View Full Version : Dontrelle Willis - What would it take for him to be an Astro?
Dream34
04-24-2006, 02:32 PM
Living in South Florida I was listening to Sports talk radio and they were talking about how Dontrel was most likely going to be traded before the All Star break.
They said that Omar Manya of the Mets turned down trading David Wright for Dontrel Willis (as the primary players).
How would this work if Roger decided to return (prior to the All Star break) and Dontrel was being shopped during that time frame. Would the Astros make a serious play? I would think if a top quality starter is being offered you have to listen. What players would you offer to the Marlins in a trade for Willis?
I would rather have Miguel Cabrerra but I do not see him being traded (at least not this year).
geeimsobored
04-24-2006, 02:33 PM
If they're asking for guys like David Wright, then there's no way we can pull this one off.
MadMax
04-24-2006, 02:35 PM
it would have to be a package of prospects. i'm sure chris burke would be included.
Jugdish
04-24-2006, 02:42 PM
The grace of God.
gwayneco
04-24-2006, 02:46 PM
The Carlyle Group would have to approve it.
It would take Troy Patton, Chris Burke... and a package that included either Jason Hirsch, Hunter Pence, Fernando Nieve or Taylor Buchholz.
They want guys who are either in the minors, or have only been in MLB for a year or 2 years.
Living in South Florida I was listening to Sports talk radio and they were talking about how Dontrel was most likely going to be traded before the All Star break.
They said that Omar Manya of the Mets turned down trading David Wright for Dontrel Willis (as the primary players).
How would this work if Roger decided to return (prior to the All Star break) and Dontrel was being shopped during that time frame. Would the Astros make a serious play? I would think if a top quality starter is being offered you have to listen. What players would you offer to the Marlins in a trade for Willis?
I would rather have Miguel Cabrerra but I do not see him being traded (at least not this year).
Probably some top prospects since the Marlins want to cut the budget even more...
Dream34
04-24-2006, 03:07 PM
plee,
I realize they are looking for top prospects. I was looking for the names of the specific top prospects the Astros would have to trade to acquire him.
Nick,
Thanks for the insight. Would you be willing to part with the package of players you referenced for Willis?
MykTek
04-24-2006, 03:07 PM
prob burke and buckholz for sure....prob would want 1 of these guys jimerson/pence/patton/hirsh.... and others......
it would be giving up way too much... I think... I mean Willis is great, but is it worth morgaging(however u spell it) the future......
Jugdish
04-24-2006, 03:26 PM
prob burke and buckholz for sure....prob would want 1 of these guys jimerson/pence/patton/hirsh.... and others......
it would be giving up way too much... I think... I mean Willis is great, but is it worth morgaging(however u spell it) the future......
I'm surprised we could give up that little. I guess he's so young he hasn't signed his extension?
It is worth it because it would give us the best rotation in the majors.
plee,
I realize they are looking for top prospects. I was looking for the names of the specific top prospects the Astros would have to trade to acquire him.
Nick,
Thanks for the insight. Would you be willing to part with the package of players you referenced for Willis?
I would rather see Patton pitch at AA ball. If he's as good as his numbers show, he shouldn't have any problem making that transition... and once he's in AA ball, he can be in the majors within a year or two tops. He's still young, still building up arm strength on a pitch count, but has loads of potential.
Any package would have to include him. Whether or not the Stros should do it... I have no clue. On the one hand, Patton is still far away from the majors... and a number of things could happen along his pre-prepared track to stardom (see Carlos Hernandez). On the other hand, he could be better than Dontrelle... and be fully under organizational control for at least 6 years.
I guess its kinda like the Lidge/Burke for Tejada trade... if it goes thru, it would make our team better in certain ways... but if it didn't go thru, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
Saint Louis
04-24-2006, 03:48 PM
If the young arms keep pitching like they have been and Wilson keeps putting up K's at a record pace, I don't see Tim Purpura pulling the trigger on any deal. He'll keep his young pitchers and insert Burke into the lineup instead of Wilson. Purpura prefers to bring up his own players from within the organization.
bigboymumu
04-24-2006, 03:54 PM
It would take Troy Patton, Chris Burke... and a package that included either Jason Hirsch, Hunter Pence, Fernando Nieve or Taylor Buchholz.
They want guys who are either in the minors, or have only been in MLB for a year or 2 years.
I would not do that deal!
Supermac34
04-24-2006, 04:14 PM
I kind of like the Marlins way of doing things. Every time you get a star player you trade him for as many top prospects as possible.
That way every couple years you end up with a World Series caliber team. Then you trade all the top players from that team for as many top prospects as possible and you play them. They develop faster, get better faster, then in a couple of years you have a World Series caliber team again.
Its like they are playing the averages. Some percentage of top prospects become great players. The trick is to get enough top prospects to where you can fill out a roster with prospects who hit it big.
It seems to have worked so far.
It seems to have worked so far.
This isn't a "strategy" being employed because it works... its being employed because they can't afford the players they signed to FA deals (like Delgado) since they didn't get their new stadium approved.
The bottom line is that die-hard fans can't continue to support a team that will openly have a fire sale whenever they want... of course, since they're not getting a new stadium that a lot of other cities gave their teams, let them move and see if this behavior continues (it probably won't).
I actually like the A's strategy better... sometimes they purposely would rather not trade a guy before he's a FA, because they stay better longer, and they get more draft picks... where they can pick and choose which players they need to fit their system.
Supermac34
04-24-2006, 04:38 PM
This isn't a "strategy" being employed because it works... its being employed because they can't afford the players they signed to FA deals (like Delgado) since they didn't get their new stadium approved.
The bottom line is that die-hard fans can't continue to support a team that will openly have a fire sale whenever they want... of course, since they're not getting a new stadium that a lot of other cities gave their teams, let them move and see if this behavior continues (it probably won't).
I actually like the A's strategy better... sometimes they purposely would rather not trade a guy before he's a FA, because they stay better longer, and they get more draft picks... where they can pick and choose which players they need to fit their system.
Well, they've won a couple of World Series. They are doing something right. If they had just won one, that would be something, but they've won two in the last 10 years.
In the last 10 years, the Astros have been one of the best teams in baseball overall. The Marlins of gone from crappy to championships a couple of times.
I'd rather have 2 championships.
Well, they've won a couple of World Series. They are doing something right. If they had just won one, that would be something, but they've won two in the last 10 years.
In the last 10 years, the Astros have been one of the best teams in baseball overall. The Marlins of gone from crappy to championships a couple of times.
I'd rather have 2 championships.
Maybe before the last two years, I would have agreed with you, but getting to watch this team struggle, persevere, and finally break through... and to see guys like Biggio, Berkman, Oswalt, Ensberg, and Lidge (organizational guys) make it to the World Series... that was extra-special.
If we were doing buisiness like the Marlins, you wouldn't have Oswalt, Pettite, Berkman, or even Lidge anymore... and even if they fielded a team that caught lightning in the bottle and won a championship, what difference does it make if they're going to gut the team in just a year.
Cheering for the players who help get the team to the title is more than half the fun. In the end, the Marlins aren't going to be known as some "successful" franchise, even though they have won a World Series... their way of doing business repels everyone.
Nice Rollin
04-24-2006, 04:49 PM
ensberg and lane is what it would take....stros would be stupid to do it
MadMax
04-24-2006, 04:52 PM
Florida has no ties with the Marlins. They win and sell off. Despite their two championships, no one there cares. The team never endeared itself to the city.
And when they lose...they flat out lose. It sucks big to have your baseball team out of the race by June. Makes for a very long summer. And they've had that experience a lot in Florida.
There is no way in the world I would trade the Astros past 10 years for the Marlins past 10 years. No way.
Baqui99
04-24-2006, 04:54 PM
There is no way in the world I would trade the Astros past 10 years for the Marlins past 10 years. No way.
http://members.cox.net/texasownzyou10/wow.gif
I'd trade every last division championship banner in MMP for one of Florida's WS Championships.
ensberg and lane is what it would take....stros would be stupid to do it
Ensberg is going on his 5th year of service time... meaning he'll be a FA in 2 years. No way the Marlins want him.
They may take Lane as filler... but they're looking for superstar prospects, not decent role-players.
rrj_gamz
04-24-2006, 04:55 PM
For this year only, why wouldn't you do this...You'll have to give away talent, but that's the trade off...
arkoe
04-24-2006, 04:55 PM
It's like Florida decided to take over the old Montreal Expo's role of developing excellent young players that they can't afford to keep.
Nick, just to clarify, you're not calling Ensberg a "role player filler," correct?
http://members.cox.net/texasownzyou10/wow.gif
I'd trade every last division championship banner in MMP for one of Florida's WS Championships.
Would you also trade them knowing that the team that you got so excited about winning the WS for your city ends up getting sold off? Or worse, that team moves?
What if the Rockets sold off Hakeem, Mario, Horry and Cassell after the first championship... and by some stroke of luck, landed Yao Ming in 10 years... won another championship, and sold him right after that. Sure, you have two rings... and you're still the laughing stock of the entire league (like the Marlins have been, and always will be).
Everybody says "team-first"... but you love the team more when you're attached to the players. If you can't get attached to the players, I don't believe you have a real love for the team... which is why the Texans have struggled to develop real die-hards that really care when they win/lose.
It's like Florida decided to take over the old Montreal Expo's role of developing excellent young players that they can't afford to keep.
Nick, just to clarify, you're not calling Ensberg a "role player filler," correct?
I was referring to Lane (who's only a role player now... that could get better, but not that much better).
HAYJON02
04-24-2006, 05:13 PM
I don't think that by including mutiple prospects you're mortgaging your future. If we have a chance to have a rotation of Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte, Willis, Jeff Bagwell, I think we have to do it! Yes Jeff Bagwell! Bc we'll only need 4 pitchers in the playoffs and Bagwell can move to outfield! :D
But yeah, go for Dontrelle.
Burzmali
04-24-2006, 06:27 PM
Let's say this is the pool of talent available:
Pitchers:
Hirsh
Patton
Buchholz
Nieve
Wandy
Backe
Bartheimer
Hitters:
Pence
Burke
Lane
I would give up 1 of Hirsh, Patton, and Buchholz, plus 2 more players. Just based on what Buchholz has shown this season early, something about him just screams BAMF.
I don't think that by including mutiple prospects you're mortgaging your future. If we have a chance to have a rotation of Oswalt, Clemens, Pettitte, Willis, Jeff Bagwell, I think we have to do it! Yes Jeff Bagwell! Bc we'll only need 4 pitchers in the playoffs and Bagwell can move to outfield! :D
But yeah, go for Dontrelle.
Its easy to say that now... but had the Astros traded Oswalt, Ensberg and Lidge 6 years ago (which was a distinct possibility) for a guy like Kevin Brown or Kevin Millwood (both decent pitchers who could have been acquired in the 90's)... it would look terrible.
Of course, hindsight is too good... its perfect... and we'd never know if this trade worked or not unless those prospects eventually failed (which we won't know for sure until another 2-4 years).
If I was talking to the Marlins, it would be about Miguel Cabrera not Dontrelle Willis.
Vengeance
04-24-2006, 07:08 PM
I would LOVE to get Willis -- as long as it's not completely insane, I say do what it takes to get him here, if it's a possiblity. The guy is a proven Pro commodity, he's almost as good as Oswalt, and he's 24. Imagine having both Oswalt and Willis in the rotation for the next six years . . .
Nice Rollin
04-24-2006, 07:11 PM
Ensberg is going on his 5th year of service time... meaning he'll be a FA in 2 years. No way the Marlins want him.
They may take Lane as filler... but they're looking for superstar prospects, not decent role-players.
wouldnt that be a reason why they would do it? get him along with other before he cashes in his new payday.
wouldnt that be a reason why they would do it? get him along with other before he cashes in his new payday.
They want to keep guys and build a team strictly around really young players... they would keep Ensberg for at most one year before having to trade him again because of that impending pay-day.
That's why they want prospects... once they make it to the big leagues, they have that much less time before they become free agents.
Major
04-24-2006, 07:17 PM
wouldnt that be a reason why they would do it? get him along with other before he cashes in his new payday.
They already have that in Willis. They want guys they'll be able to keep 5+ years without having to pay much.
The Real Shady
04-24-2006, 08:01 PM
I would give them Hirsh, Burke, and Neive. The only player I would be opposed to giving up is Troy Patton.
Get'er done Purpura.
Of course this is only neccessary if Roger doesn't come back.
gr8-1
04-24-2006, 10:29 PM
http://members.cox.net/texasownzyou10/wow.gif
I'd trade every last division championship banner in MMP for one of Florida's WS Championships.
What about the wild card banners?
one of the best reasons, at least to me, to get DW . . . is to prevent someone else from getting him. The last thing i want to see is for him to end up in stl or chicubs with us not even a player. If he's on the market, he makes you better . . . however you slice the pie. Just make for damn sure that if you can't get him, no other NL power gets him.
Jared Novak
04-24-2006, 11:47 PM
Let's say this is the pool of talent available:
Pitchers:
Hirsh
Patton
Buchholz
Nieve
Wandy
Backe
Bartheimer
Hitters:
Pence
Burke
Lane
I would give up 1 of Hirsh, Patton, and Buchholz, plus 2 more players. Just based on what Buchholz has shown this season early, something about him just screams BAMF.
The Marlins would probably ask for Patton, Nieve and Pence as a starting point, you're not going to acquire Dontrelle Willis for average minor leaguers, they want the prospects that are at the top of the organization's farm system.
I think the price tag for Willis is going to be very high in terms of the prospects that you'll have to give up to acquire him. Just think about it, if someone asked you what it would take to acquire Oswalt from the Astros what would you demand? Willis is the Marlins' top pitcher and the price to get him will be a king's ransom.
MykTek
04-25-2006, 04:08 AM
this thread makes me think about if we had protected Johan Santana...and didn't lose him in the Rule 5 draft.... *sigh*
RocketMan Tex
04-25-2006, 09:28 AM
I don't want Dontrelle Willis on the Astros.
I would rather the Astros develop their own young pitching talent.
bigboymumu
04-25-2006, 03:19 PM
I don't want Dontrelle Willis on the Astros.
I would rather the Astros develop their own young pitching talent.
Amen. Patton should be UNTOUCHABLE! He is Willis with a better arm! Yep, a cannon for an arm!!!!
their way of doing business repels everyone.
Except, evidently, fans of other MLB franchises.
Supermac34
04-25-2006, 08:26 PM
Amen. Patton should be UNTOUCHABLE! He is Willis with a better arm! Yep, a cannon for an arm!!!!
Kind of like when the Astros could have traded for Clemens about 5 years before they actually signed him if they would have just been willing to part with Scott Elerton.
If you have to part with an unproven prospect for Willis, you do it, then you give him as much money as it takes to lock him up long term.
He's awesome and proven and he's 24 or 25 years old. He'll be an ace for the next 8+ years.
It isn't like you would be trading away a bunch of players for an old veteran that might pitch half a year. You would be trading for a proven, young, studly ace pitcher that could team up with Oswalt for the best one-two punch in baseball for the next few years.
Angle02
04-25-2006, 08:37 PM
Kind of like when the Astros could have traded for Clemens about 5 years before they actually signed him if they would have just been willing to part with Scott Elerton.
If you have to part with an unproven prospect for Willis, you do it, then you give him as much money as it takes to lock him up long term.
He's awesome and proven and he's 24 or 25 years old. He'll be an ace for the next 8+ years.
It isn't like you would be trading away a bunch of players for an old veteran that might pitch half a year. You would be trading for a proven, young, studly ace pitcher that could team up with Oswalt for the best one-two punch in baseball for the next few years.
I thought Hildago was apart of that deal to get Clemens. :confused:
wrath_of_khan
04-25-2006, 08:43 PM
I thought Hildago was apart of that deal to get Clemens. :confused:
Yes, it was both Hidalgo and Elarton, IIRC.
The point is that refusing to give up an unproven youngster for someone who's proven they can compete at the highesst level isn't always the right move.
Vengeance
04-25-2006, 08:47 PM
Yes, it was both Hidalgo and Elarton, IIRC.
The point is that refusing to give up an unproven youngster for someone who's proven they can compete at the highesst level isn't always the right move.
Exactly. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the (rumored?) Rockets' refusal to give up Rodrick Rhodes in the failed Damon Stoudamire deal.
Buck Turgidson
04-25-2006, 08:50 PM
The point is that refusing to give up an unproven youngster for someone who's proven they can compete at the highesst level isn't always the right move.
Roger & the Hendricks brothers also made it known that they wanted his contract renegotiated (with a substantial increase) by whatever team acquired him. That's when Gerry went ballistic to the media & the trade talks were dead.
That's the main reason Gerry was not involved in the negotiations b/t the Clemens camp & the Astros...lots of bad blood still there.
Supermac34
04-25-2006, 11:45 PM
Well, I've been looking at Troy Patton's info. He does look like the real deal.
He's only given up 1 ER this year and he's 0-2? That's got to suck. I like the .68 ERA and 16 Ks in 13 innings.
Still, Willis is proven and he was born in 1982.
wrath_of_khan
04-26-2006, 09:31 AM
Roger & the Hendricks brothers also made it known that they wanted his contract renegotiated (with a substantial increase) by whatever team acquired him. That's when Gerry went ballistic to the media & the trade talks were dead.
That's the main reason Gerry was not involved in the negotiations b/t the Clemens camp & the Astros...lots of bad blood still there.
Yeah, I remember that very clearly. I just wanted to make sure the previous poster knew that it was Hidalgo and Elarton.
Roger's renegotiation demands during that while fiasco are when I really started to hate the guy ...
... until he was on our team, of course! :)
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