Thoughts on the Bagwell dilemma

[NJRocket]

If this needs to be merged with other Bags threads go ahead...

I read Justices article this morning ( http://houstonchronicle.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3603626.html ) and it got me thinking. Here I am hoping the same guy that I beg to open his checkbook is the guy I am hoping lives by his alleged cheap ways now.

I love Bags....but I do think the signs are there as to what McLane is going to push for..and that is Baggy's retirement.

Question - they (media and Mclane) keep referring to the fact that if Bags were on an AL team, this wouldn't be an issue becasue he could DH. Call me crazy, but, I don't see an insurance company saying "well, yes, we will pay you...we would hate you to have to pay a pinch hitter all that money".....so, if he can pinch hit, are we stuck with the contract?

[Nick]

If Bags steps anywhere NEAR a baseball field, whether it is to pinch-hit, play first-base, or even be a bat-boy... the insurance company will pay nothing.

As it is, it is damn complicated to get an insurance company to pick up a contract this big, even if you can ultimately prove that he'll be out forever. I remember the dillema with Albert Belle, and it was even more obvious that he couldn't play... the insurance company was trying to do everything in their power not to have to pay him.

In th end, I'm kinda ambivalent to the whole situation... if Bags does come back, at least we get to see him in glimpses again (like we did last year), and at the worst, his contract comes off the books next year anyways. If he retires, Drayton will suddenly have a ton more of expendable income that could go a long way to a mid-season trade, or resigning Pettite to an extension, and being a player in next off-season's FA market.

I just hope this doesn't become a distraction for the team... we all know what they can do without Bagwell, and frankly, the team is sorta built to have Lance/Lamb at 1st, and Wilson/Taveras/Lane in the OF.

[DaDakota]

If he can not throw a baseball nearly 8 months after his surgery....he won't be able to 10 months after his surgery.

I don't feel sorry for Jeff one bit.....he still gets his money....

I am an Astros fan and a Jeff Bagwell fan, but I wanted Dream gone that last year as well......

Sometimes, tough business deicisions have to be made.

Thank you Jeff for all the wonderful years.....Good luck in the American League...

DD

[NJRocket]

If Bags steps anywhere NEAR a baseball field, whether it is to pinch-hit, the insurance company will pay nothing.

.

what I am saying is....the insurance company already knows he can hit....he did so in the playoffs/WS....so does he even have to step foot on the field to prove he can play. To me, the insurance co can say "hey guys, regardless of whether he can throw to 3rd or not, he can hit....he hit the ball last season after the surgery...you are not getting a dime"

[NJRocket]

Thank you Jeff for all the wonderful years.....Good luck in the American League...

DD

I wonder if we could get a couple of long shot prospects or perhaps a back of the rotation type guy for him from a young AL team looking for a part time DH and a clubhouse leader, so to speak

[xiki]

I am replying within your Post:


If he can not throw a baseball nearly 8 months after his surgery....he won't be able to 10 months after his surgery. SAD, BUT TRUE. TOO TRUE.

I don't feel sorry for Jeff one bit.....he still gets his money.... I DO FEEL FOR HIM AS IT ISN'T ONLY ABOUT THE $$$, WHICH, AS YOU SAY, HE STILL GETS.

I am an Astros fan and a Jeff Bagwell fan, but I wanted Dream gone that last year as well......ME, TOO AND ME, TOO.

Sometimes, tough business deicisions have to be made. YUP, AND THIS IS ONE. AND A RARE ONE IN WHICH I SUPPORT MANAGEMENT OVER A (GOOD GUY) PLAYER.

Thank you Jeff for all the wonderful years.....YES Good luck in the American League...NO

DD

[Major]

If he can not throw a baseball nearly 8 months after his surgery....he won't be able to 10 months after his surgery.


Why not?

[DaDakota]

Why not?

Major......he is lifting weights, can swing a bat, etc...etc...etc.....the shoulder has got to be close to as healed as it is going to get......

Do you honestly think that he will get strong enough to throw it 90 feet?

If he can't do that already?

DD

[SA Rocket]

If he can not throw a baseball nearly 8 months after his surgery....he won't be able to 10 months after his surgery.

I don't feel sorry for Jeff one bit.....he still gets his money....

I am an Astros fan and a Jeff Bagwell fan, but I wanted Dream gone that last year as well......

Sometimes, tough business deicisions have to be made.

Thank you Jeff for all the wonderful years.....Good luck in the American League...

DD
Well said.

The only good thing about this going public is the relief I feel that Drayton apparently will not let possible public backlash get in the way of doing what's best for the team once Baggie's contract expires. As you mentioned above, local icons Dream and Bags both got to a point where they couldn't see that they were done and it puts the franchise in a very bad and compromising position.

Thanks for letting us know you're ready and willing to move on after this season Drayton! :)

[NewRoxFan]

Why not?

Because if he could throw... he would do it front of the media and settle the issue. I think the 'stros have gone the extra yard in making Bags feel whole, but its well past time for Bagwell to hang 'em up...

[Major]

Because if he could throw... he would do it front of the media and settle the issue. I think the 'stros have gone the extra yard in making Bags feel whole, but its well past time for Bagwell to hang 'em up...

Except no one argues he can't throw now.

The question is whether he'll be able to throw down the road. I don't know enough about the surgery, its timetable, what his rehab structure is like, whether he's met set goals, or anything else to determine whether he'll be able to throw a few months from now.

The fact that he can bat and lift weights is irrelevent; he could do that pre-surgery too. The surgery wasn't designed to fix that. Carson Palmer won't be able to run around properly in 4 months either; but that doesn't mean he won't be able to in 6 months.

Bagwell has the right to determine his own schedule; if he thinks he has a chance to be back, he doesn't owe the organization anything in regards to retiring so they can cash in on an insurance policy. Nor does the organization owe anything to Bagwell - this is just how the business works. Everyone is expected to do what's in their own best interests.

[wrath_of_khan]

Major......he is lifting weights, can swing a bat, etc...etc...etc.....the shoulder has got to be close to as healed as it is going to get......

Do you honestly think that he will get strong enough to throw it 90 feet?

If he can't do that already?

DD

I don't know about rehabbing shoulder surgeries per se, but I do have some firsthand experience with rehab of ACL and achilles surgery.

It's very possible that it doesn't have to do with arm strength, but the throwing motion. In other words, they might not allow him to throw until certain benchmarks are reached (i.e. range of motion in the shoulder).

For example, after both the ACL surgeries and the achilles, I was not allowed to jump for many many months after the surgery. When they finally allowed me to jump, it wasn't like all I could do was take small hops -- I had plenty of strength in the legs to do jumping drills that included reps of 3 sets worth of 60 seconds of different types of jumping.

My legs were perfectly strong, but I was not allowed to jump yet because certain non-strength related benchmarks had not yet been reached. Rehabbing after surgery involves more than simply building up strength; it involves breaking down scar tissue and other things.

Oh, and after being allowed to jump, it was not very long before I was allowed to practice cutting and then given the green light to play again. And I'm not a professional athlete. IMHO, it's not unreasonable that he's not allowed to throw 8 months after surgery and that he could ramp it up in 8 weeks. Not unreasonable at all.

I'm still skeptical, but all this talk of, "If he can't throw by now he never can" simply doesn't fit with what (admittedly little) I know about major rehab. In other words, just because he can bat and lift weights does not mean the shoulder "is as close to healed as it's going to get." It doesn't work that way.

[JunkyardDwg]

Major......he is lifting weights, can swing a bat, etc...etc...etc.....the shoulder has got to be close to as healed as it is going to get......

Do you honestly think that he will get strong enough to throw it 90 feet?

If he can't do that already?

DD


Swinging a bat uses a different motion than throwing the ball. Remember he could still bat long after his shoulder was blown and he came back to pinch hit this season well before he knew anything about his throwing ability. I wanna see what he looks like in Spring Training before any decisions are made.

[Hakeem06]

DD i understand what you saying about bagwell, but it would be extremely weird to see him in another jersey that didn't astros across the front of it.

i hated that hakeem left and played for toronto his last season. i believe some players are too special to an organization and city to EVER leave. hakeem was one of them and bagwell is as well.

if bagwell wants to play, i wouldn't stop him. how many times has he restructured his contract over the years to help the team get better? how many years did he play hurt to help the team? i think the astros OWE it to jeff if he wants to give it one last shot. i hate seeing great guys like jeff bagwell getting pushed out the door to just save some money. he's earned every penny over his hall of fame career, and for just one year out of all of the great ones he's given us, we're pushing him out? give me a break. drayton just needs to pay the man if he wants to play. he's become one of the faces of the astros oganization, and it's only right let the man finish his career in houston.

[bobrek]

what I am saying is....the insurance company already knows he can hit....he did so in the playoffs/WS....so does he even have to step foot on the field to prove he can play. To me, the insurance co can say "hey guys, regardless of whether he can throw to 3rd or not, he can hit....he hit the ball last season after the surgery...you are not getting a dime"

As I understand things, if he cannot do his complete job then the insurance company has to pay up. The Astros essentially hired him and pay him to play first base. If he cannot perform that function, then insurance should cover it.

[DaDakota]

Except no one argues he can't throw now.

The question is whether he'll be able to throw down the road. I don't know enough about the surgery, its timetable, what his rehab structure is like, whether he's met set goals, or anything else to determine whether he'll be able to throw a few months from now.

The fact that he can bat and lift weights is irrelevent; he could do that pre-surgery too. The surgery wasn't designed to fix that. Carson Palmer won't be able to run around properly in 4 months either; but that doesn't mean he won't be able to in 6 months.

Bagwell has the right to determine his own schedule; if he thinks he has a chance to be back, he doesn't owe the organization anything in regards to retiring so they can cash in on an insurance policy. Nor does the organization owe anything to Bagwell - this is just how the business works. Everyone is expected to do what's in their own best interests.

I completely agree, although I think the experts do know a little bit about it, and I would love to see what they are saying about his shoulder.

DD

[Major]

I completely agree, although I think the experts do know a little bit about it, and I would love to see what they are saying about his shoulder.

DD

I agree - I'm surprised we've heard nothing whatsoever. That is very disappointing!

[apostolic3]

Bagwell needs to go out to pasture. I don't feel one bit sorry for him as he has been way overpaid the last 5 years. He's very lucky his prior expired when A-Rod got his insane contract from the Rangers. Supposedly Bags was underpaid before he got this ridiculous contract. If true, the current contract more than makes up for it.

I don't blame Drayton. There won't be much of a public backlash because most fans agree with him.

No disrespect for Bags, but he needs to give it up. The Astros have been very very good to him, especially these last years when his contract has killed their payroll. Jeff, just take the money and retire. Don't be selfish. Eat your pride and go out like a National League Champion. Then we can move Berkman to 1st base and finally step into the future. You, not Biggio, are the greatest player in Astros history. Thanks for the memories. :)

[bobrek]

It appears the Astros are pursuing an insurance claim:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2302547

[LongTimeFan]

Ortiz was on some FSN show the other night basically saying the Astros have a very slim chance of collecting on this $, for the simple fact that he can swing a bat.

[zoork34]

if the astros screw him over i hope he goes to another team and destroys the astros in some way and then wins a world series. I hate it when crap like this happens. i know its part of the sport and all, but it just makes it seem so much less like a game.

[gucci888]

So if Bagwell checks out okay with the insurance doctor, doesn't that kill any type of relationship w/ the Astros?

It's like Purpura and McLane are routing for him to not recover.

[apostolic3]

So if Bagwell checks out okay with the insurance doctor, doesn't that kill any type of relationship w/ the Astros?

It's like Purpura and McLane are routing for him to not recover.
Exactly, except I agree with them. Berkman needs to play first so we can move on. Whether the claim is denied or not, my guess is the chances of Bags going to Spring Training are slim, unless the insurance claim negotiations demand it. But the whole issue could be cancerous to the team by then. I think the relationship betweeen Bags and the Stros is over.

[Aceshigh7]

God, the Astros are so pathetic. Could they screw up this offseason any more? :mad: Run off the heart and soul of the team, to save 15 mil that will go to the bottom line and not to improve the club, ****ing morons.

[A-Train]

I'm not too worried about anything, because one thing will always remain constant.

Insurance companies are evil.

That's what this is coming down to, an insurance company's decision. An insurance company has to decide whether Jeff Bagwell can play or not. Insurance companies take and take and take, but when it comes down to actually paying out a claim, they'll use every loophole and caveat possible to avoid paying. Trust me, this insurance company will find someway, somehow to avoid paying out.

Bagwell can't throw a baseball? OK Jeff, toss the ball to that guy standing ten feet away from you....Well, he can play...oh, that's right, Mr. McClane, the policy didn't specify how FAR he had to throw the baseball.

McClane will be FORCED to let Jeff play this upcoming season, because he put all his eggs in the insurance company's basket.

[bobrek]

God, the Astros are so pathetic. Could they screw up this offseason any more? :mad: Run off the heart and soul of the team, to save 15 mil that will go to the bottom line and not to improve the club, ****ing morons.

Considering they have been paying the insurance premium on his contract for this type of eventuality, it makes perfect bisiness sense to pursue this.

If they don't start the process prior to the apparent cutoff date and he cannot play then what's the point of insuring contracts and paying the premium? One way or another Bagwell will get paid the remainder of his contract, the only question is whose pocket it will come out of.

The Astros and Bagwell have each showed a remarkable amount of loyalty to each other. The Astros have paid him tremendously well and Bagwell has performed at an incredible level and been the consummate professional on and off the field. Garner even rewarded Bagwell by choosing him to DH in the World Series even though it may have been strategically better to sit him.

The only fault I see in all of this is getting an insurance policy in which a decision must be made before the start of spring training. I suspect this will be a lesson to ALL teams that have these types of policies.

[Poloshirtbandit]

I wonder if we could get a couple of long shot prospects or perhaps a back of the rotation type guy for him from a young AL team looking for a part time DH and a clubhouse leader, so to speak

eh, I don't think any team is gonna pay $15 mil for an average DH.

[Aceshigh7]

Considering they have been paying the insurance premium on his contract for this type of eventuality, it makes perfect bisiness sense to pursue this.

If they don't start the process prior to the apparent cutoff date and he cannot play then what's the point of insuring contracts and paying the premium? One way or another Bagwell will get paid the remainder of his contract, the only question is whose pocket it will come out of.

The Astros and Bagwell have each showed a remarkable amount of loyalty to each other. The Astros have paid him tremendously well and Bagwell has performed at an incredible level and been the consummate professional on and off the field. Garner even rewarded Bagwell by choosing him to DH in the World Series even though it may have been strategically better to sit him.

The only fault I see in all of this is getting an insurance policy in which a decision must be made before the start of spring training. I suspect this will be a lesson to ALL teams that have these types of policies.

The Astros aren't showing any loyalty now. Bags has earned the right to try to come back. Hell, I went to games in 2004 where he couldn't throw across the diamond, watching him in warmups was sad. But he still helped us out with his bat big time.

God, some of you have blinders on when it comes to the Astros. I wish I could screw up my job like they have at every juncture this offseason and still have people defend me like y'all do the Astros. This offseason has been a disaster but you don't hear much about it from the average fan.

[bobrek]

This offseason has been a disaster but you don't hear much about it from the average fan.

While offseason trades and free agency are certainly exciting to discuss, they don't mean a thing if the team performs poorly or if injuries arise (just ask the Rockets). I mainly judge the team by their competitiveness and they have rarely let me down over the past 12 years. I don't judge them by who they acquire in December or January.

I think that many fans would have labelled last offseason a disaster as well. Geez, they lost Beltran and Kent and effectively replaced them with nobody. Berkman was out for at least the first 4-6 weeks of the season and no one could predict how he would play at all. Again, there was no contingency to replace him. The only positive from last season was the re-signing of Clemens. The bottom line was - who cared? The end result is what matters.

I don't get too excited or too disappointed in December, January or February. I don't label the season a success or failure or something in between until September.

[NJRocket]

Ortiz was on some FSN show the other night basically saying the Astros have a very slim chance of collecting on this $, for the simple fact that he can swing a bat.

Thats exactly what I am saying. They already know he can hit...he did it last year. If the Astros are stuck paying 18 million for a pinch hitter, i think the insurance co will tell them that its their (astros) problem

[Aceshigh7]

While offseason trades and free agency are certainly exciting to discuss, they don't mean a thing if the team performs poorly or if injuries arise (just ask the Rockets). I mainly judge the team by their competitiveness and they have rarely let me down over the past 12 years. I don't judge them by who they acquire in December or January.

I think that many fans would have labelled last offseason a disaster as well. Geez, they lost Beltran and Kent and effectively replaced them with nobody. Berkman was out for at least the first 4-6 weeks of the season and no one could predict how he would play at all. Again, there was no contingency to replace him. The only positive from last season was the re-signing of Clemens. The bottom line was - who cared? The end result is what matters.

I don't get too excited or too disappointed in December, January or February. I don't label the season a success or failure or something in between until September.

I didn't label last offseason a disaster at all. We retained all our great pitchers last year, and you see where it got us. Pitching is a hell of alot more important than hitting.

This year the Astros have:

1) Cut loose the greatest pitcher in baseball by denying him the time he needed to choose to retire or to play, so they wouldn't have to risk paying him fair market value. (You will find out how important Clemens was this year when we don't have him)
2) Inexplicably fired a popular and improving broadcaster.
3) Attempted to trade one of the best closers in the game for an offensive shortstop. (Pretty stupid to sacrifice pitching for hitting, expecially when you see what how important pitching has been for this team the last two years)
4) Classlessly tried to shame the greatest player in Astros history into retirement, so that they can add 15 mill to their bottom line.

I'm quite suprised with all these so-called Astros fans that are mindlessly oblivious to how they have botched things this offseason.

[Dubious]

There is $15 million bucks up grabs. The lawyers will get their share, they always do.

I wouldn't be surprised if something works out like the insurance company makes a partial settlement that the Astros use to pay down Jeff's salary and buyout and Jeff goes to an AL team of his choice to rage against father time.

Nobody loses everything, everybody loses something.

[Groogrux]

1) Cut loose the greatest pitcher in baseball by denying him the time he needed to choose to retire or to play, so they wouldn't have to risk paying him fair market value. (You will find out how important Clemens was this year when we don't have him)

I do believe you may be the only one who thinks this was the wrong move. Even Clemens said he understood the move considering he said himself it would be until late-January/early-February before making a decision. Also, there's no guarantee that Clemens won't be back with the Astros and if he does comeback, not pitching the first month or so will hopefully make it less likely that he doesn't breakdown in September for the third year in a row.

2) Inexplicably fired a popular and improving broadcaster.

Imagine me giving the biggest yawn ever. Talk about much whining about nothing. He was a mediocre play-by-play guy at best and he admittedly forced the Astros hand.

3) Attempted to trade one of the best closers in the game for an offensive shortstop. (Pretty stupid to sacrifice pitching for hitting, expecially when you see what how important pitching has been for this team the last two years)

It's not stupid to sacrifice pitching for hitting when you have two other relievers who could fill that role. Not to mention Tejada's one of the best players in the game at a position where offensive talent is scarce. You have to trade talent to get talent in many cases. Had we made that rumored deal, we would be the favorites in the Central.

4) Classlessly tried to shame the greatest player in Astros history into retirement, so that they can add 15 mill to their bottom line.

The only person who has said this is Dick Justice. The Astros and Bagwell's agent have both said the Astros have not tried to shame Bagwell into retirement.

[msn]

I'm quite suprised with all these so-called Astros fans that are mindlessly oblivious to how they have botched things this offseason.
Perhas you're just wrong? Or perhaps there's more than one possible scenario? Oh, wait--you've been privy to everything that's gone on behind the scenes so you know, right?

I'm looking forward to your next four-point list and obligatory insult here in the next couple of days in which you say the same damn thing yet again.

so-called, mindlessly oblivious, yadah, yadah, yadah.

You just can't handle being disagreed with, can you? And your points have been addressed over and over quite reasonably and all you've done is sidestep the relevant counterpoints and repeat the same drivel. Now, that's mindless. Or, at the very least, poor argumentation.

You're wrong. :D

[Aceshigh7]

You are sheep.

Wow, the Astros have it great. They can focus on saving money and not putting out the best product, and get praised for it. Amazing.

[Aceshigh7]

Once again, I've got to remind myself not to argue with the clueless. All it does it raise my blood pressure. Just keep telling yourself the Stros have done great.

[Groogrux]

Yeah, we clueless sheep will be happy with 11 seasons in the past 12 of contending baseball, racking up one of the best winning percentages over that entire time, not to mention our first World Series appearance. Silly us.

Do us all a favor and just stop posting. We clueless sheep would really hate to be the cause of your heart attack or stroke.

[msn]

Once again, I've got to remind myself not to argue with the clueless. All it does it raise my blood pressure. Just keep telling yourself the Stros have done great.
Who said they've done great?

* If they file that insurance claim, I disagree with that move. But only Dick Justice has said that. I'll believe it when I see it. Guess that makes me a "sheep".
* Your stupid Clemens rant has been dismantled over and over with sound logic, which you *ignore*, and your only response is "you are sheep, I can't argue with the clueless." Again, your statements here seem more "clueless" and "mindless" than those of others.
* If the Astros were truly "focused on not putting out the best product," how in the hell did they just play in the World Series?

I think you're mindlessly following the voices in your head.

If your blood pressure is raised because your stupid foundless takes don't have much following among people who think for themselves, I'm very sorry. Perhaps you *should* push away from the keyboard and go get some fresh air.

Oh, and...

baa... baa... :p

[NJRocket]

1) Cut loose the greatest pitcher in baseball by denying him the time he needed to choose to retire or to play, so they wouldn't have to risk paying him fair market value. (You will find out how important Clemens was this year when we don't have him)

they didnt really cut him loose...he isnt pitching anywhere if he doesnt pitch here..and since he wont be ready until May, he can decide then

2) Inexplicably fired a popular and improving broadcaster

who cares....doesnt affect the ballclub

3) Attempted to trade one of the best closers in the game for an offensive shortstop. (Pretty stupid to sacrifice pitching for hitting, expecially when you see what how important pitching has been for this team the last two years)

but didn't

4) Classlessly tried to shame the greatest player in Astros history into retirement, so that they can add 15 mill to their bottom line

in order to help sign the guy you are complaining about losing in the first place



did I really just shoot down a complainer? :p

[Groogrux]

Welcome to the bright side, NJ Rocket. :D

[msn]

in order to help sign the guy you are complaining about losing in the first place
Hilarious!!

There's a word for that: disingenuous.

[rrj_gamz]

If he can not throw a baseball nearly 8 months after his surgery....he won't be able to 10 months after his surgery.

I don't feel sorry for Jeff one bit.....he still gets his money....

Agreed...Bags will still get paid, the contract is guaranteed, the issue is who will pay it, the insurance co. or the Astros...I know he wants to go another round, but if he can't, he shouldn't...If he then chooses to go to the AL, then it'll be up to another team to take that risk, but it won't be for what he is getting in 2006.

[msn]

Agreed...Bags will still get paid, the contract is guaranteed, the issue is who will pay it, the insurance co. or the Astros...I know he wants to go another round, but if he can't, he shouldn't...If he then chooses to go to the AL, then it'll be up to another team to take that risk, but it won't be for what he is getting in 2006.
Actually, I think if he plays *anywhere* in 2006 (or beyond) then the insurance pays *nothing*. So, the AL team and the Astros would probably be splitting the salary depending on the terms of the trade.

I'm hoping that if McLane really is filing this thing it is a formality on the basis of beating the paperwork deadline. IOW, just b/c the paperwork is filed doesn't mean a decision is made (hopefullY). It seems to me that the decision is made the first day of ST: if he shows up, insurance doesn't pay. The claim filed this week or early next would then simply be denied.

[Rashmon]

I loved what Bags gave to the Astros and will stand and cheer when they retire his number...on opening day.

Sad to say, but, stick a fork in him; he's done.

[Furious Jam]

Once again, I've got to remind myself not to argue with the clueless. All it does it raise my blood pressure. Just keep telling yourself the Stros have done great.

Pretty harsh, man.

Drayton's "what have you done to be a champion today" stuff wears thin, I'll admit. He obviously cares about the bottomline more than wining the world series. But despite that, he puts a great team on the field year after year. And, on a personal note, I've only had one service complaint in all of my years of attendance during his ownership, and he took care of that promptly and personally. You couldn't do much better than Drayton, but you could do a lot worse.

[Baqui99]

If Bagwell plays this year, here's what you'll get for $15 million:

- a pinch hitter for the late innings
- someone who can't play the infield
- lots of towering pop ups to infield or foul territory for easy outs
- lots of "windmill" strikeouts where he swings so hard that he turns around completely
- lots of strikeouts where he swings and misses at the slider low and away
- about 5-7 homers

[Furious Jam]

If Bagwell plays this year, here's what you'll get for $15 million:

- a pinch hitter for the late innings
- someone who can't play the infield
- lots of towering pop ups to infield or foul territory for easy outs
- lots of "windmill" strikeouts where he swings so hard that he turns around completely
- lots of strikeouts where he swings and misses at the slider low and away
- about 5-7 homers

Ha! This is sooo true. He's good for drawing a few walks too, but I think that most pitchers will come right at him nowadays.

Still, what you say doesn't matter. Most of Bag's defenders on this board think that he's earned the right to go out on his own terms, no matter what he's being paid or how he performs.

As far as what he's paid, I don't care. If Drayton ends up saving that money, it'll go right into his pocket.

But his performance is a huge issue. If he can barely throw and if he hits about as well as you and I assume, then he's hurting the team. Some would say that he's at least providing leadership, but leaders must lead by example, and if he's finished, but still on the roster, he won't be setting the example anymore.

Anyway, I think it's all moot. The team wouldn't file an insurance claim if they thought they wouldn't get it. Why would they go through the publicity nightmare of trying to kick Bagwell off if there wasn't a great chance of success? They know that he's not medically fit to play right now, and they've probably asked around to see if any other team would sign him to DH - the answer was probably always "no". I doubt you'll ever see him play again, unless he's crazy enough to play in the indie leagues.

You wish it could've ended better, but hey, life's not perfect.

[TMac640]

can't we like threaten his family some way?

there's gotta be some sensible alternative to this situation.

[candlegreen]

Yeah, everyone's clueless because we like to defend what the Astros are trying to accomplish. I guess the organization needs to hire you instead of all the clueless sheeps with the experience, because you would have paid Bagwell the extra 15 million dollars, resign Roger Clemens for 20 more even though he's not even sure if he wants to play, keep Lidge when Tejada's available (that one could be argued either way) even though the farm system have pitchers ready to contribute and the Astros seemingly logjammed their OF positions to prepare for that trade to bring in a bat like Miguel Tejada to MMP, and .... oh yeah, they fired a broadcaster that practically put down an ultimating.

Well, baaa....

Let's see what they're trying to do.

1) The Astros made sure that they won't waste big money on a name that could prove to be disasterous to the team's financial status. Drayton might have money, but only those who spent their money wisely could end up being financially secured. All and all, Drayton wants to win, and he'll spend money when he has a good confidence that it's the right move. Believe it or not, it's still a business as well as a hobby, so if a player such as Burnett comes along and asks for 48-50 million, there's really no reason to pay such money when you can spend less on some players that could give the team Chemistry to make another run at the title.

2) Play-by-Play broadcasters. I would imagine that this was such a pain for you to swallow because Milo gave him so much props? He's improving only because he doesn't stutter as much, but I believe that Ashby played Milo's backing as a bargaining chip to improve his pay and status. He was not a great broadcaster, but not a terrible one. To become what he does, he put the Astros in an awkward position and probably would have required more money that was not the wisest to spend. Someone's going to come back saying how negligent that money is compared to the players, etc., but money still needs to be spent wisely in order for a team to be successful.

3) Lidge, Lane, and Everett for Tejada was the offer? Tejada in MMP could be a scary thought. Although the Astros would have to give up a potential OF starter and one of the best closers in the game, this might be one deal that the Astros would have to make. Lidge would require more and more money as the years pile on, and the Astros actually have a nice group of pitchers that are Major League ready. Getting Tejada to solidify the lineup that already includes Biggio, Berkman, Ensberg, and Preston would be great for the organization to make a couple more runs at something special. Basically, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. We're not getting people, Astros Management sucks. We're trying to trade Lidge (not even thinking about what we get back) and fans are happy to hear it, the fans must be sheep.... Pitching wins games, but hitting is necessary too. How frustrated were you to see the Astros with a great scoring opportunity late in a playoff game only to see Bobby Jenks strike out the side and secure the victory??

4) Bagwell's situation is unfortunate, but the Astros will need to secure every dollar they can if the situation comes up. It's tough to see him struggle, but 15 million dollars is a lot of money, especially if the insurance covers that. You're already assuming that Drayton will pocket the money... Drayton has shown time and time again that he's spending money. In fact, the Astros has quite a payroll. Basically, we sign a star to a long contract and the contract turns bad because of an injury, and the Astros management gets blamed. We did not sign every star that's a free agent or are involved in every trade that was made, the Astros management are incompetent. The Astros offers to trade one of the team's fan favorite for someone that was a frontrunner for the MVP last year for most of the season, the Astros are stupid and doesn't know what they're doing. Finally, the Astros doesn't want to spend 35 million dollars on 2 players and change for an average broadcaster, we're all sheep.

[Hakeem06]

The Astros aren't showing any loyalty now. Bags has earned the right to try to come back. Hell, I went to games in 2004 where he couldn't throw across the diamond, watching him in warmups was sad. But he still helped us out with his bat big time.

God, some of you have blinders on when it comes to the Astros. I wish I could screw up my job like they have at every juncture this offseason and still have people defend me like y'all do the Astros. This offseason has been a disaster but you don't hear much about it from the average fan.

i feel your frustration and i'm right there along with you. jeff bagwell has sacrificed a lot for this organization and has been the picture of professionalism. what do the astros do to reward him? try to push him out the door. people don't understand the astros OWE jeff the same LOYALTY he shoud them over his career. if he still wants to try to give it a go for next season the astros OWE him that opportunity. i've been a houston sports fan my whole life and with my father, it's like you can combine our ages together and that's how long we've supported houston pro sports teams. jeff bagwell is one of a handful of players that houston can call their own. he's a houston sports legend and one of my favorite ATHLETES EVER. he's done everything the right way during his career and people like that deserve to go out on a positive note and a hero. regardless of jeff's role next year, he would go out a hero to hear one last season of cheers at MMP. he DESERVES that as much as any athlete in my lifetime, the astros should at least give him that much.

[Major]

people don't understand the astros OWE jeff the same LOYALTY he shoud them over his career.

As nice a story as it might be, the Astros bought Bagwell's loyalty by paying him market prices. It's not like he took a discount to play here - that's why he's getting paid $17,000,000 this year.

Neither party owes the other anything at this point. Both should do what's in their best interests.

[Hakeem06]

well, bags did take numerous pay cuts to bring in other players during the years and they threw the money from those paycuts onto the latter years of his contract. he DESERVES the money that is owed to him. i'm sorry, for just one season the guy wants to play, we are pushing him out? it doesn't make sense. i would like to think our organization would hold a special place for not only a player but a person like bagwell.

[Fatty FatBastard]

well, bags did take numerous pay cuts to bring in other players during the years and they threw the money from those paycuts onto the latter years of his contract. he DESERVES the money that is owed to him. i'm sorry, for just one season the guy wants to play, we are pushing him out? it doesn't make sense. i would like to think our organization would hold a special place for not only a player but a person like bagwell.

You realize he gets paid his full salary, regardless, don't you?

[Major]

well, bags did take numerous pay cuts to bring in other players during the years and they threw the money from those paycuts onto the latter years of his contract.

I think this is more myth than fact (it might be more fact with Biggio, although I'm not really sure). According to this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/features/2002/scouting_reports/astros/

Bagwell signed a 5-yr, $85M contract extension back in 2002 - that's an average of $17MM per year. That's not a discount, no matter how you look at it.

Also, this probably doesn't help his cause:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060111&content_id=1294361&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

"The intent of this is to find out where Jeff stands right now," Purpura said. "He's refused to visit with the team doctors this offseason. Until a doctor sees him, we don't know where he stands."

[DaDakota]

All of this will end after the insurance company denies the claim and Jeff will claim his feeling were hurt, go out, try to play, and then retire.

That is what the great Karnack told me.

DD

[msn]

he's done everything the right way during his career and people like that deserve to go out on a positive note and a hero.
But if he goes out there and can't hit and can't field, he won't go out as a hero. Do you really want to see Jeff Bagwell hit .098 for two months, miss ground balls, and exit the field after strikeouts under a chorus of boos? Because that possibility exists. And, I don't want to see it.

As I said earlier, I am hoping that the filing of the claim is paperwork and that the deadline is actually much later. I heard Purpura on with the idiots this morning and he said some interesting things:
1) The report that if he plays at all at ST the insurance won't pay is not necessarily accurate!
2) The Astros are working hard at pursuing the insurance claim AND giving Bagwell every opportunity to prove he can play.

I wish dude could come back and hit 25 dingers, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen.

[NJRocket]

All of this will end after the insurance company denies the claim .

DD


I tend to agree....the guy has been a pinch hitter since last Aug or Sept, which, at last check, decsribes many marginal players in the NL

[Buck Turgidson]

The Houston Astros feel that Jeff Bagwell will be unable to contribute a healthy season in 2006, and two doctors that have examined the first baseman have officially agreed. Now it's up to the insurance company to make its call.

After receiving feedback from team medical director Dr. David Litner and orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews, the Astros are moving forward with their plans to file an insurance claim on Bagwell, who was deemed by the doctors as a disabled player. The claim, according to club owner Drayton McLane, will be filed on Tuesday.

This is not the earth-shattering news. What happens in the coming weeks could be, because the Astros essentially have one month to figure out a way to prevent Bagwell from heading to Kissimmee, Fla., on Feb. 23 when position players report to Spring Training.

According to McLane, the club would like to give Bagwell the chance to prove he can play while the team trains in Florida. Whether or not he can do that, and still give the Astros a chance to collect on the insurance, is to be determined.

"We would like for him to have the opportunity," McLane said. "Jeff has been the heartbeat of the Houston Astros for the last 10 to 12 years. He's been one of the best players in the history of the game. We'd like for him to have the opportunity. Jeff admits right now he's disabled at this time. He thinks he can be ready to play during Spring Training. It's undetermined whether we could allow him to do that."

The sticking point is the deadline to file the claim, which is Jan. 31 -- a full two months before the regular season begins, and three weeks before Bagwell had planned to test his right shoulder in earnest.

Lawyers are working diligently to read the fine print and determine the club's rights, the insurance company's role and Bagwell's chances. Throw in the public nature of this matter, and what we have is a whole bunch of confusion. Some answers are known. Others have yet to be revealed.

"This is the first step in the process," general manager Tim Purpura said. "He's supposed to report Feb. 23. We have a month. What does all this mean? Jeff has stated he is going to report. We have to figure out where everything else stands."

"In the original policy, (the insurance company) claims that he could not come to Spring Training," McLane said. "We're going to take all of the information we have and meet with them and see if there is any opportunity (for Bagwell to play in Spring Training). Jeff just wants the opportunity."

Bagwell is owed $17 million this year, and he will receive it. It's a matter of who pays him, the Astros or the insurance company, which could pick up $15.6 million. Time is running out, at least from the Astros' standpoint.

Bagwell's argument is that in order to determine if he can play, he has to do just that -- play.

"The Astros want to know if I can play, and if I can't play, they want to try to collect on the insurance. That I have no problem with," he said during an interview with MLB.com radio. "In order for me to know if I can play baseball, I need to play baseball. No matter what I do in the offseason, that doesn't prepare me ... I've got to test myself, I've got to play every day. I've got to hit, then I've got to throw, play the field and do the same things I've done over the last five years.

"I need baseball experience and that's Spring Training. If I can't play then I have no problem with them trying to collect insurance. I just want the opportunity to try to play.

"When I get down to Spring Training, my arm starts to get used to it a little bit, have some cortisone, take a painkiller and then have adrenaline in a game, I can make it work. If I can do that and maintain my hitting, then I'm able to be a productive player."

The Astros aren't so optimistic. Bagwell's shoulder has deteriorated over the past four years since his 2001 surgery to repair what appeared at the time to be a fixable torn labrum. What they found in the shoulder was far worse, and over the years, the shoulder has become degenerative and arthritic, and the cartilage is non-existent.

He played on an acceptable level for the next three years, but last May, throwing became impossible and he went on the disabled list. A month later, Bagwell underwent an unconventional procedure to release the capsule surrounding the shoulder, and he sped up his rehab in order to return in September as a pinch-hitter.

He has spent the entire offseason rehabbing the shoulder with the hopes that he could throw across the infield, and it's still undetermined whether he will be successful in that quest. Now, it appears he may not have the chance to find out.

"It's a timing issue," said Barry Axelrod, Bagwell's agent. "Once he had surgery, he didn't gear up to be ready for Feb. 23 or even Spring Training. He was gearing up for Opening Day. Our hope, and I think everyone's hope, would be it he could have through Spring Training, and then a determination be made."

The next step will likely involve a third set of doctors, hired by the insurance company to make the final call. That will happen after the Astros file the claim.

"Most likely, they will get one or two doctors to examine Jeff and make a conclusion," McLane said. "They're not going to just take two physicians (Lintner, Andrews) who are highly respected. They're going to want people that represent them to look at the same information."

And if these doctors agree with the first two, it appears the Astros are prepared to part ways with the greatest slugger in franchise history, and one of McLane's favorites.

"This is the 14th year I've owned the team and we've had a lot of major, major issues," McLane said. "This is the most painful and difficult decision. Jeff and I have been very close personally. He and I have spent a lot of time together and as the Astros were emerging in '96 and '97, he was the heartbeat. It's just very sad."

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060123&content_id=1299666&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Follow the link for audio of Bag's interview on mlb radio.

[codell]

the Astros essentially have one month to figure out a way to prevent Bagwell from heading to Kissimmee, Fla., on Feb. 23

The Astros should just hire Chuck Norris and be done with it.

Seriously, this sounds like the tagline for a movie.

[swilkins]

if the astros screw him over i hope he goes to another team and destroys the astros in some way and then wins a world series. I hate it when crap like this happens. i know its part of the sport and all, but it just makes it seem so much less like a game.

It's sad that he might not finish his career here, but let's be realistic. Bags will never be the player that he once was. What I think is sad is players don't accept it and draw out their retirement until until they fade like a fart.

I think Bagwell should hold a press conference and thank the Astro's and fans for support and then retire.

We'll comemorate a day on his behalf.

[msn]

fade like a fart.
This situation is such a bummer, and I really needed to laugh.

So, thanks!!

FADE LIKE A FART!!! Brilliant!!!! :D

[Groogrux]

Well, this (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3608740.html) doesn't sound good.

Bagwell says he'll report for spring training

By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Just in case there’s any doubt, Jeff Bagwell is adamant that he will be at Osceola County Stadium for the first full-squad workout at spring training on Feb. 24.

It also appears that the franchise’s relationship with their veteran first baseman is irreparably damaged or, at least, in need of severe mending.

“It probably will never be fixed between me and the Astros,” Bagwell said Tuesday morning in his first public comments since general manager Tim Purpura declared Monday that Bagwell “from a technical point of view right now he is a disabled player. He can’t play professional baseball -- certainly not at the National League at this point.”

Bagwell agrees with Purpura’s assessment that it is a mere formality that the Astros will beat the Jan. 31 deadline for the team to file an insurance claim to recoup $15.6 million of the $17 million he will earn for the 2006 season.

“Well, it’s really not that disheartening for the simple fact they have to do this in order for them to protect themselves,” Bagwell said.

On Monday night, Bagwell told his longtime agent Barry Axelrod that he didn’t want to comment at that point because he was rushing out to attend the Lenny Kravitz and Aerosmith concert. By Tuesday morning, he was more willing to discuss his feelings.

“To me more than anything else, it’s just amazing how bad they don’t want me to play,” said the Astros’ all-time leader in home runs and RBIs. “Anything else said it’s just not the truth. They just want to collect their money. It’s an awkward situation. It’s just amazing to me how much they don’t want me to play.”

Even if the Astros file the claim by the Jan. 31 deadline, Purpura acknowledges that there’s no guarantee the insurance company will agree with the Astros’ findings.

Bagwell has suffered from an arthritic right shoulder condition since 2001, but he avoided the disabled list until May 2005. He was unable to start from May 4, 2005, until the first game of the World Series in late October, when he was the Astros’ designated hitter for Games 1 and 2 at Chicago’s U.S. Cellular Field against the White Sox.

He underwent capsular release surgery on his right shoulder on June 7 and rushed his rehab to come off the disabled list in September. He has been working out and undergoing physical therapy this winter in hopes of playing in 2006, the final year of his contract.

Although the Astros may not be able to recoup on the insurance if Bagwell practices this spring, Bagwell is committed to going to spring training. He adamantly plans to be at Osceola County Stadium next month with his teammates.

“I sure do,” he says. “Formalities or whatever, the thing to me is I am a under contract for 2006. No matter whatever is said or not, it should be no matter. I know I have a bad shoulder. I know I’m coming off surgery. I just want to have an opportunity to see if I can play.”

Bagwell has been a crowd favorite in Houston since his Rookie of the Year season in 1991. The 1994 National League Most Valuable Player has been appreciative of the support he has received from Astros fans across town recently.

“Obviously it makes me feel good,” he said. “Wherever I go people are not going to tell me I stink, obviously. But they’ve been great. More than anything else, they just say, ‘I hope you get a chance.’ They feel bad for the situation. That’s great. The fans here for my 15 years have been nothing but special to me. I appreciate that.”

Bagwell hopes this situation serves to teach his teammates and fans that baseball is a business above all else.

“I tell you what, I didn’t script this,” he said. “I did not script the end of my career to end it when you’re pushed out the door. It all comes down to the same fact. It’s a business. And when you think it’s not a business, you’re reminded it’s a business.

“My teammates, now they know how much of a business it is. And for certainly I know how much of a business it is. As I reiterate, now I hope fans understand how much of a business it is. I’m not looking for handout. I’m not looking for sympathy. It’s just a business.”

[Hakeem06]

On Monday night, Bagwell told his longtime agent Barry Axelrod

wait a second...so that guy who assaulted antonio davis' wife is BAGS agent???? nevermind, i change my opinion on the guy. :D

[MadMax]

i feel sorry for bagwell. but if he thinks they wouldn't LOVE to have his production, he's crazy. they already have to pay his contract...so why not give him a chance unless you TRULY believe he's entirely incapable of making a difference for them. they've had doctors look at the guy..and they say he can't play. bagwell himself says he can't make a throw from first to third.

[Hakeem06]

I think this is more myth than fact (it might be more fact with Biggio, although I'm not really sure). According to this:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/features/2002/scouting_reports/astros/

Bagwell signed a 5-yr, $85M contract extension back in 2002 - that's an average of $17MM per year. That's not a discount, no matter how you look at it.

Also, this probably doesn't help his cause:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060111&content_id=1294361&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

"The intent of this is to find out where Jeff stands right now," Purpura said. "He's refused to visit with the team doctors this offseason. Until a doctor sees him, we don't know where he stands."



of course he doesn't want to see the team doctors. they are going to tell the astros what they want to hear, and if a team doctor does say bags is okay to play, they probably fire him and hire a new one to until they hear what they want from the doctor. if mclane wants his money , he'll find a way to get it, as do most owners.

and i know bags get's paid full salary, but when restructured his contract before he did lose money in doing so.

[Groogrux]

i feel sorry for bagwell. but if he thinks they wouldn't LOVE to have his production, he's crazy. they already have to pay his contract...so why not give him a chance unless you TRULY believe he's entirely incapable of making a difference for them. they've had doctors look at the guy..and they say he can't play. bagwell himself says he can't make a throw from first to third.

That's what I'm not understanding. He even acknowledges that they have to file the claim to protect themselves. I love Bagwell. He's always been my favorite player, but this sounds like a guy who can't accept the fact that he's not the same player he was. I really hope his relationship with the organization isn't damaged beyond repair.

[Buck Turgidson]

but when restructured his contract before he did lose money in doing so.
How so?

[Baqui99]

Is there any way that we can get Jeff a bionic arm installed in time for spring training? :)

Either way look forward to the following:

- a pinch hitter for the late innings
- someone who can't play the infield
- lots of towering pop ups to infield or foul territory for easy outs
- lots of "windmill" strikeouts where he swings so hard that he turns around completely
- lots of strikeouts where he swings and misses at the slider low and away
- about 5-7 homers

[Fatty FatBastard]

How so?

I agree. Where is this shown? I think you've been misinformed on this matter... again.

[xiki]

bagwell himself says he can't make a throw from first to third.

Bags, regrettably, hasn't been able to throw to 2nd in a couple of years.

I hate this script for his ending, but who can possibly rewrite it for a prettier sunset ride?

[Bobblehead]

I'm sorry...but I feel NO sympathy for Bags. How can anyone feel bad for a guy ready to make $17mil???
He's not even 40 yet and has his whole life in front of him. He'll probably stay in baseball in some facet or just travel the world until he dies.

He ought to face up that he's done. I also wish he would be honest with himself.

[Surfguy]

I think Astros management is handling the situation poorly if Bagwell's interpretation of the situation is "they don't want me to play". This guy is working his ass off to try to come back and play well enough to help our team. Then, you have Purpura sitting there saying all this crap based on a doctor's visit. We all know Bagwell has been battling the arthritic shoulder for years. He has shown he can play through intense pain and I'm sure doctors were saying the same crap about his shoulder then. Bagwell is not your regular ball player. His passion for the game allows him to overcome the odds. That is one of the reasons he has been so special. I don't want to see him go out in a situation where management is on his ass and there is a war of words leading to harsh feelings. That's no way for our star player to go into retirement...if it comes to that.

[thegary]

What have I got to do to make you love me
What have I got to do to make you care
What do I do when lightning strikes me
And I wake to find that you’re not there

What do I do to make you want me
What have I got to do to be heard
What do I say when it’s all over
And sorry seems to be the hardest word

It’s sad, so sad
It’s a sad, sad situation
And it’s getting more and more absurd
It’s sad, so sad
Why can’t we talk it over
Oh it seems to me
That sorry seems to be the hardest word

What do I do to make you love me
What have I got to do to be heard
What do I do when lightning strikes me
What have I got to do
What have I got to do
When sorry seems to be the hardest word

[Hakeem06]

i'm talking about money that on his previous contract to 2002 where he reconstructed money out of his contract to help bring in other players. if i'm incorrect i apologize but i remember reports of him restructuring his contract (previous to 2002) where he took a pay cut to help bring in other players.

[Groogrux]

i'm talking about money that on his previous contract to 2002 where he reconstructed money out of his contract to help bring in other players. if i'm incorrect i apologize but i remember reports of him restructuring his contract (previous to 2002) where he took a pay cut to help bring in other players.

I'm pretty sure the MLBPA would not allow that.

[codell]

i'm talking about money that on his previous contract to 2002 where he reconstructed money out of his contract to help bring in other players. if i'm incorrect i apologize but i remember reports of him restructuring his contract (previous to 2002) where he took a pay cut to help bring in other players.

what he did was defer money to the back end ......with interest

he did the Stros a favor, but he didn't lose money or take a pay cut

[Hakeem06]

i know it happens in the NFL, because the cowboys (troy aikman inparticular) had players do it during their title runs to keep all the guys together as long as possible.

[Groogrux]

i know it happens in the NFL, because the cowboys (troy aikman inparticular) had players do it during their title runs to keep all the guys together as long as possible.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt any player in any of the major sports has signed a contract and then voluntarily took money off that contract. The NFLPA, NHLPA, NBAPA and the MLBPA would not allow that to happen. It wouldn't set a good precedent.

[Hakeem06]

what he did was defer money to the back end ......with interest

he did the Stros a favor, but he didn't lose money or take a pay cut

okay, thanks for clearing that up. but still the astros agreed to it and owe him the money he earned during his prime years. i just think the astros are being cheap again, worrying about the bottom line and not worrying about doing the right thing with one of the faces of the houston astros franchise.

[Groogrux]

okay, thanks for clearing that up. but still the astros agreed to it and owe him the money he earned during his prime years. i just think the astros are being cheap again, worrying about the bottom line and not worrying about doing the right thing with one of the faces of the houston astros franchise.

He is going to get his money regardless. Quit worrying about his financial security.

If he can't play his position and the Astros have been making payments on the premium (which is done by all teams), why shouldn't they try to make a claim?

[Hakeem06]

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt any player in any of the major sports has signed a contract and then voluntarily took money off that contract. The NFLPA, NHLPA, NBAPA and the MLBPA would not allow that to happen. It wouldn't set a good precedent.

again, i'm sorry but aikman probably did what jeff did. take money out of certain years to clear cap room, and add it on to the end of the contract. to me, it is still all money earned and owed to the player who would consider doing it to help make the team better at that point in time. there are a lot players who say hell no to a situation like that because they want their money right now.

[Hakeem06]

He is going to get his money regardless. Quit worrying about his financial security.

If he can't play his position and the Astros have been making payments on the premium (which is done by all teams), why shouldn't they try to make a claim?

i'm not worried about his financial security, but he did earn that money over his career. i just think the astros should stop worrying about saving money just to keep it in their pockets for their own financial gain when it should go to a guy who put in a lot of hard work to help their franchise become successful. i just think the right thing to do, is to let jeff take a try at another year. i'm pretty sure if he can't play at a level he's comfortable with, he'll do the right thing and retire. but to deny a man that opportunity is wrong.

[Fatty FatBastard]

i'm not worried about his financial security, but he did earn that money over his career. i just think the astros should stop worrying about saving money just to keep it in their pockets for their own financial gain when it should go to a guy who put in a lot of hard work to help their franchise become successful. i just think the right thing to do, is to let jeff take a try at another year. i'm pretty sure if he can't play at a level he's comfortable with, he'll do the right thing and retire. but to deny a man that opportunity is wrong.

So if the Astros are able to get the 15.6 million for Bagwell because the insurance company says he is disabled (which he will have to be, in order to pay out) you'd still rather it come directly from the Astro's payroll, even though Bags will get paid either way?

This is win-win for all parties involved. Either the insurance company deems he can still play, in which case he will, or they deem he can't, which pretty much silences Jeff's will to play. If you can't do it, you can't do it, no matter what your mind wants.

Then we can use that 15.6 on someone else. That is a huge chunk of change.

[HillBoy]

I saw this coming last year. As much as Bagwell has done for this franchise and as much as he means to the city and Astro fans, in the end, you can't defeat Father Time. To me, the issue here is that Bagwell does not want to admit that he is done so he and his agent are forcing the issue with the Astros. The folks blaming the Astros for this are way off base. The Astros carried him on their playoff and World Series even though he was basically a singles hitter who couldn't help them very much. If they carry him on their roster that's $17 million for a player who can't help them very much (and he didn't). That's money that can be used to get another bat. If they keep Bags and he can't be that bat, then the same people criticising them for seeking this insurance money will be bitching them out for keeping him on the team. That's just the nature of the beast I suppose...

[Bobblehead]

I saw this coming last year. As much as Bagwell has done for this franchise and as much as he means to the city and Astro fans, in the end, you can't defeat Father Time. To me, the issue here is that Bagwell does not want to admit that he is done so he and his agent are forcing the issue with the Astros. The folks blaming the Astros for this are way off base. The Astros carried him on their playoff and World Series even though he was basically a singles hitter who couldn't help them very much. If they carry him on their roster that's $17 million for a player who can't help them very much (and he didn't). That's money that can be used to get another bat. If they keep Bags and he can't be that bat, then the same people criticising them for seeking this insurance money will be bitching them out for keeping him on the team. That's just the nature of the beast I suppose...


Well said!!

[Hakeem06]

So if the Astros are able to get the 15.6 million for Bagwell because the insurance company says he is disabled (which he will have to be, in order to pay out) you'd still rather it come directly from the Astro's payroll, even though Bags will get paid either way?

This is win-win for all parties involved. Either the insurance company deems he can still play, in which case he will, or they deem he can't, which pretty much silences Jeff's will to play. If you can't do it, you can't do it, no matter what your mind wants.

Then we can use that 15.6 on someone else. That is a huge chunk of change.

the problem is i don't trust the astros to use that money on anyone else. i just see mclane keeping it in his own pockets, that's just one reason bags should be given a shot to play. if jeff can't play, he better use that money on other players not just keep it for himself.

[arkoe]

Bagwell's in denial. He's not going to be able to play this year, but by going to Spring Training he's going to cost the Astros a lot of money that they could use somewhere else.

Bagwell was my favorite player growing up, but right now he's hurting the Astros, whether he realizes it or not. He earned the right to play, I won't argue him on that, but he's costing the Astros $17 million when he's at best going to be a pinch hitter. He can't play the field, and he's not going to even be the first option off the bench. He may have earned the right to play, but he doesn't have the right to charge the Astros all that money when he's going to have the production of about a rookie.

When it boils down though, the Astros bought a crappy insurance policy. They should have negotiated it to where Bags was able to go to Spring Training and then have to make a decision, not before.

[Buck Turgidson]

i'm not worried about his financial security, but he did earn that money over his career. i just think the astros should stop worrying about saving money just to keep it in their pockets for their own financial gain when it should go to a guy who put in a lot of hard work to help their franchise become successful. i just think the right thing to do, is to let jeff take a try at another year. i'm pretty sure if he can't play at a level he's comfortable with, he'll do the right thing and retire. but to deny a man that opportunity is wrong.
You're arguing yourself in circles. Nobody is trying to take money from Bagwell. He gets paid regardless. The Astros are trying to reach an agreement with the insurance company to postpone a final judgement (by the insurance company's doctors, btw, your earlier post about the Astros "finding a doctor" that will rule Bagwell unable to play was ridiculous - is James Andrews an Astros doctor now?) and allow Bagwell to attend Spring Training. Both the Astros & Bagwell want this.

The Astros have to file the claim by Jan. 31. They'd be idiots not to, given the situation.

Bagwell has no say in this, the Astros have no say in this. Once they reach an agreement on the timing of the decision, it's all up to the insurance company's doctors.

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

[Hakeem06]

i just hope that the astros treat bagwell the way he deserves to be treated that's all. i don't know alot about what the policy says but i know that jeff deserves a little bit more respect from the astros trying to push him out. regardless, jeff does need to go see a doctor, preferably an independent party doctor, not the astros, not jeff's own, not the insurance company's, to get checked out. if an independent party doctor says he can't play, then that's it, jeff should take the insurance money and go off into the sunset. if the doctor says he can play, the astros should give him the opportunity to play.

[bobrek]

the problem is i don't trust the astros to use that money on anyone else. i just see mclane keeping it in his own pockets, that's just one reason bags should be given a shot to play. if jeff can't play, he better use that money on other players not just keep it for himself.

McLane can do whatever he wants with the money. He is the one who owns the team. It is not up to the fans to decide what to do.

In baseball, your contract is guaranteed, unlike the current football contracts. If the Astros were to simply "cut" Bagwell, he will still receive every single dollar his contract calls for as well as money+interest that he deferred.

The Astros would be irresponsible NOT to pursue an insurance settlement. Wouldn't you pursue an insurance settlement on your car, house, medical, etc., if something that is covered occurs?

[Buck Turgidson]

The Astros carried him on their playoff and World Series even though he...couldn't help them very much...(and he didn't).
Yep, outside of getting a game winning hit in the 9th inning late in the season (a season in which the Astros made the playoffs by 1 game) and sparking a 2 run game-tying rally in the 9th inning of Game 2 of the World Series, he didn't help much.

[Hakeem06]

maybe i haven't made it clear that i don't have a problem with the whole insurance policy, every player has one. but the way the astros are handling it, it seems like they are forcing jeff to go ahead say he can't play just so they can collect the cash. i think we should all wait and here what a doctor has to say before shoving jeff out the door. that's what this whole situation feels like. no one is even considering, what if he is cleared to play? then what? the guy deserves better than to be shoved out the door without him having a shot to pursue his wishes.


and if mclane keeps the money because he feels there aren't players out there to help this team, fine. but he should look into making this team better. if he didn't realize it last year, when your team is successful on the field you make money. more people are inclined to buy tickets to see the team, people buy merchandise, etc. the astros probably had as much financial success as they've ever had last season because they were successful on the field. they go hand in hand.

[Buck Turgidson]

regardless, jeff does need to go see a doctor, preferably an independent party doctor, not the astros, not jeff's own, not the insurance company's, to get checked out. if an independent party doctor says he can't play, then that's it, jeff should take the insurance money and go off into the sunset.
Ferfuksake man, he's already done this. Dr. James Andews ring a bell?

Apparently the diagnosis was not promising.

[Hakeem06]

Ferfuksake man, he's already done this. Dr. James Andews ring a bell?

Apparently the diagnosis was not promising.

did the doctor say he couldn't play?

[msn]

did the doctor say he couldn't play?
Yes..

[JunkyardDwg]

I haven't really seen anything the Astros have done to this point indicating they are forcing Bagwell's hand. Certainly they would like his production, IF he can play. But if he can't, then of course they would rather the inusrance company pick up the tab. This is 17 million dollars after all. It would be a stupid move on the organization to not get as much information on his shoulder as possible and to at least file the claim. Once that deadline passes, they are stuck with a possible 17 milllion dollar pinch hitter. And you can bet if there's any hint he'll be able to field the insurance won't kick in anyways. And if the insurance company deems he can't play at all, I'd sure take their word as gold, cause you know they wouldn't pay a dime of that salary unless they absolutey had to. If it comes to that, Bagwell should accept it and retire.

[JunkyardDwg]

Yes..

I don't remember hearing that. Reports were not very promising and Purpura was quoted as saying he was a disabled player. But that's pretty obvious, cause he's been a disabled player for the better part of 3 years. How disabled is the question.

[Hakeem06]

Certainly they would like his production, IF he can play. But if he can't, then of course they would rather the inusrance company pick up the tab. This is 17 million dollars after all. It would be a stupid move on the organization to not get as much information on his shoulder as possible and to at least file the claim. Once that deadline passes, they are stuck with a possible 17 milllion dollar pinch hitter. And you can bet if there's any hint he'll be able to field the insurance won't kick in anyways. And if the insurance company deems he can't play at all, I'd sure take their word as gold, cause you know they wouldn't pay a dime of that salary unless they absolutey had to. If it comes to that, Bagwell should accept it and retire.


agreed. if doctors tell jeff he needs to retire he should do it, they know what the human body can and can't do.

but i want to hear a definitive statement by a doctor first before i say jeff should hang it up. he's owed that. everyone saying he should just retire now is who i'm upset with. he's owed the opportunity to play if he can phsyically do it. if not, he should retire because it's best for both him and the team.

[msn]

agreed. if doctors tell jeff he needs to retire he should do it, they know what the human body can and can't do.

but i want to hear a definitive statement by a doctor first before i say jeff should hang it up. he's owed that.
He's had two --TWO-- doctors say that. One of them has no affiliation whatsoever with the Astros and is the most highly respected in his profession. Why on earth is that not good enough for you?

I want him to be able to give Spring Training a go as well, but it seems you need to acknowledge the grim reality that the *best* doctors, with no interest from/in the Astros, have already said, "he can't play".

[rrj_gamz]

I saw this coming last year. As much as Bagwell has done for this franchise and as much as he means to the city and Astro fans, in the end, you can't defeat Father Time. To me, the issue here is that Bagwell does not want to admit that he is done so he and his agent are forcing the issue with the Astros. The folks blaming the Astros for this are way off base. The Astros carried him on their playoff and World Series even though he was basically a singles hitter who couldn't help them very much. If they carry him on their roster that's $17 million for a player who can't help them very much (and he didn't). That's money that can be used to get another bat. If they keep Bags and he can't be that bat, then the same people criticising them for seeking this insurance money will be bitching them out for keeping him on the team. That's just the nature of the beast I suppose...

Couldn't agree more...He admits its a business, although, TimP can't be nice on the issues as its a $17MM insurance policy they have a claim on...You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth, especially if you want to get paid...

[msn]

You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth, especially if you want to get paid...
Wanting to get paid is not the issue--that's a given. Dude wants to play.

[Hakeem06]

He's had two --TWO-- doctors say that. One of them has no affiliation whatsoever with the Astros and is the most highly respected in his profession. Why on earth is that not good enough for you?

I want him to be able to give Spring Training a go as well, but it seems you need to acknowledge the grim reality that the *best* doctors, with no interest from/in the Astros, have already said, "he can't play".

give me a credible link to where a doctor said he couldn't play and i'll acknowledge that he can't. i haven't seen such a PUBLISHED report yet, so i'm not going to go off and say he can't play, like some people. i'm going to make the assumption he can't until i see that a doctor says he can't. period.

[Hakeem06]

EDIT:

i'm NOT going to make the assumption he can't until i see where a doctor says he can't. period.

[HillBoy]

Yep, outside of getting a game winning hit in the 9th inning late in the season (a season in which the Astros made the playoffs by 1 game) and sparking a 2 run game-tying rally in the 9th inning of Game 2 of the World Series, he didn't help much.
So if I understand you correctly, that was worth $17 million to you. Even though the Astros were swept in the World Series, it was basically OK with you because Bagwell was there to spark that rally in game 2 of the series which the Astros eventaully lost anyway. If that's your position then cool, let's keep him. But there should be no second guessing this move. If he's here and can't play then there can be no finger pointing at Drayton & Tim for not getting another bat because after all we are paying top tier money to a guy that can't help this team win. In the end the only thing that will matter is the Astros' won-loss record.

[Buck Turgidson]

No, Hillboy, you're not reading me correctly. I was just disputing the contention that Bagwell "didn't help much" during his very brief return at the end of last year.

I understand both sides of the Bagwell issue, and can't begrudge either party. We'll see how it plays out.

They've stated that money was not an obstacle to acquiring players this offseason. They've stated that money will not be an obstacle to Racket returning to Houston. Of course $15M would help matters, but they were fully prepared to add significant payroll even without that money, evidenced by the potential Tejada deal.

Was Bagwell worth $17M last year? Of course not. He won't be worth it this year either, but them's the breaks. I've never understood the fascination with payroll numbers, with throwing around other people's money while at the same time calling them cheap. I just don't care that much, I'm more concerned with what goes on on the field. As you said, "In the end the only thing that will matter is the Astros' won-loss record."

[tigermission1]

Interesting...

I just watched Marc Berman on Fox26 and he had Berkman saying that he's "disappointed" in the way Bagwell is being denied his chance to at least attempt a comeback, and said that he knows for a fact Bagwell would be the "first one" to say if he can't play the way he needs to play, and should at least be given the chance to give it a shot.

Interesting that our "franchise" player has publicly commented on this and came down on Baggy's side of things.

[Hakeem06]

tiger i think if this gets any worse, there could be a problem amongst the management and players. this needs to be taken care of quickly before the astros management opens up a huge can of worms.

[Major]

Interesting...

I just watched Marc Berman on Fox26 and he had Berkman saying that he's "disappointed" in the way Bagwell is being denied his chance to at least attempt a comeback, and said that he knows for a fact Bagwell would be the "first one" to say if he can't play the way he needs to play, and should at least be given the chance to give it a shot.

Interesting that our "franchise" player has publicly commented on this and came down on Baggy's side of things.

Berkman's not the one losing $15MM if Bagwell ends up saying no.

Everyone would love to give Bagwell a chance to make it to spring training to see if he can play - that's not an option. A decision has to be made this week. The players don't seem to grasp that.

Players come out against management all the time - then move on. Bagwell bitched about how the team treated both Hampton and Kile. Everyone got over it, and they'll get over this too.

[solid]

If you can't play, you can't play. Why not face it, get paid, and retire with dignity? You've got to know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em.

[pgabriel]

anyone hear richard justice this morning on 610? he may still be on but he said the astros are trying to collect on the 05 salary which is really stupid because he played in the playoffs.

[MadMax]

anyone hear richard justice this morning on 610? he may still be on but he said the astros are trying to collect on the 05 salary which is really stupid because he played in the playoffs.

yeah..i don't understand this at all. certainly they're not that stupid. certainly they have attorneys sorting through this and talking to the insurance company.

[msn]

give me a credible link to where a doctor said he couldn't play and i'll acknowledge that he can't. i haven't seen such a PUBLISHED report yet, so i'm not going to go off and say he can't play, like some people. i'm [not] going to make the assumption he can't until i see that a doctor says he can't. period.
Man, I've heard this about a hundred times in the last several days, have been asleep??

I "googled" it, and the first link that came up is http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3607494.html. Read the article, and you'll notice that the opinions of both Dr. Andrews and Dr. Lintner (although the latter here is a team doctor) are that the man can't play at the professional level.

Not that I'm against Bagwell having his shot, but your contention that no doctor has said anything about his condition is unfounded. And, I only searched for about 2.5 seconds. There are lots more links if you really want them.

[bobrek]

anyone hear richard justice this morning on 610? he may still be on but he said the astros are trying to collect on the 05 salary which is really stupid because he played in the playoffs.

I don't see why this would be stupid. It depends on the language in the policy. I think all of us try to squeeze every last dollar out of the insurance companies when it comes to our cars, health and home so if there is a chance they can recoup something based on the language in the policy, they ought to try and recoup. It would be fiscally irresponsible for the team not to explore all avenues available to them on a policy they have been paying premiums on.

I think it is safe to say that NONE of us know what's in the policy considering the public posturing by the Astros seems to indicate that even they are unsure as to what benefits may be available.

[xiki]

When would the 'stros likely know if the insurance is to be paid on Bags' contract?

Would it, if it came to pass, be used for an ostensible trading deadline salary dump pick up?

Or would Uncle DMc just hold it back?

[NJRocket]

When would the 'stros likely know if the insurance is to be paid on Bags' contract?

Would it, if it came to pass, be used for an ostensible trading deadline salary dump pick up?

Or would Uncle DMc just hold it back?

or used to re-sign Clemens

[xiki]

or used to re-sign Clemens

I hope Rocket returns, but not before June or even ASG. His body won't hold out as long as DMac's $ $ $.

[rrj_gamz]

Wanting to get paid is not the issue--that's a given. Dude wants to play.

No, I meant the Astros wanting to get paid...Bagwell has a guaranteed contract and will get paid, its just who pays it the insurance or the Stros...

I commend him for wanting to, but if you can't, you can't...Time to hang them up...

[msn]

No, I meant the Astros wanting to get paid...Bagwell has a guaranteed contract and will get paid, its just who pays it the insurance or the Stros...

I commend him for wanting to, but if you can't, you can't...Time to hang them up...
I missed you pretty badly on that one! My bad.

[NJRocket]

Yep, outside of getting a game winning hit in the 9th inning late in the season (a season in which the Astros made the playoffs by 1 game) and sparking a 2 run game-tying rally in the 9th inning of Game 2 of the World Series, he didn't help much.

Those are 2 reasons why I don't think the Astros will collect this money. He CAN contribute....he cannot contribute to the tune of 17 million...but a lot of guys in the league are overpaid...he will just be another.

I don't know a whole helluva lot about the insurance biz, but it seems pretty cut and dry to me....he played AND produced LAST YEAR...not to mention that if its last years money they want, theres even more reason as to why they wont collect

[edwardc]

[QUOTE=arkoe]Bagwell's in denial. He's not going to be able to play this year, but by going to Spring Training he's going to cost the Astros a lot of money that they could use somewhere else.

Bags was more productive than most of the stros the last 4 yrs
2002 HOU 158 571 94 166 33 2 31 98 296 101 130 7 3 .401 .518 .291
2003 HOU 160 605 109 168 28 2 39 100 317 88 119 11 4 .373 .524 .278
2004 HOU 156 572 104 152 29 2 27 89 266 96 131 6 4 .377 .465 .266
2005 was the only year he didn't preform .and remember this was before the operation.

[JunkyardDwg]

I would like see the Doctors compare Bagwell's effectiveness now to pre-surgery..then I'd think we can all get a better handle of this whole situation.

[franchise?..NOT]

The Astros obviously made a decision to try to get $15 million of Bag's salary back. They could have chosen not to. I do not know if this is greed or a genuine effort to free up money to help the club.

Does not matter anyway. There is no way that an insurance company is going to declare someone who can hit a baseball like Bagwell can to be unfit to play major league baseball.

I said it in an earlier thread that we should bite the bullet for the good of the club and also to help Bags finish his career with pride and that would be to trade him to Boston for anything productive they can give us. He's got some real value as a DH both at the plate and at the bow office as the Prodigal son returned.

Bags can get as pissed as he wants as can the club. If they can't get him traded and they can't get the insurance to pay off then we take what Bags can give us this year and say our admiring good byes. Too bad Bags is letting this get stuck in his craw.

We could all see this coming when the club signed a 34 year old arthritic ballplaer to a contract inflated by the idiot contract that the Rangers signed ARod to.

Shame, it has come to this. Just when the 'stros should be basking in glory.........

[ROXRAN]

This ending stinks... :mad:

[bobrek]

Does not matter anyway. There is no way that an insurance company is going to declare someone who can hit a baseball like Bagwell can to be unfit to play major league baseball....

The Astros "hired" Jeff Bagwell to play first base. If all he can do is hit, then he cannot perform his job. I suspect there is language in the insurance policy that stipulates that. If not, then the Astros should fire whoever helped write the policy.

If Bagwell cannot throw a ball effectively from first to second or third, then he is unfit to play first base on an MLB team. The Astros are not in the American league, thus Bagwell is of no use to them for the vast majority of the season unless he can play the field.

[NJRocket]

The Astros "hired" Jeff Bagwell to play first base. If all he can do is hit, then he cannot perform his job. I suspect there is language in the insurance policy that stipulates that. If not, then the Astros should fire whoever helped write the policy.

If Bagwell cannot throw a ball effectively from first to second or third, then he is unfit to play first base on an MLB team. The Astros are not in the American league, thus Bagwell is of no use to them for the vast majority of the season unless he can play the field.

I disagree....then why didnt anyone do that with Knoblach? Piazza couldn't throw anyone out and he was hired to be a catcher. What about a guy who just plain stinks....can't field...can't hit a curve...batting .200 etc? You can't make a claim on them. Yes bags has an injury...but he has played since the surgery and produced....I think that is all that will mattr when the insurance company goes over the claim.

[bobrek]

I disagree....then why didnt anyone do that with Knoblach? Piazza couldn't throw anyone out and he was hired to be a catcher. What about a guy who just plain stinks....can't field...can't hit a curve...batting .200 etc? You can't make a claim on them. Yes bags has an injury...but he has played since the surgery and produced....I think that is all that will mattr when the insurance company goes over the claim.

Bagwell has a physical limitation which is preventing him from making the basic plays that a first baseman is expected to make. This limitation is not specifically due to diminishing skills or advancing age. It is not due to mental problems (e.g. Knoblach/Sax). I suspect the insurance policy was purchased for problems that would happen due to unforeseen circumstances. At the time of the policy purchase I assume he underwent a thorough physical which did not identify his degenerative shoulder condition. There is probably language in the policy to cover physical limitations that prevent him from performing his duty for the Astros which is being paid millions of dollars to be a first baseman, not a pinch hitter.

We are not talking about Bagwell making bad throws or throws with less zip on them. We are talking about him 3 hopping throws to the plate or to second base. We are talking about him not getting the ball past the pitcher's mound on a throw to 3rd.

Bagell has NOT produced in the field since the surgery and the crux of this entire issue is whether or not he can produce in the field. This whole issue could have been avoided if the timing was different. There was probably a reason, but the policy SHOULD have had a date at the midpoint of spring training rather than 01/31.

Guys that just plain stink are the fault of the scouting department. These insurance policies are not standard for the everyday, lower level player.

[NJRocket]

I hear you...BUT, don't forget that the claim they are making is against LAST years salary...they apparently don't have insurance on this year's portion of the deal. The fact that he did ANYTHING last season is going to prevent them from collecting.

I wouldn't be shocked if they found some happy medium...say 7 or 8 million or so.....either that or nothing.

I also highly doubt that you can structure an insurance policy (again, i dont know this biz) based on a particular position. Say we have an ins policy on AE...If AE loses lateral movement and cannot play SS and can only really pinch hit (and we all know how well he hits), do they collect? I dont think that they would just because he cant play the position they feel he SHOULD be playing.

[bobrek]

I hear you...BUT, don't forget that the claim they are making is against LAST years salary...they apparently don't have insurance on this year's portion of the deal. The fact that he did ANYTHING last season is going to prevent them from collecting.

I wouldn't be shocked if they found some happy medium...say 7 or 8 million or so.....either that or nothing.

I also highly doubt that you can structure an insurance policy (again, i dont know this biz) based on a particular position. Say we have an ins policy on AE...If AE loses lateral movement and cannot play SS and can only really pinch hit (and we all know how well he hits), do they collect? I dont think that they would just because he cant play the position they feel he SHOULD be playing.

I agree that attempting to recoup last year's salary is a reach, but if the policy is worded a particular way, then they should at least give it a try.

Rather than portraying Bagwell as a first baseman, change that to a fielder. The point I was trying to make is that in the NL he has to be able to play the field, otherwise he is a 17 million dollar pinch hitter. The situation would be drastically different in the AL because it could reasonably be argued that he could DH.

I would think that any position player in the NL, who is covered by insurance, is expected to be able to play in the field. First, Everett wouldn't be a good example, because his contract would not be insured. Berkman would be better. Had his flag football injury been career ending because all he could do was hit, and his contract was insured, the Astros should be able to collect something on it because he is no longer worth the money they are paying him.

A seemingly practical application in the real world (i.e. our lives) is disability insurance. My work policy states that I have to be able to do my job (or something similar) in order to not be eligible for disability. For instance, if I need my legs to do my job and they have to be amputated I cannot simply be put at another position in my company to avoid being paid disability. I have to be put in my same job or a comparable job. In that case, I would negotiate something, but the point is Bagwell (at this point in time) cannot do his job which is to hit and play the field.

[Surfguy]

Well, since it appears the insurance policy says that if they rule Bagwell unfit to play...then he cannot report to spring training. Therefore, my question is does that prevent Bagwell from signing and playing for another team? Like, could he go to Texas and be their DH or something? It's one thing to have a team of doctors say you can't play but we know Jeff can play through pain and has done so for many years. At the very least, we know he can still hit. I think he deserves a chance to play and, if he cannot get that with the Astros, then he should try another team who has nothing to lose and can probably sign him for a minimum amount. As much as I want Jeff to retire an Astro, I didn't foresee this situation occuring where he basically didn't have a say in the matter due to some insurance policy conditions. I think I will also forever hold a grudge if he is not allowed to try to play again for the Astros. It just doesn't seem right. The only real way to determine if he can play or not is to go through the process of trying to play real baseball...not listening to someone tell you what you can or cannot do because it's what they believe.

[Rileydog]

I hear you...BUT, don't forget that the claim they are making is against LAST years salary...they apparently don't have insurance on this year's portion of the deal. The fact that he did ANYTHING last season is going to prevent them from collecting.

I wouldn't be shocked if they found some happy medium...say 7 or 8 million or so.....either that or nothing.

I also highly doubt that you can structure an insurance policy (again, i dont know this biz) based on a particular position. Say we have an ins policy on AE...If AE loses lateral movement and cannot play SS and can only really pinch hit (and we all know how well he hits), do they collect? I dont think that they would just because he cant play the position they feel he SHOULD be playing.

i would be surprised. ins companies don't want to set a precedent. they want to hold the line as - if you show up at spring training, no claim.

[franchise?..NOT]

Bagwell has always been an upright kind of guy so, OK, let him come to spring training and WHEN he proves to himself that he cannot throw, will he step down and retire?. Hmmmmm. He says he JUST wants a chance to come to spring training to see if he can get back his throwing arm, (that he lost 4 years ago), back. OK let's talk the inurance company into letting him have his shot. Then will he do the right thing and step down instead of letting the entire baseball world watch a proud man make a fool of himself ala Mays and so many others. For the record, If Bags can be the whole package then we are a world series contender. If not then less so but only if he refuses the to do what's right and let the Astros use the money to improve the team. Then it becomes up to Drayton to put his money where his mouth is.

[msn]

Then it becomes up to Drayton to put his money where his mouth is.
And we all know he just never does that....

I hope that the parties involved will get creative and find a solution or compromise that works for everyone. One that works, not the Dick Justice drivel from today's Comical.