[YAHOO] Reggie Bush Family Home - NCAA Violations

[Baqui99]

This sounds really shady, especially seeing how his family moved out of the $750k home less than 24 hours after being confronted by Yahoo News.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Aqtx7spyzR16xVoPl3wPTLc5nYcB?slug=cr-bush042306&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Yahoo! Sports report: Reggie Bush's family home

By Charles Robinson, Yahoo! Sports
April 23, 2006


SPRING VALLEY, Calif. – In this sprawling hilltop community with a breathtaking view of Sweetwater Lake, it was no secret who lived in the 3,000-square-foot house at the corner of Apple Street and Luther Avenue.

That home, residents would tell you, was where Reggie Bush's family lived.

That is, until this weekend, when the family abruptly packed up and vacated the residence – less than 24 hours after Yahoo! Sports approached Bush's mother about information linking the property to Michael Michaels, a man who is alleged to have tried to play a role in steering Bush toward an agent and who also has ties to a sports marketing company.

Days before Bush is expected to be the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft, unanswered questions about the residence and how his mother, stepfather and brother came to live in it within the last year have prompted the University of Southern California to refer the matter to the Pacific-10 Conference for an investigation.

NCAA statutes prohibit student-athletes or their families from receiving extra benefits from professional sports agents, marketing companies or their representatives. A breach of these statutes could result in an athlete being ruled ineligible, and games in which they played could be forfeited.

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USC finished 12-1 last season, its 35-game winning streak and national championship bid both ending with a loss in the Rose Bowl to Texas. Bush, a junior running back, won the Heisman Trophy and elected to skip his senior season and turn pro in January.

In response to reporters' questions about the matter late last week, USC athletic department officials said they would look into it.

"Rather than jumping to conclusions, we need to determine the facts before commenting on this report," Trojans athletic director Mike Garrett said in a statement released by the school on Friday. "We have asked the Pac-10 to look into this."

State records show the Apple Street home was built in late 2004 and early 2005, then purchased by Michaels on March 29, 2005 for $757,500. Around that time, neighbors say Bush's family moved in. Whether they had visited the house while it was being built is unknown, but there is an inscription in one of the cement slabs in the driveway reading "The Griffins '05."

Michaels is the only person who has been listed on the deed to the home.

Bush's mother, Denise Griffin, was approached in the driveway of the house on Thursday, but declined to comment.

"I have absolutely nothing to say," Griffin said when asked about ownership of the property, which is where Bush's mother, stepfather LaMar and brother Jovan lived during USC's 2005 season.

Before moving to the house on Apple Lane, Bush's family was listed as living in an apartment elsewhere in Spring Valley, a community located about 13 miles east of San Diego.

At some point after Bush's family moved into the residence, Michaels and an associate named Lloyd Lake are said to have contacted San Diego-based sports agent David Caravantes and offered to facilitate Bush's recruitment. A source with intimate knowledge of the meeting said it took place during the 2005 college football season and that Michaels was looking for a local agent to handle the contract negotiations for players he intended to sign to his marketing firm.

Michaels and Lake told Caravantes they were planning to start a sports marketing agency with Bush as their anchor client. It was also during this meeting that Michaels and Lake mentioned the potential name of the agency: New Era Sports & Entertainment.

The pitch to Caravantes was said to have been simple: He would be Bush's agent and Michaels' marketing creation would handle the promotion of the USC star. At some point after pitching this idea, Michaels informed Caravantes that Bush's family was living in a home Michaels owned. Caravantes isn't believed to have met with Bush and was never considered to be in the mix before the USC star hired Reebok adviser Mike Ornstein and agent Joel Segal of Worldwide Football Inc. as his representatives.

Repeated attempts to reach Segal and Bush were unsuccessful.

While it's unclear what official role Michaels played in New Era Sports, indications are that the company barely got off the ground – if at all. According to corporation filings in California, paperwork for New Era Sports & Entertainment was drawn up on Nov. 23, 2005, and records list the business address in Los Angeles under an attorney named Phillip M. Smith Jr.

Contacted late last week, Smith Jr. refused to talk about New Era Sports – even declining to give public details such as a phone number for the company, where the New Era offices were located or who was serving as the company's current president or manager.

Asked why he wouldn't provide such information, Smith ended the brief telephone conversation, saying, "That's really not an issue that I want to deal with." He has failed to return multiple follow-up messages left at his office.

Further attempts to identify New Era produced a single web page with a company logo (http://newerasports.tv/) that contains no active links to indicate where New Era is located, what services are provided or how the company could be contacted. Searches also produced the internet blogs of three self-proclaimed employees of New Era Sports. One such blog included the company logo of New Era and pictures of several NFL players. That blog was taken down shortly after Yahoo! Sports obtained a hard-copy of the page.

Contacted about his alleged meeting with Michaels, Caravantes declined to comment.

Michaels – who is a member of the Sycuan Indian Tribe and works as a business development officer for the tribe's development corporation – failed to return multiple phone calls and was unavailable when Yahoo! Sports visited his home on three occasions this weekend.

The Sycuan tribe, which owns a casino and resort and is engaged in a number of business enterprises in the San Diego area, denied any knowledge of Michaels' relationship with the Bush family.

"The tribe is not aware of his involvement," said spokesman Adam Day, who had been approved to speak for the Sycuan's tribal government. "Any involvement that he has in this situation is his personal involvement. It has no connection or correlation to the tribe, its businesses or Mike's employment by the tribal development corporation.

"What tribal members do on their own time is their own business. It's not the business of the tribe."

Back at the house on Apple Street on Saturday afternoon, the moving trucks had come and gone. A flier offering cleaning services for movers was hung on the front door, and all the shades had been drawn shut. Through a garage window, only a few empty cardboard boxes and straggling trinkets were visible.

Across the street, neighbor Grant Sitton could only shrug.

"I don't know, I guess it didn't work out," Sitton said. "Oh well. They have a big payday coming next week anyway."

[SwoLy-D]

In the sicky'd Bush or Young or Someone Else thread (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=2292085#post2292085)

[mrdave543]

give vince the heisman!!!!! This does deserve its own thread though

[tigermission1]

Who gives a sh!t, he's going to be a pro now.

We would be kidding ourselves to think that this stuff doesn't go on all the time with top prospects in the NCAA or even in high school. Lebron had a similar situation, the Fab Five, and bunch of other athletes.

That's just the nature of the beast whenever a lot of money is involved. Corporations and agents will find a way to get around the rules no matter what.

The NCAA can limit it, but they can't eliminate it.

I guess the Reggie Bush haters are desperate...

[mrdave543]

Who gives a sh!t, he's going to be a pro now.

We would be kidding ourselves to think that this stuff doesn't go on all the time with top prospects in the NCAA or even in high school. Lebron had a similar situation, the Fab Five, and bunch of other athletes.

That's just the nature of the beast whenever a lot of money is involved. Corporations and agents will find a way to get around the rules no matter what.

The NCAA can limit it, but they can't eliminate it.

I guess the Reggie Bush haters are desperate...

desperate??? the family moved out in 24 hrs!!!! i mean at least try and deny it!! geez

[SuperS32]

So you're saying it's OK for Bush and Co., but meanwhile schools like SMU should get the death penalty because there "isn't as much money on the line"? Great logic.

[SwoLy-D]

The NCAA can limit it, but they can't eliminate it.

I guess the Reggie Bush haters are desperate...So if it were anyone else as a perpetrator, and the investigation found the family and the player guilty, could the NCAA eliminate the player and the family from further anything? Could the NFL also punish and fine the family and player? What do you think?

[Rocket Fan]

If true, it is totally unacceptable.

Someone said who cares?

I care, and just because a lot of players do it does not mean we should accept it.

[bobrek]

I'm more surprised that you can pruchase a 3000+ square foot house in southern California for $750K.

[Harrisment]

http://www.skobba.com/var/plain/storage/images/pictures/man_made/artifacts/colourfull_straws/651-1-eng-GB/colourfull_straws_large.jpg

[Storm Surge]

If true, it is totally unacceptable.

Someone said who cares?

I care, and just because a lot of players do it does not mean we should accept it.
EVERYONE does it, you're fooling yourself if you think that this is just a rare occurrence. I'd bet my money that Vince Young, or every single one of the top players have something like that.

[Rocket Fan]

bobrek.. that is what I was going to say..

[Rocket Fan]

storm.. so everyone does it, so we should accept it?

and everyone doesn't do it.. there are probably quite a few who do..

But I'm sure there are quite a few first rounders who don't have something like that going on...

And I would bash Cutler (someone from my own school). if anything ever came out that he was getting payments etc

[Rocket Fan]

Also I am someone who has always been pro drafting bush..

And I'd say you are fooling yourself if you think EVERYONE does it.. there are plenty of players who don't do it.. and the everyone does it thing usually is used to justify the behavior..

so I wouldn't bet that EVERY top player does it

[The Cat]

I guess the Reggie Bush haters are desperate...

We're talking about an allegation that's potentially serious enough to force USC to forfeit their entire 2005 season, and you chalk it up to "desperate haters"? Wow. I understand and to a large extent agree with your point of view, but it's a big deal to a lot of people and it's not merely because they don't like Reggie Bush.

[Rocket Fan]

For the record, I'm a Bush supporter not a Bush hater..

I think it is unfair for people to automatically say .. im sure vince does it, etc.. unfair to group all players in and say everyone does it...

(And I couldn't care less about Vince Young considering I am not a fan of Texas or anything.. so I'm not just saying this to prop Vince)

[percicles]

So you can gauge the severity of the issue with Bush, it dwarfs Adrian Peterson's "rental-car" investigation.

I'm disgusted.


....as of today VY's family still lives in the Hiram Clark. Not a very posh neighborhood.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=84461

Oklahoma: Peterson's car deal legit

Posted: April 19, 2006

Associated Press

NORMAN, Okla. -- Oklahoma running back Adrian Peterson did not violate NCAA regulations by buying a car and returning it several weeks later, the school's compliance department has determined.
Peterson, the runner-up for the 2004 Heisman Trophy, secured a financing agreement and drove the car for several weeks last winter but then returned it, said Bonita Jackson, Peterson's mother.

"We were gonna purchase the car, but the payments were gonna be too high, so we took the car back," Jackson told The Oklahoman, which first reported the story Wednesday.

Oklahoma officials determined Peterson did not receive an extra benefit that is not available to the general student body.


"Federal law pertaining to students prohibits the discussion of internal reviews in specific terms, but we did initiate a review pertaining to an automobile dealership and its interaction with a student-athlete," Oklahoma associate athletic director Keith Gill said in a statement. "We have pursued the matter in exhaustive fashion over a five-month period. Based on the information we have gathered, we do not believe NCAA rules violations have occurred."

The dealership, Big Red Sports and Imports, regularly allowed customers who signed contracts to drive the cars for a period of time before financing had been secured, said Brad McRae, the dealership's part-owner at the time of Peterson's agreement.

"We didn't do anything wrong," McRae said. "Is it standard operating business practice? Yes, it's standard operating business practice."

Peterson's stepfather said his family is committed to keeping Peterson eligible for football.

"This is our child's future," Frankie Jackson said. "We don't want anything to happen to him because of some silly car deal. We're not going to do anything to jeopardize his future."

Oklahoma also investigated the employment of football players by the dealership but found no violations.

[Rocket Fan]

I should also say I'm not ready to judge this as being true until I hear more about it..

[RocketJedi]

I should also say I'm not ready to judge this as being true until I hear more about it..

I posted this over at the official site:

I wonder if this Bush story is what they were referring to:



POSTED 9:24 p.m. EDT; UPDATED 11:16 p.m. EDT, April 15, 2006

INDIAN RESERVATION LOOKING TO SCALP A FIRST-ROUNDER?

There's a rumor running rampant through agent circles regarding a first-round prospect in the NFL draft who is getting the screws put to him by, of all things, an Indian reservation.

We've heard from multiple agents that an Indian reservation hoping to start a sports agency bought the prospect's parents a house and began to make payments on it. Once the prospect signed with a different agent, the Indians stopped making payments -- and are now threatening to go public.

We've also heard that said prospect has hired a lawyer to deal with the situation.

For now, the player will remain nameless in this space, since we don't know whether it's a wild rumor or whether it's true. We'll leave it to the real journalists out there to run with this one. You know, the guys with real resources and real legal departments and real insurance policies to cover real lawsuits.

Although the folks who made the improper payments would face no NFLPA-imposed discipline since they weren't licensed agents, there could be criminal liability under applicable state law. But the ability to exact revenge on the prospect by disclosing the payments in the days leading up to the draft might justify any consequences the Indians could face.

For the prospect in question, the news -- if true -- is highly unlikely to affect his draft stock. But it could possibly diminish his marketability in off-field pursuits, especially if the payments from the Indian reservation spark a broader inquiry that yields evidence of more extensive payments to the player.

We likely won't say anything more about this one, publicly or privately, until someone else reports on it. And if we learn that the rumor is unfounded, we'll post that information here, too.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm


I usually balk at Pro Football Talk, but sometimes they are right, or at least partially.



Michaels – who is a member of the Sycuan Indian Tribe and works as a business development officer for the tribe's development corporation – failed to return multiple phone calls and was unavailable when Yahoo! Sports visited his home on three occasions this weekend.

The Sycuan tribe, which owns a casino and resort and is engaged in a number of business enterprises in the San Diego area, denied any knowledge of Michaels' relationship with the Bush family.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns


From the Yahoo story.

[Rocket Fan]

JEDI.. very interesting...

I don't know why anyone would risk being involved in this for a 750k house when they would be making millions in the pros...

how nice of a house does 750k even buy you in california?

[percicles]

I posted this over at the official site:

What cowards!!!! They have no qualms dropping VY's name when they report a "rumor" but they withhold naming the sacred prince of SoCal even though 1 major news group is reporting it. Pathetic.

[Baqui99]

JEDI.. very interesting...

I don't know why anyone would risk being involved in this for a 750k house when they would be making millions in the pros...

how nice of a house does 750k even buy you in california?

According to the article,

Before moving to the house on Apple Lane, Bush's family was listed as living in an apartment elsewhere in Spring Valley, a community located about 13 miles east of San Diego.

So, for them, the move to the $750K house is a huge upgrade. Accepting money or other gifts from agents is a serious NCAA violation, and can warrant sanctions such as loss of scholarships or forfeit of games. If the NCAA found out about this during the season, Bush would have been ineligible.

[Rocket Fan]

baqui.. oh didn't see that part, so yeah it is an upgrade and I'm sure a nice house..

but why would you risk this.. just wait a few months until the guy goes pro to get a house

[RocketForever]

How could you buy a 3000 sq ft brand new house in southern cal for 750k in 2005?

[The Real Shady]

As long as it doesn't effect Bush in the pros/Texans I could care less. Screw USC.

[tigermission1]

As long as it doesn't effect Bush in the pros/Texans I could care less. Screw USC.

Ditto.

May be Subway bought it for him ;)

[arkoe]

This will be forgotten in a week.

Somebody that isn't a mobster offers me a house or a car, I'm not turning it down.

[gucci888]

Who gives a sh!t, he's going to be a pro now.

We would be kidding ourselves to think that this stuff doesn't go on all the time with top prospects in the NCAA or even in high school. Lebron had a similar situation, the Fab Five, and bunch of other athletes.

That's just the nature of the beast whenever a lot of money is involved. Corporations and agents will find a way to get around the rules no matter what.

The NCAA can limit it, but they can't eliminate it.

I guess the Reggie Bush haters are desperate...

Lebron's mother bought a $50,000 hummer, he got a couple jerseys. Kids from Ohio State got a couple g's. The difference is that one is a $750,000 home!! A lot of people can buy cars (especially when your son is going to be rich, you can afford to spend some of your savings). But not many people can go from living in an apartment to purchases a 3/4 Million dollar home.

It's not all that big of a deal to me because it won't affect the draft. But just because it happens, that doesn't mean it's okay.

[percicles]

Lebron's mother bought a $50,000 hummer, he got a couple jerseys. Kids from Ohio State got a couple g's. The difference is that one is a $750,000 home!! A lot of people can buy cars (especially when your son is going to be rich, you can afford to spend some of your savings). But not many people can go from living in an apartment to purchases a 3/4 Million dollar home.

It's not all that big of a deal to me because it won't affect the draft. But just because it happens, that doesn't mean it's okay.


Don't forget Lebron had 1 foot in the NBA his HS senior year. He was a 99% lock for the draft. Reggie750K, according to the timeline, was in the middle of spring semester his sophmore year when the house was given.

Nothing is going to come of this professionally for Bu$h. But if found guilty, it voids USCs entire 2005 season. More importantly, the Heisman Reggie750K won would be stricken from the record books and perhaps given to the runner up and rightfull owner... Vince Young.

[Baqui99]

Don't forget Lebron had 1 foot in the NBA his HS senior year. He was a 99% lock for the draft. Reggie750K, according to the timeline, was in the middle of spring semester his sophmore year when the house was given.

Nothing is going to come of this professionally for Bu$h. But if found guilty, it voids USCs entire 2005 season. More importantly, the Heisman Reggie750K won would be stricken from the record books and perhaps given to the runner up and rightfull owner... Vince Young.

You're exactly right. This is no different than Eric Dickerson accepting large cash payments from SMU.

[bigtexxx]

The only possible explanation of this episode is if some bank was willing to lend the family the money for the house based on Reggie's future earning potential serving as collateral. However, the fact that the family moved out of the house after this story came to light is pretty damning evidence to say the least. Another sad tale in the sham that is "student-athletics" today.

[Rocket River]

non issue .. . for everyone except for USC and their fans

It is nothing that is not wide spread IMO

Rocket River

[Major]

This doesn't really raise many questions if the Texans are primarily drafting him based on what they believe his impact will be on the field.

Where it might raise some yellow flags is if they are drafting him partially to be the "face of the franchise" (which I think is overrated, but could affect the business decision). This incident raises two questions:

(1) Bush's judgement in his personal life. Even if you accept that most athletes do stuff life this, they are at least smart enough to do it behind the scenes. Getting a $750,000 house in middle of USC's season puts their entire season and accomplishments in jeopardy. Imagine if they won the national title this year and it was stripped due to ineligibility. It makes me question his common sense a bit.

(2) It makes you wonder about his priorities a bit. He knew he and his family were going to be rich in a year, but still accepted these improper benefits (assuming the story is true), risking USC's credibility and possible sanctions and stuff on his school.

That said, I imagine this stuff is secondary to on-field performance. I think trading down for Mario Williams (if possible) is still the best way to go, but if they think Bush is the guy that takes the franchise the furthest in wins/losses over the next 5-10 years, then he's the guy to draft.

[gr8-1]

how nice of a house does 750k even buy you in california?


Irrelevant. That's a ****load of money. That's the only relevant part.

[Icehouse]

I don't think this is a big deal (as far as someone picking him). However, if he really did take a crib for little to nothing, then that's as improper as it gets. LeBron got in trouble from taking some jerseys, yet it's ok for someone to take a crib? :confused:

[codell]

How could you buy a 3000 sq ft brand new house in southern cal for 750k in 2005?

yeah something doesn't seem right there ......I've seen/heard of 1,400 sqft patio homes going for $600-$650 Gs in that area.

[wesnesked]

Irrelevant. That's a ****load of money. That's the only relevant part.

From what it sounds like, its not like this guy bought them the house. Sounds like its his house and he let them live in it. Pretty much just leaseing the house for them for free. Really not as big of a deal as you're saying. I could be wrong though.

[underoverup]

From what it sounds like, its not like this guy bought them the house. Sounds like its his house and he let them live in it. Pretty much just leaseing the house for them for free. Really not as big of a deal as you're saying. I could be wrong though.

in california the lease in a house like that would be what like $3000- 4000 per month or more. thats lots of money.............. :eek:

[Icehouse]

From what it sounds like, its not like this guy bought them the house. Sounds like its his house and he let them live in it. Pretty much just leaseing the house for them for free. Really not as big of a deal as you're saying. I could be wrong though.

I think you are wrong. Letting someone live in a house for free is an improper benefit. You aren't giving them money directly, but you are giving them money via the benefit of staying for free, or little to nothing.

Again, if someone can get in trouble for taking some jerseys, then I don't see how it's ok for someone to take a house. I don't know the NCAA rulebook but my common sense vibe just says a house is worse than a jersey.

[Baqui99]

From what it sounds like, its not like this guy bought them the house. Sounds like its his house and he let them live in it. Pretty much just leaseing the house for them for free. Really not as big of a deal as you're saying. I could be wrong though.

Improper benefits from boosters, agents, or other outside sources are a blatant violation of NCAA rules. If Bush is found guilty he will be stripped of his Heisman as he would not have been eligible last season. Meanwhile, USC would be stripped of all their wins, just like what happened to Michigan's Fab Four Team.

[Rocket Fan]

Irrelevant. That's a ****load of money. That's the only relevant part.

I wasn't trying to say that the size of the house justified it.

I was asking why would you sacrifice going through all of this... when a 750k house in California probably isn't even that wonderful... seems like people would just hold off a couple months and they can buy a lot better house than that as rich as he will be..

If you read my first post, I find this to be unacceptable.. and I am against any form of cheating in college athletics... I've been critical of college athletics at UT in the past.. and I will continue to be critical of any players known to be breaking NCAA rules (including Bush if this is true)

[Rocket Fan]

I should say I've been critical of UT for other things within their athletic program..

I don't know of any recent cases where they've had an incident such as this...

Even if a lot of people do this, I still think it is bad.

[rrj_gamz]

I heard that this morning...It would be silly to think this kind of stuff doesn't go on, but it still is a violation...Does it matter if Reggie new, probably, but no team is going to take that against him as he can say it was his family that did this and not him...Hard to believe, but that will be the line...

[Castor27]

This will have very little if any impact on Reggie Bush in the draft. It probably will have an effect on USC but unless they find proof that someone at USC actually brokered the deal and not a guy that wanted to start a business with a casino background. My best guess is that unless someone at USC was involved then the only thing to come of it will be that Bush will be declared ineligible, and the records of last season will be adjusted accordingly. I'm not sure of the Heisman recall. Is it an official NCAA award or from a seperate entity like the AP or some other org? If it isn't directly from the NCAA then the orginization in charge of awarding it would have to take it back. I'm not saying the situation is not a big deal. anytime you have something like this in "Amateur" Athletics it's a problem. But this would have been a much bigger deal if it had been revealed in during the season.

[SamFisher]

This will have very little if any impact on Reggie Bush in the draft.

YOu're probably right.

On the other hand, I bet if Vince Young was the one with the big-agent house and his family living in it - there would immediately be rumors, unnammed scouts, and the like murmuring via profootball talk and ESPN and other sites about his "poor judgment" "bad decisionmaking", not to mention the howls of protest that would erupt on this BBS.

[pgabriel]

YOu're probably right.

On the other hand, I bet if Vince Young was the one with the big-agent house and his family living in it - there would immediately be rumors, unnammed scouts, and the like murmuring via profootball talk and ESPN and other sites about his "poor judgment" "bad decisionmaking", not to mention the howls of protest that would erupt on this BBS.


could you imagine what a certain ut hater on this board would have said. embarrassment, criminal, thug, etc.

[Castor27]

YOu're probably right.

On the other hand, I bet if Vince Young was the one with the big-agent house and his family living in it - there would immediately be rumors, unnammed scouts, and the like murmuring via profootball talk and ESPN and other sites about his "poor judgment" "bad decisionmaking", not to mention the howls of protest that would erupt on this BBS.
I fashion myself to be an unbiased observer. I don't love or hate UT. And I also, have no love or hate for USC. Saying this I would agree with you 100% about this board and what VY haters would say had it been him. But from my standpoint both sides do the same thing. It only took 3 posts in this thread before one of the VYOF jumped in to pile on. My point is it goes both ways(and has from the start). Personally, from a moderator standpoint, I'm really looking forward to Saturday. At that point I can start locking, deleting, moving threads about anyone the Texans don't draft :cool: .

[Jeff]

I fashion myself to be an unbiased observer. I don't love or hate UT. And I also, have no love or hate for USC. Saying this I would agree with you 100% about this board and what VY haters would say had it been him. But from my standpoint both sides do the same thing. It only took 3 posts in this thread before one of the VYOF jumped in to pile on. My point is it goes both ways(and has from the start). Personally, from a moderator standpoint, I'm really looking forward to Saturday. At that point I can start locking, deleting, moving threads about anyone the Texans don't draft :cool: .

Good post. I think that there are a lot of people who, unfairly, hammer VY to death, but the same is true for Bush at times as well. I'll be glad when the draft is over so we can stop arguing about who we should draft.

[rimrocker]

Good post. I think that there are a lot of people who, unfairly, hammer VY to death, but the same is true for Bush at times as well. I'll be glad when the draft is over so we can stop arguing about who we should draft.

Then folks can move on to who should have been drafted.

[jopatmc]

I'm not a Bush hater. I think he's going to be great. I'm not a VYOF. I think he will take a year to develop.

I simply believe that at the end of their careers, VY will have played longer and produced more wins and championships than RB will produce. I think that VY will become the premier player out of this draft with Bush being the 2nd best player out of this draft and probably one of the top 2 or 3 running back in the league over the next 10 years. There is no question in my mind that Bush is going to be terrific. Vince is going to be more than awesome.

[Baqui99]

Here's a picture of the ill-begotten Bush home:

http://www.miami.com/images/miami/miamiherald/14413/207744267949.jpg

[gucci888]

ESPN just reported that Heisman committee will do an investigation on their own.

[Icehouse]

Here's a picture of the ill-begotten Bush home:

http://www.miami.com/images/miami/miamiherald/14413/207744267949.jpg

If that's really the house, it's a lot better than an apartment.

[Harrisment]

Bush attorney: Reggie had no knowledge of house deal

USC asks Pac-10 to eye Bush family, house report
ESPN.com news services

LOS ANGELES -- The Pac-10 said Sunday it will investigate the reported connection between a home where Reggie Bush's family lived and a man who sought to market the Southern California star tailback.

The Web site reported that the family moved out of the house this weekend after questions over its ownership arose. Reporters from several news organizations visited the house on Thursday.

On Monday, David Cornwell, the attorney who represents Reggie Bush's family, told ESPN's Joe Schad that Reggie Bush had no knowledge of the "lease" agreement between his parents and San Diego businessman Michael Michaels, who owned the home the Bush family lived in.

"At this point, I'm not going to get into the particulars of the transactions between the family and Mr. Michaels," Cornwell said. "It is inapppropriate to presume that the Griffins did anything wrong."

Bush, the 2005 Heisman Trophy winner, chose to turn pro after his junior season with USC. He is expected to be the No. 1 pick in Saturday's NFL draft.

"Rather than jumping to conclusions, we need to determine the facts before commenting on this report,'' USC athletic director Mike Garrett said in a statement on Sunday. "We have asked the Pac-10 to look into this.''

Pac-10 spokesman Jim Muldoon confirmed to The Associated Press that an investigation will be held at the school's request, but had no further details.

Cornwell said Bush's parents will "cooperate fully" with any inquiry from the Pac-10 or NCAA. Cornwell also suggested there is a logical explanation for the arrangement.

Members of Bush's camp are also expected to argue that the NCAA rules legislating "extra benefits" are not applicable in this case, because Michaels was not involved in the marketing of Bush.

At issue is the San Diego-area home's connection with Michaels, who reportedly attempted to steer Bush toward signing with San Diego agent David Caravantes, and sought to handle Bush's marketing with a new firm he had founded.

"They were trying to get me in front of [Bush] during the interview process, which I was never a part of," Caravantes said in an interview published in the San Diego Union-Tribune. "They didn't try to recruit him for me. They thought it would be a good idea to have everything in San Diego. I think their concept was that they were going to deal with marketing, and they [needed] an agent ...

"If things worked out, we were going to try to put something together [to become business partners]. But everything was in waiting to see if they landed [Bush] to do the marketing. Nothing came of it."

State records showed construction was completed on the home in early 2005 and Michaels purchased it for $757,500 in late March, Yahoo reported.

Neighbors told Yahoo that Bush's mother Denise Griffin, stepfather LaMar Griffin and brother Jovan Griffin moved into the home shortly after that.

NCAA rules prohibit student-athletes and their families from receiving extra benefits from agents or their representatives. It can be a violation even if Bush had no knowledge of the transaction.

The Union-Tribune said it is unclear what rent Bush's mother and stepfather paid during their time in the house. If it is less than market value, the NCAA could consider that a violation, the newspaper said.

Bush eventually signed with a different agent and marketing firm.

"This time of year, falsely or unfalsely, this is the stuff that comes up," Mike Ornstein, one of Bush's current representatives, told the Union-Tribune. "It's a bunch of BS."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2419079

[SamFisher]

I fashion myself to be an unbiased observer. I don't love or hate UT. And I also, have no love or hate for USC. Saying this I would agree with you 100% about this board and what VY haters would say had it been him. But from my standpoint both sides do the same thing. It only took 3 posts in this thread before one of the VYOF jumped in to pile on. My point is it goes both ways(and has from the start). Personally, from a moderator standpoint, I'm really looking forward to Saturday. At that point I can start locking, deleting, moving threads about anyone the Texans don't draft :cool: .

True enough. My larger point is that certain players (especially if they're quarterbacks, and especially if they are Vince Young) are magnets for criticism for whatever reason, whereas a guy like Bush would barely be affected.

My primary focus wasn't so much about the way ClutchFans the BBS would react, but how CBS Sportsline, ESPN.com, and all the assorted draft-hype-whatever websites & parasites would probably attach themselves to the story and start to create some "rumors" about Young's judgment, implying that he'll make the wrong read on a pass play because of this, but nobody would say that Bush would blow a route or assignment.

[raw10628]

Bush is on ESPN right now talking about the issue.

[Harrisment]

Bush is on ESPN right now talking about the issue.


recap?

[SamFisher]

recap?

He just stood there, scowled, and said "Another victory handed to the jihadists", then walked away.

[Harrisment]

He just stood there, scowled, and said "Another victory handed to the jihadists", then walked away.

Damnit I knew it!

[gucci888]

recap?

Basically said they have done nothing wrong and at the end of the day, people will know they have done nothing wrong.

When asked about who made the payments on the house, Bush laughed and said he doesn't want to get into any details (which I found strange). Either your family made the payments or they didn't. When asked about his relationship with w/ Micheal Micheals, he said he doesn't want to get into any details.

They asked why they moved out the day after the story broke, he said they've been looking at houses for a couple months and they found one.

Basically, you heard everything his agent/rep wanted him to say. There were no definite answers nor should he have been forced to give any.

[VooDooPope]

So his family went from an appartment to a $750,000 house and he didn't know who was making the house notes?

Depending on downpayment etc, on a home in that price range you are talking about a $7,000 house note monthly.

[pgabriel]

this actually solidifies the pick because no one else in the draft was worth a house in college.

[Blatz]

Some guy on 790am, the Dan Patric show, said the person (I didn't catch the name) in charge of the Heisman has been receiving a whole bunch of emails from Texas demanding they hand the Heisman over to Vince.

[rrj_gamz]

ESPN just reported that Heisman committee will do an investigation on their own.

This comes from the ESPN Report...

Bush Apt. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2419079)

The official Heisman ballot includes this wording: "In order that there will be no misunderstanding regarding the eligibility of a candidate, the recepient of the award MUST be a bonafide student of an accredited university. The recepient must be in compliance with the bylaws defining an NCAA student."

It'll be interesting how this story is sustained in the draft...Funny how ESPN doesn't have it on the main page, but the college page...Hell, The Houston Chronicle website doesn't have it...If it was VY, it would be all over the place...

[Castor27]

Some guy on 790am, the Dan Patric show, said the person (I didn't catch the name) in charge of the Heisman has been receiving a whole bunch of emails from Texas demanding they hand the Heisman over to Vince.

Probably more than half of those email came from people that post on this board ;)

[Blatz]

This comes from the ESPN Report...

Bush Apt. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2419079)

...Funny how ESPN doesn't have it on the main page, but the college page...Hell, The Houston Chronicle website doesn't have it...If it was VY, it would be all over the place...

Yeah and everyone would be asking what happened to innocent until proven guilty.

:)

[pgabriel]

Yeah and everyone would be asking what happened to innocent until proven guilty.

:)


that went out with verifying wonderlic scores.

everyone says vy has gotten equal treatment but in the national media no one has been scrutinized like vy. from the wonderlic, to his choosing of an agent.

matt lienart was on espn yesterday morning still saying he thinks usc was the better team. if vy said something like that he would get drilled. it was lienart who had the pictures surface after the heisman trophy ceremony. no one made a big deal, not like about vince's shortcomings.

[MadMax]

that went out with verifying wonderlic scores.

everyone says vy has gotten equal treatment but in the national media no one has been scrutinized like vy. from the wonderlic, to his choosing of an agent.

matt lienart was on espn yesterday morning still saying he thinks usc was the better team. if vy said something like that he would get drilled. it was lienart who had the pictures surface after the heisman trophy ceremony. no one made a big deal, not like about vince's shortcomings.

leinart's an ass. i hope he ends up with the cowboys so i can continue hating on him.

[Mr. Clutch]

that went out with verifying wonderlic scores.

everyone says vy has gotten equal treatment but in the national media no one has been scrutinized like vy. from the wonderlic, to his choosing of an agent.

matt lienart was on espn yesterday morning still saying he thinks usc was the better team. if vy said something like that he would get drilled. it was lienart who had the pictures surface after the heisman trophy ceremony. no one made a big deal, not like about vince's shortcomings.

You're saying this in a thread about scrutinzing Reggie Bush's Family Home. Look, they all get scrutinized. If Bush got a 6 or picked a bad agent he would have been raked over the coals as well. Why do you think your guys (Stevie, Vince) are always the victims?

[Buck Turgidson]

leinart's an ass. i hope he ends up with the cowboys so i can continue hating on him.
Titans...then we get to watch the Texans kick his ass with regularity.

[SamFisher]

If Bush got a 6 or picked a bad agent he would have been raked over the coals as well. s?

No.

Not true.

Running backs don't get the same degree of scrutiny that quarterbacks do.

[Harrisment]

There's a video clip on the front page of espn.com, with Reggie talking about this issue. He sounds pretty confident that he hasn't done anything wrong here, and said he is 100% confident this will not have an impact on his eligibility while he was at USC.

[Desert Scar]

No.

Not true.

Running backs don't get the same degree of scrutiny that quarterbacks do.

This is correct. Bush has largely not the degree of dissection of his game or atttidue of say Young or Leinart.

Same has happened with 2nd tier guys. Few people spend much time about flaws with Deangelo Williams, but flaws and concerns about Cutler are talked about all the time.

Nature of the positions and the fact QB decision making is layed out there for all to see (and 2nd guess).

[Mr. Clutch]

No.

Not true.

Running backs don't get the same degree of scrutiny that quarterbacks do.

But Pgab was saying Leinart doesn't get the same scrutiny either. My point is VY is not getting victimized here. It's part of the draft process.

[SamFisher]

But Pgab was saying Leinart doesn't get the same scrutiny either. My point is VY is not getting victimized here. It's part of the draft process.

Leinart did get some negative press when he changed agents from Steinberg to CAA with the implication that he was too "hollywood" for the NFL (unwarranted, IMO) - though not nearly as much as Young did, whose transgression was to pick an agent who was a family friend rather than a jerry maguire type - wow what a bastard. A google or nexis search would validate this, I believe.

As for Bush, when was the last time you heard his (or any RB prospects) Wonderlick score? Never. At least when Young's came out, Cutler & Leinarts were magically leaked along with it, for informational purposes, I can only assume.

Nor did you hear people saying he's too slow, which is what the ESPN headline was after Vince's pro day. I mean, for god's sake. Vince Young is too slow to play in the NFL? Even the resident Young bashers like IC2000 knew that that line was simply too much.

[gucci888]

There's a video clip on the front page of espn.com, with Reggie talking about this issue. He sounds pretty confident that he hasn't done anything wrong here, and said he is 100% confident this will not have an impact on his eligibility while he was at USC.

Yeah he does sound pretty confident, but so did Clinton when he said the infamous "I did not have sexual relations..." And he maybe telling the absolute truth.

The only question mark I have is that he didn't answer who was making the payments. It's a pretty simple answer, either the family was paying for it or someone else was paying for it.

[The Cat]

You're saying this in a thread about scrutinzing Reggie Bush's Family Home. Look, they all get scrutinized. If Bush got a 6 or picked a bad agent he would have been raked over the coals as well. Why do you think your guys (Stevie, Vince) are always the victims?

Of course, Vince didn't score a legitimate 6, and it's debatable as to whether his agent is bad. That didn't stop the media from running with those things, though. I don't understand why, but VY is a victim here, because we still haven't seen one reputable source report that the 6 was accurate... yet the talk continued for weeks. That's called bias.

[pgabriel]

You're saying this in a thread about scrutinzing Reggie Bush's Family Home. Look, they all get scrutinized. If Bush got a 6 or picked a bad agent he would have been raked over the coals as well. Why do you think your guys (Stevie, Vince) are always the victims?


I've heard several analysts say that they've never seen a guy scrutinized like vince young. you would have a hard time saying anyone in this draft is. look at cutler for instance. that guy has shot up the board based on workouts and the combine. everything you've heard is positive. not one person out of a vanderbuilt fan could tell me anything about how this guy actually played during the regular season.

what are the questions about cutler, what are they about lienart? yeah bush is a running back so its a different animal.

[pgabriel]

and don't put words in my mouth, I never said anyone was a "victim" of anything.

[Oski2005]

I thought I heard on the radio that they were "renting the house" and that it would be about a $2500 a month. So if the family can prove they paid that, they can skirt by this. I guess I need to do some more reading up on this, I've been kind of avoiding it.

[Mr. Clutch]

I've heard several analysts say that they've never seen a guy scrutinized like vince young. you would have a hard time saying anyone in this draft is. look at cutler for instance. that guy has shot up the board based on workouts and the combine. everything you've heard is positive. not one person out of a vanderbuilt fan could tell me anything about how this guy actually played during the regular season.

what are the questions about cutler, what are they about lienart? yeah bush is a running back so its a different animal.

Yeah, Cutler shot up in the draft because of work outs, so what? Vince shot up to Top 7 because of his Rose Bowl performance. Anyone can get hype and improve their stock by doing well in workouts, games, etc.

I have heard plenty of times that Cutler is below Vince and Leinart. Is that not a negative? Cutler got some hype early but it's like he's disappeared recently. That's pretty negative! Leinart's negatives I've heard- weak arm, injury prone, slow as crap, benefited form a talented team. Comparing the criticism Vince has gotten to other players, I don't believe he is a victim of any unfair scrutiny.

[Groogrux]

Vince shot up to Top 7 because of his Rose Bowl performance.

Um, no. He may have entered the draft because of his Rose Bowl game, but if you think he wouldn't be a potential top 7 picked based on his entire year last year, then I think you're sorely mistaken.

[pgabriel]

Yeah, Cutler shot up in the draft because of work outs, so what? Vince shot up to Top 7 because of his Rose Bowl performance. Anyone can get hype and improve their stock by doing well in workouts, games, etc.

I have heard plenty of times that Cutler is below Vince and Leinart. Is that not a negative? Cutler got some hype early but it's like he's disappeared recently. That's pretty negative! Leinart's negatives I've heard- weak arm, injury prone, slow as crap, benefited form a talented team. Comparing the criticism Vince has gotten to other players, I don't believe he is a victim of any unfair scrutiny.


there's that word "victim" again.

anyway you're right, shooting up because of workouts is the same as shooting up in the Rose Bowl against the supposedly greatest team of all-time. never mind that vince came in second in the heisman ballot. you're exactly right. thanks for clearing that up

[SamFisher]

Comparing the criticism Vince has gotten to other players, I don't believe he is a victim of any unfair scrutiny.
If you honestly think that Cutler's hype --who was from a guy on a losing team that nobody had heard of to being mentioned as the best QB on the draft) and Young's buzz --who was anointed as superman on Jan 3, and who has since been to allegations that he's too slow, stupid, a lot like Akili Smith, blah blah blah, and who has managed to appear in the "Sliders/Losers" column of pretty much every major publication -- have suffred a similar degree of scrutiny despite not a single snap having occured since then, you're honestly on another planet.

Same same with Leinart. Everybody knows the negative stories about Vince's agent. Leinart's agent escapades have gotten a microscopic fraction of those (admittedly ridiculous) stories in the press

[pgabriel]

lets just compare vy hype to alex smith hype. now alex smith is clearly smarter than most college football players including vy, I will concede that.

but alex smith shot up the board running the same system, winning in a weaker conference. now I'm hearing draft people say it may already be time for frisco to cut their losses. they guy has a weak arm and small hands and has had trouble adapting. but the guy pretty much became the number one pick by default, when lienart decided to stay (a bad decision btw) and no one questioned was he worthy.

[Mr. Clutch]

Um, no. He may have entered the draft because of his Rose Bowl game, but if you think he wouldn't be a potential top 7 picked based on his entire year last year, then I think you're sorely mistaken.

Well it sounds like VY might not go higher than 7 right now. So it is logical to think that before his Rose Bowl appearance he was below that. Since he didn't enter until after the Rose Bowl it is har dto say.

[Mr. Clutch]

there's that word "victim" again.

anyway you're right, shooting up because of workouts is the same as shooting up in the Rose Bowl against the supposedly greatest team of all-time. never mind that vince came in second in the heisman ballot. you're exactly right. thanks for clearing that up

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

[Mr. Clutch]

If you honestly think that Cutler's hype --who was from a guy on a losing team that nobody had heard of to being mentioned as the best QB on the draft) and Young's buzz --who was anointed as superman on Jan 3, and who has since been to allegations that he's too slow, stupid, a lot like Akili Smith, blah blah blah, and who has managed to appear in the "Sliders/Losers" column of pretty much every major publication -- have suffred a similar degree of scrutiny despite not a single snap having occured since then, you're honestly on another planet.

Same same with Leinart. Everybody knows the negative stories about Vince's agent. Leinart's agent escapades have gotten a microscopic fraction of those (admittedly ridiculous) stories in the press

Vince has gotten more press period. More negative as well as more positive. You don't have guys on ESPN writing articles that the Texans will regret not taking Cutler and you don't hear that Cutler is "Jordanesque." You also don't have Chronicle writers saying the Texans will need Mario Williams to stop Cutler when he is playing on the Titans.

IMO, this is just part of the process. Bush has gotten criticized as well, for being small, not getting enough touches, not weighing enough, and now the family house thing. To me I don't see one player getting unfairly targetted.

Actually yesterday on ESPN they brought up that Leinart got drunk at a party and apparently groped a girl and got slapped. That's going to happen when you are a top 10 pick. LenDale White got injured and got a barrage of criticism for being out of shape and slow, despite his great Rose Bowl appearance.

[SamFisher]

Vince has gotten more press period. More negative as well as more positive. You don't have guys on ESPN writing articles that the Texans will regret not taking Cutler and you don't hear that Cutler is
"Jordanesque."

Nor did Cutler do anything to merit it, him having not had a transcendant performances in one of the 2-3 greatest games of all time, capping off one of the individual greatest seasons of all time. Cutler put on a pair of shorts, provided some quotes, and had what was reportedly a good week of practice at the Senior Bowl.


You also don't have Chronicle writers saying the Texans will need Mario Williams to stop Cutler when he is playing on the Titans.

Because Cutler isn't from houston, naturally chronicle writers might not say this.


IMO, this is just part of the process. Bush has gotten criticized as well, for being small, not getting enough touches, not weighing enough, and now the family house thing. To me I don't see one player getting unfairly targetted.

Maybe by people on this board, but overall? Didn't you just the other day cite to us how Bush is the number 1 prospect (on all the pre-draft hype boards) and always has been and always will be? When was the last time you saw Bush criticized for not working out at the NFL Combine?


Actually yesterday on ESPN they brought up that Leinart got drunk at a party and apparently groped a girl and got slapped. That's going to happen when you are a top 10 pick. LenDale White got injured and got a barrage of criticism for being out of shape and slow, despite his great Rose Bowl appearance.

White actually WAS out of shape and slow, due to his injury. This whole thing would be a different story if Vince were out of shape, injured, and throwing wounded ducks downfiled, which is not the case. What did Vince do between January and now to show that he was slow, couldn't read defenses, etc? And as to Leinart, where's the people claiming that he's sliding in the draft board due to this latest grope/slap? I hadn't even heard of it till today.

[VesceySux]

Well it sounds like VY might not go higher than 7 right now. So it is logical to think that before his Rose Bowl appearance he was below that. Since he didn't enter until after the Rose Bowl it is har dto say.

Using where someone is drafted in the first 10 picks to denote how good they are overall is asinine. Not every team uses a "BPA" strategy to draft, y'know.

[Castor27]

Umm There is a thread for all the arguing on the past page or so, and it isn't titled "[YAHOO] Reggie Bush Family Home - NCAA Violations". Move on or move out.

[bigben998]

Do not put all your cards on the media, they make money by making big issues out of little situations, If you dont care, you dont watch, and if you dont watch, they dont make money, so they make you care by blowing it way out of proportion. I just saw an interview with him and apparently they moved out because they had found another house, which they had been looking for, you cant blame him because some sleezy agent(the worst freaking aspect of professional sports) was connected with the house and some more sleezy people. They are not dumb, i bet you this Micheal Micheals guy (classic sleezy agent name by the way) thought he was gonna get a peice of Reggie and now he realizes he isnt and he is upset, so i bet thats where this all stems from anyway. I'm sure this investigation will provide that the house was paid for in a normal fasion and no real wrongdoing occured, and if not that is just unfortunate cause they should be smarter than that, im sure they know everyone is gunning to bring them down, if your number 1 everyone wants you to fail, the most resilient athletes are the ones that work through that and become great dispite it.

[DaDakota]

Bush did not know about the house deal (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2419079)

HAHAHAHAHAH

Sure, Reggie, caught with his hands in the cookie jar.

Vince Young could legitimatly end up with the Heisman trophy, if this is as bad as it sounds.

DD

[DaDakota]

I thought I heard on the radio that they were "renting the house" and that it would be about a $2500 a month. So if the family can prove they paid that, they can skirt by this. I guess I need to do some more reading up on this, I've been kind of avoiding it.

Maybe, unless other houses in the price range went for much higher values. If they are getting a freebie, or a considerable discount he is still in deep doo doo.

DD

[rockbox]

Maybe I'm the only one but I don't care what Bush's family got. I have a bigger problem with the NCAA basically making billions on free labor under guise of a free education even when they don't give the athletes the time actually go to class and study. Screw the NCAA.

[Rocket Fan]

. not one person out of a vanderbuilt fan could tell me anything about how this guy actually played during the regular season.

.

he had hype going INTO the senior bowl.. and that was based on his season

[Raven Lunatic]

This doesn't really raise many questions if the Texans are primarily drafting him based on what they believe his impact will be on the field.

Where it might raise some yellow flags is if they are drafting him partially to be the "face of the franchise" (which I think is overrated, but could affect the business decision). This incident raises two questions:


Actually, I could see the Texans using this to their advantage. While I seriously doubt they care all that much about this money stuff while Bush was in college, if they play the "face of the franchise" card during negotiations they could perhaps convince Reggie/agent that he has lost some value in their eyes...dropping his price tag a bit. But other than that, I doubt this effects the Texans much at all.

[gucci888]

Actually, I could see the Texans using this to their advantage. While I seriously doubt they care all that much about this money stuff while Bush was in college, if they play the "face of the franchise" card during negotiations they could perhaps convince Reggie/agent that he has lost some value in their eyes...dropping his price tag a bit. But other than that, I doubt this effects the Texans much at all.

I was thinking the same thing. IF the Texans really wanted to use this to their advantage, they should have "intensified" talks with Mario Williams just to keep Reggie at the end of his seat.

[SamFisher]

he had hype going INTO the senior bowl.. and that was based on his season

Hype as a first day draft choice, not as the top QB overall as people were saying at one point, though that talk seems to have subsided considerably from previous months.

[rrj_gamz]

I saw the Bush interview on the Draft Special and you know, it doesn't matter for his draft status, but it does to USC/Pac-10 and the Heisman...He side stepped it which is what he is suppose to do, but wasn't very convincing...

He claimed he didn't know, but c'mon...

Bush: Hey mom, how's it going

Bush Family: Hey, guess what, we're moving to San Diego

Bush: Really...How...er, nevermind..

Bush Family: We got a great deal, see you on Christmas Break...

For all the VY haters, I'm sure someone is trying to dig up stuff in case Reggie loses the Heisman...

[gucci888]

I thought I heard on the radio that they were "renting the house" and that it would be about a $2500 a month. So if the family can prove they paid that, they can skirt by this. I guess I need to do some more reading up on this, I've been kind of avoiding it.

The guy who broke the story said he hasn't found any evidence of payments, but not sure how hard he looked or if he even has the resources to find it.

But he also mentioned that even if there were payments, you have to look at the amount of rent they paid. I don't know what the going rate for a 2,000sq house in San Diego costs.

But either way, I find it weird that they have their name ingraved into the concrete if they were only renting the house. Hell, some people hesitate to paint a wall.

But innocent until proven guilty. And it doesn't affect the draft process, just USC.

[ron413]

But either way, I find it weird that they have their name ingraved into the concrete if they were only renting the house. Hell, some people hesitate to paint a wall.

But innocent until proven guilty. And it doesn't affect the draft process, just USC.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14421370.htm

http://www.miami.com/images/miami/miamiherald/14413/207744282362.jpg

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/slideshow.htm?content_id=14413479&pub_name=miamiherald&language=en&palette_name=miamiherald&site_name=miami&start=2&component_title=&component_desc=

[percicles]

The plot thickens....

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

POSTED 2:53 p.m. EDT, April 25, 2006

BUSH HAD AGREEMENT WITH NEW ERA?

In what could be the next big step toward a finding that USC tailback Reggie Bush was ineligible for all or part of the 2005 football season and that USC knew or should have known about Bush's ineligibility, Liz Mullen of the SportsBusiness Journal reports that sworn testimony from two hearings regarding a parole violation indicates that New Era Sports & Entertainment had an agreement of some sort with Bush.

Michael Michaels and Lloyd Lake founded New Era in 2005. Earlier this year, Lake faced the revocation of his parole from federal prison. At one of the hearings, Lake's lawyer, Marc Carlos, testified that "Mr. Bush — or through his associates — had made some type of agreement with Mr. Lake's group."

Carlos also testified that, after Bush signed with another group, there was a dispute over "representations made by Bush and his family to Mr. Lake's group" and that "they were going to discuss potential litigation — or a settlement involving Mr. Bush's involvement with that agency."

David Caravantes, an NFLPA-certified agent who reportedly was being lined up by New Era to handle the negotiation of Bush's football contract, testified as well. Caravantes confirmed his arrangement with New Era: "Lloyd [Lake] and I had got together in October [2005] to start a new sports management company with Sycuan. . . . Since October, Lloyd was a viable part of the company, helping recruit players, and in the process of merging this New Era Sports with Sycuan. In the process of this happening, you know, it obviously hurt the company because he had some relationships with certain players who ended up not signing."

Lake gave the following testimony: "I had a sports agency that we had formed, and we had a guy in, Winston Justice, from USC. . . . Reggie Bush came into town. And at that time he was going to go out with us."

The initial significance of this testimony is that it removes any credible doubt that, at some time after Bush's family moved into the house owned Michaels but before the completion of the 2005 football, Michaels was an "agent" within the meaning of the relevant NCAA bylaws. Thus, if it ultimately is shown that Bush's family paid anything less than fair market rent after Michaels became an "agent," then Reggie was necessarily ineligible under the NCAA rules for each subsequent game.

More importantly, the reference to "potential litigation" suggest that New Era had (or at least thought it had) some type of binding commitment with Bush. If such an agreement was reached prior to the completion of the 2005 football season, Bush was ineligible regardless of whether his mother and stepfather were paying fair value for the house owned by Michaels.

Also intriguing is Caravantes' reference not to Michael Michaels, but to his tribe -- Sycuan. The Sycuan tribe previously has denied involvement in Michaels' sports venture. The testimony from Caravantes potentially muddies the water.

Folks, this thing has gotten a lot uglier over the past 48 hours, and we've got a feeling that it will get uglier long before it gets un-ugly. As more evidence of the ties between Bush and New Era is revealed, it will be harder and harder for USC to claim that it didn't know -- and shouldn't have known -- that Bush had forfeited his eligibility either by striking a deal with New Era or through the receipt of benefits from New Era by his family.

[Desert Scar]

If true it is ugly for Bush's family, USC, and hopefully the guy who should have won the Heisman anyway ends up with it.

But I don't see how any of this affects the Texans' decision. Whether Bush violated amatuer status has little to do with whether he is the right player for them to draft.

[VooDooPope]

But I don't see how any of this affects the Texans' decision. Whether Bush violated amatuer status has little to do with whether he is the right player for them to draft.


[If these reports are true] Just what we need. A player who would intentionally violate the rules with total disregard to the consequences of his actions and how they will affect his team. [/end]

[SwoLy-D]

[If these reports are true] Just what we need. A player who would intentionally violate the rules with total disregard to the consequences of his actions and how they will affect his team. [/end]You're right on the money.

Like I've said before, let's get together after the draft and no matter who the Texans pick, go to a cabaret for some [Vince last name] [Reggie last name] and we'll be all happy.

[rrj_gamz]

If true it is ugly for Bush's family, USC, and hopefully the guy who should have won the Heisman anyway ends up with it.

But I don't see how any of this affects the Texans' decision. Whether Bush violated amatuer status has little to do with whether he is the right player for them to draft.


I think it won' hurt his draft status, but it does cast doubt on him as a person...You keep hearing he's a great character guy, but then you here this...

USC and the Pac-10 will suffer a little, but in time, everyone forgets...

[Desert Scar]

Maybe I'm the only one but I don't care what Bush's family got. I have a bigger problem with the NCAA basically making billions on free labor under guise of a free education even when they don't give the athletes the time actually go to class and study. Screw the NCAA.

I agree with this, I wouldn't blame his family or Bush. The system (NCAA, draft rules) IMO sets the stage to exploit the elite college athlete in a money sport (mens football and basketball). And it still would impact my decision as to whether drafting Bush. If Bush is who they want based on his potential for being a pro football player (my preference is to trade, but whatever), that is who they should go with. Whether he violated an amateur/NCAA status rule unrelated to breaking the law or playing on a pro football contract is irrelevant.

But if true the amateur hardware awards should be given to their rightful owners. Young should have got the Heisman anyway for being the best college player, for those misguided about this Pasadena unequivocally cleared this up. Bush might end up the best pro prospect, or the surest pro prospect, but it was obvious the most impactfull and outstanding college football player of last year and in recent memory was the Texas quarterback. Maybe a backdoor way to clear up that injustice.

[Icehouse]

I agree with this, I wouldn't blame his family or Bush. The system (NCAA, draft rules) IMO sets the stage to exploit the elite college athlete in a money sport (mens football and basketball). And it still would impact my decision as to whether drafting Bush. If Bush is who they want based on his potential for being a pro football player (my preference is to trade, but whatever), that is who they should go with. Whether he violated an amateur/NCAA status rule unrelated to breaking the law or playing on a pro football contract is irrelevant.

But if true the amateur hardware awards should be given to their rightful owners. Young should have got the Heisman anyway for being the best college player, for those misguided about this Pasadena unequivocally cleared this up. Bush might end up the best pro prospect, or the surest pro prospect, but it was obvious the most impactfull and outstanding college football player of last year and in recent memory was the Texas quarterback. Maybe a backdoor way to clear up that injustice.

I have a problem with both. the rules suck but don't break them...you agreed to them.

[gr8-1]

If true it is ugly for Bush's family, USC, and hopefully the guy who should have won the Heisman anyway ends up with it.

But I don't see how any of this affects the Texans' decision. Whether Bush violated amatuer status has little to do with whether he is the right player for them to draft.


You a smart Longhorn.


Looks like Bush's family owes for rent after all. 54K.

Maybe I'm the only one but I don't care what Bush's family got. I have a bigger problem with the NCAA basically making billions on free labor under guise of a free education even when they don't give the athletes the time actually go to class and study. Screw the NCAA.


Are they forced into this or do they actually have a choice? While I agree that they should get some sort of stipend (legal), a free education plus room and board is nothing to sneeze at. I would've traded places with any athlete, I know my parents would have loved it.

[updawg]

this seems to just keep growing. wonder how much it is affecting the texans plans

[JeffB]

Are they forced into this or do they actually have a choice? While I agree that they should get some sort of stipend (legal), a free education plus room and board is nothing to sneeze at. I would've traded places with any athlete, I know my parents would have loved it.
Given how much time they get to benefit from that "free" education, the athletes are getting ripped off. I live a couple doors down from a college athlete (football). While he gets room and board and education, he is very much paying for it with his own labor. It is offseason and its almost like he is working a full time gig. I can't imagine what it will be like for him when the season kicks off. There are only 24 hours in a day.

Still, for most student athletes, it is a great deal and a way to get an education. Can't complain about that. What people do complain about is that the NCAA appears to be making way more money off the football and basketball kids than what these kids are getting back from the NCAA. On top of that, how many of these guys actually graduate anyway? While I the graduation rates has been improving, still male football and basketball players graduate at a clip significantly lower than the general population of students (you can browse the data at the NCAA website). So for most of these athletes, they don't even get the "free" diploma. And it isn't because they are all idiots or don't try. Despite the extra services they get, the athletic departments, in general, are more motivated to win, even if that means helping students "get by" with grades they didn't really earn. So often these guys reach the end of their college careers not having accomplished much in academics. Of course I can't talk about details (non-disclosure) but I've seen some things as a graduate student instructor that really make me question this whole "student athlete" thing.

[DaDakota]

This just doesn't bother me one bit.

The NCAA and colleges make a ton of money off these players and they are not allowed to sign endorsement deals?

How stupid is that?

Look at that kid for Colorado who signed deals as a moguls skier and could not play football, what a joke the NCAA is.

If Bush got away with it, good for him and his family, the whole system needs an overhaul.

DD

Got to support the Texans new star RB/KR

[reggietodd]

DaDakota, I emailed you our sig bet. Put it in after the draft Saturday.

[Major]

What people do complain about is that the NCAA appears to be making way more money off the football and basketball kids than what these kids are getting back from the NCAA.

I've never understood this line of reasoning. First off, for players like Bush & Young and anyone else that's drafted, they get massive free national exposure through the NCAA which results in their next job. Second, every player gets the opportunity at a free education. At some schools, that's worth over $100,000 over 4 years. That's pretty damn good "pay" for a college kid.

Beyond that, why does the NCAA need to give back the amount they make? What company does that? Exxon just made something like $30 billion last year - it's not like they gave it all back in raises and bonuses. The NCAA makes money because of their marketing and business decisions, as well as the quality of labor, and the labor is compensated in a mix of scholarships, education, and exposure, as well as all sorts of bonus services like free tutoring and such.

[SamFisher]

DaDakota, I emailed you our sig bet. Put it in after the draft Saturday.

reggietodd is known to welsh on sig bets, so I wouldn't honor it if I were you DD.

[pgabriel]

there is no way you can argue that vince young or reggie bush or matt lienart got paid their value to their learning institutions in educations that they won't even be using.

i'm not arguing that they should receive compensation, because that opens another pandora's box. but the way scouting is, the exposure really isn't an argument anymore. take the nba, all of the international players get exposure, there is no value in ncaa exposure. the only value in its exposure is the fact that you have no other place to display your skills. they have the monopoly on exposure in football.

[DaDakota]

DaDakota, I emailed you our sig bet. Put it in after the draft Saturday.

What was our bet again? I give you my sig?

Didn't I have a bet somewhere where I had to stop saying "DD" at the end of my posts for a month?


Sam,

I can't back down from my bet, I have to honor it, as you did ours.

DD

[SamFisher]

Major,

I can't back down from my bet, I have to honor it. I think HP and I had one that was disputed once, but I honor my bets.

DD
reggie todd owes me his signature from the Incredible Shrinking 6 foot episode. So if he gets yours, it should rightfully transfer to me. It's BBS common law.

[Major]

there is no way you can argue that vince young or reggie bush or matt lienart got paid their value to their learning institutions in educations that they won't even be using.


If they didn't go to school and get the exposure the NCAA provided, would they be getting a $40 million payday today? That was the benefit they got. It's basically the equivalent of an internship or apprenticeship.

[pgabriel]

If they didn't go to school and get the exposure the NCAA provided, would they be getting a $40 million payday today? That was the benefit they got. It's basically the equivalent of an internship or apprenticeship.


but its not the equivalent and I've argued this before. what the ncaa should do is make it like an internship. the athletes could be sponsored by teams in the professional leagues, they could go work out with those teams in the offseason, and they could be paid by those teams. that would be like an internship.

what the ncaa should do just like the individual schools in the universities do is allow athletes to join a team, however method, draft etc., continue to play in college and have that kid sponsored by a team. if the team feels the kid is ready, they can ask them to join any time, still allowing the kids who want to graduate to continue their education if they want. if the kid doesn't pan out then the relationship with university and pro team ends at the end of eligibility.

[Rocket Fan]

Plenty of regular students do internships for free or low pay.

They are getting coaching that increases their value and educations that they would have never gotten. You can say a UT education is only worth whatever tuition is now, but it's worth a lot more when you could have never gotten it if you weren't an athlete.

[Major]

but its not the equivalent and I've argued this before. what the ncaa should do is make it like an internship. the athletes could be sponsored by teams in the professional leagues, they could go work out with those teams in the offseason, and they could be paid by those teams. that would be like an internship.

what the ncaa should do just like the individual schools in the universities do is allow athletes to join a team, however method, draft etc., continue to play in college and have that kid sponsored by a team. if the team feels the kid is ready, they can ask them to join any time, still allowing the kids who want to graduate to continue their education if they want. if the kid doesn't pan out then the relationship with university and pro team ends at the end of eligibility.

Who does this benefit, though, except for the very top tier of football and basketball players?

It hurts the schools because it creates a massive headache to manage, and the pro team's goals are not going to mesh with the college team's goals (protecting a player from injury, for example).

It hurts the NFL because now they have to start scouting all these random high school kids, where the pool of talent is hundreds of times the size of the NCAA level.

It hurts all the non-draftee type players (the vast majority of college football players) who are now treated like 2nd tier players as the big boys get special perks through their connections with the pro team.

It takes away from the quality of college football which is, arguably, the most successful sport out there because it makes it all about the money for a portion of the kids as opposed to the team concept which it seems to embody so well (far better, for example, than basketball).

You're going through a hell of a lot of work to benefit a very small minority of kids who are going to get multi-million dollar paydays in the long run anyway.

[pgabriel]

Plenty of regular students do internships for free or low pay.

They are getting coaching that increases their value and educations that they would have never gotten. You can say a UT education is only worth whatever tuition is now, but it's worth a lot more when you could have never gotten it if you weren't an athlete.


and the coaches make millions, and so does the ncaa and the university. we could go round and round. an internship for regular students doesn't provide the value that football does to a university.

[Rocket Fan]

Tons of schools lose money overall on athletics though.. so it would make the differences between what schools are good on football even greater..

Vince's value has increased by a lot more than Mack Brown's salary while at UT

[pgabriel]

Who does this benefit, though, except for the very top tier of football and basketball players?

It hurts the schools because it creates a massive headache to manage, and the pro team's goals are not going to mesh with the college team's goals (protecting a player from injury, for example).

It hurts the NFL because now they have to start scouting all these random high school kids, where the pool of talent is hundreds of times the size of the NCAA level.

It hurts all the non-draftee type players (the vast majority of college football players) who are now treated like 2nd tier players as the big boys get special perks through their connections with the pro team.

It takes away from the quality of college football which is, arguably, the most successful sport out there because it makes it all about the money for a portion of the kids as opposed to the team concept which it seems to embody so well (far better, for example, than basketball).

You're going through a hell of a lot of work to benefit a very small minority of kids who are going to get multi-million dollar paydays in the long run anyway.


you keep making this argument about what the will make in the future. a) that is not a given, and b) it doesn't matter anyway because what they make in the future is for the service they provide to the nfl, not the ncaa. again, they could get exposure anywhere, the ncaa jusst has the monopoly on exposure, and that's the crux of the issue.

why would it take away from the quality, the whole point is for the kids to stay in school and not have a basketball situation where teams are almost forced to draft kids they know won't be ready for three years.

as far as an organizational nightmare, the ncaa is already a huge organization, with numerous rules, that are enforced by numberous investigators. they manage numerous athletes already. they have a large orgination in place already, I'm sure they handle it.

[pgabriel]

Tons of schools lose money overall on athletics though.. so it would make the differences between what schools are good on football even greater..



and those universities can't compete anyway, so that doesn't matter. and besides, that's why the teams would sponsor these kids, it actually may make it easier for a school who isn't making money on football to compete. the only kids this system would affect are kids who have a chance to make money in their sport. just like kids who major in sociology don't get the internships that kids who major in engineering do.


Vince's value has increased by a lot more than Mack Brown's salary while at UT

but mack's salary is a lot more dependent on vince than vince's is on mack's. the kids are still the product.

[Major]

you keep making this argument about what the will make in the future. a) that is not a given, and b) it doesn't matter anyway because what they make in the future is for the service they provide to the nfl, not the ncaa. again, they could get exposure anywhere, the ncaa jusst has the monopoly on exposure, and that's the crux of the issue.


But that's the nature of an internship or apprenticeship. Medical resident students don't make crap compared to what they do - but they do it because it gets them a higher future salary. That's the case everywhere. Getting an college or law or whatever education is the same thing - its time & effort you're investing to earn a higher future salary from someone else. The school gets money from you and gives you an education. The hospitals get hard work from you, and gives you experience. The same is true for college football - the college/ncaa makes money off of you, and gives you valuable experience (and exposure) for your next job. I guess I just don't see the problem here.

[Rocket Fan]

It's not like athletes are the only people who have money made off of them.

Scientists and researchers etc, invent things all the time that millions are made off of. Working for any compnay you have money made off of you.

Vince already has endorsement deals etc that are based a great deal on the popularity he has from winning a championship at UT.

[Rocket Fan]

I dont know about the Mack thing.

I think that coaches helping him with his throwing etc has increased his value by tens of millions. Mack's salary isn't tens of millions different now that he has vince than it was with major applewhite (yes it has increased some, maybe a mil a year)

[Rocket Fan]

I just don't want an NFL team controlling a college football team..

I hate the fact that many aren't real students as it is now, I can't imagine how bad it would be if you had an NFL team running the show.

[pgabriel]

It's not like athletes are the only people who have money made off of them.

Scientists and researchers etc, invent things all the time that millions are made off of. Working for any compnay you have money made off of you.

Vince already has endorsement deals etc that are based a great deal on the popularity he has from winning a championship at UT.

this a post I made three years on this subject in a thread about maruice clarrett

Fiscal year 7/01/02 to 6/30/02, the football program at OSU brought in $25,567,612. I just added football program revenue plus bowl game revenue. This is the website.

http://senate.ohio-state.edu/2003-02-13SPacket.pdf



Assuming there were 50 full scholorship players on the team, that would be $800M in student expenses, and only 3% of the total revenues of the program. And that doesn't include what they received from winning the National Championship as these numbers aren't available yet. Does 3% seem fair???

[pgabriel]

sorry, the link doesn't work anymore.

[pgabriel]

link (http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-01-04-athletics_x.htm)


COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — Ohio State's athletic program is the nation's top collegiate sports moneymaker.
Ohio State made $89.7 million from ticket sales, royalties, advertising, broadcast agreements and other sources during the 2004-05 academic year, about $50,000 more than second-place Texas, according to U.S. Department of Education statistics.

The Buckeyes' top rival, Michigan, placed third on the list at $78.4 million, followed by Florida ($77.4 million) and Wisconsin ($75.3 million).

Ohio State has the most athletes and teams among the NCAA's Division I schools.

"You always want to be the biggest and the best," said athletic director Gene Smith, in charge of a self-sufficient department that has more than 900 student-athletes in 36 sports.

Ohio State sports receive no money from the government or the university.

Ohio State didn't rank first in every category, determined by reports filed annually under the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.

Teams that don't produce revenue decreased profit at Ohio State to slightly more than $120,000. Georgia had the nation's most profitable college sports program, making $23.9 million more than it spent.

Texas was tops in football revenue with $53.2 million, better than runner-up Ohio State's $51.8 million.

The Longhorns also had the most profitable football program, making $38.7 million after expenses. Ohio State was eighth in that category with $26.1 million.

Ohio State was 10th in men's basketball revenue ($11.4 million) and eighth in profit ($7.3 million).

Its women's basketball program spent nearly $2 million more than it earned.

you guys are right, texas football made over $38MM after expenses, that's fair. I really don't think you guys understand how much money these big programs are making. I'm not even suggesting that they share this income with students. i'm suggesting they cut the freaking charade.

[Rocket Fan]

38 mil is the top teams, and most are WAY below that.

But I said OVERALL, athletic program..

a lot of schools make some money on football, but the time they pay for all the money losers don't make a profit.

Yes, there are some that do. But the vast majority of teams aren't making very much profit off of their entire athletic program as a whole.

[Rocket Fan]

especially the private schools that are having to pay 40k a year tuition for golfers, etc that don't bring in revenue. In the overall picture.. 38 mil profit by the football team is nothing for a university as far as overall income

[Rocket Fan]

Well, depending on the school, some athletes are getting up to 40k a year of expenses covered.

There are companies all over the country who pay employees 40k a year that bring in a lot more than 38 mil a year profit

[Rocket Fan]

"Teams that don't produce revenue decreased profit at Ohio State to slightly more than $120,000. Georgia had the nation's most profitable college sports program, making $23.9 million more than it spent"

So the most profitable program is making 23.9 million.

And Ohio State is making only 120k.. Basically NOTHING.

If Ohio State is only making 120k, don't you think most programs are losing money?

[SamFisher]

"Teams that don't produce revenue decreased profit at Ohio State to slightly more than $120,000. Georgia had the nation's most profitable college sports program, making $23.9 million more than it spent"

So the most profitable program is making 23.9 million.

And Ohio State is making only 120k.. Basically NOTHING.

If Ohio State is only making 120k, don't you think most programs are losing money?

Those numbers do not accurately measure the amount of value that a winning sports program brings, such as increased alumni donations, student applications, etc.

[Rocket Fan]

Depends on the school.

Studies I've read in sports econ classes showed that success in sports didn't increase overall quality of incoming applications.

The total amount of increased donations is questionable depending on where it is donated. If the money is being directly donated to the athletic department, then it isn't bringing in money to the actual university.

[Rocket Fan]

But even if they are making money, I still don't think they need to be paid

[pgabriel]

especially the private schools that are having to pay 40k a year tuition for golfers, etc that don't bring in revenue. In the overall picture.. 38 mil profit by the football team is nothing for a university as far as overall income


I already addressed this issue, its just like internships, interships for engineers pay more than internships for sociology students. the same logic should apply to sports.

why should the football players be subsidizing the golfers anyway? that's not an argument. students don't subsidize other students. and even if they do, it isn't necessary to keep golf around, especially if it isn't making money.

[Rocket Fan]

pgabriel..

Women's sports do not make money overall. You can't have the football team without at least several womens sports. It isn't as easy as just getting rid of those that lose money.

Additionally, where do you think this "money made" goes? It most cases it is staying in the athletic department further benefiting the student athletes, correct?

[Rocket Fan]

I just watched my school cut the mens soccer team and add another womens team in order to comply with title ix.

You can't have football legally, without having womens sports that mostly lose money.

[pgabriel]

pgabriel..

Women's sports do not make money overall. You can't have the football team without at least several womens sports. It isn't as easy as just getting rid of those that lose money.

Additionally, where do you think this "money made" goes? It most cases it is staying in the athletic department further benefiting the student athletes, correct?


how many times do I have to ask this question? why should football players and basketball players subsidize other athletes? I'm talking about a complete and total change in the system.

why isn't it easy to get rid of non makers, companies across america do it all the time.

this is the true nature of how unfair the system. the football team is a business, the diving team is a chance for someone to go to college based on a sport that no one gives a crap about but the football players have to subsidize the diving team? there is no reason someone should get to go to college because they were a good diver in high school.

[Rocket Fan]

pgabriel.

title ix basically makes schools have an equal amount going to mens and womens sports.

You can't legally get rid of all the womens sports that are losing money.

[pgabriel]

pgabriel.

title ix basically makes schools have an equal amount going to mens and womens sports.

You can't legally get rid of all the womens sports that are losing money.


I don't give a crap about the law. com'on, you're smarter than that, tell me your opinion. the law can be changed.

[Rocket Fan]

I think you are going to have a lot of trouble getting rid of title ix.

Personally, I like having different sports even if they don't make profits and I'm glad my school (Vanderbilt) has sports even if we aren't making huge profits.

My point is though that the majority of schools aren't making huge profits. Yes, Texas etc are.. but a great number are not.

I don't think we need to pay them, but I do think we need to educate them. If you are going to offer them a free education for being athletes, let them take the classes they need to take, give them time to study, etc.

[SamFisher]

I think you are going to have a lot of trouble getting rid of title ix.

You don't have to get rid of title IX. Just get rid of mens sports that don't make money. Soccer, track, wrestling, swimming, etc.

[Rocket Fan]

sam..

Even if you get rid of the mens sports that lose money. You are still going to have womens basketball, diving, track, tennis etc losing money

[Rocket Fan]

but I'd prefer my university have more than just football.

I don't think you have to be making profit to justify having a free education.

Anymore than a kid with a 1600 SAT that the school is spending 40k a year on to give a full ride to...

Now you can argue about whether or not playing a sport is a good reason why a kid without good grades etc should get into college, but whether or not the sport is making the profit isn't my concern in that discussion

[Rocket Fan]

I'll finish this debate later, I have a final to go take

[pgabriel]

My point is though that the majority of schools aren't making huge profits. Yes, Texas etc are.. but a great number are not.

.

schools that have good football teams make money. that's their incentive to be good, that's why they lower standards. if your argument is that these kids should be required to meet standards and be treated as normal students, well what do you think would be harder to implement, my system, or making these kids live up to regular standards. that's a fantasy. and that's the point, we're already operating under a big lie when it comes to college sports.

so why not just change the system so that these incidents won't be happening in the first place. i guarantee reggie bush made enough money for usc to pay for that house in the Rose Bowl alone.

[Desert Scar]

I've never understood this line of reasoning. First off, for players like Bush & Young and anyone else that's drafted, they get massive free national exposure through the NCAA which results in their next job. Second, every player gets the opportunity at a free education. At some schools, that's worth over $100,000 over 4 years. That's pretty damn good "pay" for a college kid.

Beyond that, why does the NCAA need to give back the amount they make? What company does that? Exxon just made something like $30 billion last year - it's not like they gave it all back in raises and bonuses. The NCAA makes money because of their marketing and business decisions, as well as the quality of labor, and the labor is compensated in a mix of scholarships, education, and exposure, as well as all sorts of bonus services like free tutoring and such.

I would agree with you if the NFL and NCAA didn't collude to keep these great young players from viable alternatives. The pro leagues even have special anti-trust exemptions. Further, the NCAA servely restricts insurance and doesn't allow endorsements. Sorry the system totally exploits players like VY and R. Bush, what if they got a Bo Jackson like injury at the Rose Bowl? Totally exploitive situation with little personal protections from my perspective. I wouldn't blame Bush and his family for getting sweetheart deals to protect their earning potential, though little to no rent for a year is hardly long term thinking. Under the table million bucks gift (pay me that much now on the condition if I get a 10 mil contract down the line I'll pay you 1.5 of it--not loans but gifts) I would have no problem with.

[JeffB]

I've never understood this line of reasoning. First off, for players like Bush & Young and anyone else that's drafted, they get massive free national exposure through the NCAA which results in their next job. Second, every player gets the opportunity at a free education. At some schools, that's worth over $100,000 over 4 years. That's pretty damn good "pay" for a college kid.
Only if you graduate. And that is the key portion of my line of reasoning that you conveniently left out: graduation rates. Education for play is a great deal, so long as you get a chance to do your school work and learn (which many athletes don't, with the help/collusion of the athletic dept.) and, most importantly, graduate. Without that, you didn't get the $100,000 sheepskin.

For me the issue isn't about the Youngs and Bushes but the Joe Blows we never hear about, who don't get a quality education and/or don't even graduate.

[Major]

Only if you graduate. And that is the key portion of my line of reasoning that you conveniently left out: graduation rates. Education for play is a great deal, so long as you get a chance to do your school work and learn (which many athletes don't, with the help/collusion of the athletic dept.) and, most importantly, graduate. Without that, you didn't get the $100,000 sheepskin.

For me the issue isn't about the Youngs and Bushes but the Joe Blows we never hear about, who don't get a quality education and/or don't even graduate.

But that's the player's choice. The universities give them more than enough assistance - free tuition, housing, etc. Free tutoring, whatever. It's up to the player to put in the effort to be successful. Like an internship/apprenticeship, you can choose to do nothing and get nothing out of it, or get a huge return if you work your ass off.

[JeffB]

But that's the player's choice. The universities give them more than enough assistance - free tuition, housing, etc. Free tutoring, whatever. It's up to the player to put in the effort to be successful. Like an internship/apprenticeship, you can choose to do nothing and get nothing out of it, or get a huge return if you work your ass off.
I beleived that too until I witnessed first hand the obligations and pressure those cats have to bear. The universities provide assistance both above and below the table. Its the below the table stuff that irks me most. Not all coaches hold their guys to a single high standard. Some coaches just exploit and move on.

Yeah, you can always come back to the individualism argument, and that will always have merit. But you can't eschew the institutional critique for the individual (in this instance) operates within the institution.

[Rocket Fan]

pgabriel.. all i know is that my biggest problem with college athletics is the number of schools that do not have their players graduating.

one of the motives behind my school getting rid of the seperate athletic department and putting it into student life was to make sure that the athletes are allowed to do more than just be athletes 24/7...

the schools should make sure that the players have time to both do work and be athletes.. I agree with that part

[rrj_gamz]

If the allegations are true, Bush is dirty and probaby fit into the decision making process a little...The article about "extortion" is pretty damning, but everyone is innocent until proven guilty...If they didn't pay a dime, then shame on Bush...

[SwoLy-D]

A HUGE BUMp:

Does anyone out there, like me, think that this had ANYTHING to do with selecting MARIO WILLIAMS???

[MadMax]

A HUGE BUMp:

Does anyone out there, like me, think that this had ANYTHING to do with selecting MARIO WILLIAMS???

Casserly says it didn't.

I can't imagine it did, in all seriousness. This is a college story...not a pro story. If Reggie is all that he's touted to be, you don't let a story like this keep you from selecting him.

But of course, I'm of the opinion you don't let a QB like David Carr keep you from taking one like VY, so what do I know?

[Fegwu]

If the allegations are true, Bush is dirty and probaby fit into the decision making process a little...The article about "extortion" is pretty damning, but everyone is innocent until proven guilty...If they didn't pay a dime, then shame on Bush...

I bet Michael Michaels, LL and Caravantes are laughing now. Karma I guess.

I still say Bush should settle out of court or out of the public eye or out of whatever with them and avoid further embarassment because I am sure (I could smell something bad here) that Michaels and co have some sort of damning evidence. Maybe it is too late for Bush to comply but if possible they should settle. The last thing he needs is death threats and other extortion tactics.

I guess this issue may have played a part. I truly believe KAS13 was spot on on the the iside info he provided us but like I warned him ...nothing is this life is ever guaranteed...not even death (since technically God can zap you up ala Moses).

Oh well Bush is another person's issue now - we welcome Mario with his baggageless self.