Cato, SAR, Draft picks and other assorted Gum drops.....

[ROCKET!!!]

Thoughts on a couple of possible trades.....

Would you do these, from either team's perspective????

Trade #1:

Rocks send Cato + picks #18, #23, our first round pick in 2004 draft + dismiss obligation of 2 - 2nd round picks owed by Chicago (Bryce Drew trade).

Chicago sends Fizer, Miller (with opt out) and pick #4 to Rocks.

NOTE #1: We may have to throw in KT to make this palatable, but 3 - #1s and 2 - #2s plus Cato for 1 - #1 (yes #4) plus Fizer and Miller (both of which they don't want) may be enough.

NOTE #2: Would you still do it if they want KT as well?

NOTE #3: If we could work this out, would you ask Sacramento if they were interested in a sign and trade for Webber with Fizer and Miller?

NOTE #4: Would you keep Miller and Fizer and go after Webber anyway?

Trade #2:

Rocks send picks #13, our first round pick for 2002 (I expect the Rocks to make the playoffs in the 6-8 seed. This means our pick would still be about #18 next year), Detroit's first round draft obligation to us (How much do you think Vancouver would love to have Detroit owing them a pick right now?), Walt Williams
and Jason Collier.

Vancouver sends #6 pick and SAR to Rocks.

NOTE #1: We would still owe the Griz a future first round pick from the Francis trade.

NOTE #2: Williams contract ends next year freeing $5,000,000 in cap room for Griz allowing them to go after a quality free agent the first year they are in Memphis.

NOTE #3: this gives the Griz a first round pick in next year's draft held in Memphis.

NOTE #4: I believe (may be wrong) Detroit's obligation to us does have a time limit and I don't see Detroit getting markedly better anytime soon. Meaning that Vancouver will eventually have Detroit over a barrel sometime in the future.

If these trades went through, which, of course, I highly doubt, who do you take with the picks? If Curry fell to #4 do you grab him. If Brown is available at #4 do you go after him and forget Curry or Diop even if you get Webber and keep Fizer? Do you draft Richardson at #6 as a backup for Mobley?


I know this is a long post, but it seems to cover just about all I have read in several threads and heard as possible trades.

This is just food for thought so.....

Thoughts??????

ROCKET!!!

------------------


[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[Mango]

......This means our pick would still be about #18 next year and would meet Vancouver's agreement with Detroit.....


A #18 next year from any other team does not fulfill the obligations of their Detroit trade.


Mango

------------------
Get it right or just don't do it!
Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated.
Start more Webber threads!

[kbm]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mango:

......This means our pick would still be about #18 next year and would meet Vancouver's agreement with Detroit.....


A #18 next year from any other team does not fulfill the obligations of their Detroit trade.


Mango

</font>

That is correct. They must give up their own pick next year unless it is in the top 5, and the year after that they must give up their own pick with no protection clauses at all.

If I am the grizz, I wait until the last year unless they play much better next year and get into the playoffs. I think in the next two years they should make the playoffs anyway.

------------------
I am an invisible man.


[This message has been edited by kbm (edited June 05, 2001).]

[ROCKET!!!]

Mango,
My understanding of their trade was that it had to be #18 or higher, but was now no longer lottery protected up to #5.

I am pretty sure this is right.

If not, the questions still stand on their own.


ROCKET!!!

----------
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Not having one is worse.
Next time try using yours!

------------------


[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[CriscoKidd]

Nice to see you edited your post jeering Mango. Mango provided valuable info by showing an error in your reasoning(at least for the 2nd proposal).

Mango, get in my bell-ay!!!

------------------
snap crackle pop

[ROCKET!!!]

CriscoKidd,
Okay, but his tag line reads pretty harsh...

Get it right or just don't do it!

It seems quite condescending, hence my initial response.

Mango,

Not anything ugly meant, but you may want to think about changing that footer.

ROCKET!!!

------------------

[Mango]

Taylor is not mentioned, so it is taken that he is gone.

Miller/Collier/Dream?
Fizer/#4
Walt/Lanhgi/Bullard
Cat/SA?
Francis/Mooch

#4/Collier/Dream?
Webber/KT
Walt/Lanhgi/Bullard
Cat/SA?
Francis/Mooch


#4/Collier
Webber/Fizer
Walt/Lanhgi
Cat/SA?
Francis/Mooch

Webber's basic dilemma is:

1. He wants to be on a team with a physical player to take care of the dirty work for him which Vlade can't. Aging Flopper != enforcer

2. He wants good overall talent on the roster to make sure the team is competitive now.

3. He wants max money.

Each possible destination for Webber will be lacking in at least one of the desired criteria. The roster compositions with a young #4 pick (Brown, Curry, Diop et al) does not provide the true physical presence and experience level to make the Rockets a force now as Webber desires.


Mango

------------------
Get it right or just don't do it!
Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated.
Start more Webber threads!

[This message has been edited by Mango (edited June 05, 2001).]

[ROCKET!!!]

Mango,
As far as team composition goes, I was thinking more along the lines of....

M. Jackson/Diop or Curry (#4)/ Miller or Hakeem
Webber/Fizer or KT/Taylor
SAR/Langhi/Bullard
Mobley/Richardson(#6)
Francis/Norris

Free agent signings were not included in the above post. Remeber Cato and Williams are gone. Webber gets their cap space and we have room for other signings. What they may be, who knows!

I agree he wants beef in the middle to take off the heat. Maybe that is Jackson, maybe not, but a young 300lb guy from the draft would not hurt.

Clearly, this would be a team built primarily for speed 1-3 (one to blow past a zone in transition before it is set), outside shooting and breaking down a defense by slashing to the basket.

I do agree, this team is two maybe three years away max. The problem for Webber is, what contender can afford him and still be a contender? If this is priority #1, Sacramento is really his best option. If he desires a good team that will be a great team in a couple years plus eventually develop that inside guy to take the heat off, then the above would be the team.

ROCKET!!!

------------------


[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[CriscoKidd]

no prob ROCKET!!, Mango is a cool dude though, he's just trying his best to see the board not turn into ESPN trash. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif

Since I already posted in this thread, might as well throw in my 2 cents.

I really think getting SAR and Webber isn't more than a pipe dream. SAR, Webber, and Jackson is impossible, imo.

how about this: send Walt + Cato + 23 for: Miller + Artest maybe.

draft a center with # 13 and best available player at #18.

I think this might free up enough cap room to sign Mooch. sign MO(not to ridiculous moolaa though) pursue Webber HARD.

put on the floor this lineup:

Francis/Mooch
Mobes/Artest
Mo/Langhi/Bull
Webber/KT
Miller/Draft pick(until he produces)/Collier

+ whatever draft pick

Webber has said that he doesn't want to play center. WEll he wouldn't have to, as that trio should be capable of manning the center spot. If the Rockets could somehow steal Raef from Issel, that would be better. the Rockets have stated before that they want to keep Mo, Webber or no, and maybe he could play the 3. He certainly has the shootin, dribblin, and rebounding skills of a sf( http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

If getting Webber falls through, well then, the Rockets would have to try something else, but oh well. This isn't a dream team by any sense, but it is very plausible and could very well be a contending team.

------------------
snap crackle pop

[This message has been edited by CriscoKidd (edited June 05, 2001).]

[ROCKET!!!]

CrisoKidd,
I'm with you, Mango replied nicely with his follow-up.

I'm also with you on the ESPN trash stuff. I've been here for a long time also (Ignore the low post count, something happened with my account - Clutch had to issue a new password and somehow my account came back as zero posts. Oh well, thats okay! Otherwise you might think I was just blabby! Hahahahaha!!!)and I can't abide the instant slash and burn that happens in some of these threads.

Yes, I think Jackson may be a strech, but SAR and Webber are clear targets.

ROCKET!!!

------------------


[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[Clutch]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ROCKET!!!:
My understanding of their trade was that it had to be #18 or higher, but was now no longer lottery protected up to #5.

I am pretty sure this is right.</font>

Actually the Grizzlies have to give up their pick next year and the only thing saving them is the pick being in the top 5.... the top 18 thing is no longer in effect - the Grizzlies can not give up any other pick but their own now. I believe they have the option of not giving the pick to Detroit, but if they don't, then the Pistons get the first round pick from Vancouver in 2003 outright unless it's the #1 pick.

Thus there is no extra value in a mid-first rounder for Vancouver.

------------------
NOTHING BUT .NET
CLUTCHCITY.NET (http://www.clutchcity.net)

[ROCKET!!!]

Clutch,
Thanks for the FYI.
Mango clarified already.

ROCKET!!!

------------------

[ROCKET!!!]

CriscoKidd,
Do you think Webber would go for the team proposed without Jackson?

I know this is off the subject, but MAN!, Is it ever going to stop raining?????

ROCKET!!!

------------------

[Zyfa]

I'm I'm thinking with the "Powers that be" the Griz will just make it in the top 3 next year. Moving to a new city the NBA will wanta build a strong fan base asap! Especally if there hosting the draft.
The Pistons will get a later pick.



------------------
Lose it? I didn't lose it; it wasn't like oops where did my job go!!! I quit!

[tacoma park legend]

Crisco, I like the idea of getting Miller and Artest. Artest would be an ideal backup shooting guard. This guy has completely shut down guys like Grant Hill, and the Rockets wouldn't need him to score IMO. He's on Floyd's bad side too, so he is likely to be moved.

------------------

[CriscoKidd]

Rocket!!, I don't think Jackson is the kind of guy Webb has in mind of playing beside anyway. Marc doesn't really play D. He can score and get rebounds, but I doubt he is the banger Webber ideally wants to play beside. But Webb isn't going to play beside any tough inside center presence wherever he goes if he leaves Sactown. There are how many tough defensive rebounding centers in the league? Like maybe 5, and we don't have one, and neither are the teams courting him(NY would lose Camby). He would have to settle for a good core of center by committee if he comes here, unless Hakeem decides to take a paycut or if the Rocks can steal LaFrentz from Issel.

Zyfa, I wouldn't be surprised if the Grizz ended up being in the top 3 next year. They sucked with some good talent this year and their number 6 pick aint gonna land them in the playoffs in the west.

tpl, I kinda like Artest too. Swingman who is a good backup. Won't get you a lot of baskets, but won't demand the ball either. Kinda like a cheap Shandy.

------------------
snap crackle pop

[ROCKET!!!]

CriscoKidd,
My point exactly....
We are in violent agreement!

Hence, my desire to move on up to the eastside to that deluxe apt. in the sky....

Read Curry or Diop here

#4 will certainly get us there

With a year or three of seasoning either of these guys will be the 300lb. banger we desire.

This would seem to work well for Webber...as he gets older the young guy becomes more seasoned and takes over the middle. Further RT, Mr. Mean and Webber can train this guy to play their game, the way they want it played.

I still like

Curry or Diop/Miller ($5.5 mil) or A-Large-One
Webber/Fizer or KT or Mo T
SAR/Langhi/Bull
Cat/Richardson
Francis/Mooch

and one free agent to be signed later (could be Mo).

ROCKET!!!
--------------
Its good to have a Dream!
But we lost ours!

------------------


[This message has been edited by ROCKET!!! (edited June 05, 2001).]

[rslay]

Is there any danger that Chicago would swap Miller to Denver for LaFrentz and freeze the Rockers out? Or would the benefits of a 3 way trade including the Rockets win out? I don't think Denver is under the cap, so it would be more complicated.

[drpepper]

M. Jackson is6'10"
so is C.Web.
problem
I think Webber will look at the 76's HARD.


------------------

[Mango]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by drpepper:
M. Jackson is6'10"
so is C.Web.
problem
I think Webber will look at the 76's HARD.


</font>

Explain the logistics of Webber getting Max money and playing for Philly.


Mango

------------------
Get it right or just don't do it!
Resistance is futile....you will be assimilated.
Start more Webber threads!

[today]

Speaking of draft picks, what are the conditions around the pick that is owed to us for giving up Mirsad Turkan?

------------------
"You couldn't have stuck a pin up his @#! with a jackhammer. Yeah, I'd say he was pretty tight."
-- Barkley on Minnesota's Chris Carr(thx RocksMillenium)after he missed a game winning free-throw.

[ROCKET!!!]

today,
JuanValdez says 1st rounder by 2004. Can be anyone's pick owned by Detroit. No lottery protection.

gone!

ROCKET!!!

------------------

[Hottoddie]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mango:

Webber's basic dilemma is:

1. He wants to be on a team with a physical player to take care of the dirty work for him which Vlade can't.

Mango

</font>

I've got the answer then. Let's just resign Pig. He'll do the dirty work so Webber can get all the glory without getting dirty. That kinda sounds like my former boss. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif Calling Pig, where are you? Here piggy piggy piggy. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif



------------------