wouldn't it be ironic if the texans and rockets end up w/ the 1st pick of the draft..

[MykTek]

again???? ......it's just shows how we haven't improved much over the last 3 yrs in both football and basketball..... sad....

[brentdapmp]

well this whole year has not been good to us Houston fans. Texans go 2-14 and the Rockets whom most of us thought would be real contenders for the title this year don't make the playoffs, and now it is up to the Astros to at least get one Houston team into the playoffs. If they don't make it I will be a very sad man.

[Uprising]

It's been a great year as an Astros fan. Since 2000, the Stros have slowly been moving up as my favorite Houston sports team.

It's always been the Rockets till about 2 years ago.

I do still love my Rockets though.

[the futants]

i don't think "ironic" is the right word...

[CriscoKidd]

It's like rain on a wedding day. Or a pink elephant that isn't afraid of mice.

:(

[Groogrux]

i don't think "ironic" is the right word...

Don't cha think?

[texanskan]

It's been a great year as an Astros fan. Since 2000, the Stros have slowly been moving up as my favorite Houston sports team.

It's always been the Rockets till about 2 years ago.

I do still love my Rockets though.

Well it has and always will be the Rockets for me I don't just make the Astros my favorite team because they have for the first time in 45 years had playoff sucess.

The Rockets have a great owner who is commited to winning first, turning a profit second. The Astros have an owner who is about making money first and then winning second.

The Oilers were a close second behind the Rockets but right now the Texans are probally just a little ahead of the stros for me because they have only been around for five years now.

As far as the picks the Rockets have a 50-60 win team when healthy it's just been a fluke year so I would say they have improved. Also when Yao was drafted we were not that bad we did "win" the draft lotto.

The Texans improved every year until last season and now this year I fully expect us to win at least 8 games and in 07 make the playoffs.

Go Rockets, Texans and Stros and lets hope none of our three teams ever have the number one pick again!

[jopatmc]

What would be ironic is if the Astros won the World Series and then the Rockets came back to win a championship in 2007 while the Texans fought for a playoff spot.

[Tb-Cain]

i don't think "ironic" is the right word...
i was thinking "poetic justice" after the year we've endured.

[Major]

The Rockets have a great owner who is commited to winning first, turning a profit second. The Astros have an owner who is about making money first and then winning second.


It's ironic that the owner with the really expensive seats and lottery bound team is considered to be the one committed to winning, while the one with reasonably priced seats that actually wins is blamed for being more interested in making money.

[msn]

The Rockets have a great owner who is commited to winning first, turning a profit second. The Astros have an owner who is about making money first and then winning second.
BS. If MLB had a salary cap and the NBA did not, whiny Houston sports fans would be saying the exact opposite. Each owner is doing a damn fine job within the constraints of his environment, but comparing the two is very much an apples and oranges fallacy.

[wesnesked]

What if Houston is now under the Astros curse! Nothing good has happened since the stros making it to the world series. It indeed seems that Houston has sold its winning sports future for a world series apperance. Just look at the facts:

Before WS : Texans on the verge of going into the playoffs
After WS: 2-14 and wost team in football

Before WS: Rockets have two of the best young players in the NBA and look to be a Western Confrence powerhouse for years to come.
After WS: Season riddled with injuries and another lottery apperance.

Just bad luck? or the Curse of the Stros!

[Major]

Before WS : Texans on the verge of going into the playoffs


7-9, 11th best team in a 16 team conference where 6 teams make the playoffs is the verge of going to the playoffs?

[pgabriel]

i don't think "ironic" is the right word...


no kidding, one franchise coming off its best season in about 7, and the other in development stage but was still showing a tracking record for improvement in its second and third year.

its actually kind of "s$itty" that these franchises have slipped.

[texanskan]

BS. If MLB had a salary cap and the NBA did not, whiny Houston sports fans would be saying the exact opposite. Each owner is doing a damn fine job within the constraints of his environment, but comparing the two is very much an apples and oranges fallacy.

Why did Drayton buy the Astros if he was so worried about the bottom line?

I get pissed off when we build them a new stadium and every single season all the tickets go up as well as consessions.

Look he lucked out we had a great team in place as far as scouting and player development.

Drayton did not want to give the unit his money if he did we would have been world series champs. He playes stupid games when it comes to free agents.

I can't belive how this guy has scamed everyone in this city to feel sorry for him or take his side on all the teams moves.

Baseball should be way more affordible than other sports, there are a 162 games. Mark my word when the Astros real off two or three non playoff years the fans will not go.

I don't know about yall but I am scared as hell with Roy o's contract year coming up.

FYI no one would have the opportunity to sign Clemens if Drayton would of just offered him arbitration.

[Groogrux]

I don't know about yall but I am scared as hell with Roy o's contract year coming up.

Yeah, Drayton never takes care of his players. Remember when Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Lance Berkman, Richard Hidalgo, and Billy Wagner all left in free agency? All because of Drayton's cheap ass! Roy's as good as gone. :mad:

Look he lucked out we had a great team in place as far as scouting and player development.

I also remember how awesome we were before Drayton bought the team. I'd much rather go back to the days of 2 playoff appearances in 35 years. Screw this whole six appearances in 13. That sucks.

[Buck Turgidson]

Drayton did not want to give the unit his money
You are full of sh!t here. Or maybe it's shinola, not that you'd know the difference.

Criticize all you want, just don't do it with non-factual b.s. from 8 years ago.

[JamesC]

Well they both got the 1st pick in the 2002 draft, maybe we can hope lightning strikes twice.

[brentdapmp]

^^I agree. The reason we didn't resign Randy was that he didn't want to be here, and he let it be known. If he would have had a desire to pitch here in Houston I am sure we would have found a way to make it happen. Fact is the only big name player that the Astros have let go in FA in a long while is Beltran and this franchise is better off for letting him go. And no need to worry Roy is not going anywhere.

[msn]

Why did Drayton buy the Astros if he was so worried about the bottom line?
Show me an owner who *isn't* concerned about the bottom line. It's a business. Repeat it several times: It's a business..

Even Steinbrenner lets guys go based on cost.

I get pissed off when we build them a new stadium and every single season all the tickets go up as well as consessions.
Were you pissed when they went up at the Dome, too?

Look he lucked out we had a great team in place as far as scouting and player development.
You don't think he knew that going in? Additionally, who hired Gerry Hunsicker? How about Tim Purpura? Nah, it was dumb luck.

Drayton did not want to give the unit his money
Show me a link. He offered the Unit nearly as much money, but it was *quite* well documented that Unit wanted to pitch in Arizona.

if he did we would have been world series champs.
Certainly! I mean, it worked in '98, of course it would have worked in '99, right?!?

I can't belive how this guy has scamed everyone in this city to feel sorry for him or take his side on all the teams moves.
Thanks for the insult, but I have not been "scammed". Just because I do not share your opinion does not mean I have taken leave of my sense of reason.

Baseball should be way more affordible than other sports, there are a 162 games.
You mean it's not?? Can you help me get my entire family into a Texans game for $35? That would ROCK!!!!

Mark my word when the Astros real off two or three non playoff years the fans will not go.
Exactly true. And also true of the Rangers, Yankees, Diamondbacks, Phillies, Mets, everyone but the sCrubs. Nothing to do with who the owner is, everything to do with whether or not the team is winning.

I don't know about yall but I am scared as hell with Roy o's contract year coming up.
Damn straight. I mean, after he screwed up with Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Hidalgo, Wagner, etc. I'm surprised we can keep *any* of our up-and-coming stars around here.

FYI no one would have the opportunity to sign Clemens if Drayton would of just offered him arbitration.
Not completely accurate. Rocket could have turned the Astros down, and we would have lost out on our chances on 8 January.

But never mind me and the facts I've presented, Drayton's a cheapscate and I'm just being "duped" by some mastermind brainwashing scheme.

[MadMax]

msn --

you said $35 to get in. try this...i have two boys and my wife. if we went and sat in the cheap seats we'd get in for $15. its $1 for children...$7 for adults...and because the younger is not yet 2 years old, he gets in free.

$15. 4 people in the game. 3 tickets. i can pay to park at reliant for $15.

[pgabriel]

roy o got a bulldozer.

[msn]

roy o got a bulldozer.
You know, farm equipment signing bonuses could probably be a lot cheaper than cash signing bonuses!

[Nice Rollin]

how would it be ironic?

[My Lund]

What if Houston is now under the Astros curse! Nothing good has happened since the stros making it to the world series. It indeed seems that Houston has sold its winning sports future for a world series apperance. Just look at the facts:

Before WS : Texans on the verge of going into the playoffs
After WS: 2-14 and wost team in football

Before WS: Rockets have two of the best young players in the NBA and look to be a Western Confrence powerhouse for years to come.
After WS: Season riddled with injuries and another lottery apperance.

Just bad luck? or the Curse of the Stros!

Man for a moment I thought you were a Boston Red Sox fan. There are no such things as curses. The Astros had a great season last year. Would you be saying the same thing if the Rockets won the WCF and the astros and texans tanked ? Injuries happen in sports all the time. This Rockets season was an anomaly I am sure they will bounce back next year and be the team we all want them to be. Dont blame it on the Astros!!

[DieHard Rocket]

The initial post in this thread makes absolutely no sense. This place has gone mad. The Texans did take a step back last year...the Rockets, on the other hand, are light years ahead of where they were 3 years ago (not based on record). We went from an overated "superstar" PG that can't play halfcourt offense and a SG that didn't fit with him to a top 5 NBA player in Mcgrady with Yao about to enter his prime. In the long run, the '05-'06 season is going to have an asterisk(sp?) next to it, IMO.

The Astros have definitely been the city's favorite for the last few years, and it'll probably stay that way until the Texans really establish themselves. Unfortunately, I think NBA popularity has hit a low, so the Rockets may be 3rd on the list until it gets to playoff time.

[texanskan]

The Unit wanted 4 years Drayton would only offer 3.

Randy said over and over that he loved his time here period.

As far as sitting in the upper deck for 7 bucks well thats great I personally don't want to sit up there but I will give them credit for keeping it (at least the tickets affordable in the upper deck)

As far as Clemens I hate that attention seeking jerk but I certainly don't want to lose him and the pressure of public opinion would have been put on Clemens if the Astros offered him arbitration. He will probally come back and Drayton will end up looking good.

The Astros low balled Kyle (as a free agent) they traded Hampton because they did not want to pay him as a free agent or at that point extend him. The deal with Pettitte (the hometown discount) almost fell apart because Drayton "did not like the wording of the contract" The blockbuster trade with San Diego was a cost saving move and I can go on and on. Not to mention all the potential free agents that we could of signed that we did not and then we had to give up young talent in the middle of the season to swing a trade for a player of similar stature that we could of had as a free agent.

Jeff Kent we could of kept it was a team option.

Billy Wagner got traded because he spoke the truth about Drayton. Do you think we could of used him in the 2004 playoffs in the bullpen instead of say Dan Micelli?

My point is valid, Gerry Huntsicker and his staff is the reason we have had so much sucess not Drayton.

If he was willing to go that extra mile like Les is than I think we would be champions!

[pgabriel]

The initial post in this thread makes absolutely no sense. This place has gone mad. The Texans did take a step back last year...the Rockets, on the other hand, are light years ahead of where they were 3 years ago (not based on record). We went from an overated "superstar" PG that can't play halfcourt offense and a SG that didn't fit with him to a top 5 NBA player in Mcgrady with Yao about to enter his prime. In the long run, the '05-'06 season is going to have an asterisk(sp?) next to it, IMO.

.

its amazing how many talk about mcgrady like he doesn't have a back problem. if mcgrady is cured 100%, yeah the rockets are in great shape, if he's not, they are screwed. and no one has any idea what the situation will be.

[texanskan]

[QUOTE=msn]Show me an owner who *isn't* concerned about the bottom line. It's a business. Repeat it several times: It's a business..

Even Steinbrenner lets guys go based on cost.

He signs free agents!

Were you pissed when they went up at the Dome, too?

What does that have to do with the current burdon on tax payers MMP, I am all for the new stadiums but do not raise prices each year over the rate of inflation.

You don't think he knew that going in? Additionally, who hired Gerry Hunsicker? How about Tim Purpura? Nah, it was dumb luck.

Hunsicker was hired by Tal Smith who was allready with the club, the scouting was in place.

Show me a link. He offered the Unit nearly as much money, but it was *quite* well documented that Unit wanted to pitch in Arizona.

Sorry I don't have a link from 98 but he repeatedly said he wanted to pitch here and the sticking point was a forth year that Drayton would not pay for.

Certainly! I mean, it worked in '98, of course it would have worked in '99, right?!?

Your right we got beat by Kevin Brown who was on fire but your gonna tell me our odds over the next four years would not have dramaticlly improved.

Thanks for the insult, but I have not been "scammed". Just because I do not share your opinion does not mean I have taken leave of my sense of reason.

Ok fair enough your opinion I just think he is full of crap when he speaks.

You mean it's not?? Can you help me get my entire family into a Texans game for $35? That would ROCK!!!!

No there are only 8 home games compared to 81 you do the math. the cheapest seats at the Texans are $35 that does not sound like ten times more than $7 to me. Thats right ten times more because the Astros play ten times as many games which means that the games are less important.

Not completely accurate. Rocket could have turned the Astros down, and we would have lost out on our chances on 8 January.

See above post about clemens.

[Groogrux]

Sorry man, but you are just flat-out wrong about Randy Johnson. Everyone knew from the second we traded for him that it was going to be a rental situation.

Care to discuss how he let Berkman, Biggio, Bagwell, Hidalgo, Wagner, et al. get away in free agency as well? And his lowball offer for Kile? $1 million less than Colorado's.

Hampton was not traded for contract reasons either. Ask Biggio's wife why he was traded (I think that's the right player).

[msn]

The Unit wanted 4 years Drayton would only offer 3.

Randy said over and over that he loved his time here period.
Randy said over and over that he wanted to pitch in LA, Anaheim, or Phoenix to be close to home. I don't have to use "period" to somehow underscore my point, because I'm right.

The Astros low balled Kyle (as a free agent)
$6 million per is "lowballed" for a guy who had ONE good season? OK.

they traded Hampton because they did not want to pay him as a free agent or at that point extend him.
They traded Hampton because he informed them he would not return after the 2000 season. They traded him so they could get *something* instead of nothing in the deal. Did you like having OD in front of Wagner?

The deal with Pettitte (the hometown discount) almost fell apart because Drayton "did not like the wording of the contract"
Not aware of the story here, but based on your track record above, as far as the lack of accuracy, the burden of proof is on you.

The blockbuster trade with San Diego was a cost saving move
Bringing DBell over Cammy was to save money?

and I can go on and on.
Oh, but please do. I'm still waiting for an example that's accurate.

Not to mention all the potential free agents that we could of signed that we did not and then we had to give up young talent in the middle of the season to swing a trade for a player of similar stature that we could of had as a free agent.
Why don't you mention some specifically, and how it would have worked.

Jeff Kent we could of kept it was a team option.
Where does he play? Lane replaced him in the lineup. Compare their numbers and you tell me if it was a good move. Kent's money helped pay Clemens $18 million.

BTW, it's not "could of", it's "could have", or at least "could've".

Billy Wagner got traded because he spoke the truth about Drayton. Do you think we could of used him in the 2004 playoffs in the bullpen instead of say Dan Micelli?
Wags would have pitched Miceli's innings? I think our closer did a pretty fine job in '04.

My point is valid,
I respect your opinion and your right to have one, but I disagree. I believe your point is completely unsupported by the facts.

Gerry Huntsicker and his staff is the reason we have had so much sucess not Drayton.
Of course Hunsicker and staff are the hugest part of the success! And Drayton hired him. And Drayton helped that staff wisely spend. So, Drayton has very much been a part of it. McMullen had some pretty good GM talent as well, but things didn't go nearly as well. Perhaps you don't remember those days.

If he was willing to go that extra mile like Les is than I think we would be champions!What extra mile? Les has a SALARY CAP! Every team in the NBA spends nearly the SAME amount of money!!! How on earth can you compare the two? Do you not see this amazing disparity between the two scenarios?? Additionally, as someone pointed out, the Astros have won while the Rox are losing!! We just went to the WS for cryin' out loud?

I'll say it again (because I'm right): both owners have done a damn fine job within their respective constraints.

[MadMax]

texans:

1. big unit never ever never said he wanted to pitch in houston again. he ultimately said arizona was home...and that's where he wanted to be;

2. every team in MLB raised prices over the same period of time. you can't single drayton out on that one. almost all of those owners play in parks that include some level of public financing...most employ public financing which is far more burdensome than the hotel occupancy/rental car taxes that financed MMP;

3. drayton has signed free agents and traded for players. he's also kept key components and paid lots of money to do it. their payroll is 8th in the league right now, if i remember correctly, at about $94 million. if they end up coming to terms with Roger, that payroll will likely go over $100 million;

4. Drayton bought the astros in 1992. he hired Tal Smith in 1994. Tal was not with the team when Drayton bought the team. he hired him and immediately gave him the position he still occupies today. he also hired Tim...and Gerry;

5. the Astros are a fantastic organization. they have not always been that way. they have brought in the sorts of quality players that have allowed them to be competitive. they have brought in the scouts and coaches at lower levels to fully develop talent. they are, without a doubt, among the best organizations in all of MLB. and they've been recognized as such. none of that was the case under previous ownership with this franchise.

[Rocket Rowdie]

Look guys, I don't know about you, but I won't give a **** if the Rox suck for a year IF the 'stros win the Series. Sure it will suck, hard, but it's just the sports gods way of evening out things (God must be from Boston, though).

[msn]

He (Les) signs free agents!
LOL!!! Clemens, Pettitte, Wilson, Kent, and others all say hi.

What does (the Dome) have to do with the current burdon on tax payers MMP, I am all for the new stadiums but do not raise prices each year over the rate of inflation.
If you weren't angry when they went up at the Dome, it's disingenuous to be angry now. That's what it has to do with it. And btw, if you are a resident of Harris county, there is NO TAX BURDEN on you for the stadium.

Hunsicker was hired by Tal Smith who was allready with the club, the scouting was in place.
The scouting was totally redone by Hunsicker, who was hired by Smith AND McLane.

Sorry I don't have a link from 98 but he repeatedly said he wanted to pitch here and the sticking point was a forth year that Drayton would not pay for.
As others have all pointed out, you're dead wrong on this one.

Ok fair enough your opinion I just think he is full of crap when he speaks.
So you just dislike him. That's your entitlement, but his track record speaks for itself.

No there are only 8 home games compared to 81 you do the math. the cheapest seats at the Texans are $35 that does not sound like ten times more than $7 to me. Thats right ten times more because the Astros play ten times as many games which means that the games are less important.
Now, this point is just stupid. I guess since the importance of the game is 10% that the cost of running the venue also goes down by 90%, right?

[texanskan]

Sorry man, but you are just flat-out wrong about Randy Johnson. Everyone knew from the second we traded for him that it was going to be a rental situation.

Care to discuss how he let Berkman, Biggio, Bagwell, Hidalgo, Wagner, et al. get away in free agency as well? And his lowball offer for Kile? $1 million less than Colorado's.

Hampton was not traded for contract reasons either. Ask Biggio's wife why he was traded (I think that's the right player).

I will give the Astros credit for keeping most of there players that they develop.

As far as Hampton banging Biggio's wife who cares tell those guys to be real men and figure it out.

Yes yes yes the unit wanted to go to one of those teams and that's why Seattle traded him at the deadline but after his time here he wanted to stay and that's a fact.

If you belive a bullpen with wagner in 2004(no matter what his role was) would not have gotten us to the world series you are crazy. Garner kept putting that fat ass Micelli out there and he kept blowing games.

I was in Atlanta for games one and two last year and I told those braves fans that the game was over when that fat loser came in.

[Buck Turgidson]

Yawn.

[cuttino]

If the Rockets get the #1 pick, I hope they pick Vince Young.

[msn]

after his time here he wanted to stay and that's a fact.
If it's such a fact, then prove it. The burden of proof is on you, my friend. He said all kinds of nice things about the clubhouse and esp. Ausmus, but he also said he wanted to play at home. Everyone but you remembers this, so prove it. No excuses--prove it.

If you belive a bullpen with wagner in 2004(no matter what his role was) would not have gotten us to the world series you are crazy.
Right, I'm crazy. Or perhaps I remember Wagner's postseason record.

[MadMax]

I will give the Astros credit for keeping most of there players that they develop.

As far as Hampton banging Biggio's wife who cares tell those guys to be real men and figure it out.

Yes yes yes the unit wanted to go to one of those teams and that's why Seattle traded him at the deadline but after his time here he wanted to stay and that's a fact.

If you belive a bullpen with wagner in 2004(no matter what his role was) would not have gotten us to the world series you are crazy. Garner kept putting that fat ass Micelli out there and he kept blowing games.

I was in Atlanta for games one and two last year and I told those braves fans that the game was over when that fat loser came in.

1. the unit thing is NOT a fact no matter how many times you say it. try this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/1998/11/30/johnson_dbacks/

Johnson, who lives in nearby Paradise Valley, chose the Diamondbacks over the Anaheim Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers and Texas Rangers because he wants to play close to home and he thinks Arizona is making moves to quickly become a contender.

"We tried to weigh all the factors -- how competitive the team would be in the future, where his family would be comfortable," said Johnson's agent Barry Meister. "Money was a non-factor because everything was pretty comparable. He made the decision late, late, late last night, slept on it, still felt that way in the morning, and we called the other clubs."


2. wagner would not have accepted any role with the astros OTHER than closer. the astros weren't gonna pay for that when they already had a reasonable substitute. that's smart.

3. dan micelli sucked in the playoffs. so did wagner, frankly. micelli wasn't the closer, however. he appeared in 74 regular season games and had a 3.54 ERA that season. he failed to perform in the playoffs...agreed. but again...so did wagner. he's 0-4 in 5 post-season games with a 7.71 ERA. by the way..it was St. Louis who shelled Micelli...not Atlanta.

[texanskan]

The bottom line is Drayton has done enough to turn the Astros into a winner which they were not when he bought the club so he gets credit there but I belive in my heart of hearts that he has not gone as far as he needed too for us "to be champions" as he always says.

Yes this is a business but you have a responsability to the city when you own a sports team and the facts are he bought the Astros plus hotels in the area for 90mil and now they are worth in the hundreds of millions.

At the same time his porfolio has jumped to over 1.3 billion.

Maybe it's just me but I really got sick of hearing him bitch about losing money and now that he is making money hand over fist he tries to spin it like he is hurting.

Anyway Go Texans, Rockets, Astros and 1836!

[Blatz]

If it's such a fact, then prove it. The burden of proof is on you, my friend. He said all kinds of nice things about the clubhouse and esp. Ausmus, but he also said he wanted to play at home. Everyone but you remembers this, so prove it. No excuses--prove it...

It was probably some source familiar with Roger Clemens thinking.

[msn]

Another factoid for all you Drayton bashers:

The Astros currently have the 11th largest media market among Major League cities, and as such are referred to as a "medium market". The media market is where you get your revenue. It would follow, then, that the Astros should be 11th in payroll size.

The Astros currently have the 8th largest payroll.

So, Drayton is managing his organization's money so well that they outperform their market size according to payroll size.

But nah, he's a cheapscate.

[texanskan]

1. the unit thing is NOT a fact no matter how many times you say it. try this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/news/1998/11/30/johnson_dbacks/

Johnson, who lives in nearby Paradise Valley, chose the Diamondbacks over the Anaheim Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers and Texas Rangers because he wants to play close to home and he thinks Arizona is making moves to quickly become a contender.

"We tried to weigh all the factors -- how competitive the team would be in the future, where his family would be comfortable," said Johnson's agent Barry Meister. "Money was a non-factor because everything was pretty comparable. He made the decision late, late, late last night, slept on it, still felt that way in the morning, and we called the other clubs."


2. wagner would not have accepted any role with the astros OTHER than closer. the astros weren't gonna pay for that when they already had a reasonable substitute. that's smart.

3. dan micelli sucked in the playoffs. so did wagner, frankly. micelli wasn't the closer, however. he appeared in 74 regular season games and had a 3.54 ERA that season. he failed to perform in the playoffs...agreed. but again...so did wagner. he's 0-4 in 5 post-season games with a 7.71 ERA. by the way..it was St. Louis who shelled Micelli...not Atlanta.

Yeah his choice was easy when the Astros droped out. Do you see where it said the Astros droped out when they learned it was gonna be a 4 year deal.

Well it looked ok without Wagner until we had to give up Dotel for Beltran, I don't know about you but I would have liked to have both Lidge and Wagner in the rotation in those playoffs,

Fat Micelli gave up a walk off to Furcall in game two vs Atlanta if we win that game our pitching is set for the St Louis series.

[leroy420]

I was in Atlanta for games one and two last year and I told those braves fans that the game was over when that fat loser came in.

Good job there. You were right on, again. The Braves went on to win...

Wait...

The Braves went on to win NOTHING!

You really should stop now. You're just going to continue to get toasted (even if you don't realize it's happening).

[Major]

If he was willing to go that extra mile like Les is than I think we would be champions!

Yup, because that has worked out oh so well for Les... He won a championship in his first two years as owner, and its been downhill ever since. And, of course, he took those wins and raised ticket prices to be amongst the highest in the nation, but apparently, he gets a free pass for that.

[MadMax]

Yup, because that has worked out oh so well for Les... He won a championship in his first two years as owner, and its been downhill ever since. And, of course, he took those wins and raised ticket prices to be amongst the highest in the nation, but apparently, he gets a free pass for that.

and Les did that all with talent that was already assembled... :)

[texanskan]

Another factoid for all you Drayton bashers:

The Astros currently have the 11th largest media market among Major League cities, and as such are referred to as a "medium market". The media market is where you get your revenue. It would follow, then, that the Astros should be 11th in payroll size.

The Astros currently have the 8th largest payroll.

So, Drayton is managing his organization's money so well that they outperform their market size according to payroll size.

But nah, he's a cheapscate.

The Astros have the eight highest payroll because they do something called backloading contracts which has caught up with them this year with the final year for Pettite and Bagwell.

The Astros have a brand new 18 million dollar local tv deal I bet that does not rank 11th. BTW those stats are misleading because all the northeast cities are bunched together.

[texanskan]

Yup, because that has worked out oh so well for Les... He won a championship in his first two years as owner, and its been downhill ever since. And, of course, he took those wins and raised ticket prices to be amongst the highest in the nation, but apparently, he gets a free pass for that.

Of course Les had made mistakes but he brought in guys like Barkley and Pippen to win. Yes they backfired but as a fan I like the effort,

Eddie Griffen has turned out to be one of if not the worst deals in Rockets history but at the time it looked like we were making a play at one of the best prospects in years.

[msn]

Of course Les had made mistakes but he brought in guys like Barkley and Pippen to win. Yes they backfired but as a fan I like the effort,
Yet you refuse to acknowledge the ever-increasing list of FAs the Astros sign, pointing instead to 6 and 8 year old examples with bad facts and trades which you misunderstand?

Classic. You're entitled to your unsupported and illogical opinion.

[msn]

The Astros have the eight highest payroll because they do something called backloading contracts which has caught up with them this year with the final year for Pettite and Bagwell.
I checked this out--
2005 -- 12
2004 -- 12
2003 -- 14
2002 -- 14
--and it appears to be accurate. Good point.

The Astros have a brand new 18 million dollar local tv deal I bet that does not rank 11th. BTW those stats are misleading because all the northeast cities are bunched together.
The amount of TV revenue and the size of the media market are completely unrelated. Additionally, the numbers are not skewed by the proximity of other cities as you suggest. However, this is all moot based on your point above.

[MadMax]

Yeah his choice was easy when the Astros droped out. Do you see where it said the Astros droped out when they learned it was gonna be a 4 year deal.

Well it looked ok without Wagner until we had to give up Dotel for Beltran, I don't know about you but I would have liked to have both Lidge and Wagner in the rotation in those playoffs,

Fat Micelli gave up a walk off to Furcall in game two vs Atlanta if we win that game our pitching is set for the St Louis series.

1. you're gonna have to show me something that supports the notion that Randy wanted to be here. because all i saw over and over again was how he wanted to pitch closer to home.

2. i'd like to have Jim Thome as my backup 2B. i'd like to have omar vizquel as my backup SS. i'd like to have rolen to back up ensberg, or vice versa. but it's not a smart use of resources to do that. NYY don't have a backup closer for rivera. ATL doesn't have a kick-ass back up for Chipper. Wagner wrote his ticket out of town when he criticized the organization from top to bottom at the last game of the 2003 season. He sucked in the playoffs, as well. I have no faith that he would have performed any better than he had in the past...

[bobrek]

...Fat Micelli gave up a walk off to Furcall in game two vs Atlanta if we win that game our pitching is set for the St Louis series.

So does that mean you are one of those people who think if something different happens in the past that everything would have happened exactly the same when the event changes?

Do you think the other games would have played out EXACTLY THE SAME if the Astros had won game 2?

We have no way of dealing with speculation. We can deal in facts. The fact is the Astros won the NLDS in 2004 against the Braves. Had ANYTHING happened differently in any one of those games, we have no idea what would have happened.

If the Astros could have gotten more than FOUR hits in 11 innings, it may have never come down to Miceli. Perhaps McLane should have opened up the wallet and traded for a hitter during that year. Oh wait, I forgot about Beltran.

[MadMax]

Of course Les had made mistakes but he brought in guys like Barkley and Pippen to win. Yes they backfired but as a fan I like the effort,

Eddie Griffen has turned out to be one of if not the worst deals in Rockets history but at the time it looked like we were making a play at one of the best prospects in years.


i think you're past the statute of limitations on all of these. we traded for pippen in 99...we traded for barkley in 96. you're talking about transactions that occurred 7 years ago.

as for eddie griffin..that's not signing a big name free agent...that's taking a gamble on a draft day trade. not the same thing. particularly not in terms of expense to the franchise.

[Buck Turgidson]

I have no faith that he would have performed any better than he had in the past...
And he wouldn't have been in Philly to serve up game-ending HR's in September.

[MadMax]

And he wouldn't have been in Philly to serve up game-ending HR's in September.

excellent point. he choked there, too.

[texanskan]

1. you're gonna have to show me something that supports the notion that Randy wanted to be here. because all i saw over and over again was how he wanted to pitch closer to home.

2. i'd like to have Jim Thome as my backup 2B. i'd like to have omar vizquel as my backup SS. i'd like to have rolen to back up ensberg, or vice versa. but it's not a smart use of resources to do that. NYY don't have a backup closer for rivera. ATL doesn't have a kick-ass back up for Chipper. Wagner wrote his ticket out of town when he criticized the organization from top to bottom at the last game of the 2003 season. He sucked in the playoffs, as well. I have no faith that he would have performed any better than he had in the past...

Dude Lidge was our seventh inning guy then we traded Wagner and he became our eight inning/set up guy. Then we traded Dotel and he was the closer. If we never got rid of Billy than he would of been the closer and Lidge would of moved up to the set up roll after the dotel trade.

FYI Thome has never played second.

As far as the unit I will try to find something.

[MadMax]

Dude Lidge was our seventh inning guy then we traded Wagner and he became our eight inning/set up guy. Then we traded Dotel and he was the closer. If we never got rid of Billy than he would of been the closer and Lidge would of moved up to the set up roll after the dotel trade.

FYI Thome has never played second.

As far as the unit I will try to find something.

typo on Thome...i meant 1B. but you get my point, anyway.

i'm saying bullpen was a position of strength. i'm saying Wagner had a big mouth and talked his way out of town. i'm saying i have zero faith in billy wagner in any important game. i'm saying trading his ass for the guy we have starting tonight turned out pretty well.

[texanskan]

So does that mean you are one of those people who think if something different happens in the past that everything would have happened exactly the same when the event changes?

Do you think the other games would have played out EXACTLY THE SAME if the Astros had won game 2?

We have no way of dealing with speculation. We can deal in facts. The fact is the Astros won the NLDS in 2004 against the Braves. Had ANYTHING happened differently in any one of those games, we have no idea what would have happened.

If the Astros could have gotten more than FOUR hits in 11 innings, it may have never come down to Miceli. Perhaps McLane should have opened up the wallet and traded for a hitter during that year. Oh wait, I forgot about Beltran.

Pete Monroe would not have started two LCS games

[texanskan]

i think you're past the statute of limitations on all of these. we traded for pippen in 99...we traded for barkley in 96. you're talking about transactions that occurred 7 years ago.

as for eddie griffin..that's not signing a big name free agent...that's taking a gamble on a draft day trade. not the same thing. particularly not in terms of expense to the franchise.

Your right because no free agent was as good as T-MAC that's why he pulled off that deal.

Also he rolled the dice on Francis on draft day.

[msn]

Pete Monroe would not have started two LCS games
Did you get the point of the post to which you replied?? Geez louise. Not only would Pete Munro have not started two LCS games, perhaps *no Astro* would have started LCS games. One change affects everything else subsequent. In other words, the "what if" game is completely fallacious and invalid in terms of proving an argument. Especially a weak one.

[jopatmc]

Speaking of "gas can" Micelli:

Were my eyes deceiving me or did I see that he is still in the bigs "saving" games for somebody?

[MadMax]

Your right because no free agent was as good as T-MAC that's why he pulled off that deal.

Also he rolled the dice on Francis on draft day.


T-Mac was huge. i'll give you that.

look...the proof is in the pudding between these two franchises right now. it's not close. the astros have been to the playoffs 6 times in the past 9 seasons...in a sport that only allows in about 26% of its teams into the playoffs each season. in basketball, the rockets have made the playoffs once in the past 5 seasons. a sport that allows more teams in the playoffs than it sends home. one team is a year removed from a league championship. the other hasn't won a playoff series since 1997.

[Buck Turgidson]

It's quite probable that the Astros don't make the playoffs in '04 without Dan Micelli.

[msn]

It's quite probable that the Astros don't make the playoffs in '04 without Dan Micelli.
Precisely. Everyone always points at Miceli's blown games in the playoffs and bitches and moans, but dude was nails when the Astros needed him during the regular season.

[bobrek]

Pete Monroe would not have started two LCS games

You are still assuming that everything would have transpired the EXACT SAME WAY if the Astros would have won game 2. For all we know, the Braves might have won games 3 and 4 (and maybe 5 for that matter). We'll never know.

And as long as you are pointing out typos, the Astros never had a pitcher named Pete Monroe.

[Major]

Of course Les had made mistakes but he brought in guys like Barkley and Pippen to win. Yes they backfired but as a fan I like the effort,


As a fan, I prefer a smart owner who knows how to manage and build a team. The Spurs and Pistons don't go around constantly making big trades every year to win. They built their teams over time. Perhaps what you see as "effort" is not necessarily the way to win.

[texanskan]

T-Mac was huge. i'll give you that.

look...the proof is in the pudding between these two franchises right now. it's not close. the astros have been to the playoffs 6 times in the past 9 seasons...in a sport that only allows in about 26% of its teams into the playoffs each season. in basketball, the rockets have made the playoffs once in the past 5 seasons. a sport that allows more teams in the playoffs than it sends home. one team is a year removed from a league championship. the other hasn't won a playoff series since 1997.

Hey I can not argue with those numbers but the fact is with a healthy T-MAC and Yao the rockets are much closer to winning a nba title than the Astros are to wining a world series.

I love the Astros but we won 89 games in a watered down NL and if we would of lost lets say two more games we would of not been in the playoffs.

This year I think we have a chance but I would not bank on it.

As far as the Rockets I think we will rebound and win 55-60 games next year.

Your right percentage wise it is harder to make the playoffs in baseball but come on how many teams in baseball can really compete?

[Major]

Did you get the point of the post to which you replied?? Geez louise. Not only would Pete Munro have not started two LCS games, perhaps *no Astro* would have started LCS games. One change affects everything else subsequent. In other words, the "what if" game is completely fallacious and invalid in terms of proving an argument. Especially a weak one.

Perhaps if Wagner was on that team, he could have lost some games and ended our season, just as he did when we made the playoffs with him. But of course, in fantasy land, he would have been perfect and we would have won it all.

[jopatmc]

Precisely. Everyone always points at Miceli's blown games in the playoffs and bitches and moans, but dude was nails when the Astros needed him during the regular season.


6-wins
6-losses
2 saves
3.59 ERA

yeah, studly.

We won't even discuss the cannon moon shots off him in the playoffs that everybody sitting in the stadium and watching on television could see coming a mile away. :mad:

[texanskan]

As a fan, I prefer a smart owner who knows how to manage and build a team. The Spurs and Pistons don't go around constantly making big trades every year to win. They built their teams over time. Perhaps what you see as "effort" is not necessarily the way to win.

I agree with that point, but in fairness in sports you need to strike while the iron is hot and he thought we would win a title in those years.

As far as the draft day deals Les was trying to land impact players because ours were aging and he wanted impact guys to come in.

Now we have two stud players all we have to do is put good roll players around them. I look for big things from the rockets over the next five years.

[Major]

Now we have two stud players all we have to do is put good roll players around them. I look for big things from the rockets over the next five years.

While you're waiting for those things to happen in the future for the Rockets, the rest of us are watching big things from the Astros and their greedy owner who puts a winning product on the field.

[bobrek]

6-wins
6-losses
2 saves
3.59 ERA

yeah, studly.

We won't even discuss the cannon moon shots off him in the playoffs that everybody sitting in the stadium and watching on television could see coming a mile away. :mad:

September 2004 - 11 games, 9 IP, 14Ks, 0 (ZERO) earned runs

[jopatmc]

September 2004 - 11 games, 9 IP, 14Ks, 0 (ZERO) earned runs

He gave it all back in October and then some.

[Buck Turgidson]

Your right percentage wise it is harder to make the playoffs in baseball but come on how many teams in baseball can really compete?
The NL has had 8 different champions the past 8 seasons.

5 different teams have won the World Series the past 5 seasons.

In the past 10 years, 6 different teams have won the World Series. 13 different teams have participated. In the NBA over the past 10 seasons, there have been 4 different champions & 10 participants. (NFL is 7 & 14).

[texanskan]

While you're waiting for those things to happen in the future for the Rockets, the rest of us are watching big things from the Astros and their greedy owner who puts a winning product on the field.

Don't call me out I watch ever second of every Astros, Rockets and Texans game I also never missed an Oilers game back in the day,

I have full season tickets for the Texans and Rockets and I attend over 50 astros games a year and the thirty or so astros games I miss in person I watch every second on tv.

I bet you don't have that dedication, were you still watching the Astros play out the schedual during all those terrible years in the late 80's and early 90's? Are you watching every second of the Rockets now even though the season is over? Well I have and I am now and if you do too than thats cool I'll listen to you and your opinions but if not then take your bandwagon ass home.

[texanskan]

Here is your beloved astros owner at work.

One of many stories that you never hear about.

go to www.chron.com and then search Richard Justic's article Mclane let the big one get away.

It's a great read about how your boy uncle drayton let Drew Stubbs who is right now the best player in all of college baseball get away because he low balled him.

[MadMax]

Hey I can not argue with those numbers but the fact is with a healthy T-MAC and Yao the rockets are much closer to winning a nba title than the Astros are to wining a world series.

I love the Astros but we won 89 games in a watered down NL and if we would of lost lets say two more games we would of not been in the playoffs.

This year I think we have a chance but I would not bank on it.

As far as the Rockets I think we will rebound and win 55-60 games next year.

Your right percentage wise it is harder to make the playoffs in baseball but come on how many teams in baseball can really compete?


1. a healthy t-mac and yao haven't won a playoff series yet. the astros were just 4 games from a world championship. they were IN the world series. that comment is absolutely ridiculous.

2. you just made my point for me. the astros compete because they've built a team that increased revenues...because they put a compelling product on the field, even when they had to eat money in the dome to do it. regular season accomplishments actually mean something in MLB...and the Astros have been very, very competitive for a long time now.

[MadMax]

Here is your beloved astros owner at work.

One of many stories that you never hear about.

go to www.chron.com and then search Richard Justic's article Mclane let the big one get away.

It's a great read about how your boy uncle drayton let Drew Stubbs who is right now the best player in all of college baseball get away because he low balled him.

doesn't the fact that Drew Stubbs has still elected to continue to play college baseball say something about his willingness to hit the bigs, anyway???

and here's what justice says now; an article that is inconceivable before Drayton was owner of this franchise:


http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3768939.html

This franchise's success has come the right way


By RICHARD JUSTICE
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

THE Astros are a no-frills operation with a basic philosophy. They do things right. They win. Simple, right?

That's what this opening night was about. The Astros celebrated themselves.

Good for them.

We love to grouse about our hardball team. We wish the owner would spend more money. If we just had one more bat or one more arm or a little more speed, we'd be champions.

We constantly see our glass as half-empty even when it's not. We focus so much on the small failures that we sometimes minimize the large successes.

The truth is — and please don't tell Drayton McLane we're saying this about him — the Astros are one of the best-run franchises in all of sports.

We're lucky to have an organization that puts a premium on the right things. We're lucky to have an owner who has gotten it right so often.

Take a walk through the home clubhouse at Minute Maid Park. Not a single jerk. No embarrassments.

Look in the manager's office. Local boy comes home and leads club to its two best seasons. Perfect.

We'll return to our regularly scheduled complaining about a thin rotation and the lack of offense in a day or two. For these opening two days of the 2006 season, let's push the pause button and reflect on what has been.

Six playoff appearances in nine seasons. Only the Atlanta Braves and New York Yankees have been more successful over the same stretch.

No, there hasn't been a championship. There has been plenty of everything else. Like 18-inning classics and final-day clinchers and even postseason success.

The Astros are a homegrown team at a time most clubs have revolving-door rosters. Seven of their nine starters Monday night never have played a big-league game for another organization. Their farm system has been so good that the generations have blended together, each new one linked with the previous ones.


Success of past saluted
The Astros have won so much that it has come to seem normal. They saluted their success appropriately by bringing back Nolan Ryan and Larry Dierker and Shane Reynolds. They gathered at midfield with Lance Berkman and Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio and Andy Pettitte and Jose Cruz.

Those eight Astros represented the eight playoff teams. To a man, they reflect the right values on the field and off. They've been easy to root for.

And the night was about Jeffrey Robert Bagwell. His empty locker represents the hole in the 2006 club. Those playoff appearances are his legacy.

"People don't see what we see," Roy Oswalt said. "His leadership is something you can't replace. It's like a brother leaving a team."

Bagwell got the longest, loudest and warmest ovation of the night when he trotted out to join his teammates for the pregame introductions. Perhaps more than any other player this franchise has had, he represents the right stuff.

He was always the best teammate in the clubhouse and one of the best producers on the field. He always cared about the things every player should care about.

His ovation began with a thunderclap, but dissolved into something more, a slow, constant cascade of cheers. Players from both teams joined in. Bagwell said later he couldn't stop his knees from shaking. His best friend, Brad Ausmus, talked of a lump in his throat.

"It was wonderful," manager Phil Garner said. "It's better than words. Your heart flutters. There are tears in your eyes."

Bagwell peeled off his uniform before the game ended and departed for his new life. He hasn't given up on playing again, but acknowledges he might need a medical miracle.

"I was reminded I did some good things in my 15 years," he said. "I want them to know how much I appreciated them throughout the years. Fifteen years with one organization, with some great times, not too many bad times. It has been amazing."

Just before game time, the National League flag was raised in center field. McLane stood beside the National League championship trophy and proudly told the sold-out house: "It only took us 43 years to get this."


Biggio keeps going
Once the ceremonies ended, Oswalt threw eight shutout innings, and Biggio keyed the game-winning rally in the seventh of a 1-0 victory.

The club that was once known as "Bagwell and Biggio" has shifted toward a new generation. Yet Biggio keeps going.

He understood the evening was about more than a new season.

"Over the last 10 years, we've taken our organization on a different path," he said. "That's the thing I'm most proud of. I'm really proud to be an Astro on a night like this."

There'll be another pregame ceremony tonight when the National League rings are handed out.

Wednesday, we'll find something to fuss about.

[Buck Turgidson]

Here is your beloved astros owner at work.

One of many stories that you never hear about.

go to www.chron.com and then search Richard Justic's article Mclane let the big one get away.

It's a great read about how your boy uncle drayton let Drew Stubbs who is right now the best player in all of college baseball get away because he low balled him.
Seriously, we've been over all this before. Repeatedly.

MLB would not allow the Astros to sign Stubbs for what he wanted at the position he was drafted. They use a slotting system for draft pick compensation & teams that go outside of the guidelines (signing 3rd round picks for 1st round sandwich pick money, for example) set a precedent & force the other teams to do the same - raising signing $$$ for everybody. MLB does not want this, and the League Office told Drayton in no uncertain terms to knock it off. (It's also been speculated that this deal falling through helped the Astros get the Troy Patton deal approved by the league, kinda throwing the Astros a bone after getting screwed out of Stubbs).

It sucks, and you can spin it however you want, but that's what happened. All deals are approved by the MLB League Office, and they had no intention of approving this one.

[mateo]

Come on Buck...logic isn't going to convince these guys of anything.

The Astros are one of the most successful franchises in the past 10 years. Some people have no idea how lucky they are to be Stros fans.

There's a reason why I pay $160 a year for MLB Extra Innings here in NYC but have no interest whatsoever in paying for any other sports packages. I love my Rockets but I can wait for their games on TNT or ESPN or listen on Sirius.

[Buck Turgidson]

On Stubbs, he's a tremendously talented kid, unbelievably "toolsy", but his production has yet to live up to his talent. He'll be drafted very high this year, based on potential. He would have been drafted very high coming out of HS (well before the Astros picked), again based on potential, if signability hadn't been an issue.

Calling him "best player in all of college baseball" is a bit of a stretch.

[msn]

Hey I can not argue with those numbers but the fact is with a healthy T-MAC and Yao the rockets are much closer to winning a nba title than the Astros are to wining a world series.
The "fact"? No sir, that is your opinion.

Here is an example of a fact: the Astros have been light years closer to a WS championship in 2004 and 2005 than the Rockets were to an NBA championship.

Do you see the difference now? Facts are completely objective, opinions can be argued. It may be arguable as to whether the 2006 Astros are closer to a championship than the '05-'06 Rockets, but not to most of us! :eek:

[brentdapmp]

I agree that the Astros are closer to winning a WS championship than the Rockets are to winning an NBA championship. There is a stat Charlie on 790 keeps throwing out that is very relevant when talking about the Rockets. They have not been out of the first round since 1997 which is 9 years and that makes you a bad franchise. 17 other NBA teams have been to a conference final since the rockets won a playoff series and 22 other NBA teams have at least won a playoff series since the Rockets got out of the first round. So that is 22 of the 30 NBA teams that have at least won a playoff series since the Rockets have won one. We all love the rockets, but there is no way around the fact they have not been a good franchise for the last 10 years and you have no arguement in saying they are closer to winning a championship than the Astros.

[Summer Song Giver]

I agree that the Astros are closer to winning a WS championship than the Rockets are to winning an NBA championship. There is a stat Charlie on 790 keeps throwing out that is very relevant when talking about the Rockets. They have not been out of the first round since 1997 which is 9 years and that makes you a bad franchise. 17 other NBA teams have been to a conference final since the rockets won a playoff series and 22 other NBA teams have at least won a playoff series since the Rockets got out of the first round. So that is 22 of the 30 NBA teams that have at least won a playoff series since the Rockets have won one. We all love the rockets, but there is no way around the fact they have not been a good franchise for the last 10 years and you have no arguement in saying they are closer to winning a championship than the Astros.

Interesting, you can definately say that Yao has not had a Duncanesque effect on the franchise to date. McGrady for the most part has done what McGrady has historically done and JVG has yet to turn the Rox into the perennial contendors that the Knix were. Injuries aside, it makes you; well it makes me wonder about the overall direction of the team.

[pgabriel]

Interesting, you can definately say that Yao has not had a Duncanesque effect on the franchise to date. McGrady for the most part has done what McGrady has historically done and JVG has yet to turn the Rox into the perennial contendors that the Knix were. Injuries aside, it makes you; well it makes me wonder about the overall direction of the team.

I believe if the two were healthy that they would eventually become contenders. I'm more concerned about the injuries.

[texanskan]

[QUOTE=MadMax]doesn't the fact that Drew Stubbs has still elected to continue to play college baseball say something about his willingness to hit the bigs, anyway???

Well the rules are, you can get drafted out of high school but if you elect to play college baseball than you must either obtain the age of 21 or be three years removed from high school at the time of the draft.

Most of us are 18 when we graduate high school and do not turn 21 till our third year in college so the three year rule almost always is the rule.

The only guy I can think of that has been 21 after only two seasons was Ryan Wagner from UH he was drafted during the college baseball playoffs and then reported to double a ball. Shortly after that he was called up for the Reds.

[gucci888]

I wouldn't call it "ironic," but more of how disappointing this past season was for the Rockets and Texans.

[texanskan]

I wouldn't call it "ironic," but more of how disappointing this past season was for the Rockets and Texans.

agree

[Miguel]

Why did Drayton buy the Astros if he was so worried about the bottom line?

I get pissed off when we build them a new stadium and every single season all the tickets go up as well as consessions.

Look he lucked out we had a great team in place as far as scouting and player development.

Drayton did not want to give the unit his money if he did we would have been world series champs. He playes stupid games when it comes to free agents.

I can't belive how this guy has scamed everyone in this city to feel sorry for him or take his side on all the teams moves.

Baseball should be way more affordible than other sports, there are a 162 games. Mark my word when the Astros real off two or three non playoff years the fans will not go.

I don't know about yall but I am scared as hell with Roy o's contract year coming up.

FYI no one would have the opportunity to sign Clemens if Drayton would of just offered him arbitration.



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://www.neogaf.com/forum/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://www.neogaf.com/forum/images/smilies/laugh.gif

This texanskan guy is a great joke character