[Chron] The first question Gary Kubiak will hear today: Who will be the No. 1 Pick?

[nWo34Life]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3613557.html

Hall of fame ... or bust?
NFL experts give their advice on Vince Young vs. Reggie Bush

By JOHN MCCLAIN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Now that Gary Kubiak has been hired as the second head coach in Texans history, he will have to make a decision that can help or haunt the franchise for the next 10 years.

When the scouting process is finished, Kubiak's eyes will bug out from watching so much videotape, and his ears will be on fire from listening to opinions from personnel experts, coaches, fans and media.

At that point, Kubiak will tell owner Bob McNair the player he wants with the first pick in the draft: quarterback Vince Young or running back Reggie Bush.

Vince or Reggie? Reggie or Vince?

Will they be among the elite at their positions? Will they be good enough to have their busts in the Pro Football Hall of Fame?

Or will they simply be busts?

Because Kubiak has been so wrapped up in the playoffs with the Broncos, negotiations with the Texans and hiring his first staff that he hasn't spent a lot of time participating in what has become a great debate.

When he's introduced today at noon at Hobby Center and is asked what he thinks about Young and Bush, Kubiak will comment for the first time. Expect him to straddle the fence like he's running for office.

Other NFL coaches and scouts who have been evaluating Young and Bush don't have a problem weighing in on the No. 1 topic of conversation in Houston.

"The more I watch him now, the more I realize that I haven't seen anyone quite like him," Packers general manager Ted Thompson said about Young, who led the Texas Longhorns to the national championship. "Usually, when you're scouting a player, you think to yourself, 'He reminds me of so-and-so.' But in this case, Young doesn't remind me of anyone. He seems to be one of a kind.

"The more I watch him, the more I just scratch my head and wonder how he did that."

The same can be said about Bush, the Heisman Trophy winner from Southern California.

"Reggie's a rare talent, maybe one of a kind," said Alonzo Highsmith, who scouts for Green Bay. "Not only is he a fantastic breakaway runner, but he's such a dangerous receiver. Every time he touches the ball, he's capable of scoring.

"Reggie runs so instinctively. That's God-given. He can stop on a dime and change direction in a split second. He's got great acceleration, that kind of rare acceleration you see with Shaun Alexander and LaDainian Tomlinson. As soon as they hit the hole — boom — they're gone. When he accelerates, it looks like the camera is speeding up.

"Bush or Young? How can you lose?"

If Kubiak wants a quicker impact, he'll take Bush. Putting Bush on the field with quarterback David Carr and receiver Andre Johnson would elevate an offense that ranked 30th during a 2-14 season.

If Kubiak wants to develop a QB with unique talent, he'll take Young. But the coach will have to be patient while Young watches, learns and matures.

Let Vince be Vince

"If Vince plays for an offensive coordinator who'll look at his strengths and try to take advantage of them, there's no telling how good he can be," said Jerry Gray, who was the Bills' defensive coordinator the last five years. "That's what (offensive coordinator) Greg Davis did at Texas.

"But if he plays for an offensive coordinator who tries to fit Vince into what he thinks Vince should be, that team's going to be making a huge mistake. What happens in the NFL is that a lot of guys (coaches) want credit. There are egos involved, and they want to take credit for making a player what he is.

"The best coaches don't try to make a player be something he's not."

Gray is partial because he was an All-America cornerback at Texas who became an All-Pro with the Los Angeles Rams.

"All he's done is win at every level," Gray said. "He's done it with his arm, like against Ohio State, and he's done it with his legs, like against USC.

"He's going to be a great quarterback — not just a great running quarterback."

One of the first things coaches and scouts mention about Young is his leadership ability.

"There's no question about Young's heart," Gray said. "You go back to the 2004 season when they were way behind Oklahoma State. He just made the decision that he was going to pick that team up and carry it on his shoulders, and that's exactly what he did. The way his teammates have rallied around him is rare.

"Vince can control the defense. If he's put in the right situation and is given time to develop, he can be an incredible weapon. If he gets decent pass protection, he'll find his receivers down the field. If you get a good pass rush on him, he can move to buy time until a receiver gets open, or he can take off and run. He's strong enough and fast enough to make a lot of guys miss."

On the other hand ...

Gray is a Bush fan, too.

"What I like about Bush is that he isn't just a running back," Gray said. "He can be used at tailback, wide receiver or in the slot. He can go in motion and get into his route faster. There are so many routes he can run, and he's got hands like a wide receiver. A good offensive coach with a lot of imagination can use him to create mismatches.

"What makes Bush so special is that he can take it the distance every time he touches it. How many guys in our league can do that right now?"

As a defensive coach, Gray is going to have to deal with Bush and Young for a long time.

"As a defensive coordinator, I'd treat Bush like a third wide receiver," Gray said. "I'd try to devise strategy to stop him as a runner and force them to use him as a receiver on third down.

"Because of his size (6-0, 200), he's not going to be as big of a threat running inside, so your outside guys have to contain and be disciplined enough to keep him from getting outside them."

Kind of like the Longhorns did in the Rose Bowl.

"As far as Vince, I'd try to keep him in the pocket," Gray said. "The outside rushers would take a wider path to him. And they'd have to be very disciplined.

"Rather than firing off the ball and getting up the field and risking him stepping up or running right by you, I'd try to keep him in the pocket and hope for good coverage that would eventually allow you to sack him or force him to get rid of the ball."

'A natural leader'

The Cardinals have finished 12th and eighth in defense the last two seasons under defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast.

"I went to Austin to visit friends after Texas won the Rose Bowl," Pendergast said. "I went to their celebration at their stadium, and it was a sight to see. I watched Young to see how he would handle himself in that situation. I couldn't believe how charismatic he was. I watched him with the fans and with his teammates. I was so impressed."

Wait until Pendergast has to devise a strategy to stop Young.

"The most important thing is to put him in position to utilize his strengths, and that would be his athleticism," Pendergast said. "He's got good pocket presence. I don't care about his delivery. All I know is that he's got a big arm and delivers the ball well.

"He sees the field well. He doesn't just take the snap and run when his first option isn't there."

Young's rare leadership skills set him apart.

"I like the fact that he's got that moxie about him," Pendergast said. "He thrives in pressure situations. Either a player has it, or he doesn't. He's just a natural leader, and you can see people gravitate to him.

"People like Vince Young are leaders off the field, too. As coaches, no matter how hard we try, we can't make a guy be a leader. When the game's on the line, Young reminds me of Michael Jordan. He isn't going to be intimidated. He doesn't seem to be fazed by anything or anyone."

[today]

Does anyone know if SR610 will carry this press conference live?

[NJRocket]

And there is a new thread on this becauseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......

[msn]

And there is a new thread on this becauseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......
Why, because this one is newsworthy... (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=107360&z=1#post2151875)

;) ;) :D

[Another Brother]

Heads or Tails.

Head of the team or Tailback? I truly think they are a coinflip away from deciding.

[ima_drummer2k]

Funny thing is...I trust Kubiak more than I trust Charlie or McNair to make the right choice.

[rhester]

Funny thing is...I trust Kubiak more than I trust Charlie or McNair to make the right choice.

Well I'm listening to the Gary Kubiak news conference and after hearing Bob McNair and others they are so sold on Kubiak coming in and making David Carr a Hall of Fame QB.

Don't expect the Texans to draft a QB unless everyone is lying.

[Another Brother]

He really likes Carr. DAYYM

[The Real Shady]

It sounds like Bush or trade down to me.

It was also funny when Kubiak thanked Bob McNair's wife for last night. :eek: :D

[Desert Scar]

Getting Carr's head right just in case they stick with him OR pimping Carr's trade value just in case they go with VY?

They havn't even evaluated either Bush or VY in house yet or had workout numbers for either player, they would be fools to have a closed mind at this point.

[reggietodd]

Kubiak has spoke.

As expected, he is high on Carr, looking forward to working with Carr, thinks Carr can be a very good QB, and basically the texans aren't drafting a QB. Not that this is big news or anything.

[reggietodd]

It was also funny when Kubiak thanked Bob McNair's wife for last night. :eek: :D

I caught that. That was funny!

[rhester]

Kubiak has spoke.

As expected, he is high on Carr, looking forward to working with Carr, thinks Carr can be a very good QB, and basically the texans aren't drafting a QB. Not that this is big news or anything.

Yep, I am soooooo hoping now we trade that pick.

[reggietodd]

Yep, I am soooooo hoping now we trade that pick.

I saw on ESPN this morning that D'Brick had an unreal showing recently. It showed him blocking some guys trying to get to a stationary QB. I'm going to try to catch that again tonight, I was half asleep this morning when they showed it.

[reggietodd]

One more thing.

Someone should put Rich Lord on suicide watch.....

[swilkins]

One more thing.

Someone should put Rich Lord on suicide watch.....

No kidding.

[The Real Shady]

Just by the way Bob McNair is talking on 610 it sounds like Reggie will be the pick by reading between the lines. He really wants to see what Kubiak can do with Carr because he views Carr as being more skillful then Plummer. Also, mentioned the Texans need more big play ability.

When asked about Vince mania in Houston he said he was excited about Texas winning the national championship, and what that did for Texas. But, he has to think about what player would be best for this team. How the #1 pick will effect the salary cap. "It is much more complicated than just who do you want as QB, Vincy Young or David Carr and the fans will come to realize that." He mentioned some other things that I forget now, but he sounds like he does not want to draft Vince.

[Dubious]

If they was smart they wouldn't be making any of their thoughts public.
You want all the other team's imaginations to run wild so someone will make you a Herchel offer.

The NFL draft is the biggest exercise in disinformation since 'weapons of mass destruction'.

[mateo]

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13681440.htm

An expensive Carr ride for Texans
BY JASON COLE
Knight Ridder Newspapers
MIAMI - Fan websites continue to churn the idea of Houston QB David Carr being traded to the Dolphins in exchange for a package of RB Ricky Williams and either a first-, second- or third-round pick.

While there is some logic to the idea - the Texans could then take Houston native and Texas star QB Vince Young with the No. 1 overall pick - there's one really big problem.

Do the Dolphins want to pay $24.5 million over the next three years for Carr?
That's the basic price. The breakdown is this: There are two options in Carr's contract. The first is that the Texans can pay him a $5.5 million bonus on Feb. 19 and then pay him base salaries of $5 million this year and $5.25 million in 2007. That's $15.75 million for two years.

The second is that Carr gets an $8 million bonus on Feb. 19 and base salaries of $5.25 million this year, $5.25 million in 2007 and $6 million in 2008. That's $24.5 million for three years. Neither price is appetizing for a guy who has a lot of potential but not much in results during his first four years.

The Texans could also not pick up the option and simply designate Carr as the team's franchise player. But that move only decreases his value because it means that a team acquiring Carr would have him on only a one-year deal.

In short, as one NFL executive said recently: ``The contract isn't tradable.''

[TMac640]

Marcus Vick.

[Dubious]

If the Texans eat the whole bonus the salary rate for Carr isn't above market rate for servicable quarterbacks, let alone former #1 over all picks. That's even more true when you figure the salary cap is about to make a huge jump, maybe up to $95 million.

The 'not tradeable' comment was sort of stupid. It all comes down to how bad a team wants a quarterback and what is available on the marketplace.
If you haven't noticed there is a real shortage of decent QB's in the NFL, heck Jake Plummer is starting in the Pro Bowl :confused:

Deals can be made between willing partners. I'm through pimping for Vince, I'm just saying, it could be done under the new salary cap.

[Desert Scar]

I saw on ESPN this morning that D'Brick had an unreal showing recently. It showed him blocking some guys trying to get to a stationary QB. I'm going to try to catch that again tonight, I was half asleep this morning when they showed it.

Yep, I am soooooo hoping now we trade that pick.


I would have a hard time seeing the Texans pass on Bush or VY.

It might be the smartest thing to move down and take Dbrick plus a couple future #1s (comparable to the SD-NYG deal with Eli), but PR wise it isn't going to be easy. If they are really, truly sold Carr will become an elite pro QB this would be a gusty and bold move to trade to #3 or #4. But if Bush and/or VY become superstars, ouch from the PR perspective.

Kubiak has spoke.

As expected, he is high on Carr, looking forward to working with Carr, thinks Carr can be a very good QB, and basically the texans aren't drafting a QB. Not that this is big news or anything.

What is funny is if they thinks they can make Carr a player, what do they think they could do with VY? They both were side arm prospects with good accuracy and arm strength, and good athleticism. The difference is VY is not just athletic but super-athletic, is bigger, and dominated much superior competition. If they were both coming out right now is there much of a question VY would be picked over Carr (Carr would probably fall like Big Ben did in the Eli-Rivers-Ben draft because this year you also would have two other high rated QB prospects who had the advantage of proving it versus better college comp in higher pressure situations)? I don't see how Carr's 4 years NFL play so far would reverse this. Not that Carr is a lost cause and I don't use the bust word, but nor has it helped his case that he is a sure thing even at this point. So VY is the better prospect and 4 years younger, hard to go against that.

Finally we all know GMs and owners just speak the plain truth at this point in the offseason;)

So yeah, the decisions have been made.

[msn]

Carr would probably fall like Big Ben did in the Eli-Rivers-Ben draft
Does this help your case much? :) I mean, Eli's great and all, but Big Ben has accomplished a tad more in his short NFL career (while I concede we're only looking a pretty small sample size, a SuperBowl is a SuperBowl).

Another disclaimer--I'm not saying I disagree with your case, just playing a little devil's advocate. Honestly, I don't know where I stand on this (other than being tired of hearing about it). I've flip-flopped more times than John Kerry and I still haven't made up my mind.

[OldManBernie]

If they was smart they wouldn't be making any of their thoughts public.
You want all the other team's imaginations to run wild so someone will make you a Herchel offer.

The NFL draft is the biggest exercise in disinformation since 'weapons of mass destruction'.

I don't think so... David Carr is the starting QB as of this moment and the team need to express that they have confidence in him. They want to avoid a controversy if they actually don't draft VY. I really don't think the Texans will make a decision until the combine or when they can personally evaluate those two players. The vouching of David Carr is pretty standard in the PR playbook IMO.

[mogrod]

To me, it basically comes down to already having a #1 pick at QB (only drafted 3 years ago) and the hassle it would be to trade him if they wanted to. It's been rumored that NFL minds believe Carr's, and the whole offense in general, problems were based on coaching and system, not talent.

Two years ago, Carr looked like he was becoming a damn good QB in only his 3rd season.

If they wanted Young, forgetting the fact that he is a local kid and from Texas, how would it look that they decided to give up on him so early in his career?

Besides, if Kubiak REALLY feels Carr is a Super Bowl winning QB if you put enough weapons and o-line around him, why does it matter that they don't draft Young?

They may very well feel Young is a SB winning QB as well but, if they already believe they already have that at that position, why not go after the "once-in-a-lifetime" RB?

Also, it will probably take 2-3 season for Young to become the starter, then another 2-3 years for the team to work it's way up to Super Bowl status. So, you would rather wait roughly 3-6 years to be a championship contender? By then Kubiak probably won't be here and AJ & DD will be close to being past their prime.

We have weapons, we have talent. We just need to add a few pieces and a new coaching system to excel. If they feel Carr is that good, draft the stud RB, improve the line & defense and lets start thinking of championships in the next year or two.

Instead of saying how much of a mistake they re making not getting Young. Think of how highly and how good they think Carr, AJ & Bush will be that they pass him up.

[Desert Scar]

Does this help your case much? :) I mean, Eli's great and all, but Big Ben has accomplished a tad more in his short NFL career (while I concede we're only looking a pretty small sample size, a SuperBowl is a SuperBowl).


I don't think it really helps the case for Carr at all. Granted the teams are very different (BR is supported by a great run game and a defense), but the Stealers were poor the year before Ben R arrived, which is why they had a low draft pick to take him. Further the Stealers have been much better with Ben R than without him since he was there (suggesting he has made a difference) and that is over only 2 years when Carr has had 4 to prove he belongs (it is much harder to determine if the Texans would be much better with him or not).

Personally, I think Eli has been pretty sucky and he has a lot to work with (pretty good D, Barber, decent OL and decent WRs).

One thing going for VY and BR is they were charasmatic leaders and winners, to go along with their substantial talent. (If Eli takes after his brother we know his talent is far greater than his leadership)

But my main point is just as BR went after Eli and Rivers in the draft, I would strongly expect Carr to go after VY and ML if he were coming out this year. Carr deserved as much as anyone to be the #1 pick that year (I supported it because I thought he was great at Fresno) as did Alex Smith last year, but these guys were not the slam dunk QB prospects you get in other years (e.g., Vick, Palmer, Eli, VY, ML). In short I can't see anything about Carr's college (like I said he has great at Fresno, but not VY legendary great against elite comp) or pro career to warrent taking your chance with him over VY, even taking aside the issue that VY is 4 years younger.

[Desert Scar]

I don't think so... David Carr is the starting QB as of this moment and the team need to express that they have confidence in him. They want to avoid a controversy if they actually don't draft VY. I really don't think the Texans will make a decision until the combine or when they can personally evaluate those two players. The vouching of David Carr is pretty standard in the PR playbook IMO.

Makes sense. Try to support your guy (Carr) and float the idea they won't draft VY to fans. Protects them if they don't draft VY.

If they do draft VY, they then just say he was too much of a phenom to pass up once they evaluated him, not that Carr won't be a good NFL player. Makes it easier (or at least doesn't hurt their efforts) to try to trade Carr.

Kubiac hasn't talked to/evaluated Carr himself first hand, they havn't worked out any of the top draft prospects, and we don't have combine like figures, it makes no sense to be committed to a course of action.

[stevel]

To me, it basically comes down to already having a #1 pick at QB (only drafted 3 years ago) and the hassle it would be to trade him if they wanted to. It's been rumored that NFL minds believe Carr's, and the whole offense in general, problems were based on coaching and system, not talent.

Two years ago, Carr looked like he was becoming a damn good QB in only his 3rd season.

If they wanted Young, forgetting the fact that he is a local kid and from Texas, how would it look that they decided to give up on him so early in his career?

Besides, if Kubiak REALLY feels Carr is a Super Bowl winning QB if you put enough weapons and o-line around him, why does it matter that they don't draft Young?

They may very well feel Young is a SB winning QB as well but, if they already believe they already have that at that position, why not go after the "once-in-a-lifetime" RB?

Also, it will probably take 2-3 season for Young to become the starter, then another 2-3 years for the team to work it's way up to Super Bowl status. So, you would rather wait roughly 3-6 years to be a championship contender? By then Kubiak probably won't be here and AJ & DD will be close to being past their prime.

We have weapons, we have talent. We just need to add a few pieces and a new coaching system to excel. If they feel Carr is that good, draft the stud RB, improve the line & defense and lets start thinking of championships in the next year or two.

Instead of saying how much of a mistake they re making not getting Young. Think of how highly and how good they think Carr, AJ & Bush will be that they pass him up.

Nice Post

[rrj_gamz]

Maybe its lip service, but it looks like we're stuck with this freakin' Carr...We'll be stuck in a ditch for at least two years...

I don't think Carr can be that guy...I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so...It's decision making, not just ability...Is Vince Young the immediate solution, no, but there is a hell of a lot of upside...

[Rocket River]

He really likes Carr. DAYYM

I was driving listening to 610 after the Conference
and they were talking to McNair
I nearly WRECKED when he compare Carr to Brady and Manning

I knew then
Vince has no Chance

The reminds me of when the fans
wanted the oilers to play McNair
but they chose to play COMMANDER CODY
2-14 season later. . they on their way to Tennesee

Deja Vu

Rocket River

[pgabriel]

RR,

they played Chandler over McNair after a season of Carlson. Carlson's play earned them the pick.

[Furious Jam]

I've never really gotten the whole dump-Carr-for-Young thing. Yeah, it makes sense if you bleed orange, but otherwise, I don't see it as a plausible football decision.

You put Carr behind a terrible offensive line and you don't give him a lot of great targets to throw at beyond Andre Johnson. So he gets sacked - a lot. And so he gets a little gun shy and regresses a little bit.

So what now? You say #$%* it and get a QB who runs the option instead? "We don't need an O-line, a decent TE, or another good WR. We'll just let Vince run for 1st downs, just like he did in the Rose Bowl. He solves all of our problems!"

You've got to be kidding. If Vince tries to run as much in the NFL as he did in college, he'll end up in a body cast. Instead of watching Carr get cracked 4 or 5 times a game behind the line of scrimmage, you'll see Vince getting cracked 10 to 15 times trying to pick up yards. He'll be injured all the time like Vick.

I'd rather get Carr some help before I trade him in for someone else. What's the point of switching engines when the wheels are falling off?

[JumpMan]

I'd rather get Carr some help before I trade him in for someone else. What's the point of switching engines when the wheels are falling off?

Some people think the engine sucks too. :p

[msn]

RR,

they played Chandler over McNair after a season of Carlson. Carlson's play earned them the pick.
hmm, deja vu.

[MadMax]

Some people think the engine sucks too. :p

some people don't think the engine sucks...but are convinced that once we get the other parts taken care of, we'll still be better off with a new engine.

it isn't as if getting VY means you can't get help anywhere else on the team...and it isn't as if keeping Carr means you'll find the parts to fill the rest of the holes. they're not mutually exclusive events.

one key difference i see from those who want the texans to take VY and those who don't is how quickly the person thinks the texans can turn it around...and whether they feel the team was better than their 2-14 record. i think the team has so many holes it's silly. i think this team will be rebuilding, anyway...with a completely new system on both sides of the ball.

[Fatty FatBastard]

some people don't think the engine sucks...but are convinced that once we get the other parts taken care of, we'll still be better off with a new engine.

it isn't as if getting VY means you can't get help anywhere else on the team...and it isn't as if keeping Carr means you'll find the parts to fill the rest of the holes. they're not mutually exclusive events.

one key difference i see from those who want the texans to take VY and those who don't is how quickly the person thinks the texans can turn it around...and whether they feel the team was better than their 2-14 record. i think the team has so many holes it's silly. i think this team will be rebuilding, anyway...with a completely new system on both sides of the ball.

Speaking of which, this is the problem:

This is not about VY vs. Bush. This is about VY vs. Bush and Carr.

Unless you're pretty damn sure that Carr is a bust, (and nobody who has watched the Texans the past 4 seasons can legitimately say that) obtaining VY isn't worth these two players.

If you do draft VY, you've just knocked Carr's trade value down, because you are saying as an organization that he isn't worth keeping as your starting QB. You might get a future #2 draft pick for him.

It simply isn't worth all of this if you have any faith in Carr being even a "good" QB.

The Texans have already figured this out. It's time VY supporters follow suit.

[gucci888]

I've never really gotten the whole dump-Carr-for-Young thing. Yeah, it makes sense if you bleed orange, but otherwise, I don't see it as a plausible football decision.

You put Carr behind a terrible offensive line and you don't give him a lot of great targets to throw at beyond Andre Johnson. So he gets sacked - a lot. And so he gets a little gun shy and regresses a little bit.

So what now? You say #$%* it and get a QB who runs the option instead? "We don't need an O-line, a decent TE, or another good WR. We'll just let Vince run for 1st downs, just like he did in the Rose Bowl. He solves all of our problems!"

You've got to be kidding. If Vince tries to run as much in the NFL as he did in college, he'll end up in a body cast. Instead of watching Carr get cracked 4 or 5 times a game behind the line of scrimmage, you'll see Vince getting cracked 10 to 15 times trying to pick up yards. He'll be injured all the time like Vick.

I'd rather get Carr some help before I trade him in for someone else. What's the point of switching engines when the wheels are falling off?

You're acting like if we got VY, we wouldn't improve anywhere else. No matter who we draft, we are gonna have to improve the things you mentioned. It's not like drafting VY would stop us from improving the O-Line or doing other things.

[Groogrux]

Speaking of which, this is the problem:

This is not about VY vs. Bush. This is about VY vs. Bush and Carr.

Unless you're pretty damn sure that Carr is a bust, (and nobody who has watched the Texans the past 4 seasons can legitimately say that) obtaining VY isn't worth these two players.

If you do draft VY, you've just knocked Carr's trade value down, because you are saying as an organization that he isn't worth keeping as your starting QB. You might get a future #2 draft pick for him.

It simply isn't worth all of this if you have any faith in Carr being even a "good" QB.

The Texans have already figured this out. It's time VY supporters follow suit.

Correction:

This is not about VY vs. Bush. This is about VY and Davis and Wells vs. Bush and Carr.

[mateo]

The reminds me of when the fans
wanted the oilers to play McNair
but they chose to play COMMANDER CODY
2-14 season later. . they on their way to Tennesee

Deja Vu

Rocket River

More like revisionist history. You are forgetting Bucky, Billy Joe, and Chandler.

[Furious Jam]

Some people think the engine sucks too. :p

I just don't know how you can judge Carr. Yeah, a player like Vince might have won an extra 2 or 3 games this year with his feet. But would that really help?

[mateo]

Correction:

This is not about VY vs. Bush. This is about VY and Davis and Wells vs. Bush and Carr.

Actually VY+Davis+Morency vs. Carr+Bush+Davis

Davis = Davis, so remove them.

VY+Morency vs. Carr+Bush

[pgabriel]

I just don't know how you can judge Carr. Yeah, a player like Vince might have won an extra 2 or 3 games this year with his feet. But would that really help?


who wants that? :confused:

[Furious Jam]

You're acting like if we got VY, we wouldn't improve anywhere else. No matter who we draft, we are gonna have to improve the things you mentioned. It's not like drafting VY would stop us from improving the O-Line or doing other things.

All I'm trying to say is that no one can sure that VY would be that much of an improvement over Carr. I agree that VY will be eventually be better than Carr, but how much better? It's hard to say because Carr hasn't really been given the best chance to win. It just doesn't make sense to pass on Bush, one of the greatest RB prospects ever, for a guy who might not be much of an upgrade over what you already have.

If everyone is so sure that VY is so much better than Carr, then why do all of the mock drafts show Leinart being taken ahead of him?

[Chance]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

[ktvoss]

Saints? You think Vince will end up there?

Anyway, casual fans don't care about Vince that much, and I've been around alot of Texans fans. So there will be no loud "roar". They will probably care for say a week and it's over. Kubiak knows what he's doing moreso than both of us. There is no point in crying about it.

[Fatty FatBastard]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

Well, that's mature.

I'm in the Bush camp. I think picking VY would be a blunderous move because we'd be switching a good part for a good part. We'd be crappy for years to come.

That said, if the Texans did choose VY, I certainly wouldn't turn my back on my team, much less root for another team. I would get my VY Texans jersey and root for my new player.

To the one's who will change affiliations if the Texans don't pick VY: Grow up.

[DonnyMost]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

Now that's loyalty for ya...

[DonnyMost]

Well, that's mature.


To the one's who will change affiliations if the Texans don't pick VY: Grow up.

If the Texans start winning, these people will come scampering back as if nothing changed..

[HillBoy]

Marcus Vick.
Is he out of the slammer ALREADY? Man, our legal system sucks!

[reggietodd]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

And you work for 610? I don't even know how to respond to this. Disgusting.

[swilkins]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

Wow. You were actually serious when you said that a few weeks ago.

Perhaps you and Rich Lord could get a group discount.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Correction:

This is not about VY vs. Bush. This is about VY and Davis and Wells vs. Bush and Carr.

Correction: Obtaining Bush doesn't lower the trade value of either Davis or Wells. Obtaining VY does exactly that for Carr.

[SamFisher]

And you work for 610? I don't even know how to respond to this. Disgusting.

LOL, yes, how dare somebody who works for a sports radio station -- whose programming is primarily composed of people giving their opinions about sports -- give their opinion about sports.

[reggietodd]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

I really don't think any of us know more than Kubiak, Casserly, Mcnair & company. I'm pretty sure any NFL team in this situation would handle this the same way. Its not about Reggie Bush either, its about us not needing a quarterback right now.

Your post above shows selfishness, you want whats best for you, not whats best for the Texans. Kind of like a spoiled kid who doesn't get what HE wants.

[reggietodd]

LOL, yes, how dare somebody who works for a sports radio station -- whose programming is primarily composed of people giving their opinions about sports -- give their opinion about sports.

They are not supposed to act like spoiled brats.

[pgabriel]

Your post above shows selfishness, you want whats best for you, not whats best for the Texans. Kind of like a spoiled kid who doesn't get what HE wants.


calm down dude, he can root for whomever he wants. you're the one throwing a tantrum because dude doesn't want to root for the team.

[Harrisment]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.


Umm....bye.

[Mr. Clutch]

Correction: Obtaining Bush doesn't lower the trade value of either Davis or Wells. Obtaining VY does exactly that for Carr.

Right, and we probably would keep Davis. On certain situations we could have Andre and Bush lining up at WR and Davis in the backfield. That would be sweet.

[Mr. Clutch]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.

Yeah, what a HUGE mistake it would have been not to draft Aaron Glen and Steve McKinney. I mean, if we hadn't drafted them we might only have 1 win instead of all the wins we had this past year.

[stevel]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron

see ya texans.

Wa wa wa my pee pee hurts! As had been pointed out as nauseum winning teams sell tickets, jerseys, ect... I don't care who they pick as long as the team gets better. Comments like this make me sick. BTW, I remember when the Rocks picked Horry instead of Harold "Baby Jordan" Minor - the crowd booed and whined like a bunch of girls. You never heard anyone complain about the pick after we won the 2 championships.

[MadMax]

Well, that's mature.

I'm in the Bush camp. I think picking VY would be a blunderous move because we'd be switching a good part for a good part. We'd be crappy for years to come.

That said, if the Texans did choose VY, I certainly wouldn't turn my back on my team, much less root for another team. I would get my VY Texans jersey and root for my new player.

To the one's who will change affiliations if the Texans don't pick VY: Grow up.

what in the world does it have to do with maturity? fan support is a function of maturity???

i feel much the same way as Chance. not quite as strong. but i have those same feelings. as i've said before, i was rooting for VY before the Texans ever took the field. i didn't grow up with the Texans. i root for all things Houston...but honestly, VY is more Houston TO ME than the Texans are.

i certainly won't be rooting against the Texans. but it will be different, to say the least. they won't occupy the sole position anymore as far as i'm concerned. there are rockets fans who root for the rocks because of yao. there are rockets fans who root for the rocks because their favorite college player was drafted here some time ago...terrapin fans who rooted for the francis-led rocks, for example. that's how i feel about VY. i pray to God the Saints take him, because they've been a team I've liked since I was a little boy. will be much harder if he falls to the titans...particularly when he comes to town to play the Texans...particularly since i feel the Texans are making such a huge mistake.

Fatty -- the part I don't understand is how you feel so strongly NOW that Carr is worth waiting on. i read some posts of yours from the beginning of the season. i know you said they were tongue-in-cheek...but many of them certainly didn't seem to be. they were well-reasoned, even if i disagreed with them. your questions about him proved to be absolutely true about him in 2005. i can't understand what happened in 2005 that would make you change your opinion about carr so drastically for the better.

This is what you said:

My main problem with Carr, and it's a biggie, is his lack of vision.

Time and time again, I've watched him look at no more than two receivers, and then start running and flailing.

You've got to look at more options if you want to succeed in the NFL.

To those who think that Carr running too soon is due to a porous O-line, that hasn't always been the case. Watch Carr when he has a lifetime back there. He'll either make a run through the line (not around it, mind you) or he'll try to thread the needle to Johnson or whoever else is his flavor of the day.

I watched Banks take over for Carr a couple of years ago. He looked stellar in comparison.

Carr may very well be tough, but he doesn't seem smart enough to ever get beyond the role of a "serviceable" QB.

If we can get decent value for him, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and bring Ragone or Banks, or hell! Even Symons in.

I'm fully prepared to eat crow if I see marked improvement this year. I doubt that will ever happen.

I'm not saying he can't throw the ball. I'm saying that his decision making is suspect.

Last season was his best season to date, with his avarage completion rate going up from 53% to 61%. But the stat that stands out to me is his TD/INT rate. 16 TDs, 14 INTs. That ain't pretty.

If he can do 20 and 12 this season, I'll stop talking about this. We'll see. I'm doubtful, obviously.

Dude, you were freaking right about ALL of that in 2005. And I'm still saying I think Carr has the potential to be a good QB....but I can't deny that you got the better of that discussion. You said you'd eat crow if you saw improvement....what did you see??? I didn't see improvement. I saw him have his worst season. I saw him unable to make something of nothing. I'm wondering if your flip on this has something to do with the fact you're tired of Longhorn talk.

So am I the ridiculous homer...or the fairweather fan? If I get called the latter, that means I've been labelled both. But I was a Texans season ticket holder.

[ima_drummer2k]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.


This pick is about who they think will win more games, not about who will be easier to market. Winning, not marketing.

BTW, if you bolt because of a draft pick, you were never a fan to begin with.

[LongTimeFan]

Kubiak was on PTI earlier. I didn't get too strong of a Reggie vibe from him at all. In fact he made it clear that his thoughts on Carr and the draft are two seperate things.

[msn]

go saints. i got to shake hands with bob mcnair and gary kubiak and coach slocum not on a mobile and it was all good.

then i heard them all speak and i realized that barring a miracle they are making the wrong decision and do not think they will face much music for it. i hate it. they are showing no differentation between what vince has accomplished and what some other local and great athlete did/could've done.

look at what a local presence can do for you. when the texans launched they had two player shows on the air. aaron glenn and steve mckinney. two houston guys. hell...steve is still on the air. the starting center of 'the weakest link' of the worst team still has a show...and it is the highest rated hour we air. this city will react like nothing you have ever seen. another example...someone on this board tell me the loudest roar the toyota center has heard this year. (hint - vince was on the jombotron)

see ya texans.
You are seriously willing to base football decisions on how well-listened to programming on a freaking radio station is? Are you KIDDING me???

Yay, Steve McFreakingKinney has a piece of $41t o-line and has sustained a popular radio show for 4 years!!! Whoopty-freaking-dooo! Are you SERIOUS??? I'll trade another hour of fan drivel for one--JUST ONE--10-6 or 11-5 season in the last four years. Or hell, even for a 9-7.

But no, forget the best way to win football games, let's make our pick based on how loud the crowd cheered when someone's grille was on the freaking jumbotron, or based on how many myopians still listen to an average center from one of the worst o-lines in the league who plays for the worst team in the league.

And a word about marketing: the best marketing is winning. End of discussion.

In short, there *might* be a good football reason to select VY over RB, but what you just posted ain't it.

[MadMax]

it's about hitting the homerun, msn.

drafting bush doesn't guarantee wins

drafting VY doesn't guarantee wins

but of the two, none would be more marketable...none would add more value to the franchise....than winning WITH VY.

[SamFisher]

This pick is about who they think will win more games, not about who will be easier to market. Winning, not marketing.

Chas & Bob M haven't done to well in that department as of yet.

BTW, if you bolt because of a draft pick, you were never a fan to begin with.

None of us were fans to begin with 5 years ago until the focus groups spit out a logo and a mascot.

[percicles]

Wa wa wa my pee pee hurts! As had been pointed out as nauseum winning teams sell tickets, jerseys, ect... I don't care who they pick as long as the team gets better.

I think this years Jax Jags would diagree with you.

[msn]

it's about hitting the homerun, msn.
Yes, and it may very well be a Luke Scott 450-foot bomb--in March. What does the club look like 15 games in? Three years from now?

If Kubiak and his people (Reeves, too) decide the best way to plan for the future is VY, I'm all for it. If they decide it's RB, I'm all for it. If they decide it's trade down for D'Brick, I'm all for it. Because they know infinitely more than your average droaning talk show whiner or red-eyed IBB "keyboard quarterback". And yes, I'm taking a swipe at myself with that wisecrack, too.

[MadMax]

None of us were fans to begin with 5 years ago until the focus groups spit out a logo and a mascot.

that's what makes this sooo different to me. this isn't the rockets, who i remember watching from DisneyWorld during the 86 finals..when i was 12..with my family..instead of being in the parks. it isn't the astros...who i remember going to see when i was about 7...whose history is burned in my memory like a family member's. it's just not the same. this isn't my father's team.

[ktvoss]

Yes, and it may very well be a Luke Scott 450-foot bomb--in March. What does the club look like 15 games in? Three years from now?

If Kubiak and his people (Reeves, too) decide the best way to plan for the future is VY, I'm all for it. If they decide it's RB, I'm all for it. If they decide it's trade down for D'Brick, I'm all for it. Because they know infinitely more than your average droaning talk show whiner or red-eyed IBB "keyboard quarterback". And yes, I'm taking a swipe at myself with that wisecrack, too.

Excellent post.

[Fatty FatBastard]

what in the world does it have to do with maturity? fan support is a function of maturity???

i feel much the same way as Chance. not quite as strong. but i have those same feelings. as i've said before, i was rooting for VY before the Texans ever took the field. i didn't grow up with the Texans. i root for all things Houston...but honestly, VY is more Houston TO ME than the Texans are.

i certainly won't be rooting against the Texans. but it will be different, to say the least. they won't occupy the sole position anymore as far as i'm concerned. there are rockets fans who root for the rocks because of yao. there are rockets fans who root for the rocks because their favorite college player was drafted here some time ago...terrapin fans who rooted for the francis-led rocks, for example. that's how i feel about VY. i pray to God the Saints take him, because they've been a team I've liked since I was a little boy. will be much harder if he falls to the titans...particularly when he comes to town to play the Texans...particularly since i feel the Texans are making such a huge mistake.

Fatty -- the part I don't understand is how you feel so strongly NOW that Carr is worth waiting on. i read some posts of yours from the beginning of the season. i know you said they were tongue-in-cheek...but many of them certainly didn't seem to be. they were well-reasoned, even if i disagreed with them. your questions about him proved to be absolutely true about him in 2005. i can't understand what happened in 2005 that would make you change your opinion about carr so drastically for the better.

This is what you said:

My main problem with Carr, and it's a biggie, is his lack of vision.

Time and time again, I've watched him look at no more than two receivers, and then start running and flailing.

You've got to look at more options if you want to succeed in the NFL.

To those who think that Carr running too soon is due to a porous O-line, that hasn't always been the case. Watch Carr when he has a lifetime back there. He'll either make a run through the line (not around it, mind you) or he'll try to thread the needle to Johnson or whoever else is his flavor of the day.

I watched Banks take over for Carr a couple of years ago. He looked stellar in comparison.

Carr may very well be tough, but he doesn't seem smart enough to ever get beyond the role of a "serviceable" QB.

If we can get decent value for him, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and bring Ragone or Banks, or hell! Even Symons in.

I'm fully prepared to eat crow if I see marked improvement this year. I doubt that will ever happen.

I'm not saying he can't throw the ball. I'm saying that his decision making is suspect.

Last season was his best season to date, with his avarage completion rate going up from 53% to 61%. But the stat that stands out to me is his TD/INT rate. 16 TDs, 14 INTs. That ain't pretty.

If he can do 20 and 12 this season, I'll stop talking about this. We'll see. I'm doubtful, obviously.

Dude, you were freaking right about ALL of that in 2005. And I'm still saying I think Carr has the potential to be a good QB....but I can't deny that you got the better of that discussion. You said you'd eat crow if you saw improvement....what did you see??? I didn't see improvement. I saw him have his worst season. I saw him unable to make something of nothing. I'm wondering if your flip on this has something to do with the fact you're tired of Longhorn talk.

So am I the ridiculous homer...or the fairweather fan? If I get called the latter, that means I've been labelled both. But I was a Texans season ticket holder.

Again, my largest issue is the drop in trade value that looking for trades on Carr would bring us. Call me a fool, but I think a trained monkey could run an offense with AJ and Bush to look for.

I still think that Carr, at best, is a "good" QB. I guess I'd need to see what kind of trades for Carr we could get. One thing is for sure: You don't keep both on the roster. If you're going to trade Carr, you're not going to get much in value for him, mainly due to his contract.

As I stated, this scenario isn't about VY vs. Bush. It's VY vs. Bush and Carr. I don't think he's worth it personally.

That said, if the Texans decide to pick VY, I certainly won't whine about it.

[gucci888]

Kubiak has spoke.

As expected, he is high on Carr, looking forward to working with Carr, thinks Carr can be a very good QB, and basically the texans aren't drafting a QB. Not that this is big news or anything.

What do you want Kubiak to say? "Carr isn't a good QB and we're not even sure if he'll be our guy for the future."

Kubiak/McNair are saying all the right things and that includes praising Carr, they would in no form or fashion say anything bad about Carr. He isn't going to say anything bad or negative about anyone, that would be a stupid thing to do for a first impression. For right now, Carr is their guy, but that doesn't mean things can't change.

Kubiak/McNair have said NOTHING on what they are giong to do in the draft and I'm not saying they won't draft Bush, but giving a player a little praise during your first press conference doesn't mean a whole lot. Wasn't JVG praising Steve's performance in the playoffs right before they traded him for TMac?

[msn]

None of us were fans to begin with 5 years ago until the focus groups spit out a logo and a mascot.
I disagree. I had been on the edge of my seat since the mid '90s hoping for the NFL to come back to Texas where it belongs (and no, Dallas doesn't count). When the rumors started flying around, and the expansion talks wore on, I was rooting for the greatest city in the world to get an NFL franchise. And when she was awarded that franchise, I was elated--way before the insanely cool logo and marginal nickname came out.

I was "Houston" when "Houston" wasn't cool. :D

[MadMax]

Yes, and it may very well be a Luke Scott 450-foot bomb--in March. What does the club look like 15 games in? Three years from now?

If Kubiak and his people (Reeves, too) decide the best way to plan for the future is VY, I'm all for it. If they decide it's RB, I'm all for it. If they decide it's trade down for D'Brick, I'm all for it. Because they know infinitely more than your average droaning talk show whiner or red-eyed IBB "keyboard quarterback". And yes, I'm taking a swipe at myself with that wisecrack, too.

i don't know what it looks like. i can't tell you that. but don't think for a second they can either. these are the same experts all around the league who let tom brady slip through the first day. the same experts who rated tony mandarich as a can't miss. the same experts who told us how great ki jana carter would be. they don't know near as much as they'd like you to believe they do. i will not argue that they know less than i know. they know more than i know. but it's all a gamble. if they see a GREAT QB about to happen in david carr...go get it. they can take whoever they want. it's their pick. not mine.

[gucci888]

Kubiak was on PTI earlier. I didn't get too strong of a Reggie vibe from him at all. In fact he made it clear that his thoughts on Carr and the draft are two seperate things.

I missed it. Can anyone give a recap?

[stevel]

I think this years Jax Jags would diagree with you.

OK, 9 times out of 10 winning sells ect... It must be something in the water in Fla. The Marlins have won 2 WSs and they can't draw either.

[MadMax]

I disagree. I had been on the edge of my seat since the mid '90s hoping for the NFL to come back to Texas where it belongs (and no, Dallas doesn't count). When the rumors started flying around, and the expansion talks wore on, I was rooting for the greatest city in the world to get an NFL franchise. And when she was awarded that franchise, I was elated--way before the insanely cool logo and marginal nickname came out.

I was "Houston" when "Houston" wasn't cool. :D

this describes me perfectly.

i still feel the way i do.

[MadMax]

Again, my largest issue is the drop in trade value that looking for trades on Carr would bring us. Call me a fool, but I think a trained monkey could run an offense with AJ and Bush to look for.

I still think that Carr, at best, is a "good" QB. I guess I'd need to see what kind of trades for Carr we could get. One thing is for sure: You don't keep both on the roster. If you're going to trade Carr, you're not going to get much in value for him, mainly due to his contract.

As I stated, this scenario isn't about VY vs. Bush. It's VY vs. Bush and Carr. I don't think he's worth it personally.

That said, if the Texans decide to pick VY, I certainly won't whine about it.

so your concern is about the drop in trade value of QB that you think at best is good?? that's the concern that keeps you from drafting VY? i don't get it.

[msn]

i don't know what it looks like. i can't tell you that. but don't think for a second they can either.... it's all a gamble.
Great points, all (including the snipped parts).

But a big marketing splash is all worthless if the Texans go on to four *more* losing seasons in a row--like a 9th-inning come-from-behind walk-off bomb in March. Everyone will be juiced for a couple of days, but nobody will give a damn in August if the team is 15 games under .500 and the bum who hit that blast is now hitting .198 with two bits worth of RBIs.

But then again, we just don't know until it's in the rearview mirror.

[LongTimeFan]

I missed it. Can anyone give a recap?

They were grilling him on the VY vs. RB debate.

-Loves both, hasn't started researching it yet
-Knows ab VY craze, going to do whats best for team
-Thinks Carr can be great
-Says Carr and Draft decision are 2 seperate evaluations

The last part led me to believe that if they think VY is that good, they'll take him anyways.

[MadMax]

Great points, all (including the snipped parts).

But a big marketing splash is all worthless if the Texans go on to four *more* losing seasons in a row--like a 9th-inning come-from-behind walk-off bomb in March. Everyone will be juiced for a couple of days, but nobody will give a damn in August if the team is 15 games under .500 and the bum who hit that blast is now hitting .198 with two bits worth of RBIs.

But then again, we just don't know until it's in the rearview mirror.

all of this is assumption, msn. that's my problem.

the assumption i hear from the pro-bush camp is that the guy will absolutely equal wins...and that if we take VY, we can't improve next year. i think that is beyond ridiculous.

[SamFisher]

that's what makes this sooo different to me. this isn't the rockets, who i remember watching from DisneyWorld during the 86 finals..when i was 12..with my family..instead of being in the parks. it isn't the astros...who i remember going to see when i was about 7...whose history is burned in my memory like a family member's. it's just not the same. this isn't my father's team.

I agree 110%. Since I was real young, through high school and even part of college, I was a fanatical Oilers fan, we had season tix and the whole nine yards. Sunday meant Oilers - and that was it. Now, had they not moved, I don't think I'd feel quite the same way, having gotten older and moved out of Houston a decade ago, but I'm still a big Rockets fan and will continue to be one forever. Same same with the Astros.

In the meantime, I sort of filled my football fix b y becoming an evenn bigger College FB fan - I feel the college game is far superior to the NFL in terms of holding my interest

So I was happy when the Texans came online because it meant I could pay attention on Sundays again. I watched the first game against the Cowboys with rapt attention. After a while though, with the losing, the feeling that I'm rooting for a consumer product rather than a team I grew up with, and the general, well, kind of boringness of the team and its personnel (Capers was SUCH a bore. Nice guy but I can't ever recall seeing him and saying anything remotely interesting in 4 years.) There were a few exciting games in the early days - but that momentum was lost, and the result was a listless, boring franchise, that just doesn't hold my interest from week to week. (I also think the NFL has gotten far more boring in the last few years - it just seems so stale now). I don't have that much invested in them, like you said, so it's easy to put them down.

But who knows, if Bush turns out to be as big a deal in the NFL as he was in college, maybe I'll be more interested - but not as much so if it was Young doing the same.

[msn]

all of this is assumption, msn. that's my problem.

the assumption i hear from the pro-bush camp is that the guy will absolutely equal wins...and that if we take VY, we can't improve next year. i think that is beyond ridiculous.
There are folks on each side making assumptions.

If I'm the guy in this unenviable position, I look at the roster top-to-bottom and I look at our offensive scheme and make the best pick to put guys in a position to win. Even if it pisses fans off--they'll all be back if we win, and if we lose (even if I pick "their guy")--they'll be gone.

Funny thing is, I *still* can't arrive at an opinion on this. I just don't know enough. At least I admit it! :D

[Fatty FatBastard]

so your concern is about the drop in trade value of QB that you think at best is good?? that's the concern that keeps you from drafting VY? i don't get it.

Again, a RB can make an immediate impact, even in their rookie season. It'll take VY at least a couple of years to progress.

I see our team composed with Bush right now will make our team better for years to come.

BTW, while you're in the discussion about starting over, would you be willing to give up Dunta Robinson and David Carr for the #2 pick? That way, we get both of them. Maybe even for less?

What I'm not interested in is giving away Carr for little to nothing. He's got more value than that, right now. If we draft VY, teams will offer next to nothing for him, especially with his contract. Or we could just let him go.

If you want VY, you're basically willing to give up Bush and Carr to get him. That isn't a wise move, IMO.

[reggietodd]

What do you want Kubiak to say? "Carr isn't a good QB and we're not even sure if he'll be our guy for the future."

Kubiak/McNair are saying all the right things and that includes praising Carr, they would in no form or fashion say anything bad about Carr. He isn't going to say anything bad or negative about anyone, that would be a stupid thing to do for a first impression. For right now, Carr is their guy, but that doesn't mean things can't change.

Kubiak/McNair have said NOTHING on what they are giong to do in the draft and I'm not saying they won't draft Bush, but giving a player a little praise during your first press conference doesn't mean a whole lot. Wasn't JVG praising Steve's performance in the playoffs right before they traded him for TMac?

Did you listen to the interview? Did you read Chance's post? The texans are not drafting a quarterback. There is no other way to put this, I have no idea whether or not they are drafting Reggie Bush, and am pretty sure they don't even know yet, but they are not drafting a quarterback.

[ima_drummer2k]

If Kubiak and his people (Reeves, too) decide the best way to plan for the future is VY, I'm all for it. If they decide it's RB, I'm all for it. If they decide it's trade down for D'Brick, I'm all for it. Because they know infinitely more than your average droaning talk show whiner or red-eyed IBB "keyboard quarterback". And yes, I'm taking a swipe at myself with that wisecrack, too.
This is so true. Soo true.

Question to all you future Saint fans (if VY ends up there): What if Ramonce Taylor rushes for 3,000 yards and 25 TD's and wins the Heisman next year on the way to leading UT to another NC, then get's drafted by the Jets? Who will be your favorite team then?

[VesceySux]

Trade the pick!
For D'Brick!
He will make our offense sick! (as in good)

[Desert Scar]

Correction: Obtaining Bush doesn't lower the trade value of either Davis or Wells. Obtaining VY does exactly that for Carr.

Davis and Wells don't have much trade value. Colts and Hawks couldn't get any offers from 2 of the best 3 RBs in the whole league.

Texans could get a 3rd rounder from Dallas on a QB selected with a 6 rounder who didn't even finish playing college ball.

If Carr indeed has less trade value as Davis that means league opinions of him are atrocious and you sure don't want to build a team around him.

Speaking of which, this is the problem:

This is not about VY vs. Bush. This is about VY vs. Bush and Carr.

Unless you're pretty damn sure that Carr is a bust, (and nobody who has watched the Texans the past 4 seasons can legitimately say that) obtaining VY isn't worth these two players.

If you do draft VY, you've just knocked Carr's trade value down, because you are saying as an organization that he isn't worth keeping as your starting QB. You might get a future #2 draft pick for him.

It simply isn't worth all of this if you have any faith in Carr being even a "good" QB.

The Texans have already figured this out. It's time VY supporters follow suit.

You know they carried the comments on Arizona from Kubiak. The key comments on the national circuit is they havn't even seriously evaluated Bush or VY, just had fun watching them.

Do you think once Kubiak goes to study VY and if he concludes VY has the most talent and intangibles wrapped into a QB prospect since John Elway he is going to pass on him.


Again, my largest issue is the drop in trade value that looking for trades on Carr would bring us. Call me a fool, but I think a trained monkey could run an offense with AJ and Bush to look for.

I still think that Carr, at best, is a "good" QB. I guess I'd need to see what kind of trades for Carr we could get. One thing is for sure: You don't keep both on the roster. If you're going to trade Carr, you're not going to get much in value for him, mainly due to his contract.

As I stated, this scenario isn't about VY vs. Bush. It's VY vs. Bush and Carr. I don't think he's worth it personally.

That said, if the Texans decide to pick VY, I certainly won't whine about it.

If you keep Carr and he doesn't become a good NFL QB with that contract he is a huge hindrince to your organization. It isn't like the are not huge risk keeping him. There are no "safe" choices. Given the Texans were 2-14, they should go for the move with the most upside, whatever that ends up being.

I agree to write off the Texans if they don't pick VY is uncool. I won't like it if they go this direction (no VY), particularly if they didn't convince me they fully explored all possible manovers, but nor would I write them off either.

Like I said, the key "news" from Kubiak where I live (AZ) is that they haven't even begun to evaluate the prospects. Sure they like Carr, what else can they say at this point that wouldn't kill his confidence if they want to keep him or trade value if they end up deciding it is best to move on.

[VesceySux]

BTW, while you're in the discussion about starting over, would you be willing to give up Dunta Robinson and David Carr for the #2 pick? That way, we get both of them. Maybe even for less?

Absolutely not. A good cornerback is harder to find than a good running back. Just ask the Broncos.

[nWo34Life]

Wow.

I think the good news about all this is that we are arguing positively for this squad. It's about time that there are positive things being said of this team after this past crappy year. This team is finally moving in the right direction.

- Finally got a good candidate as coach from an offensive-minded playoff team in Kubiak.

- Kubiak had a plan already for this squad before he was even signed - picking the right choices for coaches left and right...

- We have the chance to pick from 2 could-be NFL superstars in the draft - personally I want Bush :) .

And...

- Has anyone noticed the publicity we have been getting from all sports stations (ESPN, Fox Sports, CNNSI, etc.)?

Life is good for right now...

[DaDakota]

Always talk up your assets before you trade em.

Buh bye Carr.

DD

[DVauthrin]

A) David Carr has infinitely more trade value than Dominick Davis, regardless of who they draft. Davis might get you a 3rd rounder if you are lucky. Carr should get a 2nd or even possibly a late 1st rounder.

B) Therefore, unless Bush or Davis can be so good as a WR2 every play, it is not helping the team that much in the short term. These are identical backs, not complementary backs

C) The texans really suck. It's a talent issue. They have way too many holes to be anything more than 7-9/8-8 ish right now. They are rebuilding whether the fans like it or not.

D) I hope they are prepared for the mass exodus of their fan base if they don't draft Vince and the team sucks(highly likely) while Vince is an impact player from the moment he stepped on the field. I can't believe a Houston based franchise that has had a chance to get two local studs the last two years, would pass them up both times. They already upset me when Casserly knew he needed LB's and Derrick Johnson slid right into their lap and he traded down to take a guy who didn't even see the field much last year. It's one thing if either of these two players were at positions that couldn't use upgrading, or weren't the cream of the crop at their positions, but they were.

[ktvoss]

Always talk up your assets before you trade em.

Buh bye Carr.

DD

Your ability to disregard and see things in a blind manner apalls me. It is overwhelming as well as annoying.

[Chance]

I'm not as pissed now as I was when I got back from the press conference but reading you guy's posts was interesting. It's no secret I want VY here because he brings the most good mojo to the team. Him winning here is of paramount importance for this dream to come true. Him coming home can be 'special'. More special than winning without him to me. And I think it would be a healthy debate of 'loyalty' (or lack thereof) when considering that I am willing to cheer for a team and buy their gear and all that based on "my guy" going there. The only ties I have to the Texans are geographic. If Vince comes here then I can add 'emotional' ties.

It wasn't 'winning' that made me a Rockets fan. It was Hakeem Olajuwan coming out of UH. Since then win or lose they have been my team. When Dream left for Canada I stopped liking him becuase it seemed crappy. I liked what he did here but not him. But I was hooked and will root for the Rockets forever. Analogy - If TJ Ford was in my estimation the best basketball player I have ever seen and singlehandedly won March Madness for my horns (whom I am loyal to because I went there) and the Rockets had the first pick and they had an average point guard at the time...nothing spectaculr, just average, I would want them to pick him but their decision would not affect me being a Rockets nut. They could draft anyone and I would be a fan of theirs.

Continuiung on this loyalty theme for the Astros and Oilers their chief of security back in the late 70s was a friend of family so I got to meet a bunch of the players and behind the scenes guys and they were all great so I developed a loyalty to them that still lasts with the Astros and died when the Oiler's left. And speaking of The Oiler's...that was when I realized that in professional sports loyalty is not reciprocated. I am loyal to my friends and family and they are loyal to me. Sports franchises? They are loyal to my money, not me. I am fine with that. They put on great shows and I love the games they play so well so I have no problem watching them and buying their crap and being influenced by the products advertised by them.

So other than a proximity issue what have the Texans done to earn loyalty? I am not going to be blindly loyal at the beginning. The Rockets have earned my blind loyalty. So have the Astros and Longhorns. The Texans have not. Congratulations Texans. You moved down the street from me. This town was like a crack whore waiting for a $5 rock without the NFL. Legions of fans just said, "Here's my heart Bob...do with it what you will." I didn't do that. I've cheered for them. Wrote songs for them. Promoted the hell out of them on the station. But I have not given them my heart. Some folks have and good for them. To each his own. I have not had that galvanizing moment with them and it would be crushing to me and to a lot of other people if they did not sieze this opportunity and lock us for good. To any of you guys on the bbs that don't get that fine. Your opinions are just as valued.

Don't doubt my loyalty just because it is not in line with yours. I respect your opinion and do not have a single bad thing to say about Reggie Bush or the posters on here that only want whats best for the team. Maybe you have had that galvanizing moment or maybe you threw your heart at Bob when the announcement was made that the NFL was coming back to H-Town. So you have authentic loyalty. I don't yet. It hasn't been earned.

I am just your average, run of the mill DIE HARD sports fan and I am cautious with my heart. The Texans have done NOTHING to hook me. This would hook me. And I want to be hooked.

[DaDakota]

I am just your average, run of the mill DIE HARD sports fan and I am cautious with my heart. The Texans have done NOTHING to hook me. This would hook me. And I want to be hooked.

Well spoken my Brother !!

In hoc !!!

Steak sauce and.......

[ktvoss]

Either way, Chance, it doesn't matter. You will be back when we start winning. Vince Young isn't the end all, be all draft pick player. This franchise is just getting started and it has a future. You are CLEARLY overreacting.

[codell]

Im hoping we draft Bush just so we can watch all the Longhorn Fans reach for the purple koolaid and off themselves over the whole thing. :cool:

[swilkins]

...I am just your average, run of the mill DIE HARD sports fan and I am cautious with my heart. The Texans have done NOTHING to hook me. This would hook me. And I want to be hooked.

I get the impression that you have suffered from bad relationships and have attachment issues.

I'm not as weary. I just want the Houston Texans to kick ass.

[ktvoss]

The Vince fans remind me of Lloyd Christmas from Dumb and Dumber:

"A million to one? So you're telling me there's a chance? Yeah!"

To stir the pot a bit, I think there's a real chance that the Titans won't take Young with the 3rd pick. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Tennessee trades out of the #3 pick, and that Ferguson is the target. The Great Vince Young could go through a little free fall come draft day.

[DVauthrin]

The Vince fans remind me of Lloyd Christmas from Dumb and Dumber:

"A million to one? So you're telling me there's a chance? Yeah!"

To stir the pot a bit, I think there's a real chance that the Titans won't take Young with the 3rd pick. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Tennessee trades out of the #3 pick, and that Ferguson is the target. The Great Vince Young could go through a little free fall come draft day.

If he falls into the lower part of the top ten, he is a major steal. That would be a classic case of teams overvaluing combine stats rather than the player's on field performance.

[nWo34Life]

Should we just rename the Texans to the Houston Longhorns when we draft VY - since we will be gaining so many Longhorn fans?

Or should we just draft Bush and stick with Carr and call ourselves the Houston Texans - and let the real fans come out of the woodwork and support their team, even if they suck?

Just curious...

[swilkins]

The Vince fans remind me of Lloyd Christmas from Dumb and Dumber:

"A million to one? So you're telling me there's a chance? Yeah!"

To stir the pot a bit, I think there's a real chance that the Titans won't take Young with the 3rd pick. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Tennessee trades out of the #3 pick, and that Ferguson is the target. The Great Vince Young could go through a little free fall come draft day.

If Vince is available at #3, the Titans should jump all over it. He's already McNair's under-study. That would be awesome. Then we get to kick Young's butt twice every year.

[gr8-1]

The Great Vince Young could go through a little free fall come draft day.


Sounds like that will brighten up your day.


He wouldnt' be the first nor will he be the last to have that happen to him.


I don't blame the Texans for taking Bush. He's a good looking player, though something tells me he's not 6' 200 pounds.

[DVauthrin]

Should we just rename the Texans to the Houston Longhorns when we draft VY - since we will be gaining so many Longhorn fans?

Or should we just draft Bush and stick with Carr and call ourselves the Houston Texans - and let the real fans come out of the woodwork and support their team, even if they suck?

Just curious...

I'm so sick of this crap. Drafting Vince has little to do with the fact he played at Texas. It has everything to do with the fact he proved in the biggest stage possible that he was the best player in college football, at the most important position in the NFL. The fact he is a hometown legend is icing on the cake. Do I like my Horns, yes. I am an alum. But as I said earlier, it's because Vince, and DJ last year were elite prospects period, why they should draft them.

Also, again, I would like to hear an answer about whether people think bush or davis can handle being a 2nd WR full time, because if not the two players do not really complement each other at all. And Davis would net you much less in a trade than Carr, for the simple reason of scarcity at the QB position.

[gr8-1]

Should we just rename the Texans to the Houston Longhorns when we draft VY - since we will be gaining so many Longhorn fans?

...

Similar logos

[gr8-1]

Either way, Chance, it doesn't matter. You will be back when we start winning.


I'm just not sure that's gonna happen with Charlie at the helm.

[swilkins]

If he falls into the lower part of the top ten, he is a major steal. That would be a classic case of teams overvaluing combine stats rather than the player's on field performance.

He'll be traded for extra picks, before that happens.

[HillBoy]

it's about hitting the homerun, msn.

drafting bush doesn't guarantee wins

drafting VY doesn't guarantee wins

but of the two, none would be more marketable...none would add more value to the franchise....than winning WITH VY.
That may very well be but the key thing to remember in your post is that they will "win" with VY. If for whatever reason it's 2 years down the road and they aren't winning with VY, while say RB is lighting up the league at Tennessee, then just how many tickets and no. 7 jerseys do you think they'll be selling then? Fans are fickle and the very same guys that I hear today calling into the radio and tearing Carr apart while going "gleep" over VY will be the same guys bitching about how VY can't transform the Texans into a winning team.

[HillBoy]

Your ability to disregard and see things in a blind manner apalls me. It is overwhelming as well as annoying.
DaD is not annoying - he's in LOVE! :D

[nWo34Life]

Similar logos

Texans Fans

Longhorn Fans

Two different realms....

I'm not a Longhorn alum or a fan. Don't follow college football much until the bowls arrive and the NFL draft comes up. I just want to see who my team picks to improve the squad.

I'm a blue, red and white blooded Houston Texans fan.

I'm glad to be in the position we're in.

I will not give up on Carr. I think we haven't seen his full talent. With a coach like Kubiak, things will change around here (I hope). Better OL, better defense, and better coaches. You guys will see a different Carr with Bush and Davis in the backfield.

[DVauthrin]

Texans Fans

Longhorn Fans

Two different realms....

I'm not a Longhorn alum or a fan. Don't follow college football much until the bowls arrive and the NFL draft comes up. I just want to see who my team picks to improve the squad.

I'm a blue, red and white blooded Houston Texans fan.

I'm glad to be in the position we're in.

I will not give up on Carr. I think we haven't seen his full talent. With a coach like Kubiak, things will change around here (I hope). Better OL, better defense, and better coaches. You guys will see a different Carr with Bush and Davis in the backfield.

How are you going to use two similar players in the backfield? You have to use one of them in the slot almost every play to make it work and while they may be good at RB catching the ball, how good are they at essentially playing the 2nd WR spot.

[msn]

More special than winning without him to me.
That's cool; especially since you admit it. Me, as someone so eloquently said, I just want the Texans to kick ass.

It wasn't 'winning' that made me a Rockets fan. It was Hakeem Olajuwan coming out of UH.... so I got to meet a bunch of the [Astros' and Oilers'] players and behind the scenes guys and they were all great so I developed a loyalty to them...
Cool. Me, I love Houston. So, aside from "loyalty," I want teams that are from Houston--all of them--to kick ass. Hard. And take names. Just because they're from Houston. But, that's me.

in professional sports loyalty is not reciprocated. I am loyal to my friends and family and they are loyal to me. Sports franchises? They are loyal to my money, not me. I am fine with that.... So other than a proximity issue what have the Texans done to earn loyalty? I am not going to be blindly loyal at the beginning.
Cool. Again, it's Houston I'm partial to. And Texas, too, with the exception of Dallas (because we all know that's not Texas). :D When the Earthquakes begin playing here, I hope to see a W in the box score when I open that joke of a sports section in The Chronicle. Because they play in Houston now, baby.

I like other franchises and all, even the Titans, but everybody's a second fiddle to anybody from Houston.

This town was like a crack whore waiting for a $5 rock without the NFL. Legions of fans just said, "Here's my heart Bob...do with it what you will." I didn't do that.... I have not given them my heart.
Respectfully, this is utter bs. It's not a marriage covenant, dude. Nobody "has my heart" except Jesus and my wife.

Don't doubt my loyalty just because it is not in line with yours.
I just don't think loyalty is an appropriate concept with something as trivial as sports teams. I want Houston teams to win because I love Houston. Loyal--I'm loyal to the USA. If they'd let a fat guy, I'd go fight in the war right now. I'm loyal to my wife. I'm loyal to my God. But a sports franchise? I just want to see the Houston ones win. And the SA and Austin ones, unless they play Houston. El Paso, San Angelo, Laredo, and Kingsville are fine, too. And Round Rock. And Corpus. And Nacogdoches. Just not, well, that other place. But, I digress...

[reggietodd]

Chance - Nice post, and I respect your stance. I overreacted when I first read your post and how you were going to become a saints fan.

[msn]

El Paso, San Angelo, Laredo, and Kingsville are fine, too. And Round Rock. And Corpus. And Nacogdoches....
Crap, left out College Station and San Marcos. And Lubbock. But you catch my drift.

[Rocket River]

Well spoken my Brother !!

In hoc !!!

Steak sauce and.......


I agree with Chance as well
I had left the NFL
when the Oilers Left

I was learning to Like the Texans
but
I do not have a Galvanizing moment with them yet
I have not CONNECTED with anyone on this team


Rocket River

[KingCheetah]

I'll be happy if we draft Bush he's a great player ~ with Vince though I think he's just once in a lifetime.

Great times for Texan fans. :cool:

[reggietodd]

The future is so bright for the Houston Texans right now. I've always been a big Mike Shanahan fan, and we are getting his understudy to lead this team.

Kubiak played in Denver as John Elways backup, he played for Dan Reeves, he's been to the superbowl numerous times, he spent a short time with Steve Young. He knows denver's offensive line blocking scheme that has been so effictive even with smaller guys, his running backs always produce, he uses tight ends effectively and utilizes play action. He helped Jake Plummer make the pro bowl somehow. If he can do that with Plummer, no doubt he can get Carr going. I was disgusted with Carr this year, I could not stand watching the guy, but then I think back to last year and even the year before and Carr was not bad, not bad at all, he was improving every year until this year. Get a good coach in there, some new attitudes, better blocking scheme, and put some weapons around Carr and we are in business. Kubiak always wanted this Texans head coaching job, he has all the experience mentioned above and he has the passion to coach this team. He knows how to win, he's a winner.

We have the number 1 pick. I trust Kubiak and Mcnair to do the right thing with it. I would say the same for Casserly, but he's goofed in the past. During Matt Jackson's interview today he asked Mcnair how much are the picks on Casserly and how much on the coaching staff? Mcnair said that the coaches tell Casserly what type of players they want for their system and he does his best to fill that. So, I am blaming Dum Capers on our crappy picks over the past few drafts. I am not a Dum fan, was never a Dum fan, he doesn't impress me, not one bit. You put a decent defense out there, play conservative and don't turn the ball over, sure you'll win a few games, maybe even be .500 one year, but that won't get you to the superbowl. Dum is a good defensive coordinator, but he doesn' thave the intelligence to run an entire football team.

I personally hope we get Reggie Bush, but if we don't i'll still believe we are doing the right thing because I trust Kubiak. He knows what it takes to win, he knows what pieces need to fit into the puzzle, he knows the ingredients to a winning formula. VY is a badass and he proved it in the Rose Bowl, but I'm still sold on Reggie Bush. I still remember before the rose bowl, I remember the Bush bowl, the heisman race, I think this guy is amazing. Just the thought that he may be on the Texans one day caused me to Tivo some of the USC games this year. I have the Fresno game, notre dame, and the rose bowl. When he hits the hole or accelerates, it honestly looks like someone is pressing fast forward. With Kubiak's offensive imagination, there is no telling how many ways he will utialize Bush, the possibilites are endless. And the thought of it, is exciting.

Aside from the 1st overall pick, if i'm not mistaken I think we also have the 1st pick in the second round, along with 6 other picks in subsequent rounds. I can see them building the defense and possibly the O-line with these picks. I can also see a handfull of Denver's free agents following Kubiak to Houston. Houston is a good place to be. Great owner, new stadium/facilites, great coach, and hopefully an excellent 2006 Draft. Houston is a very attractive place for free agents right now, hopefully we'll get a few. I've even heard, although its a stretch, but John Elway may come help out with the quarterbacks & possibly become the quarterbacks coach. How sweet would that be?

I'm a Texan fan, but like many of you have mentioned before, i'm not a die hard. The Texans haven't given us anything to be die hard about. But I think this is the turning point for this team. We had a horrible year. Adversity builds character. This team now has character, there is only one way to go but up. If we lose fans based on who we decided to draft, it won't be many, but there will be a handfull of longhorn fans and Madison high fans that we may lose, but once we start winning and once we have an offense that doesn't put people to sleep, we'll gain even more fans and hopefully the ones we lost will come back. The Texans are on their way up and we, the fans, have so much to be excited about.

Sorry about the Novel, but i'm pumped! Go Texans.

[Blatz]

I'll be happy if we draft Bush he's a great player ~ with Vince though I think he's just once in a lifetime.

Great times for Texan fans. :cool:

I agree except for that once in a life time bit, I haven't sipped the 610 kool-aid yet. Not that you have, I just think both will be great players. I'm still not sure who I want.

[nWo34Life]

How are you going to use two similar players in the backfield? You have to use one of them in the slot almost every play to make it work.

That is what I meant. 1 in the slot and from his college career, he has good hands to catch the ball. Bush will be a threat wherever he is on the field.

and while they may be good at RB catching the ball, how good are they at essentially playing the 2nd WR spot.

Jerome Mathis seems like he can fill that 2nd WR slot with his speed. Gaffney could and he showed he can play when AJ was out, but I don't think he's the man for the job. Or we could find someone from the draft or FA. Either way, we will find someone.

[gucci888]

That is what I meant. 1 in the slot and from his college career, he has good hands to catch the ball. Bush will be a threat wherever he is on the field.



Jerome Mathis seems like he can fill that 2nd WR slot with his speed. Gaffney could and he showed he can play when AJ was out, but I don't think he's the man for the job. Or we could find someone from the draft or FA. Either way, we will find someone.

Mathis doesn't exactly have the best hands to be a 2nd WR option. Gaffney played better this season. Bradford needs to go.

[Possum]

Your ability to disregard and see things in a blind manner apalls me. It is overwhelming as well as annoying.

Youre inability to see through the BS is annoying. NOTHING is wrote in stone at this point. Their is just as good a chance we draft VY as there is we draft Bush or trade down. And what has been said about Carr so far is exactly what was expected.

I'm really curious as to what you thought they were going to say. Im even more curious as to what you think they should of said. You have so convinced yourself of what you think is going to happen that its blindedyou.

[rocks_fan]

Personally, I'm of a mind that no matter WHO the Texans draft, I will be a Texans fan because they represent my town in the NFL. Maybe it's blind loyalty, I don't know. I just don't see how people can say "I'm a Texans fan UNLESS THEY DON'T DRAFT [insert name here]!" To me, that doesn't make you a Texans fan, it makes you someone who FOLLOWS the Texans. There's a difference (in my mind, at least).

Finally, I think a lineup of Carr/Davis/Bush (I'd be willing to bet money Bush sees time all over the field in an attempt to get him the ball in space as much as possible) would be better for the Texans than Young/Davis. Both are special players, but Bush offers the team a versatile playmaker who will draw attention wherever he goes. Young's mobility will definitely be an asset in the NFL, but pro players are elite level athletes. He won't have near as much success running away from someone like Dwight Freeney as he did some poor kid from Baylor or Oklahoma State.

[pgabriel]

I love the "I'm a true fan" posts. They're so condescending. I'm not gonna lie, slapping "Houston" on your jerseys isn't enough for me. I haven't really gotten into this team and they need to do something special for me personally. but that's just me.

[DonnyMost]

I love the "I'm a true fan" posts. They're so condescending. I'm not gonna lie, slapping "Houston" on your jerseys isn't enough for me. I haven't really gotten into this team and they need to do something special for me personally. but that's just me.

What would that something special be? Winning? Or drafting VY?

On the whole, I'm only seeing this kind of sentiment from UT fans who want their guy in our uni... like it's some kind of threat that they will "boycott" the team.

Meanwhile, lots of other people love this team unconditionally and want them to succeed first and foremost..

[pgabriel]

What would that something special be? Winning? Or drafting VY?

On the whole, I'm only seeing this kind of sentiment from UT fans who want their guy in our uni... like it's some kind of threat that they will "boycott" the team.

Meanwhile, lots of other people love this team unconditionally and want them to succeed first and foremost..


I'm just saying, the franchise has been pretty bland since its inception. it has never really done anything to get me excited. I've never gotten into them. that's just me, if you want to love them unconditionally that's your option.

[MadMax]

I love the "I'm a true fan" posts. They're so condescending. I'm not gonna lie, slapping "Houston" on your jerseys isn't enough for me. I haven't really gotten into this team and they need to do something special for me personally. but that's just me.

i'm guilty of this with the Astros. i slapped people around last season....but keep in mind, the Astros were in the World freakign Series last year and the "fans" were talking about how poor they were.

The Astros are part of me...I grew up with them. There's feeling there. It was special for me to take both of my sons to their very first Astros game. I grew up with them...and I was sharing that with them.

I just don't have that with the Texans. I want it. I really do. I think my older son has it to some degree, because they're all he's known. But I don't. I knew the Oilers...and then that was ripped out. And I rooted for the Saints and the Patriots while they were gone...before the Texans..because they were teams I liked since I was a little boy. (good timing for the Pats, by the way! :) )

Whoever gets VY will hold my interest big time. If the Texans get him, it's on. If they don't...frankly...I'll be disappointed.

[codell]

On the whole, I'm only seeing this kind of sentiment from UT fans who want their guy in our uni... like it's some kind of threat that they will "boycott" the team.

Agreed.

[Chance]

Okay now I have had a chance to organize my thoughts a little better. I went to Microsoft Word and went to town:

When the Oilers left, Houston was left in a state of shock. This football-Mecca of a city no longer had a professional team and the fans were scarred. We got a taste of the fact that loyalty to a sports franchise was not a reciprocal emotion. The attachment we felt to the team was not given back and this was a sobering fact.

Flash forward a half a decade and for some absence truly made the heart grow fonder and Bob McNair was the knight in shining armor bringing professional football back to Houston, Texas. These fans were injured but loved football so much that they transferred their loyalty immediately and started bleeding Battle Red.

For others the wound was deeper. They recognized that The Texans coming to Houston was a great thing and were excited by the pageantry that surrounds a pro team in the city. They bought the gear and watched the games. They rooted for the team to win. Some of them bought PSL’s and season tickets. But the attachment to the 32nd franchise was guarded.

There was another group of Houstonians that were hurt more than the other two groups. These folks were disgusted by Bud Adams and The Oilers and gave up on the NFL product. Much like Major League Baseball is still recapturing fans from the strike The Texans are still fighting for this segment of fans.

This brings us to the 2005 NCAA football season. The Year of The Trojan. ESPN crowned USC as Champion of the Rose Bowl in September and the marketing machine was set on its highest gear. Unprecedented attention was given to the soon-to-be three-peaters and their quest for infamy. And all along Houston’s own Vince Young was not-so-quietly looming in the shadows, doing the impossible much like USC’s much-heralded Reggie Bush. Statistically they were both phenomenal, once-in-a-lifetime collegiate players. After the games of December 3rd the stage was set. Vince Young versus two Heisman winners. The outcome of this game was predetermined. USC would win. ESPN was more concerned with USC beating the greatest teams in college history than beating Vince and the Longhorns.

January 4th, 2006. We all remember the game. Leinart had amazing numbers. Reggie had amazing numbers. And the kid from Houston put on an inhuman show and shocked the nation with what has been called by some as “The greatest performance in the greatest game ever played”. In a night that followed suffocating hype and under unparalleled football pressure, time stopped for a moment after the 4th and 5, 8-yard Touchdown run by the Superhero with the strange throwing motion.

For four months Vince Young was electrifying stadiums, living rooms, and bars as he redefined the potential for the quarterback position. And all along The Texans were laying eggs in one of the most boring seasons in professional football history. In a city that was starved of professional football for so long and then forced to suffer through the uninspiring product on the field in 2005 it became apparent that the honeymoon was in fact over. The sold out Reliant Stadium was half-full. The beer vendors that were raking in the tips from a raucous crowd in the past were now digging lint balls out of their trousers. The tailgaters were uninterested. The hooligans in the Bull Pen were not wearing papier-mâché bull heads. Dads were cutting the grass at noon on Sundays and the television ratings proved it. The Texans sucked and earned the first pick in the draft.

No topic has ever been more heated on Houston sports radio stations than the Great Vince/Reggie debate of 2006. Period. Not steroids in baseball. Not the Rockets back-to-back championships. Not move Steve Francis to the two. Nothing. Ever.

The Texans are finally warranting front page consideration. After an embarrassing season The Texans are back in the headlines. However they are disproving the axiom that ‘any press is good press’ because with each passing day they are alienating themselves from people that love their city but only like The Texans…if that. What I would give to have been a fly on the wall of The Texans conference rooms as the PR spin machine tried to veil the Texans intentions with the first pick during the announcement of Gary Kubiak as head coach. Coach Kubiak was well coached. Every Vince Young question was stealthily deflected by the new chief to incorporate Vince and Reggie. When Bob McNair spoke he was certain to sing the praises of the stars of his 30th ranked offense. And David Carr? His name was brought up more than Coach Kubiak’s and one would think that David had just come off a Super Bowl victory with the way that The Texans brass were glorifying him.

Does that brass know that with limited exceptions, Houston has lost faith in Carr? I realize that they have made a great investment in the face of the franchise but have they considered the fact that the fans have not? David Carr may be a great quarterback someday. He may culminate his skills and make an NFL team happy. But he has lost this city and whether it is his, Dom Caper’s, Chris Palmer’s, the offensive line’s, or nobody’s fault is immaterial. He’s lost the ability to rally the troops on the field and the fannies in the stands.

Vince Young can be the cog that galvanizes this city behind the team. He can be the piece of the puzzle that instantly creates an emotional connection to the organization. The Oilers showed us that football is a business and the only tie that each franchise has to the citizens of the cities they represent is geographic. We cohabitate Houston with The Texans, that’s it. This is not about Vince the Longhorn. This is about Vince the Houstonian. He epitomizes the winning spirit that we Houstonians expect out of our team. The Texans have an opportunity to distance themselves from the heartache of the Oilers and create a bond with the people of this city that didn’t dive in without testing the water. Everyone is quick to point out that winning cures all ailments and this is true. Winning will put butts in the seats and pique interest in the team. If The Texans win with Reggie Bush then Houstonians will yell and scream and cheer “They did it! They won! They are winners!”

If The Texans win with Vince Young the same fans will yell and scream and cheer “We did it! We won! We are winners!”

Big difference there folks.

[swilkins]

Okay now I have had a chance to organize my thoughts a little better. I went to Microsoft Word and went to town... 5,000,000 words...Big difference there folks.

Could we limit responses to less than 5,000 words?

I know where you stand. That's fine.

[msn]

....
Overdone, overreacted.

It's a football team. That's it. He's a football player, not a "hero", and not a "superhero". We have some heros in Iraq right now. There were some heros during Rita and Katrina, and some big heros back on 9/11. A football player ain't a hero.

I'm sorry dude, but your response to all this seems pretty childish, especially with the whole conspiracy/spin smack. Take a walk today and listen to some birds sing. Go watch some kids play pick-up basketball, and kiss your wife or g/f.

[msn]

.....
Can I ask you a favor?

I'm at work, and I wanted to check your site out.

When you post links that have loud music on the page, can you put a little disclaimer or warning? I freaking hate websites that instantly start blaring music with no warning--I sit right next my supervisor, for cryin' out loud.

Anyways, I can't tell you what to do, just asking for the courtesy.

[Chance]

Could we limit responses to less than 5,000 words?

I know where you stand. That's fine.

Actually,

http://64.202.163.199/chancekear/vy.jpg

[Chance]

Can I ask you a favor?

I'm at work, and I wanted to check your site out.

When you post links that have loud music on the page, can you put a little disclaimer or warning? I freaking hate websites that instantly start blaring music with no warning--I sit right next my supervisor, for cryin' out loud.

Anyways, I can't tell you what to do, just asking for the courtesy.

sorry about that. I will fix it. And the diatribe was for the site...not specifically for the bbs!

[MadMax]

Overdone, overreacted.

It's a football team. That's it. He's a football player, not a "hero", and not a "superhero". We have some heros in Iraq right now. There were some heros during Rita and Katrina, and some big heros back on 9/11. A football player ain't a hero.

I'm sorry dude, but your response to all this seems pretty childish, especially with the whole conspiracy/spin smack. Take a walk today and listen to some birds sing. Go watch some kids play pick-up basketball, and kiss your wife or g/f.

come on, msn. the only reason you watch sports is due to geographical devotion? maybe that's your reason...and there's nothing wrong with that. but that's not why i watch.

i watch because it's metaphor for life...i watch because sometimes an athlete captures my imagination and models in some way an attribute i admire and/or wish i had more of. VY is that kind of athlete in my view.

i'm going to meet craig biggio tonight. going to a baseball dinner downtown. i'm giddy like i'm a school kid. i can't wait. i realize there's something silly abouut that...but it is what it is. i've been watching this guy play baseball since i was in 8th grade. he is among my favorite athletes ever on any level. not just because he was a good baseball player...good baseball players are a dime a dozen...there's something more than that with Craig.

i'm telling you i ALREADY feel that way about VY, and he hasn't played one down on the pro level. i'm telling you, whether it's right or wrong, people do make heros of athletes.

the condescension is what's ridiculous, msn. yeah..you're more mature..more balanced because you're hooked on the texans. makes sense. chance is a child because he has stronger feelings watching VY play than he's ever had watching the Texans play.

[Groogrux]

the condescension is what's ridiculous

This is the exact reason why I'm leaning towards VY. Bush supporters love to say that the only reasons VY supporters want him are a) he's from UT and b) because of one game.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's an amazing talent. :rolleyes:

[reggietodd]

You guys lay off Chance. I respect his stance and the fact that he took the time to write all of that out. That is what these message boards are for. If all of us agreed on everything, then there would not even be a reason for us to be on here sharing our ideas.

I do think Chance has gone a little overboard, but some people are that passionate about sports. I think the Texans know what they are doing, I understand that some Longhorn fans may not be happy about it, but to boycott, or try to hold the Texans accountable for not drafting your favorite college football player is just nuts, especially if you are an adult.

[SWTsig]

Again, my largest issue is the drop in trade value that looking for trades on Carr would bring us. Call me a fool, but I think a trained monkey could run an offense with AJ and Bush to look for.

I still think that Carr, at best, is a "good" QB. I guess I'd need to see what kind of trades for Carr we could get. One thing is for sure: You don't keep both on the roster. If you're going to trade Carr, you're not going to get much in value for him, mainly due to his contract.

As I stated, this scenario isn't about VY vs. Bush. It's VY vs. Bush and Carr. I don't think he's worth it personally.

That said, if the Texans decide to pick VY, I certainly won't whine about it.

well if that's the case, then you'd have to decide between VY, DD, & AJ vs. Bush, Carr, & AJ. Kubiak has an excellent track record w/ both QB's and RB's.

they both look pretty good, but i'm still leaning towards VY. there's just something about him that says to me "not drafting this guy will come back to bite you in the ass." VY as a Texan just feels right.

[msn]

come on, msn. the only reason you watch sports is due to geographical devotion? maybe that's your reason...and there's nothing wrong with that. but that's not why i watch.
No, I watch sports because I love competition. I like more teams than Houston ones, I'm just partial to Houston.

In my longer post above, I was cutting up, saying the same stuff over and over. But when I said, "cool", I meant it--as in, it's cool for one person to feel that way, and this is how I feel. I didn't mean to say I was *right* about it, just different. It's only sports, for crying out loud.

i watch because it's metaphor for life...i watch because sometimes an athlete captures my imagination and models in some way an attribute i admire and/or wish i had more of. VY is that kind of athlete in my view.

i'm going to meet craig biggio tonight. going to a baseball dinner downtown. i'm giddy like i'm a school kid. i can't wait. i realize there's something silly abouut that...but it is what it is. i've been watching this guy play baseball since i was in 8th grade. he is among my favorite athletes ever on any level. not just because he was a good baseball player...good baseball players are a dime a dozen...there's something more than that with Craig.
And I agree with all this. But they're not "heros" on the same par with heros.

i'm telling you i ALREADY feel that way about VY, and he hasn't played one down on the pro level.
Great! I don't, but that's what makes talking sports so interesting.

i'm telling you, whether it's right or wrong, people do make heros of athletes.
Understood. I thinks it's a little over the top.

the condescension is what's ridiculous, msn. yeah..you're more mature..more balanced because you're hooked on the texans.
OK, now I *never* said any of this. I am really sorry my post above about Houston sports teams came across condescending--what I meant to communicate, and evidently failed at it completely--is that while some folks only follow a team if that team captures their interest, I follow a team if its home is in Houston. I didn't mean to say that's better, because it's *not*. Just different. Honestly, I didn't.

makes sense. chance is a child because he has stronger feelings watching VY play than he's ever had watching the Texans play.
No, what was silly in my view was the long diatribes making this decision by Texans seem larger than life. I'm sorry if my language was too strong. I'm no better or more mature than anyone else here--heck, I'm wasting time typing in cyberspace about a game like the rest of us.

In short, since that whole schpiel came across in a condescending fashion, I am very sorry, because that wasn't the intention.

[reggietodd]

This is the exact reason why I'm leaning towards VY. Bush supporters love to say that the only reasons VY supporters want him are a) he's from UT and b) because of one game.

I think its about either drafting VY and giving up on Carr or giving Carr a chance to excel under a new coaching staff without the pressure of a #1 overall pick stud quarterback behind you. To me its not about VY, RB anymore.

Once that decision is made and you decide you want to keep Carr, then you rule out the fact that you arent' drafting a quarterback and then you reevaluate everything. And look at everyone you may take with that #1 pick excluding QBs.

[SWTsig]

Well spoken my Brother !!

In hoc !!!

Steak sauce and.......

you crazy EX's....

[Chance]

well if that's the case, then you'd have to decide between VY, DD, & AJ vs. Bush, Carr, & AJ. Kubiak has an excellent track record w/ both QB's and RB's.

they both look pretty good, but i'm still leaning towards VY. there's just something about him that says to me "not drafting this guy will come back to bite you in the ass." VY as a Texan just feels right.

Man that is so true. I wish Vince was not lopped in with Longhorn nation in this debate. I realize that they are forever conjointed but in this discussion it is about Vince's ties to Houston, not Austin. He happened to play at UT but his skillset seems to indicate that he would've done the same thing had he played at A&M, FSU, or USC. And his body of work would warrant a love affair from Houston irrespective of where he played, considering what he did.

EDIT msn...it's all good. Again my lengthy post was for my website but i thought it fit the direction of this topic.

[MadMax]

I do think Chance has gone a little overboard, but some people are that passionate about sports. I think the Texans know what they are doing, I understand that some Longhorn fans may not be happy about it, but to boycott, or try to hold the Texans accountable for not drafting your favorite college football player is just nuts, especially if you are an adult.


again...IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THAT!!!!! i don't think reggie bush will necessarily be a better player than VY. i think VY has the possibility of turning into a true franchise QB. i think franchise QB's are so rare that you don't pass them up because of players like David Carr. and you don't select a potential franchise RB ahead of a franchise QB.

to top that all off....(insert all the emotional/hometown/marketing/business arguments made on VY's behalf here since he declared eligible for the draft)

"lay off chance" and "i respect his stance"....don't jive real well with the "especially if you're an adult" comment.

again...if you want Bush...you're an adult. you're mature if you root for the Texans as a die-hard fan after 4 years. that's maturity.

if you're hoping the Texans select VY...if you think they'll be making a mistake otherwise...if you're not hooked on them yet....well...that's immature and child-like.

got it.

[Chance]

you crazy EX's....

we are nuts.

[msn]

sorry about that. I will fix it. And the diatribe was for the site...not specifically for the bbs!
Thanks! I went back (with volume knob down) and looked around for articles, but only found the letter.

[DonnyMost]

Vince Young can be the cog that galvanizes this city behind the team. He can be the piece of the puzzle that instantly creates an emotional connection to the organization. The Oilers showed us that football is a business and the only tie that each franchise has to the citizens of the cities they represent is geographic. We cohabitate Houston with The Texans, that’s it. This is not about Vince the Longhorn. This is about Vince the Houstonian. He epitomizes the winning spirit that we Houstonians expect out of our team. The Texans have an opportunity to distance themselves from the heartache of the Oilers and create a bond with the people of this city that didn’t dive in without testing the water. Everyone is quick to point out that winning cures all ailments and this is true. Winning will put butts in the seats and pique interest in the team. If The Texans win with Reggie Bush then Houstonians will yell and scream and cheer “They did it! They won! They are winners!”

If The Texans win with Vince Young the same fans will yell and scream and cheer “We did it! We won! We are winners!”

Big difference there folks.

Sorry Chance, but this is a load of bullplop.

I know you claim your UT bias has nothing to do with your viewpoint, but it's pretty obvious that it does.

Imagine if VY had gone to FSU, would you feel the same way? Would VY be getting half the buzz for the #1 pick in Houston with the UT faithful not caring on the matter? Doubtful.

[Chance]

Thanks! I went back (with volume knob down) and looked around for articles, but only found the letter.
yeah i am adding the stuff later. including a bunch of emails that have been sent in to the playas, crew, and shift.

[Chance]

Sorry Chance, but this is a load of bullplop.

I know you claim your UT bias has nothing to do with your viewpoint, but it's pretty obvious that it does.

Imagine if VY had gone to FSU, would you feel the same way? Would VY be getting half the buzz for the #1 pick in Houston with the UT faithful being ambivilent to the matter? Doubtful.

He went to UT so we'll never know. For the record I still wish R. Lewis was a Rocket. And his body of work before turning pro was nothing like VY's.

And incidentally I do think he would've been getting the hype in Houston but it would not have turned into a UT thing. It would've been a Houston thing like it should be now.

[DonnyMost]

He went to UT so we'll never know.

You mean you can't imagine, for just a split second, what your emotions would be if VY had gone elsewhere? If he hadn't played for the school you love and hold dear? It's not that much of a stretch.. If you can imagine these hypothetical scenarios it really helps you look at things rationally and objectively.

[Buck Turgidson]

Much like Major League Baseball is still recapturing fans from the strike...
Judging by tickets sold, MLB is more popular than it's ever been.

[reggietodd]

again...IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THAT!!!!! i don't think reggie bush will necessarily be a better player than VY. i think VY has the possibility of turning into a true franchise QB. i think franchise QB's are so rare that you don't pass them up because of players like David Carr. and you don't select a potential franchise RB ahead of a franchise QB.

to top that all off....(insert all the emotional/hometown/marketing/business arguments made on VY's behalf here since he declared eligible for the draft)

"lay off chance" and "i respect his stance"....don't jive real well with the "especially if you're an adult" comment.

again...if you want Bush...you're an adult. you're mature if you root for the Texans as a die-hard fan after 4 years. that's maturity.

if you're hoping the Texans select VY...if you think they'll be making a mistake otherwise...if you're not hooked on them yet....well...that's immature and child-like.

got it.

Max. Its not about Reggie Bush. Its about us not wanting to use another #1 overall pick when we have a quarterback who the organization believes in, have dumped an enormous amout of money into and a new coach who believes in him as well.

I said in my earlier post that i'm not a die hard Texan fan yet, but I think after this I will be.

For those of you who say it isn't about UT, I don't buy that one bit. Sure VY is awesome, but had he gone to Oklahoma and done the same things there, you guys would not be this passionate about him. Maybe some of you who grew up watching him at Madison, but had he not gone to UT this debate wouldn't be much of one.

Casserly said this morning that he is not so sure Tennessee will be drafting a QB either. Said they are working to get Mcnair a new contract and have Volek in there and think highly of him as well. Hell, VY may not even go in the top 5 and some of you are acting like its a no brainer for the Texans to pick him #1 Overall. :confused:

[MadMax]

You mean you can't imagine, for just a split second, what your emotions would be if VY had gone elsewhere? If he hadn't played for the school you love and hold dear? It's not that much of a stretch.. If you can imagine these hypothetical scenarios it really helps you look at things rationally and objectively.

i can tell you i would have followed his career like crazy at the college level. and had he had the kind of season for the seminoles that he just had for the longhorns...with the very same rose bowl performances over the past 2 years...i'd still be saying the texans should take him. i went to see the guy play high school games. i was a fan from the first time i saw him scramble to avoid pressure in the backfield and launch a 45 yard pinpoint strike to a streaking receiver downfield. looked at my father and said, "wow." incidentally, i believe that was about a year before the Texans ever took the field.

[reggietodd]

For the record I still wish R. Lewis was a Rocket.

I do too. He's one of the best players in the NBA. An all star. Of course i'd love to have him on the Rockets. They goofed. But then again, did they? If we had RL, I highly doubt we would have ever made the trade for Tmac. Blessing in disguise?

IF RL had been a bust would you still say you would have wanted him in houston? If VY becomes a pro bowl quarterback in the NFL in 5 years, then we can all say, "i'd like to have him on the Texans". Thats easy, by then we will know, but right now we don't.

[codell]

come on, msn. the only reason you watch sports is due to geographical devotion?

I can say thats pretty much the reason I watch it. I watch the Rockets, Astros, Texans, and sometimes, UH b-ball. I rarely will watch any other teams, unless its because nothing else is on, or its the Super Bowl, finals, etc.

Its about home-town pride. I don't think its absurd to suggest thats the reason most fans follow certain teams. The fact they become attached to certain players is BECAUSE of home-town pride and georgraphical devotion.

[Chance]

Judging by tickets sold, MLB is more popular than it's ever been.

It is at the level it was at prior to the strike. And that was in large part thanks to new parks. But your statement is fair.

[MadMax]

Casserly said this morning that he is not so sure Tennessee will be drafting a QB either. Said they are working to get Mcnair a new contract and have Volek in there and think highly of him as well. Hell, VY may not even go in the top 5 and some of you are acting like its a no brainer for the Texans to pick him #1 Overall. :confused:


1. wait...casserly said that? :) i'd have to open up a huge can of care on what casserly thinks for that to mean anything to me.

2. are these the same scouts/gms who passed on brady? or are these the scouts/gms who chose ryan leaf? no one is a no-brainer on the field. there is risk all the way around. the texans have a chance to do something very special here though...a chance to take a high-level talent who is already a hometown hero. chances like that don't come around often.

[MadMax]

I can say thats pretty much the reason I watch it. I watch the Rockets, Astros, Texans, and sometimes, UH b-ball. I rarely will watch any other teams, unless its because nothing else is on, or its the Super Bowl, finals, etc.

Its about home-town pride. I don't think its absurd to suggest thats the reason most fans follow certain teams. The fact they become attached to certain players is BECAUSE of home-town pride and georgraphical devotion.

i'm not saying it's absurd.

it's also not absurd to root for teams that are home to your favorite players.

[Dubious]

Chance, can you put a petition on the Pick Vince site and maybe have John and Lance give it a mention. It would be fun just to see what kind of numbers you could tally, not that it would mean anything.

Here's my deal again (briefly)

I lived and died with the career of Hakeem Olajuwon. I was totally invested in him as my sports hero because he was of local origin (to me), started sort of raw but you could see his superstar ability very early, he stayed tied to the community for most of his career and ultimately brought us a championship.

There is nothing in the world better than that and I want to do it again.
If you were a Rockets fan during The Dream era how can you not want to be a Texans fan during an In-Vince-able era.

( I could have included Petit/Clemmons/Berkman but didn't in the service of brevity)

[msn]

It is at the level it was at prior to the strike.
Which is saying a lot, because entertainment-wise there is far more available today--for cheaper no less--than there was in 1994. The entertainment market is now flooded with viable options, and everybody's share has diminished because of it.

[DonnyMost]

i can tell you i would have followed his career like crazy at the college level. and had he had the kind of season for the seminoles that he just had for the longhorns...with the very same rose bowl performances over the past 2 years...i'd still be saying the texans should take him. i went to see the guy play high school games. i was a fan from the first time i saw him scramble to avoid pressure in the backfield and launch a 45 yard pinpoint strike to a streaking receiver downfield. looked at my father and said, "wow." incidentally, i believe that was about a year before the Texans ever took the field.


Well said.

However, you do realize you would represent an incredibly small percentage of people..

[reggietodd]

2. are these the same scouts/gms who passed on brady? or are these the scouts/gms who chose ryan leaf? no one is a no-brainer on the field. there is risk all the way around. the texans have a chance to do something very special here though...a chance to take a high-level talent who is already a hometown hero. chances like that don't come around often.

But I think the point is, the hometown part should be completely thrown out of the equation if you are trying to build a winning football team.

[codell]

i'm not saying it's absurd.

it's also not absurd to root for teams that are home to your favorite players.

Agreed. But IMO, it is absurd to hold your loyalty hostage if your favorite player is not on your home town team (if the home town team had your loyalty in the first place).

[MadMax]

Agreed. But IMO, it is absurd to hold your loyalty hostage if your favorite player is not on your home town team (if the home town team had your loyalty in the first place).

i'm not holding anything or anyone hostage. it's the way i feel. it just is. i'm not calling the texans telling them i won't be as interested in their product...or that i think they're making a huge mistake. i'm not doing any of that. i'm not making threats...i'm simply sharing how i feel about it. i could lie and say otherwise if it makes people feel better about it.

[MadMax]

Well said.

However, you do realize you would represent an incredibly small percentage of people..


probably. but not from the area of town VY is from. you had an entire area become horns fans...many who never gave a damn about the university of texas before he was there.

but all that's hypo. he did win a national championship. he was the best player on the field. he did wear it wearing a texas jersey. he is a hometown boy. to act as if we live in a football bubble where none of that is taken into consideration is absurd.

[MadMax]

But I think the point is, the hometown part should be completely thrown out of the equation if you are trying to build a winning football team.

i'm saying it's an extra. i'm saying if you're looking at VY and RB and comparing the two...if they come up equal on the field...then the off the field and other criteria come into play more strongly than they would otherwise.

[Buck Turgidson]

i'm going to meet craig biggio tonight. going to a baseball dinner downtown....he is among my favorite athletes ever on any level. not just because he was a good baseball player...good baseball players are a dime a dozen...there's something more than that with Craig.
If you get a chance to talk to him, please tell him "thanks" for all the work he does with Sunshine Kids. I've seen how much it can mean to these kids, it's really unbelievable. And tell him Ben Ostdeik says "Hi!".

Chance, I know this is completely unrelated to the thread, but frankly I'm bored to tears with the whole VY-RB debate. You might find this article interesting:

[I]ndustry revenues more than doubled in the wake of the strike, from 1994’s $1.9 billion plus to 2005's projected $4.5 billion.
...
It was an outcome almost impossible to expect in the depths of the ’94 strike’s crisis, but fans quickly returned to the game. The most remarkable aspect of the game's attendance surge was the fact that so many returned so quickly- 1993’s record 70.3 million plus in MLB attendance was surpassed by 1998, and crept steadily upward for year after year. By 2004, the new attendance record was over 73 million, with 2005 expected to shatter that figure by two million or more. Those spectacular numbers have been boosted by record attendance related to the playoffs, the Minor Leagues, Spring Training, and the Hall of Fame, as well as powerhouse media ratings.

http://www.unitedstatesofbaseball.com/entry.asp?ENTRY_ID=66

[pgabriel]

its just rooting for a sports franchise people. who cares why someone roots for a team.

but as far as the topic is concerned, we've all seen the shot philly fans booing when they picked donovan mcnabb. are those people not real fans, they showed up to the freakin draft. and I'm sure they love donovan now. but just because they didn't like the pick at the begining doesn't make you a better fan than them. MadMax has season tickets. how many of you calling is position "absurd" have invested in the team like he has. some of you guys need to chill.

[codell]

probably. but not from the area of town VY is from. you had an entire area become horns fans...many who never gave a damn about the university of texas before he was there.

and who probably won't give a damn about UT now that he has left

[MadMax]

and who probably won't give a damn about UT now that he has left

some won't. some will. those who didn't bought the jerseys and pennants and t-shirts just the same.

[DonnyMost]

to act as if we live in a football bubble where none of that is taken into consideration is absurd.

None of it should be taken into consideration by the Texans.

[DonnyMost]

its just rooting for a sports franchise people. who cares why someone roots for a team.

but as far as the topic is concerned, we've all seen the shot philly fans booing when they picked donovan mcnabb. are those people not real fans, they showed up to the freakin draft. and I'm sure they love donovan now. but just because they didn't like the pick at the begining doesn't make you a better fan than them. MadMax has season tickets. how many of you calling is position "absurd" have invested in the team like he has. some of you guys need to chill.

If they made statements like "I'm never going to cheer for Philly again, Go Steelers!" because of it, then yes, they are crappy fans.

And if they turned around and started cheering for Philly when Donovan was ripping up the stat sheets and leading them to Championship game after Championship game, then they are total freaking chumps.

[MadMax]

None of it should be taken into consideration by the Texans.
it's still a business. there's no way it can't be taken into consideration. they'll tell you it won't. they'll tell you it's entirely a football decision. just like hiring someone in your office....but if the candidates are equal, the guy who grew up on your side of town...who graduated from your university...who was buddies with guys you knew...that guy has a distinct advantage.

[reggietodd]

who graduated from your university...who was buddies with guys you knew...that guy has a distinct advantage.

it should not be that way

[MadMax]

If they made statements like "I'm never going to cheer for Philly again, Go Steelers!" because of it, then yes, they are crappy fans.

that's what's funny about all this...it's ME saying this. i'm homer extraordinaire. seriously...i'm a homer and a half for the rockets and astros. apparently i'm not for the texans....i hope to be someday. but i'm not yet.

[MadMax]

it should not be that way


we're human. it's a human process. all other things being equal..that's the way it is.

we can let a computer make the decision...but until then, these factors can't/won't be ignored entirely...no matter how hard we try or how much we protest that they don't.

[DonnyMost]

it's still a business. there's no way it can't be taken into consideration. they'll tell you it won't. they'll tell you it's entirely a football decision. just like hiring someone in your office....but if the candidates are equal, the guy who grew up on your side of town...who graduated from your university...who was buddies with guys you knew...that guy has a distinct advantage.

You proved my point.

"It's still a business"

The Texans don't have any heart-strings to be pulled on here.. unlike your Madison high school graduate or UT fan.

They will do what is best for the team in terms of winning, because despite what Chance thinks, winning with some dude from China makes people just as happy as winning with some dude from Sugarland.

[pgabriel]

If they made statements like "I'm never going to cheer for Philly again, Go Steelers!" because of it, then yes, they are crappy fans.

And if they turned around and started cheering for Philly when Donovan was ripping up the stat sheets and leading them to Championship game after Championship game, then they are total freaking chumps.


you're a "real fan" the rest of us are chumps. congratulations. you win

[DonnyMost]

that's what's funny about all this...it's ME saying this. i'm homer extraordinaire. seriously...i'm a homer and a half for the rockets and astros. apparently i'm not for the texans....i hope to be someday. but i'm not yet.

It's a new franchise that has largely sucked.

The only "memories" we have are David Carr jumping over the Jags pile for the win and beating the Cowgirls.

It might take time for them to win people over, but turning your back on them because of a draft pick is insane.

[pgabriel]

the texans offensive line is awesome. I have no opinion. they must be, the team chose them. I'm a real fan.

[MadMax]

You proved my point.

"It's still a business"

The Texans don't have any heart-strings to be pulled on here.. unlike your Madison high school graduate or UT fan.

They will do what is best for the team in terms of winning, because despite what Chance thinks, winning with some dude from China makes people just as happy as winning with some dude from Sugarland.


i said all things being equal.

again..the assumption i keep hearing from those who are so strongly in your camp is that Reggie Bush equals wins.

i'm saying VY has the potential to win as much as RB does. and i'm saying there are other factors which push him over the top in my view.

i wouldn't let david carr keep me from getting at either player, frankly.

[codell]

some won't. some will. those who didn't bought the jerseys and pennants and t-shirts just the same.

from the Texans standpoint, I think they want to attract fans by having a winning franchise and not fans who will be gone when certain players are gone (although any fan support i am sure is a bonus at this point)

if the Texans believe Bush will make them a winning team, moreso than any other player, then thats what they have to worry about

in the end, more fans are going to support the team because its a winner, than will just becuase of one player

[MadMax]

It's a new franchise that has largely sucked.

The only "memories" we have are David Carr jumping over the Jags pile for the win and beating the Cowgirls.

It might take time for them to win people over, but turning your back on them because of a draft pick is insane.


ok, now it's insane. earlier it was immature. so i'm insanely immature. or childishly insane. or something like that.

fortunately those who would choose reggie are smarter, saner and far more mature human beings...and i'm sure they're looking out for me.

[DonnyMost]

you're a "real fan" the rest of us are chumps. congratulations. you win

Thanks. :cool:

Not exactly going for that point, in fact, I hate it when people compare the Ricky Williams-Donovan McNabb draft to this one.

I see very little similarities between them..

All I'm saying is, if you're going to be so brash as to kick this franchise to the curb over this one pick, then don't come crawling back when the good times are rolling.. that is cheap and shallow.. it ticks me off when any fans do that, pro, college, rivalry team, or my OWN team..

[MadMax]

from the Texans standpoint, I think they want to attract fans by having a winning franchise and not fans who will be gone when certain players are gone (although any fan support i am sure is a bonus at this point)

if the Texans believe Bush will make them a winning team, moreso than any other player, then thats what they have to worry about

in the end, more fans are going to support the team because its a winner, than will just becuase of one player

hakeem olajuwon made rockets fans out of people who didn't give a damn about the rockets. part of that was that he was a local basketball product. a big part of that for some.

earl campbell gave that franchise an identity. he made oilers fans out of people who previously didn't give a damn about pro football.

the texans are a faceless team with zero identity past their own futility. i'm saying VY has the potential to be that kind of special talent...on and off the field. i think i'd choose that above a running back, however special we might think he is. and i know i'd choose that over david carr.

[DonnyMost]

i said all things being equal.

again..the assumption i keep hearing from those who are so strongly in your camp is that Reggie Bush equals wins.

i'm saying VY has the potential to win as much as RB does. and i'm saying there are other factors which push him over the top in my view.

i wouldn't let david carr keep me from getting at either player, frankly.

I totally agree.

I'm not going to pretend to be an NFL expert and say I know which player will have more success, or which can help the Texans most. Quite frankly, no one here knows that.

However, I seriously seriously doubt the Texans, as a business, are going to make their decision with any of the "hometown" stuff in mind. If they pick Vince Young it will be because he is the best player for their team, and it will have nothing to do with the fact he grew close by.

[Chance]

They will do what is best for the team in terms of winning, because despite what Chance thinks, winning with some dude from China makes people just as happy as winning with some dude from Sugarland.

But that dude from china has done something more special than winning. He has activated the Asian population of this city. And Vince could do something more special than winning. He could activate a bunch of demos in the city.

[codell]

hakeem olajuwon made rockets fans out of people who didn't give a damn about the rockets. part of that was that he was a local basketball product. a big part of that for some.

Judging by attendance #s and local voices, people still didn't give a damn about the Rockets until they won two titles.

earl campbell gave that franchise an identity. he made oilers fans out of people who previously didn't give a damn about pro football.

See above. Campbell's arrival happened to coincide with the team's winning ways. If someone else besides Cambell was at RB, and then team still acheived success, the town would have still been gaga over the Oilers.

the texans are a faceless team with zero identity past their own futility. i'm saying VY has the potential to be that kind of special talent...on and off the field. i think i'd choose that above a running back, however special we might think he is. and i know i'd choose that over david carr.

Well first, for me, the team has an identity. They are Houston's football team and thats why I personally, support and root for them.

If the Texans become a playoff caliber team, start winning, and Carr, Bush or whoever steps into the role of perenial stud, they will get support from the fans. This town has never failed to support a winner, regardless of who the players are.

Do you really think that if the Texans end up a winner w/o VY, that every single VY fan who is holding his/her support hostage, won't become a Texans fan (assuming they were one in the first place)?

[mateo]

This thread might as well be merged into the other one at this point. Its the same old shait.

The draft couldn't come soon enough, imho.

[Groogrux]

Those of you saying the only reason many want VY is because of his UT ties and they wouldn't want him if he went to FSU, do you believe that the same people would not have wanted Vick if he was coming out this year? I mean, he didn't go to UT.

I guarantee you if it was Michael Vick in the draft instead of Vince Young, many of these people wanting Young would want Vick for the same reasons.

[codell]

Those of you saying the only reason many want VY is because of his UT ties and they wouldn't want him if he went to FSU, do you believe that the same people would not have wanted Vick if he was coming out this year? I mean, he didn't go to UT.

I guarantee you if it was Michael Vick in the draft instead of Vince Young, many of these people wanting Young would want Vick for the same reasons.

But I doubt they would be holding their loyalty hostage.

[The Real Shady]

Those of you saying the only reason many want VY is because of his UT ties and they wouldn't want him if he went to FSU, do you believe that the same people would not have wanted Vick if he was coming out this year? I mean, he didn't go to UT.

I guarantee you if it was Michael Vick in the draft instead of Vince Young, many of these people wanting Young would want Vick for the same reasons.

I honestly don't think so. Sure, some people would want to get the QB, but there would not be nearly as many pissed off people as there are now.

[DonnyMost]

Those of you saying the only reason many want VY is because of his UT ties and they wouldn't want him if he went to FSU, do you believe that the same people would not have wanted Vick if he was coming out this year? I mean, he didn't go to UT.

I guarantee you if it was Michael Vick in the draft instead of Vince Young, many of these people wanting Young would want Vick for the same reasons.

Little hard to make that comparison... different draft, different players, different games..

And I don't think many people would want Vick, unless he went to UT and won the national championship..

[Groogrux]

But I doubt they would be holding their loyalty hostage.

Maybe not, but that's not what people are saying. I hear the argument everyday that the only reason people want VY is because he went to UT. Maybe that's why their so passionate about that, but that's not the main reason they want to draft him. It's only human nature to feel that way when a player of that caliber is from your hometown and played for your favorite college team.

But again, look at how many people were pissed off at the Rockets not taking Lewis. People are still bitching nearly eight years later. Would they be bitching if he went to Oak Hill Academy? Probably not. However, the main reason we all wanted Lewis is because we all thought he was going to be a great player, which he has proven.

[Groogrux]

Little hard to make that comparison... different draft, different players, different games..

And I don't think many people would want Vick, unless he went to UT and won the national championship..

Yeah, you're right. No one would have wanted Vick, a player that was one of the most highly touted incoming rookies in recent memory, because he didn't go to UT. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why I decided to start posting about this again.

[Buck Turgidson]

This thread might as well be merged into the other one at this point. Its the same old shait.

The draft couldn't come soon enough, imho.
No kidding, hence my feeble (and failed) attempts to derail.

[Groogrux]

No kidding, hence my feeble (and failed) attempts to derail.

What're you up to tonight? I'm being kicked out of the house, so let's drink.

[codell]

But again, look at how many people were pissed off at the Rockets not taking Lewis. People are still bitching nearly eight years later. Would they be bitching if he went to Oak Hill Academy? Probably not. However, the main reason we all wanted Lewis is because we all thought he was going to be a great player, which he has proven.

But the people that are bitching have been supporting the team the whole team, which is precisely my point. I don't think the Rockets lost any of their legit fan base to the Sonics.

I don't think anyone is saying no one has a right to their opinion about who the Texans should draft or even to be pissed off if they don't draft who they want. The problem comes when those same people also say they will no longer support the Texans if they don't.

[DonnyMost]

Yeah, you're right. No one would have wanted Vick, a player that was one of the most highly touted incoming rookies in recent memory, because he didn't go to UT. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why I decided to start posting about this again.

The comparison you're trying to draw is riddled with complexities..

You didn't really define the scenario, so I just had to assume Vick's performance via 1999 vs. Reggie Bush circa 2005

Then you subtract the UT fans, and the "homegrown" appeal.. and well, I can't say Vick wins that fight.

But hey, maybe you had something different in mind.

[SWTsig]

this thread is getting ridunkulous.

[Groogrux]

The comparison you're trying to draw is riddled with complexities..

You didn't really define the scenario, so I just had to assume Vick's performance via 1999 vs. Reggie Bush circa 2005

Then you subtract the UT fans, and the "homegrown" appeal.. and well, I can't say Vick wins that fight.

But hey, maybe you had something different in mind.

That was exactly my scenario. I think you're forgetting how highly touted Vick was coming out of college.

[Groogrux]

But the people that are bitching have been supporting the team the whole team, which is precisely my point. I don't think the Rockets lost any of their legit fan base to the Sonics.

I don't think anyone is saying no one has a right to their opinion about who the Texans should draft or even to be pissed off if they don't draft who they want. The problem comes when those same people also say they will no longer support the Texans if they don't.

So, you haven't heard anyone say the only reason VY supporters want to draft him is because he's from UT?

[codell]

So, you haven't heard anyone say the only reason VY supporters want to draft him is because he's from UT?

No, but it is clearly one of the reasons, and if you don't think it is, well, we'll just agree to disagree.

[VesceySux]

I think its about either drafting VY and giving up on Carr or giving Carr a chance to excel under a new coaching staff without the pressure of a #1 overall pick stud quarterback behind you.

I disagree. If he stays, I think Carr needs a kick in the ass. He's been comfortable for too long, smug in the opinion that he's irreplaceable as a former #1 pick. If we don't take Young and stick with Carr, it's time to bring in another QB (via free agency) that'll legitimately push Carr. (Tony B and Ragu Sauce are not the answer.) Big Dave could use the competition.

[DonnyMost]

That was exactly my scenario. I think you're forgetting how highly touted Vick was coming out of college.

Maybe I am. I also might be letting a little bit of current hindsight seep into my projection.

But, I see a heisman trophy and "two" national championships ;) vs. "Well, Vick sure does run fast"

In 1999 I think everyone was a little overboard on the new concept of the running QB.. so it was a perfect time for Vick to ignite a hype frenzy.. in 2005, we seem to know a lot more about the strengths and weaknesses of a scrambling QB.. it's just a different time, with different players, and different games.. really hard to make that comparison work.

[mateo]

No kidding, hence my feeble (and failed) attempts to derail.

I saw a pretty cool movie the other night about a midget who lived in a train station.

[DonnyMost]

I disagree. If he stays, I think Carr needs a kick in the ass. He's been comfortable for too long, smug in the opinion that he's irreplaceable as a former #1 pick. If we don't take Young and stick with Carr, it's time to bring in another QB (via free agency) that'll legitimately push Carr. (Tony B and Ragu Sauce are not the answer.) Big Dave could use the competition.

Excellent point.

I called into 790 this summer saying that exact same thing should have happened in the 2005 offseason and Palilo LAUGHED at me..

I think Drew Brees is a perfect example.. he was basically San Diego's only option.. a young, somewhat highly paid, high draft pick.. he was comfortable in his spot.. then Rivers came along and he got his ass in gear..

[Buck Turgidson]

I saw a pretty cool movie the other night about a midget who lived in a train station.
Wasn't there a recent documentary about the people (not CHUDs) who live in the subway tunnels of NYC?

Rented "The Barbarian Invasions" last week. Best movie I've seen in awhile.

[JumpMan]

In 1999 I think everyone was a little overboard on the new concept of the running QB.. so it was a perfect time for Vick to ignite a hype frenzy.. in 2005, we seem to know a lot more about the strengths and weaknesses of a scrambling QB.. it's just a different time, with different players, and different games.. really hard to make that comparison work.

Vick is the only running QB in the NFL, you can't say Vince won't make it, because Vick struggles, and they're not at all the same player. Vick was a great great great college QB, but he was a short 6' injury prone player in college, Vince is 6'5" beast who had a better college career, and was never hurt in college. They both come out this season and Vince Young is the better pro prospect based on the huge advantage he has in size and durability, even though they both would have questions in the passing game.

[mateo]

Wasn't there a recent documentary about the people (not CHUDs) who live in the subway tunnels of NYC?


Its called Dark Days.
I think I rode with a CHUD on the 2 Train this morning. Well, he smelled like one.

[swilkins]

Actually,

http://64.202.163.199/chancekear/vy.jpg

I'm just yanking your chain. The fact that you took the time to process the count, convinces me that it was well worth my time. :)

[gucci888]

This reminds me of when the Bengals took Carson Palmer even though they had Kitna because they though Palmer was too good to pass up. We both have/had a star WR and a pretty good RB. There are definitely some different circumstances, but there's a chance Kubiak could analyze all what Young and Bush have to offer and maybe say Young's too good to pass up.

[wouldabeen23]

Chance, you essay inspired me, ridiculous as it sounds...I am a homer through and through--call me Milo Wouldabeen Hamilton. With that in mind, I have been a flippity flip-flopper in the RB/VY debate.

After your impassioned call to arms, I'm sold--I want VY for all the right and wrong reasons, if that makes sense.

[Chance]

Chance, you essay inspired me, ridiculous as it sounds...I am a homer through and through--call me Milo Wouldabeen Hamilton. With that in mind, I have been a flippity flip-flopper in the RB/VY debate.

After your impassioned call to arms, I'm sold--I want VY for all the right and wrong reasons, if that makes sense.

Well FWIW I didn't write it to recruit new VY guys. I wanted to explain my position. I actually soul searched last night with a self-inquiry as to why I want Vince here. I mean my goodness it's just a game, right? but as I delved I started finding some residual Oilers anger and some authentic desire for that wrong to be righted, at least for me.

[intermill]

PICK VINCE DOT COM

On 1310 The Ticket here in Dallas they just played your Vince song and plugged pickvince.com.

[pgabriel]

reading Chance's posts followed by his signature is hilarious.

[Chance]

On 1310 The Ticket here in Dallas they just played your Vince song and plugged pickvince.com.

Sturm is tha bomb.

[msn]

I started finding some residual Oilers anger and some authentic desire for that wrong to be righted, at least for me.
I don't see how a local draft choice for one franchise can right a wrong that was committed by another franchise. Is healing the Bud Adams-inflicted wounds possibly somewhat of an unfair burden with which to saddle Bob McNair?

I want him to run the franchise as if it was the only act in town--ever. Just make good football decisions. Just build a winner, and then just win.

[pgabriel]

I love this "trust the team to make good football decisions" argument, seeing as how their "football" decisions have worked out so well so far. even more reason for me to criticize.

Bob McNair should go "Opposite Bob"


"If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right."

[msn]

I love this "trust the team to make good football decisions" argument, seeing as how their "football" decisions have worked out so well so far. even more reason for me to criticize.
I do hope you understand I'm not arguing for Bush or against VY. I'm still hopelessly undecided. I want them to make whatever pick they make for good football reasons. And with different minds in the mix in Kubiak and Reeves, perhaps that is more possible than ever.

As far as what they've done so far, I'm right with you. Last offseason, for example, was atrocious. After they spent all spring and summer dismantling what was a decently effective defense and ignoring the o-line completely, I predicted a pretty crappy run in 2006. I had no idea it was going to be this bad.

[Chance]

I don't see how a local draft choice for one franchise can right a wrong that was committed by another franchise. Is healing the Bud Adams-inflicted wounds possibly somewhat of an unfair burden with which to saddle Bob McNair?

I want him to run the franchise as if it was the only act in town--ever. Just make good football decisions. Just build a winner, and then just win.

The Texans are no different than any other franchise. So far.

[reggietodd]

I love this "trust the team to make good football decisions" argument, seeing as how their "football" decisions have worked out so well so far. even more reason for me to criticize.

Trust Kubiak. Not Capers. Nice try.

[reggietodd]

The Texans are no different than any other franchise. So far.

Chance. Might as well save some time and money and take down your website, because it isn't happening.

Seeing VY in a Texans uniform at this point would be the equilavent of seeing unicorn, roaming free in the wild.

[pgabriel]

Trust Kubiak. Not Capers. Nice try.

trust casserly, nice try. :rolleyes:

[msn]

The Texans are no different than any other franchise. So far.
What do you mean? That VY would make them different? I'm not being argumentative at this point, I just didn't connect the dots as to what you're talking about.

[msn]

trust casserly, nice try.
I've heard that Capers had strong input into personnel decisions. But, I have no reference and I may be off-base. At any rate, as bad as they've been I feel pretty confident that neither of the two of us would have done any better. (No offense intended.)

[pgabriel]

I've heard that Capers had strong input into personnel decisions. But, I have no reference and I may be off-base. At any rate, as bad as they've been I feel pretty confident that neither of the two of us would have done any better. (No offense intended.)


I know, but I just have a feeling they are not gonna really evaluate this as they should. and that's not saying they should take Young, just that they should really see this as an opportunity to right some wrongs, instead of just looking at last season as a bump in the road.

[msn]

...just that they should really see this as an opportunity to right some wrongs, instead of just looking at last season as a bump in the road.
What are the wrongs as you perceive them?

[Fatty FatBastard]

You know... This thread has made me think... a lot.

I really haven't invested much into this team. Even though I'm a Houstonian, these guys have only been Houstonians for 4 years.

I've had my son for seven years, and he's just starting to grow on me. At 4, I could have taken or left him.

4 years isn't a long enough investment in anything.

So with that said, if the Texans don't draft Dwayne Slay in the second round, I'm done with this team. It will easily show that Texan's management has their head up their butts. I'll follow Slay wherever he plays because he is that good.

Thanks for opening my eyes, fellas.

[RocketFan007]

You know... This thread has made me think... a lot.

I really haven't invested much into this team. Even though I'm a Houstonian, these guys have only been Houstonians for 4 years.

I've had my son for seven years, and he's just starting to grow on me. At 4, I could have taken or left him.

4 years isn't a long enough investment in anything.

So with that said, if the Texans don't draft Dwayne Slay in the second round, I'm done with this team. It will easily show that Texan's management has their head up their butts. I'll follow Slay wherever he plays because he is that good.

Thanks for opening my eyes, fellas.

Classic.

[swilkins]

I've had my son for seven years, and he's just starting to grow on me. At 4, I could have taken or left him.

4 years isn't a long enough investment in anything.

I lost it on this.

[pgabriel]

see that's the problem I have, fatty may have gone over the top with comparing the team to his son, but the sentiment is lost. this "I have to love the texans because they are houston's franchise" mentality. no I don't.

[Groogrux]

I hope when I have kids, I don't compare them to sports franchises.

[Chance]

What do you mean? That VY would make them different? I'm not being argumentative at this point, I just didn't connect the dots as to what you're talking about.

Vy would make them different. At least for a while. It would show that the Houston part of their name is important. And that selection is what would transform me into a lifelong Texans fan. i have had "that" moment with the Astros (being a kid and meeting the players and staff), with the Rocket (Dream going from UH to The rockets), and UT (failing out of UT). I would love to have that connection with The Texans.

On a side note, FFB that was funny as hell.

[Dubious]

Chance. Might as well save some time and money and take down your website, because it isn't happening.Seeing VY in a Texans uniform at this point would be the equilavent of seeing unicorn, roaming free in the wild.

Like you know something, you don't know squat.

You wanna debate why the Texans should take Bush...Come on.
But to act all smug and superior is just posturing.

What are other teams offering behind the scenes for Carr? Are you tapping Charlie's phone?

What trade down scenario's are being discussed between coaches and general managers around the league. Do you know? I don't even believe the final offers will come for another 90 days.

Vince-o-manics have a burning passion to see one of those "too good to Be true" sports stories come to fruition. We may be blind to the disappointing truth at this point , but why would you want to stomp on a dream?

Maybe you are one of those guys that denies your own emotions because you can't deal with the pain of disappointment. Deep down you know you really want Vince too ....real bad.

Preach it Chance! Lead the movement! We will support Vince in numbers that cannot be denied!
( this will be the draft party to end all draft parties')

[DonnyMost]

You know... This thread has made me think... a lot.

I really haven't invested much into this team. Even though I'm a Houstonian, these guys have only been Houstonians for 4 years.

I've had my son for seven years, and he's just starting to grow on me. At 4, I could have taken or left him.

4 years isn't a long enough investment in anything.

So with that said, if the Texans don't draft Dwayne Slay in the second round, I'm done with this team. It will easily show that Texan's management has their head up their butts. I'll follow Slay wherever he plays because he is that good.

Thanks for opening my eyes, fellas.

A rare home run post for the sultan of the milkshake, the king of the kabob, the colossus of crispy nuggets.. the fatty fat bastard. :cool:

[Cohen]

...

I've had my son for seven years, and he's just starting to grow on me. At 4, I could have taken or left him.

....


:confused:

I hope for you and your son that's tongue-in-cheek.

[gunn]

Wouldn't it be great to see the Vince Young led ("led" being the operative word) Texans march into Texas Stadium next season and stomp the Cowboys.

[Fatty FatBastard]

I hope when I have kids, I don't compare them to sports franchises.

I hope when you have kids, you don't have to go through Hell and back to keep them in your lives.

Honestly, you don't remember any of my battles with my ex?

Seriously, man. Learn the levity of a situation.

[SamFisher]

see that's the problem I have, fatty may have gone over the top with comparing the team to his son, but the sentiment is lost. this "I have to love the texans because they are houston's franchise" mentality. no I don't.

My favorite comeback is "if you stop rooting for the texans, then you're not a fan"

Of course you're not a fan. That's why you stopped rooting for them. Duhh.

I mean, I guess the "true fans" of the glorious texans past can stick with it and condemn the rest.. but so what? I wasn't a fan 5 years ago. Neither were they. Franchises are created, transferred, die out - so do sports fans' loyalties.

[Groogrux]

I hope when you have kids, you don't have to go through Hell and back to keep them in your lives.

Honestly, you don't remember any of my battles with my ex?

Seriously, man.

Of course I do and it really sucked that you had to go through that. I've voiced that many times.

It sounded like your post was comparing your attachment to your child to your attachment to the Texans. I apologize if I misread that.

[IROC it]

This page right here (http://www.houstontexans.com/) should clue everyone in as to who the Texans are drafting. His picture is third on the flash part, the main section, of the page. And it has been for weeks. ;)

[msn]

this "I have to love the texans because they are houston's franchise" mentality. no I don't.
I agree--you don't. And, anyone who talks down to someone or whips out the "true fan" nonsense because of it is being just silly. I hope you didn't construe my earlier comments as talking that way--I was just sharing how I feel as opposed to how Max, you, and others feel.

[msn]

:confused:

I hope for you and your son that's tongue-in-cheek.
Maybe the sarcasm was over-the-top for the more sensitive among us? Did you know that was tongue-in-cheek and just wanted to take an opportunity to be smug?

[VesceySux]

Seeing VY in a Texans uniform at this point would be the equilavent of seeing unicorn, roaming free in the wild.

The talking heads on Cold Pizza today said they think Young will go to the Texans. Now, I don't much trust them (or any ESPN blabbermouth), but I certainly trust them more than I do you.

I don't see how a local draft choice for one franchise can right a wrong that was committed by another franchise. Is healing the Bud Adams-inflicted wounds possibly somewhat of an unfair burden with which to saddle Bob McNair?

If McNair wants to make Texans fans of us all, he must heal the wounds of the past, even those that were not of his doing. As a quick BBS analogy, say you wanna get with the BBS's own Isabel. In order to win her heart, you have no choice but to heal her previous wounds and prove you're NOT like Ferdinand before she'll open herself to you (um, emotionally). Isabel = wounded fans. Ferdinand = Oilers (Bud). McNair = new boyfriend. It's really quite simple. :)

[SWTsig]

:confused:

I hope for you and your son that's tongue-in-cheek.

sarcasm.... look into it.

[reggietodd]

The talking heads on Cold Pizza today said they think Young will go to the Texans. Now, I don't much trust them (or any ESPN blabbermouth), but I certainly trust them more than I do you.

I'm not claiming to know anything more that you. I don't have any inside information. However, I did listen to the entire interview with Kubiak & Mcnair Thursday.

Maybe I have a gift to read between the lines, but I don't think it could have been any more clear.

Also just heard that Young decided to go to the Combine today.

[gucci888]

I'm not claiming to know anything more that you. I don't have any inside information. However, I did listen to the entire interview with Kubiak & Mcnair Thursday.

Maybe I have a gift to read between the lines, but I don't think it could have been any more clear.

Also just heard that Young decided to go to the Combine today.

Because they praised Carr? It's much easier to read things when you interpret it to go your way. Some of us have already said this and Mclain said it on 610: "What do you want him (Kubiak) to say?" "Well, uuhhh, Carr is a nice guy...but."

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but it seems like you are reading too much into what should be taken with a grain of salt. They aren't going to say anything bad about Carr during Kubiak's first day on the job, they probably won't say anything bad about Carr ever since there is really no point in doing so.

As Kubiak said in another interview, he and the scouting crew are going to evaluate everything. He has only watched Bush/VY as fans and has probably not even gotten the chance to watch the film on them. If you really think they've made the choice w/o even watching the film, you are either crazy or they are extremely stupid. As I posted earlier, Kubiak made a point to say the Carr and Draft decision are 2 entirely seperate things, what does that say in between the lines?

Where was your gift when you predicted Bush would run for 200+ yards and VY would throw 3 interceptions in the Rose Bowl?

[reggietodd]

Because they praised Carr? It's much easier to read things when you interpret it to go your way. Some of us have already said this and Mclain said it on 610: "What do you want him (Kubiak) to say?" "Well, uuhhh, Carr is a nice guy...but."

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but it seems like you are reading too much into what should be taken with a grain of salt. They aren't going to say anything bad about Carr during Kubiak's first day on the job, they probably won't say anything bad about Carr ever since there is really no point in doing so.

As Kubiak said in another interview, he and the scouting crew are going to evaluate everything. He has only watched Bush/VY as fans and has probably not even gotten the chance to watch the film on them. If you really think they've made the choice w/o even watching the film, you are either crazy or they are extremely stupid. As I posted earlier, Kubiak made a point to say the Carr and Draft decision are 2 entirely seperate things, what does that say in between the lines?

Where was your gift when you predicted Bush would run for 200+ yards and VY would throw 3 interceptions in the Rose Bowl?

Do you really think all they did was praise Carr? Do you think i'm the only one who read into that way? Why do you think Chance made the post he made after the interview? If you listened to that interview and still think that the Texans are going to drat a quarterback, then I don't know what to tell you. Seriously.

The "gift" comment was sarcasm, it doesn't take a gift to hear something so clearly. I was wrong about the Rose Bowl (I was also just trying to get under the skin of some fellow hornfans w/that prediction). But haven't been wrong on anything else. Plus, this isn't a prediciton, its a clear as day fact after listening to those guys during the interview. Do you realize that VY decided to go to the combine today? I doubt Bush goes. To me, that speaks volumes.

If you want to keep calling me out, and trolling behind and all my posts, put your money where your mouth is. I'll bet you $500 the Texans don't draft Vince Young, we can let a neutral clutch bbs member hold the money. If you don't take the bet, then all I ask is for you to quit trolling.

When the NBA season started this year, I predicted the Lakers would make the playoffs and Kobe would win MVP. So far so good. :D

[Deckard]

..............
When the NBA season started this year, I predicted the Lakers would make the playoffs and Kobe would win MVP. So far so good. :D
Bloody hell... what in god's name is good about that??

[SamFisher]

Do you realize that VY decided to go to the combine today? I doubt Bush goes. To me, that speaks volumes.



....to get measured & weighed, & perhaps to participate in passing drills.

The fact that you omitted that speaks volumes.

I guess Regge B isn't getting measured and weighed because coming in at 5-10 185 isn't too good for a purported NFL running back.

[gr8-1]

....to get measured & weighed, & perhaps to participate in passing drills.

The fact that you omitted that speaks volumes.

I guess Regge B isn't getting measured and weighed because coming in at 5-10 185 isn't too good for a purported NFL running back.


Oh, Reggie will get measured. He'll just refuse to take off his shoes.