Reggie Bush might hold out for the year?

[rimbaud]

At best it doesn't sound good for New Orleans (it seems he will be sit for at least the early part) ...a team already in a bad situation. Looks as if the Texans might not have been so crazy. Who knows.

Will Reggie run a reverse?
By Jason Cole, Yahoo! Sports
July 21, 2006

Jason Cole
Yahoo! Sports
No. 2 overall pick and Heisman Trophy-winning running back Reggie Bush not only appears headed for a holdout with the New Orleans Saints, a league source said Bush is toying with the idea of sitting out the entire season and going back in the draft in 2007 if he doesn't get his price.

"No player has ever had the kind of leverage that Reggie Bush has right now," the source said. "The Saints made it clear what they were willing to do before and now we'll see if they're going to get there."

It seems unlikely the Saints will do that in time for Bush to report to training camp with the team on Thursday in Jackson, Miss. Two sources said that talks between the Saints and agent Joel Segal have been nearly non-existent.

On Wednesday, Mike Ornstein, who is Bush's marketing agent, told the Clarion-Ledger of Jackson, Miss., that he didn't think Bush would be signed in time for camp. Ornstein is not allowed to negotiate contracts, but he is acutely aware of all of Bush's business matters.

One of the sources took that a step further, saying Segal was considering not having Bush sign at all. Segal declined to comment when contacted Friday and messages left with multiple members of the New Orleans organization weren't returned.

ADVERTISEMENT
While it appears unlikely on face value that Bush would sit out, he appears well-positioned to do so if he really wants.

Bush supposedly has more than $5 million in the bank from multiple endorsement deals Ornstein has negotiated since Bush left the University of Southern California. That money is guaranteed regardless of whether Bush plays this season.

Next, Bush could probably sit out 2006 and still be a high pick next year.

Furthermore, Bush probably has the public sentiment running in his favor. Even though holdout players are generally unpopular, Bush has caused tremendous excitement in New Orleans.

In May, shortly after Bush was drafted, the Saints had already set a franchise record for season-ticket sales, having topped 55,000 at that time. That's extraordinary, especially considering the condition of the hurricane-ravaged city.

Moreover, team owner Tom Benson is immensely unpopular in New Orleans. Ranging from his hard-line negotiations with the city and state to constant threats that he will move the team, Benson is often treated with open scorn by Saints fans.

Bush has also worked hard to endear himself to fans in the city after it came out that he didn't want to play in New Orleans. Bush has made multiple donations to hurricane relief.

Jason Cole is an NFL writer for Yahoo! Sports.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AuEIEr.KmFzZ9f_PReKSlK45nYcB?slug=jc-bush072106&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[rocketsinsider]

damn it u got to it rite be4 i did :mad:

but thats cool, wow if he really sit out for the whole season this could be a huge blow to NO, think about the amount of people who are going to be screaming for their refunds :eek:

Bush or no Bush I think this is a really low move.

[TheBigSleep]

If this is true, Mario Williams is looking better and better.

[Aceshigh7]

We're still gonna suck really bad this year. Maybe he'll sit out and we can have a chance to draft Bush next year!

Aww, who am I kidding. We all know the Texans would screw it up yet again.

[DieHard Rocket]

This is what gives pro athletes a bad name. Dude hasn't played a down and the NFL and he is threatening to sit out. I don't know why the NFL doesn't have a set salary for draft picks...it's ridiculous.

I hope he sits out and ends up like Clarett and Mike Williams (though the jury is still out on him) ... then he'll be wishing he took the money now.

[meh]

So does Bush want out, the way Eli Manning or John Elway forced themselves out of a town, or does he simply want to be paid like a #1? I can't see Tom Benson be cheap now when he had gazillion great trade offers before the draft. It makes no sense unless Bush's demands are simply outrageous. If that's the case, then I'm glad the Texans aren't putting up with this headache right now.

[MadMax]

wow. what a jackass.

[Nick]

So does Bush want out, the way Eli Manning or John Elway forced themselves out of a town, or does he simply want to be paid like a #1? I can't see Tom Benson be cheap now when he had gazillion great trade offers before the draft. It makes no sense unless Bush's demands are simply outrageous. If that's the case, then I'm glad the Texans aren't putting up with this headache right now.

Not only does he want to be paid as a #1... he wants to be paid MORE than the #1 pick got this year. The Saints are following the same pay scale that has been used for every NFL draft since its inception... that the #2 pick gets paid less.

Bush can "afford" to do this because he's already got a year's worth of salary in endorsements... but I doubt those stay around that long with the hit that his image will take if he sits out the season.

It is weird, however, to see him on the cover of SI this week with a saints jersey... I doubt he ends up skipping the entire year, but you can clearly see why the Texans had some reservations about this "can't miss" prospect, who seemed to want more than he has "earned" from the get-go.

[The Real Shady]

Bush seems to be all about the $$$. Good job by Kubiak, McNair, and Casserly spotting that out and not drafting him.

He may have some spectacular seasons but I foresee him getting traded a lot in his future.

[ima_drummer2k]

We're still gonna suck really bad this year. Maybe he'll sit out and we can have a chance to draft Bush next year!

Aww, who am I kidding. We all know the Texans would screw it up yet again.
Yeah, they really screwed up by signing their #1 draft pick before they drafted him and passing over a guy who is willing to sit out the entire year if he doesn't get what he wants. Damn you, Bob McNair. :rolleyes:

LOL, Bush has a regular agent and a "marketing" agent? Two different agents? It sounds like he's been rallying the fans to take his side so he'll have more leverage. What a douche.

The Texans said a big reason they didn't pick Bush was because he would be hard to sign. Looks like they made the right decision. It's just too bad for Saints fans. I was really looking forward to seeing the Saints back in the Superdome. Having Bush play well would really be great for that city.

[IC2000]

The Texans said a big reason they didn't pick Bush was because he would be hard to sign. Looks like they made the right decision. It's just too bad for Saints fans. I was really looking forward to seeing the Saints back in the Superdome. Having Bush play well would really be great for that city.

They said that? I remember them saying they could have signed either of them. Whether its true or not, who knows? But they did say they had a deal for both

[KingCheetah]

Has an exact figure of how much he wants been floated out yet?

[Air Langhi]

They should pay him whatever it takes, he will prob be better than mario williams.

[SwoLy-D]

This is not about the TEXANS. Don't tarnish my beloved Texans' forum with crap like this. Please move this thread to the HANGOUT. :mad:

:mad: Who gives a sh*t about this Reggie guy? Only if you live in New Orleans, or already picked him in your fantasy football team... and that's HANGOUT stuff. Please move this thread.

[whag00]

Wouldn't losing an entire year worth of paychecks cost him more money in the long-run than if he signs a contract similar to Williams? There is no guarantee that he would be the top pick next year with Peterson, Quinn and Posluszny coming out.

[Hottoddie]

He'd be real stupid to hold out & re-enter the draft next year. He's guaranteed #2 money this year. If he re-enters the draft next year, he'll lose a year's salary, interest on his bonus & 1st year's salary, & in all likely hood, drop down to the 5-10 pick range. That'd be giving up a huge amount of money just to stroke his ego.

By the way, having sat out a year, he'll in all likely hood, be competing against players coming off of great seasons like Brady Quinn, Adrian Peterson, Paul Posluszny, Sidney Rice, Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas, & who knows what players will come out of no where to be the next Mario Williams, Vince Young, Vernon Davis, or Donte Whitner. Being out of the limelight for a year will automatically tarnish Bush's prospects. If his agent allows this, he'll take a hit from future college draft picks, because he will have cost his client a lot of money.

But, that's just my opinion. I never wanted Bush from the beginning anyway.

[rimbaud]

:mad: Who gives a sh*t about this Reggie guy? Only if you live in New Orleans, or already picked him in your fantasy football team... and that's HANGOUT stuff. Please move this thread.

I put it in here because there were rumors leading up to and after the draft that Bush was too difficult to work with over money and that was a big reason for the Texans passing him up. I even indicated such with my second sentence.

[ima_drummer2k]

They said that? I remember them saying they could have signed either of them. Whether its true or not, who knows? But they did say they had a deal for both
That was the rumor right after they announced (the night before the draft) that they had signed Mario. But with this turn of events, it sounds like it was more than just a rumor.

Reggie is the #2 pick and he wants more $$ than the #1 pick, according to that article. That's just crazy. What right does he have to demand more money than the guy picked ahead of him? Can you imagine if he WAS the #1 pick?

Mario = signed before draft day, took part in pre-camp workouts, will be in camp on time and ready to go, and best of all, held the door open for ima while he was rolling his gear to the loading dock at the 'Open House' last month. :D

Bush = demanding more money than the guy picked AHEAD of him and is willing to sit out the WHOLE YEAR to get it, and has a "marketing" agent in addition to his regular agent.

I didn't think so at the time, but now I think the Texans made the right choice.

[msn]

This is what gives pro athletes a bad name. Dude hasn't played a down and the NFL and he is threatening to sit out.
Precisely. If this report is true, then what a pompous dick. For every span of games he'd help the Texans win, there'd be months he's nothing but a total freaking disastrous distraction to the whole franchise.

Above all, I hope the report is false or overplayed. If it's true, I agree with the poster who hopes he's the next Maurice Clarette (sp?).

The Texans said a big reason they didn't pick Bush was because he would be hard to sign. Looks like they made the right decision.
Agreed.

[Creepy Crawl]

Dang . What an a**hole . I was upset at first for the home team not taking him . This just backs up what the Texans already knew , he was a money grubbing A-Hole . I wonder if Subway is mad . :D

[trifecta333]

Right now he already has 5 mil. in endorsements. I think he's just jealous because he didn't get picked first overall and believes he should get that type of money.

[leroy420]

We're still gonna suck really bad this year. Maybe he'll sit out and we can have a chance to draft Bush next year!

Aww, who am I kidding. We all know the Texans would screw it up yet again.

I think this is proof enough that the Texans made the right decision.

The next draft is going to be tougher for him than this one. Adrian Peterson, if healthy for the entire season, would probably be a higher pick than Bush. This would be a huge mistake on his part and would certainly not endear him to any team that he might end up with.

[MadMax]

I think this is proof enough that the Texans made the right decision.

The next draft is going to be tougher for him than this one. Adrian Peterson, if healthy for the entire season, would probably be a higher pick than Bush. This would be a huge mistake on his part and would certainly not endear him to any team that he might end up with.

wait?? what??? he's not the next gale sayers?? he's not the best prospect to come out in the last 30 years????? he's not the "no-brainer" #1 pick every single year? :D ;)

[WallofYao]

awesomee... maybe they'll trade him to us. :D

[Deckard]

http://antigenius.net/blog/archives/ego.jpg

[tierre_brown]

I do believe Kamerion Wimbley and Mario Williams are the only 2 first rounders that have been locked up to deals so far (at least, that's what ESPN told me on Sportscenter tonight).

I wouldn't look at it as a really big deal just yet. However, I was/am happy that we didn't take him after reading that Michael Smith article (for some reason, archives are Insider material; the beginnings of the article can be read here: http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2419503 ) Let him become someone else's headache...

[Fegwu]

He'd be real stupid to hold out & re-enter the draft next year. He's guaranteed #2 money this year. If he re-enters the draft next year, he'll lose a year's salary, interest on his bonus & 1st year's salary, & in all likely hood, drop down to the 5-10 pick range. That'd be giving up a huge amount of money just to stroke his ego.

By the way, having sat out a year, he'll in all likely hood, be competing against players coming off of great seasons like Brady Quinn, Adrian Peterson, Paul Posluszny, Sidney Rice, Calvin Johnson, Joe Thomas, & who knows what players will come out of no where to be the next Mario Williams, Vince Young, Vernon Davis, or Donte Whitner. Being out of the limelight for a year will automatically tarnish Bush's prospects. If his agent allows this, he'll take a hit from future college draft picks, because he will have cost his client a lot of money.

But, that's just my opinion. I never wanted Bush from the beginning anyway.


What he said.

I think it goes without saying that he is not serious about doing this - it will be a lose-lose for him if he sits out. I expect something to be resolved soon. Reggie Bush and Team Bush cannot be that stupid.

[jgreen91]

wow. what a jackass.

i'm pretty sure you may not know the whole story. They were talking about it on the radio and saying the owner is trying to lowball him. This would not have been an issue in houston because we would have paid him what he is worth.

This is the owners fault and not the players in this situation.

[OldManBernie]

wait?? what??? he's not the next gale sayers?? he's not the best prospect to come out in the last 30 years????? he's not the "no-brainer" #1 pick every single year? :D ;)

no madmax... the best prospect to come out in the last 30 years is none other than vince young. :D

[MadMax]

no madmax... the best prospect to come out in the last 30 years is none other than vince young. :D

shhhh..someone might hear you! :D

[MadMax]

i'm pretty sure you may not know the whole story. They were talking about it on the radio and saying the owner is trying to lowball him. This would not have been an issue in houston because we would have paid him what he is worth.

This is the owners fault and not the players in this situation.

you're right...i don't know the whole story. and i do know that tom benson is a grade-a jackass. sooooo....there maybe much more to this story than meets the eye.

having said that...reportedly, this was the concern the texans had that kept them from drafting bush: signability. they didn't want long negotiations. they didn't want a holdout. i would have gone a very different direction than the one they went with mario williams...but bush SEEMS to be making the texans' case for them, and that should help the texans in the court of public opinion.

[A_3PO]

i'm pretty sure you may not know the whole story. They were talking about it on the radio and saying the owner is trying to lowball him. This would not have been an issue in houston because we would have paid him what he is worth.

This is the owners fault and not the players in this situation.
How do you define lowball? If it just means he gets paid less than Mario Williams then lowballing is justified. Bush was not the #1 pick and his agent needs to get over that. Supposedley they were asking the Texans for a $30MM signing bonus which is ridiculous. At this point, it's hard to say which side (or both) is being unreasonable. IMO, the starting point for the negotiations should be Mario Williams' contract and go DOWN from there.

To the other poster, this isn't about Bush's ego. It's about the agent saving face when representing one of the most hyped players in the history of the NFL draft.

My 2 cents is he will not sit out the season and re-enter the draft. If Brady Quinn pans out, Bush won't be #1 next year. He'll also be stale bread, to some extent. Whoever drafts him next year will be able to successfully hardball him because sitting out again will not be an option. I believe there are several owners who would do exactly that. Both sides have too much to lose and a deal will get done some time this year.

[Rashmon]

I think if you consider this story in context with the "free rent" story, agent intrigue, and rumors of Bush being difficult to deal with on $$$ and I'd say the Texans made a wise move skipping on Bush. Who, I must say, I wanted.

[leroy420]

i'm pretty sure you may not know the whole story. They were talking about it on the radio and saying the owner is trying to lowball him. This would not have been an issue in houston because we would have paid him what he is worth.

This is the owners fault and not the players in this situation.

My guess is that this is coming from both sides. Bush wants #1 money. The Saints aren't offering that. Benson is a jackass. Bush is putting himself in that league. He needs to see what happened to Cedric Benson last season. The Saints also have one bargaining chip. They have some other RB by the name of Deuce McAllister. There is also a reason that Michael Bennett hasn't been traded yet. They could be saying, "You don't want what we're offering, fine. Take your chances at getting anything close to it next season. We're fine as we are."

[DonnyMost]

lol.. can't believe people are just now starting to realize the rationale behind the Texans pick.

Welcome to planet sanity guys :cool:

Bush and VY were holdouts waiting to happen at skill positions the Texans had already filled.

So yeah, who's this Mario dude again?

[Hottoddie]

To the other poster, this isn't about Bush's ego. It's about the agent saving face when representing one of the most hyped players in the history of the NFL draft.

The agent works for Bush. Bush makes the final call. If he allows the negotiations to result in a holdout because New Orleans won't pay him more than Mario, then that tells me his ego won't let him accept the fact that he was not drafted with the #1 pick.

Here's an outside the box idea, if Bush thinks he's so good that he should've been drafted #1, how about he signs a 1 year guaranteed deal for $5-10 million & prove what he can do on the field? That way, he'll have all the leverage in his next negotiation. Even if he's injured, he'll have $10-15 million in the bank & will never have to worry about money for the rest of his life. I know he'll never do that, because very few rookies live up to their full pre-draft hype. Add to that, Bush's bum wheel, & I don't blame Benson for not wanting to pay him more than Mario.

I thank God that the Texan's front office didn't buy into the ESPN hype machine.

[The Real Shady]

Bush and VY were holdouts waiting to happen at skill positions the Texans had already filled.


Filled? Don't be surprised if Wali Lundy is our starting RB this year. DD is hurt pretty bad from what I'm hearing.

[Groogrux]

lol.. can't believe people are just now starting to realize the rationale behind the Texans pick.?

They'll realize it on the first forced punt of the season when Donovan McNabb has to clean off the back of his jersey...courtesy of Super Mario.

[DonnyMost]

Filled? Don't be surprised if Wali Lundy is our starting RB this year. DD is hurt pretty bad from what I'm hearing.

Wouldn't bother me.

I trust Kubiak to devise a running scheme that could make Ryan Bowen look like Walter Payton.

[gucci888]

No way Bush holds out for the entire season, but I don't expect him to be in training camp. There has already been way too much investment by the season ticket holders to let Bush sit out.

[ROXRAN]

They'll realize it on the first forced punt of the season when Donovan McNabb has to clean off the back of his jersey...courtesy of Super Mario.

Thank you for putting a smile on my face... :)

[leroy420]

Filled? Don't be surprised if Wali Lundy is our starting RB this year. DD is hurt pretty bad from what I'm hearing.

At best he'd be second behind Antowain Smith. That's if he beats out Vernand Morency.

[mbiker]

Not only is Bush hurting his teammates and the organization, but what about the fans in New Orleans that look to football as a relief of everyday events. We all know, well everyone but Bush, what happened in that city recently. Even a year after the hurricane there is still subdivision after subdivision abandoned. Some people that couldn’t afford insurance are still trying to save pennies for basic appliances. There are people that still have not found jobs because their company chose to not rebuild. If it was any other city except New Orleans I might give the guy a break, but this is ridiculous.

Also, what about the $5 million in endorsement deals that he is going to get. He has an obligation to those companies that are paying him. All he has to do is smile for the camera, hold a can of Pepsi, and play football. Seems like Bush is looking out for number one and no one else. Texans did the right thing.

[Brando2101]

Also, what about the $5 million in endorsement deals that he is going to get. He has an obligation to those companies that are paying him. All he has to do is smile for the camera, hold a can of Pepsi, and play football. Seems like Bush is looking out for number one and no one else. Texans did the right thing.



He will get that money no matter what. It is not conditional on him playing football

[pgabriel]

wow. what a jackass.


some guys were calling 610 from new orleans yesterday and they were saying things reggie has done for the city, like keeping a special needs school open with his own money, and donating to keep their public school hs football stadium open, that had been damaged by standing water.

the dude may be getting some bad advice, but he's not a jack ass.

[mbiker]

He will get that money no matter what. It is not conditional on him playing football


I understand that, but people have moral obligations also. He is not getting endorsement deals because he is a cool guy. He is getting endorsement deals because fans will buy his product because he is a player in the NFL.

[The Real Shady]

I understand that, but people have moral obligations also. He is not getting endorsement deals because he is a cool guy. He is getting endorsement deals because fans will buy his product because he is a player in the NFL.

He had moral obligations to the agent who let his family stay in his house rent free and we know how that turned out.

[pgabriel]

I understand that, but people have moral obligations also. He is not getting endorsement deals because he is a cool guy. He is getting endorsement deals because fans will buy his product because he is a player in the NFL.


a moral obligation to play football?

you have a moral obligation to raise your kid. you have moral obligation to be a productive citizen. playing football has nothing to do with morals.

[Dark_Tower]

I do believe Kamerion Wimbley and Mario Williams are the only 2 first rounders that have been locked up to deals so far (at least, that's what ESPN told me on Sportscenter tonight).

I wouldn't look at it as a really big deal just yet. However, I was/am happy that we didn't take him after reading that Michael Smith article (for some reason, archives are Insider material; the beginnings of the article can be read here: http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2419503 ) Let him become someone else's headache...

Here's the full text to this story:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2419503

Let me begin by assuring you that, to my knowledge, I never have suffered a head injury, not even a minor one. I've never used/abused recreational or prescription drugs. And it has been well over a week since I last consumed any alcohol. Also rest assured that when I wrote the following, I did so with a straight face.

With the first pick of the 2006 NFL draft, the Houston Texans should not select running back Reggie Bush of Southern California. And my reason has nothing to do with the recent report that his family allegedly accepted extra benefits during Bush's junior season.

And sorry, Houstonians, this isn't another plea for the Texans to pass over Bush in favor of University of Texas quarterback (and hometown hero) Vince Young.

They shouldn't trade down, either, or they might miss out on the player they should take. Mario Williams, the North Carolina State defensive end, should be the Texans' pick.

Choosing Williams over Bush is the smart choice if not the most popular. It isn't that Williams is the better player; a college scouting director whom I swear by told me that Bush is the best player he's ever evaluated, that Bush received a rating one point below perfect on his scale, while Williams graded out one point behind Bush. So I believe the Texans are in fact torn between Bush and Williams, whom they have rated equally atop their draft board.

The choice of Williams comes down to whether the Texans want to sell tickets now or distribute Super Bowl tickets later.

Turn off your television, turn down your radio, put down your draft guide, and ignore the mock drafts. Look at the facts.

History teaches us that you don't need to draft a star running back as much as you need a running game to win a Super Bowl. The Steelers were the latest example, having won February's Super Bowl with a running back tandem of undrafted Willie Parker and 33-year-old Jerome Bettis.

Consider what happened (or didn't) this offseason with regard to several high-profile running backs. Indianapolis let Edgerrin James go as a free agent (the same James general manager Bill Polian drafted after he dealt Marshall Faulk to St. Louis, and the same Polian who, when he was in charge of the Bills, picked Thurman Thomas in Round 2). Shaun Alexander re-signed early with Seattle because the money was with the Seahawks and not on the open market. Free agents Jamal Lewis (Baltimore) and Ahman Green (Green Bay) ended up re-signing with their old clubs for short money.

The Texans should take Williams because he plays the position with more impact, D-end. Good running backs come in all sizes, shapes and rounds. Great pass rushers are rare. That's why backs don't get paid what ends do. Look, money talks: The highest franchise and transition numbers (the average salaries of, respectively, the top five and 10 highest-paid players at each position) belong to quarterbacks, followed by ends, linebackers, offensive linemen, wide receivers and then running backs. You might even argue that cornerbacks have more value than running backs. Two years ago, Denver dealt two-time 1,500-yard rusher Clinton Portis (a second-round pick, by the way) to Washington for corner Champ Bailey. Running backs, which have the shortest career span of any position, seem to come and go, often because teams decide to let them. New Texans coach Gary Kubiak knows this, having served as offensive coordinator in Denver, where the system -- the same one he's brought with him to Houston -- has produced five different 1,000-yard running backs (and a few yards short of two more last year) in Mike Shanahan's 11 years as head coach. None of those backs was a first-rounder. So Kubiak should be able to get plenty of production, if not the home runs, out of Domanick Davis (3,195 yards in three seasons), Vernand Morency, or whomever.

Granted, none of the backs mentioned is in Bush's league when it comes to acceleration and big-play ability. He's coming into the NFL being compared to all-time greats such as Sayers, Sanders and Faulk. Bush is special as a receiver and returner, too. He's instant offense. He's a game changer.

But even if he goes on to be the best ever, Bush still won't change the game. Championships still are won with defense.

From Pittsburgh, New England, Tampa Bay and Baltimore to the Giants, Bears, Steelers and Dolphins -- they all won Super Bowls with great defenses.

Adding Bush to a Texans offense that already features Davis, Andre Johnson and Eric Moulds potentially would give Houston one of the league's most explosive attacks. Texans' opponents: You will have problems. But I have a hard time imagining Houston's offense being any better than the Colts' and Chiefs' have been the past four, five years. And how many Super Bowls have they won? That's right. None. Reason No. 1 is that they're still working on pairing those high-powered offenses with comparable defenses.

Any good defense begins with an effective pass rush, which is why you don't pass up a chance to get a freak like Williams and why if you can help it you don't let the good ones go. Two years ago, the Giants acquired the No. 1 overall pick, Eli Manning, from the Chargers, but did so without general manager Ernie Accorsi's including a then-little-known defensive end by the name of Osi Umenyiora in the deal. Indianapolis let four-time 1,500-yard rusher James walk partly because it is going to need money to sign end Dwight Freeney. Notoriously frugal New England just broke the bank for Richard Seymour, perhaps the best defensive lineman in all of football.

A Jevon Kearse, a Julius Peppers, a Simeon Rice, a Michael Strahan, a Jason Taylor … the Bruce Smiths, the Reggie Whites … those are the type of player around whom you build your defense and your team. Obviously, White and Rice are the only Super Bowl winners of the bunch, but the rest -- except Taylor -- were defensive catalysts for teams that reached the championship.

The question is: What are the Texans trying to build? Short-term excitement or a title contender? Was owner Bob McNair sincere when he told the Texans' brain trust not to concern itself with selling tickets but, because winning fills seats, to select the best football player for the team long term?

Houston's first mission has to be to catch the Colts, whom the Texans haven't beaten in eight tries. The teams that give Indianapolis trouble (New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh) are the ones that pressure Peyton Manning.

Last year opposing quarterbacks completed nearly 65 percent of their passes and threw 24 touchdowns to just seven interceptions for an efficiency rating of 100.0 against Houston. The Texans lost six games last year in which they led in the second half, suffering five such defeats to end the season (and the Dom Capers era). Houston had the league's second-worst defense in 2005, its worst run defense, forced the fewest turnovers (16, none until the fifth game), and allowed a league-high 26.9 points per game.

So, Houston, you want to try your luck in a shootout with the Colts? Take Bush. Want to get to Manning? Get Williams.

The Texans are negotiating with the agents for both Bush and Williams, but I don't believe, as the skeptics do, that they're trying to use Williams to drive down Bush's price. I believe that, deep down, Kubiak and general manager Charley Casserly know what has to be done. I think they'd love to trade down a few slots, pick up a couple of picks, and still get Williams but they can't because no one wants to go up to the top spot and the Texans know passing Young and Bush won't be received well locally. Houston would never forgive the Texans if it turns out they picked Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.

Except the Texans would be picking Shaquille O'Neal.

"I've seen solid players, impact players," Titans coach Jeff Fisher told The (Nashville) Tennessean, "but nobody that has a potential to impact a defense like [Williams]."

The game hasn't seen a man of Williams' size (6-foot-7, 295 pounds and growing -- he could carry 310) and strength (35 reps of 225 on the bench press) who moves (40-yard dash time in 4.6 to 4.7 seconds, 40½-inch vertical jump) with the knee-bend that he does. Cross Peppers with Seymour and add a touch of Minnesota's Kevin Williams and you get this kid. Peppers, scouts say, was more fluid in his change of direction and a bit quicker than Williams but was not as physical and didn't have as good a motor coming out of North Carolina. There hasn't been a defensive end prospect with Williams' package in years. Asked to whom he would compare Williams, our college scouting director replied, "Nobody. I've never seen anybody like him."

Williams is that rare edge rusher who plays the run as well as he pursues the quarterback; he's no Freeney or Rice, i.e., a one-trick pony. Everyone talks about Bush's versatility but Williams not only can play but be effective all along the defensive line: at 4-3 base (left) end, 4-3 open-side (right, most often opposite the strong side) end, "three" technique (shading the guard's outside shoulder) tackle, or 3-4 end.

With Bush, you're talking 15-20 touches a game plus a few returns. Williams will play 60 snaps a game and give the Texans more for their money. Speaking of money, it's true the Texans have a lot of it invested in their defensive line. Travis Johnson and Jason Babin are former first-round picks, Antwan Peek will play for the first-round restricted tender this year, Robaire Smith was a big signing two years ago and Anthony Weaver just got $12.5 million to sign. Perhaps the last thing the Texans need to do is invest more money in their defensive line, but they don't have anyone like Williams.

No one does.

Another thing: Williams has more -- yes -- upside than Bush. He's 21 years old, still raw. Dare I say it: We may already have seen the best of Bush. I can't help but wonder if it's possible for him to look any better or even as good, and the same goes for Matt Leinart, without the line and the supporting cast he played with at USC. It's like, Tom Cruise stars in a lot of good movies, but you add Jack Nicholson, Kiefer Sutherland, Kevin Bacon and Demi Moore and you've got "A Few Good Men."

Wait until Williams gets NFL coaching and learns how to really use those long arms. At NC State the coaches didn't spend a lot of time teaching hand techniques and such. "I feel like the sky's the limit," Williams said.

Critics point to the fact that 13½ of Williams' 14½ sacks last season came in the Wolfpack's final seven games and wonder about his consistency. Williams offered an interesting explanation for that. It took him four games to figure out how to better deal with cut blocks. Instead of wasting time pushing down with both hands on blockers' shoulder pads and stepping around the block the way linemen are taught, Williams learned how to handle blockers with one hand or just hurdle them. He had three sacks in NC State's fifth game, against Wake Forest.

A longtime defensive line coach says that on film, Williams appears to be playing a bit "cautious." Williams concurred with the observation. At NC State, the ends' first responsibility was outside containment (bootlegs, reverses) and at one point they weren't even allowed to take an inside rush. That discipline might give the impression that Williams was taking plays off. "I don't feel like my play changed from the beginning of the season to the end of the season," he said. "Maybe my numbers were different, but I ran the same way."

In the short term, Williams wouldn't impact Houston's defense the way Bush would the Texans' offense. They'd still have a lot of holes on defense. The offense is on its way, ready to set it off. Still, the end is the way to go.

Williams says he'd like to go No. 1 overall, but he's more concerned about where his team picks in the future.

"I want to go to a team that's going to best utilize my abilities, so I can help them win a championship," he said, "and maybe next year we can be at the 32nd pick."

Bush or Williams? Williams or Bush? The Texans can't go wrong either way. But the right choice is Williams.

[Dark_Tower]

A few thoughts about the Reggie Bush situation:

The way the NFL slotting system works is like this: your contract as a draftee is based on the contract that was negotiated the year prior for your draft slot. So if you're the #2 pick like Reggie Bush, you start negotiations at the #2 pick figures from the year before. Ronnie Brown got $19.9million in guaranteed money at the #2 slot last year.

So if Reggie Bush takes a deal slotted at #2, he's going to swing at least $20 million dollars guaranteed. Now if Reggie takes say, $21-23 million guaranteed, he's set...and that doesn't even take into account any promotional or endorsment monies that he can gather.

However, Reggie Bush is trying to get #1 money at the #2 slot. Last year's #1, Alex Smith, got $24 million in guaranteed money. This year's #1, Mario Williams, got $26.5 guaranteed. Reggie could ask for $23 million to split the difference, and make that up on his endorsment fees. To me, that would be the long term solution - give up a little now so as not to jeporadize money in the long term. Reggie stands to lose around $10 million dollars if he goes back in the draft...that's what Matt Leinart was estimated to have lost by going #10 this year instead of #1 the year before.

But if Reggie insists on being paid #1 money and goes in the draft next year, he probably won't be the #1 or #2 pick...just ask Matt Leinart about his decision to stay for his senior year. In addition, if he goes back into the draft, he throws away his endorsment opprotunities and goodwill in the NO area.

At that point, not taking 20 million for the chance at 24 million guaranteed (Alex Smith's money last year), or even Mario Williams' deal (26.4 million guaranteed) is bad business. He'd lose far more money than he could gain by holding out for a year and re-entering the draft. Now THAT's pimping yourself out by being shortsighted. If he's about the money, his best bet would be to work a creative deal at #2 to maximize his money, rather than trying to hold out over a promise he should have known was valueless.

[pgabriel]

I don't always agree with mike smith, but he is probably the most well rounded and grounded writer and commentator at espn.


john McClain made an interesting point a couple of weeks ago that just shows how ludicrous bush's camp's position is. top tier d ends make more than top tier running backs. so he really has no case. defensive end is an important position, looking at past superbowl champs and just good teams overall, its more important than running back

johnny football also made that point that the colts kept freeney and paid him and sacraficed james, arguably the best running back in the league in the past five years.

[BMoney]

I guess the analogy here is that DL's are aircraft carriers and RB's are torpedos!

[DonnyMost]

I guess the analogy here is that DL's are aircraft carriers and RB's are torpedos!

That's pretty clever!

Most linemen have a long shelf life, and they can make a huge difference for over a decade.

Running backs? Well, rarely ever do they last more than 5 years. At least on a super-productive level.

Longevity Heirarchy:
Offensive Linemen
Defensive Linemen
Quarterbacks
Fullbacks
Linebackers
Wide Recievers
Defensive Backs
Running Backs
Texans coaches

:D

[Ric]

this was the concern the texans had that kept them from drafting bush: signability. they didn't want long negotiations. they didn't want a holdout. i would have gone a very different direction than the one they went with mario williams...but bush SEEMS to be making the texans' case for them, and that should help the texans in the court of public opinion.
nope, nope, nope - they were close enough with bush that mcnair had given casserly and kubiak the OK to draft either one. signability was not an issue with houston.

it's funny how bush is being villianized... he's only 1 of 30 unsigned first round picks, including the above-reproach vince young.

[Nick]

it's funny how bush is being villianized... he's only 1 of 30 unsigned first round picks, including the above-reproach vince young.

There's a good chance that more are signed if Reggie had signed by now, since the other rookie's agents are waiting to see how much that #2 pick pay-scale is going to be, so that their clients can fall in line behind it.

Unfortunately, the #2 pick thinks he should get MORE thane the #1 pick, thus screwing with the pay-scale considerably... THAT is why he is getting villianized, not simply because he hasn't signed yet.

[ima_drummer2k]

it's funny how bush is being villianized... he's only 1 of 30 unsigned first round picks, including the above-reproach vince young.
How many of those guys are asking for more money that the guy picked ahead of them? Serious question, I don't know.

Also, has this ever happened before? Has a #2 pick ever got more money than a #1 pick from the same draft? I can't remember it happening, but I could be wrong.

[Ric]

There's a good chance that more are signed if Reggie had signed by now, since the other rookie's agents are waiting to see how much that #2 pick pay-scale is going to be, so that their clients can fall in line behind it.
this is what i mean - that's absurd; where do you think the texans drew their parameters for MW from? thin air? no, they used last year's #1 pick's contract as their starting point. picks 2-32 are free to do the same. it's not rocket surgery.

Unfortunately, the #2 pick thinks he should get MORE thane the #1 pick, thus screwing with the pay-scale considerably...
i have not seen that confirmed by reggie's camp or the saints - have you?

and btw, if reggie getting more than the guy in front of him screws the pay scale... then isn't everyone behind him just as bad because they're holding out, waiting for bush's saga to play out so they, too, can get more $$? what's stopping vince young from doing a deal based on braylon edwards' deal from last year?

[rrj_gamz]

a #1 wanting #2 money...please...
ALthough, he will hold out to prove a point...HOwever, if the Texans picked him, we would have done the deal, overpriced or not, before the draft...

[Nick]

this is what i mean - that's absurd; where do you think the texans drew their parameters for MW from? thin air? no, they used last year's #1 pick's contract as their starting point. picks 2-32 are free to do the same. it's not rocket surgery.

The Texans did use the last few years #1 salaries and came up with a number. The Saints can also use the past numbers, as well as MW's contract as a way to determine what they should pay Bush... thus, why hasn't Bush signed that contract? Because they want more money.... more than what has been slotted for the #2 pick the past few years... and reports after the draft said more than what the Texans were paying Mario Williams.

Just being the #2 pick obviously hasn't changed team Bush's stance on what he should be paid... I don't really fault them for it (since 20+ other teams would have taken him #1, and paid him #1 money)... but it won't help their client's image much if it drags on into the season.


and btw, if reggie getting more than the guy in front of him screws the pay scale... then isn't everyone behind him just as bad because they're holding out, waiting for bush's saga to play out so they, too, can get more $$? what's stopping vince young from doing a deal based on braylon edwards' deal from last year?

C'mon... if u were an agent, would you honestly sign a contract for your #3 picked client, if the pick directly ahead of you had yet to sign? If Reggie does sign, and Vince still decides to hold out, believe me... he will be "just as bad." Also, if the Bush contract negotiations play out long enough, these guys will eventually sign the contract according to the expected pay-scale... and that will put even more pressure on Reggie Bush to sign.

Team Bush doesn't have many excuses right now for not signing... the contract parameters are pretty clear-cut for what the #2 pick in this year's draft should be getting. Why do you think they haven't signed?

[Ric]

The Saints can also use the past numbers, as well as MW's contract as a way to determine what they should pay Bush... thus, why hasn't Bush signed that contract? Because they want more money....
or, the saints aren't stepping up and making that offer. two sides here; one notoriously cheap and run by a real ass bag; let's not assume.

C'mon... if u were an agent, would you honestly sign a contract for your #3 picked client, if the pick directly ahead of you had yet to sign?
if i were VY's agent, i'd tell my client to give his ol' buddy ced benson a call to see if he'd recommend a hold-out. then i'd take last year's third pick, add a few million to account for vince being a QB and then sign the deal.

there are 30 unsigned first round picks. you could argue (unsuccessfully, imo) that bush is holding up 3-6 picks, perhaps. so what about the other 20 or so unsigned picks? it's league-wide.

[ktvoss]

Here's the full text to this story:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/columns/story?columnist=smith_michael&id=2419503
The Texans are negotiating with the agents for both Bush and Williams, but I don't believe, as the skeptics do, that they're trying to use Williams to drive down Bush's price. I believe that, deep down, Kubiak and general manager Charley Casserly know what has to be done. I think they'd love to trade down a few slots, pick up a couple of picks, and still get Williams but they can't because no one wants to go up to the top spot and the Texans know passing Young and Bush won't be received well locally. Houston would never forgive the Texans if it turns out they picked Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.

Except the Texans would be picking Shaquille O'Neal.


i think he meant hakeem olajuwon. :confused:

[pgabriel]

it's funny how bush is being villianized... he's only 1 of 30 unsigned first round picks, including the above-reproach vince young.

not only that but like you said, we are talking benson.

I don't know who's asking for what, but its funny, bush immediately endeared himself to saints fans with his and he's actually got fan support in new orleans. so holding out won't hurt him with his fans.

Its funny no matter what an owner is offering, fans are always gonna side with the team in these situations, unless its fans of the team. I don't agree with what he's doing, but I understand this is the nfl, and salaries are not slotted. yes there is a reference from just last year, but these are high dollar negotiations. let's wait to see what happens.

[SamFisher]

Not only is Bush hurting his teammates and the organization, but what about the fans in New Orleans that look to football as a relief of everyday events. We all know, well everyone but Bush, what happened in that city recently. Even a year after the hurricane there is still subdivision after subdivision abandoned. Some people that couldn’t afford insurance are still trying to save pennies for basic appliances. There are people that still have not found jobs because their company chose to not rebuild. If it was any other city except New Orleans I might give the guy a break, but this is ridiculous.

Also, what about the $5 million in endorsement deals that he is going to get. He has an obligation to those companies that are paying him. All he has to do is smile for the camera, hold a can of Pepsi, and play football. Seems like Bush is looking out for number one and no one else. Texans did the right thing.

Things like holdouts, injuries, suspensions etc are usually written in to his endorsement contracts where they can terminate/opt-out/etc, so don't shed any tears on their behalf.

[BigSherv]

What sucks is I have a feeling he will end up getting the money he demands.

It sucks though, this crap will start happening from now on.

[DonnyMost]

What sucks is I have a feeling he will end up getting the money he demands.

It sucks though, this crap will start happening from now on.

It's been going on since the mid to late 80s.

[pgabriel]

What sucks is I have a feeling he will end up getting the money he demands.

It sucks though, this crap will start happening from now on.


why does it suck. what does it have to do with you.

the nfl is arguably the best prodcut in pro sports, and they have the most leverage over their athletes. remember, this money, at least not near a 100%, is guaranteed. negotiating contracts is almost the only power these guys have. people mention nba rookie slotting system, the nfl has a long way to go before they get there because their contracts aren't guaranteed.

[Colt45]

or, the saints aren't stepping up and making that offer. two sides here; one notoriously cheap and run by a real ass bag; let's not assume.

While he IS an assbag, Benson has actually stepped up lately with regards to payroll. Top 10 over the past four years. And he's in, unquestionably, the worst situation of any owner in the NFL; miniscule market and horrible stadium (both venue and deal with the local gov) exacerbated by Katrina. On the other hand, he's got all that new season ticket-holder cash.

Bottom line, better Bush and the Saints in this mess than Bush and the Texans.

[Raven Lunatic]

there are 30 unsigned first round picks. you could argue (unsuccessfully, imo) that bush is holding up 3-6 picks, perhaps. so what about the other 20 or so unsigned picks? it's league-wide.

I don't think people are necessarily villifying Bush in this thread because he hasn't signed YET. It doesn't surprise me terribly that most of the 1st round is still unsigned. I think people are villifying Bush in this thread because, if this report is true, then he might hold out for most or all the year because he thinks he deserves more money than the guy that got drafted above him. As others have mentioned, a guy who plays a position that typically gets payed higher than his position and lasts longer. Not a lot of negotiating ground to stand on.

Personally, I don't put much stock in this article. I could easily see this being info leaked from the Saints in order to put some negotiation pressure on the Bush camp...maybe even to counteract the public favor Bush gained with his charitable acts in New Orleans. But if the season starts and it still looks like Bush is nowhere near signing, then yeah, I think he's thinking a little bit highly of himself.

And the same would go with Vince if he is still unsigned.

[Lynus302]

I'm having a real hard time understanding how this is remotely fair. Why wouldn't the NFL have some sort of provision in place to protect teams from a situation like this? It seems (to the uninformed like me, at any rate) like this type of model serves to create nothing but teams like the Yankees, who will always be on top because they are the only teams who can/will pay such ridiculous prices.

I feel sorry for 'Aints fans.

[Chuck 4]

"I feel sorry for 'Aints fans."

So Do I. And I am a Falcons fan. We hate the Saints. It really makes you appreciate having an owner like Arthur Blank and Bob McNair. Benson is a tool and should be removed. What really sucks for The Saints is that if he does sit out and re-enter next year, guess how much compensation the Saints get for his pick? Try ZERO. Poor fans...

NFL really needs to do something about this. Making set prices or something based off of your draft position. Never happen probaly...

[pradaxpimp]

Two sources said that talks between the Saints and agent Joel Segal have been nearly non-existent.


Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AuEIEr.KmFzZ9f_PReKSlK45nYcB?slug=jc-bush072106&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

I can't believe Bush signed with Joel Segal. I would've went with Ebert and Roeper. That tandem is incredible.

[Austin70]

I can't believe Bush signed with Joel Segal. I would've went with Ebert and Roeper. That tandem is incredible.


I don't know, Ebert hasn't been the same since his partner died. That being said, as someone who was very disapointed that the Texans did not draft Bush, this is good news to make me feel a little better.

[Raven Lunatic]

I can't believe Bush signed with Joel Segal. I would've went with Ebert and Roeper. That tandem is incredible.

They must have given him a thumbs down.

[KeepKenny]

Bush can "afford" to do this because he's already got a year's worth of salary in endorsements... but I doubt those stay around that long with the hit that his image will take if he sits out the season.


Bush's thinking doesn't make sense to me. The fact that he wants to be paid like a number 1 pick suggests he wants to maximize his wealth. Sitting out a year in order to get a slightly higher contract only hurts his wealth. The only thing that might make sense to me is that Bush just wants to get out and go somewhere else, considering the uncertainty of the team and owner. If it's about money, then I really doubt he sits out the year.

[pgabriel]

the bottom line is this, if he sits out a whole year, he won't make it up. even some team meets his demands, he won't make that money up so its no reason for him to miss the whole season.

[Ryan Bowen MVP]

I heard today there is a rumor going around that Reggie Bush is gay?

[Dubious]

It's just leverage seeking equilibrium at this point. What part of the Saints season ticket income is due to Reggie Bush mania? What's that worth over the standard #2 slot pick? Something.

Reggie can say OK I got to get in for the the team at any point and be a hero. A 25 million dollar guaranteed maybe.

[ak47]

espn reported the negotaions are suppose to "heatup" tommorow. He wants mario willams money.

[JunkyardDwg]

Hard bargaining on a deal for Reggie Bush will begin on Thursday, ESPN.com has learned, as New Orleans Saints officials and agent Joel Segal are scheduled to engage in what almost certainly will be the most substantive negotiations yet on a contract for the second overall choice in the draft.

The negotiating session, expected to be conducted by phone, comes on the day when Saints players are to report to training camp at Millsaps College near Jackson, Miss. The initial practice under first-year coach Sean Payton is on Friday, and it will take a monumental breakthrough in the Thursday bargaining to get the 2005 Heisman Trophy winner onto the field for that workout.

To this point, the two sides have discussed framework and concepts and perhaps even floated some dollar figures, but it is believed the Saints have yet to make a formal offer to the former Southern California star.

Bush is seeking a deal in the range of the six-year, $54 million contract that defensive end Mario Williams, the top overall selection in the draft, received from the Houston Texans. Based on discussions with Saints officials before the draft, those financial expectations may be warranted.

New Orleans would prefer to work off the contract signed by last year's second overall choice, Miami tailback Ronnie Brown, but those numbers aren't apt to sway Bush or his representative.

Compounding the negotiations for the Saints is the fact that Bush, who has embraced the hurricane-ravaged city of New Orleans and already made several sizeable donations to charities there, has banked $5 million to $7 million in various endorsement contracts negotiated by Mike Ornstein, his marketing agent.

That certainly alleviates the urgency for Bush to sign a contract quickly, since he already has considerable cash flow.

Bush said during the team's rookie minicamp in May that he wanted to be in camp on time and that he had instructed Segal to attempt to accomplish that goal. But only a few days later, Bush clarified his remarks, telling ESPN.com that any contract had to be a sound business decision.

There were reports last week that Bush might consider sitting out the entire 2006 season and re-entering the draft in 2007, but those were regarded as premature. Still, unless there is significant progress achieved quickly in negotiations, Bush's absence from camp could be a protracted one.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2530925

[rrj_gamz]

I doubt something will get done today...Over the weekend, maybe...It'll be a domino effect once Bush is signed...

[weslinder]

I don't know who is more stupid in this deal. Reggie Bush for wanting 1/4 of the team's payroll as a running back? Or the 'Aints for offering 1/5 of the team's payroll to a running back? Has anyone in this negiotiation paid attention to the NFL over the past 7 or 8 years? Running backs are positions where you stockpile lo-cost players.

[Stack24]

But he is the next coming of every player bionically made into one person. Give him the whole Saint Payroll before he takes a snap in the NFL

[gucci888]

With VY getting a contract worth more than Mario, I definitely see a Bush hold-out where he misses a signficant amount of training camp at a minimum.

If Bush wanted #1 pick money before VY signed his deal, he is definitely going to demand that at a minimum.

[jgreen91]

Why don't you guys think Bush deserves #1 money? He is clearly as good as or better than Mario Williams. He is the reason the saints fans have sold a record number of season tickets already, he is the reason saints fans and fans all around the world are buying Reggie Bush jerseys, he is going to make this organization a killing as far as money is concerned. The Saints were circling the drain and now they are on their way back up all because of one player, I think he deserves it not sure how anyone couldn't think that.

[Zac D]

Why don't you guys think Bush deserves #1 money?

Because he wasn't #1. I think it's really that simple.

[jgreen91]

Because he wasn't #1. I think it's really that simple.

If it is really that simple, then why did VY get #1 pick money? Was that just a Bud Adams thing? A fluke?

[Groogrux]

If it is really that simple, then why did VY get #1 pick money? Was that just a Bud Adams thing? A fluke?

Do you know what the Saints' current offer is?

[pgabriel]

unbelievable. another bs sports journalism article. just throwing crap against the wall to see if it sticks.