ClutchFans - [ESPN rumor] Ensberg to the Padres?

Rox Addict

07-16-2006, 12:17 AM

Rox Addict

07-16-2006, 12:22 AM

Stop. Everett's going no where.
Everette could be 0 for 1000 and the Astros would never trade him. He was 4-4 today and I hope he comes around but we need to start understanding that in The Pro's you have to do it all. Everette is paid to field the ball which he is definately one of the best at and hit the ball. He doesn't have to hit .300 but around .260 plus 8-10 hrs. Too many people take his side like 99% of this board but his bat needs to come around or the stros will always have that weak bat in the lineup cause your right he ain't goin nowhere....

EddieWasSnubbed

07-16-2006, 12:29 AM

I doubt Khalil Green could be had, but I would love to have him.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 12:38 AM

The only thing they have worth a dime in a hitter is Adrian Gonzales whos hitting .281 and has 15 hrs. Then Again theres Mike Piazza who can play 1st base and we know how bad Clemens wants him to come to houston.Seriously Piazza is hitting .269 with 13 hrs and like 45 RBI's. Adrian Gonzales would make sense because he plays 1st and you could put him there but then you take Lambs bat out of the lineup...Darn it Lamb why can't you play outfield.
Okay here goes:
3b - Lamb
1b - Gonzalez
RF - Huff
LF - Berkman
CF - Wilson

Nevermind there goes Burke now...Its too bad because even though Everette went 4-4 today he and Ausmus are the weak links of the lineup. I see nothing from the Padres because we need a Power Hitter and they only have one and he plays 1B....Oh Well we will see...

Please Get Soriano...!!!!!

actually, piazza was hitting almost .300 before tonight's game, and his #'s are in only 70 games, because they have catching depth (which is why he might be expendable). at 37, the guy can still mash as well as any catcher in the league. granted, your grandmother can probably steal a base on him, but that's really his only deficiency behind the plate in my opinion, and ausmus ain't much better at it anyway. what's funny is that ausmus is making like $4 million more than him.

i'm one that's against all the posters who concoct fantasy trades, but ensberg for piazza + a prospect or two or something like that would be a wet dream to me. we'd be replacing the league's worst-hitting catcher (and player) with probably the best. you could stick roger's butt-buddy bradley out there every 5th day to catch him and keep him happy (if he still even wants him as his catcher given the fact that we score zero runs every time he pitches).

also, there's no way they would even consider dealing adrian gonzales (he's 24), and we really don't have need for him anyway.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 12:40 AM

Stop. Everett's going no where.

nah, you're looking at it completely incorrectly. Khalil Greene is going nowhere.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 12:55 AM

linebrink could be the target.

The Cat

07-16-2006, 12:58 AM

I hope this doesn't happen; I think giving up on Ensberg at this point is the kind of premature move that would have us looking like complete fools a few years down the road.

But, if it does, rocketfat is probably right... I'd guess it's a Linebrink and prospects type of deal. SD does have some very solid upper level prospects... I'm not sure if any play catcher or center, but that's where we need help in the somewhat immediate future.

Fegwu

07-16-2006, 02:06 AM

Stop. Everett's going no where.

Is Green not more valuable and better [all around] than Everett?

Adam is a great fielder but I wonder about his range going left sometimes.

Oh well, I do not see anyone other than Green I would want on my team if we trade Morgan to the Pads.

The Real Shady

07-16-2006, 04:36 AM

I would perfer that the Astros hold on to Ensberg and trade him after he goes on one of his hot streaks so we can get maximum value, but he has been too inconsistent during his tenure with the Astros.

The Astros better plan on being able to sign Huff in the offseason if we do trade Ensberg.

Player News from ROTOWIRE
Jul. 11
News: Linebrink continues to be sought after by teams looking to bolster their bullpens before the July 31 non-waiver trade deadline, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

BigM

07-16-2006, 04:39 AM

unless the astros feel like he's not ever returning to form, i don't see anything that we could realistically get from the padres for him that i would want.

he was a terror in april and after two months of nothing he STILL has 18 homeruns and he can get one base. i don't understand how he could lose it so fast unless it's an injury. if it is the shoulder, why give up on him? maybe baseball is that humbling.

Rileydog

07-16-2006, 08:24 AM

The Real Shady

07-16-2006, 08:57 AM

Yes! Sell low, Buy high!

Gawd. Ensberg was 4th in mvp voting last year. For linebrink? didn't we cut his ass a few years ago?

Buster better be reaching. I have no problem with trading Ensberg, but I'd like more than unsalted potato chips in return.

Linebrink has been dominate in the pen since going to the Padres posting ERA's of 2.69 - 2006, 1.83 - 2005, 2.14 - 2004. But yes, I agree with you., don't sell low. Wait till Ensberg goes on a hot streak and then trade him.

MadMax

07-16-2006, 08:58 AM

the Padres have nothing i want.

everett is vastly underrated. mostly because people take defense for granted.

across110thstreet

07-16-2006, 09:26 AM

the title of this thread says ensberg but everyone is talking about everett... am i on crazy pills?

Joe Joe

07-16-2006, 10:29 AM

the Padres have nothing i want.

everett is vastly underrated. mostly because people take defense for granted.

I think this board has a sizable faction that overrates defense if they want even consider a replacement for Everett. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have Everett than a lot of SS's in the NL. With the unbalanced schedules, I haven't seen enough of Greene to recall how good he is defensively. His offensive stats would indicate he would have to be bad defensively not to make a positive impact on the Stros. If he is decent to good at SS, I don't see the Padres trading him cheaply.

Linebrink, on the other hand, I'm surprised he has done as well as he has since the Astros let him go. The Astros have a lot of options for the bullpen. A Lidge, Wheeler, Qualls, Linebrink, Nieve, and Wandy bullpen would seem good on paper to backup Oswalt, Clemens, Backe, Pettitte, and Buchholz.

EddieWasSnubbed

07-16-2006, 10:47 AM

With the unbalanced schedules, I haven't seen enough of Greene to recall how good he is defensively.
Just as good as Everett's.

TheBigSleep

07-16-2006, 11:05 AM

I would not trade Ensberg unless we got a Greene or Peavy in return. It is unlikely the Padres would let either of them go, but for Ensberg, I would want one of those two.

Which is why its unlikely to happen.

gunn

07-16-2006, 11:12 AM

the Padres have nothing i want.

everett is vastly underrated. mostly because people take defense for granted.

Come on Max, there has to be a point where the defense (as good as it is)does not compensate for the lack of any kind of offense. Everett may be at the top the list for SS defensively, but he is he is also at the bottom of the list for SS in OPS. I think something that Ric said that rings true is that having Ausmus and Everett in the 7th and 8th holes virtually gives the Astros 3 pitchers at the bottom of the line-up.

Those two, more often then not, completely kill any type of momentum the Stros are able to string together. It may be more easily afforded if the NL had the DH (which is a whole other topic in itself), but for the time being the Stros are playing 5 or 6 on 7 or 8. Sample last nights game where those two actually produced and look at the results.

Here is a quote from Garner after the 12-0 thrashing:

"That sure was fun, it hasn't happened very much," manager Phil Garner said. "Most of the time it's the top six of the batting order that does the damage. When they (Ausmus and Everett) can pitch in and get runs for us it gets us over the hump."

You say that Everett is "vastly underrated". I ask, in terms of what? As a complete player it seems to me that you are vastly "overrating" him.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 11:33 AM

I think this board has a sizable faction that overrates defense if they want even consider a replacement for Everett.

god bless you, Joe Joe. the voice of reason. i affectionately refer to those idiots as "blinded homers"(let's call them BH's for short!).

it's hilarious how little people understand the game. they read one guy's statistical analysis last season that spins everett's numbers so he's "far and away the best defensive ss in baseball", so now they are all over his jock, and say he's irreplacable. they don't understand that this is major league baseball. don't get me wrong, everett is a great defensive player, but the dropoff in abilities between him, and say, the "15th best defensive ss in the game" is so infinitesimal, and has such little impact on games won or lost, that it aint even funny. people who treat stats as gospel typically have very little common sense, from what i've observed. one of my favorite quotes came from the boards saddest BH, burzmali. he said that defensively, Everett and Vizquel "aren't even close". LOLOLOLOLOL.

the BH's on here have it beaten into their small brains that he is basically the equivilent of a shut-down corner in the nfl. that he's a game-changer (well, he is...but that's because of his ineptitude at the plate). that he saves runs that no other ss in the history of baseball would have saved, which leads to wins. all this is so far from true it's hilarious, and it makes me thank my parents for my upbringing and my brains whenever i read posters and their comments about "people who understand baseball know how valuable everett is to this team". the BH's think it is so damn chic to say that.

everett is entirely and easily replacable, people. the 8 less errors and the 10 extra balls he gets to by season's end really ain't as important as you want it to be over a 162 game season. there are 29 other starting SS's around the league, and i'm sure tons of backups, who are plenty capable of fielding a baseball as well, every last one of whom can swing a wooden bat better than everett.

like i said in another thread, over 100 world series have been one, MIRACULOUSLY all with a SS worse than everett defensively! go figure!

all that said, i dont know why this is on this thread. and there is no way that they would give us khalil greene. that leaves them with no ss. but talent-wise, greene vs. everett is a no-brainer.

Major

07-16-2006, 11:36 AM

Come on Max, there has to be a point where the defense (as good as it is)does not compensate for the lack of any kind of offense. Everett may be at the top the list for SS defensively, but he is he is also at the bottom of the list for SS in OPS. I think something that Ric said that rings true is that having Ausmus and Everett in the 7th and 8th holes virtually gives the Astros 3 pitchers at the bottom of the line-up.

While I agree his offense isn't worth much, Everett is batting 0.300 with a 0.350 OBP since June 1st when he got the shots for his back... That's a higher OBP than Wilson or Biggio, for example. He certainly is hitting for no power, but he's not exactly an automatic out.

DieHard Rocket

07-16-2006, 11:40 AM

No way should we trade Ensberg. Our lineup is lacking enough as it is, even with the addition of Huff. Let Ensberg get healthy and then re-evaluate him. If he gets back to his old self we could have a 3/4/5 of Berkman, Huff, and Ensberg all hitting well.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 11:42 AM

While I agree his offense isn't worth much, Everett is batting 0.300 with a 0.350 OBP since June 1st when he got the shots for his back... That's a higher OBP than Wilson or Biggio, for example. He certainly is hitting for no power, but he's not exactly an automatic out.

lol Major. Praise Biggio yesterday for his July-current performance, bash him today for his June-current performance. the beauty of skewing statistics to support your arguments.

Major

07-16-2006, 11:58 AM

lol Major. Praise Biggio yesterday for his July-current performance, bash him today for his June-current performance. the beauty of skewing statistics to support your arguments.

I think Biggio is mediocre - but you were the one complaining about his recent performance. And for a 2B, he's not really either an asset or a detrmient at this point. For July, he's been fantastic, so it seems like an odd time to complain about him.

Similarly, Everett has been fine for a while now - you can look at his July or June & July numbers - they are about the same. In terms of offense, the problem for the last month has been Ensberg, Lane, and Ausmus moreso than either Biggio or Everett. Ensberg has been removed, Lane is gone, and Ausmus in the 8 spot isn't really all that big a deal given the benefits to the pitching.

I would expect the offense to improve overall in the coming weeks if Burke and Lamb continue to get time in the field.

Major

07-16-2006, 11:59 AM

The Cat

07-16-2006, 12:03 PM

Unless you guys are willing to sit Preston (and y'all seemed intolerant of that idea when I suggested it a few days ago), there isn't room for Ensberg, Berkman and Huff. That's assuming there's no way Lamb is benched, and I can't imagine that given that he's a lefty and how he's currently hitting.

Between Huff, Ensberg, Lamb and Wilson... as good as they might play... you can only start three of them on a regular basis. I'd love it if they would trade Lamb or Wilson instead of Morgan, but I can see why they're entertaining the thought of a trade in this particular situation.

I'll say it again: I don't want to trade Morgan. But if we do, Scott Linebrink is a stud. I really question those of you saying the Padres have nothing we need... this bullpen has been a liability since Day 1 and you're looking at one of the better relievers in the league. We could definitely use him. Now, I don't think it's worth giving up a 30+ HR third baseman for any reliever. But, say, if you could get the Padres to package Linebrink and a catching prospect like George Kotteras (this guy is in AAA and is supposed to be fantastic, lefty as well), it's worth thinking about.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 12:11 PM

Where did I bash Biggio, by the way?

you used his july-now success in support of your argument yesterday, and his june-now deficiency in support of your argument today.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 12:14 PM

I'll say it again: I don't want to trade Morgan. But if we do, Scott Linebrink is a stud. I really question those of you saying the Padres have nothing we need... this bullpen has been a liability since Day 1 and you're looking at one of the better relievers in the league. We could definitely use him. Now, I don't think it's worth giving up a 30+ HR third baseman for any reliever. But, say, if you could get the Padres to package Linebrink and a catching prospect like George Kotteras (this guy is in AAA and is supposed to be fantastic, lefty as well), it's worth thinking about.

i know nothing about Kotteras, but that sounds like an unbelievable trade, and i'd do it in a heartbeat, and i think it would even be a decent trade if we KNEW ensberg would round back into form. huff isn't going to be a beltran case...he'd probably sign an extension right now if we offered it.

desihooper

07-16-2006, 12:18 PM

I think this is the first time I've heard of the Astros trading Ensberg. San Diego is involved in a lot of rumors because I think they're trying to put a winning club into that new ballpark. The beauty and novelty of a new ballpark has probably worn off, and they need to put a winner on the field.

I wouldn't mind sending them two California boys (Ensberg and Lane) if we can get back some bullpen help and maybe some prospects.

Linebrink has been awesome for the Padres since we traded him away.

The Cat

07-16-2006, 12:18 PM

i know nothing about Kotteras, but that sounds like an unbelievable trade, and i'd do it in a heartbeat, and i think it would even be a decent trade if we KNEW ensberg would round back into form. huff isn't going to be a beltran case...he'd probably sign an extension right now if we offered it.

Scouts compare Kotteras to Brad Ausmus behind the plate paired with the bat of Jorge Posada. He's a stud.

That said, you're right... I'm reaching. That would be stacked in our favor. But, it's worth exploring... there were a couple of articles last week saying the Padres were considering moving Kotteras to help their 3B situation. We'd probably have to add something more from our end to make it reasonable, but you never know... look at the Reds/Nationals trade last week. Sometimes GMs do silly things when they're desperate, and maybe that's what the Padres are. Either way, when healthy Ensberg is one of the top five or so 3B in the league with great power and OBP... if we deal him, we need to get value for that.

Major

07-16-2006, 12:30 PM

you used his july-now success in support of your argument yesterday, and his june-now deficiency in support of your argument today.

Except I never said it was a deficiency - I just said that Everett was better than him in OBP over that time. That doesn't mean Biggio is bad - just that Everett has been pretty good.

kaleidosky

07-16-2006, 12:41 PM

so far it's jus ta projection by Buster.. nothing with a real rumor yet

Kerfeld

07-16-2006, 12:46 PM

linebrink could be the target.

I hope they get more than Linebrink for Ensberg.

Joe Joe

07-16-2006, 01:16 PM

Rox Addict

07-16-2006, 01:44 PM

I hope they get more than Linebrink for Ensberg.
I agree..Linebrink and Piazza ...

dskillz

07-16-2006, 02:17 PM

I doubt Khalil Green could be had, but I would love to have him.

I agree, the only way the Padres will get rid of Khalil is if they are having a Marlins-like fire sale.

Hottoddie

07-16-2006, 03:39 PM

Our bullpen needs a major overhaul. I'd love to get some solid middle relief pitching & dump some of the slugs we have in there now. Linebrink would be a good start.

If, as The Cat says, Kotteras is that good, then I'd be ecstatic to see us pick him up. I haven't exactly been impressed with Purpura's moves up until the Huff acquisition. Maybe, he's about to turn the corner & become the GM that Hunsicker was.

SEAN THOMPSON (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Sean%20Thompson&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=434581)

San Diego has another young pitcher on their AA farm team (Mobile) by the name of Sean Thompson. In 18 starts, he's pitched 105 innings, given up 99 hits, only 26 BB's & 86 K's, with an ERA of 3.43. Statistically speaking, at 23 years of age, he looks promising.

LUIS CRUZ (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Luis%20Cruz&pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=458501)

They also have a young (22 y/o) SS by the name of Luis Cruz. He's got an OPS of .773, but he does commit a lot of errors (17 in 86 games).

msn

07-16-2006, 04:23 PM

god bless you, Joe Joe. the voice of reason. i affectionately refer to those idiots as "blinded homers"(let's call them BH's for short!).

it's hilarious how little people understand the game. they read one guy's statistical analysis last season that spins everett's numbers so he's "far and away the best defensive ss in baseball", so now they are all over his jock, and say he's irreplacable. they don't understand that this is major league baseball. don't get me wrong, everett is a great defensive player, but the dropoff in abilities between him, and say, the "15th best defensive ss in the game" is so infinitesimal, and has such little impact on games won or lost, that it aint even funny. people who treat stats as gospel typically have very little common sense, from what i've observed. one of my favorite quotes came from the boards saddest BH, burzmali. he said that defensively, Everett and Vizquel "aren't even close". LOLOLOLOLOL.

the BH's on here have it beaten into their small brains that he is basically the equivilent of a shut-down corner in the nfl. that he's a game-changer (well, he is...but that's because of his ineptitude at the plate). that he saves runs that no other ss in the history of baseball would have saved, which leads to wins. all this is so far from true it's hilarious, and it makes me thank my parents for my upbringing and my brains whenever i read posters and their comments about "people who understand baseball know how valuable everett is to this team". the BH's think it is so damn chic to say that.

everett is entirely and easily replacable, people. the 8 less errors and the 10 extra balls he gets to by season's end really ain't as important as you want it to be over a 162 game season. there are 29 other starting SS's around the league, and i'm sure tons of backups, who are plenty capable of fielding a baseball as well, every last one of whom can swing a wooden bat better than everett.

like i said in another thread, over 100 world series have been one, MIRACULOUSLY all with a SS worse than everett defensively! go figure!

all that said, i dont know why this is on this thread. and there is no way that they would give us khalil greene. that leaves them with no ss. but talent-wise, greene vs. everett is a no-brainer.
What a stupid post. Anyone that disagrees with you is "blind". I guess that includes the Astros management, and every manager that ever started Ozzie Smith for the first decade of his career, too.

Now excuse me, I have to get my white cane and piss this drivel I just read into the toilet.

For the record before I go, Everett *is* overrated. BUT--no way I'd take him over Khalil Greene. Adam's the best option the Astros have on *their* roster for SS, but I'd do back flips if they were to add Greene (not that I see that happening).

msn

07-16-2006, 04:25 PM

For the record before I go, Everett *is* overrated. BUT
Speaking of stupid, I mistyped that, meant to say that is underrated. That because most folks make offense a god and forget that you also have get 27 guys out to win a game.

gwayneco

07-16-2006, 04:31 PM

Speaking of stupid, I mistyped that, meant to say that is underrated. That because most folks make offense a god and forget that you also have get 27 guys out to win a game.

You seem to have forgotten that you have 27 outs to score more runs than the other team. Outs are precious and shouldn't be wasted so non-chalantly.

msn

07-16-2006, 04:47 PM

You seem to have forgotten that you have 27 outs to score more runs than the other team. Outs are precious and shouldn't be wasted so non-chalantly.
Not so. I used the word "also". The difference in value people place on defense has been well-covered (ad nauseum) here.

rocketfat

07-16-2006, 05:29 PM

Not so. I used the word "also". The difference in value people place on defense has been well-covered (ad nauseum) here.

alright, BH....what do you think this team needs more: the best defensive ss in the history of baseball, or somebody who knows how to hit?

gwayneco

07-16-2006, 07:29 PM

Not so. I used the word "also". The difference in value people place on defense has been well-covered (ad nauseum) here.

People who defend Everett act like the choice is between the best defensive SS in baseball history and a bronze statue of Honus Wagner. Sorry, only pitchers get a pass when it comes to hitting. Everyone needs to produce.

robbie380

07-17-2006, 12:25 AM

jesus guys...do we have to take this to d&d? I open this thread expecting to see talk on ensberg and 3 of 4 posts are about our craptastic shortstop.

OldManBernie

07-17-2006, 02:51 AM

jesus guys...do we have to take this to d&d? I open this thread expecting to see talk on ensberg and 3 of 4 posts are about our craptastic shortstop.

Craptastic shortstop, eh? Obviously, you don't like Everett either. So... why do you hate him? :D

lpbman

07-17-2006, 03:36 AM

bonus points to all who use the word "craptastic"

msn

07-17-2006, 08:08 AM

alright, BH
Your ad hominem only weakens your already poor argument.

People who defend Everett act like the choice is between the best defensive SS in baseball history and a bronze statue of Honus Wagner.
No, people who whine constantly that the lineup doesn't have .280+ hitters at every spot exaggerate the position of those who understand Everett's value.

Sorry, only pitchers get a pass when it comes to hitting. Everyone needs to produce.
I'd be more inclined to listen to this bitching if major league franchises agreed, but it appears they don't.

gwayneco

07-17-2006, 09:08 AM

Your ad hominem only weakens your already poor argument.

No, people who whine constantly that the lineup doesn't have .280+ hitters at every spot exaggerate the position of those who understand Everett's value.

I'd be more inclined to listen to this bitching if major league franchises agreed, but it appears they don't.

Half of Everett's job is to catch the ball and the other half is to hit it. He's very good at one, but an abysmal failure at the other. That's makes him, at best, a marginally decent player.

msn

07-17-2006, 09:17 AM

msn

07-17-2006, 09:44 AM

An example, here's Dierker mentioning both sides of the argument:

As a pitcher, I would prefer to have Lance Berkman playing first base with Willy Taveras in centerfield and Adam Everett at short. I'd take my chances with a weaker offense and try to weaken my opponent with good pitching and fielding.

It is obvious that you need to be at least adequate in all areas to make the playoffs. Even Roger Clemens had trouble winning last year with a puny offensive team behind him.

http://blogs.chron.com/larrydierker/
Yet, he'd take his chances with the weaker offense.

LongTimeFan

07-17-2006, 09:49 AM

Yet, he'd take his chances with the weaker offense.

And get fired again! :p

gwayneco

07-17-2006, 09:54 AM

You act like half of his job is to be Lance Berkman. He's the 8 hitter, for cryin' out loud.

Half of every non-pitchers job is to hit. You could make an exception with catchers since their job involves playing defense on every pitch as well as calling the game, but no one else gets that excuse.

robbie380

07-17-2006, 09:57 AM

You act like half of his job is to be Lance Berkman. He's the 8 hitter, for cryin' out loud.

being the 8 hitter doesn't give an excuse to be nearly worthless on offense. yes we all know everett is a fine defensive player but he is a big MINUS on offense. isn't he the worst offensive shortstop in baseball? i really cannot think of a worse hitter. i guess if neifi perez is playing SS then he is worse.

msn

07-17-2006, 10:03 AM

being the 8 hitter doesn't give an excuse to be nearly worthless on offense. yes we all know everett is a fine defensive player but he is a big MINUS on offense. isn't he the worst offensive shortstop in baseball? i really cannot think of a worse hitter. i guess if neifi perez is playing SS then he is worse.
Agreed about his offense not being what we want it to be--that's why I'd be thrilled to have Greene, who's not much of a downgrade on the field and is a bit of an upgrade with the bat. But that doesn't make Everett "worthless" or even "marginal". Ask any pitcher--don't ask an armchair GM or a talking head; ask someone who actually plays the game.

geeimsobored

07-17-2006, 10:11 AM

You act like half of his job is to be Lance Berkman. He's the 8 hitter, for cryin' out loud.

I believe a couple of years ago Bill Mueller won the batting title in the American League, while batting 9th in the order.

MadMax

07-17-2006, 10:15 AM

People who defend Everett act like the choice is between the best defensive SS in baseball history and a bronze statue of Honus Wagner. Sorry, only pitchers get a pass when it comes to hitting. Everyone needs to produce.

and people on the other side of the argument act as if the choice is between a .280 hitter and a guy who can't hit at all.

gwayneco

07-17-2006, 10:33 AM

and people on the other side of the argument act as if the choice is between a .280 hitter and a guy who can't hit at all.

An OBP of .297 and a SLG of .325 is pretty much a guy who can't hit at all.

Burzmali

07-17-2006, 10:46 AM

Half of Everett's job is to catch the ball and the other half is to hit it. He's very good at one, but an abysmal failure at the other. That's makes him, at best, a marginally decent player.

Your statement is incorrect. Because of the position he plays and where he hits in the lineup, his defensive contributions far outweigh the significance of his offensive production.

If David Ortiz were to be playing in the National League at first base, would you say that half of his job is to field and half of his job is to hit? He's very good at one, but an abysmal failure at the other. Would that make him a "marginally decent player"? Nope, not at all. He'd still be a superstar because defense at first base is non-critical.

MadMax

07-17-2006, 10:49 AM

robbie380

07-17-2006, 10:52 AM

Agreed about his offense not being what we want it to be--that's why I'd be thrilled to have Greene, who's not much of a downgrade on the field and is a bit of an upgrade with the bat. But that doesn't make Everett "worthless" or even "marginal". Ask any pitcher--don't ask an armchair GM or a talking head; ask someone who actually plays the game.

i guess that's putting it nicely by saying "his offense not being what we want it to be". also, greene would be much more than a bit of an upgrade at the plate. i don't know if you have actually looked at his numbers but he is pretty good outside of PETCO. now i hate "projecting" numbers but we are talking about a player who had a chance to hit 20 hrs and have 85 rbis last year while having PETCO as a home stadium.

Greene's career split stats (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7233/splits;_ylt=AuqayLitt_DE9Xj5OM1wgYiFCLcF?year=career&type=Batting)

us getting greene would be amazing but it is never going to happen.

Burzmali

07-17-2006, 10:57 AM

god bless you, Joe Joe. the voice of reason. i affectionately refer to those idiots as "blinded homers"(let's call them BH's for short!).

it's hilarious how little people understand the game. they read one guy's statistical analysis last season that spins everett's numbers so he's "far and away the best defensive ss in baseball", so now they are all over his jock, and say he's irreplacable. they don't understand that this is major league baseball. don't get me wrong, everett is a great defensive player, but the dropoff in abilities between him, and say, the "15th best defensive ss in the game" is so infinitesimal, and has such little impact on games won or lost, that it aint even funny. people who treat stats as gospel typically have very little common sense, from what i've observed. one of my favorite quotes came from the boards saddest BH, burzmali. he said that defensively, Everett and Vizquel "aren't even close". LOLOLOLOLOL.

the BH's on here have it beaten into their small brains that he is basically the equivilent of a shut-down corner in the nfl. that he's a game-changer (well, he is...but that's because of his ineptitude at the plate). that he saves runs that no other ss in the history of baseball would have saved, which leads to wins. all this is so far from true it's hilarious, and it makes me thank my parents for my upbringing and my brains whenever i read posters and their comments about "people who understand baseball know how valuable everett is to this team". the BH's think it is so damn chic to say that.

everett is entirely and easily replacable, people. the 8 less errors and the 10 extra balls he gets to by season's end really ain't as important as you want it to be over a 162 game season. there are 29 other starting SS's around the league, and i'm sure tons of backups, who are plenty capable of fielding a baseball as well, every last one of whom can swing a wooden bat better than everett.

like i said in another thread, over 100 world series have been one, MIRACULOUSLY all with a SS worse than everett defensively! go figure!

all that said, i dont know why this is on this thread. and there is no way that they would give us khalil greene. that leaves them with no ss. but talent-wise, greene vs. everett is a no-brainer.

You're part of a group I like to call the "Most Offensively Retarded Opinionated Negativists", (let's call them MORONs for short!)

It's hilarious how much you think you know, in relation to how much you actually know. Do you comprehend the defensive importance of having a solid fielding shortstop? Do you comprehend the fact that a #8 hitter need not be a solid producer?

You say that the difference between the top rated fielder and the 15th rated fielder is "infinitesimal", which is defined as the mathematical inverse of infinity. Any proof to your claim that there is pretty much no difference between Everett and a piss poor shortstop like Jeter? Because there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

The MO of you MORONs is to make wild claims with no supporting evidence. Then you decry the importance of statistical evidence, which accomplishes two things. You seek to invalidate the factual evidence supporting the ideas that you disagree with, while at the same time remove the need to support your own ideas with any objective evidence because reliance on statistics lacks "common sense". Weak, tired, enough.

Probably the most irritating thing is this fascination you have with your intelligence, and the relative intelligence of others on this board.

Are you in middle school, high school, college, have a job? What did you scoreon the SATs, MCAT, LSAT, etc.? We'd like to know just how smart you are, so that we can respect you accordingly. I'm guessing you're about as intelligent as the average kid in your 8th grade class, which isn't bad.

VesceySux

07-17-2006, 11:00 AM

Of MLB shortstops with 250+ ABs, Adam Everett ranks....

- 23rd in AVG
- 27th in SLG
- 25th in Hits
- 25th in HRs
- 22nd in OBP
- 16th in RBIs
- 27th in Runs
- 27th in Total Bases
- 17th in BBs
- 22nd in SO (lower rank is better)

And keep in mind, I didn't include Julio Lugo, who has 248 ABs (2 off my arbitrary cut-off) and would bump Everett down a rank in pretty much every category. The numbers don't lie: Everett flat-out sucks with the bat. However, Everett's .990 fielding percentage is #2 overall for everyday shortstops (behind Omar Vizquel's .992), and his 4 errors puts him at #3 in the league for everyday shortstops behind Vizquel (3) and Alex Gonzalez (3). Also, Everett is #2 in the league in DPs turned with 70 (behind Tejada's 72).

So, honestly, both camps have a case to be made for/against Everett. He's the 2nd-best defensive shortstop in the league (behind Vizquel) with just about the worst offensive numbers among regular shortstops. It's just that extreme, folks. Too bad Everett can't hit like Vizquel, who's hitting .296...

robbie380

07-17-2006, 11:05 AM

You're part of a group I like to call the "Most Offensively Retarded Opinionated Negativists", (let's call them MORONs for short!)

It's hilarious how much you think you know, in relation to how much you actually know. Do you comprehend the defensive importance of having a solid fielding shortstop? Do you comprehend the fact that a #8 hitter need not be a solid producer?

You say that the difference between the top rated fielder and the 15th rated fielder is "infinitesimal", which is defined as the mathematical inverse of infinity. Any proof to your claim that there is pretty much no difference between Everett and a piss poor shortstop like Jeter? Because there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

The MO of you MORONs is to make wild claims with no supporting evidence. Then you decry the importance of statistical evidence, which accomplishes two things. You seek to invalidate the factual evidence supporting the ideas that you disagree with, while at the same time remove the need to support your own ideas with any objective evidence because reliance on statistics lacks "common sense". Weak, tired, enough.

Probably the most irritating thing is this fascination you have with your intelligence, and the relative intelligence of others on this board.

Are you in middle school, high school, college, have a job? What did you scoreon the SATs, MCAT, LSAT, etc.? We'd like to know just how smart you are, so that we can respect you accordingly. I'm guessing you're about as intelligent as the average kid in your 8th grade class, which isn't bad.

i am seriously trying to find the stats that back up AE being a dominant defensive shortstop. aren't the typical metrics range factor and zone rating? further how do you determine how many runs a year he saves v. how many he loses at the plate?

pgabriel

07-17-2006, 11:06 AM

Good post vesceysux.

Burzmali

07-17-2006, 11:33 AM

i am seriously trying to find the stats that back up AE being a dominant defensive shortstop. aren't the typical metrics range factor and zone rating? further how do you determine how many runs a year he saves v. how many he loses at the plate?

STATS inc did a new study. The Fielding Bible details the important stuff.

Everett ranks as tops in the majors the last three years, Michael Young ranked dead last in 2005.

They also did a direct comparison between Everett and Jeter, to prove that Gold Gloves are a bs award. Jeter is horrendous at everything except fly balls.

imoffg33

07-17-2006, 11:45 AM

Your statement is incorrect. Because of the position he plays and where he hits in the lineup, his defensive contributions far outweigh the significance of his offensive production.

If David Ortiz were to be playing in the National League at first base, would you say that half of his job is to field and half of his job is to hit? He's very good at one, but an abysmal failure at the other. Would that make him a "marginally decent player"? Nope, not at all. He'd still be a superstar because defense at first base is non-critical.

NO NO NO NO !!!!!
you remind me of this guy who called in 790 and tried to tell everyone why everett is more important to the team than berkman. maybe you are him. listen, sure everett is a great DEFENSIVE shortstop, but listen the guy is more of a liability than ray ordonez.
we dont need this spectacular defensive shortstop to win. in fact we arent going anywhere with everett. if you go into a game you dont want to bottom of your lineup to be a solid 3 outs everytime through the lineup. guess what, that's what it is now.
the way that the astros fans turned on ensberg is completely rediculous. the guy has been playing with a shoulder injury since april. the part where u should be bashing ensberg is the fact that he didnt tell the organization and go on the dl sooner. he is a major asset to our team and it would be rediculous to trade him unless we get the pieces to our puzzle in return.
such as:
ensberg and tavares for green, linebrink, and barfield.

that is about the only way that we let ensberg go
the reports are that the marlins want tavares and maybe we can get some young pitching out of the deal. we need it.

our lineup would be awesome like this:
c- ausmus
1b- lamb
2b- burke
ss- everett
3b- ensberg
rf- berkman
cf- wilson
lf- huff

Raven Lunatic

07-17-2006, 12:21 PM

if you go into a game you dont want to bottom of your lineup to be a solid 3 outs everytime through the lineup. guess what, that's what it is now.

Guess what? That's the way it was last season. You know, the one where we went to the world series?

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 12:26 PM

STATS inc did a new study. The Fielding Bible details the important stuff.

Everett ranks as tops in the majors the last three years, Michael Young ranked dead last in 2005.

They also did a direct comparison between Everett and Jeter, to prove that Gold Gloves are a bs award. Jeter is horrendous at everything except fly balls.

gonna ignore all your insults because everybody on this board is well aware what a boob you are and how i've already owned you over and over again, but just answer this, you sad, sad, sad being:

HOW THE **** CAN A TEAM WITH A PATHETIC DEFENSIVE SS LIKE DEREK JETER WIN 4 WORLD SERIES??????????????????????????????

O
W
N
E
D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

let me explain something to you burzmali. you have never come up with a thought on your own. NEVER. all you do is quote somebody else's analysis. see if you can comprehend this: i am willing to grant you the fact that Adam Everett is far and away the greatest defensive SS in MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HISTORY (he isn't, but for arguments sake, to put things into perspective for somebody with the cognitive capacity of my ballsac, we will say he is). ok?

now....in all the millions of references to your beloved statisticians, you seem to have passed over the most pertinent analysis, and only pertinent analysis, that could be compiled: does having the greatest defensive ss in the league translate into winning.

here's where the common sense kicks in, my brainless little buddy. i don't have to see any statistician's analysis to know that it matters not one damn bit. simply run down the list of world series winners, and i'm sure you'd say they are all inferior ss's to adam everett. it's really that simple!

here's something else to ponder: your idol, billy beane, who you worship the ground he walks on, and is the reason for all your obsessive referencing of statisticians, has, over the past 10 years, started 2 "awful" (as you would term them) defensive ss's in bobby crosby (who his rookie year showed signs of becoming a great offensive producer), and miguel tejada, who is pure offense.

doesn't that boggle your mind? the man you deify, the man whose moves and words you treat as gospel, isn't interested one lousy bit in acquiring a premiere defensive ss??? how is that possible?

buddy, every single point i make puts you to shame. it is obvious that you have no original thought and opinions, just pick and choose what others say, and adopt their thoughts as your own.

ya can't see the forest for the trees, kid. accept that. accept that i'm smarter than you, accept that i'm always right, and accept that you understand little to nothing about the game of baseball.

good night.

BranJ17

07-17-2006, 12:37 PM

our lineup would be awesome like this:
c- ausmus
1b- lamb
2b- burke
ss- everett
3b- ensberg
rf- berkman
cf- wilson
lf- huff

ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?!?!

Basically this comes down to Preston Wilson v. Craig Biggio.

What is your fascination with Preston Wilson? Is it that he strikes out a TON and walks NONE?

Lets let the #s do the talking....

P. Wilson .281 avg, 8 hrs, .320 obp , .418 slg, 84 ks, 19 walks
C. Biggio .271 avg, 8 hrs, .334 obp, .424 slg, 45 ks, 27 walks

The ONLY thing Wilson does better is hit for a higher average, and batting average IMO is an over-rated stat. Especially when you need guys on this team to get on base for the Berkmans, Lambs, and Huffs on this team. Biggio at a traditionally weak hitting position SLUGS better than our CORNER OUTFIELDER. It is CLEAR that Biggio is a way better option than Preson Wilson offensively.

Defensively, Preston Wilson has been a poor defensive CF for his entire career and Burke in CF is a better option while Biggio still plays average to above average defense. Let us not forget how many Gold Gloves this guy has won over his career.

Baqui99

07-17-2006, 12:52 PM

So, honestly, both camps have a case to be made for/against Everett. He's the 2nd-best defensive shortstop in the league (behind Vizquel) with just about the worst offensive numbers among regular shortstops. It's just that extreme, folks. Too bad Everett can't hit like Vizquel, who's hitting .296...

I think part of the problem is the 7-8-9 tandem of Assmus, Everett, and the pitcher spot. If those nonproducers are up in the bottom of the ninth, you might as well pack it up and go home. I can live with having Everett in the everyday lineup, but when Assmus is there as well, that's just too many holes in the order.

Groogrux

07-17-2006, 12:57 PM

If those nonproducers are up in the bottom of the ninth, you might as well pack it up and go home.

Yeah, like last year when they packed it up and went home instead of going to the World Series?

desihooper

07-17-2006, 01:01 PM

Back to the original topic... here's something from cnnsi today:

It's no surprise that the Padres are drawing strong interest for stellar setup man Scott Linebrink. He could be dealt to the Braves for third baseman Wilson Betemit, although three-way scenarios are still being discussed.

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/07/17/scoop.giambi/1.html)

Wonder if that's someone the Astros are targetting and if the Pads would be willing to talk about a trade for Ensberg.

MadMax

07-17-2006, 01:15 PM

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 01:22 PM

is everyone forgetting that we went to the world series last season? that we were a game away from the world series the year before? where am i??
yeah..you can't win with adam everett in the lineup...despite the fact it's been done, you just can't do it. :confused:

are you forgetting the fact that we were a game away from the world series the year before with Jose Vizcaino as our SS? i guess you are you silly goose!

we went to the world series last year in spite of adam everett, and because of our pitching. we got swept in the world series because of our inability to score runs. that is the area of our team which needs improvement.

imoffg33

07-17-2006, 01:23 PM

ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?!?!

Basically this comes down to Preston Wilson v. Craig Biggio.

What is your fascination with Preston Wilson? Is it that he strikes out a TON and walks NONE?

Lets let the #s do the talking....

P. Wilson .281 avg, 8 hrs, .320 obp , .418 slg, 84 ks, 19 walks
C. Biggio .271 avg, 8 hrs, .334 obp, .424 slg, 45 ks, 27 walks

The ONLY thing Wilson does better is hit for a higher average, and batting average IMO is an over-rated stat. Especially when you need guys on this team to get on base for the Berkmans, Lambs, and Huffs on this team. Biggio at a traditionally weak hitting position SLUGS better than our CORNER OUTFIELDER. It is CLEAR that Biggio is a way better option than Preson Wilson offensively.

Defensively, Preston Wilson has been a poor defensive CF for his entire career and Burke in CF is a better option while Biggio still plays average to above average defense. Let us not forget how many Gold Gloves this guy has won over his career.

haha my fascination with wilson. humm... other than i sit outside his window at nights? well how about over the past month he has been a better hitter. also, his natural position is center field. (that's the position that he played his entire mlb career)
biggio is hitting .233 with 2 hr and 8 rbi in the last month
wilson is hitting .293 with 2 hr and 13 rbi in the last month
sorry, but wilson is just hitting better
my fascination would be with the awesome pickup of huff. how great is that?!?!?!

imoffg33

07-17-2006, 01:26 PM

is everyone forgetting that we went to the world series last season? that we were a game away from the world series the year before? where am i??
yeah..you can't win with adam everett in the lineup...despite the fact it's been done, you just can't do it. :confused:

yes we went to the world series last season. you are so right. the problem is that we are getting in this groove as astros fans, and we assume that our team is going to struggle until they somehow get to the playoffs, and than they find a way to win. not to fall into the category of "what have you done for me now", but they arent' the same team. our hitting is way below where it was last season. unless our bats come around, it isnt going to happen again.
oh and did u forget that we were swept in the world series?

imoffg33

07-17-2006, 01:28 PM

this is rediculous.
WE WERE SWEPT IN THE WORLD SERIES!!! WE DIDNT WIN ONE GAME!!!!

Hakeem's Dream

07-17-2006, 01:29 PM

this is rediculous.
WE WERE SWEPT IN THE WORLD SERIES!!! WE DIDNT WIN ONE GAME!!!!
And your point is?

Pocket Rockets

07-17-2006, 01:29 PM

rocketfat,

i know that you and burzmali are making statements and arguments towards each other but i have to chime in on here even though i don't know ya'lls history....

if everett is the best defensive shortstop in baseball, then there are 29 other teams that have a worse shortstop defensively, 1 out of 30, those aren't pretty good odds on making a WS appearance,

so like you say of the 100 WS winners there are pretty good odds none of those teams will have a great defensive shortstop.

There is more to winning a WS then a poor offensive shortstop,

now when you combine him with a poor offensive catcher then yes the combination looks like a hinderance, however you cannot continue to point out his lack of offense for the reason the astros will not win a WS, because we came within 7 runs of winning the WS with everett!

Winning is a team effort and yes at this point we haven't gotten a team effort from our players yet.

IMO, taveras should not be starting unless garner will set him free on the basepaths...lamb and burke need to be starting as a few people have mentioned their displeasure of the garner switch hitting tactics that always seem to fail.

MadMax

07-17-2006, 01:31 PM

are you forgetting the fact that we were a game away from the world series the year before with Jose Vizcaino as our SS? i guess you are you silly goose!

we went to the world series last year in spite of adam everett, and because of our pitching. we got swept in the world series because of our inability to score runs. that is the area of our team which needs improvement.

you're absolutely right. it was vizcaino. good point.

i don't think it was in spite of adam everett. defense was a strongpoint of this team last year, and everett, as the SS, was the anchor.

we didn't lose the world series because of hitting, silly goose. we averaged nearly 5 runs a game. we lost the world series because the key factor all season, pitching, failed us. clemens gave up 3 runs in 2 IP in game 1...oswalt gave up 5 runs in 6 IP in game 3. lidge failed to be lidge throughout.

The Cat

07-17-2006, 01:33 PM

Preston Wilson has been the worst defensive LF in the majors this year. His range is abysmal. Putting Preston in center would be an absolute disaster. It was his natural position at one time... before multiple knee injuries and surgeries. Now it's a stretch to even have him in a corner OF spot... center would never happen.

I think it speaks volumes that the organization trusts Lane as the emergency CF (well, when he was on the team) more than Wilson. That's not a role he can play at this point in his career.

JeopardE

07-17-2006, 01:33 PM

I wouldn't like to see Ensberg traded. We know he can hit...and the times he has suffered slumps it has been due to injury (2nd half of last season, and now this one). Trading him away would seem like they're pushing the panic button already.

imoffg33

07-17-2006, 01:35 PM

we're halfway through the season and we are a few games under .500... its about time to push that panic button

Baqui99

07-17-2006, 01:39 PM

Yeah, like last year when they packed it up and went home instead of going to the World Series?

So what? Does that mean that Mike Gallo played an instrumental part in the playoffs too? He's now in AAA. Hell, even Jason Lane was a productive hitter last year and now he's playing AAA ball in Round Rock.

Pocket Rockets

07-17-2006, 01:39 PM

Pocket Rockets

07-17-2006, 01:42 PM

So what? Does that mean that Mike Gallo played an instrumental part in the playoffs too? He's now in AAA. Hell, even Jason Lane was a productive hitter last year and now he's playing AAA ball in Round Rock.

We knew everetts lack of offense....

we didn't expect lane's...he can't contribute anything else if he can't hit

gunn

07-17-2006, 01:42 PM

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 01:43 PM

IIRC, everett turned the double play to finish off game 4 which propelled us to a 3-1 lead and ultimate series victory!
The tying run would have scored had that double play not been made....

and bruntlett was playing 2nd! better sit biggio down and put him in there full time!

and while we're at it, why is taveras no longer our every day CF? and why put ensberg on the DL? don't they know he was on our world series roster last year which means he automatically gives us the best chance of going back there no matter how poorly he's playing and no matter what's wrong with him?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

JeopardE

07-17-2006, 01:44 PM

IIRC, everett turned the double play to finish off game 4 which propelled us to a 3-1 lead and ultimate series victory!
The tying run would have scored had that double play not been made....

Good catch. I can't believe anyone would actually forget that play...it was only the 2nd most amazing play of the NLCS (2nd to Albie's crusher).

Pocket Rockets

07-17-2006, 01:54 PM

With all due respect to AE's defensive ability, it was Bruntlett that really made that double play special.

with respect to bruntletts defense, everett actually turned it when he avoided the slide and had to release the throw to berkman in time

MadMax

07-17-2006, 01:55 PM

...it was only the 2nd most amazing play of the NLCS (2nd to Albie's crusher).

like anyone could even know that, Napoleon. :D

Pocket Rockets

07-17-2006, 01:57 PM

and bruntlett was playing 2nd! better sit biggio down and put him in there full time!

and while we're at it, why is taveras no longer our every day CF? and why put ensberg on the DL? don't they know he was on our world series roster last year which means he automatically gives us the best chance of going back there no matter how poorly he's playing and no matter what's wrong with him?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

bruntlett was a defensive replacement at the time, he didn't start....biggio did

taveras isn't hitting .300 and stealing 30 bases this year....
ensberg is plain hurt, what can you do about that?
lane isn't hitting like last year

everett is pretty much right on track as to where we expected him

gunn

07-17-2006, 02:01 PM

with respect to bruntletts defense, everett actually turned it when he avoided the slide and had to release the throw to berkman in time

To each his own.

Pocket Rockets

07-17-2006, 02:06 PM

To each his own.

tru, let just say they both had a hand in one of the greatest finishes in playoff history!
;)

Buck Turgidson

07-17-2006, 02:07 PM

He's the 2nd-best defensive shortstop in the league (behind Vizquel) with just about the worst offensive numbers among regular shortstops. It's just that extreme, folks. Too bad Everett can't hit like Vizquel, who's hitting .296...
Look back at Vizquel's stats when he was younger, he was every bit the offensive player AE is now. Look at Ozzie Smith, Dave Concepcion & many others who took awhile to develop an offensive game, or never did (Belanger). Why were they starting shortstops?

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 02:15 PM

Look back at Vizquel's stats when he was younger, he was every bit the offensive player AE is now.

yep, and how many world series champions has he been on in the 20 years he's been in baseball?

msn

07-17-2006, 02:26 PM

yep, and how many world series champions has he been on in the 20 years he's been in baseball?
Way to ignore the rest of his post. Let's quote the rest of it, shall we, as ignoring portions of relevant information is a logical fallacy:

at Ozzie Smith, Dave Concepcion & many others who took awhile to develop an offensive game, or never did (Belanger). Why were they starting shortstops?
Yep. Methinks the Wizard and Mr. Concepción won a few WS titles between them.

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 02:43 PM

Way to ignore the rest of his post. Let's quote the rest of it, shall we, as ignoring portions of relevant information is a logical fallacy:

Yep. Methinks the Wizard and Mr. Concepción won a few WS titles between them.

concepcion was a good hitter first of all, and was a great hitter in the postseason.

ozzie smith stole 40 bases/season. neither of them were anywhere close to as one-dimensional as everett.

please don't mention adam everett in the same breath as either of them. it is an insult to baseball history.

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 02:46 PM

forgot to include my most important rebuttal:

in this, everett's 5th year in the big leagues, he hasn't shown one iota of improvement at the plate, and if anything, he's regressed.

NJRocket

07-17-2006, 02:58 PM

DaDakota

07-17-2006, 03:16 PM

If Everett doesnt turn that mind boggling game ending double play in Game 4 vs St L.....or if he doesnt "sell" that phantom tag on the double play in Game 6, we may not have seen the World Series.

He cannot hit...I dont even think you would get AE himself to argue that point....but you cant dismiss what he brings to the table defensively as if its commonmplace amongst all major league shortstops.

It is certainly NOT common place but it is hardly spectacular...Everett is no Ozzie Smith, he is a very good defensive player, but his offense is WELL below par.

I don't mind him being in there every day, but that means we need 7 other solid starters in the lineup and right now we only have 6 on a good day.....Ausmus and Everett together are each great at their own position, but weaklings in the offensive scheme of things, and I would love to have only one of them playing instead of both.

DD

NJRocket

07-17-2006, 03:19 PM

Ausmus and Everett together are each great at their own position, but weaklings in the offensive scheme of things, and I would love to have only one of them playing instead of both.

DD

I wouldnt even call Ausmus great anymore. I agree that with 2 holes in the lineup, we suffer. I actually think its time to let Ausmus only catch Clemens and give Munson a shot at more at bats.

Buck Turgidson

07-17-2006, 03:21 PM

Way to ignore the rest of his post.
I wish he'd ignore *all* of my posts. I do his.

Ric

07-17-2006, 03:37 PM

He cannot hit...I dont even think you would get AE himself to argue that point....but you cant dismiss what he brings to the table defensively as if its commonmplace amongst all major league shortstops.
i wonder if he's reached shaq/FT status and just given up? i've never heard, good or bad, anyone really talk about everett's work ethic as a hitter - how hard does he work? how hard do the coaches work with him? is he taking extra BP? logging extra time in the film room? he has no eye; a career OB% of .305 is just awful. is that something that can be improved....?

well... if you look at ozzie's #s when he was adam's age (24-28), they're eerily similiar. his highest BA was .248; highest OB% was .339; he never hit more than 3 HRs or drove in more than 50 runners. AE tops out at .273; .320; 11 and 54. AE obviously has more pop, but ozzie also averaged 33 steals a year (AE topped out at 21 last year).

anyway, in ozzie's 7th year, at the age of 29 (AE's current age), it seemed to click. over the next 10 seasons, his OB% was.350 or better 7 times; it averaged out to .357 with a high of .392. his average also improved, hitting .280 or better five of those 10 years. HRs stayed minimal, but he started driving in more runs (50 or more 8 times) and, of course, he continued to steal bases.

IOW, later in his career, ozzie's offense became more than passable. wonder what turned it around for him, and is AE capable of a similiar turn?

VesceySux

07-17-2006, 03:54 PM

Let me start by saying that I hate "Automatic-Everett" and his bat, but I totally see the value of his glove. I'm not in any camp.

I do have a question for the PRO-EVERETT team, though. The fans, in the last All-Star Game, voted in Jose Reyes for the NL team and Derek Jeter for the AL team. The PLAYER vote, though, decided on by players and executives, went to Edgar Renteria (and later David Eckstein) for the NL and Michael Young (and later Miguel Tejada) for the AL. Let's compare the reserves, as voted on by the players & executives:

Edgar Renteria: .320 BA, 107 H, 9 HR, 37 RBI, 63 R, .467 SLG, .401 OBP
David Eckstein: .312 BA, 114 H, 1 HR, 19 RBI, 55 R, .362 SLG, .371 OBP
Michael Young: .308 BA, 120 H, 7 HR, 58 RBI, 51 R, .442 SLG, .351 OBP
Miguel Tejada: .311 BA, 118 H, 18 HR, 65 RBI, .64 R, .507 SLG, .361 OBP
Adam Everett: .242 BA, 70 H, 2 HR, 32 RBI, 28 R, .325 SLG, .297 OBP

And here's the defensive stats:

Edgar Renteria: .977 fielding %, 8 errors, 47 DP, 4.51 range factor, .807 zone rating
David Eckstein: .987 fielding %, 5 errors, 65 DP, 4.48 range factor, .873 zone rating
Michael Young: .982 fielding %, 8 errors, 63 DP, 4.93 range factor, .839 zone rating
Miguel Tejada: .969 fielding %, 12 errors, 69 DP, 4.65 range factor, .815 zone rating
Adam Everett: .990 fielding %, 4 errors, 70 DP, 5.08 range factor, .916 zone rating

Clearly, Adam Everett is FAR AND AWAY the better defensive player, when compared to the All-Star reserves. But his defense didn't get him (or Vizquel) selected now, did it? With the game now meaning something, it appears that players and executives skew towards offensive-minded shortstops to represent them in the All-Star Game and help win home field advantage. Does that mean that defense is overrated in the eyes of players and executives (the people closest to the game)?

Ric

07-17-2006, 03:59 PM

Does that mean that defense is overrated in the eyes of players and executives (the people closest to the game)?
no, it means players and executives don't care enough to do much more than scan obvious stats. it's an exhibition. for the fans.

arkoe

07-17-2006, 04:07 PM

Hmmm... another majorly derailed thread due to people's complaining about Everett. You would think we'd be over this topic.

VesceySux

07-17-2006, 04:08 PM

no, it means players and executives don't care enough to do much more than scan obvious stats. it's an exhibition. for the fans.

But the game means something now. You think Ozzie, as AL manager, viewed it as a simple exhibition? His team has a great shot to go to the WS again, and I guarantee he'd love to have home field advantage.

Ric

07-17-2006, 04:23 PM

But the game means something now. You think Ozzie, as AL manager, viewed it as a simple exhibition? His team has a great shot to go to the WS again, and I guarantee he'd love to have home field advantage.
sure, but even ozzie has to take a royal, devil ray, oriole & indian... likely at the expense of a better, more deserving player who's more likely to care about WS homefield advantage. and why? because it's an exhibition.

besides, do you really think devil ray players are pouring over VORP or defensive range stats? they're opening ESPN.com, if that, and voting on best offensive numbers. or simply going by long-held reputation.

the all-star roster proves nothing, either way.

Joe Joe

07-17-2006, 04:32 PM

If the Astros were to get Linebrink or Greene for Ensberg, I would ask for Mike Cameron as well even if it cost a 2nd tier propect (not Patton or Hirsh). He's an older player, but he is a much better defensive CF than Burke. Cameron also brings more to the plate offensively than Biggio and Wilson. Burke could slide to 2nd base or LF.

If it was Greene that the Astros got, any outs lost at SS would most likely be gained back with Cameron in CF and Burke in LF/2nd. Well, that is only true if Greene is anywhere close to being as good defensively as someone has suggested earlier in this thread.

VesceySux

07-17-2006, 04:39 PM

besides, do you really think devil ray players are pouring over VORP or defensive range stats? they're opening ESPN.com, if that, and voting on best offensive numbers. or simply going by long-held reputation.

You may be right, but player voting may still illustrate the type of stats players value, i.e. offense. Plus, keep in mind it's not just players voting, either. Also, if what you say is true, then there shouldn't have been a big difference between fan voting (who chiefly use reputation + hometown + "google" offensive stats) and player voting. But there was a difference.

Ric

07-17-2006, 04:58 PM

You may be right, but player voting may still illustrate the type of stats players value, i.e. offense. Plus, keep in mind it's not just players voting, either. Also, if what you say is true, then there shouldn't have been a big difference between fan voting (who chiefly use reputation + hometown + "google" offensive stats) and player voting. But there was a difference.
offensive stats are easier. i mean, like some random KC royal has any knowledge of AE's efforts; and/or the inclination to try and quantify something that even hardcore statgeeks struggle with? tejada's hit so many homers - slam dunk. no effort, no thought, no wasted energy.

and i'm not sure what difference you cite: it seemed both the voted and named players excelled offensively, no?

Ric

07-17-2006, 05:05 PM

btw, i have no feeling either way. i appreciate AE's glove; i think he makes a difficult position look easy. but i agree, he's useless at the plate. and yeah, some of it is guilt by association - ausmus' poor bat makes AE's worse and vice versa. it's hard to field a line-up of three nearly automatic outs and then a mish-mash of inconsistency elsewhere around berkman.

which means, getting back to the point, i really hope ensberg is hurt, that he does get healthy and that he does come back to '05 form down the stretch. unfortunately he and the team wasted so much time, i'm not sure there's enough left to make any determination prior to the deadline. which is why i think they may be counting him out this year and looking for bats elsewhere.

btw, back briefly to ausmus/everett - i think it would be interesting to ask astro pitchers which player they'd sacrifice for another bat.

Joe Joe

07-17-2006, 05:10 PM

which means, getting back to the point, i really hope ensberg is hurt, that he does get healthy and that he does come back to '05 form down the stretch.

This is the best possible situation for the Astros offensively. I'd still like to get someone like Cameron to play CF and move Burke to an easier position for him.

pgabriel

07-17-2006, 05:22 PM

Look back at Vizquel's stats when he was younger, he was every bit the offensive player AE is now. Look at Ozzie Smith, Dave Concepcion & many others who took awhile to develop an offensive game, or never did (Belanger). Why were they starting shortstops?

because that was a different era.

Buck Turgidson

07-17-2006, 05:36 PM

because that was a different era.
Here's the list of mlb SS's: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=OPS&minpa=0&split=0&season=2006&pos=ss&hand=a&league=mlb&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=false

There's a whole bunch of weak hitters there...why? Maybe because SS's who can hit & are good with the glove are at a premium. Who should the Astros go after? They like Tejada, couldn't get him. The Astros are not averse to making a change at SS, most of their fans wouldn't be either, that's not the point. Who else is a realistic alternative that's going to be a definite upgrade?

Rox Addict

07-17-2006, 05:50 PM

I agree AE's bat is killing us and so is Ausmus. I think Ausmus has thrown out one maybe two players this year. The problem is that too many fans get stuck to nice guys players like AE and Ausmus. We keep Ausmus because the girls like him and he brings in fans and AE is just a nice guy and great fielder but he has no bat. I'm tired of having those two at the bottom of the lineup with almost the same BA as the pitchers. After your 5th batter the averages just go way down. Ausmus has won some gold gloves and had some great yrs and AE is a great fielder but you have to always play the percentages in baseball and just look at AE's and Ausmus BA and that tells the whole story. You put two bats in there with a higher batting average and you get more runs which leads to more wins. Percentage wise what do you need more a better hitter or fielder...simple, a better hitter. Most Fielders make routine plays about 90% of the time its that 10% of the time that you see that remarkable play in the field. We have seen about 50 in the last 4 games against us...Take this for what it is but I say you put Munson in there more and put Greene at short. We have to make Lamb an everyday player because he is just one hell of a hitter. Think about next yr he is going to have some big offers and we will probably be saying Bye,Bye, to him if we don't start playing him everyday when another team will.....

Rox Addict

07-17-2006, 05:56 PM

Can Greene play 3rd and Huff move to Right ?

Burzmali

07-17-2006, 06:34 PM

gonna ignore all your insults because everybody on this board is well aware what a boob you are and how i've already owned you over and over again, but just answer this, you sad, sad, sad being:

Translation: I choose not to respond to your question because the answer would be embarassing. Why don't you just man up and answer the question? Back up your claims of intelligence.

HOW THE **** CAN A TEAM WITH A PATHETIC DEFENSIVE SS LIKE DEREK JETER WIN 4 WORLD SERIES??????????????????????????????

They win because they spend alot more money than any other team. They usually have marquee players at most positions, and a deep pitching staff. Nobody is saying that a team cannot win with a poor defensive shortstop. What is being said, however, is that having an excellent defensive shortstop is a positive thing, regardless of his offensive production.

blah, blah, cognitive capacity of my ballsac, we will say he is). ok?

:rolleyes:

blah, blah, does having the greatest defensive ss in the league translate into winning. it matters not one damn bit. simply run down the list of world series winners, and i'm sure you'd say they are all inferior ss's to adam everett. it's really that simple!

Poor argument. Is having the greatest defensive shortstop in baseball a necessity for winning? No. Does having the greatest defensive shortstop in baseball give value that contributes to winning? Absolutely.

Are you really this dense? You could just as easily say "does having the best offensive ss in the league translate into winning? it matters not one damn bit. simply run down the list of world series winners, blah blah."

here's something else to ponder: your idol, billy beane, who you worship the ground he walks on, and is the reason for all your obsessive referencing of statisticians, has, over the past 10 years, started 2 "awful" (as you would term them) defensive ss's in bobby crosby (who his rookie year showed signs of becoming a great offensive producer), and miguel tejada, who is pure offense.

doesn't that boggle your mind? the man you deify, the man whose moves and words you treat as gospel, isn't interested one lousy bit in acquiring a premiere defensive ss??? how is that possible?

Provide evidence that I "worship the ground" Beane walks on. I think he's an excellent GM... do you disagree with that?

Beane is limited by money. He had Tejada on the team when he was on his rookie deal, same with Crosby. No reason to make a change there when you have premier offensive talents being paid next to nothing. You can't look at these things in a vaccum.

Also, it's news to me that Tejada is "pure" offense.

buddy, every single point i make puts you to shame. it is obvious that you have no original thought and opinions, just pick and choose what others say, and adopt their thoughts as your own.

ya can't see the forest for the trees, kid. accept that. accept that i'm smarter than you, accept that i'm always right, and accept that you understand little to nothing about the game of baseball.

good night.

And all you do is paint this picture of yourself as some kind of a baseball genius. Unfortunately, the illusion breaks down as soon as you try to explain your ideas, which for lack of a kinder term, are completely inane. You lack even a rudimentary understanding of basic logic, and your behavior in this forum is uncouth at best. You've managed to rub pretty much every poster in this forum the wrong way, even those that might agree with some of your ideas.

In other words, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Or I wreck you. Again.

JunkyardDwg

07-17-2006, 07:23 PM

How did Everett get invovled in a thread about Ensberg being possibly shopped?!

2nd verse, same as the 1st. This has became a dumping ground for broken records.

How bout we go straight to those in charge. There should be a poll among managers on who they'd prefer among two and only two choices: a great defesnive shortstop with limited offensive ability or a great bat but a liability at shortstop.

Me, considering all the other positions that can generate offense, I'd be more inclined to have a defensive beast manning short than another bat. The plays Everett makes are just sick. And the fact that he's still an everday player at short and doesn't ever seem to be rumoured in a trade seems to indicate the organization (the people whose opinions and thoughts matter most) feels the same. Plus the team went to the WS with him there; that's good enough for me. Find your offense somewhere else. Oh yeah, they did, in acquiring Huff. And if defense is so overrated Lamb would have been playing at 3rd base a long time ago.

pgabriel

07-17-2006, 08:32 PM

Here's the list of mlb SS's: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=OPS&minpa=0&split=0&season=2006&pos=ss&hand=a&league=mlb&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=false

There's a whole bunch of weak hitters there...why? Maybe because SS's who can hit & are good with the glove are at a premium. Who should the Astros go after? They like Tejada, couldn't get him. The Astros are not averse to making a change at SS, most of their fans wouldn't be either, that's not the point. Who else is a realistic alternative that's going to be a definite upgrade?

I don't disagree but I thought you were implying that those guys were in their for their defense when asking were they in there for their offense. I'm just saying that a defensive shortstop isn't important as it was when ozzie started out. and there were no alex rodriguez's and miguel tejadas either. I agree that the astros would move everett if they could. and I really don't care either way, I just can't stand this argument that they "need" his defense.

rocketfat

07-17-2006, 08:44 PM

Translation: I choose not to respond to your question because the answer would be embarassing. Why don't you just man up and answer the question? Back up your claims of intelligence.

They win because they spend alot more money than any other team. They usually have marquee players at most positions, and a deep pitching staff. Nobody is saying that a team cannot win with a poor defensive shortstop. What is being said, however, is that having an excellent defensive shortstop is a positive thing, regardless of his offensive production.

:rolleyes:

Poor argument. Is having the greatest defensive shortstop in baseball a necessity for winning? No. Does having the greatest defensive shortstop in baseball give value that contributes to winning? Absolutely.

Are you really this dense? You could just as easily say "does having the best offensive ss in the league translate into winning? it matters not one damn bit. simply run down the list of world series winners, blah blah."

Provide evidence that I "worship the ground" Beane walks on. I think he's an excellent GM... do you disagree with that?

Beane is limited by money. He had Tejada on the team when he was on his rookie deal, same with Crosby. No reason to make a change there when you have premier offensive talents being paid next to nothing. You can't look at these things in a vaccum.

Also, it's news to me that Tejada is "pure" offense.

And all you do is paint this picture of yourself as some kind of a baseball genius. Unfortunately, the illusion breaks down as soon as you try to explain your ideas, which for lack of a kinder term, are completely inane. You lack even a rudimentary understanding of basic logic, and your behavior in this forum is uncouth at best. You've managed to rub pretty much every poster in this forum the wrong way, even those that might agree with some of your ideas.

In other words, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Or I wreck you. Again.

so, so sad. as usual, you result to insults rather than making a single point because you are completely stumped. honestly, do you realize that you didnt make a single point in this entire response?

the astros have the third highest payroll in the league. miguel tejada was an A for 8 years. one of those rare 8-year rookie deals i guess! :eek:

and wait a minute, child. YOU are the moron who believes that everett's defense is invaluable to the point where it doesnt matter if he ever learned how to hit a baseball. let's not turn the tables around here, ok son? you go search through your stacks and stacks of statistical analysis and show some evidence of how having the greatest defensive ss ever contributes to our winning ball games.

the astros offense is atrocious. that is where our problem lies. even somebody as uneducated as you has to understand that, don't they? replacing everett with somebody who knows how to hit a baseball would help our offense. period.

go home. your opinions are mindless and worthless. have fun coming back with another slew of insults! that's what children do.

Major

07-17-2006, 10:05 PM

have fun coming back with another slew of insults! that's what children do.

Sounds about right:

gonna ignore all your insults because everybody on this board is well aware what a boob you are and how i've already owned you over and over again, but just answer this, you sad, sad, sad being:

Dark_Tower

07-17-2006, 11:05 PM

gunn

07-18-2006, 08:50 AM

go home. your opinions are mindless and worthless. have fun coming back with another slew of insults! that's what children do.

The both of you are acting like a couple of snotty brats. And rocketfat, while I may agree with your points, your tone is way off. You need to check that trash at the gate. This is not the GARM.

UTweezer

07-18-2006, 08:52 AM

jake peavy :)

MadMax

07-18-2006, 09:04 AM

I agree AE's bat is killing us .

this is beyond silly.

the guy in the 8 hole is "killing us??" give me a break.

NJRocket

07-18-2006, 09:15 AM

I would ask for Mike Cameron as well even if it cost a 2nd tier propect (not Patton or Hirsh). He's an older player, but he is a much better defensive CF than Burke. .

We have Mike cameron.....we just call him Preston Wilson

Ric

07-18-2006, 09:25 AM

the guy in the 8 hole is "killing us??" give me a break.
honestly, right or wrong, he and ausmus and their lack of offensive production are joined at the hip - guilt by association. AE alone doesn't kill you; AE and ausmus combined with the pitcher kills you. well, hurts you. it kills rallys; it fails to start rallys... when 1-6 is suspect to begin with...

MadMax

07-18-2006, 09:28 AM

gunn

07-18-2006, 09:34 AM

i think i'd focus my attention on 1-6. real differences in terms of numbers aren't gonna come by replacing your 7-8-9 hitters.

I don't know about that. I would like to see the "numbers" when the Stros get production out of the bottom of the order. My guess is that it probably accounts for a bigger impact than you would believe. It is 1/3 of the line-up.

MadMax

07-18-2006, 09:38 AM

I don't know about that. I would like to see the "numbers" when the Stros get production out of the bottom of the order. My guess is that it probably accounts for a bigger impact than you would believe. It is 1/3 of the line-up.

here's my point. let's say everett's batting in the 8 hole. batting around .245. what is the average 8 hole hitter hitting at right now in the league? .270??? that's just a guess, but i don't know.

look at our guys at the top and in the meat of the lineup. you're giving up a lot more at the top of the order than you're giving up in the bottom of the order. you're not getting a ton of power production at out of anyone not named berkman in the meat of the order.

and yet all the attention is on ausmus and everett? that just seems silly to me.

pgabriel

07-18-2006, 09:41 AM

honestly, right or wrong, he and ausmus and their lack of offensive production are joined at the hip - guilt by association. AE alone doesn't kill you; AE and ausmus combined with the pitcher kills you. well, hurts you. it kills rallys; it fails to start rallys... when 1-6 is suspect to begin with...

I agree, earlier I was trying to make a point that when the astros are winning his defense is a luxury and when they are losing his offense is a liability. they may not need to get rid of him, but you can't have him and ausmus, and even willy and using the same excuse for all three when in combination they're killing you.

Groogrux

07-18-2006, 09:43 AM

I agree, earlier I was trying to make a point that when the astros are winning his defense is a luxury and when they are losing his offense is a liability. they may not need to get rid of him, but you can't have him and ausmus, and even willy and using the same excuse for all three when in combination they're killing you.

But what's the alternative? Sure, we'd all love Tejada or A-Rod or Jeter, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

There's an alternative for Willy and they've been using it. I would like to see them use Munson more, honestly. Everett should be the last guy out of those three that people are bitching about. Winning or losing.

Buck Turgidson

07-18-2006, 09:49 AM

i think i'd focus my attention on 1-6. real differences in terms of numbers aren't gonna come by replacing your 7-8-9 hitters.
Their failures are magnified by the failures of several other players more integral to the offense.

Not sure what their options will be, but I'd like - and I'm sure the Stros will look at - their bringing in a catcher this offseason - let Ausmus be the backup/personal catcher for PitcherX/quasi-pitching coach.

Ric

07-18-2006, 10:04 AM

and yet all the attention is on ausmus and everett? that just seems silly to me.
if you look at the team when ausmus is hitting, it's a much better team; even better when they're both hitting (see last saturday).

ausmus hit .339 in april; the team went 16-8. he raised his average more than 30 points after the all-star break in 2005 and 29 points in 2004 and we all know what happened during those two stretches. was he the sole reason for our resurgence? of course not. but he played a vital role.

so to say the 7-9 hitters are afterthoughts and that we should be focusing on 1-6 is like saying we should only focus on starting pitchers and not the bullpen. yes, 1-6 need to step it up, but so, too, independent of 1-6, do 7-9.

ausmus has 112 ABs with men on; 65 with runners in scoring position. compare that to ensberg, hitting almost exclusively 3, 4 or 5, and he has 126 ABs with runners on; 73 with runners in scoring position.

gunn

07-18-2006, 10:06 AM

here's my point. let's say everett's batting in the 8 hole. batting around .245. what is the average 8 hole hitter hitting at right now in the league? .270??? that's just a guess, but i don't know.

look at our guys at the top and in the meat of the lineup. you're giving up a lot more at the top of the order than you're giving up in the bottom of the order. you're not getting a ton of power production at out of anyone not named berkman in the meat of the order.

and yet all the attention is on ausmus and everett? that just seems silly to me.

I definitely see where you are coming from. But it's not just the 8 spot as a single entity. When you have Ausmus and the pitcher surrounding you, it's about the whole picture. Everett has the 3rd worst OPS of every single regular infielder in all of baseball. And Ausmus, well, any stat that I could bring up to show just how dismal he is offensively, would be just a keen observation of the obvious. Something has got to give. I would prefer it to be Ausmus, personally.

Buck Turgidson

07-18-2006, 10:18 AM

here's my point. let's say everett's batting in the 8 hole. batting around .245. what is the average 8 hole hitter hitting at right now in the league? .270??? that's just a guess, but i don't know.

look at our guys at the top and in the meat of the lineup. you're giving up a lot more at the top of the order than you're giving up in the bottom of the order. you're not getting a ton of power production at out of anyone not named berkman in the meat of the order.

and yet all the attention is on ausmus and everett? that just seems silly to me.
Out of 16 NL teams, the Stros rank 15th in OPS from the 7-hole (.654, ahead of only STL at .650); and 14th in OPS in the 8-hole (.620 - STL is 11th at .702...and NYM is 12th at .637 btw).

Knowing that, look at leadoff & the 5th spot:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=batting&group=8&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=OPS&split=116&season=2006

MadMax

07-18-2006, 10:21 AM

Out of 16 NL teams, the Stros rank 15th in OPS from the 7-hole (.654, ahead of only STL at .650); and 14th in OPS in the 8-hole (.620 - STL is 11th at .702...and NYM is 12th at .637 btw).

Knowing that, look at leadoff & the 5th spot:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=batting&group=8&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=OPS&split=116&season=2006

dead last at the leadoff spot. ouch.

Groogrux

07-18-2006, 10:33 AM

so to say the 7-9 hitters are afterthoughts and that we should be focusing on 1-6 is like saying we should only focus on starting pitchers and not the bullpen. yes, 1-6 need to step it up, but so, too, independent of 1-6, do 7-9.

Actually, I think it's more like saying we should only focus on the bullpen when your starting pitching sucks too. Of course we'd all love improvement offensively from 7-8, but it shouldn't be the focus of one's wrath when 1-6 aren't doing their jobs either.

MadMax

07-18-2006, 10:37 AM

Hakeem's Dream

07-18-2006, 10:37 AM

Mailbag: Is Huff in Astros' future plans?
07/17/2006 12:29 PM ET
By Alyson Footer / MLB.com

In this edition of the Astros mailbag, fans are curious about the club's interest in securing new acquisition Aubrey Huff along with such issues as Jason Lane's demotion, Brad Ausmus' potential future as a manager, Roy Oswalt's contract extension and more.

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/emailArticleServlet?aid=1058451

This should hopefully make things clearer for all of us.

MadMax

07-18-2006, 10:43 AM

geeimsobored

07-18-2006, 10:46 AM

read that this morning...the oswalt stuff scares the hell out of me.

awww screw...

jopatmc

07-18-2006, 10:47 AM

read that this morning...the oswalt stuff scares the hell out of me.

Yup. Denny is going to have to pay him like one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball, which he is. If he don't, he is going to fly the coop. If we aren't going to sign him, we need to hope he has a huge year next year and we can trade him while his value is off the charts. Scary indeed. I don't see how DM can let him walk.

Ric

07-18-2006, 10:48 AM

Of course we'd all love improvement offensively from 7-8, but it shouldn't be the focus of one's wrath when 1-6 aren't doing their jobs either.
there's no wrath, certainly not from me. i'm neutral; i appreciate everett, but i wouldn't think twice about an upgrade. but looking at improvements requires seeing the whole picture; i think people are tired of ecusing ausmus and everett as if they have no obligation to ffer any offensive help.

Ric

07-18-2006, 10:49 AM

This should hopefully make things clearer for all of us.
yep; this whole time i was wondering, "who's the singlest dumbest astro fan on the planet?" and footer's piece answered my query ten-fold:

I was very surprised when I found out that Jason Lane was optioned to Round Rock. Although he hasn't been doing as well offensively this season as he has done in the past, he has still made enormous contributions to the organization. Is there a chance that he'll come back to the Majors soon?
-- Katie P., Mt. Kisco, NY

Master Baiter

07-18-2006, 10:52 AM

yep; this whole time i was wondering, "who's the singlest dumbest astro fan on the planet?" and footer's piece answered my query ten-fold:
Katie P. is from New York, what do you expect? ;)

MadMax

07-18-2006, 11:02 AM

Yup. Denny is going to have to pay him like one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball, which he is. If he don't, he is going to fly the coop. If we aren't going to sign him, we need to hope he has a huge year next year and we can trade him while his value is off the charts. Scary indeed. I don't see how DM can let him walk.

who's denny?

Master Baiter

07-18-2006, 11:03 AM

who's denny?
Denny Walling, duh.

He has secretly been running the Astros from behind the curtain.

Hakeem's Dream

07-18-2006, 11:21 AM

The whole Roy O thing scares the hell out of me as well. That poor chick in NY, she's probably a first season Astros fan since we went to the WS last year. Forgive her as she doesn't know better. :rolleyes:

MadMax

07-18-2006, 11:22 AM

Denny Walling, duh.

He has secretly been running the Astros from behind the curtain.

i didn't even realize that!!! ;)

he made one of the greatest plays i've ever seen, though. ball ate him up and bounced on his chest, over his shoulders..he recovered and threw the runner out from 3rd.

Buck Turgidson

07-18-2006, 11:27 AM

yep; this whole time i was wondering, "who's the singlest dumbest astro fan on the planet?" and footer's piece answered my query ten-fold:
Don't see why...the "surprised he was sent down" part & the "major contributions" part are a little silly, but the jist of her question - "is there a chance he's coming back?" - is something the Astros have said they'd like to see happen.

I liked the "my heart bleeds for your fantasy team" line myself. Now *that* was a stupid question.

Ric

07-18-2006, 11:49 AM

Don't see why....
well, if lane's demotion "surprised" you, then you are, i'm sorry, a moron. if you then express surpise in a question sent to a baseball writer that is then posted on an internet site, then you are guilty of being the single dumbest astro fan on the planet.

there's really no way around it.

I liked the "my heart bleeds for your fantasy team" line myself. Now *that* was a stupid question.
yeah, that was the guy who asked:

I am a very big Astros fan, and they are really the only team I watch. My question is, why do they change their lineup so frequently? It seems like they do it twice as much as any other team.
wait a second... if the astros are the only team you watch... how would you know what all the other teams are doing?

Hakeem's Dream

07-18-2006, 12:14 PM

well, if lane's demotion "surprised" you, then you are, i'm sorry, a moron. if you then express surpise in a question sent to a baseball writer that is then posted on an internet site, then you are guilty of being the single dumbest astro fan on the planet.

there's really no way around it.

yeah, that was the guy who asked:

wait a second... if the astros are the only team you watch... how would you know what all the other teams are doing?
LMAO, you kill me.

desihooper

07-18-2006, 05:12 PM

Richard Justice wrote in his blog (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/) yesterday (July 17) that Brian McTaggart saw a trade ruomor on a message board involving Ensberg for Linebrink (Clutchfans?!?). And gave reasons for and against the trade. I wonder if McTaggart got the trade rumor from here or someplace else.

It'd take some serious convincing to trade Mo at this point, but he is 30 years old and has a history of getting hurt (not always his fault) and not taking himself out of the line-up (mostly his fault since Garner hasn't pulled him). I wonder what this team could do with a healthy Ensberg batting clean-up:

Biggio - 2B
Burke - CF
Berkman - 1B
Ensberg - 3B
Huff - RF
Wilson - LF
Everett - SS
Ausmus - C

Bench: Lamb, Scott, Palmeiro, Munson, Bruntlett, Lane, Taveras

They'd be right back in contention with a better everyday line-up than last year (IMO).

I say let Mo rest and get well while buying time playing Huff at third. Hopefully he'll come back and hit like he did earlier and for the love of God, stay healthy! This team was built to contend with Ensberg being a key contributor, without him, they're toast.

rocketfat

07-18-2006, 05:32 PM

It'd take some serious convincing to trade Mo at this point, but he is 30 years old and has a history of getting hurt (not always his fault) and not taking himself out of the line-up (mostly his fault since Garner hasn't pulled him).

that says it all to me. look, i like ensberg, and when he plays, we have seen what he's capable of, but like you said, the fact remains that he is 30, he has an injury history, AND he has only had one good season, and completely fell apart in the postseason when we needed him most.

linebrink is indeed a stud. worst case scenario, ensberg gets healthy and stays healthy throughout the remainder of his career, and puts up #'s like he did last season. we know that ain't gonna happen. and if it did, it's not like we got 10 cents on the dollar for him. we got what should be a mainstay of our middle relief for who knows how long for him.

the optimal trade in my opinion is a package including ensberg and excluding one of our top pitching prospects, for linebrink plus a young catcher, and they have a surplus of promising ones. i'd take kotteras or bard.