Has America 'Jumped the Shark'?

[Rocket River]

In your opinion is America [the USA] on the upswing and growing stronger
or
has it leveled off
or
is it on the downswing
as a society


Are we living during America's highest point?
Starting on a downward trend?
or is the best yet to come?


Rocket River

[MR. MEOWGI]

I think outsourcing will kill us.

[oomp]

I think outsourcing will kill us.

That and the fact that China is entering it's industrial revolution. We won't have it bad in America, but our time at the top is numbered.

[RocketMan Tex]

America jumped the shark somewhere between 1975 and 1985. It's been all downhill since then.

[A-Train]

I think the phrase "jump the shark" has officially jumped the shark...

[mateo]

Ask Hari Seldon.

[Deckard]

I think the phrase "jump the shark" has officially jumped the shark...
That, and what RMT said.



Keep D&D Civil.

[bigtexxx]

I think outsourcing will kill us.

signed,
1985

[thegary]

i think we've rolled into a big pothole. we will rebound because the world needs us to do so. we live in a global community whether we want to admit it or not. i think this is a good thing. overall, i think minorities in this country have it better than they used to and this trend should continue. we are still relatively young as a country and the thinking that we will one day fall like rome is absurd. we are all connected now for better or worse and the question we should be asking is whether or not the world has jumped the shark or will we get it together and agree to disagree.

[RocketMan Tex]

That, and what RMT said.



Keep D&D Civil.

Thanks.

I had such high hopes after Watergate.

I saw this country survive the resignation of a President amid corruption and scandal. I thought we could get no lower, and would rebound.

I was dead wrong.

[RocketMan Tex]

signed,
1985

:D

Only trouble is, in 1985, blue collar manufacturing jobs were being lost.

Nowadays, white collar, $50-100K a year jobs are being replaced by minimum-wage jobs at your local burger joint.

What's going to save us this time around, oh great Sultan of the Trickle Down?

[RocketMan Tex]

we are still relatively young as a country and the thinking that we will one day fall like rome is absurd.

Thinking that the USA will last 1,000 years like the Roman Empire is absurd.

[Rocket River]

I think the phrase "jump the shark" has officially jumped the shark...

:mad: :D


America jumped the shark somewhere between 1975 and 1985. It's been all downhill since then....

hhmmm The Carter years and the 1st Reagan Years?

I don't recall that being such a HIGH TIME

Rocket RIver

[No Worries]

We are still the land of opportunity.

[MR. MEOWGI]

signed,
1985

Oh I forgot, it's illegal immigration that's the problem. BUILD THE WALL!

[bigtexxx]

:D

Only trouble is, in 1985, blue collar manufacturing jobs were being lost.

Nowadays, white collar, $50-100K a year jobs are being replaced by minimum-wage jobs at your local burger joint.

What's going to save us this time around, oh great Sultan of the Trickle Down?

See, this is where the short-sighted liberals' thinking breaks down. They are unable to comprehend how the economy continues to BOOM (robust GDP growth, unemployment at an extremely healthy 4.7%) even as jobs are "shipped off" for people in places like China to make a 25 cents per hour and live in a company dorm and like it. Innovation is something that liberals simply cannot envision in their brains. Flashback 20 years ago and companies like Microsoft, Dell, Google, etc either never existed or were just starting up with a handful of employees. Now they all employ thousands of people in the US. Huh, whoddathunkit 20 years ago? The US economy, with its capital, legal and employment structures are by far the best in the world and will allow this country to continue to prosper for a long time.

The liberal talking points are simply intended to scare people and garner votes for protectionist candidates. yawn.

[MR. MEOWGI]

We are still the land of opportunity.

until it's outsourced.

[tigermission1]

No Worries:

We are still the land of outsourced opportunity.

There, I fixed it for you ;)

[thegary]

Thinking that the USA will last 1,000 years like the Roman Empire is absurd.


either i didn't explain myself very well or you didn't get my point

[RocketMan Tex]

See, this is where the short-sighted liberals' thinking breaks down. They are unable to comprehend how the economy continues to BOOM (robust GDP growth, unemployment at an extremely healthy 4.7%) even as jobs are "shipped off" for people in places like China to make a 25 cents per hour and live in a company dorm and like it. Innovation is something that liberals simply cannot envision in their brains. Flashback 20 years ago and companies like Microsoft, Dell, Google, etc either never existed or were just starting up with a handful of employees. Now they all employ thousands of people in the US. Huh, whoddathunkit 20 years ago? The US economy, with its capital, legal and employment structures are by far the best in the world and will allow this country to continue to prosper for a long time.

The liberal talking points are simply intended to scare people and garner votes for protectionist candidates. yawn.

Care to answer my question, instead of spewing your ideological spin? The only boom in this economy is going into the pockets of CEOs and the government. When do the people get to benefit from the "boom", as they did during the 1990s? Would the answer be when a Democrat is elected President, and we finally get a balanced budget again?

Also.....I find your sentence The liberal talking points are simply intended to scare people and garner votes for protectionist candidates absolutely comical.

Speaking of scaring people, how come we haven't seen this since Dubya's re-selection:

http://demon.twinflame.org/images/blogpics/ratings.gif

I guess he doesn't need it to garner votes any more, does he?

[Mulder]

I think the internet has slowed America's political decline. There are two disctinct political groups in America: Those that are ignorant of current events and apathetic because of it and those that are well informed and very concerned about the political process. Because of the internet I have found that the gap between these two groups has gotten much smaller.

[bigtexxx]

Care to answer my question, instead of spewing your ideological spin? The only boom in this economy is going into the pockets of CEOs and the government. When do the people get to benefit from the "boom", as they did during the 1990s? Would the answer be when a Democrat is elected President, and we finally get a balanced budget again?

Also.....I find your sentence The liberal talking points are simply intended to scare people and garner votes for protectionist candidates absolutely comical.

I answered your silly question. I said that innovation which will come about through America's superior legal, capital and employment structures will save us as it's done before. The liberals are too shortsighted to envision the future. They see a zero-sum pie than simply loses when a job goes overseas. That's an ignorant view.

[RocketMan Tex]

I answered your silly question. I said that innovation which will come about through America's superior legal, capital and employment structures will save us as it's done before. The liberals are too shortsighted to envision the future. They see a zero-sum pie than simply loses when a job goes overseas. That's an ignorant view.

So, envision the future for we the shortsighted. What will the innovation be this time around? More jobs in the legal field to represent indicted Republican Congressmen? A new way to mass produce fast food? Do tell! :D

[No Worries]

We are still the land of outsourced opportunity.
Outsourcing and globalization are going to happen and nothing is going to stop it. The only questions are how it is done and how fast.

Think of this. How many Indians in the US are dying to go back to India? The Indian economy is booming. Even though salaries are 20% of what they are here, that is enough to provide for a high quality of life in India. In India, they are also closer to their family and the culture with which they grew up and are comfortable.

[Agent94]

So, envision the future for we the shortsighted. What will the innovation be this time around? More jobs in the legal field to represent indicted Republican Congressmen? A new way to mass produce fast food? Do tell! :D


Fusion, Nanotech, Genetics.

[bigtexxx]

Outsourcing and globalization are going to happen and nothing is going to stop it. The only questions are how it is done and how fast.

Think of this. How many Indians in the US are dying to go back to India? The Indian economy is booming. Even though salaries are 20% of what they are here, that is enough to provide for a high quality of life in India. In India, they are also closer to their family and the culture with which they grew up and are comfortable.

There are way more coming here everyday than are going back. The quality of life there compared to here is still night and day. India's a freaking dump.

[Mulder]

Think of this. How many Indians in the US are dying to go back to India?

Actually, it is a very common practice to do the following:

Oldest brother in an Indian family raises enough money with the help of family to come to America. He gets a job that you commonly see Indians doing (gas station worker, convenience stote, etc.) and lives like a pauper here. [It should be noted that a pauper in the US is still better than his life was probably like in India.] He saves like a madman until he get s around 60-80 thousand dollars. (Single person, living with only the bare essentials and working like mad, it doesn't take as long as you might think, maybe 5-6 years.)
He then takes his money, transfers it back to India and lives like a king.

The next brother follows suit.

The owner of an Indian restaurant told me this. He was brother number 5. He was 2 years out from going back.

[Deckard]

Outsourcing and globalization are going to happen and nothing is going to stop it. The only questions are how it is done and how fast.

Think of this. How many Indians in the US are dying to go back to India? The Indian economy is booming. Even though salaries are 20% of what they are here, that is enough to provide for a high quality of life in India. In India, they are also closer to their family and the culture with which they grew up and are comfortable.
No Worries, you might be surprised. India had an ancient, rich, and vibrant culture. That a native of India might like to return home, with what is a fortune to average Indians, doesn't surprise me at all. Nice post, Mulder. I was lucky enough to spend some months in India, and it is a facinating country.



Keep D&D Civil.

[SamFisher]

No Worries, you might be surprised. India had an ancient, rich, and vibrant culture. That a native of India might like to return home, with what is a fortune to average Indians, doesn't surprise me at all. Nice post, Mulder. I was lucky enough to spend some months in India, and it is a facinating country.



Keep D&D Civil.

Agree, many are returning home, my friend who lives in Dehli says its becoming increasingly common to see returning British & Canadian & American Indians; likewise one of the doctors that my mom worked with just moved back to Tamil Nadu -- living standards in many parts of India have now changed to allow this.

[Rocket River]

I guess the next question is: When was America's High Point?

Rocket River

[Deckard]

I guess the next question is: When was America's High Point?

Rocket River
November 20, 1963.



Keep D&D Civil.

[Fatty FatBastard]

November 20, 1963.



Keep D&D Civil.

What was that? The Cuban Missle Crisis? Or JFK's assassination?

[Deckard]

What was that? The Cuban Missle Crisis? Or JFK's assassination?
Google is your friend. :)



Keep D&D Civil.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Google is your friend. :)



Keep D&D Civil.

So you think the Cuban Missle Crisis was the peak of America? Wow.

[Mr. Clutch]

Nah, liberals have been saying this since the 1970's. This year they said it through movies.

Crash- America is racist
Brokeback Mountain- America hates gay people
Goodnight and Good Luck- America's government is suppressing free speach
Syriana- The CIA controls everything

[Mulder]

Wow.

I just had a very eye opening comment come from a Black friend of mine.

He said "White America is on the downswing, Black America is on the upswing."

I asked him to explain.

He said that White Amercian culture peaked in the 1960's. John Kennedy. Moon landing. Peace Movement. Etc.

From then on out, white culture has been slowly copying more and more of black culture.

Now it is completely obvious. Black culture sets the trends and they are maybe 20% of the population and Blacks are more equal now than they have ever been.

I asked what about the disparity between white and blacks economically?

He said, that's we are starting to arrive, we are not there yet. We are on the upswing. White america is on the downswing.

[RocketMan Tex]

So you think the Cuban Missle Crisis was the peak of America? Wow.

JFKs last day in Washington before the fateful trip to Texas.

[RocketMan Tex]

Nah, liberals have been saying this since the 1970's. This year they said it through movies.

Crash- America is racist
Brokeback Mountain- America hates gay people
Goodnight and Good Luck- America's government is suppressing free speach
Syriana- The CIA controls everything

The Passion of the Christ - America hates Jews

[RocketMan Tex]

Wow.

I just had a very eye opening comment come from a Black friend of mine.

He said "White America is on the downswing, Black America is on the upswing."

I asked him to explain.

He said that White Amercian culture peaked in the 1960's. John Kennedy. Moon landing. Peace Movement. Etc.

From then on out, white culture has been slowly copying more and more of black culture.

Now it is completely obvious. Black culture sets the trends and they are maybe 20% of the population and Blacks are more equal now than they have ever been.

I asked what about the disparity between white and blacks economically?

He said, that's we are starting to arrive, we are not there yet. We are on the upswing. White america is on the downswing.

In some ways, he's right.

[No Worries]

No Worries, you might be surprised. India had an ancient, rich, and vibrant culture. That a native of India might like to return home, with what is a fortune to average Indians, doesn't surprise me at all.
The Indians I know/knew talk about eventually going home, but are staying put. As a matter of fact, the only Indian I know who went back had his job out-sourced to India. He then lost his work visa here and had no choice but to go back.

I probably don't know a statisctically relevant number of Indians here, so take it FWIW.

[oomp]

I guess the next question is: When was America's High Point?

Rocket River

It's tough to narrow down, because high points for some, will always be low points for others. Two times that stand out to me:

1870's with Edison and Bell inventing technology that would change the world.

1940's the "Golden Era" when we were our most productive.

[bigtexxx]

Wow.

I just had a very eye opening comment come from a Black friend of mine.

He said "White America is on the downswing, Black America is on the upswing."

I asked him to explain.

He said that White Amercian culture peaked in the 1960's. John Kennedy. Moon landing. Peace Movement. Etc.

From then on out, white culture has been slowly copying more and more of black culture.

Now it is completely obvious. Black culture sets the trends and they are maybe 20% of the population and Blacks are more equal now than they have ever been.

I asked what about the disparity between white and blacks economically?

He said, that's we are starting to arrive, we are not there yet. We are on the upswing. White america is on the downswing.

Umm aside from music and sports, what is he talking about? If anything blacks will be marginalized by the increasing number of Hispanics in this country in the not too distant future.

[No Worries]

1940's the "Golden Era" when we were our most productive.
Don't mean the 1950s when all of our major economic competitors were rebuillding their countries post WW2?

[JumpMan]

From then on out, white culture has been slowly copying more and more of black culture.

Now it is completely obvious. Black culture sets the trends and they are maybe 20% of the population and Blacks are more equal now than they have ever been.

I asked what about the disparity between white and blacks economically?

He said, that's we are starting to arrive, we are not there yet. We are on the upswing. White america is on the downswing.

That's a stupid way to look at it, "Look at all the white kids they're buying 50's records, and trying to dress like him, we're moving up in the world!", how does that help any black person outside 50 Cent and his family?

[oomp]

That's a stupid way to look at it, "Look at all the white kids they're buying 50's records, and trying to dress like him, we're moving up in the world!", how does that help any black person outside 50 Cent and his family?

Well in the past, Elvis would have stolen Fitty's music and made millions without Mr. Cent getting a dime. So it is a step up.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Well that all leads us to the real question... Has rap music "Jumped the Shark"?

[Mr. Clutch]

The Passion of the Christ - America hates Jews

LOL. Yes, that is how the liberals saw it.

Actually the only pro-America movie I think was Team America: World Police.

[Mr. Clutch]

Wow.

I just had a very eye opening comment come from a Black friend of mine.

He said "White America is on the downswing, Black America is on the upswing."

I asked him to explain.

He said that White Amercian culture peaked in the 1960's. John Kennedy. Moon landing. Peace Movement. Etc.

From then on out, white culture has been slowly copying more and more of black culture.

Now it is completely obvious. Black culture sets the trends and they are maybe 20% of the population and Blacks are more equal now than they have ever been.

I asked what about the disparity between white and blacks economically?

He said, that's we are starting to arrive, we are not there yet. We are on the upswing. White america is on the downswing.

If Black America believes that, then it's a good thing for America as a whole. If the people who have been traditionally in lower incomes think they can succeed, that is great. It's not a zero sum game though, one group does not have to move down for another to move up.

[RocketMan Tex]

LOL. Yes, that is how the liberals saw it.

Actually the only pro-America movie I think was Team America: World Police.


Proof positive that you are delusional.

Next.

[RocketMan Tex]

Actually the only pro-America movie I think was Team America: World Police.

Farenheit 9-11 was Pro-America. It was anti-George W. Bush.

[Mr. Clutch]

Farenheit 9-11 was Pro-America. It was anti-George W. Bush.

You said Next and then talked to me again.

I don't buy that Farenheit 9/11 was pro- America. It basically said we fought a war for an oil pipeline in Afghanistan.

Team America said America aint perfect but there are real terrorists out there that need to be fought. IMO. Which is why the liberal critics hated it so much. Again, IMO.

[Dubious]

March 11 , 2000 was the high point of The American era.
I was one rich muthafuka.

[Deckard]

JFKs last day in Washington before the fateful trip to Texas.
I intended to say 11/21/63, which was the day before. I saw him that day during his motorcade. He was about 25 feet away, in an open convertible. The next day the world ended, the world we knew, and America would never be the same.

One example that stands out is the walling off of the President from the American people. I think we see the culmination of that with George W. Bush, who's every public appearance is choreographed, stage managed, if you will. Nixon stayed at a remove from the public, which was why his late night visit to talk with Vietnam War protesters at the Lincoln Memorial made such an impact. He was gregarious compared to Bush, who has had fewer press conferences than any President in modern times.

Of course, one could argue that Bush is just like that, and would has been just as shy had Kennedy lived. In my opinion, had Kennedy lived, neither Bush would have become President.



Keep D&D Civil.

[Fatty FatBastard]

I intended to say 11/21/63, which was the day before. I saw him that day during his motorcade. He was about 25 feet away, in an open convertible. The next day the world ended, the world we knew, and America would never be the same.

One example that stands out is the walling off of the President from the American people. I think we see the culmination of that with George W. Bush, who's every public appearance is choreographed, stage managed, if you will. Nixon stayed at a remove from the public, which was why his late night visit to talk with Vietnam War protesters at the Lincoln Memorial made such an impact. He was gregarious compared to Bush, who has had fewer press conferences than any President in modern times.

Of course, one could argue that Bush is just like that, and would has been just as shy had Kennedy lived. In my opinion, had Kennedy lived, neither Bush would have become President.



Keep D&D Civil.

While I obviously disagree with your opinion about JFK being anything but a bad president, I will let that go. It's for a different discussion.

So, in your words, America reached its peak the Day before Kennedy died???

Innocence? Maybe a little, although I'm sure a lot of that was lost in the two World Wars.

But to say that was the peak of America is silly. And I'm being kind in my assessment.

[tigermission1]

Economically speaking, the 1950s (and early 1960's also) were the "golden era" in American history. For the most part, Americans could live well and afford the luxuries of life with only one income per household, a luxury most middle-class Americans can't afford today.

[mc mark]

I haven't read through the thread so forgive me if it's been mentioned.

People would say America landing on the moon was our peak.

And although it was really cool and I prophesied it in a dream before it happened. I disagree

I'm still naive and hopeful that we are still on the rise as a nation and a shinning light in a dark world. Although I feel like we've kind of strayed the last few years; Americans are hopeful, generally happy people.

[HayesStreet]

I think its easy to forget that the advantages in wages the developing world now enjoys is a temporary phenomenon. As more jobs ship in and development goes up there is more pressure for wage increases and SOL increases. Just as Japan took US manufacturing jobs, then started losing them to S Korea and Taiwan, then SK and Taiwan started losing them to China, so will China to the next in line. IMO the US is ahead of the curve, not behind it. Remember when the harbingers of doom held Japan high because of their high savings rate? Well guess what happened when they started making all that cash - their savings rate started going downward and their spending/consumerism went up. IMO Bigtexx is correct somewhat because innovation is the only sustainable engine of growth. And our system - our combination of entreprenurialism and transparency in the legal/financial system - is still the best for innovation across the board.

So no, we haven't 'jumped the shark.'

[FranchiseBlade]

Umm aside from music and sports, what is he talking about? If anything blacks will be marginalized by the increasing number of Hispanics in this country in the not too distant future.
Music, Fashion, Dance, A sigificant amount of film, etc. That culture is driven primarily by Black America.

The American culture that other nations are copying now isn't Frankie and Annette, it his hip hop. In fact with Jazz, swing dancing, even medical break throughs America's culture has largely been driven by black or African Americans.

[mc mark]

Music, Fashion, Dance, A sigificant amount of film, etc. That culture is driven primarily by Black America.

The American culture that other nations are copying now isn't Frankie and Annette, it his hip hop. In fact with Jazz, swing dancing, even medical break throughs America's culture has largely been driven by black or African Americans.

not to mention, they always got the goods! you know what I'm sayin?

;)

And our system - our combination of entreprenurialism and transparency in the legal/financial system - is still the best for innovation across the board.

good post hayes

For the last two years I've been working for a non-profit that writes international accounting standards that are slowly being adopted, voluntarily, by over 160 countries world wide. Guess which country we've had the hardest time convincing to join? the US

[ROXRAN]

Economically speaking, the 1950s (and early 1960's also) were the "golden era" in American history. For the most part, Americans could live well and afford the luxuries of life with only one income per household, a luxury most middle-class Americans can't afford today.


It's all Truman like I have said in the past...(albeit Democratic President, before the democrats eventually changed and got wickedly neo-demoized...)

[Deckard]

While I obviously disagree with your opinion about JFK being anything but a bad president, I will let that go. It's for a different discussion.

So, in your words, America reached its peak the Day before Kennedy died???

Innocence? Maybe a little, although I'm sure a lot of that was lost in the two World Wars.

But to say that was the peak of America is silly. And I'm being kind in my assessment.
You really have no concept of how Kennedy's assassination changed America, do you. You would have had to be old enough to have experienced the impact Jack Kennedy had on the country to appreciate how his murder affected the nation. Obviously, you are not. I saw him give one of his most remembered and important speeches at Rice Stadium. I wish you could have experienced that. You might have a bit of understanding about where I'm coming from.

I considered saying the date and the hour of Robert Kennedy's triumph in California, when he was murdered after he had left the podium. I think he would have made a much better President than his brother, but it is the cascade effect that came after that I'm talking about. Kennedy would have won the '68 election, Nixon wouldn't have been President, and Reagan, in my opinion, would never had been President as well.

The course of America's future was dramatically altered, and for the worse. That is my opinion as well. Instead of having Robert Kennedy as President until 1978, we get Nixon, then Ford, then Carter, Reagan, and Bush Senior, before 8 years of prosperity under Bill Clinton... which segues into our current nightmare, George W. Bush. America was never again what it was before JFK's murder, and just when his brother had the way open to restore much of what was lost, he was murdered as well.

There are profound moments in our history that leave it fundamentally altered from what it was, and what it could have been. We are affected by those moments today, and will be affected by them in the future.



Keep D&D Civil.

[Fatty FatBastard]

You really have no concept of how Kennedy's assassination changed America, do you. You would have had to be old enough to have experienced the impact Jack Kennedy had on the country to appreciate how his murder affected the nation. Obviously, you are not. I saw him give one of his most remembered and important speeches at Rice Stadium. I wish you could have experienced that. You might have a bit of understanding about where I'm coming from.

I considered saying the date and the hour of Robert Kennedy's triumph in California, when he was murdered after he had left the podium. I think he would have made a much better President than his brother, but it is the cascade effect that came after that I'm talking about. Kennedy would have won the '68 election, Nixon wouldn't have been President, and Reagan, in my opinion, would never had been President as well.

The course of America's future was dramatically altered, and for the worse. That is my opinion as well. Instead of having Robert Kennedy as President until 1978, we get Nixon, then Ford, then Carter, Reagan, and Bush Senior, before 8 years of prosperity under Bill Clinton... which segues into our current nightmare, George W. Bush. America was never again what it was before JFK's murder, and just when his brother had the way open to restore much of what was lost, he was murdered as well.

There are profound moments in our history that leave it fundamentally altered from what it was, and what it could have been. We are affected by those moments today, and will be affected by them in the future.

Keep D&D Civil.

And how old were you? 5?

Regardless, JFK's assassination was obviously a horrible thing. But to say it started the downfall of America is still absurd.

JFK's presidency has been widely documented as a poor one. More than likely, he would have finished his presidency at par, or worse, which certainly wouldn't have helped Bobby's chances much.

You certainly like to fantasize though.

[geeimsobored]

And how old were you? 5?

Regardless, JFK's assassination was obviously a horrible thing. But to say it started the downfall of America is still absurd.

JFK's presidency has been widely documented as a poor one. More than likely, he would have finished his presidency at par, or worse, which certainly wouldn't have helped Bobby's chances much.

You certainly like to fantasize though.

I'll just echo those sentiments a little more.

I think that Kennedy varies by generation. Those who grew up with him are virtually awestruck by his legacy. He was charismatic and charming for the time. He gave the famous speech at Rice on space exploration at a time in which Americans were looking for any encouragement or words of confidence in an era of fear and uncertainty.

Modern historians today however give Kennedy an average grade. The Cuban Missile Crisis, while working out in the end, put us literally on the brink of a nuclear war. The Bay of Pigs was a disaster. Relations with the Soviet Union got worse and some still wonder whether the space race was worth it.

As for America's downfall starting then, that's silly. The end of the Cold War brought America to its highest point in history. Never has America literally controlled the fate of international relations they way we did during the first Clinton years until now. (although it seems like we lost a lot of that influence with Bush's moves but that's another debate for another day) Not to mention the level of economic growth both during the Clinton years and even today (although it has become somewhat uneven and unequal now).

If you're going to argue that America is set for a collapse then today would be your starting point, not the Kennedy assassination.

[Rocket River]

I'll just echo those sentiments a little more.

I think that Kennedy varies by generation. Those who grew up with him are virtually awestruck by his legacy. He was charismatic and charming for the time. He gave the famous speech at Rice on space exploration at a time in which Americans were looking for any encouragement or words of confidence in an era of fear and uncertainty.

Modern historians today however give Kennedy an average grade. The Cuban Missile Crisis, while working out in the end, put us literally on the brink of a nuclear war. The Bay of Pigs was a disaster. Relations with the Soviet Union got worse and some still wonder whether the space race was worth it.

As for America's downfall starting then, that's silly. The end of the Cold War brought America to its highest point in history. Never has America literally controlled the fate of international relations they way we did during the first Clinton years until now. (although it seems like we lost a lot of that influence with Bush's moves but that's another debate for another day) Not to mention the level of economic growth both during the Clinton years and even today (although it has become somewhat uneven and unequal now).

If you're going to argue that America is set for a collapse then today would be your starting point, not the Kennedy assassination.


I think we may need further definition

does the highpoint represent ECONOMICS? Power in the international Field
or
something a little more subtle. . such as Social Highs? Moral highs?

Or . .. was it [or will it] be a point where all of these are at a high level
When was America Socially, Economically and Politically at its high point.

While the highs for each are different
perhaps we are looking at when they all were at an high together.

Some seem to see us now as the Lone SuperPower as our high point
near supremacy worldwide
other may see Roe V Wade as the start of moral Decay
other still see the JFK or even Nixon as the 1st steps to the political landscape going south into mire it is now.

Rocket River

[glynch]

Feeling No Pain
by Paul Krugman
The New York Times
March 6, 2006

President Bush's main purpose in visiting India seems to have been to promote nuclear proliferation. But he also had some kind words for outsourcing. And those words help explain something that I know deeply puzzles the administration's political gurus: Mr. Bush's dismal polling on economic issues.

Now the American economy isn't doing as well as Bush partisans think it is. In fact, since the end of the 2001 recession, the recovery in jobs, output and especially wages has been unusually weak by historical standards. Still, the economy is expanding, so it's impressive just how large a majority of Americans disapproves of Mr. Bush's economic management.

Why doesn't Mr. Bush get any economic respect? I think it's because most Americans sense, correctly, that he doesn't care about people like them. We're living in a time when many Americans are feeling economically insecure, but a tiny elite has been growing incredibly rich. And Mr. Bush's problem is that he identifies so totally with the lucky, wealthy few that in unscripted settings he can't manage even a few sentences of empathy with ordinary Americans. He doesn't feel your pain, and it shows.

Here's what Mr. Bush said in India, when someone raised the question of the political backlash against outsourcing: "Losing jobs is painful, so let's make sure people are educated so they can find -- fill the jobs of the 21st century. And let's make sure that there's pro-growth economic policies in place. What does that mean? That means low taxes; it means less regulation; it means fewer lawsuits; it means wise energy policy."

O.K., so you're a 50-year-old worker whose job has just been outsourced, and Mr. Bush tells you that you should go get a 21st-century education and rejoice in the joys of a lawsuit-free economy. Uh-huh.

Actually, Mr. Bush's remarks were even more off-key than they seem, coming during a visit to India. India's surge into world markets hasn't followed the pattern set by other developing nations, which started their export drive in low-tech industries like clothing. Instead, India has moved directly into industries that advanced countries like the United States thought were their exclusive turf. When Business Week put together a list of areas "where India has made an impact ... and where it's going next," that list consisted almost entirely of high-technology activities like software and chip design.

What this means is that American workers whose jobs are threatened by Indian competition are, in many cases, people who thought they already had acquired the skills to "fill the jobs of the 21st century" -- but have just discovered that Indians, who are paid about a tenth as much, also have those skills.

Am I saying that we should try to stop outsourcing? No. But if you don't feel conflicted about the effects of globalization, if you don't worry about the many losers from the process, you aren't paying attention. And American workers deserve a better answer to their concerns than yet another assertion that a rising tide raises all boats, because that's manifestly untrue.

The fact is that we're living in a time when most Americans are seeing little if any benefit from overall income growth, because their share of the economic pie is falling. Between 1979 and 2003, according to a recent research paper published by the I.R.S., the share of overall income received by the bottom 80 percent of taxpayers fell from 50 percent to barely over 40 percent. The main winners from this upward redistribution of income were a tiny, wealthy elite: more than half the income share lost by the bottom 80 percent was gained by just one-fourth of 1 percent of the population, people with incomes of at least $750,000 in 2003.

And those fortunate few are the only people Mr. Bush seems to care about. Look at what he had to offer after asserting, in effect, that workers get outsourced because they don't have the right education: lower taxes, deregulation and fewer lawsuits. Funny, that doesn't sound like "pro-growth" policy to me. Instead, it sounds like a wish list for wealthy individuals and big corporations.

Mr. Bush once joked that his base consisted of the "haves and the have-mores." But it wasn't much of a joke. His remarks in India show that he really can't imagine what it's like not to be a member of a privileged economic elite.

Topplebush.com
Posted: March 7, 2006

[RocketMan Tex]

You said Next and then talked to me again.

I don't buy that Farenheit 9/11 was pro- America. It basically said we fought a war for an oil pipeline in Afghanistan.

Team America said America aint perfect but there are real terrorists out there that need to be fought. IMO. Which is why the liberal critics hated it so much. Again, IMO.

:D

#1 - you obviously did not watch, or fell asleep, during "Farenheit 9-11". It said a little more than that, and the ironic fact is, in 2006, two years after the film was made, Michael Moore's "stretching of the truth" in that movie (and there was quite a bit of it, especially in regard to the Iraqi insurgency) has now all become the truth.

#2 - I think you are putting a little too much faith into Trey Parker and Matt Stone by attaching so much meaning to Team America. Do you think the claymation sex scene had anything to say about fighting terrorists? LOL! But, believe what you want to. America is a free country, and that is what makes it great. However, I suggest you go rent "Bowling for Columbine" and pay particular attention to Michael Moore's interview with Matt Stone in the movie. You'll then see why the second paragraph of your post has completely "jumped the shark" on this thread.

[oomp]

Don't mean the 1950s when all of our major economic competitors were rebuillding their countries post WW2?

The 50's was the result of the industrial progress made in the latter half of the 40's and it was all due to WWII. That''s why I said every "high" point also involved "low" points. I would like to think our highest point was the time we were attaining the prosperity we are known of, rather than the time when we were living off of it.

[Deckard]

And how old were you? 5?

Regardless, JFK's assassination was obviously a horrible thing. But to say it started the downfall of America is still absurd.

JFK's presidency has been widely documented as a poor one. More than likely, he would have finished his presidency at par, or worse, which certainly wouldn't have helped Bobby's chances much.

You certainly like to fantasize though.
Your immaturity doesn't surprise me, Fatty. Sad, but unsurprising. I'm closer to 60 than to 50. Does that help? As for the poorly named poll, I haven't voted in it, nor have I even said that what I was talking about, "started the downfall of America." That is your fevered contribution.

I think a fundamental shift in America occured with the deaths of the Kennedy brothers and Dr. King... a shift away from a more progressive democracy that had begun evolving from the post-WWII/McCarthy era of political oppression, a more progressive America moving beyond the striving of those men and women (including my parents), scarred by the Great Depression, who had experienced an unprecendented shared event with World War II, and came out of it determined to never allow another Great Depression to happen again, to never be poor again, to spare their children and grandchildren from such an experience, who's hard work allowed progressive ideas to finally florish. Ideas like civil rights, women's rights, Kennedy's Peace Corps and a host of other programs enacted by LBJ after Kennedy was murdered.

The country instead has turned towards a democracy completely obsessed with the cult of the selfishness of the individual within the corporate milieu, at the expense of society. The promotion of that creed of individual greed at the expense of those less fortunate, and the worship of the quarterly profit report above all else. George W. Bush's Administration to the ultimate expression of that bankrupt philosophy.

Greed has trumped common sense. Greed, as shouted from the White House, trumps paying for an unnecessary war, paying for needed social services, paying for cleaning up the environment we have wrecked, and continue to wreck. Greed using the cloak of religion to pray at the altar of fiscal madness, obscene budget and trade deficits, and endless tax cuts that benefit the rich and Corporate America far more than the average American. Greed causing the White House to shamelessly lie to America... greed and hubris.

America is waking up, just as white Southerners would have awoken to the madness of slavery, given time, and understood that the wealthy were the ones who profited from the practice, not the average Southerner. Certainly, if I were religious, I would pray that America wakes up and throws the cabal out that is hellbent on bankrupting America for my children, and grandchildren. I think America is waking up, finally, and there is no reason we can't return to the hopeful days of the 1960's, when we recognized where we had gone wrong as a country and were taking steps, finally, to do something about it.

I don't think America's best days have to be behind it, but the country is running out of time to turn things around. I think we still can.



Keep D&D Civil.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Your immaturity doesn't surprise me, Fatty. Sad, but unsurprising. I'm closer to 60 than to 50. Does that help?

Exactly where are you seeing immaturity? I was pretty straight-forward.

#1: I know plenty of people who WERE alive when he was shot. Nobody but you has ever said it started the downfall of America. That is in your mind only.

#2: You stated dating your wife in the late 70's as a college student. That puts you well closer to 50 than 60. You're the one who chooses to leave their birthdate off their registry. I guess for convenient times like these.

Look, face the fact that you are in the infinitessimily small portion of America that believes what you wrote.

[Saint Louis]

Exactly where are you seeing immaturity? I was pretty straight-forward.

#1: I know plenty of people who WERE alive when he was shot. Nobody but you has ever said it started the downfall of America. That is in your mind only.

#2: You stated dating your wife in the late 70's as a college student. That puts you well closer to 50 than 60. You're the one who chooses to leave their birthdate off their registry. I guess for convenient times like these.

Look, face the fact that you are in the infinitessimily small portion of America that believes what you wrote.

My dad blames the downfall of America on The Beattles.

[Deckard]

Exactly where are you seeing immaturity? I was pretty straight-forward.

#1: I know plenty of people who WERE alive when he was shot. Nobody but you has ever said it started the downfall of America. That is in your mind only.

#2: You stated dating your wife in the late 70's as a college student. That puts you well closer to 50 than 60. You're the one who chooses to leave their birthdate off their registry. I guess for convenient times like these.

Look, face the fact that you are in the infinitessimily small portion of America that believes what you wrote.
Bizarre. You having a bad day?

I was married in the late '70's, and met my wife in '74. What does that have to do with anything? Do you think I was 17 when I met my wife?

I've never said Jack Kennedy being murdered was "the downfall of America." You did.

Some of us went to college for more than four years. How about you?

You want to know my age? If you can't figure it out, sedate yourself or something. I wouldn't want you to get upset. Sadly, I look older than I am. Yes, I'm closer to 60 than to 50. Trust me... I'd rather be closer to 50 or, better yet, closer to 40.

I'm sorry you weren't a hippie in the '60's, Fatty. Get over it. Bitterness doesn't become you.



Keep D&D Civil.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Bizarre. You having a bad day?

I was married in the late '70's, and met my wife in '74. What does that have to do with anything? Do you think I was 17 when I met my wife?

I've never said Jack Kennedy being murdered was "the downfall of America." You did.

Some of us went to college for more than four years. How about you?

You want to know my age? If you can't figure it out, sedate yourself or something. I wouldn't want you to get upset. Sadly, I look older than I am. Yes, I'm closer to 60 than to 50. Trust me... I'd rather be closer to 50 or, better yet, closer to 40.

I'm sorry you weren't a hippie in the '60's, Fatty. Get over it. Bitterness doesn't become you.



Keep D&D Civil.

Sadly, bitterness has become me. I'm a young curmudgeon.

[RocketMan Tex]

Sadly, bitterness has become me. I'm a young curmudgeon.

You're OK......you just need a cocktail...or five! ;) :D

[Agent94]

I think a fundamental shift in America occured with the deaths of the Kennedy brothers and Dr. King... a shift away from a more progressive democracy that had begun evolving from the post-WWII/McCarthy era of political oppression, a more progressive America moving beyond the striving of those men and women (including my parents), scarred by the Great Depression, who had experienced an unprecendented shared event with World War II, and came out of it determined to never allow another Great Depression to happen again, to never be poor again, to spare their children and grandchildren from such an experience, who's hard work allowed progressive ideas to finally florish. Ideas like civil rights, women's rights, Kennedy's Peace Corps and a host of other programs enacted by LBJ after Kennedy was murdered.


You are romanticising the Kennedy administration because you were young and idealistic at the time. Kennedy was not special. Progressive and socialist ideals go back a long time. At least since Woodrow Wilson who passed two planks of the communist manifesto - A progressive income tax and a central bank.

Bad policy from the central bank then helped send the US into the great depression. Which then was an excuse to introduce more socialist policy under FDR.

Its also interesting to note that Joe Kennedy was pro fascist as were a lot of people before and during WWII.

[geeimsobored]

Bad policy from the central bank then helped send the US into the great depression. Which then was an excuse to introduce more socialist policy under FDR.

The Fed only partly contributed to the Depression. Mainly it was caused by the creation of massive non-performing loans by banks as well as a lack of regulation on certain corporate practices. Not to mention we had the dust bowl at a time when agriculture was still a significant part of the economy. Furthermore, there were other significant structural problems. The Fed screwed up by contracting the money supply in a deflationary environment but by that time the wheels were in motion for a collapse of the economy.

Its also interesting to note that Joe Kennedy was pro fascist as were a lot of people before and during WWII.[/QUOTE]

I've heard this before but no major historian has ever really substantiated this claim. At least none that I have read. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Agent94]

The Fed only partly contributed to the Depression...

I agree the depression was not caused by the Fed. But its policies deepened and extended the depression.

Its also interesting to note that Joe Kennedy was pro fascist as were a lot of people before and during WWII.

I've heard this before but no major historian has ever really substantiated this claim. At least none that I have read. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I found this article about Joe Kennedy. http://hnn.us/articles/697.html

[bigtexxx]

You are romanticising the Kennedy administration because you were young and idealistic at the time. Kennedy was not special. Progressive and socialist ideals go back a long time. At least since Woodrow Wilson who passed two planks of the communist manifesto - A progressive income tax and a central bank.

Bad policy from the central bank then helped send the US into the great depression. Which then was an excuse to introduce more socialist policy under FDR.

Its also interesting to note that Joe Kennedy was pro fascist as were a lot of people before and during WWII.

Good post. Frankly I'm shocked that Deckard is even trying to tell us what happened in the 60s, because from what he has said before he spent the entire decade stoned on the hippie lettuce.