Taveras to the Marlins?

[torque]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-marnot12jul12,0,3886202.story?coll=sfla-sports-front

"The Marlins have an interest in Astros center fielder Willy Tavares, who is being shopped around, and the young pitching to entice Houston. But the Astros likely would need a replacement in center back in the deal."

I would trade Willy for whatever prospects we can get. Lane can be our backup / spot starting outfielder.

Thoughts?

[The Real Shady]

I think Tavares for Cabrera is in the works.

[OldManBernie]

I think Tavares for Cabrera is in the works.

I heard that the Astros won't pull the trigger unless they add Dontrelle Willis to the deal.

[The Real Shady]

I heard that the Astros won't pull the trigger unless they add Dontrelle Willis to the deal.

With Taveras showing off tonight Willis would be a must.

[CrazyJoeDavola]

I'd love to get Messenger in return. He has looked good this year.

[WhoMikeJames]

pleaseee get us dontrelle or cabrera

[rikesh316]

Marlins won't trade any of there good young prospects for Willy Taveras. I think the Astros could get Joe Borowski for him.

[wrath_of_khan]

Taveras, Ensberg, and Hirsh for Cabrera?

From a payroll standpoint, it works for us because Cabrera won't be due for a mega-raise until Bagwell, Clemens, and Andy are off the books. The penny-pinching Marlins only add salary in Ensberg, but he's not all that expensive yet.

Only problem is we'd have to give up Hirsh. (I may be in the minority, but I think Cabrera is good enough to be worth it.)

Oh, and the other problem is the Marlins would never go for it in a million years. There's that, too. But a guy can dream, can't he? ;)

[The Real Shady]

Taveras, Ensberg, and Hirsh for Cabrera?

From a payroll standpoint, it works for us because Cabrera won't be due for a mega-raise until Bagwell, Clemens, and Andy are off the books. The penny-pinching Marlins only add salary in Ensberg, but he's not all that expensive yet.

Only problem is we'd have to give up Hirsh. (I may be in the minority, but I think Cabrera is good enough to be worth it.)

Oh, and the other problem is the Marlins would never go for it in a million years. There's that, too. But a guy can dream, can't he? ;)

Wrong. It's Taveras for Cabrera and Willis. The Marlins covet Taveras so we need to milk them for all they have.

[kevwun]

Hirsh is a really good prospect, but Cabrera is a top 5 NL hitter. It would be a no brainer.

[superden]

Wrong. It's Taveras for Cabrera and Willis. The Marlins covet Taveras so we need to milk them for all they have.


Purpura would be a god in Houston if that happened.

[ryan17wagner]

The article says it could be Taveras for some Marlins young pitching. I doubt they'll trade Miguel and Willis is untouchable.

[edwardc]

Willis would be nice but it would take more than willie to get any deal done.maybe wille ,lane and a young pitcher.

[DieHard Rocket]

Willis would be nice but it would take more than willie to get any deal done.maybe wille ,lane and a young pitcher.

Lane has pretty much zero value at this point. We might be able to get an average minor league pitcher at best for him. He would not be a key part in any deal to get Cabrera or Willis.

I'd trade any three of Willy T, Ensberg, Bucholz, Nieve, and Hirsch for Cabrera or Willis. Neither of them are going anywhere though while Florida is still in the race. If they drop off, they could get huge value for both of those guys.

[Brando2101]

Lane has pretty much zero value at this point. We might be able to get an average minor league pitcher at best for him. He would not be a key part in any deal to get Cabrera or Willis.

I'd trade any three of Willy T, Ensberg, Bucholz, Nieve, and Hirsch for Cabrera or Willis. Neither of them are going anywhere though while Florida is still in the race. If they drop off, they could get huge value for both of those guys.


That is REDICULOUS. He is a young guy that hit 25 home runs last year. A lot of teams who maybe aren't in it this year but are looking to win next would love him.

[xcrunner51]

The article says it could be Taveras for some Marlins young pitching. I doubt they'll trade Miguel and Willis is untouchable.

what do we need more young pitching for? we're pretty flush in the stuff. Buchholz, Nieve, and Hirsch are all good prospects close to/at the majors and if thats not good enough Albers, Patton, Paulino, Peguero, Guttierez and Barthmeier are two to three years down the line and if THATS not enough Chris Baker, Chris Sampson and a few others are lower ceiling guys already putting up great numbers at AAA or AA.

[EddieWasSnubbed]

I think that Willy and Hirsh could bring us Dontrelle.



Cabrera is untouchable. Especially for us.

[OldManBernie]

That is REDICULOUS. He is a young guy that hit 25 home runs last year. A lot of teams who maybe aren't in it this year but are looking to win next would love him.

Unless you consider 29 to be a young baseball age, Jason Lane isn't particularly young. He is supposed to be in his prime right now, and he somehow have a season like this. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad player if he's hitting right considering he plays a pretty solid OF. Also, he has a cheap contract. Regardless, I doubt Lane is the kind of player that rebuilding teams are looking for unless they're looking for stopgaps (and who wants a stopgap guy to hit barely above 200).

[OldManBernie]

what do we need more young pitching for? we're pretty flush in the stuff. Buchholz, Nieve, and Hirsch are all good prospects close to/at the majors and if thats not good enough Albers, Patton, Paulino, Peguero, Guttierez and Barthmeier are two to three years down the line and if THATS not enough Chris Baker, Chris Sampson and a few others are lower ceiling guys already putting up great numbers at AAA or AA.

I agree... if the Astros need young anything right now, it'd be a young stud SS, 1B or CF.

[G.O.A.T.]

Purpura would be a god in Houston if that happened.

Like Buddah!

[Brando2101]

Unless you consider 29 to be a young baseball age, Jason Lane isn't particularly young. He is supposed to be in his prime right now, and he somehow have a season like this. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad player if he's hitting right considering he plays a pretty solid OF. Also, he has a cheap contract. Regardless, I doubt Lane is the kind of player that rebuilding teams are looking for unless they're looking for stopgaps (and who wants a stopgap guy to hit barely above 200).

29 isn't that old in baseball. He's not someone you have to worry about breaking down at the end of the season. You can say that Lane has had one good year and one bad one. His BA in 05 was no where near what it was now. There are a lot of reasons a team would think that this guy can turn around and belt out another 25 or even 30 home runs. Baseball is odd. Good and even great players can have off years. Not just slumps, but whole years where they under preform.
I think the Astros made the right move in demoting him but only because we are trying to win now

[Drewdog]

Id take Josh Johnson for Willy T, but do we really need pitching with Backe coming back??

[Hakeem's Dream]

I don't think we need any more pitching. We need to focus on bats only. Fielding will work itself out.

[wood]

Taveras, Ensberg, and Hirsh for Cabrera?

From a payroll standpoint, it works for us because Cabrera won't be due for a mega-raise until Bagwell, Clemens, and Andy are off the books. The penny-pinching Marlins only add salary in Ensberg, but he's not all that expensive yet.

Only problem is we'd have to give up Hirsh. (I may be in the minority, but I think Cabrera is good enough to be worth it.)

Oh, and the other problem is the Marlins would never go for it in a million years. There's that, too. But a guy can dream, can't he? ;)

I like this deal, thought of it myself a few days ago. We could even throw in Lane..

[WhoMikeJames]

Sorry but i really don't care about Ensberg anymore, throw him in.

[gunn]

what do we need more young pitching for? we're pretty flush in the stuff. Buchholz, Nieve, and Hirsch are all good prospects close to/at the majors and if thats not good enough Albers, Patton, Paulino, Peguero, Guttierez and Barthmeier are two to three years down the line and if THATS not enough Chris Baker, Chris Sampson and a few others are lower ceiling guys already putting up great numbers at AAA or AA.

There's no such thing as having too much good, young pitching.

[MadMax]

There's no such thing as having too much good, young pitching.

we have a record-breaking streak of agreement in this forum. :D

[Hakeem's Dream]

we have a record-breaking streak of agreement in this forum. :D
Let me stop that...Mo isn't leaving Houston.

[chuichuitrain]

Mo should have been traded in the offseason when his stock was still high.

Most unclutch player ever.

[A_3PO]

The Astros would have to throw in their entire farm system to get Cabrera. Every team in the majors would like to get him and the bidding war would be fierce. We all know the Stros won't win a bidding war.

[Hakeem's Dream]

Good Lord folks, leave Mo alone. He's in the DL, throw him a freaking bone.

[Burzmali]

Mo should have been traded in the offseason when his stock was still high.

Most unclutch player ever.

(There is no such thing as being clutch or unclutch in baseball)

[msn]

(There is no such thing as being clutch or unclutch in baseball)
Write this one down--I agree with you. On this issue, however, you and are I together in a rather minute minority. Unless you were kidding--which leaves me alone in a rather minute minority.

[Burzmali]

Write this one down--I agree with you. On this issue, however, you and are I together in a rather minute minority. Unless you were kidding--which leaves me alone in a rather minute minority.

No I'm not kidding. Facts are facts.

[Ric]

(There is no such thing as being clutch or unclutch in baseball)
of all people, ray knight once said, "the definition of clutch is doing what you've always done when the stakes are higher." i always thought that was a great point. so simple, yet so true.

a good player, if given a large enough sample size, will, in theory, play at a level relatively expected based on past experiences regardless of the circumstances. look at biggio. in his first 14 playoff games, he hit .130. in his next 26, he's hit .283. did he suddenly get more clutch? or simple more ABs? btw, biggio's career BA? .285 thru last year.

[MadMax]

Let me stop that...Mo isn't leaving Houston.

i meant between me and gunn.

[Major]

(There is no such thing as being clutch or unclutch in baseball)

You should tell that to Abreu, who's numbers consistently go up (substantially and every single year) with runners on base than without (0.50 pts in average and well over 0.100 pts on OPS for his career).

[Buck Turgidson]

Write this one down--I agree with you. On this issue, however, you and are I together in a rather minute minority. Unless you were kidding--which leaves me alone in a rather minute minority.
There are clutch *situations* within games & seasons.

Over the course of a career, the vast majority of players' performance will even out to something approximating their career performance in those situations. There *are* a select few players who routinely perform above their norm in these situations, however. Key words being "routinely" and "select few".

[rrj_gamz]

As much as I like Taveras, I would love a solid pitcher/hitter...

[TheFreak]

look at biggio. in his first 14 playoff games, he hit .130. in his next 26, he's hit .283. did he suddenly get more clutch? or simple more ABs? btw, biggio's career BA? .285 thru last year.

He and Bagwell were the team leaders then, and were counted on for more, hence more pressure. Since then it's been Beltran/Berkman.

[Hakeem's Dream]

i meant between me and gunn.
oops, sorry :o

[Hakeem's Dream]

As much as I like Taveras, I would love a solid pitcher/hitter...
We don't need n-e-more pitchers, imo.

[the big E]

(There is no such thing as being clutch or unclutch in baseball)
Wow!

you really are on a higher level of perception than everyone else.Whew...whats next? Are you going to point out that there really isnt a seventh inning stretch either?

Brilliant....you are Brilliant!

[RocketFan007]

We don't need n-e-more pitchers, imo.

Yeah, our bullen is awesome.

[Mr. Clutch]

You should tell that to Abreu, who's numbers consistently go up (substantially and every single year) with runners on base than without (0.50 pts in average and well over 0.100 pts on OPS for his career).

That may have to do with the fact that he will see more good pitches to hit when there are runners on. Pitchers can't afford to walk him or pitch around him as mutch if guys are on base. I see so many guys have higher averages with guys on base, the explanation that they are "clutch" just doesn't make much sense. Why don't they just hit clutch even when there is nobody on?

[AggieRocketFan96]

Clutch in baseball is ALBERT PUJOLS. Of course there is "clutch" in baseball, but since we are all Astros fans, we just haven't been too familiar with that concept lately. We really only have 1 player that fits that mold--Lance Berkman. Before Ensberg's demotion and the Huff trade, we probably had the most unclutch baseball team in the MLB (I'm thinking Preston, Ensberg, Lane, Ausmus, Everett up to bat with 2 on in the 8th or 9th inning then wham...game ending double play, not to mention the horrible Lidge).

(There is no such thing as being clutch or unclutch in baseball)

[MadMax]

actually, Buck's post is dead-on. the numbers show that most players play to their numbers.

the most overrated "clutch" player is derek jeter. people will talk about how clutch he is in the playoffs...but his playoff averages are nearly exactly what he does in the regular season for his career. he's had postseason series where he's kicked ass and been above and beyond that...but he's also had some series where he didn't show up at all. so is he clutch because he showed up for some...or a choker because he didn't show up for the others?? or is he just a really good player who plays to his average over that many post-season AB's??

[Major]

actually, Buck's post is dead-on. the numbers show that most players play to their numbers.

the most overrated "clutch" player is derek jeter. people will talk about how clutch he is in the playoffs...but his playoff averages are nearly exactly what he does in the regular season for his career. he's had postseason series where he's kicked ass and been above and beyond that...but he's also had some series where he didn't show up at all. so is he clutch because he showed up for some...or a choker because he didn't show up for the others?? or is he just a really good player who plays to his average over that many post-season AB's??

I agree that's the case for most people - that its just random chance and a guy had a hot streak (see Beltran, for example). But would you not agree that players can press at times when the pressure is higher, causing their performance to be worse? If so, is seems like the opposite could be true as well - that certain people just feel extremely comfortable in high-pressure situations, are more focused, etc.

[gunn]

I still think we would be best served adding another bat. If the Astros and Drayton feel that this is the year I wouldn't mind giving up some of the future (i.e. stud pitching prospects) to pick up a Carl Crawford.



Some other rumors concerning the Stros that I found out there:

Chad Qualls, RHRP--Houston Astros: White Sox interested
Last updated: 03:14 PM - Jul 13, 06 by Unoff. MLB | Source: Jim Molony | Rated: 1.00 out of 5

Chris Burke, 2B--Houston Astros: White Sox, A's and Angels have interest
Last updated: 03:13 PM - Jul 13, 06 by Unoff. MLB | Source: Jim Molony | Rated: 3.00 out of 5

[MadMax]

I agree that's the case for most people - that its just random chance and a guy had a hot streak (see Beltran, for example). But would you not agree that players can press at times when the pressure is higher, causing their performance to be worse? If so, is seems like the opposite could be true as well - that certain people just feel extremely comfortable in high-pressure situations, are more focused, etc.

oh, definitely. i totally agree.

[Buck Turgidson]

You should tell that to Abreu, who's numbers consistently go up (substantially and every single year) with runners on base than without (0.50 pts in average and well over 0.100 pts on OPS for his career).
Yet Abreau played some of the worst ball of his recent career in Sept/Oct last season, in the middle of a playoff chase.

[The Real Shady]

Yeah, our bullen is awesome.

It can be solved if we move up Hirsh to the pen.

[Baqui99]

The only untouchables on this team at this points are:

Biggio (PR)
Berkman
Oswalt
Clemens
Nieve

Aside from that, anyone else should be make fully available for the taking.

[Burzmali]

actually, Buck's post is dead-on. the numbers show that most players play to their numbers.

the most overrated "clutch" player is derek jeter. people will talk about how clutch he is in the playoffs...but his playoff averages are nearly exactly what he does in the regular season for his career. he's had postseason series where he's kicked ass and been above and beyond that...but he's also had some series where he didn't show up at all. so is he clutch because he showed up for some...or a choker because he didn't show up for the others?? or is he just a really good player who plays to his average over that many post-season AB's??

Actually, I'm not 100% sure but I think Jeter's postseason production levels are actually below his regular season averages. Does this make him un-clutch? Of course not, because there is no such thing as clutch or un-clutch.

[RocketFan007]

It can be solved if we move up Hirsh to the pen.

Yeah, so he can pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th every night.

[Burzmali]

The only untouchables on this team at this points are:

Biggio (PR)
Berkman
Oswalt
Clemens
Nieve

Aside from that, anyone else should be make fully available for the taking.

Nieve? :confused:

Agree with the rest... sort of. I agree that to the organization, those players are untouchable. Personally, I dont' like the idea of an "untouchable" player.

If Texas offers us Teixiera, Blalock, Mike Young, and 10 top level prospects for Berkman, you would turn that down?

[rocketfat]

Nieve? :confused:
If Texas offers us Teixiera, Blalock, Mike Young, and 10 top level prospects for Berkman, you would turn that down?


i would shoot that down in a split second, i dont want michael young stealing away playing time from adam everett.

[Burzmali]

RISP doesn't necessarily indicate a "clutch" situation does it?

I would think game situation factors in.

BTW I did look at a stat study about some form of pressure hitting and guess who topped out the list from 1960 to 2004.



Bill Spiers. ;)

There are flaws with the study which the author talked about, but I still liked that he was on top.

[Burzmali]

i would shoot that down in a split second, i dont want michael young stealing away playing time from adam everett.

I wouldn't either. Young is a disaster at short. I'd stick him at 2B or LF.

[Buck Turgidson]

the most overrated "clutch" player is derek jeter. people will talk about how clutch he is in the playoffs...but his playoff averages are nearly exactly what he does in the regular season for his career.
.307 .379 .463 post-season (115 games)
.314 .386 .461 reg-season

[Major]

Yet Abreau played some of the worst ball of his recent career in Sept/Oct last season, in the middle of a playoff chase.

He was worse in April and July than he was in September last year - he just had an all-around mediocre year. But even with that, he had an OPS more than 0.100 points higher with runners on base than without and kept driving runners in.

[Major]

That may have to do with the fact that he will see more good pitches to hit when there are runners on. Pitchers can't afford to walk him or pitch around him as mutch if guys are on base. I see so many guys have higher averages with guys on base, the explanation that they are "clutch" just doesn't make much sense. Why don't they just hit clutch even when there is nobody on?

True - but then my next question would be: if he consistently hits the alternative style of pitching better than the normal style of pitching, why wouldn't you just pitch him normally? There are a few players that consistently have the higher numbers, but more players tend to average out over their careers. For example, Berkman's numbers are absurd this year with a 1.200 OPS with runners on. But last year, he was worse with men on than without and over his career, there's not much differential. For Abreu, he's substantially better every single year.

I have no idea why, but it tells me that players can hit better in differing situations - so why can't one of those be "in the clutch"? For Ichiro, it makes perfect sense - his first few years, he was the same. But he hits the ball on the ground so much, so the bigger holes in the infield with people on base become base hits. With Abreu, those types of explanations don't make as much sense.

[Baqui99]

Nieve? :confused:

Agree with the rest... sort of. I agree that to the organization, those players are untouchable. Personally, I dont' like the idea of an "untouchable" player.

If Texas offers us Teixiera, Blalock, Mike Young, and 10 top level prospects for Berkman, you would turn that down?

Bear in mind that Pettitte and Clemens are old, and Nieve's one of the few good young arms in our system. He's got the potential to be a very good pitcher. I've been impressed with what I've seen out of him so far.

[Buck Turgidson]

Nieve's one of the few good young arms in our system.
Not true. If there's anything they've got in the minors, it's good young pitching.