[ESPN Page 2] Baseball's most valuable players

[kaleidosky]

I think this is a really cool thing if you're into the MLB and somewhat of a stat and/or history geek about it.

50 through 26..
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=silver/060418

25 through 1..
(part 2 is linked at the bottom of the first one, also)
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=silver/060418_2

It basically ranks guys based on their current production, age, and likely future production...and the future estimates are based on all kinds of stats plus injury history. Some of the stats they bring in are nice...such as Dontrelle's strikeout rate making his "true" age higher than you might think.

Lance and RoyO are on there..

[kaleidosky]

The exercepts on our guys..


38. Lance Berkman, 1B-OF, Houston Astros (30)

Little-known fact: While Minute Maid Park is a fine home for right-handed hitters, it depresses the numbers of lefties to the tune of 10 to 15 percent, roughly comparable to RFK Stadium or PETCO Park. In other words, Berkman, who takes most of his at-bats (and does the vast majority of his damage) from the port side of home plate, is chronically underrated everywhere outside of the Houston Metroplex. Not that he needs much sympathy: Berkman's career OPS of .973 is the 17th highest in baseball history entering this season.

23. Roy Oswalt, P, Houston Astros (28)

Oswalt's career always has reminded me of Mike Mussina's. Appropriately, PECOTA identifies Mussina as Oswalt's No. 2 comparable (unheralded ex-Expo Steve Rogers is No. 1). In his six seasons between the ages of 28 and 33, Mussina averaged 15 wins, 195 strikeouts, and an ERA 30 percent better than the league average. You can expect similar production from Oswalt, but he's trailing well behind the Moose in the nickname department. Oswalt has always looked a bit weasely -- might we suggest the Opossum?

[rocks_fan]

My personal nickname for Roy O is Boomhauer, due to the slight resemblance and the speech patterns.

[Another Brother]

nice read. thx.

[arkoe]

If the writer writes that same article again this time next year, Ensberg's going to be on there as well.

I was kind of surprised he had Dunn ahead of Berkman.

[Raven Lunatic]

If the writer writes that same article again this time next year, Ensberg's going to be on there as well.

I was kind of surprised he had Dunn ahead of Berkman.

Well, Dunn is 4 years younger than Lance, so he does figure to have more years of peak productivity out of him than Lance at this point in time, which was a factor in these rankings.

[wrath_of_khan]

Did he have to gush over Pujols' NLCS homer off Lidge to prove how great Pujols is? I mean, couldn't he have used "youngest player ever to get to [insert statistical milestone here]" instead?

Sorry, but I still get queasy when I think of that moment ...

1. Albert Pujols, 1B, St. Louis Cardinals (26)

What I remember most about Albert Pujols' young career isn't that he hit a home run against Brad Lidge in Game 5 of the NLCS, allowing the Cardinals to cash in on what must have been a 500-to-1 comeback shot. It was how far he hit that home run. Carlton Fisk and Kirk Gibson and Joe Carter -- their home runs seemed to suspend themselves in the air for about 30 seconds, long enough for the requisite preening and posing and multiple camera angles and Bob Costas soliloquy.

But Pujols' home run was like the strobing cross-section of memories you get after a night of heavy drinking. Hanging slider … ZIP! … Cardinals dogpile … ZIP! … falling asleep on the couch watching QVC. Pujols has done to the Best Player in Baseball debate what he did to Lidge's slider. Eighteen months ago, there was a healthy argument going between A-Rod and Barry Bonds, with Pujols just hanging around taking his cuts in the on-deck circle. Now, Pujols has passed them both, and it isn't even close.

[EddieWasSnubbed]

Oswalt has one of the coolest nicknames, though. I think "The Wizard" fits him perfectly.


Plus, he'd look funny in a Merlin's hat. :D

[MadMax]

Plus, he'd look funny in a Merlin's hat. :D

like bloodninja..is it possible that roy is bloodninja?

[eric.81]

Oswalt has one of the coolest nicknames, though. I think "The Wizard" fits him perfectly.


Plus, he'd look funny in a Merlin's hat. :D


I don't like "The Wizard" for him because that would insiuate that he is "The Wizard of (OWES)" and that doesn't sound right. Plus, that was Ozzie Smith's nickname... see the pronunciation works on that one. I like Boomhauer. or O-Z

[JayZ750]

Carlos Beltran being ranked higher than Berkman is a traveshamockery!

[MadMax]

Carlos Beltran being ranked higher than Berkman is a traveshamockery!

wow. i didn't see that. you're absolutely right. that's a joke.

[Buck Turgidson]

I don't like "The Wizard" for him because that would insiuate that he is "The Wizard of (OWES)" and that doesn't sound right.
"Owes" = 0's = zeroes

As in 000 000 000.

Sounds about right.

[swilkins]

"Owes" = 0's = zeroes

As in 000 000 000.

Sounds about right.

I agree. That's what I was thinking.

I can see Roy O telling the batter, "You'll get nothing and like it!!!"

[pgabriel]

when you consider beltran's speed and centerfield play, that's not so ludicrous. lance is definitely a better hitter, but he hasn't shown that much more power than beltran, and rbi are pretty close.

[Jugdish]

Jeter's well-rounded? Wasn't he ranked as the worst AL shortstop defensively in The Fielding Bible?

[MadMax]

when you consider beltran's speed and centerfield play, that's not so ludicrous. lance is definitely a better hitter, but he hasn't shown that much more power than beltran, and rbi are pretty close.

hmmm...i think Berkman is a decidedly better hitter. enough so to neutralize the other arguments, particularly considering the astros have played lance out of position for virtually all of his career.

Lance has 3209 AB's..he has a .419 career OBP with a .561 slugging average, a .303 batting average. 635 RBI with 602 runs scored.

Beltran has 4082 AB's (so a little over 800 more AB's)..he has a career .351 OBP with a .480 slugging percentage and a career .281 batting average. 656 RBI wih 712 runs scored.

if i'm starting a team i take lance every single time over carlos.

[pgabriel]

but what you aren't considering is berkman is supposed to hit from first base, the prodcution carlos gives you from centerfield is bonus. a 30 hr, 100 rbi guy who's a pretty darn good centerfielder is more valuable than a .315 35 hr 130 rbi firstbaseman.

imo

[MadMax]

but what you aren't considering is berkman is supposed to hit from first base, the prodcution carlos gives you from centerfield is bonus. a 30 hr, 100 rbi guy who's a pretty darn good centerfielder is more valuable than a .315 35 hr 130 rbi firstbaseman.

imo


that's true. maybe you're right.

i would point out that beltran has only hit 30 HR's once in his career, though. he had a below average 2005. let's see how he does this season.

i have a hunch, though...if beltran were playing in houston and berkman were playing in NY...somehow i think they'd be flipped on lists like these.

[bobrek]

that's true. maybe you're right.

i would point out that beltran has only hit 30 HR's once in his career, though. he had a below average 2005. let's see how he does this season.

i have a hunch, though...if beltran were playing in houston and berkman were playing in NY...somehow i think they'd be flipped on lists like these.

I think if it wasn't for 2 weeks in October 2004, that they would be flipped.

[kaleidosky]

I think if it wasn't for 2 weeks in October 2004, that they would be flipped.

I agree.

but I also think Beltran's leg injuries have really really hurt him in every aspect of his game. IF he can get over them, I think he'll be good again. If he plans on doing this every year (as many speedy/power guys have done until they just stopped running much), I think he's demoted from his star status.

[Tb-Cain]

like bloodninja..is it possible that roy is bloodninja?
"Aight, I put on my robe and wizard hat."

[Burzmali]

Completely inane list, no surprise here.

Jason Bay ahead of both Oswalt and Berkman.

Derek Jeter ahead of both Oswalt and Berkman.

David Wright ranked as the 2nd most valuable player in the major leagues.

Brian McCann at #40.

Ben Sheets drastically underrated at #44.

This is a joke of an article.

[kaleidosky]

Completely inane list, no surprise here.

Jason Bay ahead of both Oswalt and Berkman.

Derek Jeter ahead of both Oswalt and Berkman.

David Wright ranked as the 2nd most valuable player in the major leagues.

Brian McCann at #40.

Ben Sheets drastically underrated at #44.

This is a joke of an article.

Did you read it? It's partly about production at age, statistical comparisons, and injury history. Sheets has had a lot of injury concerns the last few years. Wright is doing some incredible things at this young an age, and probably has a number of years ahead of him.

[Raven Lunatic]

Did you read it? It's partly about production at age, statistical comparisons, and injury history. Sheets has had a lot of injury concerns the last few years. Wright is doing some incredible things at this young an age, and probably has a number of years ahead of him.

Of course, none of that really exlpains the Jeter positioning...which I do find odd.

[Preston27]

How about "Bulldozer" for Oswalt's nickname?

[StupidMoniker]

Of course, none of that really exlpains the Jeter positioning...which I do find odd.
He has a gold glove, 4 world series rings and more hits than just about anyone in the last 10 years. He made one of the most famous plays in baseball history, which probably bumped him up at least a few spots. He is a leader on the field and in the clubhouse. What's not to like? It isn't like he was top 5 with A-Rod, he was the third ranked SS (4th if you count A-Rod).

[baller4life315]

Completely inane list, no surprise here.

Jason Bay ahead of both Oswalt and Berkman.



Bay is the most underrated player in baseball. I'm sure you hardly ever watch the Pirates play so you couldn't understand the importance he has to this team and how better his power numbers could be if he played on a better team. He is the complete package.

While he may not be better than Berkman, I will still take the guy putting up similar numbers making $1 million a year over the guy making $15 million.

[BigM]

oswalt is only 28 and he's as good as any pitcher in baseball. i think 23 is way too low for him.

[Raven Lunatic]

He has a gold glove, 4 world series rings and more hits than just about anyone in the last 10 years. He made one of the most famous plays in baseball history, which probably bumped him up at least a few spots. He is a leader on the field and in the clubhouse. What's not to like? It isn't like he was top 5 with A-Rod, he was the third ranked SS (4th if you count A-Rod).

You apparently didn't read the article either. It is mainly about what the player provides NOW and what he will likely provide in the FUTURE. Past accomplishements mean nothing to these guys, which is why an 18 year old made the top 25. To me, Jeter's best years are likely behind him, and on top of that he is a poor defensive player. The leadership thing I get, but I don't think that should be enough to put him above many of the players underneath him.

[insane man]

I think if it wasn't for 2 weeks in October 2004, that they would be flipped.

but damn. those two weeks were amazing.

[StupidMoniker]

You apparently didn't read the article either. It is mainly about what the player provides NOW and what he will likely provide in the FUTURE. Past accomplishements mean nothing to these guys, which is why an 18 year old made the top 25. To me, Jeter's best years are likely behind him, and on top of that he is a poor defensive player. The leadership thing I get, but I don't think that should be enough to put him above many of the players underneath him.
I did read the article. Jeter is not even the oldest guy on there. Do you really think he will have a big drop off in production in the next few years? He is in his prime. They are basically looking at the next six years, if I understand it correctly, and the guys who are great prospects but not ready to contribute yet are probably going to provide the same benefit as the guys that are in their prime now but will start to tail off in a few years.

I don't know how you can call Jeter a poor defensive player, he just won back to back Gold Gloves at shortstop. The Gold Glove isn't determined by fan vote. I don't think they give it to poor defensive players very often.

That is why they called him one of the most well rounded players, offense, defense, and intangibles. Do you really think he will be less valuable than Berkman over the next 6 years? Maybe you think Berkman is a more valuable defender than Jeter?

[Buck Turgidson]

I don't know how you can call Jeter a poor defensive player, he just won back to back Gold Gloves at shortstop. The Gold Glove isn't determined by fan vote. I don't think they give it to poor defensive players very often.
He's the worst defensive starting SS in MLB. Using the Gold Glove - easily the biggest joke of an award in pro sports - as evidence of his fielding prowess is hilarious.

[Burzmali]

I did read the article. Jeter is not even the oldest guy on there. Do you really think he will have a big drop off in production in the next few years? He is in his prime. They are basically looking at the next six years, if I understand it correctly, and the guys who are great prospects but not ready to contribute yet are probably going to provide the same benefit as the guys that are in their prime now but will start to tail off in a few years.

I don't know how you can call Jeter a poor defensive player, he just won back to back Gold Gloves at shortstop. The Gold Glove isn't determined by fan vote. I don't think they give it to poor defensive players very often.

That is why they called him one of the most well rounded players, offense, defense, and intangibles. Do you really think he will be less valuable than Berkman over the next 6 years? Maybe you think Berkman is a more valuable defender than Jeter?

Jeter is the worst defensive shortstop in the major leagues. He's a solid #2 hitter, nothing too special. His "intangibles" are just that. Nothing real, just media hype. He's the most overrated player in baseball.

Berkman is an elite slugger, probably among the top 2-3 in the majors.