Is Biggio a 1st Ballot HOF?

[Air Langhi]

I think after this season he will be a first ballot guy.

[weakfromtoday]

If he reaches 3000, absolutely.

[arkoe]

If he averages a little over 30 doubles this year and next, he would be 5th all time. He already has 8 so far this year. He could possibly top 700 (he has 612 currently) before he finally calls it quits, joining Tris Speaker, Pete Rose, Stan Musial, and Ty Cobb as the only players to ever accumulate 700 doubles in a career. As long as nothing happens this season or next, with 3000 hits and being 5th all time in doubles, I don't see any way he's not first ballot.

What is that stat they always show during the game where they talk about the number of extra base hits he has? I always see the very end of it and never get to hear what it is.

[meh]

The past years, Biggio has really tailed off towards the end of the year. I'd be very surprised if he can keep up the hitting this year. Even so, if he sticks around for another year and get 3000 hits, then he's a 1st ballot HOF. Because every baseball writer knows that 3000 hits is a monumental achievement, but 2900+ hits is not that big of a deal. Biggio's doubles, while saying quite a bit about his power, is just not that sexy a stat for voters.

[weakfromtoday]

Biggio's doubles, while saying quite a bit about his power, is just not that sexy a stat for voters.

The names of the men he would be listed with, as arkoe mentioned, are pretty eye-popping though.

[geeimsobored]

Isn't he also near the top for leadoff homers as well. I think he's tops in the NL but I know Rickey Henderson leads all major leaguers but I'm not sure where exactly Biggio stacks up here.

[weakfromtoday]

Isn't he also near the top for leadoff homers as well. I think he's tops in the NL but I know Rickey Henderson leads all major leaguers but I'm not sure where exactly Biggio stacks up here.

I wanna think Biggio is at 46 or 47. Second to Henderson's 80.

[arkoe]

I wanna think Biggio is at 46 or 47. Second to Henderson's 80.

That's right.

There's also his ever so glamorous HBP record.

[toby]

His ability to excel at 3 different (and really different) positions has to count for something

[Raven Lunatic]

His ability to excel at 3 different (and really different) positions has to count for something

I doubt anyone would seriously argue that he exceled at CF.

[toby]

I doubt anyone would seriously argue that he exceled at CF.

ok, yeah, but you get my point . . .

[MadMax]

i've never seen a team's performance in wins and losses more closely tied to one position player than the Astros were with Biggio in the late 90's.

[Raven Lunatic]

What's crazy is that, to me at least, it seemed of the big two Astros Bagwell would be the easy choice into the HOF and Biggio might have to wait a few years. Bagwell had more "sexy" stats with the RBIs, homeruns, MVP, etc...while Craig smoothly and quietly accumulated tremendous, but less media focussed, stats of his own.

But now with Bagwell's early exit from the game (most likely) and Craig's unexpected longevity...well, the roles will likely be reversed and Bagwell will have difficulty getting into the HOF since homeruns will be scrutinized much more in the near future due to steroid abuse...both were great defensive players at their position (w/ the aforementioned CF by Craig...which really shouldn't come into the equation except as proof that he was a team player), but if Craig gets his 3000 hits, I think he is a lock for the hall (not sure about first ballot...just have to see how his career ends).

[MadMax]

What's crazy is that, to me at least, it seemed of the big two Astros Bagwell would be the easy choice into the HOF and Biggio might have to wait a few years. Bagwell had more "sexy" stats with the RBIs, homeruns, MVP, etc...while Craig smoothly and quietly accumulated tremendous, but less media focussed, stats of his own.

But now with Bagwell's early exit from the game (most likely) and Craig's unexpected longevity...well, the roles will likely be reversed and Bagwell will have difficulty getting into the HOF since homeruns will be scrutinized much more in the near future due to steroid abuse...both were great defensive players at their position (w/ the aforementioned CF by Craig...which really shouldn't come into the equation except as proof that he was a team player), but if Craig gets his 3000 hits, I think he is a lock for the hall (not sure about first ballot...just have to see how his career ends).

if he gets 3,000 i guarantee you he'll be first ballot. if he's not, i'll buy you dinner at mcdonald's. even without 3,000, he's heading for the HOF....but 3,000 makes him a first ballot guy.

[pgabriel]

charlie pallilo put together some stats on bagwell.

players who had 1500 rbi, 1500 runs, on base of over .400, and slugging over .750, and a fifth stat I can't remember,

the only other guys with those numbers,

ruth
mantle
gehrig
honus wagner
stan musial
jimmie foxx
bonds
ted williams

and a couple of others I can't remember. don't sell bagwell so short because he didn't hit 500 hrs.

[Raven Lunatic]

if he gets 3,000 i guarantee you he'll be first ballot. if he's not, i'll buy you dinner at mcdonald's. even without 3,000, he's heading for the HOF....but 3,000 makes him a first ballot guy.

Normally, I would say that is true, but with Rafael Palmeiro getting 3000 hits and having stats scrutinized due to the steroids link, I think people will view 3000 hits a little differently. While not fair to Biggio, I could see it happening...especially if Rafael doesn't get into the Hall because of the steroids. I hope that is not the case, though (Biggio, not Palmeiro).

[MadMax]

Normally, I would say that is true, but with Rafael Palmeiro getting 3000 hits and having stats scrutinized due to the steroids link, I think people will view 3000 hits a little differently. While not fair to Biggio, I could see it happening...especially if Rafael doesn't get into the Hall because of the steroids. I hope that is not the case, though (Biggio, not Palmeiro).

i just don't see anyone confusing the two. biggio will not get steroid scrutiny.

[RocketMan Tex]

Both Biggio and Bagwell will be first ballot hall of famers.

You can bet the house on it.

[swilkins]

I wanna think Biggio is at 46 or 47. Second to Henderson's 80.

He's pretty old.

j/k

[JayZ750]

Normally, I would say that is true, but with Rafael Palmeiro getting 3000 hits and having stats scrutinized due to the steroids link, I think people will view 3000 hits a little differently. While not fair to Biggio, I could see it happening...especially if Rafael doesn't get into the Hall because of the steroids. I hope that is not the case, though (Biggio, not Palmeiro).

I think people will look at it on a case by case basis. There is no indication, and never has been, that Biggio was ever on anything. Palmeiro is a different story.

The guys on the radio did some analysis of the 3,000 hit club thing. In actuality, the number is more like 2,700 hits - or something less than 3,000. Everybody above that level is pretty much in the hall. 3,000 would guarantee first ballot, though.

[No Worries]

Biggio should be.

Currently

Top 40 in hits
Top 10 in doubles
Top 25 in runs

If you look at the company he is keeping in those three categories, they mostly all HOF. If Biggio quit today, he should be first ballot HOF.

But will the national media vote him first ballot HOF? Not sure.

[JBIIRockets]

He should be. The older he gets, the better he gets.

[peleincubus]

the dude has been playing since i was a little kid. and im uhhh 26 now.

:eek:

[MadMax]

the dude has been playing since i was a little kid. and im uhhh 26 now.

:eek:

yeah...i'm 31...will be 32 next week. i have two kids. the oldest is almost done with his first year of kindergarten.

i remember watching biggio play when i was in junior high.

[Raven Lunatic]

Yeah, I remember buying baseball cards from a card shop when I was in junior high and the girl working the counter wouldn't stop talking about how much she loved Craig Biggio...not because he was a great player, but because he is so good looking and had a nice butt (I will not attempt to speculate on the current status of said butt). He and Bagwell ARE the Astros and have been for so long now it is hard to imagine the team without them. But I guess we are getting a taste of it this year with Bags gone.

[Buck Turgidson]

Unquestionably, both Biggio & Bagwell deserve to be 1st ballot guys.

It would be so sweet if they could go into the Hall together, though that would take Bagwell getting left out for a year.

[Buck Turgidson]

He should be. The older he gets, the better he gets.
Wouldn't quite go that far, I think everybody forgets just how ridiculously good Biggio was in the late 90's.

Wouldn't say he's "great" defensively either. He was an average to below catcher, was an above average 2B until he blew his knee out, and was well below average as an OF.

Craig Biggio, Robbie Alomar, Jeff Kent (in that order) were the best 2B of their generation. None were perfect - defense, longevity, defense were their respective drawbacks - but all 3 should end up in Cooperstown.

[Raven Lunatic]

Craig Biggio, Robbie Alomar, Jeff Kent (in that order) were the best 2B of their generation. None were perfect - defense, longevity, defense were their respective drawbacks - but all 3 should end up in Cooperstown.

I thought Alomar was considered a good defensive 2B? Or am I confusing him with Sandy Alomar?

[Buck Turgidson]

I thought Alomar was considered a good defensive 2B? Or am I confusing him with Sandy Alomar?
I think you misread. He was beyond good. Best range you'll see at 2B. He was better all-around than Biggio in their prime, but his career fizzled out at age 34, really the only knock against his game.

[msn]

Wouldn't say he's "great" defensively either.
Why not, specifically? If Alomar had better range, then Alomar may have been greater, but I don't think Bidge won those GGs on reputation alone. That guy was amazing.

[rocketfan83]

He's gotta be. He's an absolute stud. I think the fact that he's been an astro his whole career will help him get in also.

Bagwell will eventually get in I think. Who was the guy that convinced the NFL HOF to get Moon in??? He should do something similar for bagwell. I don't think many of us expected Moon to get in first ballot.

Like others I've been watching Bidge and Bagwell forever. I was was like 8 when I caught my first astros game now I'm 22. It's pretty amazing that Bidge is still going strong. I wonder what job Bidge will have win he retires? Theres no doubt he's going to be an astro for life IMO. I always thought he would be the manager but theres no no way we can get rid of Gardner.

[Buck Turgidson]

Why not, specifically? If Alomar had better range, then Alomar may have been greater, but I don't think Bidge won those GGs on reputation alone. That guy was amazing.
He was good, very good even, but "greatness" in my mind is a more exclusive appellation. Bigg had very good range to his left, average-to-good range up the middle, had occasional trouble going back on popups, and had a pretty weak arm. I'm not trying to denigrate Biggio at all, just never thought of him as "great" or "amazing" on defense.

Alomar was head & shoulders a better 2B. Pokey Reese was as well.

I put little to no stock in Gold Gloves. Reputation, publicity & offensive numbers play a huge role. They gave one to Raffy Palmeiro in a year when he started 135 games...as the DH. Grace (a great defensive 1B) won 2 before Bags got his, and 3 after - only exception was during Bags's historical offensive year of '94. Why was that? Edmonds hasn't been a GG CFer in the past 2 years, but he gets penciled in. Jeter winning the last 2 years is a complete joke. Abreu's last year was on reputation alone. I could go on....

[msn]

He was good, very good even, but "greatness" in my mind is a more exclusive appellation. Bigg had very good range to his left, average-to-good range up the middle, had occasional trouble going back on popups, and had a pretty weak arm. I'm not trying to denigrate Biggio at all, just never thought of him as "great" or "amazing" on defense.
Understood--especially on the arm. His head was so good, it made up for some of the things that were only above average IMO.

Alomar was head & shoulders a better 2B. Pokey Reese was as well.
I'll just have to take your word for it; I never got to see much of these guys.

I put little to no stock in Gold Gloves. Reputation, publicity & offensive numbers play a huge role. They gave one to Raffy Palmeiro in a year when he started 135 games...as the DH. Grace (a great defensive 1B) won 2 before Bags got his, and 3 after - only exception was during Bags's historical offensive year of '94. Why was that? Edmonds hasn't been a GG CFer in the past 2 years, but he gets penciled in. Jeter winning the last 2 years is a complete joke. Abreu's last year was on reputation alone. I could go on....
You're right that many GG awards are a joke, but I always assumed you had to do *something* with the glove to get there at all, even if it was five or six years ago. And yeah, the Palmeiro thing was disgusting.

[rrj_gamz]

Yes, of course...He just needs the 3000 hits to cement it...

[Furious Jam]

I can't even imagine how there'd be room for debate. He's the best 2nd baseman of his generation, arguably the best overall player in Astros history, talented enough to play all over the field, and well-known for his effort, character, leadership, and durability. He's even got several charming quirks for the HOF voters to latch on to - the filthy helmet, the lead-off HRs, the HBP record, etc. True, he hasn't won a world series (yet), but the Astros have been one of the most successful franchises in baseball during his tenure. 3000 hits would only be the icing on the cake.

Watching ESPN, you might feel like nobody cares about any player who (A) doesn't have a HR record, (B) doesn't have a strikeout record, or (C) doesn't play in NYC or Boston. But HOF voters are all career baseball writers who know what Biggio is all about.

[Furious Jam]

Unquestionably, both Biggio & Bagwell deserve to be 1st ballot guys.

It would be so sweet if they could go into the Hall together, though that would take Bagwell getting left out for a year.

To quote Clint Eastwood, "deserve's got nothin' to do with it".

Bagwell will not be a 1st ballot guy. Considering the steroid era he played in, his numbers don't blow you away. Biggio was the best 2nd baseman of his generation. Can the same be said for Bagwell at 1st? Biggio's longevity (and the 3000 hits that come with it) seal his entry, but people's last memories of Bagwell will be his shoulder falling off.

[Buck Turgidson]

Biggio was the best 2nd baseman of his generation. Can the same be said for Bagwell at 1st?
Best 1B in the history of the National League. Not too shabby.

In your above post you said "HOF voters are all career baseball writers who know what Biggio is all about". Same goes for Bagwell.

[Furious Jam]

Best 1B in the history of the National League. Not too shabby.

In your above post you said "HOF voters are all career baseball writers who know what Biggio is all about". Same goes for Bagwell.

From ESPN's Rob Neyer (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=2385815&univLogin02=stateChanged): "I'm 95 percent sure that Bagwell belongs in the Hall of Fame, and I'm 75 percent sure he'll be elected to the Hall of Fame within the first few years of his eligibility. But it's by no means a sure thing, even if it should be."

Those are my feelings exactly. I have faith that Bags will get in, but I wouldn't say that he's a 1st ballot lock by any means.

[Buck Turgidson]

Those are my feelings exactly. I have faith that Bags will get in, but I wouldn't say that he's a 1st ballot lock by any means.
Time changes lots of perceptions. I have no idea how the BBWAA will view Bagwell in 2012. Cy Young wasn't a first-ballot HOFer either. ;)

Never said he was a lock, said he deserves it.

[msn]

Cy Young wasn't a first-ballot HOFer either. ;)
The Hall is just a tad more watered down than it was back in Cy's day. ;)

[My Lund]

charlie pallilo put together some stats on bagwell.

players who had 1500 rbi, 1500 runs, on base of over .400, and slugging over .750, and a fifth stat I can't remember,

the only other guys with those numbers,

ruth
mantle
gehrig
honus wagner
stan musial
jimmie foxx
bonds
ted williams

and a couple of others I can't remember. don't sell bagwell so short because he didn't hit 500 hrs.

Bagwell is also the only first baseman (I am 99% sure) to get at least 200 HRs and 200 stolen bases.

[texanskan]

Unquestionably, both Biggio & Bagwell deserve to be 1st ballot guys.

It would be so sweet if they could go into the Hall together, though that would take Bagwell getting left out for a year.

Biggio=First Ballot HOF

Bagwell=HOF but no way does he deserve to be a first ballot guy.

Biggio=Greatest Colt45/Astros ever!

[msn]

Bagwell=HOF but no way does he deserve to be a first ballot guy.
Give reasons why, comparing Bagwell to other HoF first basemen. And since the HoF is *far* more than HR, "he played in the steroid era" is far from enough.

[arkoe]

What is that stat they always show during the game where they talk about the number of extra base hits he has? I always see the very end of it and never get to hear what it is.

Nobody?

[Supermac34]

Here are my thoughts.

Biggio: He has played great at 2 positions, one of them being catcher, which is a big deal to baseball folks. He played CF when his team needed him to. He wasn't great at it, but he did what he needed to do for the team.

He will get 3000 hits. This is a huge number in baseball.

He was arguably the second best all around player in the majors in the decade of the 90s behind Griffey Jr. His run in the late 90s, while sometimes overshadowed by Bagwell's sexier numbers, was greatness.

He has done everything well. He fielded well, he hit for average and pop. He stole bases.

He is a gritty baseball player who other baseball players respect. He plays hard. He runs out fly balls, he slides hard, he does everything he can do to win.

A lot of people don't remember that one year when Bagwell had his hand broken and the Astros needed a power hitter, Biggio moved into the 3 hole in the lineup and hit for average and power.

He has played on one team his entire career.

He has been extraordinarily consistent. His level of play has gradually declined naturally with age, but he never has had a horrible off year that so many major leaguers, even great ones, go through.

Verdict: Biggio first ballot.

Bagwell:

Rookie of the Year

Gold Glover

MVP

Hit for high average, high power, low strike outs, and a ton of walks in most of his career. He had such a good eye...he walked a ton.

Had more steals from smart base running than he deserves. Over 200 I think.

Everybody in Houston loves Bagwell, and for as great as everybody in Houston thought he was, everybody else in the country thought he was greater. He is one of the very few Houston players from any sport that had more of a reputation in other parts of the country than he might have even had in Houston.

While Biggio was a great player and could beat you, Bagwell was the player that the opposing fans, pitchers, and teams feared.

I'm not going to go find it, but its out there if you google it, and I'm not even sure of the exact numbers, but a lot of baseball people use it: there is some kind of scientific scoring system that is being used to rate baseball players on every stat there is, weighted to what is more important. I forget the index that it is called, but it is recognized by baseball folks as legit. The players you expect to be at the top of the ranking are. Ruth, Mays, Williams, ect. are all at or near the top. When you run Bagwell's career numbers through the index, you actually see how monster his stats are compared to some of the greatest in the game. I believe he was in the top 4 or 5 first basemen ever, and I think he was in the top 50 baseball players ever. (I need to go find the ranking thing, maybe someone has seen it and go find it)

Put up those huge numbers despite missing significant time in the prime of his career with a broken hand (twice I think), spending a large amount of his career hitting in the Astrodome, and having his career and production cut short by a degenerative shoulder. Without the bad shoulder, he probably would still be a top first baseman.

If you compare his stats to an "average" HOF first baseman...they are better.

Played his entire career on the Astros.

Verdict: Bagwell first ballot

Both players are going to benefit from the overall lack of Astros in the HOF, there will be a push to put the second one in after the first one is elected, and the fact that they both were so integral to the Astros becoming one of the premier clubs in the league during the 90s and beyond, not to mention both playing their entire careers in Houston...they both get in first ballot.

They also benefit from pretty much never being jerks to the media and they kept their noses clean their entire careers. Pretty much people have only good things to say about them and that counts a lot.

[KingCheetah]

First ballot HOF -- absolutely, Biggio is in the rarified MLB air. :cool:

Biggio is an all time great and is still at the very top of his game.

Batting 347 at 40 -- are you kidding me!?

[texanskan]

[QUOTE=Supermac34]Here are my thoughts.
Both players are going to benefit from the overall lack of Astros in the HOF, there will be a push to put the second one in after the first one is elected, and the fact that they both were so integral to the Astros becoming one of the premier clubs in the league during the 90s and beyond, not to mention both playing their entire careers in Houston...they both get in first ballot.



Well we have been a winning organization since the mid 90s yes but premier? The last two seasons we have been premier before that we had not won ****. Now that we have cleared that up, Bagwell and Biggio both deserve lots of credit for turning around the Astros. When they got here the Astros were losers than they started to become an average to then above average team and now we are a top flight team that has become a world series contender.

I agree Biggio is a first ballot guy for all the reason you mentioned but I would just not be willing to put Bagwell in first ballot.

I have NO AS IN ZERO PROBLEMS with Bagwell in the hall but as I have watched him for 15+ years I just don't see a first ballot guy. My opinion of him is pretty high but he was never the best in the field and while he had a few monster seasons there were other first basemen from this era with very similar numbers.

My case against him being a first ballot guy is that he did not reach any magical milestones ie. 500 hr's or the 2,500+ hits. Now he did win a MVP and he did have something like 8 out of nine years of 100+ RBI's but to me those are only good enough to get in not have the honor of being a first ballot guy that should be reserved for only the greatest of the greats not just a very good player.

BTW Not counting the playoffs so we don't get into that tonight, Bagwell was just not clutch period.

I agree with your point about them being both great guys!

[toby]

If BGO continues to go at it for another year, they might go in together. Bags on his second ballot and craig on his first. seems only fitting.

[Supermac34]

Well we have been a winning organization since the mid 90s yes but premier? The last two seasons we have been premier before that we had not won ****. Now that we have cleared that up, Bagwell and Biggio both deserve lots of credit for turning around the Astros.

I have NO AS IN ZERO PROBLEMS with Bagwell in the hall but as I have watched him for 15+ years I just don't see a first ballot guy. My opinion of him is pretty high but he was never the best in the field and while he had a few monster seasons there were other first basemen from this era with very similar numbers.




I've got to disagree with you on a couple of points.

The Astros have turned into one of the premier organizations in the league.

I think only the Yankees, Red Sox and Braves have won more games than the Astros in the last 10 or so years. That's pretty good company. They are a pretty classy organization that is run very well. They are able to field competitve teams year in and year out without breaking the bank and they are fantastic at scouting and cultivating young talent.

I'd say that's a premier organization.


I also have to disagree with you on Bagwell's fielding. In his prime Bagwell was considered one of, if not THE best fielding first baseman in the league. Before his shoulder broke down, he had a decent arm for a first baseman, he routinely got to hard hit balls that other first basemen couldn't get to, and there was no player better at defending the bunt in the league. He was an excellent fielder.

On the last point...in his era, especially in his prime years, there was no first baseman close to as good as Bagwell. He was the best all around first baseman in the league...hitting, running and fielding.

EDIT: Found it. Adjusted OPS...or OPS+ is the new sexy stat to rate players against each other that play in different parks and different eras. Since Bagwell played 9 seasons in the Astrodome (example: 10 homeruns in Coors Field is a lot easier than 10 homeruns in the Astrodome) he gets more weight to those stats.

Jeff Bagwell's OPS+ for his career is 30th all time. His single season OPS+ in 1994 gives him one of the 10 greatest single seasons ever.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml

[My Lund]

[QUOTE=Supermac34]Here are my thoughts.
Both players are going to benefit from the overall lack of Astros in the HOF, there will be a push to put the second one in after the first one is elected, and the fact that they both were so integral to the Astros becoming one of the premier clubs in the league during the 90s and beyond, not to mention both playing their entire careers in Houston...they both get in first ballot.



Well we have been a winning organization since the mid 90s yes but premier? The last two seasons we have been premier before that we had not won ****. Now that we have cleared that up, Bagwell and Biggio both deserve lots of credit for turning around the Astros. When they got here the Astros were losers than they started to become an average to then above average team and now we are a top flight team that has become a world series contender.

I agree Biggio is a first ballot guy for all the reason you mentioned but I would just not be willing to put Bagwell in first ballot.

I have NO AS IN ZERO PROBLEMS with Bagwell in the hall but as I have watched him for 15+ years I just don't see a first ballot guy. My opinion of him is pretty high but he was never the best in the field and while he had a few monster seasons there were other first basemen from this era with very similar numbers.

My case against him being a first ballot guy is that he did not reach any magical milestones ie. 500 hr's or the 2,500+ hits. Now he did win a MVP and he did have something like 8 out of nine years of 100+ RBI's but to me those are only good enough to get in not have the honor of being a first ballot guy that should be reserved for only the greatest of the greats not just a very good player.

BTW Not counting the playoffs so we don't get into that tonight, Bagwell was just not clutch period.

I agree with your point about them being both great guys!

Man you must not have watched the Astros a lot in the 90's because Bagwell was a dynamite defensively. I have seen tons of badass double plays he has turned off sac bunts. He also had pretty good range and had a decent arm.

[msn]

My opinion of him is pretty high but he was never the best in the field and while he had a few monster seasons there were other first basemen from this era with very similar numbers.
There were a number with similar numbers--but who was better? Name names, and I'll shoot them down with easily demonstrable facts, because no one was better. Nobody.

My case against him being a first ballot guy is that he did not reach any magical milestones ie. 500 hr's or the 2,500+ hits.
I tend to think that's pretty shallow, but it's nonetheless valid as there are some voters who also think that way.

Bagwell was just not clutch period.
You must have been asleep for much of those 15 years. You don't get in excess of 1500 RBIs by not hitting in key situations. There are those that have argued that Bagwell only got RBIs when the Astros were far ahead or far behind in the score, and that's just stupid.

I agree with your point about them being both great guys!
I think we're all agreed about that!

[BSW]

Bagwell and Biggio played most of their years in the Dome, which makes the numbers even more impressive for both of them since it was a pitcher friendly park.

[DaDakota]

Bagwell and Biggio played most of their years in the Dome, which makes the numbers even more impressive for both of them since it was a pitcher friendly park.


This is a great point, imagine their numbers if they played even 5 more years at MMP?

WOW !!!

DD

[ROXRAN]

To me it is telling of 3000 hits being the one stat that truly means achievement...Going from 2,999 hits to 3,000 hits is somehow a big acheivement...I don't think any other stat has this ring, not even SB or HR...you know what I mean? As an example 499 HR to 500 HR doesn't really elevate HoF status, but hits does...

As it should I believe since the great Roberto Clemente topped at 3,000 hits exactly before he died on the plane for a humanitarian mission, his body never found...That number SHOULD carry significant weight and achievement, perhaps moreso than other milestones...

[GreenVegan76]

Biggio is a no-brainer first-year selection. He's one of the top 10 second basemen of all time.

Unfortunately, he's the type of player who does lots of things well instead of excelling at one crowd-pleasing skill. But he's one of the best all-around baseball players of the last 20 years.

The Astros won't be the same when Biggio retires.