[chron]No Bull? Rockets say they still would have won like Mike

[tinman]

I know some of you guys on this board need a history lesson, so I pulled this one up.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/3221857.html

No Bull? Rockets say they still would have won like Mike
By FRAN BLINEBURY
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Ten years later and it's still there, hanging over their legacy.

In the two years when the Rockets won their back-to-back championships, Michael Jordan was off pursuing a baseball career and then making his first NBA comeback.

The critics contend that those championship banners would not be flying in Houston and the Chicago Bulls might have won eight titles in a row.

The Rockets themselves would have loved to have proven everybody wrong.

"There should be no doubt or label of fluke on our championships," said Hakeem Olajuwon. "As for Michael Jordan, a lot of people don't know and never looked up our matchups with Chicago during that time. If you check the records, you'll see that we beat them on a consistent basis when Michael was playing and winning his first three championships.

"(Vernon) Maxwell guarded Michael and gave him problems. In '95, we would have had Mario Elie on him. They didn't have anyone who could contain me. Chicago was never a problem for us. We always looked forward to playing them. A lot of people don't realize that."

The Rockets, in fact, had a 5-1 record vs. Jordan and the Bulls from 1991 through 1993, the span of Chicago's first "three-peat."

After a loss on his home floor at Chicago Stadium in 1993, Jordan said, "We have no answer for the big guy. It's a good thing they won't ever make it to the (NBA) Finals, because I don't think we could beat them."

Head coach Rudy Tomjanovich is philosophical.

"It's one of those things, a good sports debate," he said. "But we don't have to apologize to anybody. I've actually talked to Michael about that topic several times. He's always told me he thought those would have been some helluva playoff series."

Elie is defiant.

"That's the one thing that still sticks with me and bothers me, not getting to play Chicago in the Finals," he said. "Hey, it's not our fault that Jordan wasn't there. We're not the ones who told him to go try baseball.

"We had a team that lined up against anybody and could beat anybody out there. I always wanted the challenge of going against 'the greatest' in the Finals. If there's a gap, that's it. That we didn't get to play them. But there's nobody that can tell me we couldn't play with them.

"Hey, that's my biggest regret about that John Stockton shot that went in for Utah in '97. I was ready to play Chicago that year. With Dream, Clyde (Drexler) and Charles (Barkley), we'd have beaten them then, too."
http://amarillo.com/images/headlines/010698/dream.jpg

[OmegaSupreme]

not to say that maxwell would have locked jordan down, but he definitely would have given the guy fits. i'm sure there would have been several techs between the two. man... that would have been a bad arse series. i'd give "(insert tmac640 quote here)" to see rox/bulls in the finals.

[ChrisBosh]

i miss the Hakeem days, the man flat out knew how to play.

[tinman]

i miss the Hakeem days, the man flat out knew how to play.
"Chicago was never a problem for us"
http://media.nba.com/media/playerfile/hakeem_olajuwon.jpg

[krosfyah]

Nice article. That has always been a big hole for me. Everybody puts an * next to our championships but those that do so don't know know the Rockets.

[AntiSonic]

I think the Rockets would have beaten Chicago too, but let's face it, there's no way the officials would have let Vernon guard Jordan honestly in the finals.

The biggest thing that gets my goat is how people act like the 1996-98 Bulls were a straight continuation of the first threepeat team. Outside of Pippen and Jordan, they are entirely different teams, and the later version would not have been built the same had Jordan not originally retired.

Plus, no team since the 60s Celtics has won four in a row. I actually believe that the two years off gave Jordan an edge. He was a 12 year veteran with only nine years of mileage.

[Luckyazn]

96-97 would have been a HELLA GOOD FINAL if we didnt lose to UTAH! :mad:


Barkley/Drexler/Hakeem

vs

Jordan/Pippen/Rodman

[Luckyazn]

http://amarillo.com/images/headlines/010698/dream.jpg

anyway to get this as a poster? :)

[AntiSonic]

96-97 would have been a HELLA GOOD FINAL if we didnt lose to UTAH! :mad:


Barkley/Drexler/Hakeem

vs

Jordan/Pippen/Rodman

Edge to Rockets for Barkley's offensive output + rebounding vs. Rodman's.

To be fair, I think Chicago's long-armed perimeter athletes would have given Maloney and Threatt FITS, but Olajuwon, Barkley, and Willis would have just been too much for Chicago inside.

[JBIIRockets]

I personally think the 96-97 team would have lost to the Bulls, but the 94 and 95 teams would have beaten MJ. The Rockets role players on their title teams were mucn better than anything the Bulls saw in their Finals years.

[blazer_ben]

Dont forget we had really good primeter shooters in Horry, Ellie, Cassell, Smith and jent during our championship runs. the bulls would have had to collapse on olajuwon , hence our primeter shooters would have destroyed them. those two championship teams were phenominal squads.

[rocketfan83]

Some of you guys might think I am stupid for saying this but I'll go ahead and say it Michael Jordan is overrated. Yes I agree he is the best player player of all time in terms of what he achieved on the court.

But was he really that much better than Bird, Magic, Dream or Shaq??? I don't think so,Jordan was in a perfect situation his supporting cast is way underrated. I mean I hate Pippen as much as anybody but lets face it the 93-94 Bulls won 2 less games than the year prior and they got to the semi-finals. Pippen was a legit star in Chicago. Pippen is often called overrated I personally think he was the most underrated player of all time. I believe we can plug any of those players I mentioned above and they would have had similar success with those Bulls teams.

I believe he was as good as anybody but I don't think he's hands down the best player of all time it was all about situation. The Bulls were a far cry from the Boston Celtics or the UCLA teams. The Bulls were a dynasty but they weren't a juggernaunt.

It also forgotten that Jordan lost in the 95 playoffs!!! Maybe he wasn't typical Jordan. But I'm pretty sure that the additions of Ronnie Harper and Dennis Rodman may have had a "tad" to do with the the Bull's success the next year.

Bottom line is that this argument is impossible to win with typical NBA fans so don't try. Jordans popularity is up there with a god. You can't beat a god. I'm saying Jordan isn't a god just a hell of a basketball player.

And on a sidenote the Rockets run of 95 (Jazz, Suns, Spurs, Magic) is up there with the Bulls 72 win season. I doubt we will see 72 wins again, I also dont think we will see a playoff run that compares to the 95 season.

[declan32001]

http://amarillo.com/images/headlines/010698/dream.jpg

anyway to get this as a poster? :)

There have to be better photos of Dream stuffing Jordan in their earlier years. Dream stuffed everybody, but the reason MJ stands out in my memory is because when he was young he could hang in the air forever. In a split second you could see Jordan in-midair waiting for Dream to foul him and he'd just be standing there. Then Jordan, still in mid-air, would make his move and SWAT!

Every truly great shot blockers knew how to make "statement blocks" and those seemed to happen a lot early on against MJ. But I specifically remember one of those against Clyde circa '86 or '87.

Clyde went to the rack in his typical bull-dozer fashion and Dream blocked the ball into Clyde's nose and knocked him flat on his back. The ball went out of bounds and Clyde got up and got in Dream's face like we was scolding the hell out of a little brother.

It seemed like this:
"That was necessary? You didn't even want possession of the ball, you just wanted to knock me on my **s." Dream just smiled like a Chessire cat. Glory days. :D

[ansarisu]

If I'm not mistaken, we beat everyone, EVERYONE, Michael Jordan beat. I understand that will always be asked of Houston's championships. But how were those two teams ('94 and '95 Rockets) not as good as any playoff team in the last 20 years? David Robison, Malone, Barkely, Stockton, Shaq (baby albeit).

Sigh...those were the days.

[Luckyazn]

Some of you guys might think I am stupid for saying this but I'll go ahead and say it Michael Jordan is overrated. Yes I agree he is the best player player of all time in terms of what he achieved on the court.

But was he really that much better than Bird, Magic, Dream or Shaq??? I don't think so,Jordan was in a perfect situation his supporting cast is way underrated. I mean I hate Pippen as much as anybody but lets face it the 93-94 Bulls won 2 less games than the year prior and they got to the semi-finals. Pippen was a legit star in Chicago. Pippen is often called overrated I personally think he was the most underrated player of all time. I believe we can plug any of those players I mentioned above and they would have had similar success with those Bulls teams.

I believe he was as good as anybody but I don't think he's hands down the best player of all time it was all about situation. The Bulls were a far cry from the Boston Celtics or the UCLA teams. The Bulls were a dynasty but they weren't a juggernaunt.

It also forgotten that Jordan lost in the 95 playoffs!!! Maybe he wasn't typical Jordan. But I'm pretty sure that the additions of Ronnie Harper and Dennis Rodman may have had a "tad" to do with the the Bull's success the next year.

Bottom line is that this argument is impossible to win with typical NBA fans so don't try. Jordans popularity is up there with a god. You can't beat a god. I'm saying Jordan isn't a god just a hell of a basketball player.

And on a sidenote the Rockets run of 95 (Jazz, Suns, Spurs, Magic) is up there with the Bulls 72 win season. I doubt we will see 72 wins again, I also dont think we will see a playoff run that compares to the 95 season.


Jordan overrated? how come someone being the BEST player in the past 20yrs or maybe even EVER be OVERRATED? The only reason he lost in the 95' playoff was because it was HIS FIRST YR back after retirement he was just getting his legs back. Did you see the Bulls from 93-95 without Jordan? with Pippen running the show?

Jordan = the greatest
Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Magic = superstars

Kobe,AI,Garnett = OVERRATEEED!

[across110thstreet]

I love the Jordan double standard...

when you remind someone that he played in the '95 playoffs and got beat by the team that Houston swept in the Finals, people say "but he was out the first half of the season..."

but I thought he was the best player on the planet? Surely the best player on the planet should win in a playoff series against Shaq...

[CreepyFloyd]

i remember during the mid 1990s when jordan was going for the win with a 3 in a game at the summit and hakeem rejected him, then got the ball, and slammed it on the ground in jordan's face as time ran out....and the dream was right, they had nobody that could contain him....chicago better be glad they didnt play the rockets in the finals

[kpsta]

I love the Jordan double standard...

when you remind someone that he played in the '95 playoffs and got beat by the team that Houston swept in the Finals, people say "but he was out the first half of the season..."

but I thought he was the best player on the planet? Surely the best player on the planet should win in a playoff series against Shaq...

No kidding... that and the whole argument that Jordan wasn't in "playoff form" yet since he'd been out earlier... I guess he wasn't in "playoff form" when he'd dropped 55 on the Knicks that year.

I guarantee that that team would have won against the Bulls in the Finals without losing more than 2 games. At most... the way Hakeem and Clyde were playing during that stretch, it would have likely been a sweep just like against the Magic.

[barryxzz]

it would have likely been a sweep just like against the Magic.
Well, there is no Nick Anderson on Bulls. :p

[kpsta]

Well, there is no Nick Anderson on Bulls. :p

I stand by what I said nonetheless... :)

[Lynus302]

I love the Jordan double standard...

when you remind someone that he played in the '95 playoffs and got beat by the team that Houston swept in the Finals, people say "but he was out the first half of the season..."

but I thought he was the best player on the planet? Surely the best player on the planet should win in a playoff series against Shaq...
Yeah. Something like MJ's second game back in '95 he dropped 50+ on the Knicks. Not bad for someone who is supposed to be rusty and "just getting his legs back."

I'm not about to deny his greatness, but the man got beat, plain and simple, after having half a freaking season in which to get in game shape. He'd just wrapped up trying to be a professional baseball player, not a professional pie-eater who wanted to give it one last shot. Stop with the excuses. Michael Jordan was still in his prime and was in DAMN good shape, and he LOST.

[Kyrodis]

What a lot of people don't realize is that Jordan's talent isn't what made him great. Honestly, if you just take basketball skill/talent and compare swingmen like Dominique, Magic, Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, and McGrady...they all have strengths and weaknesses.

To be quite frank, as much as I dislike him, I actually believe that Kobe has the same skill and talent level that Jordan had...if not more.

Jordan transcended into new levels of greatness because of two things:
- The system in which he played
- His sheer desire to win and be better than everyone else

If he had lacked either one of them, nobody would be talking about Jordan as the greatest ever.

Without a good system and teammates, you're left with the Kevin Garnetts of the league...guys who want more than anything to win but just can't. Stick an in-prime Jordan on our current squad without Yao, and how well would you expect our team to do?

Without his competitive fire, those Bulls team wouldn't have gone anywhere either. Put any one of the elite swingmen of today on those stacked Bulls teams, and I highly doubt they would've won three straight titles (two separate times).

He was VERY physically talented yes...but so were a number of other players. Bottom line is, his drive to win and the teams he played on meshed together perfectly and created a dominating team in the 90s.

[tinman]

this is why I hate the Spurs.
They gave Rodman away for Will Purdue. That's like I gave you $100 and you gave me 100 pesos.
The reason why the Bulls got 3 more was because of Rodman.

He kept grabbing all the boards. If it was Horrace Grant or some other PF, the Bulls would have lost to the Pacers.

[rocketfan83]

Jordan overrated? how come someone being the BEST player in the past 20yrs or maybe even EVER be OVERRATED? The only reason he lost in the 95' playoff was because it was HIS FIRST YR back after retirement he was just getting his legs back. Did you see the Bulls from 93-95 without Jordan? with Pippen running the show?

Jordan = the greatest
Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Magic = superstars

Kobe,AI,Garnett = OVERRATEEED!

Like I said its all about situation.

Yes I saw the Bulls w/o MJ lose a tough series against the Knicks and lose just 2 less games after MJ went to baseball.

Surely after losing the G.O.AT. that team would have fallen off more than just 2 games and a Semi- Finals appearance. If not surely after they get him back for the next season even if just a 1/2 season they should have ran away with the title that wasn't the case. He ran into the best big man his team ever faced. You think Dream (way better than Shaq at the time) would have gotten wiped off the floor by MJ??? No way.

MJ might be the greatest I'm just saying people are in love with him way to much to the point where he is overrated. If I'm starting a team with any player in the history of the game I might pick Jordan but theres probaly 3-4 other players I'd think about picking. Similar to the way people I'd pick Joe Montana in football but theres probaly 3-4 players I'd think about taking, I'd take barry bonds in baseball but again theres 3-4 players I'd think about taking.

That's why I'm saying hes overrated he's not by far the #1 player IMO. He was in a perfect situation. It's really a shame this should be sports biggest/funnest debate. But among average joes they think your an idiot if you think the Rockets could hang with those Bulls.

[barryxzz]

this is why I hate the Spurs.
They gave Rodman away for Will Purdue. That's like I gave you $100 and you gave me 100 pesos.
The reason why the Bulls got 3 more was because of Rodman.

He kept grabbing all the boards. If it was Horrace Grant or some other PF, the Bulls would have lost to the Pacers.
I knew MJ before Rodman, but Rodman is the guy who attracted me to NBA. I actually bought his book "Just do it" before MJ's "For the love of the game". :cool:

[droxford]

Bulls? Nah. We'd have beaten them in those days (even if Jorda was playing).

Now, the Seattle Supersonics, on the other hand.....

[Sishir Chang]

Bulls? Nah. We'd have beaten them in those days (even if Jorda was playing).

Now, the Seattle Supersonics, on the other hand.....

I always hate how people also bring up that we didn't play the Sonics during our championship years.

[Junkyard Dog]

The reason I know Jordan was able to drop 50+ against the knicks and was ready for the playoffs that year was because he was practicing with Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck against the MONSTARS....Jordan couldn't be stopped by the Monstars there is no way the Rockets could of beat him :rolleyes:

[dream2franchise]

Jordan was healthy and back. 55 point games, buzzer beaters you name it. Funny people say "he's back!" when its all good, but the Bulls lose and Michael is still rusty--as if they could ever tarnish his legacy.

Let's face it--Jordan's Bulls got beaten by teams with dominant centres. Smits and Ewing--they could handle. Dream and Shaq? not in a seven game series.

Olajuwon is the greatest centre ever, and i'm tired of him being forgotten, ignored and unacknowledged the way he is.

Shaq says Hakeem's the greatest.

Robert Horry, who has played with Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan says Hakeem was the best out of the three.

Jordan himself says his Bulls couldn't have beaten the Rockets because they had no answer for dream.

Yet here we are, having to hear Shaq named constantly as an "immortal" (along with Russel,Wilt and Jabbar). We have to see Hakeem constantly outranked by less talented centres anytime there is a list created. It really bugs the hell out of me.

Give the man some damn respect.

[Nice Rollin]

"I was bear-hugged, not picked,"
- Houston's Clyde Drexler...He fought desperately to get past Malone and back to cover Stockton.

[tinman]

"I was bear-hugged, not picked,"
- Houston's Clyde Drexler...He fought desperately to get past Malone and back to cover Stockton.
why are you bringin back such horrible memories???
:(

[HI Mana]

How boring of a discussion! Where's the flood of free registrees coming to Mike's defense, the guys who own every Air Jordan, the ones who demand that #23 be retired leaguewide, because clearly, Jordan had as much impact as Jackie Robinson in baseball, or dominated the league as amazingly as Gretzky (the man has more assists than any other player has assists+goals!).

Where are the ravenous fanboys who say the two Houston Championships should be marked with an asterisk, because the best player on the planet was playing baseball? That the regular season matchup didn't mean a thing, because Jordan always "found a way to win" in the playoffs, ignoring the fact that 1. The best player on the planet was playing in Houston, and 2. Houston had the true will to win during those two years.

Debates are no fun when everyone agrees! Where's the flaming, the controversy, the stubborness and recalcitrance rivaling a creationist (excuse me, intelligent design supporter) enrolling in Evolutionary Biology 300?

Come on disciples of Jordan! We need a lively, 30 page debate to take our mind off losing/winning/tanking/marrying.

[RocketsMac]

Some of you guys might think I am stupid for saying this but I'll go ahead and say it Michael Jordan is overrated. Yes I agree he is the best player player of all time in terms of what he achieved on the court.

But was he really that much better than Bird, Magic, Dream or Shaq??? I don't think so,Jordan was in a perfect situation his supporting cast is way underrated. I mean I hate Pippen as much as anybody but lets face it the 93-94 Bulls won 2 less games than the year prior and they got to the semi-finals. Pippen was a legit star in Chicago. Pippen is often called overrated I personally think he was the most underrated player of all time. I believe we can plug any of those players I mentioned above and they would have had similar success with those Bulls teams.

I believe he was as good as anybody but I don't think he's hands down the best player of all time it was all about situation. The Bulls were a far cry from the Boston Celtics or the UCLA teams. The Bulls were a dynasty but they weren't a juggernaunt.

It also forgotten that Jordan lost in the 95 playoffs!!! Maybe he wasn't typical Jordan. But I'm pretty sure that the additions of Ronnie Harper and Dennis Rodman may have had a "tad" to do with the the Bull's success the next year.

Bottom line is that this argument is impossible to win with typical NBA fans so don't try. Jordans popularity is up there with a god. You can't beat a god. I'm saying Jordan isn't a god just a hell of a basketball player.

And on a sidenote the Rockets run of 95 (Jazz, Suns, Spurs, Magic) is up there with the Bulls 72 win season. I doubt we will see 72 wins again, I also dont think we will see a playoff run that compares to the 95 season.

great post man.. I never knew that some people actually think the same way I do.. I think that MJ is not the best of all time.. in my eyes: it's Hakeem... because he won the 1st championship (1994) pretty much by himself.. (he just had desent role players)... in the all time best.. you cant say that MJ is better than Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Oscar...

[Deckard]

How boring of a discussion! Where's the flood of free registrees coming to Mike's defense, the guys who own every Air Jordan, the ones who demand that #23 be retired leaguewide, because clearly, Jordan had as much impact as Jackie Robinson in baseball, or dominated the league as amazingly as Gretzky (the man has more assists than any other player has assists+goals!).

Where are the ravenous fanboys who say the two Houston Championships should be marked with an asterisk, because the best player on the planet was playing baseball? That the regular season matchup didn't mean a thing, because Jordan always "found a way to win" in the playoffs, ignoring the fact that 1. The best player on the planet was playing in Houston, and 2. Houston had the true will to win during those two years.

Debates are no fun when everyone agrees! Where's the flaming, the controversy, the stubborness and recalcitrance rivaling a creationist (excuse me, intelligent design supporter) enrolling in Evolutionary Biology 300?

Come on disciples of Jordan! We need a lively, 30 page debate to take our mind off losing/winning/tanking/marrying.
Well, I guess you're the flood.

Jordan was truly amazing, but if Larry Bird could have had a injury free career, I think he would be ranked right there with MJ. When Bird was healthy, he refused to let you beat him. The year the Rockets played in the Finals, in '86, Bird had as good a season as anyone ever has, especially if you watched him play and got to appreciate all the myriad ways he made his team better. That the Rocks took them to 6 games says all you need to know about just how good that young Rockets team was. In my opinion, the '85-'86 Celtics may have been the greatest team in NBA history.

Jordan, the Bulls, and our two championship teams? We would have beaten them.



(haven't we had this discussion about 200 times??)

[Simpa]

Jordan overrated? how come someone being the BEST player in the past 20yrs or maybe even EVER be OVERRATED? The only reason he lost in the 95' playoff was because it was HIS FIRST YR back after retirement he was just getting his legs back. Did you see the Bulls from 93-95 without Jordan? with Pippen running the show?

Jordan = the greatest
Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Magic = superstars

Kobe,AI,Garnett = OVERRATEEED!

couldn't agree more with u

[SamFisher]

Bulls? Nah. We'd have beaten them in those days (even if Jorda was playing).

Now, the Seattle Supersonics, on the other hand.....


The 93 Rox, inferior to the 94 n' 95 Rox, went to game 7, overtime in Seattle and only didn't win it because of bogus hometown calls on the Rox in the last few minutes of regulation (one of which fouled Hakeem out of the game) - and still were v-max 3 away from winning the series.

Of course, they would not have to play game 7 in Seattle (where the home team won every game that series) if the bullsh-t refs hadn't given Robinson and the Sperms a tip-in that occurred a full second AFTER the final buzzer in the last game of the regular season - but that's another (pre-replay) matter.

So if the 93 Rox can play the Sonics nearly dead even in the playoffs - I don't think it's cut and dried the 94 or 95 rocks woudn't have been able to beat them. Obviously the sonics gave them trouble - but those two teams were special - they just wouldn't die (probably due in no small part to the disappointment of 93). The same hunger wasn't there in 96.

[tinman]

Of course, they would not have to play game 7 in Seattle (where the home team won every game that series) if the bullsh-t refs hadn't given Robinson and the Sperms a tip-in that occurred a full second AFTER the final buzzer in the last game of the regular season - but that's another (pre-replay) matter.



Sam,
thats another reason why i hate the spurs. I remember that. i was so angry, but I think Gene Peterson lost it. I think he had to apologize to the Rockets audience .

There was so much pasion on the Rockets team and even the commentators radio and TV.

[Sishir Chang]

The reason I know Jordan was able to drop 50+ against the knicks and was ready for the playoffs that year was because he was practicing with Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck against the MONSTARS....Jordan couldn't be stopped by the Monstars there is no way the Rockets could of beat him :rolleyes:

Of course those MONSTARS had the ability of Charles Barkley, Mugsy Bogues, Larry Johnson and Shawn Bradley. There's no way the Rox lose to a team made up of those guys. :D

[CreepyFloyd]

I always hate how people also bring up that we didn't play the Sonics during our championship years.

while it's true the rockets didnt beat the sonics during the championship years, they did take them to 7 games in the west semis the year before they won the 1st championship....i think they would've beat them during the championship years and they did beat them in the west semis in 1997

[KeepKenny]

Did you see the Bulls from 93-95 without Jordan? with Pippen running the show?
[/B]

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your argument, but the Pippen led Bulls won 55 games in '94 and 47 in '95. Nothing to sneeze at. Compare that to our record without Tmac, and it's obvious that the Bulls were a damn talented team. They advanced in the playoffs without Jordan. You gotta be pretty good to do that.

[HAYJON02]

Let's ask Zandar...
http://www.matherart.com/fineart/commercial/ask.zandar.jpg
Zandar says, "Definitely. We'll definitely never know."

[HI Mana]

Well, I guess you're the flood.



I suppose I have to work on my sarcasm...

I believe that the Rockets would have won as well, it's just that opinions don't hold nearly as much weight when there's no opposing viewpoint. So far I haven't seen a single person willing to come to the Bulls defense, and figured that at least one person was willing to defend the legacy of the most popular player of the '90s.

I suppose I was mistaken.

[Zach Kang]

96-97 would have been a HELLA GOOD FINAL if we didnt lose to UTAH! :mad:


Barkley/Drexler/Hakeem

vs

Jordan/Pippen/Rodman


We can't beat UTAH we certainly can't beat the bull

[lloyde8]

We can't beat UTAH we certainly can't beat the bull
I agree with you totally. That's the way the way the cookie crumbles. How can one say that the rockets could've beat the bulls if the rockets beat utah who lost to the bulls in 6 games? Plus it doesn't matter that the rockets beat the bulls on a regular basis in the regular season, in the playoffs the bulls were so dominant in every which way: defense, rebounds, outside shooting, teamwork and plain and simple great leaders, system, and coaching staff. And sorry but if the rockets were really champions during all the bulls dynasties, they would've made to the finals all those times. To be a champion the team has to win and prove it. The 95 bulls didn't win because Jordan was not in consistent basketball shape and did not have a real power forward (horace grant signed with orlando that year) and had to accept tall perimeter player Kukoc as the PF. Don't tell me that you didn't the difference between the 95 out of bball shape Jordan and the 96,97, and 98 back to form, high flying, quick Jordan. I honestly believed the rockets would've lost to those bulls in 6 or 7 games four out of the six finals the bulls won. And believe those rockets were great but the bulls were better as a team. I'm a rocket fan now even though they're not in playoff contention. I believe they will eventually win a title in a couple of years if they put the right players around yao and mcgrady and barring not to many injuries.

[HAYJON02]

^^^^^^^^

I hate to harp on the noobs, but paragraphs are your friend. :)

I disagree with both of you because of the all-important factor of matchups. The fact that we didn't match up as well with the Jazz as we'd have liked (actually we did pretty much own them before that series, it was a flip of a coin) has no bearing on how we competed with the Bulls. The Jazz just didn't have favorable matchups with them compared to us.

The Sonics always matched up unbelievably well with us. They probably would have handled us during our championship years, but we'll never know. We can only make an educated guess from our head to head records around the time.

[StupidMoniker]

while it's true the rockets didnt beat the sonics during the championship years...they did beat them in the west semis in 1997
Charles might have had something to do with that.

[bushwickbillyd]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/bushwickbillyd/Dream.bmp

[FranchiseBlade]

It was already said, but Jordan was only gone for one of the Rockets championship. Jordan came back in '95, and the Jordan lead Bulls couldn't make it to the finals. It isn't the Rockets fault that Jordan's team didn't reach that year.

It isn't the Bull's fault that Houston didn't reach the finals the years when we were dominating them during the regular season.

[cuneo77]

i remember watching the bulls weekly show in 93 cuz i wanted to hear what they said about the upcoming texas trip,i still remember what phil said.

the mavs= "its nice to get a road win on a tought trip like this ( i miss the mavs being a 10 win team)

spurs= its going to be a good game,blah blah

rockets = houston always gives us fits, i am glad we dont see them in the playoffs

as for 97,we would have matched up better than utah

imagine had we beat em in 97, being to beat up to do it again in 98 :(

[MR. MEOWGI]

We would of destroyed them.

[GladiatoRowdy]

...
Yes I agree he is the best player player of all time in terms of what he achieved on the court.
...


No, he isn't. Bill Russell earned 11 rings in his 13 years in the NBA.

[kwik_e_mart]

After reading this thread... I feel like replacing Chuck Norris with Michael Jordan... as both are able to do anything at anytime...

[einstein]

Jordan = the greatest
Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Magic = superstars

Kobe,AI,Garnett = OVERRATEEED!

Yeah, i seem to recall AI burning Jordan, Kobe stealing jordan's farewell all-star game victory(Kobe was a teenager), Shaq sweeping jordan and the bulls. Bird and Magic are just like jordan; legends. Jordan is just the greatest MARKETED NBA player ever. surround AI with the same help Jordan had and I guarantee AI will be the "greatest ever"

[einstein]

We can't beat UTAH we certainly can't beat the bull

we couldnt beat Seattle but we beat Denver and New York. :p

[einstein]

Charles might have had something to do with that.

and Shawn Kemp... and/or drugs and alcohol (although alcohol is a somewhat socially accepted drug b/c of the amount of political pull and money it brings into this country)

[Patience]

we couldnt beat Seattle but we beat Denver and New York. :p

umm...I don't think we ever played Denver in a playoff series in the 90's...

[sammy]

i loved this article ...i carpool with a mavs and spurs fan and we were debating about this and ofcourse they were hating....jordon quote finishes the argument for me

[Kyrodis]

Oops...misread something. Deleted

[boomer83]

...i carpool with a mavs and spurs fan ....

May God have mercy on your soul

[The Ming Dynasty]

May God have mercy on your soul
Thank you! That Rox :D

[tinman]

i loved this article ...i carpool with a mavs and spurs fan and we were debating about this and ofcourse they were hating....jordon quote finishes the argument for me
i can hear the spurs fan still claiming that Dream travels on the dream shake.
http://www.nbadfunkd.com/0001Grabs/olajuwon_shake_grab_052495.jpg

[loadedAballer]

I love this debate...

On paper the Bulls are superior in all departments except at center. Statistically except 3-point shooting and blocks (maybe), the Bulls would dominate the team head to head comparisons.

I seriously believe that Hakeem would erase any deficiencies in the other positions b/c he is light years ahead of anybody the Bulls could throw at him.
Maxwell could at least play Jordan straight up and funnel him to Hakeem, Horry and Thorpe.

If Jordan could average 40+ on a small Phoenix front-line, imagine the destruction Hakeem would have visited on Phoenix in 93. It would have been a sweep and a Finals meeting with Chicago.

No disrespect to the Bulls, but IMHO they should consider themselves lucky that they never met the Rox in 93 courtesy of the Sonics.

Hakeem had another MVP season in 93 and should have taken it if Chuck did not lead the Suns to the best record in the league.

I just have this gut feeling that Hakeem would have taken his game on a higher plateau than Jordan in the Finals and won it in 7.

Hakeem is a nice, humble and quiet person but we all know when he gets fired up, he can't be touched. That 6 game masterpiece he hung on David will never be equalled in league history.

Put Hakeem in the Knicks team that kept getting bounced by the Bulls instead of that serial underperformer Patrick Ewing....it would be a different story.

[MadMax]

Jordan overrated? how come someone being the BEST player in the past 20yrs or maybe even EVER be OVERRATED? The only reason he lost in the 95' playoff was because it was HIS FIRST YR back after retirement he was just getting his legs back. Did you see the Bulls from 93-95 without Jordan? with Pippen running the show?

Jordan = the greatest
Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, Magic = superstars

Kobe,AI,Garnett = OVERRATEEED!

just getting his legs back?? the man was a professional athlete. an amazing athlete at that. they got buzzsawed because they couldn't match up down low with the Magic. the very same problem they had with the Rockets. they acquired Rodman to address that very problem.

but don't give me the, "he was just getting his legs back" stuff. that's ridiculous. the man hung 55 on the Knicks that regular season. he was back in March. he averaged 31.5 ppg in the 95 playoffs. he wasn't a shell of himself. the Bulls just couldn't get over the Magic. the same Magic the Rockets clobbered.

by the way...if i'm putting together an all-time team, Magic Johnson gets picked first.

[adeelsiddiqui]

Some of you guys might think I am stupid for saying this but I'll go ahead and say it Michael Jordan is overrated. Yes I agree he is the best player player of all time in terms of what he achieved on the court.


And on a sidenote the Rockets run of 95 (Jazz, Suns, Spurs, Magic) is up there with the Bulls 72 win season. I doubt we will see 72 wins again, I also dont think we will see a playoff run that compares to the 95 season.
i agree with all this, and have to add that MJ is an awesome player, no doubt. But, you have to admit, that guy was marketed very very well. his publicist should be given mad props.

[GladiatoRowdy]

by the way...if i'm putting together an all-time team, Magic Johnson gets picked first.

You take Magic, I take Bill Russell. Who is your next pick?

[einstein]

umm...I don't think we ever played Denver in a playoff series in the 90's...

sorry, i meant that they knocked seattle out for us.

[MadMax]

You take Magic, I take Bill Russell. Who is your next pick?

if i take magic first, than i'm probably looking for a post-man. i never saw russell play. i saw hakeem play, though. see where i'm going? :)

[Parlett316]

if i take magic first, than i'm probably looking for a post-man. i never saw russell play. i saw hakeem play, though. see where i'm going? :)

You take Kevin McHale if you want post play.

[dharocks]

You take Kevin McHale if you want post play.

Kevin McHale may have had the best individual post moves ever, but if you had the choice, you would never, ever take Kevin McHale over Hakeem Olajuwon.

Or at least I hope you wouldn't.

[high5]

Let's face it--Jordan's Bulls got beaten by teams with dominant centres. Smits and Ewing--they could handle. Dream and Shaq? not in a seven game series.[/B]
IIRC they swept Shaq & his Magic in 1996 playoffs.

[aussie rocket]

As much as I love the Rocks, here goes...

Michael Jordan and the Bulls were untouchable. The quality of the 94 and 95 finals sloppy in comparison to the sleek machine that was the Bulls. Of course the Rockets of 94 and 95 deserved those titles.

Our teams of the next few years, while quite vastly different (especially those regrettable jerseys) couldnt handle them in regular season meetings.

I hated on Jordan, just cause I got sick of seeing him win so much and carrying that annoying ass Pippen(but not the great Lucien Longley). Got lots of satisfaction in watching him fail to lift the Wizards to great heights :)
But the it is no less doubtful in my mind that our great title winning teams of the mid 90's would still have fallen short of Chicago.

[Parlett316]

Kevin McHale may have had the best individual post moves ever, but if you had the choice, you would never, ever take Kevin McHale over Hakeem Olajuwon.

Or at least I hope you wouldn't.

He said post play. If he asked center, as much as I love Dream you have to take either Russell or Chamberlain first.

[SamFisher]

Michael Jordan and the Bulls were untouchable. The quality of the 94 and 95 finals sloppy in comparison to the sleek machine that was the Bulls. Of course the Rockets of 94 and 95 deserved those titles. .

Did you happen to see the some of the brick-fests vs. Utah that the Bulls engaged in at the end of their run? In 12 games, a team scored over 100 points exactly once, and combined, each team only went over 90 6 times. Most of the time the scores were in the 80's - not exactly sleek.

The 1998 series was even lower scoring than the dreaded Rockets-Knicks series (yet is never mentioned in the same breath and is instead regarded as a great series)...as if it's so much prettier when Bryon Russell misses a shot.

We saw what happened to the Bulls after they lost Horace Grant (who left prior to the Jordan retirement, IIRC, in order to get paid and because he hated Phil Jackson) and before they acquired Rodman - even Michael and Scottie couldn't overcome the utter lack of any presence inside - they couldn't stop even a young Shaq. Prime Hakeem would have murdered them, just like he murdered everybody.

[RocketsMac]

He said post play. If he asked center, as much as I love Dream you have to take either Russell or Chamberlain first.
I agree That Russel and Chamberlain are great centers, but they could only score and rebound.. and the time that they played in lacked great centers to compete against.. they played against midgets and did great things.. but Hakeem could do everything.. everything, what do you want ? points? Rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals? Post ups? fade aways? threes ( the one in the finals :D )?.. Hakeem had a Quadruple Double once, Hakeem is the all-time leaderin blocks... I know a lot would disagree, but Hakeem is the best complete player, the best center, the MVP ( winning the 94 championship by himself and descent role players), and I one more thing, THE BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME OF BASKETBALL.. yes, he is better than MJ and if I could go back in time to the Draft, I wouldn't even hesitate in taking him before Michael..

[Deckard]

I agree That Russel and Chamberlain are great centers, but they could only score and rebound.. and the time that they played in lacked great centers to compete against.. they played against midgets and did great things.. but Hakeem could do everything.. everything, what do you want ? points? Rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals? Post ups? fade aways? threes ( the one in the finals :D )?.. Hakeem had a Quadruple Double once, Hakeem is the all-time leaderin blocks... I know a lot would disagree, but Hakeem is the best complete player, the best center, the MVP ( winning the 94 championship by himself and descent role players), and I one more thing, THE BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME OF BASKETBALL.. yes, he is better than MJ and if I could go back in time to the Draft, I wouldn't even hesitate in taking him before Michael..
It's great to have a passion for a player, especially Olajuwon, but you're a bit off-base about Chamberlain. Being tired of hearing critcism about just the sort of thing you mentioned (although both Wilt and Russell blocked one hell of a lot of shots. The stat wasn't kept in those days.), Wilt decided he'd lead the league in assists for a season, just to shut people up about being a "ball hog."

You know what? He did it.

[RocketsMac]

It's great to have a passion for a player, especially Olajuwon, but you're a bit off-base about Chamberlain. Being tired of hearing critcism about just the sort of thing you mentioned (although both Wilt and Russell blocked one hell of a lot of shots. The stat wasn't kept in those days.), Wilt decided he'd lead the league in assists for a season, just to shut people up about being a "ball hog."

You know what? He did it.
you have a good point, and I really think that Wilt is one heck of a player.. but I think you got me wrong, I didnot say that Wilt was a ballhog and he sucks, I just said that Hakeem did so many great things in the age of dominant centers (The Admiral, Shaq, Ewing to name a few) ..plus he carried a whole team on his shoulders for the 94 Championship ( he did the same thing in 95 but he had Clyde..)

[rimrocker]

Put Dream on any of those Celtic teams and they win at least as many championships as they did with Bill. Put Dream on any Wilt team and they win at least as many as Wilt won. Put Wilt or Bill on that first Rockets championship team and it's questionable whether they win.

[RocketsMac]

Put Dream on any of those Celtic teams and they win at least as many championships as they did with Bill. Put Dream on any Wilt team and they win at least as many as Wilt won. Put Wilt or Bill on that first Rockets championship team and it's questionable whether they win.
great post man, now that's what I am talking about... ;)

[Parlett316]

I agree That Russel and Chamberlain are great centers, but they could only score and rebound.. and the time that they played in lacked great centers to compete against.. they played against midgets and did great things.. but Hakeem could do everything.. everything, what do you want ? points? Rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals? Post ups? fade aways? threes ( the one in the finals :D )?.. Hakeem had a Quadruple Double once, Hakeem is the all-time leaderin blocks... I know a lot would disagree, but Hakeem is the best complete player, the best center, the MVP ( winning the 94 championship by himself and descent role players), and I one more thing, THE BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME OF BASKETBALL.. yes, he is better than MJ and if I could go back in time to the Draft, I wouldn't even hesitate in taking him before Michael..

Saying Russell and Chamberlain couldn't block shots is pretty ignorant. I'll let that slide since you showered my favorite player with praise and adulation.

[RocketsMac]

Saying Russell and Chamberlain couldn't block shots is pretty ignorant. I'll let that slide since you showered my favorite player with praise and adulation.
thanks ;) .. he is my favorite player too..and he is the best player to ever play the game..but you got me wrong.. I didn't say that Russell and Chamberlain couldn't block shots.. I just said that Hakeem did so many more things than Wilt and Bill and he carried a whole team to the championship by himself..

[Kyrodis]

I agree That Russel and Chamberlain are great centers, but they could only score and rebound.. and the time that they played in lacked great centers to compete against.. they played against midgets and did great things.. but Hakeem could do everything.. everything, what do you want ? points? Rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals? Post ups? fade aways? threes ( the one in the finals :D )?.. Hakeem had a Quadruple Double once, Hakeem is the all-time leaderin blocks...
Huh...so an era with guys like Russell, Chamberlain, Reed, Bellamy, and a young Alcindor is one that "lacked great centers"? You've gotta be kidding me.

You might just be too young to realize this, but those guys almost routinely got into double digit blocks or steals. If blocks/steals were kept on the stat sheet in those days, I can guarantee that both Chamberlan and Russell would've had at least one (if not more) quadruple double. Moreover, they'd definitely be ahead of Hakeem in the blocks category.

That one year Wilt decided to lead the league in assists (I think it was 1968), I'm willing to bet he would've had a quintuple double in there somewhere, or at least come close several times.

It's good to hear that someone is such a huge fan of Hakeem. He's my favorite player of all time as well, but to downplay the things that Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell accomplished as mere "dominance against midgets in an era without any great centers" is absolutely ridiculous.

Put Dream on any of those Celtic teams and they win at least as many championships as they did with Bill. Put Dream on any Wilt team and they win at least as many as Wilt won. Put Wilt or Bill on that first Rockets championship team and it's questionable whether they win.
Sorry, but it's really difficult to compare eras the way you're doing it. Put Hakeem on the teams back then, and he'd probably get called for travelling every time he attempted a Dream Shake. It doesn't matter that he technically isn't travelling. Referees were a lot more stringent with the rules back then.

[RocketsMac]

Huh...so an era with guys like Russell, Chamberlain, Reed, Bellamy, and a young Alcindor is one that "lacked great centers"? You've gotta be kidding me.

You might just be too young to realize this, but those guys almost routinely got into double digit blocks or steals. If blocks/steals were kept on the stat sheet in those days, I can guarantee that both Chamberlan and Russell would've had at least one (if not more) quadruple double. Moreover, they'd definitely be ahead of Hakeem in the blocks category.

That one year Wilt decided to lead the league in assists (I think it was 1968), I'm willing to bet he would've had a quintuple double in there somewhere, or at least come close several times.

It's good to hear that someone is such a huge fan of Hakeem. He's my favorite player of all time as well, but to downplay the things that Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell accomplished as mere "dominance against midgets in an era without any great centers" is absolutely ridiculous.
well, you are right, I am too young :rolleyes: and I started watching basketball in the prime years of Dream (around 95 & 96).. but I am in love with the game and I love old school basketball more than anything else.. I've watched some Wilt games on NBA TV and other sources but those games were in Wilt's last years ... and I also spent a good time researching about Wilt and Russell and I was amazed with things they could do... you are right, I could've made a mistake in saying that their stats weren't good.. but my point is that Hakeem has a greater effect on a game than any of them.. and I also believe that Russell and Chamberlain had some really good players with them.. but all Dream had is a bunch of average "role players" that could hit their open jumper ( and dont get me wrong, I am talking about the 94 championship.. he had clyde and more in 95.. and I am not saying that Otis, kenny, Robert, Maxwell are not good.. I am just saying that it's not like Shaq and Kobe, Jordan and Pippen, it's Hakeem and "others").....

[RocketsMac]

Huh...so an era with guys like Russell, Chamberlain, Reed, Bellamy, and a young Alcindor is one that "lacked great centers"? You've gotta be kidding me.

Those guys almost routinely got into double digit blocks or steals. If blocks/steals were kept on the stat sheet in those days, I can guarantee that both Chamberlan and Russell would've had at least one (if not more) quadruple double. Moreover, they'd definitely be ahead of Hakeem in the blocks category.

That one year Wilt decided to lead the league in assists (I think it was 1968), I'm willing to bet he would've had a quintuple double in there somewhere, or at least come close several times.

It's good to hear that someone is such a huge fan of Hakeem. He's my favorite player of all time as well, but to downplay the things that Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell accomplished as mere "dominance against midgets in an era without any great centers" is absolutely ridiculous.


Sorry, but it's really difficult to compare eras the way you're doing it. Put Hakeem on the teams back then, and he'd probably get called for travelling every time he attempted a Dream Shake. It doesn't matter that he technically isn't travelling. Referees were a lot more stringent with the rules back then.
one more thing, I think rimrocker made a great comparison and I think it's valid because the level of atleticism and Defense peeked in Hakeem's era..so I think that life would've been a little harder for Wilt and Bill if they played in Hakeem's era.. and please correct me if I am wrong, because I am pretty sure your experience is much better and longer than mine..

[Kyrodis]

one more thing, I think rimrocker made a great comparison and I think it's valid because the level of atleticism and Defense peeked in Hakeem's era..so I think that life would've been a little harder for Wilt and Bill if they played in Hakeem's era.. and please correct me if I am wrong, because I am pretty sure your experience is much better and longer than mine..
Oh I agree with rimrocker as far as the fact that Russell and Chamberlain wouldn't have been quite as effective in today's game...but only if you go back in a time machine, pick them up, and drop them off here.

I think they'd still be dominant players (especially Chamberlain, who at 7'1" and 260 lbs would still a powerful big man by today's standards), but naturally they'd never average 20+ rebounds a game or 50 points a game etc.

However, that's exactly why I'm not a big fan of comparing eras in general. Given the same amount of exposure to higher nutritional and fitness levels, the technological strides, and heightened level of play, wouldn't someone born with the same genetic makeup of guys like Russell/Chamberlain also be dominant in today's game? I'd imagine so...

[Drizno]

I have said this before and Ill say it again...
IMO Michael Jordan is the most underrated player ever.

[RocketsMac]

I have said this before and Ill say it again...
IMO Michael Jordan is the most underrated player ever.
underrated ?? huh ??

[StupidMoniker]

I have said this before and Ill say it again...
IMO Michael Jordan is the most underrated player ever.
Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and yours stinks.

[geeimsobored]

underrated ?? huh ??

I guess having the global media declare him the greatest basketball player ever really doesn't do him justice.

Granted there are facets of his game that people don't talk about enough. For example, I think a lot of average people forget how great a defender he was.

Whatever, its a moot issue, we can't really give him any more props then he already has.

[max14]

I agree That Russel and Chamberlain are great centers, but they could only score and rebound.. and the time that they played in lacked great centers to compete against.. they played against midgets and did great things.. but Hakeem could do everything.. everything, what do you want ? points? Rebounds? Assists? Blocks? Steals? Post ups? fade aways? threes ( the one in the finals :D )?.. Hakeem had a Quadruple Double once, Hakeem is the all-time leaderin blocks... I know a lot would disagree, but Hakeem is the best complete player, the best center, the MVP ( winning the 94 championship by himself and descent role players), and I one more thing, THE BEST PLAYER TO EVER PLAY THE GAME OF BASKETBALL.. yes, he is better than MJ and if I could go back in time to the Draft, I wouldn't even hesitate in taking him before Michael..

wow this is not right.

say this on a rocket board, not anywhere else.

[aussie rocket]

wow this is not right.

say this on a rocket board, not anywhere else.


Here here