Brad Lidge

[Joe Joe]

The Astros have a history of being able to build closers and not wanting to pay closers. This may be more Attila's work than Pupura's. The Astros have two capable guys to step into the closer role in Qualls and Wheeler. Nieve has also been solid.

This made me think the Astros were going to try to trade him. Then I read this blurb from www.astros.com a while back:

"It'll either be a cutter or splitty, depending on who it is," Lidge said. "I don't think I'll be throwing them a ton this year by any means, but we're looking for an extra pitch, especially to lefties. I like them both. I'll definitely be using them some this year."

This would imply the Astros want to keep him, but turn him into a three pitch closer. Over the last three years, Lidge's work against lefties hasn't been as good as against righties, but lefties still do worse againt Lidge than Ausmus does against the league.

My question is have the Astros decided to keep an expensive closer long-term and want the most bang for their buck or is Lidge being developed into a starter for the Post-Clemens era?

[bobrek]

They paid Billy Wagner lots and lots of money. What other elite closer have they had that they didn't pay?

EDIT:

You're lumping Nieve in with Qualls and Wheeler? What is that based on? 2/3 of an inning in an 8-0 blowout?

[Joe Joe]

They paid Billy Wagner lots and lots of money. What other elite closer have they had that they didn't pay?

EDIT:

You're lumping Nieve in with Qualls and Wheeler? What is that based on? 2/3 of an inning in an 8-0 blowout?

Did not mean to lump Nieve with Qualls and Wheeler, but to suggest he could be valuable in the seventh inning role.

The Astros traded an All-Star for a great propect and two other guys. Money seemed to be the dominant factor along with having a standby in Dotel. I was also counting Dotel. We did get good value for one year for Dotel so I probably shouldn't have been including him in my thoughts.

[apostolic3]

Moving Lidge into a starters role is intriguing. I like the idea.

FWIW, I heard on the radio Qualls future may be as a starter.

[kaleidosky]

Random, didn't wanna create a new thread just for the guy. Dan Miceli is up to his old tricks again.. blew it for the Rays last night, heh

[Nick]

Did not mean to lump Nieve with Qualls and Wheeler, but to suggest he could be valuable in the seventh inning role.

The Astros traded an All-Star for a great propect and two other guys. Money seemed to be the dominant factor along with having a standby in Dotel. I was also counting Dotel. We did get good value for one year for Dotel so I probably shouldn't have been including him in my thoughts.

If money was the primary issue, they would have never signed Billy Wagner to the original contract extension in 2001 that paid him the $10-12 million per year. HELL, they signed him to this extension after the season that he had ELBOW SURGERY... making it seem even more of a ridiculous contract.

When the second contract negotiations came around... everybody knew that Wagner wasn't worth $11 million still, except for Wagner (and the big market teams that don't develop pitchers). Plus, we had Dotel AND Lidge rearing to go. Also, I'm still waiting for Wagner to be the "missing link" in Philadelphia... oh yea, he wasn't (because guys who pitch only one inning, and get paid more than 95% of the team, aren't completely worth it).

Qualls and Wheeler are nowhere near the backup option that Dotel and Lidge were. Also, I truly believe they'll resign Lidge to a multi-year deal once his arbitration years are up.

[Major]

The Astros traded an All-Star for a great propect and two other guys. Money seemed to be the dominant factor along with having a standby in Dotel. I was also counting Dotel. We did get good value for one year for Dotel so I probably shouldn't have been including him in my thoughts.

Keep in mind, though, that they paid Wagner huge amounts for 2 of the 3 years of his contract. He got traded when he mouthed off about how bad the franchise was.

[Nice Rollin]

trade him while people still think hes good.
too bad the astros didnt get tejada. it was soooo close

[Aceshigh7]

Lidge is the man. If the Astros trade him I will be very pissed off.

[MadMax]

i can't wait until Lidge finishes the season again with around 40 saves....and the astros find themselves playoff-bound once again.

[Gene the PIG]

Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding ... ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind

http://home.att.net/~chuckayoub/Jim_Morrison_Biography.jpg


I want Lidge to do well. He was awesome, before "that one game."

[Shaji]

Moving Lidge into a starters role is intriguing. I like the idea.

FWIW, I heard on the radio Qualls future may be as a starter.

i cant say i agree

wasnt lidge a starter in the minors? he wasnt nearly as good a starter as he is a reliever, and he was really injury-prone throwing all those pitches...as the closer hes damn near unhittable, and im not sure he has much more of a repertoire to be effective as a starter...the only starter i can think of who only throws two pitches is the big unit...besides why would you want him to move him out a role hes embraced so thoroughly and effectively?

qualls was a starter in the minors, but again it seems like his futures in the bullpen also, because hes been REAL solid in that role at the outset of his career

i DID hear about maybe wheeler moving into the rotation though...

[Nice Rollin]

Lidge is the man. If the Astros trade him I will be very pissed off.
even for tejada??? i dont think you would be pissed

[Saint Louis]

even for tejada??? i dont think you would be pissed

I would have trade Lidge, Lane and Backe (or Everett) for Tejada.

Would a line up of Biggio, Taveras, Berkman, Tejada, Ensberg, Wilson look awesome.

Back to reality.

[Aceshigh7]

even for tejada??? i dont think you would be pissed

Hell yes. I would.

Pitching > Offense.

Don't ever forget it.

And don't forget why we have been successful these last two years.

Seems like alot of you want us to turn into the Chicago Cubs. Weaken our bullpen or starting rotation for a little extra pop? Sure! Why not?

[kevwun]

Lidge used to have 3 pitches, the one missing being an absolutely filthy curve ball. He was going to be starter when the Astros drafted him coming out of Notre Dame and he most likely would have been a really good one. The only problem was his curve was as hard on him right arm as it was opposing batters. After reoccuring arm problems, Lidge stopped throwing the curve and was moved to the bullpen. The rest is history.

[Miguel]

:eek:

Some of you guys are amazing.

Lidge straight up for Tejada? No!


Lidge, Lane and Backe (or Everett) for Tejada? HELL NO!

[Joshfast]

Lidge for Tejada straight up and there are fans who think that would be a bad deal for the Astros? :confused:

Baltimore would have to be smoking crack. Lidge, Lane and Backe wouldn't even get that deal done because of Backe's injury.

[Nice Rollin]

Lidge for Tejada straight up and there are fans who think that would be a bad deal for the Astros? :confused:

Baltimore would have to be smoking crack. Lidge, Lane and Backe wouldn't even get that deal done because of Backe's injury.
agreed. for those that wouldnt do that trade. y'all have never seen tejada play. which is pretty amazing cuz he's on the all star team every year. hitting it out of minute maid in the hr derby. was a beast on the A's. i realize he fell off last year AND ONLY HIT .304 AVG ,.864 OPS 26 HR AND 98 RBI in 162 games FOR A HORRIBLE BALTIMORE TEAM

you dont know your MLB if you wouldnt do that trade!

[Nice Rollin]

I would have trade Lidge, Lane and Backe (or Everett) for Tejada.

Would a line up of Biggio, Taveras, Berkman, Tejada, Ensberg, Wilson look awesome.

Back to reality.
too bad that was almost reality :(


i dont know why you wouldnt take him
http://home.earthlink.net/~nicerollin/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tejada.gif

[Aceshigh7]

I think those Tejada trade proponents must not understand baseball very much.

Our starting rotation was already weakened (with the loss of Clemens). And you would merrily weaken our bullpen as well. Really smart.

I'll say it again, good pitching beats good hitting.

I guess ya'll would like our team to be like the Cubs.

[Nice Rollin]

I think those Tejada trade proponents must not understand baseball very much.

Our starting rotation was already weakened (with the loss of Clemens). And you would merrily weaken our bullpen as well. Really smart.

I'll say it again, good pitching beats good hitting.

I guess ya'll would like our team to be like the Cubs.
you act like the hitting is all that great......outside of berkman there's nobody. and try to tell me preston wilson is that good...

[Nice Rollin]

we're talkin about MIGUEL FREAKIN TEJADA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Cat]

Like the Cubs? How about like the Cardinals, Red Sox, Yankees, etc.? There are more teams with good offense than just the Cubs. Also, the Cubs might have won some more if Prior and Wood have actually been healthy. It's not the fault of the Cubs' offense as much as it is a lack of durability among their starting pitching.

It's one thing if folks were talking Oswalt or Pettitte for Tejada. An elite starting pitcher typically is more valuable than an elite hitter. But we're talking about a closer - a pitcher that in some seasons won't even pitch 60 innings. It's also a position that isn't even needed in every game (it's been over a week since Lidge has even gotten a save). It's also a position (relief pitching) that the Astros have considerable depth and talent in and could plug in Wheeler or Qualls into that role.

That's not to say that I don't like or appreciate Brad Lidge. He's a wonderful player, and his performance in the 2004 playoffs was the most dominant of any pitcher I've ever seen play. But if you're able to get a relatively young premium offensive talent at the game's most difficult position (SS) for a reliever, you do it. No matter who the reliever is. That said, not much point to the debate because if we offered the Orioles Lidge for Tejada straight up, they'd laugh hysterically and hang up the phone.

To put it in perspective, pretend for a second the Astros didn't have Brad Lidge and didn't have a consistent closer. Let's also pretend that Mariano Rivera was a couple years younger, and let's say the Yankees offer Rivera to us for Lance Berkman. Would any of you actually seriously consider that trade?

I hope not.

Relievers aren't starters. It's great to have an All-Star closer, and it helps you so much in close games. But if you can acquire one of the game's elite offensive talents at the most offensively-challenged position for a reliever, you do it. No questions. Not a second of hesitation. It's that simple. And it's not a knock against Lidge at all - I think the world of him. It's just the relative value of the two positions.

[Jugdish]

Lidge used to have 3 pitches, the one missing being an absolutely filthy curve ball. He was going to be starter when the Astros drafted him coming out of Notre Dame and he most likely would have been a really good one. The only problem was his curve was as hard on him right arm as it was opposing batters. After reoccuring arm problems, Lidge stopped throwing the curve and was moved to the bullpen. The rest is history.

Where did you hear this? As far as I know, the difference between throwing a curve and a slider is nothing more than ball placement in the hand.

[Jugdish]

Like the Cubs? How about like the Cardinals, Red Sox, Yankees, etc.? There are more teams with good offense than just the Cubs. Also, the Cubs might have won some more if Prior and Wood have actually been healthy. It's not the fault of the Cubs' offense as much as it is a lack of durability among their starting pitching.

It's one thing if folks were talking Oswalt or Pettitte for Tejada. An elite starting pitcher typically is more valuable than an elite hitter. But we're talking about a closer - a pitcher that in some seasons won't even pitch 60 innings. It's also a position that isn't even needed in every game (it's been over a week since Lidge has even gotten a save). It's also a position (relief pitching) that the Astros have considerable depth and talent in and could plug in Wheeler or Qualls into that role.

That's not to say that I don't like or appreciate Brad Lidge. He's a wonderful player, and his performance in the 2004 playoffs was the most dominant of any pitcher I've ever seen play. But if you're able to get a relatively young premium offensive talent at the game's most difficult position (SS) for a reliever, you do it. No matter who the reliever is. That said, not much point to the debate because if we offered the Orioles Lidge for Tejada straight up, they'd laugh hysterically and hang up the phone.

To put it in perspective, pretend for a second the Astros didn't have Brad Lidge and didn't have a consistent closer. Let's also pretend that Mariano Rivera was a couple years younger, and let's say the Yankees offer Rivera to us for Lance Berkman. Would any of you actually seriously consider that trade?

I hope not.

Relievers aren't starters. It's great to have an All-Star closer, and it helps you so much in close games. But if you can acquire one of the game's elite offensive talents at the most offensively-challenged position for a reliever, you do it. No questions. Not a second of hesitation. It's that simple. And it's not a knock against Lidge at all - I think the world of him. It's just the relative value of the two positions.

You're completly right, and I think you know that anyone unwilling to trade a closer (the most easily replaced role in the game) for a top 30 hitter is crazy.

[tigermission1]

Lidge is incredibly overrated, he's currently suffering from the "Nick Anderson syndrome", let's hope we can trade him for an impact player before the rest of the league figures it out.

If the rumors that we could've had Tejada for Lidge and some other mediocre player, then the Orioles GM should be immediately tested for steroids...I hear they shrink your brain as well.

[SamCassell]

Tejada is juiced, I wonder how good he'll be when he lays off the roids.

[Aceshigh7]

Like the Cubs? How about like the Cardinals, Red Sox, Yankees, etc.?

Even with our weak offense, add Clemens + a healthy Backe & we are better than all three of those teams. Just another example of how much more important pitching is than offense.

[tigermission1]

Aceshigh,

When the Cards club us to death this season, you'll understand (I thought the White Sox series sent that message home, but I guess not).

No one is saying either/or, of course you need great pitching and at least very good offense to win it all, but I don't think that a closer like Lidge is more valuable than a Tejada-caliber player, it's not even close...that's just crazy talk.

[Jugdish]

Even with our weak offense, add Clemens + a healthy Backe & we are better than all three of those teams. Just another example of how much more important pitching is than offense.

We had Clemens and a healthy Backe last year and we weren't better than the Cardinals. Though I'm told they lost some people.

[Nice Rollin]

Lidge is incredibly overrated, he's currently suffering from the "Nick Anderson syndrome", let's hope we can trade him for an impact player before the rest of the league figures it out.

If the rumors that we could've had Tejada for Lidge and some other mediocre player, then the Orioles GM should be immediately tested for steroids...I hear they shrink your brain as well.
exactly......trade him before other teams find out!

[Nice Rollin]

Even with our weak offense, add Clemens + a healthy Backe & we are better than all three of those teams. Just another example of how much more important pitching is than offense.
i know pitching is important but so IS HITTING! players like tejada come once in a lifetime. you gotta jump all over the oppurtunity just like the astros did. they were gonna do the deal until bemore dropped out. you can replace a closer easily. there are so many good closers, im sure there will be one on the market during the trade deadline

[Nice Rollin]

Even with our weak offense, add Clemens + a healthy Backe & we are better than all three of those teams. Just another example of how much more important pitching is than offense.
the cards got scott rolen back. probably the best third baseman two years ago and wouldve been last year. maybe the 2nd best this year if he can stay healthy (behind david wright)

[Aceshigh7]

You guys just don't understand. When I say we are better than those three teams, i'm not talking about ability to build nice regular season records. I'm talking about being best when it counts in the playoffs. After all, that's what every team plays for.

One or more of those teams might finish with a better regular season record than us. But with Clemens & Backe we would have the dominant pitching staff, and that's what counts in the playoffs.

Look at the 90's when the Stros had one of the powerhouse offenses in the league. Look at the first round playoff failures.

Now look at the last two years with our awesome pitching. The two most successful playoff runs in Astros history.

I don't give a rats ass about regular season records. In the playoffs, the team with the better pitching performances wins.. Period.

[Jugdish]

You guys just don't understand. When I say we are better than those three teams, i'm not talking about ability to build nice regular season records. I'm talking about being best when it counts in the playoffs. After all, that's what every team plays for.

One or more of those teams might finish with a better regular season record than us. But with Clemens & Backe we would have the dominant pitching staff, and that's what counts in the playoffs.

Look at the 90's when the Stros had one of the powerhouse offenses in the league. Look at the first round playoff failures.

Now look at the last two years with our awesome pitching. The two most successful playoff runs in Astros history.

I don't give a rats ass about regular season records. In the playoffs, the team with the better pitching performances wins.. Period.

I know I'm in a small minority here, but the playoffs mean nothing. The sample size is too small. Statistically, MLB should work like the Premiership--whoever has the best record in the end is the winner. No playoffs. Look at the Devil Rays' record against the Yankees the last few years--which team is better, really?

And the fact that you think a guy with a career ERA of 4.79 is dominating alarms me.

[Jugdish]

OPS and ERA are the most effective common stats in determining success.

OPS, ERA rankings of the last 7 champions:

2005: 16th, 4th
2004: 1st, 11th
2003: 13th, 10th
2002: 6th, 6th
2001: 9th, 4th
2000: 10th, 16th
1999: 4th, 8th

Teams with a better OPS than ERA: 3
Teams with a better ERA than OPS: 3
Teams with identical ratings: 1

Average champ OPS ranking: 8.43
Average champ ERA ranking: 8.43

Looks to me like pitching is as exactly as valuble as hitting.

[Jugdish]

OPS and ERA are the most effective common stats in determining success.

OPS, ERA rankings of the last 7 champions:

2005: 16th, 4th
2004: 1st, 11th
2003: 13th, 10th
2002: 6th, 6th
2001: 9th, 4th
2000: 10th, 16th
1999: 4th, 8th

Teams with a better OPS than ERA: 3
Teams with a better ERA than OPS: 3
Teams with identical ratings: 1

Average champ OPS ranking: 8.43
Average champ ERA ranking: 8.43

Looks to me like pitching is as exactly as valuble as hitting.

*Valuable

Thank God the next spelling challenge hasn't started yet!

[geeimsobored]

You guys just don't understand. When I say we are better than those three teams, i'm not talking about ability to build nice regular season records. I'm talking about being best when it counts in the playoffs. After all, that's what every team plays for.

One or more of those teams might finish with a better regular season record than us. But with Clemens & Backe we would have the dominant pitching staff, and that's what counts in the playoffs.

Look at the 90's when the Stros had one of the powerhouse offenses in the league. Look at the first round playoff failures.

Now look at the last two years with our awesome pitching. The two most successful playoff runs in Astros history.

I don't give a rats ass about regular season records. In the playoffs, the team with the better pitching performances wins.. Period.

Even if your argument is correct, lets look at our minor league system.

It's chock full of pitching prospects. Buchholz and Nieve just got out and were top prospects. Jason Hirsch and Troy Patten are both guys who could be really great. And we've got other guys that are slowly moving up. We are and have been loaded for years when it comes to top pitching prospects.

On the flip side, we have virtually no offensive prospects. The only name mentioned is Hunter Pence and he's a few years away. Luke Scott could develop into a good MLB player but he's still not there yet. Other than those two we have no one who we can count on.

So we need hitting and we need it badly. Tejada wouldve been a damn good edition to this team even if we had to give up backe and lidge. Lidge can be replaced as we've replaced closers in the past. And we have enough pitching prospects to fill the void with Backe.

[steddinotayto]

I don't want to get into OPS, ERA, W-L, or any other statistical debate. All I can say is Lidge is a pretty good to great closer but a Miguel Tejada effects a LOT more in terms of winning than Lidge does.

[Nice Rollin]

tejada plays everyday
lidge comes in with a 1+ run lead every other day and is required to only get 3 outs...closers are replaceable if you're willing to pay. ask the mets

[Nice Rollin]

You guys just don't understand. When I say we are better than those three teams, i'm not talking about ability to build nice regular season records. I'm talking about being best when it counts in the playoffs. After all, that's what every team plays for.

One or more of those teams might finish with a better regular season record than us. But with Clemens & Backe we would have the dominant pitching staff, and that's what counts in the playoffs.

Look at the 90's when the Stros had one of the powerhouse offenses in the league. Look at the first round playoff failures.

Now look at the last two years with our awesome pitching. The two most successful playoff runs in Astros history.

I don't give a rats ass about regular season records. In the playoffs, the team with the better pitching performances wins.. Period.

what happened in the world series? couldve used tejada more than lidge,lane and everett. the failed in the first round in the 90s cuz nobody could hit! dont you remember? you had randy johnson, lima, hampton, etc....

[Xenon]

This isn't the NBA. You build a team to GET to the playoffs and take your chances from there.

[Storm Surge]

Lidge is replaceable...nuff said

[Aceshigh7]

what happened in the world series? couldve used tejada more than lidge,lane and everett. the failed in the first round in the 90s cuz nobody could hit! dont you remember? you had randy johnson, lima, hampton, etc....

Umm, our losing in the playoffs was because of our opponents outpitching us. I believe Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine had a little something to do with our hitting problems.

[Nice Rollin]

Umm, our losing in the playoffs was because of our opponents outpitching us. I believe Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine had a little something to do with our hitting problems.
thats the greatest rotation of all time. back to back to back no hitters with the lineup the astros have right now. every world series team has had a great lineup. YOU CAN GIVE UP A CLOSER FOR A FURTURE HALL OF FAMER! I can understand if you were trading oswalt or something. but its brad lidge and 2 bums for tejada! thats a freakin bargain! HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT? its like trading for KG w/o having to give up tmac or yao....astros couldve used tejada. it almost went through :(

[Nice Rollin]

brad lidge, jason lane, and adam everett for miguel tejada (FUTRE HALL OF FAMER)....
equals
caron butler, lamar odom, and brian grant for shaq (FUTURE HALL OF FAMER)

lakers didnt get the full value for shaq
baltimore wouldnt have gotten full vaule for tejada

[BigM]

brad lidge, jason lane, and adam everett for miguel tejada (FUTRE HALL OF FAMER)....
equals
caron butler, lamar odom, and brian grant for shaq (FUTURE HALL OF FAMER)

lakers didnt get the full value for shaq
baltimore wouldnt have gotten full vaule for tejada

i'd easily trade lidge straight up for tejada but you're reaching on how good he is. shaq is one of the greatest players in nba history and tejada is no hall of famer at this point.

[Nice Rollin]

i'd easily trade lidge straight up for tejada but you're reaching on how good he is. shaq is one of the greatest players in nba history and tejada is no hall of famer at this point.
ok my bad. i shouldve said potential hall of famer

if he keeps up the numbers he's been putting up 30hr 100rbi seasons
he will be a hall of famer...he'll easily hit 400+ homeruns if he can stay healthy...the guys always been healthy he's played all 162 games 5 straight seasons. almost all the games in 7 straight seasons

[SamCassell]

A Tejada trade carried two risks: one, he could have invoked his right to demand a trade at the end of the season. Two, his name has come up in steroid conversations.

Also, you're talking about needing to replace two positions (OF and closer). And closers aren't as easy to replace as MetsFan might suggest - look at the scrubs they've trotted out in the 9th inning the last few years.

[Nice Rollin]

A Tejada trade carried two risks: one, he could have invoked his right to demand a trade at the end of the season. Two, his name has come up in steroid conversations.

Also, you're talking about needing to replace two positions (OF and closer). And closers aren't as easy to replace as MetsFan might suggest - look at the scrubs they've trotted out in the 9th inning the last few years.
thats true...mets have trotted out a lot of bums since '01
but closers are easy to replace. theres always a closer on the block. st louis got one. red sox, braves, etc

[Joe Joe]

On the flip side, we have virtually no offensive prospects. The only name mentioned is Hunter Pence and he's a few years away. Luke Scott could develop into a good MLB player but he's still not there yet. Other than those two we have no one who we can count on.


Scott is looking like he could become a really good pinch hitter. I think he might get one more shot at being an everyday major leaguer. Pence probably is not years away. He'll most likely get called up in September. If Scott hasn't got a position in majors by then, his everyday chances with Astros are likely done as those chances will go with the younger guy.

While closer can be a hard spot for some teams to fill, the Astros have 2 guys who I would say are more ready to be a closer than half the current closers in the league. If Lidge could make the jump to starter, he would potentially be worth more than Tejada depending on the drop off due to more work. As it is now, a package of Everett, Lane, and Lidge is viewed by at least two teams (the Orioles and Astros) as worth less than Tejada if one believes the Astros offered it to the Orioles.

[Fegwu]

Tejada is juiced, I wonder how good he'll be when he lays off the roids.

Mmmmmhhh..how are you sure that Brad Lidge is NOT roided up? I wonder how good his slider will be if the roids wear off (assuming he is on it).

Mmmmmhhhhh...

[Nice Rollin]

Scott is looking like he could become a really good pinch hitter. I think he might get one more shot at being an everyday major leaguer. Pence probably is not years away. He'll most likely get called up in September. If Scott hasn't got a position in majors by then, his everyday chances with Astros are likely done as those chances will go with the younger guy.

While closer can be a hard spot for some teams to fill, the Astros have 2 guys who I would say are more ready to be a closer than half the current closers in the league. If Lidge could make the jump to starter, he would potentially be worth more than Tejada depending on the drop off due to more work. As it is now, a package of Everett, Lane, and Lidge is viewed by at least two teams (the Orioles and Astros) as worth less than Tejada if one believes the Astros offered it to the Orioles.

well orioles agreed to the trade after tejada pulled back his demands on being traded. the trade was 99% complete

[Joe Joe]

well orioles agreed to the trade after tejada pulled back his demands on being traded. the trade was 99% complete

I was under the impression that it was the best deal offered and would only have happened with the trade demand.

[Nice Rollin]

old article from foxsports

Either Miguel Tejada had a genuine change of heart about the Orioles, or he flat-out blinked.

The National League champion Astros were the team closest to landing Tejada, FOXSports.com has learned, offering closer Brad Lidge, shortstop Adam Everett and either outfielder Jason Lane or Willy Taveras.

The Phillies also wanted Tejada, intending to move him from shortstop to third base. The Tigers, too, were in the mix, representing little of an improvement, if any, over the Orioles — the team Tejada was trying to flee.


Miguel Tejada chose the familiar over the unfamiliar with his decision to stay in Baltimore.

Perhaps Tejada sensed that he wasn't going to land with the Red Sox, seemingly his first choice, or the Cubs, possibly his second.

Perhaps, lacking no-trade protection, he wanted to regain a measure of control, and the only way to do that was by saying he would remain with the Orioles.

Well, that's no longer a sure thing.

The Orioles aren't looking to trade Tejada, but they're also in no position to dismiss interest in a player who remains at least somewhat disgruntled. The Astros' proposal intrigued them, and who's to say the Orioles won't revisit those discussions and others?

Everett, a gifted defender, would have been another Mark Belanger at short. Lane could have helped replace Tejada's offense, or Taveras would have filled the Orioles' void in center field, a position the team addressed Monday by acquiring the Cubs' Corey Patterson.

Lidge, one of the game's top closers, was the central figure from the Orioles' perspective, either as the replacement for departed free agent B.J. Ryan — or as a trade chip who could have helped the club address its biggest need, starting pitching.

Sources with knowledge of the negotiations say the Orioles and Astros could have agreed on the players in the deal with little difficulty. The Astros were concerned that Tejada would invoke his right to demand a trade at the end of next season as a player dealt in the middle of a multi-year contract. They likely would have asked Tejada to waive that right, a potential sticking point. The deal also would have required the approval of Orioles owner Peter Angelos, a demanding negotiator.

Astros owner Drayton McLane, however, evidently was prepared to absorb most or all of the $48 million remaining over the final four years of Tejada's contract while parting with three low-cost players who played significant roles in the Astros' World Series run. Barring further moves, the Astros' payroll might have soared past $100 million, assuming that right-hander Roger Clemens returned to the club.

Given Tejada's desire to play for a winner, he likely would have been satisfied by a trade to Houston — Clemens, Roy Oswalt and Andy Pettitte are just slightly more accomplished than the Orioles' Rodrigo Lopez, Daniel Cabrera and Erik Bedard. But Tejada didn't necessarily know he was going to the Astros. Perhaps he grew anxious when the Orioles' talks with the Red Sox and Cubs stalled, creating openings for other suitors.

One possibility clearly disturbed him: Through his agents, Tejada signaled to the Phillies that he would have played third base for only one season, then exercised his right to demand a trade. For that, the Phillies would have parted with right fielder Bobby Abreu? Didn't make sense.

In the end, Tejada chose the familiar over the unfamiliar, even though the familiar is a franchise that has had eight straight losing seasons — including six straight before he signed his six-year, $72 million contract with the Orioles after the 2003 season.

Tejada should have known what he was getting into when he sold himself not to the most competitive team but to the highest bidder. He may simply be biding time with his latest reversal. Judging from his comments to Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe during an interview in the Dominican Republic, Tejada still doesn't sound content.

Tejada told Edes he changed his mind because of his daughter, Alexis, 6, who had told him that she liked living in Baltimore. He also indicated that he had been bothered by criticism of his trade request both in the U.S. and Dominican Republic. But he also made it clear that he was not happy with the Orioles' direction, saying he was "really angry" that the team had not made significant off-season improvements.

Well, he can't have it both ways. If Tejada wanted out, he could have gotten out. Perhaps, as he told Edes, he merely heeded the advice of his wife, who told him, "Wait for God to give you the opportunity to win. Don't look for it. Let God decide when you're going to win."

Or perhaps, with the trade talks moving toward unknown, potentially undesirable outcomes, Tejada simply lost his nerve.

[My Lund]

I think those Tejada trade proponents must not understand baseball very much.

Our starting rotation was already weakened (with the loss of Clemens). And you would merrily weaken our bullpen as well. Really smart.

I'll say it again, good pitching beats good hitting.

I guess ya'll would like our team to be like the Cubs.

I absolutely agree. A Brad Lidge is much more valuable to a team than a player like Tejada who would not have resigned with the Astros anyways. The Astros have given up valuable prospects for 1 season or half a season of some big name stud, namely Randy Johnson and Beltran. They made the biggest offer in franchise history to Beltran and he did not resign here I seroiusly doubt Tejada would. Loaded offense does not necessarily win. Look at the Yankees, Rangers etc but great shut down pitching does. Look at the Astros last year :)

[Nice Rollin]

I absolutely agree. A Brad Lidge is much more valuable to a team than a player like Tejada who would not have resigned with the Astros anyways. The Astros have given up valuable prospects for 1 season or half a season of some big name stud, namely Randy Johnson and Beltran. They made the biggest offer in franchise history to Beltran and he did not resign here I seroiusly doubt Tejada would. Loaded offense does not necessarily win. Look at the Yankees, Rangers etc but great shut down pitching does. Look at the Astros last year :)
but if tejada did resign, you would do the trade, would you not?

this ridiculous...

[My Lund]

but if tejada did resign, you would do the trade, would you not?

this ridiculous...

Although that is a big big if yes in that case yes.

[Saint Louis]

It's all the proverbial water under the bridge at this point. I'll be happy if the slick fielding Everett can hit .270 this year. A .270 batting average for great defense at short is more then acceptable.

[Major]

Umm, our losing in the playoffs was because of our opponents outpitching us. I believe Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine had a little something to do with our hitting problems.

We were shutdown by the likes of Sterling Hitchcock too. Besides which, no other team had problems beating Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine in the playoffs all those years. We pitched phenomenally in several of those games but lost because of our hitting.

[Jugdish]

We were shutdown by the likes of Sterling Hitchcock too. Besides which, no other team had problems beating Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine in the playoffs all those years. We pitched phenomenally in several of those games but lost because of our hitting.

Don't forget Julio Lugo.

NEVER FORGET

[Joe Joe]

Don't forget Julio Lugo.

NEVER FORGET

You must lead a very painful life if you can't forget Lugo. Most Astros fans keep memories of him buried deep enough that it takes a really egregious error to recall him.

[Groogrux]

You must lead a very painful life if you can't forget Lugo. Most Astros fans keep memories of him buried deep enough that it takes a really egregious error to recall him.

I find a knock of the head to a car hood does the trick.

[Xerobull]

agreed. for those that wouldnt do that trade. y'all have never seen tejada play. which is pretty amazing cuz he's on the all star team every year. hitting it out of minute maid in the hr derby. was a beast on the A's. i realize he fell off last year AND ONLY HIT .304 AVG ,.864 OPS 26 HR AND 98 RBI in 162 games FOR A HORRIBLE BALTIMORE TEAM

you dont know your MLB if you wouldnt do that trade!

I agree that he's an all-star calibur player, but remember, EVERY team gets to send at least one player. Brad Ausmus was the Tiger's all-star between his Astros stints.

[Preston27]

Don't forget Julio Lugo.

NEVER FORGET

Wholio whogo?

[adeelsiddiqui]

You must lead a very painful life if you can't forget Lugo. Most Astros fans keep memories of him buried deep enough that it takes a really egregious error to recall him.
I actually liked Lugo very much.
And then he goes crazy and had family problems, and just liek the rockets, the astros decide to cut their ties with any players with family problems...

[SamCassell]

"Family problems"??

Lugo was accused of punching his wife in the mouth and slamming her head into the car. He was arrested outside of the ballpark. He was coming off a season where he hit .260/8/35 splitting time with Vizcaino, who outhit Lugo and played more steady defense. Adam Everett had just come up and was supposed to be a better prospect who played stellar defense. They were giving up on a guy who didn't look to be in their long term future plans anyway, because the off-the-field negatives outweighed his marginal production on the field.

In hindsight, Lugo's a very good offensive shortstop who remains erratic with the glove. I don't think the decision to trade him was one that's haunted the organization, not by any stretch of the imagination. Just like the Rockets probably don't regret getting rid of Eddie Griffin's bad attitude.

[arkoe]

We were looking for a reason to drop Lugo before he beat his wife. He might have become a better hitter than he was when he was here, but that doesn't mean the same would have happened if he stayed.

[Nice Rollin]

I agree that he's an all-star calibur player, but remember, EVERY team gets to send at least one player. Brad Ausmus was the Tiger's all-star between his Astros stints.
yeah but tejada gets in cuz of his numbers....

[Fegwu]

I think those Tejada trade proponents must not understand baseball very much.

Our starting rotation was already weakened (with the loss of Clemens). And you would merrily weaken our bullpen as well. Really smart.


I will not say if I am a proponent of the trade or not but I will say one thing though - that Dreyton and Tim Pup have more baseball knowledge [or Astros team as constituted] than you and I may ever ever know.

I think Pup is a smart man - in fact I dare say he is smarter than you when it comes to baseball.

Deal?

[Aceshigh7]

Two big clutch outs in the 8th by Lidge. 5/5 in save opportunities. The guy has been successful for us thus far and he hasn't even really been in sync yet.

Lidge is the man. That is all.

[BigM]

i could be wrong but i thought it was shown later that lugo's wife made the whole thing up. either way i'd rather have everett at this point.

[Bassfly]

ouch i think we all kinda saw this coming from a mile away. he even took the same "i just took a dump on the mound" pose he did after pujols in game 5.

[SWTsig]

Lidge is the man. If the Astros trade him I will be very pissed off.

i literally laughed out loud when i read this.

[Hippieloser]

Well, mother****er DID take a dump on the mound, and he's flushing his career right down with the turd.

I hate to see the guy lose it, but Lidge isn't even close to reliable anymore. It's gonna take a minor miracle for him to become decent again, let alone dominant. Even mediocre hitters are smelling that slider a mile away.

[reggietodd]

Lidge was 7 for 7 this year in saves, but that stat doesn't tell the whole story. His ERA was still close to 4 BEFORE Nomar hit that Grand Slam.

Lidge = done

[Bobblehead]

Lidge is too predictable now and without a 3rd pitch like a change up, he's done. I've lost all my confidence in him!!

[DieHard Rocket]

Lidge is too predictable now and without a 3rd pitch like a change up, he's done. I've lost all my confidence in him!!

Yep...they've figured him out. His slider is virtually unhittable, but it is also a ball about 80% of the time. They are just going to keep sitting on that fastball and tearing him up. He definitely needs a solid change-up or something offspeed, or he's not going to last much longer.

[superden]

Lidge is too predictable now and without a 3rd pitch like a change up, he's done. I've lost all my confidence in him!!

i think i would have to agree... that grand slam today... he put the other two on by walking them.

[Nice Rollin]

i feel sorry for brad lidge. pujols ruined his career. he's flirting with blowing saves everyday. trade him before his value goes down even more

[Nice Rollin]

Lidge is the man. If the Astros trade him I will be very pissed off.
where you at??? defend your boy

[DaDakota]

He had a curve ball in the minor leagues, he really does need an off speed pitch, hitters must be reading the slider out of his hand.

I wonder if he is tipping his pitches?

DD

[Nice Rollin]

he just cant throw strikes...thats his problem

[superden]

i feel sorry for brad lidge. pujols ruined his career. he's flirting with blowing saves everyday. trade him before his value goes down even more

i have to agree with that. i wish the tejada trade went through, that would have been sweet.

[toby]

19 games . . . seven out of 8 saves . . .

that's pretty damn good pitching, considering you cant throw strikes at the moment. once he finds his arm slot, he'll start knocking them down 1,2,3 again. May 8th this thread will look foolish.

Who closes on this team and gets seven out of eight saves, if not for mr. lidge. Qualls doesn't save seven out of eight, and i don't think wheller does either. if there is a problem with pitching and loses . . . look in Andy's corner, not brad's.

[Saint Louis]

he just cant throw strikes...thats his problem

A closer who walks batters isn't a good thing.

[Alimoe84]

Has anyone else noticed that this is the third save Lidge has blown off of a Berkman HR in the bottom of the 8th? I remember during the last week of the season in 2005, he blew a game to the Cubs. Then there was the HR to Pujols. Tonight it was the salami to Nomar. I think that for as much trouble Brad has gotten himself into through out his 7 saves, he's done a good job. But he just doesn't seem to have that swagger anymore. I have the idea of turning Backe into a closer. He has the intensity, more pitches, and the decreaser in innings would be good for his arm. Given his command would have to get better because he's been known to walk his fair share of batters, I think Brandon Backe could become very good as a closer. (Especially with the promising start to Buchholz's career).

[Nick]

Has anyone else noticed that this is the third save Lidge has blown off of a Berkman HR in the bottom of the 8th? I remember during the last week of the season in 2005, he blew a game to the Cubs. Then there was the HR to Pujols. Tonight it was the salami to Nomar. I think that for as much trouble Brad has gotten himself into through out his 7 saves, he's done a good job. But he just doesn't seem to have that swagger anymore. I have the idea of turning Backe into a closer. He has the intensity, more pitches, and the decreaser in innings would be good for his arm. Given his command would have to get better because he's been known to walk his fair share of batters, I think Brandon Backe could become very good as a closer. (Especially with the promising start to Buchholz's career).

Technically, any starter has the "stuff" to be a closer... that's why they're starters.

You turn guys who have just two plus pitches, or guys who seem to taper off after the 5th inning into bullpen guys... not proven starters.

[CreepyFloyd]

is brad lidge becoming mitch williams???????????

[texanskan]

Time to get Huston Street.

Oh yeah not gonna happen.

We are stuck with Lidge and that's ok.

I am pissed off too but it is only April and unlike Trever Miller or Mike Gallo Lidge has proven himself in this game. Let's hope he gets it together because if he does not we are in big trouble!

[toby]

i understand the complaining, but as long as he is not injured, brad is our closer. he might not close every night, but he isn't going to be traded, he isn't going to move to middle relief . . . he isn't going to start . . . and he isn't going to AAA . . . that leaves him closing a bunch of games. He's still the best closer on this team, hands down.

[DieHard Rocket]

if there is a problem with pitching and loses . . . look in Andy's corner, not brad's.

That is a joke if I've ever seen one. In three games now that the team lost when he started, Pettitte has gotten exactly 3 runs of run support...his only when we got 6 runs.

As someone pointed out earlier, 7/8 saves is deceiving right now. His ERA is ridiculous for a closer (over 4.00 coming in to today)...I think he's given up 3 or 4 homeruns too.

Hopefully they'll start working on developing another pitch, if he doens't have one already.

[toby]

That is a joke if I've ever seen one. In three games now that the team lost when he started, Pettitte has gotten exactly 3 runs of run support...his only when we got 6 runs.

As someone pointed out earlier, 7/8 saves is deceiving right now. His ERA is ridiculous for a closer (over 4.00 coming in to today)...I think he's given up 3 or 4 homeruns too.

Hopefully they'll start working on developing another pitch, if he doens't have one already.

ok, yeah . . . the andy thing was a bit over the top . . . my apologies for an over dramatization and exaggeration. The numbers aren't good for lidge so far. The seven saves were totally shakey, and maybe it is time to test the waters on developing some other pitchers; but we have what we have with lidge right now. Total agreement with the need for another pitch, whenever that may or may not happen. But in the meantime, Garner needs (in my opinion) to play with the ole' garner handbook and keep on marching Lidge out there with the game on the line. The only way to get an ERA to drop is to get out there and pitch.

[mozilla]

Lidge has been inconsistent at best this year. But he's still throwing 97 and his control on the slider will comeback. I'm not at all worried about lidge because he still has a great slider and fastball and he still has the fire inside him that will push him thru a tough time.

[Buck Turgidson]

Hopefully they'll start working on developing another pitch, if he doens't have one already.
He's been working on a splitter & a deviation of his slider since the offseason.

His problem is location & mechanics. He'll get it worked out.

[texanskan]

Lidge has been inconsistent at best this year. But he's still throwing 97 and his control on the slider will comeback. I'm not at all worried about lidge because he still has a great slider and fastball and he still has the fire inside him that will push him thru a tough time.

He needs to trust that fastball.

[adeelsiddiqui]

lets go get dotel back.

[Aceshigh7]

where you at??? defend your boy

Im here. All of yall are being way too hard on Lights Out. The guy is still one of the best closers in the league and he will turn things around. Even Riveria and Wagner have gone through times like this. Just dont be so fickle guys and try to show some loyalty to our boy. It seems like Astros fans are becoming more and more like Yankees fans every single day what with the booing of Wilson and so many people ready to give up on Lidge.

Brad Ausmus said it best last night: "There are 29 other teams in this league that would love to have him." That says something right there.

Lidge is still the man and I have total faith in him.

[Groogrux]

His problem is location & mechanics. He'll get it worked out.

No, he won't. Our only hope as a franchise is that Lidge somehow gets in a horrible accident and is unable to pitch anymore. If not, this franchise is DOOMED.

[Sishir Chang]

Lidge is looking more like a dimmer switch these days than lights out.

I gotta agree that he's not quite the same since Pujoot got him.

[LonghornFan]

Love him or hate him, this is a deece article.

April 25, 2006, 1:16AM
Opponents do not fear 'Lights Out'

By JOHN P. LOPEZ
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Phil Garner went to the trouble of figuring out just how dominant Brad Lidge will be this season, statistically speaking, if he keeps up his current pace of saves vs. blown saves.

"I just added it up," Garner said only moments after Lidge got Pujolsed in the ninth inning of Monday night's 6-2 loss to the Los Angeles Dodgers. "He could have 42 (saves) and six (blown saves). I'd take that."

I'd take it, too. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

While it might be difficult to argue with the numbers Lidge has posted this season, it definitely is not impossible.

He remains the go-to man in the bullpen. His fastball continues to be clocked in the mid to high 90s. His slider is nasty as ever.

But the fact Garner bothered to put pencil to paper in defense of his closer only moments after Nomar Garciaparra's ninth-inning grand slam blew the save, the win and all the good feelings this homestand has put in motion tells us two things.

Garner knows his closer is not the same pitcher he was a year ago. And statistics do, in fact, lie.

Not so dominating
Lidge had seven saves going into Monday night's appearance, which came after Lance Berkman launched a 415-foot home run in the bottom of the eighth to stake the Astros to a 2-1 lead.

The intimidating rock music blared.

The bullpen door opened.

The crowd roared.

But the Dodgers hardly fluttered or trembled. They must have been watching more tape of Lidge compared with last year or the 2004 season.

He's throwing more fastballs higher and losing them over the plate occasionally. In fact, all three home runs he has given up this season have been on fastballs.

He's throwing his slider where it should be, breaking into the dirt, but batters appear to be recognizing the difference between the fastballs and sliders better than ever.

What it means is that air of invincibility, the sense of the other guys having no chance, has slipped.

Throws hard, is hit harder
How do you argue with seven saves in seven appearances before Monday?

How do you argue with the statistic that matters most?

You watch the games and the swings other batters have gotten on Lidge.

This is not the same closer who had a stretch of more than five months last year (May through October) when he gave up just two home runs. Total.

Including Monday's slam and Albert Pujols' monstrous blow for the Cardinals in Game 5 of the NLCS, Lidge has given up five home runs in his last 15 save opportunities.

In 2006, Lidge has made 11 appearances — eight in save opportunities. In those games, only once has he not allowed an inherited runner to score, given up at least one hit, walked at least one or given up a home run.

The saves have come, but the appearances and performances have not been as clean, as overwhelming, as "Lights Out."

Opponents clearly see a ray of hope when they face Lidge, and if that's not a concern, it is undeniably something that needs fixing.

"Here and there, my location ... it's kind of tough to describe — sometimes you pay for it; sometimes you don't," Lidge said. "Right now I'm just happening to go through a stretch where my location is not real good. I'm throwing some bad pitches, and they're hitting them, too."

The Pujols question will continue to hover over Lidge, at least in the near term. Amateur psychologists will wonder to what degree that seemingly devastating blown save affected Lidge.

The truth is, the reason Lidge has had shaky if mostly successful performances in save situations is not that complicated. No one needs to overanalyze his mental state.

But neither does there appear to be a simple answer. Garner has hoped for more fastballs out of Lidge since spring training, but it's fastballs that have led to an 0-1 record, 6.75 ERA, 11 hits, eight earned runs and three home runs in Lidge's 2006.

His slider appears as overwhelming a pitch as ever. Yet the air of invincibility is gone.

"I feel like I've been pitching how I want," Lidge said. "It's a lot like normal. I'm just making a few more mistakes with my fastball."

Pick your reason: His fastball is often higher. His slider is more easily distinguishable. Batters have seen him more. The scouting reports are more thorough.

Blame it on the wind. Blame it on Pujols.

Until Lidge can straighten out his control issues, there will be only one certainty when the rock music blares in the top of the ninth: uncertainty.

john.lopez@chron.com

[Burzmali]

It seems to me that if the problem is that hitters are recognizing the slider and laying off, he should try throwing it for strikes.

No?

If the problem is general location on his pitches, then I don't know what to say.

[boomer83]

Garner destroyed Lidge,
he should have let him close in game 6 last year,

but I have said this for a while, Garner is a dumb manager, he makes a lot of mistakes, especially in the playoffs (he wasnt the reason we got to the world series last year)

[jakedasnake]

I wonder why people don't talk about Scott freaking Podsednik's homerun more than Pujols. Posednik has no power whatsoever and Lidge blew it in the WORLD SERIES. We beat the Cards even though Lidge gave up a homer to the best player in baseball. He seemed to be ok with that. But how you bounce back from a game winner to that pip squeak is beyond me. If either of those home runs have done damage I would imagine it was that one. That took the life out of us.

[Rule0001]

I think Lidge should ditch his 4 seamer and throw a 2 seam fastball with a little more movement and a little less velocity. His strikeout pitch could still be his slider. I think with a 2 seamer, he'd be less prone to giving up homeruns, which apparently Lidge is good at. Lidge could be a strikeout/groundout closer.

[Sishir Chang]

I wonder why people don't talk about Scott freaking Podsednik's homerun more than Pujols. Posednik has no power whatsoever and Lidge blew it in the WORLD SERIES. We beat the Cards even though Lidge gave up a homer to the best player in baseball. He seemed to be ok with that. But how you bounce back from a game winner to that pip squeak is beyond me. If either of those home runs have done damage I would imagine it was that one. That took the life out of us.

Pujols homer came first so the argument was that the aura of invincibiliaty had already come off of Lidge by the time Posednik hit his.

[Surfguy]

I think Brad Lidge is just way too inconsistent. He's basically got two pitches. If he's not "on" with those two pitches, then he's beatable. The slider in the dirt pitch, which used to work for him well before, is not getting it done because the batters have come to expect it. Then, he ends up falling behind in the count to where the hitters know a fastball is coming as he needs to throw a strike.

If I were facing Lidge, then I wouldn't even bother swinging at the first two or three pitches the way he has been going cause, more than likely, their going to be balls. Then, once he falls behind, I would be looking fastball cause it's really his only other pitch and he throws it when he needs a strike. And, his fastball is definitely hittable...especially if he isn't locating it well.

His slider works well when he's ahead in the count and then he can usually just throw a slider in the dirt to get a "K". As far as throwing his slider for strikes, I don't think he can do it consistently and, if he did, then it would get pounded if it is up in the strike zone.

Just my opinion.

[Roxfan73]

I think that Buck T has it down. It is quite obvious that Brad's mechanics are really off at this point. The location on the fastball seems to be the main issue here. Velocity is right where it should be. He just needs to locate it, and it'll be lights out. He has been pitching exclusively from the stretch for the last few games while working the kinks out.

As far as the league "figuring him out", you have to remember that baseball is a game of never-ending adjustments. He'll make his accordingly if he is infact tipping pitches.

He'll be fine. Let's all be thankful that it's April, and we will all have forgotten about this when he's slamming the door on the league in October.

[FranchiseBlade]

I think there are few closers that are going to have a perfect season. Gagne is hurt right now, and he was the best hope. Lidge is on pace to have a good year regarding his saves.

Sometimes, though he will blow the save, and he is going to rocked.

That doesn't make him a bad reliever.

[KAS13]

I think there are few closers that are going to have a perfect season. Gagne is hurt right now, and he was the best hope. Lidge is on pace to have a good year regarding his saves.

Sometimes, though he will blow the save, and he is going to rocked.

That doesn't make him a bad reliever.


He is on pace to have a good season in numbers but he looks lost out there and his ERA is terrible. Personally, I'm concerned. He's clearly not the same pitcher he was in the past right now (I'm not saying he can't get back to being that guy but we all know he isn't now). When Lidge takes the mound in a 1 run game now I actually worry, and that's something i never thought would happen.

[rrj_gamz]

He is on pace to have a good season in numbers but he looks lost out there and his ERA is terrible. Personally, I'm concerned. He's clearly not the same pitcher he was in the past right now (I'm not saying he can't get back to being that guy but we all know he isn't now). When Lidge takes the mound in a 1 run game now I actually worry, and that's something i never thought would happen.

Agreed...Its all in his head after the Pujols HR...

[Surfguy]

Agreed...Its all in his head after the Pujols HR...

I don't buy that for a second.

[KAS13]

I don't buy that for a second.


I think it's a combination of things but he hasn't been the same since Pujols hit that shot off him.

[FranchiseBlade]

He is on pace to have a good season in numbers but he looks lost out there and his ERA is terrible. Personally, I'm concerned. He's clearly not the same pitcher he was in the past right now (I'm not saying he can't get back to being that guy but we all know he isn't now). When Lidge takes the mound in a 1 run game now I actually worry, and that's something i never thought would happen.
I understand. I get a little nervous as well. I think he no longer flies under the radar the way he did before, and hitters can try and pick their pitch against him. I also think that if he can have some real successes, and solid outings, the momentum will swing his way again.

I don't think he all of a sudden became a bad reliever.

[Nice Rollin]

Agreed...Its all in his head after the Pujols HR...
and podsednick hr

[Nice Rollin]

19 games . . . seven out of 8 saves . . .

that's pretty damn good pitching, considering you cant throw strikes at the moment. once he finds his arm slot, he'll start knocking them down 1,2,3 again. May 8th this thread will look foolish.

Who closes on this team and gets seven out of eight saves, if not for mr. lidge. Qualls doesn't save seven out of eight, and i don't think wheller does either. if there is a problem with pitching and loses . . . look in Andy's corner, not brad's.
im sure half of those he almost blew like the one last week against the brewers 13-10 going into the ninth....and saturday night against teh pirates he got the save by recording one out. that doesnt count in my book....

[leroy420]

Without going through this entire thread, let me first say that, yes, there is something not right about Brad Lidge. However, is it not possible that the WBC had an effect on his spring and that he is a little behind where he should be at this point? Read this article...

Classic theory has pitchers in a funk (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ard7OTRaRVOVShdmwdwTcggRvLYF?slug=jp-pitchers042106&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Many pitchers that participated have had very bad starts to the season, including Johan Santana. It threw off their routine. Instead of working on new stuff or refining the old stuff, they were pitching in a World Series type environment. It had an effect of all of them. Lidge and Wheeler are included in this. Give them some time and I'll bet they'll both be back to what they are capable of being...dominant relief pitchers.

[reggietodd]

I don't buy that for a second.

Then you have never played sports and don't realize the mental aspects of it.

[Buck Turgidson]

Then you have never played sports and don't realize the mental aspects of it.
And you're not Brad Lidge, so don't sit here & tell us what's going on in his brain.

[Surfguy]

Then you have never played sports and don't realize the mental aspects of it.

Whatever you say...Mr. Expert.

[reggietodd]

And you're not Brad Lidge, so don't sit here & tell us what's going on in his brain.

IMO Pujols ruined him.

[Mack]

I thought Lidge was in a mini-slump before the playoffs last season. I don't have any numbers to back me up, but it seemed like he lost his razor sharp control and started walking people more.

This year he's walked a ton of people compared to what he usually does. His control is definitely off. I heard on the radio he was working on pitching exclusively from the stretch. Maybe he's still adjusting.

[Nice Rollin]

IMO Pujols ruined him.
you're right. that hr would **** anyone up. pujols is a beast!

[Nick]

I thought Lidge was in a mini-slump before the playoffs last season. I don't have any numbers to back me up, but it seemed like he lost his razor sharp control and started walking people more.

This year he's walked a ton of people compared to what he usually does. His control is definitely off. I heard on the radio he was working on pitching exclusively from the stretch. Maybe he's still adjusting.

Shh... don't tell anybody... but Lidge's WHIP and BB's went up significantly as the season went on (compared to 2004), and he had a rough final series against the Cubs.

He also didn't look good in games 3 or 4 of the NLCS... but people are only remembering game 5 (because the save was actually blown). He also ends up giving a 2 out hit to Eckstein that game, and WALKS Jim Edomonds (a guy he'd struck out virtually every single time before that) before he even faced Pujols.

But once again... shh... people like to think that Pujols ruined him forever, and he'll never ever ever recover.

[Nice Rollin]

Shh... don't tell anybody... but Lidge's WHIP and BB's went up significantly as the season went on (compared to 2004), and he had a rough final series against the Cubs.

He also didn't look good in games 3 or 4 of the NLCS... but people are only remembering game 5 (because the save was actually blown). He also ends up giving a 2 out hit to Eckstein that game, and WALKS Jim Edomonds (a guy he'd struck out virtually every single time before that) before he even faced Pujols.

But once again... shh... people like to think that Pujols ruined him forever, and he'll never ever ever recover.
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. pujols is a beast. shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he ruined brad lidge's career. shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he should apologize to him

[reggietodd]

up by one tonight, ended up loading the bases, was lucky to only give up one run. It is a wild time when this closer comes into the game here lately.

[FrontRowJoe]

I think it's a combination of things but he hasn't been the same since Pujols hit that shot off him.
Gotta agree with you there. As was previously mentioned, if you need an illustration on how one play can ruin your career mentally, you need look no further than Mitch Williams. He never recovered from what old Joe Carter did to him. Or how about Nick "The Brick" Anderson, who was a solid percentage shooter for the Orlando Magic, before bricking four straight free-throws in the NBA finals? He might as well have retired after that game, his career was so over. Lidge may not be completely dead yet, but he has definitely lost his mental edge. He's shown he's vulnerable, and that's awfully dangerous for a closer.

[IC2000]

I think it's a combination of things but he hasn't been the same since Pujols hit that shot off him.

He had been struggling before that. The reality of the matter is that his slider is a ball the majority of the time. Hitters are taking early and getting ahead in the count. They end up walking or sitting on the heat. I remember worrying about Lidge early in the Cards series. It seemed like people were picking up on this.

[Baqui99]

I say we send Byung Hyun Lidge back to Round Rock for a few weeks to learn how to pitch again.

[Mr. Brightside]

Lidge is still a decent closer, but not elite anymore. That said he could be the top closer for most teams out there.

[Preston27]

It is just a month into the season. I do agree that he could use a couple of weeks at round rock to regain his confidence.

[Aceshigh7]

It is just a month into the season. I do agree that he could use a couple of weeks at round rock to regain his confidence.

Oh yea, sending him to the minors would do wonders for his confidence.. :rolleyes:

[codell]

established veterans don't get sent to the minors to work out their problems, unless its injury related

[Groogrux]

I was listening to the ninth on the radio...were those boos I heard? **** those assholes if they were. Hopefully someone sitting close to one of those jerkdicks decided to, at the very least, throw their beers on those non-fans. That's right, I said it. Non-fans.

[Harrisment]

Yeah, I heard some boos on TV as well. Lidge is obviously struggling but the guy has been rock solid for the past few years. Without him we're not even in the playoffs the last two years. "Fans" turning on him this quickly is sad.

[codell]

i think alot of the fans were booing the umpire

[DaDakota]

Lidge needs to toughen up, he needs to buzz a few people off the dish, to make them uncomfortable at the plate.

If he is gonna be wild, be wild inside.

DD

[The Real Shady]

i think alot of the fans were booing the umpire

The fans were booing the umpire. Lidge did get some boos when he came off the field though.

[superden]

houston's a tough crowd, blow 2 saves in two nights...expect to be boo'ed

[Rule0001]

houston's a tough crowd, blow 2 saves in two nights...expect to be boo'ed

It's a tough deal, but when you choke two days in a row, the fans at least have a right to be mad.

Damn nearly close to being now 2-0 in this series instead of playing a rubber game today.

[bobrek]

It's a tough deal, but when you choke two days in a row, the fans at least have a right to be mad.

Damn nearly close to being now 2-0 in this series instead of playing a rubber game today.

Had they won Monday night, they may have lost Tuesday night.

[msn]

Houston's a tough crowd? What's Philly and NY then?

[Buck Turgidson]

houston's a tough crowd, blow 2 saves in two nights...expect to be boo'ed
...by a bunch of whiney frontrunning pussies.

[Baqui99]

Until Lidge gets it together, we need Qualls and Wheeler to share the closing duties.

[bobrek]

Until Lidge gets it together, we need Qualls and Wheeler to share the closing duties.

If Lidge isn't closing, how do we know if he gets it together? Closing is quite different from setting up. Just ask Octavio Dotel.

[Baqui99]

If Lidge isn't closing, how do we know if he gets it together? Closing is quite different from setting up. Just ask Octavio Dotel.

I think right now it has more to do with his location problems. He will blow more and more games if we keep rolling him out their with a 1 or 2 run lead.

[Nick]

I think right now it has more to do with his location problems. He will blow more and more games if we keep rolling him out their with a 1 or 2 run lead.

Well, if its truly mechanical, he will struggle at all times (not just in a save situation). And, judging from how he's looked this season in those non-save situations... something is just wrong when he releases the ball.

Having him pitch in those situations allows him to get a feel again for his pitches in game situations, while not potentially costing the team victories.

[Buck Turgidson]

btw...Isringhausen just blew his 2nd save of the year (2 out game tying bomb by Jose Hernandez). His ERA's now about 7.

Just sayin'...

[Nick]

btw...Isringhausen just blew his 2nd save of the year (2 out game tying bomb by Jose Hernandez). His ERA's now about 7.

Just sayin'...

I think Jeff Kent ruined him after the 2004 NLCS, game 5.

[My Lund]

I think Jeff Kent ruined him after the 2004 NLCS, game 5.

Not to mention Brad Ausmus in the regular season last year. :)

[Tb-Cain]

This has probably already been covered, but on ESPN, they have a pronunciation for Pujols.

Pronounced: POO-holes

No joke. Is that a pronunciation, or a commentary?

That said, I should excuse myself. I need to release some POO out my POO-hole.

BTW, he just got a walk-off single - another reliever Pujoled.

[Buck Turgidson]

I think Jeff Kent ruined him after the 2004 NLCS, game 5.
Yep.

Just like Kirk Gibson ruined Eckersley.
And Mazeroski ruined Ralph Terry.
And F*ckhead Dykstra ruined Dave Smith.
And Puckett ruined Charley Liebrandt.
And Chad Curtis ruined Mike Remlinger.
And Steve Garvey ruined Lee Smith.
And Aaron Boone ruined Wakefield.
etc...
etc...
But Mitch Williams was a flake so the script fits.

[wrath_of_khan]

BTW, he just got a walk-off single - another reliever Pujoled.

Damn, would the Cards lose some games already?

Our start has been awesome, but it's frustrating that more than half the division is also playing .650 ball ...

[Nick]

Damn, would the Cards lose some games already?

Our start has been awesome, but it's frustrating that more than half the division is also playing .650 ball ...

In the end, the team that wins the division will likely be the one that has the best record within the NL Central... if we want it, we gotta take care of the Cubs/Cards/Brew Crew ourselves.

May 3rd-4th is are first look at the Cards (@ MMP)... and it looks like it will be Oswalt and Pettite.

[leroy420]

Yep.

Just like Kirk Gibson ruined Eckersley.
And Mazeroski ruined Ralph Terry.
And F*ckhead Dykstra ruined Dave Smith.
And Puckett ruined Charley Liebrandt.
And Chad Curtis ruined Mike Remlinger.
And Steve Garvey ruined Lee Smith.
And Aaron Boone ruined Wakefield.
etc...
etc...
But Mitch Williams was a flake so the script fits.


And like Oswalt and Backe have ruined the entire Cardinals lineup.

[msn]

And like Oswalt and Backe have ruined the entire Cardinals lineup.
Thank you for that ray of sunshine.

[Nick]

What's up with the closers today...

Billy Wagner just gave up 3 runs in the ninth against the Giants (2 run shot to Bonds included)... game is tied now.

Izzy blew a save (team still won)

F. Cordero blew a save (team lost).

Would be funny if Lidge gets another chance tonight...

[Buck Turgidson]

Billy Wagner just gave up 3 runs in the ninth against the Giants (2 run shot to Bonds included)... game is tied now.
That's why Billy's such a good closer, he's not afraid to challenge hitters.

1B was open btw. Vintage Billy.

[Nick]

That's why Billy's such a good closer, he's not afraid to challenge hitters.

1B was open btw. Vintage Billy.

I know Bonds was just the tying run, and walking him would have meant putting the winning run on board... and I know he's been struggling lately with the bat... but there is still absolutely no reason to pitch to him in that situation.

What's more likely... Bonds hitting a HR that ties the game? Or the next guy (Lance Niekro) getting an extra-base hit that ties, or a HR that wins?

Even despite of his struggles, he is still one of only a few guys in baseball that should never ever see a pitch if the game is on the line, even if it means going against conventional thinking:
1.) Pujols
2.) Bonds
3.) D. Ortiz

[tigermission1]

Billy Wagner just gave up 3 runs in the ninth against the Giants (2 run shot to Bonds included)... game is tied now.

True, that's why I don't care about blown saves once in a while. The one thing you never have to worry about with "Billy the Kid" is his mental toughness and Clemens-like approach to pitching: he's coming after you, he won't back down and won't be intimidated.

Regardless of numbers, I don't think Lidge is in Wagner's league.

[Nice Rollin]

What's up with the closers today...

Billy Wagner just gave up 3 runs in the ninth against the Giants (2 run shot to Bonds included)... game is tied now.

Izzy blew a save (team still won)

F. Cordero blew a save (team lost).

Would be funny if Lidge gets another chance tonight...
i watched the mets game....do you know how many of those runs were earned????
wagner's still got it. david wrights error led to the 3 runs....

[Nice Rollin]

i watched the mets game....do you know how many of those runs were earned????
wagner's still got it. david wrights error led to the 3 runs....
the game was over if wright couldve made the play. bonds came up and the rest is history....

[Nick]

i watched the mets game....do you know how many of those runs were earned????
wagner's still got it. david wrights error led to the 3 runs....

Alright Mets fan... stop hyperventilating.

I guarantee you had Lidge given up any unearned runs in a blown save, this place would explode as usual... and we'd get about 10 posts from you commenting on his "psyche".

Wagner still gets blame because he didn't have to challenge Bonds in that situation... but Wags is probably thinking he's still as good as he was in 1999 (which he's not), and he's also thinking that Bonds is on his last legs (which he is, but he happens to be hot right now).

It also looks like Brian Bannister is a better hitter than he is pitcher, and the Mets are going to enjoy a lot of slugfests this season (especially when the weather gets warm).

Enjoy another season of playing second-fiddle to the Bronx... once they start heatin up, this whole Mets "thing", David Wright "thing", and Wagner/Beltran "thing" will be a blip on the back pages. Pedro will still get his respect... but watch out if things start goin south (he's not much of a "trooper").

[Nick]

True, that's why I don't care about blown saves once in a while. The one thing you never have to worry about with "Billy the Kid" is his mental toughness and Clemens-like approach to pitching: he's coming after you, he won't back down and won't be intimidated.

Regardless of numbers, I don't think Lidge is in Wagner's league.

Wagner has yet to have ONE SAVE in the playoffs... where the pressure is amped up by a million, compared to anything he's ever done in the regular season. As has been shown in his limited playoff experience, Wagner's stuff becomes very very hittable in the playoffs simply because all those teams have guys who can hit a fastball... Chipper Jones, Jim Leyritz... it doesn't matter.

He's a special guy... a notch below Rivera and Hoffman, but still someone who was able to be a top-flight closer for an extended period of time. But, as far as playoffs is concerend, Lidge's 2004 may have been one of the greatest runs by a closer EVER in the playoffs... and stands by itself when you compare the two. (and it will look even better if Lidge, contrary to your opinion, isn't done... rights the ship... and has a productive career past these first "microscopic" 20 games).

[francis 4 prez]

were those boos I heard?

i was saying boo-urns. actually, if people were booing, that would be pretty bad considering all lidge has done, but he is messing up quite a bit these days.

while lidge was struggling down the stretch and in the playoffs before the pujols blast and thus the pujols blast may not be what did it, i do think the old lidge is gone and will probably never return. there aren't many who lose their invincibility and then get it back. he was sick for 2 straight years. and the 2004 playoffs were amazing. his 3 perfect innings against the cards before the edmonds HR off miceli may have been the 3 most dominating innings i've ever seen from a pitcher. he made one of the best lineups in the game look like a little league team (pujols included). but you don't lose it for a month, suck in the playoffs, then struggle to start the next season and then just go back to being invincible. that's what lidge was for 2 years, he won't be again. he might still be a 40 saves per year closer and get it done a large percentage of the time, but it won't be automatic like it used to be. and any playoff situation will be scary.

as for wagner v lidge. lidge's 2004 playoffs have to put him above wagner but just in the regular season wagner has the lead. his 1999 season and some season in the 2000's had just unbelievable numbers, and then last year he also beat lidge pretty good in ERA and WHIP i think. in a pressure moment, i still take lidge, but wagner has done it better for longer when it comes to the regular season.

as for only having 2 pitches and people being onto him, that's not the problem. rivera has one pitch and no one's onto him. lidge had 2 pitches last year and slaughtered people. the location and intimidation aren't there right now.

And F*ckhead Dykstra ruined Dave Smith.

lol. other than occasionally saying something about shaq, dykstra is pretty much the only player i've ever heard my mom express an opinion about. she always hated him and called him a weasel. even though i barely remember seeing him play, that's all i ever think about when his name comes up, weasel. i guess the opinion is widespread.

[Nick]

F4P... no closer has ever been invincible in this game.

Also, if you read through the thread, you'll see that Mariano has had stretches where he's blown a bunch (in fact, he's blown more saves in the last 3 years in the playoffs than Brad Lidge has)... but he comes back strong.

Eckersly gave up a HR that basically lost the world series for the heavily favored Oakland A's in game 1... that's not easy to come back from, but he did.

Hoffmann has had so-so years, mixed with injuries, but looks pretty darn good heading into his twilight.

I understand that Lidge may never have the sheer "aura" that surrounded him during that 2004 playoff run... where it was almost as if he was playing a video game out there. But, to say that he can't get back to a level where you expect Mariano, Hoffman, or even Wagner to be at... is stretching it.

A lot has been amplified by him having this stretch so close to the beginning of the season (where everything is amplified)... the only good thing about it is that if he rights the ship, by mid-season this will completely be an afterthought (and basically forgotten if we get close to the playoffs again).

No pitcher can just go every year without making adjustments... fans have to realize that before we all go making our gospel-like proclamations (myself included).

[Buck Turgidson]

True, that's why I don't care about blown saves once in a while. The one thing you never have to worry about with "Billy the Kid" is his mental toughness and Clemens-like approach to pitching: he's coming after you, he won't back down and won't be intimidated.
This is comical. It is *exactly* Billy's "screw 'em, here comes the heater" mentality that is his biggest drawback as a closer.

If you didn't see that when he was an Astro, I can't help you. The Bonds HR is just another in a long list of examples where Billy's "not backing down" bravado was not the wise course of action, and cost the team.

The Jim Leyritz bomb in the playoffs that Nick brought up, on a fastball preceeded by about 6 other fouled-off fastballs, is the most glaring example.

[msn]

Regardless of numbers, I don't think Lidge is in Wagner's league.
The *only* thing that sets them apart, IMO, is longevity. Five years from now, we'll see where the comparison stands. I'm not willing to make a prediction, but it will be interesting how it plays out.

[superden]

There is def something lidge needs to fix. Batters are really sitting on his sliders and his control isn't like how it use to be.

[MadMax]

The Jim Leyritz bomb in the playoffs that Nick brought up, on a fastball preceeded by about 6 other fouled-off fastballs, is the most glaring example.

among the most frustrating things i've ever seen.

i was so ready for billy to get his ass out of town.

[The Real Shady]

Kevin Bass is speaking about Lidge right now and says that it looks like Brad Lidge has lost his feel of the slider. It's breaking too early and hitters can recognize it now. He noticed this towards the end of last year before the Pujols HR.

He says it's mental and Lidge has lost confidence in his pitches. When Lidge was at his best he could throw the slider in the dirt and hitters would swing at it because they could not recognize it.

[Nice Rollin]

pujols ruined him

[ryan17wagner]

I wouldn't say Pujols runied him. A lot of the pithcers who pithced in the WBC have been struggling. A lot of it is becase pitchers get their arm strenght in spring training. Because they didn't. Now it's catching up to them Here's a list of some of them:

WBC PITCHERS:

Bruce Chen Baltimore Panama 0-2, 8.10
Chad Cordero Washington USA 3 HRs in 7 IP
Freddy Garcia Chi. White Sox Venezuela 2-1, 7.80
Jorge Julio NY Mets Venezuela 0-1, 10.80
Sunny Kim Colorado Korea 0-0, 19.80
Esteban Loaiza Oakland Mexico 0-2, 8.59
Rodrigo Lopez Baltimore Mexico 1-1, 7.20
Oliver Perez Pittsburgh Mexico 1-2, 6.75
Jorge Sosa Atlanta Dom. Republic 0-3, 10.45
Huston Street Oakland USA 1-1, 7.94

No need to post Lidge's stats. We all know what's up.

[kaleidosky]

From Jayson Stark's column.. (apparently he hasn't read this board..check out the bolded part)

WBC is a good point

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2424797&CMP=ILC-INHEAD

• CLOSING TIME: The Astros pitcher who is actually a bigger concern than Clemens right now is Brad Lidge, who, incredibly, has been scored on in four of his last five outings (and faced just one hitter in the game he put up a donut). The only other time Lidge had ever given up a run in four of five games was the first five appearances of his big-league career, in 2002.

Lidge does have seven saves, and he's striking out 12.3 hitters per nine innings. So they're not exactly panicking in the taquerias. And nobody thinks this has anything to do with Albert Pujols hangover. So let's drop that theory right now.

The more reasonable theory, Purpura believes, is a minor mechanical glitch. But one NL executive thinks it's time to add Lidge to the list of pitchers who got screwed up by the World Baseball Classic: "He just didn't get to pitch the way you would in spring training. Location of the fastball has been his biggest issue. And fastball location comes with time, with work. Multiple outings in spring training is where guys get a feel for their fastball."

[Rule0001]

2 seamer *cough *cough. - For Lidge.

And btw, about Rivera. There's no other pitcher I'd want on the mound other than him in the bottom of the 9th. If he blows it, the baseball gods didn't have it in the cards.

[Sishir Chang]

Lidge getting pulled for Wheeler. Lights out is looking more and more like lights on these days. Whatever is wrong with Lidge it doesn't look like its getting better. Would moving Lidge back to set up for awhile let him improve his cofidence or would that diminish his confidence even more?

[SWTsig]

Light Up Lidge is clearly more appropriate at this point.

[bobrek]

I have one question for the Astros coaching staff. Lidge had great years in 2004 and 2005 and with the exception of the pitch to Pujols and pitch to Podsenik, had a pretty good postseason. His 2004 postseason was arguably the best ever by a reliever.

Why did the coaching staff find it necessary to have Lidge change his style to pitch out of the stretch instead of the windup with no men on base? He seemed to be pretty successful out of the windup in 2004 and 2005.

[LonghornFan]

I don't think the coaching staff had anything to do with the change. I believe it was his decision after getting lit up early in the season while pitching from the windup.

[Buck Turgidson]

"Put it this way: It has been a long time coming," he said. "I've had a lot of negative reinforcement."

Just as teammate Chad Qualls did last season, Lidge will throw every pitch from the stretch.

"All my bad pitches have been from the windup," he said.

"Almost no other reliever throws from the windup," he said. "It's just not something you practice that much. It's a different set of mechanics."

Throwing from the stretch allows Lidge to slow his body down and depend on fewer checkpoints for things such as his arm slot and shoulder action. Tall pitchers seem vulnerable to losing track of their mechanics.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/baseball/3785609.html

[bobrek]

It doesn't make sense to make a change, especially in mid-stream, when he has been so successful in the past. It's also pretty obvious that pitching out of the wind-up has not been his problem this year.

[RyanED]

I think we should make Brad Lidge pitch every game from now on. Only, he should pitch the first inning, not he last inning. If Brad Lidge can pitch the first inning OK, then let him pitch the secend inning next time, and keep gooing until Brad Lidge is the pitching the ninth inning. I also think that Roger Clemens and Chad Qualls and Brandon Backe should share the closing stuff when those guys are ready to go.

[H-Town Info]

I think we should make Brad Lidge pitch every game from now on. Only, he should pitch the first inning, not he last inning. If Brad Lidge can pitch the first inning OK, then let him pitch the secend inning next time, and keep gooing until Brad Lidge is the pitching the ninth inning. I also think that Roger Clemens and Chad Qualls and Brandon Backe should share the closing stuff when those guys are ready to go.

what r u smoking?

[Almu]

No more Lights Out Lidge.

[Saint Louis]

No more Lights Out Lidge.

I beg to differ, he is still "Lights Out". It is just that now when the game ends it is the other team winning instead of the Astros. Even with the new results everyone leaves the ballpark.

[macalu]

what r u smoking?

must be the rookie reefer.

[Sishir Chang]

I think we should make Brad Lidge pitch every game from now on. Only, he should pitch the first inning, not he last inning.

An "opener" instead of a "closer" :confused:

[RyanED]

An "opener" instead of a "closer" :confused:

Lou Pinella last year when he was the coach of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays was talking about doing this to shake things up. I think Lou Pinella was on to something. I also think that BRad Lidge could end up starting! :D :eek: :D :eek:

[Saint Louis]

Lou Pinella last year when he was the coach of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays was talking about doing this to shake things up. I think Lou Pinella was on to something. I also think that BRad Lidge could end up starting! :D :eek: :D :eek:

Sweet Lou was obvisously on crack when he said this. How else do you explain him willing taking the Devil Rays job and then staying so long.

[Surfguy]

No more Lights Out Lidge.

It's his alter ego, Light Up Lidge, currently and unfortunately.

[VesceySux]

No more Lights Out Lidge.

If you use "Lights Out" in the context of "Batter hits a monster home run and breaks a stadium light, a la Roy Hobbs in the Natural," then, yeah, it's still okay to call him that.

[JunkyardDwg]

I wouldn't say Pujols runied him. A lot of the pithcers who pithced in the WBC have been struggling. A lot of it is becase pitchers get their arm strenght in spring training. Because they didn't. Now it's catching up to them Here's a list of some of them:

WBC PITCHERS:

Bruce Chen Baltimore Panama 0-2, 8.10
Chad Cordero Washington USA 3 HRs in 7 IP
Freddy Garcia Chi. White Sox Venezuela 2-1, 7.80
Jorge Julio NY Mets Venezuela 0-1, 10.80
Sunny Kim Colorado Korea 0-0, 19.80
Esteban Loaiza Oakland Mexico 0-2, 8.59
Rodrigo Lopez Baltimore Mexico 1-1, 7.20
Oliver Perez Pittsburgh Mexico 1-2, 6.75
Jorge Sosa Atlanta Dom. Republic 0-3, 10.45
Huston Street Oakland USA 1-1, 7.94

No need to post Lidge's stats. We all know what's up.


Add Dontrelle Willis: 1-4, 6.22 ERA

[bobrek]

"Put it this way: It has been a long time coming," he said. "I've had a lot of negative reinforcement."

Just as teammate Chad Qualls did last season, Lidge will throw every pitch from the stretch.

"All my bad pitches have been from the windup," he said.

"Almost no other reliever throws from the windup," he said. "It's just not something you practice that much. It's a different set of mechanics."

Throwing from the stretch allows Lidge to slow his body down and depend on fewer checkpoints for things such as his arm slot and shoulder action. Tall pitchers seem vulnerable to losing track of their mechanics.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/baseball/3785609.html

Looks like Lidge is scrapping the stretch experiment.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3860159.html

"Lidge said he'll also quit working exclusively from the stretch position, a move he made earlier this season to simplify his delivery."

[RocketFan007]

He's pitching in the 7th with a four run lead now.

[MadMax]

From Richard Justice's blog:

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2006/05/answering_the_m_2.html

Lidge will be fine. Not to worry. If he's the biggest problem the Astros have this season, they'll win the division by 12 games.

They've discovered the mechanical flaw that has him losing control of the strike zone. It has something to do with his front shoulder and the position of his hand when the ball is released.

It's easier for me to explain - and that wasn't all that easy, was it? - that it is to fix. It gets back to muscle memory when he gets on the pound. He has heard the phrase ''Stay back'' a few hundred times the last few days and has watched hours of video of himself.

[arkoe]

That's excellent news, as long as Justice didn't make it up.

[rocketsinsider]

wow thats great news, if true that would be alot easier to correct then a psychological flaw.

[MadMax]

That's excellent news, as long as Justice didn't make it up.

yeah, that's my concern too! :D

it's always weird for me to quote richard justice!

[Buck Turgidson]

yeah, that's my concern too! :D

it's always weird for me to quote richard justice!
Nah, Garner & Lidge said as much last week...shoulder's flying open, arm drags behind, breaking balls flatten out, everything gets left up...generally location goes to sh!t.

He's looked a lot better the last couple of times out.

[nWo34Life]

Do we need to send him to the minors so he can work on developing some other pitches?

This is just f'n ridiculous! :mad:

[Blake]

He's garbage. All hitters have to do is sit on his fastball...which he can't even locate anymore

Garbage.

Helluva 2 year run

[MadMax]

where the hell were you guys when he closed out 8 in a row? the last post in this thread was May 17 until tonight. and even then it was to report that he was looking good.

[DaDakota]

where the hell were you guys when he closed out 8 in a row? the last post in this thread was May 17 until tonight. and even then it was to report that he was looking good.


Max, he has looked pretty good, but not even close to the same as last year.

I wonder what happened to his curve ball? He needs an off speed pitch IMHO.

DD

[London'sBurning]

Max, he has looked pretty good, but not even close to the same as last year.

I wonder what happened to his curve ball? He needs an off speed pitch IMHO.

DD

His curve is supposedly better than his slider, but it really gives his arm trouble for some reason.

[Groogrux]

where the hell were you guys when he closed out 8 in a row? the last post in this thread was May 17 until tonight. and even then it was to report that he was looking good.

I know you're not surprised.

[The Real Shady]

The Astros need to make a change at closer. Lidge has a 6.30 ERA in June, 4.15 ERA in May, and a 6.39 ERA in March/April. I'm sure no one on the astros staff and roster has any confidence in Lidge coming into a big game right now.

Time to go back to a closer by comity system.

[DaDakota]

His curve is supposedly better than his slider, but it really gives his arm trouble for some reason.

Well his fastball is giving the Astros....losing trouble....

DD

[Major]

The Astros need to make a change at closer. Lidge has a 6.30 ERA in June, 4.15 ERA in May, and a 6.39 ERA in March/April. I'm sure no one on the astros staff and roster has any confidence in Lidge coming into a big game right now.

Time to go back to a closer by comity system.

Of course, before yesterday, Lidge had an ERA of about 2 with 7 straight saves over the previous month (ERA of 0 in save situations). I think the Astros staff has plenty of confidence in Lidge. They are far less fickle than fans.

[The Real Shady]

Of course, before yesterday, Lidge had an ERA of about 2 with 7 straight saves over the previous month (ERA of 0 in save situations). I think the Astros staff has plenty of confidence in Lidge. They are far less fickle than fans.

Actually, if it weren't for 11 games this year Lidge would have an ERA of 0.00.

Lidge has an ERA of 3.00 this month if you exclude this last game, but you can't do that. The problem with Lidge has been consistency, and you don't have to be fickle to not have confidence in a closer with a 5.55 ERA.

[Major]

Lidge has an ERA of 3.00 this month if you exclude this last game, but you can't do that. The problem with Lidge has been consistency.

It certainly was - but the numbers I gave you were the full numbers (before yesterday) since he fixed whatever was wrong and was given the closers' job back in late May. I think the Astros are perfectly content with him going 7-for-8 in saves, and they are perfectly comfortable with him as closer.

[No Worries]

Of course, before yesterday, Lidge had an ERA of about 2 with 7 straight saves over the previous month (ERA of 0 in save situations).
Didn't blow his previous save with a wild pitch?

[bobrek]

Didn't blow his previous save with a wild pitch?

That was the first Twins game (Tuesday) and Lidge came into a tie game in the 9th when he eventually threw the wild pitch. In the Wednesday Twins game he got the save after striking out the side.

[MadMax]

Didn't blow his previous save with a wild pitch?

against who?

his last outing was against the twins. he struck out the side and earned the save.

[Smokey]

Actually, if it weren't for 11 games this year Lidge would have an ERA of 0.00.

This cracked me up.

Lidge is damaged goods. He will have flashes of greatness then revert back to choking. Thanks Pujols.

[gunn]

Lidge is completely finished as a big time closer in this league.

As soon as he walked Podsednik in the 9th, you knew he was done mentally right then and there. That is, if you didn't already know it. You could see that grand slam coming a mile away.

[No Worries]

against who?

his last outing was against the twins. he struck out the side and earned the save.
from http://www.astrosdaily.com/

The Twins temporarily took the lead in the ninth on a Brad Lidge wild pitch before Preston Wilson’s solo blast in the bottom of the frame knotted it again to force extra innings.

Tuesday Jun. 20, 2006; Minnesota 6, Houston 5 (http://sports.excite.com/mlb/box_scores.html?gid=260620118)

Lidge had a save the next game.

[MadMax]

from http://www.astrosdaily.com/
The Twins temporarily took the lead in the ninth on a Brad Lidge wild pitch before Preston Wilson’s solo blast in the bottom of the frame knotted it again to force extra innings.

Jun. 20, 2006 Minnesota 6, Houston 5 (http://sports.excite.com/mlb/box_scores.html?gid=260620118)

that's right. i didn't get to see that game, so i forgot about it.

[No Worries]

Looking at the box for the game, it appears that Lidge entered a tied game and thus it was not a save opportunity.

[Hakeem's Dream]

No, indeed it was not a save situation. He blew a no save situation. I love him to pieces but freakin' A, I bet he didn't sleep well last night.

[rrj_gamz]

RIP...

Maybe we're all being a little hard, yeah right...

This is his job...He needs to be put in the minors until he regains his confidence and stuff...

Overall, our entire bullpen stinks...we can't get into the playoffs like that...

[Burzmali]

Max:

Everytime Lidge blows a save, you will continue to see these posts. It's assumed that closers should never blow saves. Nevermind that he's been pitching well lately, that's just a blip and now he will revert back. :rolleyes:

[JunkyardDwg]

This is hilarious. This thread was dead for a good while...then Lidge has a bad outing and here we are again. How about let's wait to see how the season plays out before making a judgement on him. Check this:

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE IN THE BULLPEN RIGHT NOW I WANT PITCHING IN A SAVE SITUATION OTHER THAN LIDGE. NO ONE.

Either trade for a closer, which ain't gonna happen, or stay with Lidge. That's the only two options you got.

[No Worries]

This is hilarious. This thread was dead for a good while...then Lidge has a bad outing and here we are again. How about let's wait to see how the season plays out before making a judgement on him.
The June 20th was a blown non-save, yet no post on this thread.

An outing of Tim Tim Redding-ian proportions and the thread breaths new life.

I saw bring on Jason Hirsh and let's see what he's got.

[The Real Shady]

This is hilarious. This thread was dead for a good while...then Lidge has a bad outing and here we are again. How about let's wait to see how the season plays out before making a judgement on him.

I don't want to wait to see how the season plays out. Are we going to cruise into the playoffs with a closer that has a plus 5.00 ERA, and after he blows some playoff games we'll realize that he's done. We will have missed our opportunity because Clemens will likely retire, and Pettite may be gone as well.

We need to be proactive and not wait until it's too late with Lidge. Reduce his role in the bullpen and make him earn the closers spot again. Use a rotating closers role in the bullpen with Lidge, Wheeler, and Nieve for a month. Whoever proves to be the best make them the closer for the rest of the season. If everyone sucks make a trade.

[Hakeem's Dream]

I haven't been to my "We Support You Lidge" group I started out of fear my membership declined. We are always hard on Lidge. He has given us perfection and all of a sudden we are seeing a decline. It's hard to watch. I just hope he doesn't lose himself back down to AAA. I guess it's in the baseball gods' hands.

[Saint Louis]

This is hilarious. This thread was dead for a good while...then Lidge has a bad outing and here we are again. How about let's wait to see how the season plays out before making a judgement on him. Check this:

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE IN THE BULLPEN RIGHT NOW I WANT PITCHING IN A SAVE SITUATION OTHER THAN LIDGE. NO ONE.

Either trade for a closer, which ain't gonna happen, or stay with Lidge. That's the only two options you got.

Do the Astros go for broke again this year? Would the Braves swap Smoltz for Lidge? Smoltz returns to the closer role for the Astros and the Braves get a younger closer in hopes that a change of scenery will put him back on top.

[bobrek]

Do the Astros go for broke again this year? Would the Braves swap Smoltz for Lidge? Smoltz returns to the closer role for the Astros and the Braves get a younger closer in hopes that a change of scenery will put him back on top.

Smoltz has repeatedly said that he does not want to return to the bullpen.

[bobrek]

Looking at the box for the game, it appears that Lidge entered a tied game and thus it was not a save opportunity.

I guess you missed my response to your original question.

[No Worries]

I guess you missed my response to your original question.
It looks like both me and max missed it :( I was just kinda glad I didn't make sh*t up and call it a memory :eek:

[Hakeem's Dream]

I haven't been to my "We Support You Lidge" group I started out of fear my membership declined. We are always hard on Lidge. He has given us perfection and all of a sudden we are seeing a decline. It's hard to watch. I just hope he doesn't lose himself back down to AAA. I guess it's in the baseball gods' hands.

Although, that's not possible. I am just scared to lose him.

[JunkyardDwg]

Here's the thing...while his inflated ERA is not ideal, it's the saves that are the most important thing for a closer. And he's converted 19 of 22 saves; that's still among the best. There is no one else in the bullpen that I feel would be able to do as good of a job as he has done. Nieve is great, but I don't think he's right for the role. The only two I would consider outside of Lidge are Qualls and Wheeler; Wheels hasn't been as effective this year and we all see what Qualls does in a tight situation. I don't care how many runs he gives up as long as he gets the save and secures the win. That's the bottom line. If he starts blowing saves on a consistent basis, then yeah a change is needed. But so far he hasn't done that. There is no better option in our bullpen and theres next to zero chance of trading for a closer. We don't have as much leeway (right now) as in years past, true. But Clemens is back, hopefully he'll spark Pettite, Roy is being Roy, Backe is nearing a return. And Buchholz and Wandy are both better options right now than Zeke and Wandy were last year. Maybe if Backe comes back but doesn't have the stamina to go a whole game for awhile he can take up a set-up or closer role if a change is needed.