[SI.com] Astros Offer Preston Wilson to Yankees

[countingcrow]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/24/bowden/1.html

[countingcrow]

Really no details as to who the Astros asked for in return, but this does validate that the Astros are willing to move an outfielder to open up some more playing time for Luke Scott.

[The Cat]

Please, please, please let this happen.

There's no player more overvalued by Astros fans than Preston. If we could sell high based on his flukish RISP numbers, acquire a couple of quality prospects and put a better hitter out there in his place (Ensberg if healthy, Scott if not), that would help this team immensely. It also would add additional payroll flexibility if we're serious about trying to make a move for Tejada or someone like that.

Preston's gone after this season anyway - there's no way we'll pick up the option. He's been a disappointment on the field. There are viable alternatives if we lose him (likely better alternatives). If Purpura can pull this off and get anything useful in return, he'll have earned a lot of respect from me.

[rrj_gamz]

Preston and Endsberg for A-Rod, sign me up...

[Hakeem's Dream]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/24/bowden/1.html
I think it would be good for Preston to go to NY. He's nearing the end of his career and what a way to go out than to play with the Yankees. NO TRADING MO FOLKS!!! I wonder if they would throw Willy T into that package and who would they be sending us?

[Uprising]

I found this part of the article interesting too:

"The San Diego Padres are working overtime to line up a third baseman. The trade bait is fine setup reliever Scott Linebrink, and their best options appear to be either Wilson Betemit or the diminishing Morgan Ensberg, with some Padres people apparently preferring the more versatile Betemit.

How far has Ensberg fallen, only a year after finishing fourth in NL MVP voting? Before going on the disabled list with what was reported to be a shoulder contusion, Ensberg, who still had 19 home runs, had hit .157 with only two home runs in the preceding 27 games. The club has performed two MRIs and found nothing amiss, spawning league speculation that the problem is partly mechanical or mental.

Astros GM Tim Purpura was asked about the suspicion that more than just his shoulder is bothering Ensberg, and Purpura pointed out that the slump "coincided with the injury.'' And Purpura added, "The positive thing is there's no structural damage. He reports that he's still sore. You've got to listen to what your players tell you.'' "

[rikesh316]

Preston is one of the better Astros hitters but if you could trade him, I am all for it because I think Scott could be better than him.

[JunkyardDwg]

I found this part of the article interesting too:

"The San Diego Padres are working overtime to line up a third baseman. The trade bait is fine setup reliever Scott Linebrink, and their best options appear to be either Wilson Betemit or the diminishing Morgan Ensberg, with some Padres people apparently preferring the more versatile Betemit.

How far has Ensberg fallen, only a year after finishing fourth in NL MVP voting? Before going on the disabled list with what was reported to be a shoulder contusion, Ensberg, who still had 19 home runs, had hit .157 with only two home runs in the preceding 27 games. The club has performed two MRIs and found nothing amiss, spawning league speculation that the problem is partly mechanical or mental.

Astros GM Tim Purpura was asked about the suspicion that more than just his shoulder is bothering Ensberg, and Purpura pointed out that the slump "coincided with the injury.'' And Purpura added, "The positive thing is there's no structural damage. He reports that he's still sore. You've got to listen to what your players tell you.'' "

Good...we should keep Ensberg anyways so he can shut the naysayers up when his shoulder fully heals and he comes back around. Just because he's had two negative MRIs doesn't mean he isn't hurt and that shoulder isn't affecting his swing.

While I like Wilson, I think it would be good to move him and give Scott more of a chance, while keeping our other strong hitters in the lineup (Burke and Lamb), plus it leaves the possibility open of Lane returning again if he figures it out or signing a better bat in the ofseason. It's a move that might not necessarily improve (depending on Scott) the team in the short-term (but probably longterm) but definitely won't hurt.

[Groogrux]

There's no player more overvalued by Astros fans than Preston.

Um, who exactly has "overvalued" Preston Wilson?

[Drewdog]

Wasnt this the same Luke Scott that tore it up in spring training, earned a starting OF position opening day - only to fail miserably at the ML level?

Id keep Preston Wilson folks.

[Hakeem's Dream]

Good...we should keep Ensberg anyways so he can shut the naysayers up when his shoulder fully heals and he comes back around. Just because he's had two negative MRIs doesn't mean he isn't hurt and that shoulder isn't affecting his swing.

While I like Wilson, I think it would be good to move him and give Scott more of a chance, while keeping our other strong hitters in the lineup (Burke and Lamb), plus it leaves the possibility open of Lane returning again if he figures it out or signing a better bat in the ofseason. It's a move that might not necessarily improve (depending on Scott) the team in the short-term (but probably longterm) but definitely won't hurt.
I am with you 100%. You are a smart JYD.

[Hakeem's Dream]

Wasnt this the same Luke Scott that tore it up in spring training, earned a starting OF position opening day - only to fail miserably at the ML level?

Id keep Preston Wilson folks.
i would love for him to stay but i think if given the opportunity to play for the yanks he would be all over it.

[Major]

When Ensberg comes back, Huff needs a place to play. Move Wilson and you solve that.

[Another Brother]

Figures.

[Hakeem's Dream]

When Ensberg comes back, Huff needs a place to play. Move Wilson and you solve that.
True, but what with Luke Scott?

[Ra Ooh La La]

Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.

[msn]

Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.
stupid post.

[thacabbage]

Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.
You're right, the fact that they are both allegedly being shopped has nothing to do with the fact that they both suck.

[Hakeem's Dream]

Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.
Oh come on, get real.

[SWTsig]

Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.

you're an idiot.

[A-Train]

Figures.

Don't worry, AB, I'm sure the Astros will ask for a black prospect in return. The last thing the Astros need is more bad press from being the "team without a black guy" again.

Besides, don't all the black guys playing for the Texans and Rockets kind of balance out the Astros whiteness? ;)

[Ra Ooh La La]

I am in fact being harsh, fellas. But, c'mon. I'm just saying what every other minority baseball fan in the world is saying . . .

The Astros Organization doesn't cultivate good minority ball players. They just don't. The mere fact that you can actually keep count of the minorities on our team does not speak well. I'm not being bitter about it. I'm just being honest. It's sad because every other quality team in the league has significant minority impact. They just do.

:) Please don't hate the messenger!

[Ra Ooh La La]

you're an idiot.

Classy :)

[bobrek]

...It's sad because every other quality team in the league has significant minority impact. They just do....



Depends upon what you mean by "significant". Do you realize that at the beginning of spring training there were only 76 blacks in all of baseball on the 40 man rosters?

[Major]

While not intentional, it would be funny to see. With a few minor changes, the entire starting roster & pitching staff could be white:

Starting Lineup:

C - Ausmus
Inf - Lamb, Biggio, Everett, Ensberg
Out - Berkman, Huff, Burke

Starters - Clemens, Pettitte, Oswalt, Burke, Buchholz
Bullpen - Springer, Miller, Borkowski, Qualls, Wheeler, Lidge

(I have no idea where Albers is from)

I wonder when the last time that happened was.

[bobrek]

While not intentional, it would be funny to see. With a few minor changes, the entire starting roster & pitching staff could be white:

Starting Lineup:

C - Ausmus
Inf - Lamb, Biggio, Everett, Ensberg
Out - Berkman, Huff, Burke

Starters - Clemens, Pettitte, Oswalt, Burke, Buchholz
Bullpen - Springer, Miller, Borkowski, Qualls, Wheeler, Lidge

(I have no idea where Albers is from)

I wonder when the last time that happened was.

University of Texas Longhorns football team - 1969 :) .

[Rileydog]

God forbid that a team make personnel decisions based on performance.

[Austin70]

Burke is pitching now? :D

[Blake]

I am in fact being harsh, fellas. But, c'mon. I'm just saying what every other minority baseball fan in the world is saying . . .

The Astros Organization doesn't cultivate good minority ball players. They just don't. The mere fact that you can actually keep count of the minorities on our team does not speak well. I'm not being bitter about it. I'm just being honest. It's sad because every other quality team in the league has significant minority impact. They just do.

:) Please don't hate the messenger!

Yeah, because we really need to base our lineup on Affirmative Action and not on actual talent.

I agree that we don't have many minority ballplayers, but what do you have to say about how we've been trying to acquire Tejada???

[cwebbster]

If they are pursuing Tejada, thats an assanine assumption, if I am not blind, he is a hispanic man!! What about Beltran, they tried to keep him......Octavio Dotel, Derek Bell, Richard Hidalgo. If I am not mistaken, they weren't white, and were here a long time. Nieve was on the roster for a good while, as well as crappy Wandy. The Astros are not supremacists......lets get the whiners off this board.....

[Major]

Burke is pitching now? :D

Ah crap, the killer bees get me confused! :D

[Ra Ooh La La]

Depends upon what you mean by "significant". Do you realize that at the beginning of spring training there were only 76 blacks in all of baseball on the 40 man rosters?

Who said anything about blacks? Domincans, Puetro Ricans, Cubans, Japanese, Korean, Chinese. Those are the minorities of which I'm talking.

This is no "angry black man" opinion here :). I'm just a baseball fan wanting to see my team do well. And when the rest of the league is bringing in all-star talent from overseas and across the pond or wherever, I'm disturbed by my own organization's lack of progress or lack of dedication to compete in the same.

I'm talking about winning. Just reasonably, if the all-star games and festivities and the top teams in baseball demonstrate such a specturm of racially diversified talent, it stands to make perfect sense that our team would be structured similarly.

[Major]

I'm talking about winning. Just reasonably, if the all-star games and festivities and the top teams in baseball demonstrate such a specturm of racially diversified talent, it stands to make perfect sense that our team would be structured similarly.

And yet, our team of nearly-all-whities made the World Series last year. Shouldn't other teams should try to emulate us? :)

[NJRocket]

God forbid that a team make personnel decisions based on performance.

Ditto

[Hakeem's Dream]

I am in fact being harsh, fellas. But, c'mon. I'm just saying what every other minority baseball fan in the world is saying . . .

The Astros Organization doesn't cultivate good minority ball players. They just don't. The mere fact that you can actually keep count of the minorities on our team does not speak well. I'm not being bitter about it. I'm just being honest. It's sad because every other quality team in the league has significant minority impact. They just do.

:) Please don't hate the messenger!
Then all those people are effin idiots. They can kiss my Astros loving and equal opportunity dating a*s!

[NJRocket]

, I'm disturbed by my own organization's lack of progress or lack of dedication to compete in the same.

.


What franchise do you think revolutionized taking players out of venezuela and other south american countries?????

[Ra Ooh La La]

Yeah, because we really need to base our lineup on Affirmative Action and not on actual talent.

I agree that we don't have many minority ballplayers, but what do you have to say about how we've been trying to acquire Tejada???

Please forgive me for the misunderstanding. In no way am I in favor of affirmative action, and I consider myself quite a conservative individual.

The Preston Wilson trade potential was just an opportunity to discuss our organization's . . . operations (if you will). While I don't believe Wilson is the problem with our club (having pitchers batting 7th, 8th, and 9th is a start), I'm not especially attached to him one way or another.

If we land Tejada, I will be pleasantly shocked. I will be even more shocked if he does well. And I will be shocked to the nth degree if he actually plays here for a long while. I just don't get the feeling from the current executive side of our organization that they're very interested in cultivating and embracing and maintaining minority talent (I am anxiously and sincerely hoping they prove me wrong).

[Ra Ooh La La]

What franchise do you think revolutionized taking players out of venezuela and other south american countries?????

You've hit on an absolutely beautiful thing here, NJ. This is exactly why it's so disappointing with regard to where we are today with our current executive decision-makers. With us having been the revolutionaries . . . we should still be the torch-bearers. We should definitely not be lagging behind.

[NJRocket]

You've hit on an absolutely beautiful thing here, NJ. This is exactly why it's so disappointing with regard to where we are today with our current executive decision-makers. With us having been the revolutionaries . . . we should still be the torch-bearers. We should definitely not be lagging behind.

We arent the torch bearers because we cant go down there like the Yankees or mets and throw our checkbooks at these guys. In the past, it was enough for these guys to sign a humble, yet lucrative deal with a good organization (such as us) and get the opportunity to escape poverty and play in the bigs.

Nowadays, you can compare those south american baseball academies to a college recruiting camp where the recruiters can pay them to attend their schools...the schools being the major market teams.

Granted we DO spend money down there and have good scouting, but its a lot more competitive now than it was when we started getting guys like Abreu, Santana etc out of Ven.....that we dont acquire a lot of these guys has more to do w/ competition than it does with not wanting them on our roster

[JunkyardDwg]

What franchise do you think revolutionized taking players out of venezuela and other south american countries?????

I was gonna say the exact same thing.

On the 40 man roster the Astros currently have around 12 minority players...by comparison the World Champion WS have 14, just two more. If you want to claim there is a lack of minority players within the Astros organization fine, but don't act like its a problem just for this team.

[jopatmc]

If we are going to "cleanse" the roster, we should trade Lidge and be cleansed of former steroid users that can't perform off the juice. (I threw in that last part so you can't flame me about Roger.)

[bigtexxx]

This is no "angry black man" opinion here :). I'm just a baseball fan wanting to see my team do well. And when the rest of the league is bringing in all-star talent from overseas and across the pond or wherever, I'm disturbed by my own organization's lack of progress or lack of dedication to compete in the same.

I'm talking about winning.

Well, we did win the National League last year with no black guys.

[Groogrux]

Well, we did win the National League last year with no black guys.

I think you're greatly under-valuing the contribution of one Charles Gipson.

[Ra Ooh La La]

I was gonna say the exact same thing.

On the 40 man roster the Astros currently have around 12 minority players...by comparison the World Champion WS have 14, just two more. If you want to claim there is a lack of minority players within the Astros organization fine, but don't act like its a problem just for this team.

This is no affirmative action conversation. I'm not simply talking about minority players within the organization. And again, though I don't believe Preston is the problem, I'm not especially attached to him.

The main point of my posting was an observation that the Stros do not generally cultivate impact minority players. To qualify this further, though we may have 12 minorities on our 40-Man, I believe we have 3 active. And in comparison to the White Sox, well, I know they have more than 3 active.

I'm usually the last person to lean towards a racial understanding or observation about anything. But again, when you look across the landscape of the league and see such a rainbow of talent at the top, it's just disappointing to see our team not aggressively resolved to embracing minority talent from wherever. This isn't a black thing, a white thing, or a brown thing (If there's talent to be had in Europe, we should be all over it too). This is about baseball, or depending on who you are, it's a green ($) thing.

My goal isn't to make people feel bad or feel insecure or get all indignant. I'm just being honest. I'm not trying to be hard and controversial. I'm just being sincere. This is just the perspective of one of the growing minority conservatives.

[Ra Ooh La La]

Well, we did win the National League last year with no black guys.

I believe Dominicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc. are also minorities.

[msn]

My goal isn't to make people feel bad or feel insecure or get all indignant. I'm just being honest. I'm not trying to be hard and controversial. I'm just being sincere. This is just the perspective of one of the growing minority conservatives.
On the political side, I'm glad there is a growing minority conservative population. But before I get banned to the D&D...

I honestly believe if you were closer to the Astros' operations you wouldn't have any impressions of any exclusion or ignoring of any people groups. Like someone else said, everything they've done is based purely on performance and making the team better.

[Major]

I'm not trying to be hard and controversial. I'm just being sincere.

Really?


Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.

[bobrek]

Who said anything about blacks? Domincans, Puetro Ricans, Cubans, Japanese, Korean, Chinese. Those are the minorities of which I'm talking.

This is no "angry black man" opinion here :). I'm just a baseball fan wanting to see my team do well...

Then you should be tremendously satisfied. For most of the past 12 years, the Astros have been in playoff competition into the month of September. In addition, they have been far more successful than most teams (win/loss wise) over those 12 years. They have been doing well.

They also have embraced minority players (in particular, Latinos) over that time frame. They signed Hidalgo to a huge contract well before they had to. They made a ridiculously large contract offer to Beltran. They awarded starting rotation slots to Rodriguez and Astacio last year and each contributed to their success. When Wagner walked, they handed the closers job to Dotel who they acquired in a trade for Hampton.

They traded Robertson for Taveras, had him play one AA season and then he was their starting center fielder last year and much of this season. He has been essentially benched because of his performance, not his color.

What do you want the Astros to do - sign/acquire minorities simply for the sake of signing/acquiring minorities? The team has shown in the past that they will make acquisitions if they will improve the club and are reasonable. They don't care if their names are Beltran, Astacio, Johnson or Huff. It's hard to argue with their regular season success.

[geeimsobored]

Who said anything about blacks? Domincans, Puetro Ricans, Cubans, Japanese, Korean, Chinese. Those are the minorities of which I'm talking.

This is no "angry black man" opinion here :). I'm just a baseball fan wanting to see my team do well. And when the rest of the league is bringing in all-star talent from overseas and across the pond or wherever, I'm disturbed by my own organization's lack of progress or lack of dedication to compete in the same.

I'm talking about winning. Just reasonably, if the all-star games and festivities and the top teams in baseball demonstrate such a specturm of racially diversified talent, it stands to make perfect sense that our team would be structured similarly.

I'll give you that the Astros flat out don't try to scout the Asian baseball leagues. That's not a decision out of spite for Asians and their ability but rather a choice to focus more on Latin America.

The Astros were one of the first if not the first baseball team to establish an academy in the Dominican Republic and were one of the first teams to actively recruit and bring over talent from there. The same goes with bringing in talent from the rest of Latin America. The Astros were always leaders in that area. In fact a lot of the baseball academies in Latin America today are copies of a successful model developed by the Astros years ago.

As for lack of African Americans on this team, that's a problem throughout baseball, not just here. And that's a completely different debate. It's not that the Astros are neglecting African Americans but rather African American participation in baseball across the board has just fallen off dramatically.

I suppose your only legitimate point in my mind is about Asian participation in the Astros but that's just a personel issue. The Seattle Mariners are really big into scouting in Asia but don't spend nearly as much on Latin America. It's just a choice of resources because lets face it, baseball teams are limited in terms of what they can do.

[Ra Ooh La La]

What do you want the Astros to do - sign/acquire minorities simply for the sake of signing/acquiring minorities?

This is far from what I want. Nobody wants token acquisitions.

I think it would simply be nice to see our team reflect today's baseball when it comes to personnel from top to bottom. I admit, I know very little about the organization administration. But I tend to think the sucess of any corporation's effective acquisition and developement of any recruited individuals from wherever thay may be starts at the top of the organization and filters down.

Maybe I'm just crazy, guys. And I apologize if I actually am. I just find the prospects of an all-white baseball team in this day and age quite disconcerting.

I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me. That it could even be a realized possiblity is quite unbelievable to me. Again though, maybe I'm just crazy.

[msn]

I just find the prospects of an all-white baseball team in this day and age quite disconcerting.
Baseball does, too. Ever heard of the RBI foundation?

I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me.
Anything is possible. If that doesn't register with you, how about the Astros' current heavy investment in Latin America? Just because the latest prospects aren't working out on the ML level doesn't invalidate the investment.

Think about the competition for the world's best athletes: in Latin America there is fútbol; in the USA there is football and basketball. In both cases, the competition is beating out baseball for the best athletes (especially in the US).

[Another Brother]

This is far from what I want. Nobody wants token acquisitions.

I think it would simply be nice to see our team reflect today's baseball when it comes to personnel from top to bottom. I admit, I know very little about the organization administration. But I tend to think the sucess of any corporation's effective acquisition and developement of any recruited individuals from wherever thay may be starts at the top of the organization and filters down.

Maybe I'm just crazy, guys. And I apologize if I actually am. I just find the prospects of an all-white baseball team in this day and age quite disconcerting.

I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me. That it could even be a realized possiblity is quite unbelievable to me. Again though, maybe I'm just crazy.


Nobody cares. You're the problem.

Believe me.

[Burzmali]

This is far from what I want. Nobody wants token acquisitions.

I think it would simply be nice to see our team reflect today's baseball when it comes to personnel from top to bottom. I admit, I know very little about the organization administration. But I tend to think the sucess of any corporation's effective acquisition and developement of any recruited individuals from wherever thay may be starts at the top of the organization and filters down.

Maybe I'm just crazy, guys. And I apologize if I actually am. I just find the prospects of an all-white baseball team in this day and age quite disconcerting.

I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me. That it could even be a realized possiblity is quite unbelievable to me. Again though, maybe I'm just crazy.


I just find the prospects of mostly or all-black basketball teams in this day and age quite disconcerting. I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me.

[candlegreen]

This is just ridiculous. Let's just start here: who on our minor league roster (12 is not the number, btw) would you replace to start over our current starting lineups (which fluctuates every day). Palmeiro is not the answer, but he gets to pinch hit literally every day lately. Taveras was a spot starter time and again but could not really provide offense. We offered a 7 year contract to Beltran, but it's not our fault that he wanted more than 105 million.

Let's see, Matsui, Morales, Ichiro, Park, etc. Have you SEEN the size of their contracts?!?? First of all, logistically, the Astros would have little to no chance to land the asian players based on their preference in the coasts. Second, these players are generally over-valued by people such as the Yankees, Dodgers, Mariners, etc. (see Hideki Irabu, Chan-Ho Park, Kaz Matsui, etc.) Then Hidalgo, who was also offered a decent contract, got cold, but of course, that's the Astros's fault because Hidalgo's not white. I do remember us having this white guy named Mike Hampton... but he was traded, but of course, that had nothing to do with his race, it's just because the Astros couldn't sign him back (to which I agree, actually). Remember who we got back in that trade? I believe Roger Cedeno and Octavio Dotel was part of that deal we got with the Mets. I think Uncle Drayton didn't spend enough money on his scouts and he thought that they were white....

Our long term players are Biggio and Bagwell, who were all-stars and did NOT leave for the money, so I'm sorry that 2 of our infielders for a decade+ were filled with white guys. Julio Lugo was let go in favor for Everett, who in that time, was a prospect, but even then, Everett split a lot of time with Jose Vizcaino. Add that as another blunder to the Astros scouting report. When Jeff Kent is available, we got him because he's white, and that gave the Astros an excuse to play Biggio as a white outfielder. The Astros should be ashamed of themselves for developing Mitch Melusky to the point where a white player will replace a white player in Brad Ausmus, who was, throughout his time here, splitting time with Tony Eusebio, Raul Chavez, and such. It is also the Astros spending more money developing the likes of Berkman so that he'd take another spot, and moreso, it's the Astros who decided to pull the "ethnic cleansing" trade of Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, etc. for Randy Johnson. I'm sure that cried "ethnic cleansing" like nothing else.

Now, let's head to the pitching. Wagner was not our best option, but he's white, so Dotel sits. Heck, Dotel was traded to cleanse our 40 man rotation... oops, Astros screwed up again, we got Beltran. Oswalt, and Wade Miller was our white man plan, because Jose Lima's contract was just so we can trade him for David Weathers. Then, we did the unthinkable and acquired Pettitte and Clemens because that will leave only 1 spot left in the rotation, which we can cleverly award early to Tim Redding so the likes of Ezekiel Astacio and Wandy Rodriguez can stay in the minors as trade bait.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. I just think that it's ridiculous that this even has to be brought up. The reasons for any of these trades were MORE than obvious, yet it has to be this way. For every Carl Everett for Adam Everett trade, or Abreu being let go, or Derek Bell being gone, the Astros has ALWAYS given minorities a chance, and in certain instances, entrusted them with large contracts (Lima, Dotel, Beltran, etc etc etc.), yet the Astros are always being seen as a racial team because we have Biggio, Bagwell, Berkman, Lidge, Oswalt, Clemens, Pettite, etc who are just too good of players to replace and just happens to like it in Houston even though they're white? I'll end it here, it's time to go home.

[Ra Ooh La La]

The Astros were one of the first if not the first baseball team to establish an academy in the Dominican Republic and were one of the first teams to actively recruit and bring over talent from there. The same goes with bringing in talent from the rest of Latin America. The Astros were always leaders in that area. In fact a lot of the baseball academies in Latin America today are copies of a successful model developed by the Astros years ago.

I'm totally in your corner on this. I celebrate the origination aspect of our club as well. I'm not doubting this at all. The only thing I'm commenting on is the perception of our team on the field. We just don't look like a team who is still on the leading edge of Latin American developement and recruiting.

[Rox Addict]

Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.

There somebody finally said it... :D My uncle always says ( so get mad at him not me ) that the Astros problem is that they do not have enough Cans on their team so they will never win a World Series.. :( Oh, what are Cans ?
Puerto riCANS, D. RepubliCANS, MexiCANS, AfriCANS....you catch my drift... :D He is an older man so he still has that mentality.. I can hear him right now..." Did you see those stinkin Astros lose again..I told you they can't win without any Cans !!!" He was even mad when they sent Wandy down ! :D

[bigtexxx]

I just find the prospects of mostly or all-black basketball teams in this day and age quite disconcerting. I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me.

LOL seriously. Especially when our all black team USA keeps getting beat by white teams from Europe and Argentina in international play! We need more white people! :cool:

[The Cat]

Um, who exactly has "overvalued" Preston Wilson?

Well, for one example, there have been numerous posters in these and other forums in recent weeks who have suggested moving Wilson to center and Huff to left to accomodate Ensberg when he returns. I can't think of a single thing that Wilson has done better than Burke... yet people refer to him as the second-most reliable hitter on our team and many have discussed sending a much better hitter (Burke) to the bench in his favor.

Furthermore, when Ensberg returns, there's been talk of either using Ensberg as a super-sub or returning Lamb to his bench role... but very little talk if any of moving Wilson to the fourth OF role. I don't understand what Preston's done to distinguish himself from Ensberg and Lamb in some fans' eyes... if anything, to me, he's distinguished himself in a negative way from those two.

[The Cat]

Wasnt this the same Luke Scott that tore it up in spring training, earned a starting OF position opening day - only to fail miserably at the ML level?

Id keep Preston Wilson folks.

You can't fail miserably when the sample size is as small as 40 at-bats. Way. way. way. too small of a sample size.

Furthermore, Scott wouldn't be starting long-term. Long-term, you'd have Ensberg at 3B, Huff at LF, Berkman at RF and Lamb at 1B. Scott would be the fourth OF supersub.

[Rox Addict]

Who won the World Games ? was it the Japanese ? They wooped U.S.A.'s A.. ;)

[bigtexxx]

Who won the World Games ? was it the Japanese ? They wooped U.S.A.'s A.. ;)

Not sure if you're being serious or not, but we actually beat Japan. We did manage to finish in last place in North America, though, with losses to Canada and Mexico (...and Korea, but they're not in NA).

[couple of d's]

maybe they should get jessie jackson and quanell x on the situation. look, i dont know anybody in the astros organization, but if they are trying to get rid of preston wilson i seriously doubt its cause hes black. he has been a major dissapointment and why not get some good prospects for him if you can.

[Ra Ooh La La]

I just find the prospects of mostly or all-black basketball teams in this day and age quite disconcerting. I just don't see how it's possible in this era with the talent that is available all over the world. It just doesn't register for me.

It's cute, but not quite accurate.

Simply watching this year's baseball all-star game (every year's all-star game) would reveal that minorities have an enormous impact in major league baseball. Most of the best teams in the league have significant minority presence.

The inverse cannot necessarily be said of basketball. It is quite unique and special for a non-black player to become a superstar in basketball, if for no other reason than because of the the street-cred and hip-hop culture that is so attached to basketball today.

And to qualify it further, I would in fact be quite suspicious of any NBA basketball team that had all-black athletes.

[Major]

If we can get past the idea of intentional racism or what not, I think there is a good point to be discussed here. Why are the Astros now so terrible at finding minor league talent outside of the US draft? When is the last time we had a really good Latin prospect come up?

Part of it is certainly a financial thing, but it's not like only big market teams are getting Latin American talent these days. Since you can get those guys into your system outside of the draft, it seems like a good investment as you can focus on players you want without having to worry whether they will be available when your draft position comes up.

[Ra Ooh La La]

LOL seriously. Especially when our all black team USA keeps getting beat by white teams from Europe and Argentina in international play! We need more white people! :cool:

Tongue-in-cheek maybe, but I think you're really a lot closer to being actually correct than you may think.

[msn]

Nobody cares. You're the problem.

Believe me.
This is just plain divisive and over-the-top. I'm willing to discuss this objectively and reasonably. If you really want to draw lines in the sand, then my position is "piss on everyone who plays the damn race card when it's obviously not an issue." But I don't want to act like that. So, I'll be nice if you'll be nice. And btw, I'm not your average white guy; my family came from a oft-maligned and ostracized area of Europe. We were the butt of the joke over there, and the butt of the joke over here.

Playing the race card over a damn game trivializes the very sad and very real places where racism is really happening. THAT is why discussions like this piss me off and piss me off fast. We're pissing our pants over a damn roster for a damn game when on the other side of the world people are spending their entire lives trying to wipe another people group off the face of the earth. That's why ooh la la's first post pissed me off--he said, "cleansing". Man, if you've if you've *seen* that crap first hand, you don't joke around about it or compare to something as trivial and freaking pointless as a damn game.

[wrath_of_khan]

So, what exactly are the Yankees offering that we would want? I can't think of who they might have that's available.

Besides A-Rod, of course. ;)

[Joe Joe]

When is the last time we had a really good Latin prospect come up?


Carlos Hernandez?

[geeimsobored]

I'm totally in your corner on this. I celebrate the origination aspect of our club as well. I'm not doubting this at all. The only thing I'm commenting on is the perception of our team on the field. We just don't look like a team who is still on the leading edge of Latin American developement and recruiting.

You should probably ignore a lot of the garbage posted on this thread because much of it isn't responsive and if anything only feeds your argument because in some ways they either answer with a non-responsive anecdote or analogy or just come up with a trite and corny comeback that does little to actually engage your argument.

That being said, I still don't agree with your position. The Astros have had a string of bad luck. Carlos Hernandez had an injury that he'll never recover from. Richard Hidalgo just tanked all of a sudden. Derek Bell went by the wayside as well. Daryle Ward was a bust. Julio Lugo couldn't field a ball worth a damn. (although lately he's gotten better), etc.. etc.. Look the team's minority prospects just haven't worked out lately. That or they got traded in one of the blockbuster deals. (Dotel to the A's in the Beltran trade, Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen to the Mariners in the Randy Johnson trade)

Believe me, the Astros aren't doing anything to supress minority talent. They've just had some bad luck and some trades that in retrospect look bad but at the time were great moves. Randy Johnson was as great as you could ever get from a starting pitcher during his time here. Beltran was the same. We gave up some great guys (most of whom were minorites) for them but at the time the moves were definitely worth it.

Yes there is a perception that the Astros aren't "minority friendly" but it's nothing the Astros have intentionally done. It's just unfortunate luck and some bad scouting but nothing at all specifically racist.

[geeimsobored]

If we can get past the idea of intentional racism or what not, I think there is a good point to be discussed here. Why are the Astros now so terrible at finding minor league talent outside of the US draft? When is the last time we had a really good Latin prospect come up?

Part of it is certainly a financial thing, but it's not like only big market teams are getting Latin American talent these days. Since you can get those guys into your system outside of the draft, it seems like a good investment as you can focus on players you want without having to worry whether they will be available when your draft position comes up.

We've traded a ton of our great Latin American prospects. Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen got shipped in the Randy Johnson trade. Dotel in the Beltran trade. Johan Santana I believe was also in our farm system at one time. Julio Lugo got the boot as well (although that's debateable whether or not he's a great player)

Like I said above, bad luck and moves that in retrospect make us look bad have created this perception

[Rox Addict]

Not sure if you're being serious or not, but we actually beat Japan. We did manage to finish in last place in North America, though, with losses to Canada and Mexico (...and Korea, but they're not in NA).
I honestly thought Japan won..Was it Korea ? I only watched the game -Vs_ Mexico where Roger pitched...

[Joshfast]

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/552/dmmh4.jpg

[Aceshigh7]

Too bad Matsui is hurt. He would be a perfect fit for the Astros.

[Major]

We've traded a ton of our great Latin American prospects. Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen got shipped in the Randy Johnson trade. Dotel in the Beltran trade. Johan Santana I believe was also in our farm system at one time. Julio Lugo got the boot as well (although that's debateable whether or not he's a great player)

Like I said above, bad luck and moves that in retrospect make us look bad have created this perception

Garcia and Guillen were traded 8 years ago. Dotel wasn't ours to begin with - he came up with the Mets and we traded for him. Santana also was at least 7 or 8 years ago. We dumped Lugo 5 years ago, I think?

I think JoeJoe is right - Carlos Hernandez being the last big-time Latin prospect that we seem to have had. In the 1990's we had a great Latin America system... It's just in the last 5 years or so, it seems as though we've gotten nothing except fringe players out of the minors in terms of Latin talent (Astacio and Wandy, for example).

[Hakeem's Dream]

I thought race wasn't an issue in baseball anymore. Are people going to start sending death threats again? I think it's a stupid thought and I for one am offended. The race card shouldn't be brought up amongst fans. Why even go there? It's ludicris. Does this mean that the Rockets are racist because all they have are black men and 1 giant Chinese guy? Maybe the Texans are too since they have their token white boy David Carr. Am I the only one who thinks this is rediculous?

[geeimsobored]

Garcia and Guillen were traded 8 years ago. Dotel wasn't ours to begin with - he came up with the Mets and we traded for him. Santana also was at least 7 or 8 years ago. We dumped Lugo 5 years ago, I think?

I think JoeJoe is right - Carlos Hernandez being the last big-time Latin prospect that we seem to have had. In the 1990's we had a great Latin America system... It's just in the last 5 years or so, it seems as though we've gotten nothing except fringe players out of the minors in terms of Latin talent (Astacio and Wandy, for example).

Actually didn't astacio come from the wagner trade with Buchholz and Duckworth?

Either way, you're right we haven't had great Latin American prospects lately. But I don't think it's because of same racism within the organization but just bad scouting and bad player development. I've had some issues with our minor league system and I think we have gone awry in terms of finding overseas talent when at one time we were tops in the league in doing that.

I thought race wasn't an issue in baseball anymore. Are people going to start sending death threats again? I think it's a stupid thought and I for one am offended. The race card shouldn't be brought up amongst fans. Why even go there? It's ludicris. Does this mean that the Rockets are racist because all they have are black men and 1 giant Chinese guy? Maybe the Texans are too since they have their token white boy David Carr. Am I the only one who thinks this is rediculous?

Of course there's no real overt racism in baseball anymore. But this is a broader issue and one that resonates beyond baseball. Just because there are no overt racist issues anymore, doesn't mean that the playing field is equal or that we have nothing left to discuss. African American participation has dramatically declined and while it makes little sense to say that there is some conspiracy in baseball to lock out African Americans, the issue does merit some examination of the topic and an explanation as to why their participation has fallen so quickly.

Like I said earlier, its foolish to label the Astros as "racist" for not having enough minorities, but it is equally foolish to dismiss the topic entirely. There are serious structural issues in terms of African American participation in baseball and only know are we starting to talk about it. Discourse and dialogue are a good thing as long as we refrain from throwing out lables and names unnecessarily.

[bigtexxx]

Garcia and Guillen were traded 8 years ago. Dotel wasn't ours to begin with - he came up with the Mets and we traded for him. Santana also was at least 7 or 8 years ago. We dumped Lugo 5 years ago, I think?

I think JoeJoe is right - Carlos Hernandez being the last big-time Latin prospect that we seem to have had. In the 1990's we had a great Latin America system... It's just in the last 5 years or so, it seems as though we've gotten nothing except fringe players out of the minors in terms of Latin talent (Astacio and Wandy, for example).

deleted

[Kam]

How come the Astros don't have any Asian American players?

We don't have camps in the far east?

[Angle02]

So, what exactly are the Yankees offering that we would want? I can't think of who they might have that's available.

Besides A-Rod, of course. ;)

Good job trying to get the thread back on track...since someone kinda derailed it. Dont know what we could get for Wilson though..Maybe a reliever?

[edwardc]

When Ensberg comes back, Huff needs a place to play. Move Wilson and you solve that.
Why not move ensberg or lane

[bigtexxx]

Why not move ensberg or lane

Lane already got shipped to Round Rock. Ensberg has a lot more upside than Wilson (see last season) and hopefully his injury is responsible for his extended slump this year.

[edwardc]

God forbid that a team make personnel decisions based on performance.

If that were the case ensberg and lane everett should have been gone a long time ago.

[edwardc]

Lane already got shipped to Round Rock. Ensberg has a lot more upside than Wilson (see last season) and hopefully his injury is responsible for his extended slump this year.
BT that's just a excuse ensberg is going to do this every other year.Check his stats he has a good year then a bad year.

[The Cat]

Why not move ensberg or lane

Ensberg is a much better player than Wilson. Lane is in AAA already.

[DaDakota]

Wasnt this the same Luke Scott that tore it up in spring training, earned a starting OF position opening day - only to fail miserably at the ML level?

Id keep Preston Wilson folks.

Yes it was, and it generally takes a couple of trips up and down to get it right.

Luke is ready NOW !

DD

[The Cat]

BT that's just a excuse ensberg is going to do this every other year.Check his stats he has a good year then a bad year.

I have checked his stats. Three of his four seasons being a MLB regular have resulted in a .890 or higher OPS. That's not every other year... that's 3 out of 4 seasons where he was very good. Even in a season like this where many fans are upset, he's still been clearly better than Wilson. More OBP, more slugging, more power... you name it.

[Major]

Why not move ensberg or lane

Lane's not even on the team, so I don't know where we'd move him. Presumably, if they believe Ensberg's injury is the problem, then a healthy Ensberg is a whole lot better than Preston Wilson.

[Storm Surge]

I hope we get Chien Ming Wang

[JunkyardDwg]

If that were the case ensberg and lane everett should have been gone a long time ago.


So are we talking about Preston Wilson or what?


...lane has already been demoted based on his performance...everett's performance on defense is why he's still here...and ensberg's past performance overrides his current struggles possibly due to his injury.


But back to Wilson...

[Fegwu]

maybe they should get jessie jackson and quanell x on the situation. look, i dont know anybody in the astros organization, but if they are trying to get rid of preston wilson i seriously doubt its cause hes black. he has been a major dissapointment and why not get some good prospects for him if you can.

Are you referring to Preston?

You are joking right?

[Another Brother]

Ensberg is a much better player than Wilson. Lane is in AAA already.


Preston is batting 276, played in 94 games, has 100 hits.
Morgan is batting 236, played in 81 games, has 65 hits.

Much better? Nah...

[JunkyardDwg]

Preston is batting 276, played in 94 games, has 100 hits.
Morgan is batting 236, played in 81 games, has 65 hits.

Much better? Nah...

Ensberg also has 19 hrs, 44 rbis, 68 walks, 70 so, .390 obp, abd ,500 slg
Preston has 9 hrs, 52 rbis, 20 walks, 90 so, .315 obp, .420 slg

Preston is a decent bat...but I would rather have Ensberg, whom I think, when healthy is better than Wilson. And Ensberg has already shown even when he's slumping, he's still valuable cause he still can get on base.

[The Real Shady]

Ensberg also has 19 hrs, 44 rbis, 68 walks, 70 so, .390 obp, abd ,500 slg
Preston has 9 hrs, 52 rbis, 20 walks, 90 so, .315 obp, .420 slg

Preston is a decent bat...but I would rather have Ensberg, whom I think, when healthy is better than Wilson. And Ensberg has already shown even when he's slumping, he's still valuable cause he still can get on base.

They are both sucking this year. Ensberg has been replaced by Huff, Lane has been sent to the minors, and Everett is about to be replaced by Tejada.

Wilson is not producing enough from a position that requires great offensive production, so if they can find a suitable replacement they should do so.

[The Cat]

Preston is batting 276, played in 94 games, has 100 hits.
Morgan is batting 236, played in 81 games, has 65 hits.

Much better? Nah...

Sadly, however, you win in baseball by scoring runs, not by collecting the most hits. Otherwise, by the above criteria, David Eckstein would be a more valuable player than Barry Bonds or Adam Dunn.

When player A in a so-called bad year has a .890 OPS and player B in a so-called decent year has a .735 OPS, there's just no comparison between the two players. There might be when you look at a few select statistics... but when you look at the entire body of work (homers, walks, OBP, slugging, OPS, see JD's post) it's not even close.

[The Cat]

They are both sucking this year. Ensberg has been replaced by Huff, Lane has been sent to the minors, and Everett is about to be replaced by Tejada.

Wilson is not producing enough from a position that requires great offensive production, so if they can find a suitable replacement they should do so.

I don't think we're gonna get Tejada.

Also, FWIW, Huff's performance in Tampa and in Houston is significantly worse than Morgan's numbers for the season. Granted, he's not healthy now so it's not an issue, but when Morgan is healthy he's a superior player, so to say he's been replaced is an overstatement. When Morgan is healthy (and assuming he isn't dealt), he'll be back at third, Huff to the OF and either Lamb or Wilson to the bench. I hope it's the latter, but have a gut feeling it'll be the former.

[The Cat]

Are you referring to Preston?

You are joking right?

When you sign a corner OF (a position where offensive excellence is almost required), say you expect 25-30 home runs and a middle-of-the-order bat, and get a player on pace for about 15 homers and a .735 OPS... that's a significant disappointment. And we shouldn't forget how prone he is to double plays or that he's one of the worst defensive outfielders in the majors as well.

He's been a bust, he's gone for sure after the season and there are viable in-house alternatives. If we can get any decent prospect(s) for him, sign us up.

[BigM]

the whole astros are racist thing again? wow, in order for that to be true you'd have to completely put aside the heap of latin american players that have come through here and the slimming number of african-americans in the entire sport. that's not just an astros thing.

i'd love to see some direct proof that the astros are specifically passing up on minority talent for white players. what a joke. it's freaking baseball, i didn't know they needed to fill a racial quota in addition to trying to win a world series. maybe i need to petition for a chinese guy or two?

[thephatp]

I am in fact being harsh, fellas. But, c'mon. I'm just saying what every other minority baseball fan in the world is saying . . .

The Astros Organization doesn't cultivate good minority ball players. They just don't. The mere fact that you can actually keep count of the minorities on our team does not speak well. I'm not being bitter about it. I'm just being honest. It's sad because every other quality team in the league has significant minority impact. They just do.

:) Please don't hate the messenger!

Man I'm really sick of stupid people bringing up the issue of race in EVERYTHING. Now baseball. Give me a break, good grief. Check your stats BEFORE you post something stupid and controversial, like this.

Here are the players that were on the 25 man roster for the Astros the past 3 years:


2006
Willy Taveras
Preston Wilson
Fernando Nieve
Wandy Rodriquez
Orlando Palmeiro
-> 25% minority


2005
Willy Taveras
Wandy Rodriquez
Ezequiel Astacio
Charlton Jimerson
Raul Chavez
Humberto Quintero
Jose Vizcaino
Orlando Palmeiro
-> 32% minority


2004
Octavio Dotel
Carlos Hernandez
Carlos Beltran
Richard Hidalgo
Jason Alfaro
Willy Taveras
Jose Vizcaino
Orlando Palmeiro
-> 32% minority

Ok, I've done the numbers here. Now, you tell me what the percentage is of minority players to caucasian in MLB, and we'll see how the Astros fare.

Oh, by the way, do you people realize that issues with race will NEVER DIE while stupid comments like this one from Ra Ooh La La are made? :mad:

[Fegwu]

When you sign a corner OF (a position where offensive excellence is almost required), say you expect 25-30 home runs and a middle-of-the-order bat, and get a player on pace for about 15 homers and a .735 OPS... that's a significant disappointment. And we shouldn't forget how prone he is to double plays or that he's one of the worst defensive outfielders in the majors as well.

He's been a bust, he's gone for sure after the season and there are viable in-house alternatives. If we can get any decent prospect(s) for him, sign us up.


Well I guess it depends on how you view these things. Knowing Preston's game from previous years I did not expect him to be this good - I thought getting him was a bad move because I did not think he is the kind of player we needed.

So far I have been extreemly pleased with Preston - he has surpassed my expection.

If you waste your time trying to base that on some other parameter or yardstick then that is your problem. I based my evaluations on expectation of individual players. You cannot bring a lizard from Africa and expect him to act or become an alligator in Florida.

He is #8 in the majors in the BA column for LF

In the same select group, he is top 10 in RBI

If you compute it all and factor in the fact that he is not in his prime anymore (age catching up with him), what we our left field looked like last year, plus what his numbers will fairly look like by the end of the year, I will say he has not been a dissappointment.

[Ra Ooh La La]

First off, I'd like to take a moment to genuinely apologize to countingcrow for derailing his/her thread. I also apologize for my insensitivity and poor choice of wording with regard to the phrase "ethnic cleasing." My remarks were inconsiderate and disrespectful to the thread starter and my original statement was irresponsibly offensive. For these things, I sincerely apologize.

I do believe there is real issue with this organization. Whether it's rooted in racism or purely poor administrative execution with regard to taking advantange of foreign talent, I do believe it's a real issue nonetheless.

Man I'm really sick of stupid people bringing up the issue of race in EVERYTHING . . . Oh, by the way, do you people realize that issues with race will NEVER DIE while stupid comments like this one from Ra Ooh La La are made? :mad:

Respectfully, thephatp, you do not know me. Perhaps you imagine me a blowhard angry minority spouting off about some non-existent racial issue. Unfortunately for your arguement, I have little to no respect for LULAC or the NAACP or any other faction that has some special interest slanted towards a particular race or ethnicity.

My arguments are not rooted in a rally for quotas and minority rights to play baseball in Houston. My arguments are rooted in the understanding that baseball is becoming more and more minority impacted while our home team does not reflect the same. A greater presence of minorties in baseball represents the greatest talent. Pick your all-mlb team, and I tend to believe you'll wind up with more than 3 (average to below average token minorites) active.

The "Ethinic Cleansing" remark was admittedly a stupid and tasteless comment. I ask your forgiveness for that lapse in judgement. But if you can objectively review the subsequent commentary and discussion and still lump me into the "stupid people" catagory, unforunately there's not really anything more I can say.

Finally, in a show of respect to countingcrow and the original purpose of this thread, I encourage all viewers to refrain from any further comment with regard to minorities in baseball. Parting shots and additional discussion may directed to me at raoul_101@hotmail.com

Please continue to discuss possible prospects available from the Yankees with regard to the potential Wilson trade. It may be interesting to determine where exactly Preston Wilson falls in terms of the Yankees' backup plan in comparison to the other names listed (Shawn Green & Craig Wilson). Perhaps another team (Tigers, LAA, etc) could also be interested in another bat as Soriano and Abreu talks have continued heating.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/24/bowden/1.html

Again, countingcrow, please accept my most humble apologies and pardon my reckless disrespect.

[MadMax]

My arguments are rooted in the understanding that baseball is becoming more and more minority impacted

.

yes and no.

yes...there are latin players and even asian players in the game today. latinos are very well represented on the astros.

but since this is a thread about preston wilson, i'm assuming you mean, at least in part, African-Americans. in that case, your incorrect. the percentage of African-Americans in baseball has steadily decreased...down to 9% of all MLB. that's about 2 players on each team. not many. the article i've linked to below is from 2003...it's actually decreased since then:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/07/10/black_ballplayer/


PS -- oops...just saw that i should email this to you. i probably wouldn't do that, anyway.

[mateo]

I do believe there is real issue with this organization. Whether it's rooted in racism or purely poor administrative execution with regard to taking advantange of foreign talent, I do believe it's a real issue nonetheless.



I think everyone should read this before making statements about the Astros being a racist organization:

http://juantornoe.blogs.com/hispanictrending/2005/07/as_venezuelas_b.html

"Some observers of Latin American baseball believe Venezuela will become the next great exporter of talent to the United States, pointing to its size - - 26 million residents, compared with the Dominican Republic's 9 million -- and the country's infatuation with the game.

"I'm certain that in five years Venezuela will overtake the Dominican Republic in producing major-league players," said Andres Reiner, the man many consider responsible for awakening this sleeping giant.

Astros opened the door

A longtime Astros scouting director who now advises general manager Tim Purpura, Reiner convinced then-Houston GM Bill Wood to open an academy in Venezuela in 1989, the first such facility in the country.

Reiner disputed the common perception that Venezuela could produce only one good major-leaguer per decade, and he believed the local talent would flourish if given the kind of nurturing an academy can provide, with trained instructors, high-level competition and guidance in making the transition to the United States.

Moreover, by the mid-'80s, Reiner had the vision to realize Venezuela's changing economic fortunes would steer more youngsters toward baseball as a means out of poverty.

It wasn't always that way.

Venezuela was known as the Latin version of Saudi Arabia in the 1970s, thanks to its large oil reserves and high standard of living.

"Everybody was wealthy," Reiner said. "Maids were buying condos in Miami."

Not only were public universities free, but the government offered scholarships for outstanding students to attend college abroad.

When oil prices collapsed in the early '80s, so did the economy, resulting in burgeoning poverty and unemployment (now around 17 percent). Last year, the Venezuelan per-capita income was $4,400, and because wealth is distributed so unevenly, more than 80 percent of the population lived below the poverty line.

In a way, the economic woes helped usher in the baseball prosperity.

Recalled Reiner: "When I got started I would ask dads, 'Why won't you let your son play baseball?' They'd say, 'Are you crazy. That's not going to lead anywhere. He's going to go to college.' Now the dads seek me out and ask me, 'Can you check out my son?' "

The Astros' academy's first class produced three major-leaguers, headlined by Abreu. Reiner later discovered Santana and Hidalgo, among the nearly 20 prospects he has signed for Houston who have made it to the bigs."

[DaDakota]

Meritocracy -


Look it up !

[The Cat]

Fegwu: I am going by expectations. Preston has had an OPS of higher than .735 in 6 of his past 7 seasons. I expected something like last season, in the .790 range. He also had at least 23 homers in 6 of his last 7 seasons. Right now, he's on a pace for about 15. I'm judging Preston by expectations as well. When we signed him, I (and the Astros) expected a middle of the order bat who could deliver 25 homers and slug a decent percentage. He's failing on both of those counts.

He's not terrible by any means. But he's not the middle of the order, 25-30 HR power bat that many of us envisioned when we signed him in January. And when he doesn't deliver on his power, many of his other deficiencies (strikeouts, double plays, contact hitting, poor defense) become that much more glaring.

[Hakeem's Dream]

Actually didn't astacio come from the wagner trade with Buchholz and Duckworth?

Either way, you're right we haven't had great Latin American prospects lately. But I don't think it's because of same racism within the organization but just bad scouting and bad player development. I've had some issues with our minor league system and I think we have gone awry in terms of finding overseas talent when at one time we were tops in the league in doing that.



Of course there's no real overt racism in baseball anymore. But this is a broader issue and one that resonates beyond baseball. Just because there are no overt racist issues anymore, doesn't mean that the playing field is equal or that we have nothing left to discuss. African American participation has dramatically declined and while it makes little sense to say that there is some conspiracy in baseball to lock out African Americans, the issue does merit some examination of the topic and an explanation as to why their participation has fallen so quickly.

Like I said earlier, its foolish to label the Astros as "racist" for not having enough minorities, but it is equally foolish to dismiss the topic entirely. There are serious structural issues in terms of African American participation in baseball and only know are we starting to talk about it. Discourse and dialogue are a good thing as long as we refrain from throwing out lables and names unnecessarily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_American_baseball_players

If you have enough time to go through 199 pages, read this and tell me that Black people are underappreciated, or whatever word you want to use, in baseball. I bet the list of Caucasian basketball players is much shorter and must signify a racial problem in the NBA.

[kaleidosky]

For all who didn't go through the entire thread.. he was talking about ALL minorities--not just black players. And he was quite level-headed and polite in his argument, so there's no need for the relentless bashing. Last, he asked that we get this back on topic since the thread is about Preston to the Yanks.


On the Wilson subject.. I'd love to dump Wilson and get anything out of him. We all know we're not picking up his option. He's produced so-so after a terrible start...but he's still not at what a middle-of-the-order, corner-OF bat should be at. Esp. not for the $$ and years the option would be worth with his age where it is.

BUT, unless we're sure about Luke.. or unless we have another big deal with the works (Tejada)...we would essentially be giving up on the season if we deal Preston. I mean, we'd be back to where we were before the Huff deal...with a mediocre middle of the lineup that depends too heavily on Lance and Ensberg (if he comes back healthy)... with Huff essentially replacing Wilson in the 5 hole.

[wrath_of_khan]

First off, I'd like to take a moment to genuinely apologize to countingcrow for derailing his/her thread. I also apologize for my insensitivity and poor choice of wording with regard to the phrase "ethnic cleasing." My remarks were inconsiderate and disrespectful to the thread starter and my original statement was irresponsibly offensive. For these things, I sincerely apologize.

It takes a big man/person to make a public apology. You've earned my respect with this last post.

Just don't casually throw "ethnic cleansing" around anymore. ;)

[Master Baiter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_American_baseball_players

If you have enough time to go through 199 pages, read this and tell me that Black people are underappreciated, or whatever word you want to use, in baseball. I bet the list of Caucasian basketball players is much shorter and must signify a racial problem in the NBA.
That's different.

[Hakeem's Dream]

Okay, back to the lecture at hand. (I am quoting Snoop)

Preston would probably love to go play in NY again. It's one thing to play for the Mets but it's a whole different ballgame (no pun intended) with the Yanks. My only thing is, you know he sees how A-Rod is being treated so do you think he would want to go play for those people? I bet he would rather be here where he is appreciated. Yes, I said it, where he is APPRECIATED.

[geeimsobored]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_American_baseball_players

If you have enough time to go through 199 pages, read this and tell me that Black people are underappreciated, or whatever word you want to use, in baseball. I bet the list of Caucasian basketball players is much shorter and must signify a racial problem in the NBA.

That's irrelevant. The point is that african american participation is decreasing now. Fine, there were plenty of african americans in the past, but that's not so today.

A lack of white players in the NBA isn't necessarily an issue. Most caucasians have equal access to facilities to play basketball. The same can't be said for urban America and baseball.

Either way, enough derailing of this thread. Yes, if possible ship Preston off to New York. He was a rental player anyway and he wasn't giving us the impact we had hoped for in terms of power.

[Master Baiter]

That's irrelevant. The point is that african american participation is decreasing now. Fine, there were plenty of african americans in the past, but that's not so today.

A lack of white players in the NBA isn't necessarily an issue. Most caucasians have equal access to facilities to play basketball. The same can't be said for urban America and baseball.
Countries in South America are just about as poor as you get. If anyone wants to play baseball then I'm sure they can figure something out. We used a stick and a tennis ball growing up in our crappy apartment complex.

[Burzmali]

It's cute, but not quite accurate.

Simply watching this year's baseball all-star game (every year's all-star game) would reveal that minorities have an enormous impact in major league baseball. Most of the best teams in the league have significant minority presence.

The inverse cannot necessarily be said of basketball. It is quite unique and special for a non-black player to become a superstar in basketball, if for no other reason than because of the the street-cred and hip-hop culture that is so attached to basketball today.

And to qualify it further, I would in fact be quite suspicious of any NBA basketball team that had all-black athletes.

Are you saying that basketball as a sport is inherently racist because of the "hip-hop culture" and "street-cred", so it's okay to exclude white players? Don't really see your point. Also, I never mentioned anything about superstar players, and neither did your post about baseball teams.

I am very alarmed at the low number of white players in the NBA right now, why don't you consider my concerns valid? I don't appreciate your scoffing at my post.

[Buck Turgidson]

Back to the crux of your post: "My arguments are rooted in the understanding that baseball is becoming more and more minority impacted".

Do you have any figures to back this up? IIRC, the percentage of white baseball players has remained fairly consistent over the past few decades, with the recent trend being latin (and less-so, asian) numbers increasing while black numbers have decreased.

[Hakeem's Dream]

A lack of white players in the NBA isn't necessarily an issue. Most caucasians have equal access to facilities to play basketball. The same can't be said for urban America and baseball.
I am sorry, but that is total BS.

I have to edit to add, what difference does all of this make? Who gives a rat's behind what color someone is. In the immortal words of Martin Luther King, Jr., "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. " That means more than just racism against minorities. Even what most people consider as positive such as having to have X number of minorities somewhere is doing the same thing as judging someone negatively for their color or creed. If this wish of Mr. King's is to happen, people need to look at people's actions, not their race. This includes judging white people because of their presence and not their talent. I think pulling the race card in baseball is absolutely stupid this century. Back in Jackie Robinson's day it was appropriate. Now, it's just ludicrous.

[The Real Shady]

That's irrelevant. The point is that african american participation is decreasing now. Fine, there were plenty of african americans in the past, but that's not so today.

A lack of white players in the NBA isn't necessarily an issue. Most caucasians have equal access to facilities to play basketball. The same can't be said for urban America and baseball.


I would say that black players had harder access to playing baseball 20-30 years ago, and yet there were more black players in baseball at that time. It's not that America is taking away the oppotunities for black players to play baseball it's just that everyone wants to "Be Like Mike." Baseball is not cool in urban areas so those kids choose to play basketball or football.

[msn]

For all who didn't go through the entire thread.. he was talking about ALL minorities--not just black players. And he was quite level-headed and polite in his argument, so there's no need for the relentless bashing. Last, he asked that we get this back on topic since the thread is about Preston to the Yanks.
While I appreciate your point that most of his posts were polite and I very much appreciate his last post you mention, you're not being fair in leaving out the fact that his first post was completely inappropriate and merited all the bashing it got. And, not only was in response to our only African-American potentially being traded, but the argument that "all minorities" are lacking in the Astros organization was dismantled pretty soundly.

Who should we get for PW? A reliever *and* a bat (not a superstar bat, just a bat), or no deal.

[Hakeem's Dream]

While I appreciate your point that most of his posts were polite and I very much appreciate his last post you mention, you're not being fair in leaving out the fact that his first post was completely inappropriate and merited all the bashing it got. And, not only was in response to our only African-American potentially being traded, but the argument that "all minorities" are lacking in the Astros organization was dismantled pretty soundly.

Who should we get for PW? A reliever *and* a bat (not a superstar bat, just a bat), or no deal.
I think we should be looking at bats and like you said not a superstar bat. We need to stop worrying about signing names rather than ability.

[edwardc]

How did this thread get to be about race this started about P.Wilson being traded not about his race.

[Hakeem's Dream]

How did this thread get to be about race this started about P.Wilson being traded not about his race.
Originally Posted by Ra Ooh La La
Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.

[Stone Cold Hakeem]

Originally Posted by Ra Ooh La La
Just move Taveras now, and the Astro's "ethnic cleansing" will be complete . . . This team is unbelievably disgusting.

I don't know if this means anything but I did overhear Purpura in Starbucks mention that Phase I of "Operation Whitewash" had almost come to completion.

[Another Brother]

I am sorry, but that is total BS.


Not necessarliy true.

If this wish of Mr. King's is to happen, people need to look at people's actions, not their race.

Absolutely true.

[Ra Ooh La La]

Admittedly, I am to blame, edwardc.

First off, I'd like to take a moment to genuinely apologize to countingcrow for derailing his/her thread. I also apologize for my insensitivity and poor choice of wording with regard to the phrase "ethnic cleasing." My remarks were inconsiderate and disrespectful to the thread starter and my original statement was irresponsibly offensive. For these things, I sincerely apologize.

I do believe there is real issue with this organization. Whether it's rooted in racism or purely poor administrative execution with regard to taking advantange of foreign talent, I do believe it's a real issue nonetheless.
Man I'm really sick of stupid people bringing up the issue of race in EVERYTHING . . . Oh, by the way, do you people realize that issues with race will NEVER DIE while stupid comments like this one from Ra Ooh La La are made?
Respectfully, thephatp, you do not know me. Perhaps you imagine me a blowhard angry minority spouting off about some non-existent racial issue. Unfortunately for your arguement, I have little to no respect for LULAC or the NAACP or any other faction that has some special interest slanted towards a particular race or ethnicity.

My arguments are not rooted in a rally for quotas and minority rights to play baseball in Houston. My arguments are rooted in the understanding that baseball is becoming more and more minority impacted while our home team does not reflect the same. A greater presence of minorties in baseball represents the greatest talent. Pick your all-mlb team, and I tend to believe you'll wind up with more than 3 (average to below average token minorites) active.

The "Ethinic Cleansing" remark was admittedly a stupid and tasteless comment. I ask your forgiveness for that lapse in judgement. But if you can objectively review the subsequent commentary and discussion and still lump me into the "stupid people" catagory, unforunately there's not really anything more I can say.

Finally, in a show of respect to countingcrow and the original purpose of this thread, I encourage all viewers to refrain from any further comment with regard to minorities in baseball. Parting shots and additional discussion may directed to me at raoul_101@hotmail.com

Please continue to discuss possible prospects available from the Yankees with regard to the potential Wilson trade. It may be interesting to determine where exactly Preston Wilson falls in terms of the Yankees' backup plan in comparison to the other names listed (Shawn Green & Craig Wilson). Perhaps another team (Tigers, LAA, etc) could also be interested in another bat as Soriano and Abreu talks have continued heating.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/24/bowden/1.html

Again, countingcrow, please accept my most humble apologies and pardon my reckless disrespect.

Once again, please excuse my reckless disrespect in derailing this thread. Futher discussion regarding minorities in baseball may be directed towards me at raoul_101@hotmail.com.

Out of respect for the original poster, countingcrow, I encourage all viewers to limit further discussion in this thread to the potential trade of Preston Wilson.

[Hakeem's Dream]

I just hope Wilson gets what he really wants. I think he's a great guy and I like him a lot.

[HAYJON02]

Ouch, you poor poor thread.

What kind of prospects do the Yankees have that might be good trade bait?

[Hakeem's Dream]

The only Yankees I would be interested in are A-Rod and Jeter and I want A-Rod more than Jeter. Who could we really send with Wilson? I would think they would want one of our pitchers.