strange that you'd follow such a terrible organization with a terrible owner and a lying, fraudulent GM.

[Major]

He tries to claim that because he raised payroll he hasn't made any money at MMP.

Quotes please.

[gwayneco]

Please prove this absurd accusation.

The only whiners are the idiotic so-called fans who do nothing but bitch and moan despite being lucky enough to watch one of the most accomplished teams in MLB over the past decade.


I think he's a great owner, but anybody who doesn't have his head up Uncle Drayton's ass can recognize the whining. He whined about the Astrodome shortly after telling the Oilers it was a great facility. He whines that he really hasn't made any money at MMP. This site once had a SAVEOURROCKETS.COM site, maybe the powers that be can start a Saveuncledrayton.com to help this altruistic public servant avoid the poor house that Jeff "Scrooge" Bagwell is sending him to.

[gwayneco]

Gotcha. So your assumption is the Astros waste their time talking to other clubs (not to mention annoy the clubs who are dealing with uninterested trading partners) to make fans think they are pursuing trades. Makes perfect sense.

Strange that you'd follow such a terrible organization with a terrible owner and a lying, fraudulent GM.

Can you not read? I think he's a great owner, but I think all this Tejada talk was pure BS.

[gwayneco]

Quotes please.

It's based on an interview with Palillo from a couple of years ago, though if I wanted to I could probably find some quotes that said basically the same thing.

[Major]

Can you not read? I think he's a great owner, but I think all this Tejada talk was pure BS.

You said that you think it was intentional simply to appease fans - essentially, you're calling him and Purpura frauds for making up interest in a potential trade. How exactly is a fraudulent owner that lies to fans a good owner?

[Gene the PIG]

So you think the Cubs are a smarter organization than the Astros, because they won a World Series a century ago? Awesome.

Nice way to avoid the question, but I'll ask it again: what *current* owners spend money better than the Astros?

OK, Private ... if you want to get testicle about it, here are the current payrolls of every *current* MLB team. Go through this list, Pyle, & every team with a LOWER payroll & a BETTER record *currently* ... why, there's the answer that you so crave. :rolleyes:

Right off the bat, I'd say that the owner of the Tigers, & the owner of The Twins "spend their money better than Drayton."

1 New York Yankees $194,663,079
2 Boston Red Sox $120,099,824
3 Los Angeles Angels $103,472,000
4 Chicago White Sox $102,750,667
5 New York Mets $101,084,963
6 Los Angeles Dodgers $98,447,187
7 Chicago Cubs $94,424,499
8 Houston Astros $92,551,503
9 Atlanta Braves $90,156,876
10 San Francisco Giants $90,056,419
11 St. Louis Cardinals $88,891,371
12 Philadelphia Phillies $88,273,333
13 Seattle Mariners $87,959,833
14 Detroit Tigers $82,612,866
15 Baltimore Orioles $72,585,582
16 Toronto Blue Jays $71,915,000
17 San Diego Padres $69,896,141
18 Texas Rangers $68,228,662
19 Minnesota Twins $63,396,006
20 Washington Nationals $63,143,000
21 Oakland Athletics $62,243,079
22 Cincinnati Reds $60,909,519
23 Arizona Diamondbacks $59,684,226
24 Milwaukee Brewers $57,568,333
25 Cleveland Indians $56,031,500
26 Kansas City Royals $47,294,000
27 Pittsburgh Pirates $46,717,750
28 Colorado Rockies $41,233,000
29 Tampa Bay Devil Rays $35,417,967
30 Florida Marlins $14,998,500

I like Drayton, I don't even know why you're being such a fool about it ... you've spent ALL DAY defending our 47-53 record, & we're losing 4-1 *currently* :rolleyes:

All's I said is that he spends it in the wrong places sometimes. In fact, our hot start this year was WITHOUT Clemens. As soon as he came back, & Drayton gave him 22 million pro-rated, we tank.

Now, I like Clemens as much as you do, but you TRULY think that our offense is fine the way it is, & doesn't need a major improvement? That's a more valid question then watching you yak up & down about near misses.

Horseshoes & grenades, just like gwayneco said.

[Major]

OK, Private ... if you want to get testicle about it, here are the current payrolls of every *current* MLB team. Go through this list, Pyle, & every team with a LOWER payroll & a BETTER record *currently* ... why, there's the answer that you so crave. :rolleyes:

Right off the bat, I'd say that the owner of the Tigers, & the owner of The Twins "spend their money better than Drayton."


So the Tigers, who haven't made the playoffs in who knows how long, are better spenders because they are having one good season? I didn't realize money-spending was limited to a single year. Was the owner a moron last year and a genius this year? Was Drayton a really smart spender last year, but a moron this year?

The Twins are certainly great at efficient spending (Oakland also) - but they both have had far less success than the Astros over the past decade - neither has won a playoff series. Would you rather have been any of those franchises?

[Major]

Now, I like Clemens as much as you do, but you TRULY think that our offense is fine the way it is, & doesn't need a major improvement? That's a more valid question then watching you yak up & down about near misses.

From the very first page in this thread, I said:


Look, this team sucks right now, but it's not something that can be fixed with a trade. To win a World Series (or even make the playoffs), you have to have a good collection of talent (we do), and most of those guys have to perform to expectations with a few performing above expectations. Last year, the White Sox pitching staff performed well above expectations. For us, Ensberg, Ausmus (in the 2nd half), Petttitte, Clemens, Qualls, and Wheeler performed above expectations, and that took a good team and made it great.

If you look at this team right now, no one is performing above expectations except some part-time players (Burke, Lamb), who weren't even supposed to be starting. On the opposite side, most players are performing below expectations - Biggio, Ausmus, Everett, Ensberg, Wilson, Willy T, Oswalt, Pettitte, Qualls, Wheeler, Lidge. A trade doesn't solve anything. Unless these guys perform at least to what was reasonably expected, adding Tejada isn't going to make one bit of a difference. An extra bat won't make this team go from scoring 3 runs a game to 6 runs a game - it's just a matter of the current bats actually doing something.

[Gene the PIG]

I understand that The 'Stros have fielded a relatively competitive team for a while now, but it's about the windows of opportunity. Wouldn't you like to win it just once?

Thus far, zero titles. In the end, that means the same thing as finishing in last place every stinking year.


We have the opportunity to improve ourselves with offense. Sure ya need to gut part of the farm system, but what else can you do TO WIN A TITLE NOW!? If you're content to go from WS runner-up to finishing below .500, that's up to you. I'm not. As a lifelong fan, I'd like to see ALL of the eggs go into one basket RIGHT effing now.

Look at The Marlins. They were invented in what year? I'm not even sure. Wasn't that long ago ... Sometime in the 90's .. TWO TITLES!

Every person on this board would sell their soul to the great beast himself for two titles in less than 10 years, & girl you know it's true!

[Gene the PIG]

& it's a different age in sports. We all know that. It IS proven that you can buy a WS.

The already talked about Marlins being an example. The Yankees always buy wins. Their 90's titles prove that.

The Mets, the Tigers - Outhouse to the penthouse in no time.

[Major]

I understand that The 'Stros have fielded a relatively competitive team for a while now, but it's about the windows of opportunity. Wouldn't you like to win it just once?


That's not determined by payroll. Smart spending gets you to the playoffs. Being on a hot streak and a little bit of luck gets you a title.


Thus far, zero titles. In the end, that means the same thing as finishing in last place every stinking year.


Not for me. I've had a blast as a fan the last two years. I wouldn't have had nearly as much fun if I were a fan of the Pirates. And since the whole point of sports is having fun, I think there's a huge difference in being competitive as opposed to being dead last.


We have the opportunity to improve ourselves with offense. Sure ya need to gut part of the farm system, but what else can you do TO WIN A TITLE NOW!?


Of course, the same could have been said last year, and we could have "gutted" Burke and others. Or the previous year, and we could have gutted some of the 5 or 6 rookies that were critical to last year's run to the World Series. Adding a bat fixes nothing if none of the current players perform to expectations. The beauty of this franchise is there's not a "window of opportunity". By not "going for broke" all the time, they've been good for a decade and should continue to be. Next year, they have tons of good young talent plus $30+ MM in payroll to get free agents.


If you're content to go from WS runner-up to finishing below .500, that's up to you. I'm not. As a lifelong fan, I'd like to see ALL of the eggs go into one basket RIGHT effing now.


And what happens if we don't win it all, which is the most likely scenario? Even with an extra bat, or even two bats, the AL teams are substantially better. We didn't win it last year with a dominant Oswalt, Pettitte, Wheeler, Qualls, and Lidge. What makes you think we would with an extra bat but none of those five doing well?


Look at The Marlins. They were invented in what year? I'm not even sure. Wasn't that long ago ... Sometime in the 90's .. TWO TITLES!

Every person on this board would sell their soul to the great beast himself for two titles in less than 10 years, & girl you know it's true!

I wouldn't want to be the Marlins. I know many others wouldn't. Part of sports is following your team and the players. If they gut the team after winning a title, what's the point? Would you enjoy watching your team go 62-100 every other year? I would be bored out of my mind most years following that team.

[Major]

& it's a different age in sports. We all know that. It IS proven that you can buy a WS.

The already talked about Marlins being an example. The Yankees always buy wins. Their 90's titles prove that.

The Mets, the Tigers - Outhouse to the penthouse in no time.

The Yankees in the 90's didn't buy their titles. They were mostly homegrown talent and their payroll at the time of those titles was really not that high. When they started adding all the free agents with Mussina, Giambi, A-Rod, Kevin Brown, etc, and dumped players like Tino Martinez, they stopped winning it all.

The Mets & Tigers haven't won any titles. The Marlins bought their first title - but they also got lucky in several games in the playoffs. The 2nd Marlins title was quite the cheap, low-budget team with lots of young players.

[Gene the PIG]

Fair enough, Major.


For tonight at least, let's let bygones be bygones because holy crap, we're WINNING! The offense is exploding!


I'll buy you a beer if we hold on & win. ;) :D

[JunkyardDwg]

& it's a different age in sports. We all know that. It IS proven that you can buy a WS.

The already talked about Marlins being an example. The Yankees always buy wins. Their 90's titles prove that.

The Mets, the Tigers - Outhouse to the penthouse in no time.

It could be proven just as easily that you can't buy a WS...see the Yankees since they lost to the D'Backs.

[Major]

For tonight at least, let's let bygones be bygones because holy crap, we're WINNING! The offense is exploding!


Sounds good! :)

[Gene the PIG]

Yeah, but they're in it EVERY year, & to *some people it seems, that's good enough. :confused:

*see this entire thread


Every person likes to see their team make trades & sign dudes. We're all on the same page pretty much, just frustrated in different ways.


The best remedy? A run.

I'd take one abouts now. The Twins are 34-6 since June 2. :eek: