[ESPN] Bush turned pro after assurance of No. 1 pick

[thech0senone]

Updated: Jan. 15, 2006, 12:48 PM ET
Bush turned pro after assurance of No. 1 pickESPN.com news services

Reggie Bush has long been assumed the top pick in the NFL draft, but after Vince Young's performance in the Rose Bowl, the Trojans wanted some assurance before the Heisman Trophy winner agreed to forgo his senior season.

USC sources told ESPN's Chris Mortensen that coach Pete Carroll gave his blessing for Bush to turn pro only after being assured by Texans owner Bob McNair that the running back would be the No. 1 pick in the draft.

Young, a Texas native, led his Longhorns to a victory over the favored Trojans in the national championship and ignited a public frenzy demanding Houston select the quarterback instead of Bush.

However, the Texans appear to be sticking with their initial plan of drafting the running back -- a preference of the top candidate to become their head coach.

A Broncos source told Mortensen that Gary Kubiak, Denver's offensive coordinator and the favorite for the Texans' head coaching post, believes current Houston quarterback David Carr can flourish with a new offense headlined by Bush and wide receiver Andre Johnson.

Kubiak, a Houston native, is widely considered the likely successor to Dom Capers, who was fired as Texans coach on Jan. 2, one day after finishing a 2-14 season with a loss at San Francisco.

However, under NFL tampering rules, the Texans cannot comment about or finalize any moves involving Kubiak until the Broncos' season is over. Denver advanced to the AFC Championship Game with a 27-13 win over the New England Patriots on Saturday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2293458

[the futants]

i just posted that in two of the other VY/Bush threads. how many of these things to we really need???

[thech0senone]

opps sorry didn't see it, lock it up.

[Rocket River]

*IF* this is true. . . . Isn't this ILLEGAL?
Tampering etc?

Could the Texans get Penalized ala Minnesota with?
If this is true. . I'm very disappointed. . not that it is bush
but at the lack of integrity and ability to follow the rules

Rocket River

[micah1j]

Yes, sounds very illegal. Also why would McNair not want Bush to come out - so why not tell Bush what he wants to hear.

[Trader_Jorge]

*IF* this is true. . . . Isn't this ILLEGAL?
Tampering etc?

How is this tampering? McNair talking to Pete Carroll is not tampering. Kubiak speculating that David Carr would perform well in an offense with Johnson and Bush is not tampering.

What is your tampering allegation aimed at?

[gucci888]

How is this tampering? McNair talking to Pete Carroll is not tampering. Kubiak speculating that David Carr would perform well in an offense with Johnson and Bush is not tampering.

What is your tampering allegation aimed at?

"after being assured by Texans owner Bob McNair that the running back would be the No. 1 pick in the draft."

Teams aren't allowed to even discuss underclassmen, let alone tell them they'll be the #1 pick if they declare. I'm sure there are obvious ways to relay a message to someone, but I think that's what he's talking about.

[Trader_Jorge]

The only context I've heard discussed with regard to tampering is NFL team to NFL team discussions, typically involving coaches that are being considered for another position.

gucci (and RocketRiver) -- Are you saying that Pete Carroll calling Bob McNair and discussing the draft is tampering? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Provide a link to the tampering rules if you don't mind.

[gucci888]

The only context I've heard discussed with regard to tampering is NFL team to NFL team discussions, typically involving coaches that are being considered for another position.

gucci (and RocketRiver) -- Are you saying that Pete Carroll calling Bob McNair and discussing the draft is tampering? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Provide a link to the tampering rules if you don't mind.

I don't think it's just NFL team to NFL team discussions that are illegal. I remember Casserly on 610 saying he wasn't even allowed to discuss Bush because he had not declared.

Like I said, I'm sure there are many ways one can "relay" a message to someone so there could be nothing wrong here. But assuring an underclassman that he will be drafted #1 if he comes out is kind of risky no matter how you get the message out.

[Mr. Clutch]

I'm very disappointed. . not that it is bush
but at the lack of integrity and ability to follow the rules

Rocket River

UNLIKELY

[Aceshigh7]

This sucks. Chances are Bush will be out of the league in 8 years, while Young should still be going strong.

[swilkins]

Come on. You got to give Casserly more credit than that.

wait...

[Chance]

I think it is a load of crap. Reggie has been talking about coming out since last season. It was known that he was coming out. Even if Carroll and Bob had that conversation it had no bearing on Reggie coming out or not.

[reggietodd]

Thats probably why it took Bush so long to actually declare. Its great news though.

[Lil Francis]

Bob McNair can come on tv in a few weeks and say "Im drafting Reggie Bush #1" and some of you still wouldn't believe because of the Vince Young fantasy. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN SO GET OVER IT!. Bush in 06 baby. Please Believe it.

[WasabiTheNinjaPimp]

This sucks. Chances are Bush will be out of the league in 8 years, while Young should still be going strong.


This is bull****, the fact that VY went to UT has -no- effect on his NFL career. I'm sorry to say this but the -ONLY- reason people want to draft VY is because he's from Houston and went to UT. If he was from out of town this discussion would never have even started.

[reggietodd]

Bob McNair can come on tv in a few weeks and say "Im drafting Reggie Bush #1" and some of you still wouldn't believe because of the Vince Young fantasy.

Sad. But very true. Sux for VY fans, but it ain't happening.

[mateo]

while Young should still be going strong.

I'm sure some Oregon fans said the same thing about Joey Harrington.

[percicles]

Bob McNair can come on tv in a few weeks and say "Im drafting Reggie Bush #1" and some of you still wouldn't believe because of the Vince Young fantasy. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN SO GET OVER IT!. Bush in 06 baby. Please Believe it.

Statements like this only show how shortsighted every VY hater is. Have McNair declare RB #1 in a few weeks and watch him ask for the biggest rookie contract in NFL history. Last I checked he hasn't signed Master P so his agents aren't gonna settle for regular RB money. He could ask for twice what Carr, Eli, & Smith got. What are we gonna do then? We have no leverage coz we made a declaration on him. They know we ain't gonna pick Young.

What's that? Trade the pick then you haters say? Who the hell is gonna give us market value after it's been made public that we want Bush and can't sign him?

...real smart people. :rolleyes:

[Deckard]

I think it's all a publicity ploy by Carroll, and who's going to represent Bush. SC's program gets a real boost by having the #1 pick, ESPN always needs a story, whoever the agent in the background is, sure as hell wants Bush #1. From where I sit, it's all talk. Texas will pick who they want, and they haven't picked anyone yet. And the stories about Carr flourishing in a different offense boost his trade value, if that's in the cards.

[gucci888]

From where I sit, it's all talk. Texas will pick who they want, and they haven't picked anyone yet. And the stories about Carr flourishing in a different offense boost his trade value, if that's in the cards.

Thank you Deckard, until I hear it from Casserly/McNair/Kubiak, it's just all talk.

[Desert Scar]

....I'm sorry to say this but the -ONLY- reason people want to draft VY is because he's from Houston and went to UT. If he was from out of town this discussion would never have even started.

You don't think it is because VY showed the most unique combination of athleticism, compusure, size and leadership seen in college football, since well, never?

You really don't think it has anything to do with the guy beating an opponent with last 2 Heismans and loads of 1st round draft picks in their back yard with all the marbles at stake?

You really think all the controversy is because of UT fans. Really?

Why are so many of you so defensive of the Texans having an open mind and bringing all the players in person and judging them based on talent, skill and potential instead of media hype?

[JoeBarelyCares]

Reminds me of when Rudy T promised Rashard Lewis he would pick him. So Rashard went pro instead of going to UH. Then Rudy T left him crying in the green room. ;)

[Baqui99]

The Texans are dead to me if they pass on Vince.

[IC2000]

You don't think it is because VY showed the most unique combination of athleticism, compusure, size and leadership seen in college football, since well, never?

You really don't think it has anything to do with the guy beating an opponent with last 2 Heismans and loads of 1st round draft picks in their back yard with all the marbles at stake?

You really think all the controversy is because of UT fans. Really?

Why are so many of you so defensive of the Texans having an open mind and bringing all the players in person and judging them based on talent, skill and potential instead of media hype?

What I love is this. Everybody who wants VY says that we need to replace carr. What about Leinart then? He is rated higher on most scouts boards as a QB. But since he did not go to madison or UT, he is ignored. Its obvious that people are biased towards Vince or we would hear Leinart talk.

[Lil Francis]

Statements like this only show how shortsighted every VY hater is. Have McNair declare RB #1 in a few weeks and watch him ask for the biggest rookie contract in NFL history. Last I checked he hasn't signed Master P so his agents aren't gonna settle for regular RB money. He could ask for twice what Carr, Eli, & Smith got. What are we gonna do then? We have no leverage coz we made a declaration on him. They know we ain't gonna pick Young.

What's that? Trade the pick then you haters say? Who the hell is gonna give us market value after it's been made public that we want Bush and can't sign him?

...real smart people. :rolleyes:Im not a Vince Young hater at all. I think Vince will be a good NFL quarterback but I think Reggie will be a better pro than Vince. I could be wrong but only time will tell. Only problem I have is that with Casserly coming on saying he will pick up Carr's 3 year option then why would the Texans use a number one pick on a qb? Bush will be the pick and VY people need to get use to it so they won't be too upset on draft day.

[Desert Scar]

What I love is this. Everybody who wants VY says that we need to replace carr. What about Leinart then? He is rated higher on most scouts boards as a QB. But since he did not go to madison or UT, he is ignored. Its obvious that people are biased towards Vince or we would hear Leinart talk.

I am all for taking the top 7 or so prospects in (QB, OT, RB, DE, LB) and exploring all possibilities including trading down. I have said Leinart is the surest prospect in the whole draft. But reportedly VY has a better arm and way more upside, even Leinart referred to VY as a "freakish athlete" who basically was impossible to stop, right after he beat Leinart and a minimum of 3 other 1st round compadres of his (Bush, White, Jarrett).

The Texans should not pass on an oppertunnity for the next Elway/McNabb/McNair type leader player. Those guys are so much more valuable than anyone else, including elite RBs, and you don't not draft them because you think you might have an above average youngish QB in place already.

[jopatmc]

What I love is this. Everybody who wants VY says that we need to replace carr. What about Leinart then? He is rated higher on most scouts boards as a QB. But since he did not go to madison or UT, he is ignored. Its obvious that people are biased towards Vince or we would hear Leinart talk.

Yeah, if Young were from CA and Leinart were from Houston and it was a tossup on who was better, then we should take Leinhart. It's the hometown story.

[Chuck 4]

Good News.....Total BS, but good news. Bush '06 :D

[Agent27]

I'm sure some Oregon fans said the same thing about Joey Harrington.

and Akili Smith

[nWo34Life]

Who cares if McNair was tampering? Will he get fined? Lose a draft pick?

All I know is that we're drafting Bush. :D

[RocketManJosh]

The Texans are dead to me if they pass on Vince.

See ya

[nWo34Life]

The Texans are dead to me if they pass on Vince.

Enjoy being a Cowboys fan! :p :D

[percicles]

Enjoy being a Cowboys fan! :p :D

Or a San Antonio Saints Fan.

[Smokey]

KHOU should dump the Texans and show Vince's team. Can 610 dump the Texans?

:(

[swilkins]

The Texans are dead to me if they pass on Vince.

I guess if that happens, the IQ of the fans will increase and we'll give you full credit.

Thanks in advance.

[EddieWasSnubbed]

I don't believe this. Mainly because the pick is supposed to be Kubiak's decision. Kubiak hasn't had the time to scout either prospect, so there's no way Bush could have been given an answer. I call BS.

[percicles]

Like I said, only believe what is written by John McClain and not ESPN.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3589395.html


McNair: Bush pick not a lock
Texans owner says no guarantee made to USC coach


By JOHN MCCLAIN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

Owner Bob McNair denied an ESPN report Sunday that he told Southern California coach Pete Carroll that the Texans would select running back Reggie Bush if he left the Trojans after his junior year.

The report said that after University of Texas quarterback Vince Young's performance in the Rose Bowl, Carroll called McNair to get assurances that the owner would make Bush the first pick in the draft.

"Pete Carroll did call me, but he talked to me about Bush and never asked if we were going to take him, and if he had I wouldn't have told him that because we haven't even hired our coach," McNair said Sunday.

The Texans will hire Denver offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak as soon as the Broncos' season is over. Denver hosts Pittsburgh in the AFC Championship Game on Sunday.

"We don't know who we're going to draft right now," McNair said. "After we hire our coach, the evaluation process will still have a long way to go. We want to pick the player we feel will give us the best chance to win."

Bush's advisers had disclosed several weeks before the Rose Bowl that he would leave after his junior year.

The Texans had planned to take Bush, but when Young entered the draft, they were forced to re-evaluate.

[gucci888]

That settles that.

[thirdcoastTXpulse]

That settles that.

Well considering his options I doubt he would have said yea I assured him of being the number 1. So in reality we are back to square one which we will be until Carr's deal is dealt with and the draft arrives in April. Either way I'll be at Reliant come next year.

Nice try though. ;)

[Mr. Brightside]

Why can't I quit you, Vince Young?

[SamFisher]

What I love is this. Everybody who wants VY says that we need to replace carr. What about Leinart then? He is rated higher on most scouts boards as a QB. But since he did not go to madison or UT, he is ignored. Its obvious that people are biased towards Vince or we would hear Leinart talk.

How many scouts boards have you been reading? I wish I had access to NFL scout boards. I guess there is a secret website or something. Is it scoutboards.com? :(

[the futants]

Reminds me of when Rudy T promised Rashard Lewis he would pick him. So Rashard went pro instead of going to UH. Then Rudy T left him crying in the green room. ;)
precisely. i always thought that rudy guy was a total piece of crap. ;)

[KingCheetah]

Why can't I quit you, Vince Young?

You ain't going fish'n

[KingCheetah]

"We don't know who we're going to draft right now" ---McNair

[KAS13]

In all reality McNair has to say that. I believe ESPN's report that McNair told Pete that. Mortenson has been reporting all along that all his Texans insiders have said if Bush come out then that's who we're taking. The reason McNair has to deny that is because you can discuss a player who hasn't committed and that diminishes the picks trade value signifigantly.


For all the fans who want Young (I would choose him over Leinart but not Bush) look at Drew Brees. Give gim a game breaker and a good TE and you have a Pro Bowl QB. Reeves was pretty glowing in his review of Carr as well. I want people to look at Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Even the top 2 QB's in the league can't do anything if they don't have time to throw the football.

[swilkins]

If McNair told Carroll that he wasn't going to trade down or draft a qb, he would have been well within the rules.

There are ways to answer a question without breaking the rules.

[gucci888]

Well considering his options I doubt he would have said yea I assured him of being the number 1. So in reality we are back to square one which we will be until Carr's deal is dealt with and the draft arrives in April. Either way I'll be at Reliant come next year.

Nice try though. ;)

I love it. Mortensen comes out with another claim saying we are drafting Bush no matter what and everyone goes nuts claiming they knew it all along and saying the pro-VY posters are just in denial. Now for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, the Texans have completely shot down these allegations, and all the pro-Bush posters are saying that he's just saying that.

You're right, he should probably say that we don't know who we're picking considering his options, but some of us are choosing and picking which sources we want to listen to. One has always been a "source close to the Texans or Broncos" (whatever that means) and the other came straight from McNair or Casserly's mouth.

I agree that we are back to square one though.

[KAS13]

I love it. Mortensen comes out with another claim saying we are drafting Bush no matter what and everyone goes nuts claiming they knew it all along and saying the pro-VY posters are just in denial. Now for the 2nd time in 2 weeks, the Texans have completely shot down these allegations, and all the pro-Bush posters are saying that he's just saying that.

You're right, he should probably say that we don't know who we're picking considering his options, but some of us are choosing and picking which sources we want to listen to. One has always been a "source close to the Texans or Broncos" (whatever that means) and the other came straight from McNair or Casserly's mouth.

I agree that we are back to square one though.


I'd be willing to bet money we draft Bush. Do you honestly think McNair wants to hear all this backlash for the next 3 months by announcing we're taking bush? That way, all the pro Young people can talk trash, bash Bush and make him not want to come here. That would be great. McNair is doing exactly what he should be doing, not saying anything. I believe that he promised that to Carroll though. Pete is an upstanding guy and I doubt he would just make something like that up.

[The Cat]

I believe that he promised that to Carroll though. Pete is an upstanding guy and I doubt he would just make something like that up.

I'm sure Pete is. But would you mind showing me where Carroll is actually on record making that statement? As of now, it's just "anonymous sources", and there are plenty of other "anonymous sources" that have said in recent days that McNair won't pass up Young or that the Texans are leaning to Young. Pete Carroll is generally a class act, but that doesn't really have relevance until there's proof that the sources are accurate.

[Blatz]

Clayton didn't say the Texans ARE leaning towards Young he said the Texans MAY BE leaning.

It may not seem like a big difference to you but "are" and "may be" are completely different to me.

[msn]

It may not seem like a big difference to you but "are" and "may be" are completely different to me.
Huge. Especially when in the mid '90s we were debating the difference between "is" and "is". :p

[VesceySux]

This whole "McNair promised Carroll that Bush would be #1" thing is ridiculous. Everyone KNEW Reggie Bush was coming out... months ago. (Hello? "Bush Bowl"?) Reggie had nothing to gain and everything to lose by staying for his senior year. Do you honestly expect me to believe that if Bush didn't go #1, he would have stayed in school, forgoing millions of dollars and risking injury? Puh-lease. No one's that egotistical or stupid.

[KAS13]

I'm sure Pete is. But would you mind showing me where Carroll is actually on record making that statement? As of now, it's just "anonymous sources", and there are plenty of other "anonymous sources" that have said in recent days that McNair won't pass up Young or that the Texans are leaning to Young. Pete Carroll is generally a class act, but that doesn't really have relevance until there's proof that the sources are accurate.


I thought he was quoted as saying that in a newspaper. I haven't heard anyone (not even anonymous sources" saying we are leaning towards Young. I've heard we will look at him but never that we are leaning towards him. McNair seems pretty committed to Carr if you ask me. What happens if you draft Young and then Carr has a breakout season like Brees. You couldn't get good value for Rivers right now and you don't want to trade a proven QB to play a guy with potential. Bush is the better and safer pick.

I understand there are a ton of UT fans here but if Young went to UCLA and did exactly the same thing you wouldn't feel this way.

[KAS13]

This whole "McNair promised Carroll that Bush would be #1" thing is ridiculous. Everyone KNEW Reggie Bush was coming out... months ago. (Hello? "Bush Bowl"?) Reggie had nothing to gain and everything to lose by staying for his senior year. Do you honestly expect me to believe that if Bush didn't go #1, he would have stayed in school, forgoing millions of dollars and risking injury? Puh-lease. No one's that egotistical or stupid.

You mean like Matt Leinart did? The fact is that if Carroll was quoted (and he is standing behind his quote, which I don't know if he is) then I believe that. You have to admit it was very unusual that it took Reggie so long to make an announcement. In fact, it took so long that people starting thinkingh e may stay.

[Blatz]

I thought he was quoted as saying that in a newspaper. I haven't heard anyone (not even anonymous sources" saying we are leaning towards Young. I've heard we will look at him but never that we are leaning towards him...

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=clayton_john&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fname%3dclayton_john

Bush or Young: The more you hear out of Houston, the Texans may be leaning toward drafting Texas quarterback Vince Young instead of USC running back Reggie Bush. The thinking is that Young is too popular to pass up. He grew up within two miles of Reliant Stadium and is one of the most popular players to come out of Texas. Should the Texans draft him, they would play him behind David Carr for a year or two and give him a chance to develop as a quarterback. The Texans are hoping to get a chance to hire Broncos offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak within the next two weeks. He's the leading candidate for that job.

It doesn't say the Texans "are" just "may be" leaning.

[VesceySux]

You mean like Matt Leinart did?

Terrible, ridiculous analogy. Had Leinart come out, he would have gone #1 (with the Heisman and NC). Instead, Leinart chose to stay in school and remain a kid. I see no link at all between the 2 situations.

[IC2000]

How many scouts boards have you been reading? I wish I had access to NFL scout boards. I guess there is a secret website or something. Is it scoutboards.com? :(
typical way the VY supporters would refute that

[Cohen]

typical way the VY supporters would refute that


Since you did not respond to the reference request there is nothing to refute (other than the veracity of your claims).

Now I'm not saying that you haven't seen the scout boards or ratings, but if you cannot back it up don't try to deflect by blaming others for asking.

[gucci888]

I'd be willing to bet money we draft Bush. Do you honestly think McNair wants to hear all this backlash for the next 3 months by announcing we're taking bush? That way, all the pro Young people can talk trash, bash Bush and make him not want to come here. That would be great. McNair is doing exactly what he should be doing, not saying anything. I believe that he promised that to Carroll though. Pete is an upstanding guy and I doubt he would just make something like that up.

Find me an article where Pete Carroll is quoted saying that. Right now, it's just "USC sources" that told Mortensen. You're right, I don't think Carroll would make something up like that, but that doesn't mean "USC sources" wouldn't.

Not to be nitpicky, but McNair is saying things. Here's what he said, ""Pete Carroll did call me, but he talked to me about Bush and never asked if we were going to take him, and if he had I wouldn't have told him that because we haven't even hired our coach," McNair said Sunday."

and

""We don't know who we're going to draft right now," McNair said. "After we hire our coach, the evaluation process will still have a long way to go. We want to pick the player we feel will give us the best chance to win."

Some of pro-Bush posters are so quick to believe "sources close to the Broncos, Texans" and "USC sources," but when McNair comes out and says its not true, ya'll don't want to listen and just say he is lying. I love how some of ya'll are only believing quotes or articles that support your cause but can't seemed to be bothered by quotes from our GM and owner.

I understand that Casserly/McNair wouldn't come out and say who they are going to draft because of possible backlash. But if you really think they've completely made up their minds w/ no head coach in place and w/o letting him evaluate the players himself, then this whole debate is pointless.

[Blatz]

Some of the pro-young posters are doing the same thing so don't forget them.

[gucci888]

^ Very true, but not as much in my opinion. :cool:

[IC2000]

Find me an article where Pete Carroll is quoted saying that. Right now, it's just "USC sources" that told Mortensen. You're right, I don't think Carroll would make something up like that, but that doesn't mean "USC sources" wouldn't.

Not to be nitpicky, but McNair is saying things. Here's what he said, ""Pete Carroll did call me, but he talked to me about Bush and never asked if we were going to take him, and if he had I wouldn't have told him that because we haven't even hired our coach," McNair said Sunday."

and

""We don't know who we're going to draft right now," McNair said. "After we hire our coach, the evaluation process will still have a long way to go. We want to pick the player we feel will give us the best chance to win."

Some of pro-Bush posters are so quick to believe "sources close to the Broncos, Texans" and "USC sources," but when McNair comes out and says its not true, ya'll don't want to listen and just say he is lying. I love how some of ya'll are only believing quotes or articles that support your cause but can't seemed to be bothered by quotes from our GM and owner.

I understand that Casserly/McNair wouldn't come out and say who they are going to draft because of possible backlash. But if you really think they've completely made up their minds w/ no head coach in place and w/o letting him evaluate the players himself, then this whole debate is pointless.


The coach thing is BS, we know who the next coach is.

[Groogrux]

The coach thing is BS, we know who the next coach is.

That doesn't change the fact that Kubiak is worried about other things right now rather than starting the evaluation process of the Texans. He's got a little thing called the AFC Championship game to worry about.

[gucci888]

The coach thing is BS, we know who the next coach is.

He didn't say he didn't know who the coach will be, he just said he hasn't hired him yet. After the hiring, Kubiak and crew will do full evaluations.

And like RM95 said, Kubiak I'm sure has a lot of other things he needs to take care of.

[SamFisher]

typical way the VY supporters would refute that

By typical, do you mean calling your bullsh-t on stuff you can't back up?

Name one NFL team scout whose board you've seen.

Name one.

I dare you.

[RocketManJosh]

Not sure what it means if anything, but bodog.com has a bet on it where you can bet on who the first QB taken in the draft will be.

They have Leinart at -170 and VY at +130.

I think some of you guys might be interested in that +130.

[SamFisher]

Not sure what it means if anything, but bodog.com has a bet on it where you can bet on who the first QB taken in the draft will be.

They have Leinart at -170 and VY at +130.

I think some of you guys might be interested in that +130.

Ah yes, futures markets, Texas, and USC....something about this is very familiar....I can't place it....

[RocketManJosh]

Ah yes, futures markets, Texas, and USC....something about this is very familiar....I can't place it....

Exactly ... I bet on Texas to win the NC and made some good money on that. This is another good opportunity if you're pretty confident that Young is going to go first.

[Desert Scar]

...... The reason McNair has to deny that (could) that diminishes the picks trade value signifigantly.


This makes no sense. If they think Bush is way better than the rest and they for sure want him (think he is a better Barry Sanders) they have no reason to "run up" his trade because they will just take Bush.

..... Do you honestly think McNair wants to hear all this backlash for the next 3 months by announcing we're taking bush? That way, all the pro Young people can talk trash, bash Bush and make him not want to come here. That would be great. McNair is doing exactly what he should be doing, not saying anything. I believe that he promised that to Carroll though. Pete is an upstanding guy and I doubt he would just make something like that up.

The 1st part could make sense. If the Texans are locked into Bush the only reason for McNair to say what he did is to save face with VY supporters, that at least that they evaluated him before sticking with Bush.

This whole "McNair promised Carroll that Bush would be #1" thing is ridiculous. Everyone KNEW Reggie Bush was coming out... months ago. (Hello? "Bush Bowl"?) Reggie had nothing to gain and everything to lose by staying for his senior year. Do you honestly expect me to believe that if Bush didn't go #1, he would have stayed in school, forgoing millions of dollars and risking injury? Puh-lease. No one's that egotistical or stupid.

I think this is correct mostly. One it makes almost no sense for the Texans to "committ" to any player without evaluating them in person--VY, Bush, anyone. All they can say to any player/agent is they are leaning one way or other. The Texans have the 1st pick, they are in command, no need to committ in any form at this point.

Second, it makes even less sense for Bush or USC. Bush would take a monumental risk returning to SC without 3/5 of his OL, TE, and QB. If you thought Texas stacked the line, next year all sites would be on him with few safety valves. Huge injury risk and risk for a less impressive individual year because he has worse teammates, all the while the Heisman goes to someone like Brady Quinn. Much bigger risk than VY coming back this year or ML last year, and ML lost a lot of money and no National Championship just to get a free ballroom dancing class. There was NO WAY Reggie Bush was not turning pro. No way at all. Again it just doesn't make sense, to go back to school and risk all that because you might be in better position to go overall #1 next year when you are assured of going overall #1, #2 or #3, utterly ridiculus.

Further, I can see Carroll making a curtesey call for Reggie Bush, but I am sure he isn't trying to kick him out the door and really doesn't concern himself with ex-players draft position or contracts. Like he would push Bush out by saying yes please leave the Texans will take you #1. Not Carroll's place at all.

...I understand there are a ton of UT fans here but if Young went to UCLA and did exactly the same thing you wouldn't feel this way.

It wasn't just UT fans, basically everyone who saw the National Championship with a semi opened minded had to amazed by the best player on the field. ESPN guys, even Ronnie Lott (from SC), all pretty much saying VY was the best player they have seen in a long time and anyone would be a fool to pass him up with the #1 pick.

Basically the causal fan who saw mainly highlights of players thought Reggie Bush was the better football player--it lead to the Heisman, the Sayers comparisons, and the assumption Bush would go #1--which the Texans have. The causal fan was so far off on who was the better player it was ridiculus once they played on the same field, and now this (under the radar) player came out when it wasn't expected. Lots of assumptions overturned.

The Texans should explore all options. They should run all the relevant tests on Bush, VY, Leinart and others in the top 6 in person (Ferganson, Hawk, M. Williams). Once they have their man, they should determine the least cost possible to attain them (can the trade down and get him). VY has already risen to top 4 on every board when he was nowhere 1 week ago. Given no players have been evaluated like pro teams will do in person or in the combine--there is no way anyone should be overconfident right now, and the Texans should of course not committ to a course of action.

My personal option is the only way VY will not go #1 is if he has a sub-par arm and sub-par Wonderlic for a QB, or if Bush runs a 4.25 and other unseen tests results--but you are darn right the Texans are going to look at both of them.

My bet is when it is all said and done the athleticsm, size, accuracy, decision making and leadership wrapped into one VY will turn him into the 1st pick, but got to do all the tests first.

[Nick]

Anybody else read Justice's latest blog entry? Apparently, there's somebody in the Texans organization who is leaking all this information (most of it is outdated, as the refutations have been said), and Richie thinks he knows who it is.

Can you imagine what Houston sports would be like if this wasn't going on right now?

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2006/01/bob_mcnair_need.html

[IC2000]

By typical, do you mean calling your bullsh-t on stuff you can't back up?

Name one NFL team scout whose board you've seen.

Name one.

I dare you.

Totally ignore the Leinart thing though?

[SamFisher]

Totally ignore the Leinart thing though?

I'm not ignoring jack sh-t. In fact, I'm addressing it directly.

YOU said that Leinart is ahead of Young on "scouts boards"

In fact, here is your direct quote.

What about Leinart then? He is rated higher on most scouts boards as a QB.

Now, I'm asking you to prove it. Who are these "most scouts" whose boards you are accessing? Professional team scouts? CFL scouts? Mel Kiper Jr? Cub Scouts? Girl Scouts? Or just random goofs on the internet talking out of their asss such as yourself?

Where/how did you come by this information? Since you don't have an answer, it seems like you just made it up.

I can sit around and make up stupid things all day - did you know pro scouts think IC2000 hates dual threat quarterbacks because he got Herpes from Ron Mexico? - but since I can't prove it - what is the point?

[KAS13]

This makes no sense. If they think Bush is way better than the rest and they for sure want him (think he is a better Barry Sanders) they have no reason to "run up" his trade because they will just take Bush.



The 1st part could make sense. If the Texans are locked into Bush the only reason for McNair to say what he did is to save face with VY supporters, that at least that they evaluated him before sticking with Bush.



I think this is correct mostly. One it makes almost no sense for the Texans to "committ" to any player without evaluating them in person--VY, Bush, anyone. All they can say to any player/agent is they are leaning one way or other. The Texans have the 1st pick, they are in command, no need to committ in any form at this point.

Second, it makes even less sense for Bush or USC. Bush would take a monumental risk returning to SC without 3/5 of his OL, TE, and QB. If you thought Texas stacked the line, next year all sites would be on him with few safety valves. Huge injury risk and risk for a less impressive individual year because he has worse teammates, all the while the Heisman goes to someone like Brady Quinn. Much bigger risk than VY coming back this year or ML last year, and ML lost a lot of money and no National Championship just to get a free ballroom dancing class. There was NO WAY Reggie Bush was not turning pro. No way at all. Again it just doesn't make sense, to go back to school and risk all that because you might be in better position to go overall #1 next year when you are assured of going overall #1, #2 or #3, utterly ridiculus.

Further, I can see Carroll making a curtesey call for Reggie Bush, but I am sure he isn't trying to kick him out the door and really doesn't concern himself with ex-players draft position or contracts. Like he would push Bush out by saying yes please leave the Texans will take you #1. Not Carroll's place at all.



It wasn't just UT fans, basically everyone who saw the National Championship with a semi opened minded had to amazed by the best player on the field. ESPN guys, even Ronnie Lott (from SC), all pretty much saying VY was the best player they have seen in a long time and anyone would be a fool to pass him up with the #1 pick.

Basically the causal fan who saw mainly highlights of players thought Reggie Bush was the better football player--it lead to the Heisman, the Sayers comparisons, and the assumption Bush would go #1--which the Texans have. The causal fan was so far off on who was the better player it was ridiculus once they played on the same field, and now this (under the radar) player came out when it wasn't expected. Lots of assumptions overturned.

The Texans should explore all options. They should run all the relevant tests on Bush, VY, Leinart and others in the top 6 in person (Ferganson, Hawk, M. Williams). Once they have their man, they should determine the least cost possible to attain them (can the trade down and get him). VY has already risen to top 4 on every board when he was nowhere 1 week ago. Given no players have been evaluated like pro teams will do in person or in the combine--there is no way anyone should be overconfident right now, and the Texans should of course not committ to a course of action.

My personal option is the only way VY will not go #1 is if he has a sub-par arm and sub-par Wonderlic for a QB, or if Bush runs a 4.25 and other unseen tests results--but you are darn right the Texans are going to look at both of them.

My bet is when it is all said and done the athleticsm, size, accuracy, decision making and leadership wrapped into one VY will turn him into the 1st pick, but got to do all the tests first.


We don't know that the Texans think Bush is better then Barry Sanders though. In reality, we don't know anything except what is reported to us. Most reports I have heard have us taking Bush at #1. That doesn't make it a fact. Committing to one player diminishes the picks value (unless a team really wants that particular player). Let's use the Titans for example. If they want Young , know that we are taking bush (, they can make a lesser deal with NO (unless NO is completely sold on Young over Leinart which I don't think is the case) to move up a spot and take Young. However, if they want our #1, they have to pay #1 pick overall premium (look at what Eli got the Chargers) plus extra because the consensus is that the top three picks in this draft could be franchises players. That's what i meant by diminishing the picks value. Typically teams don't announce who they are taking #1 until about a week before the draft when they start negotiating.

I think every one who saw the Rose Bowl game was very impressed by Young. He went from a guy returning for his senior year to work on mechanics to a top 3 pick in the draft. He played arguably one of the best college games ever. Nobody will question that. The consensus I've heard and seen in 2006 mock drafts still has Bush at #1. I don't know where you got that info from ( anyone who passes on Young would be a fool) but Bush is still number 1 on Kiper's board, Mortenson is still reporting Houston taking bush at 1 and if you google "NFL mock draft 2006" you will see 95% of them have Bush at #1 for the Texans. Maybe Lott did say that but that certainly isn't the consensus. The consensus that i have heard is that both are thought to be superstars and whatever team gets them will be happy to have them (however, most feel Bush can make an immediate impact while Young will take a year or two).

I agree that the Texans will evaluate all their positions. One thing they have evaluated heavily recently is Carr. From what we've heard most everyone still thinks highly of him. Bush will dazzle at workouts (we all know that). Young will too. We already know how fast and athletic these guys are. I put no stock in the Wonderlic test at all. Akili Smith and plenty of others have been coached through it and received amazing scores. I have heard that Vince isn't very intelligent. That hasn't shown in the past year but I'm sure many of you have heard the same thing. i'm not saying it's true, I'm saying it's what I've heard. We know what Bush is in that regards. He had a scolarship offer to Stanford and a 3.9 GPA. I think it's a mistake to pass him up. I think VY ends up in Tennessee because he lets it be known (privately if possible) he doesn't want to play in NO (I've already heard that).

[underoverup]

Now, I'm asking you to prove it. Who are these "most scouts" whose boards you are accessing?

Where/how did you come by this information? Since you don't have an answer, it seems like you just made it up.

Me thinks he's hitting up the RealGM boards for his "insider info".

[KAS13]

I'm not ignoring jack sh-t. In fact, I'm addressing it directly.

YOU said that Leinart is ahead of Young on "scouts boards"

In fact, here is your direct quote.



Now, I'm asking you to prove it. Who are these "most scouts" whose boards you are accessing? Professional team scouts? CFL scouts? Mel Kiper Jr? Cub Scouts? Girl Scouts? Or just random goofs on the internet talking out of their asss such as yourself?

Where/how did you come by this information? Since you don't have an answer, it seems like you just made it up.

I can sit around and make up stupid things all day - did you know pro scouts think IC2000 hates dual threat quarterbacks because he got Herpes from Ron Mexico? - but since I can't prove it - what is the point?


IC2000 slept with Michael Vick? So that's where that new car and cell phone came from.

Anyways, I haven't followed you two's argument and I'm just going on this last post. If you look at Kiper's big board Bush is #1. If you listen to Chris mortenson, Bush is #1. If you google "NFL mock draft 2006" Bush is #1 on like 95% of the boards. Some of them are reputable and have real scouts, some are just people making up their own mock drafts but the consensus is Bush is #1 in Mock drafts and what I've heard.

Still can't believe IC2000 landed Vick. Update?

[IC2000]

I'm not ignoring jack sh-t. In fact, I'm addressing it directly.

YOU said that Leinart is ahead of Young on "scouts boards"

In fact, here is your direct quote.



Now, I'm asking you to prove it. Who are these "most scouts" whose boards you are accessing? Professional team scouts? CFL scouts? Mel Kiper Jr? Cub Scouts? Girl Scouts? Or just random goofs on the internet talking out of their asss such as yourself?

Where/how did you come by this information? Since you don't have an answer, it seems like you just made it up.

I can sit around and make up stupid things all day - did you know pro scouts think IC2000 hates dual threat quarterbacks because he got Herpes from Ron Mexico? - but since I can't prove it - what is the point?


Mock drafts, Kiper etc...

Anyways, ignore that if you want.

Since we need a QB apparently, why is nobody considering Leinart?

[KingCheetah]

I haven't followed you two's argument...


Really...

[reggietodd]

Since we need a QB apparently, why is nobody considering Leinart?

That is my question. Since Carr is so bad and needs to be replaced, then why aren't we looking at Leinart & Young? Why weren't we looking to get Leinart before Young declared? Why are we so sure the saints are taking Leinart and not Young? Are the Saint's scouts that much different from ours and from Tennesee's? If people really thought Carr was this horrible, they would have been calling for Leinart way before Young ever thought about declaring for the draft.

[swilkins]

That is my question. Since Carr is so bad and needs to be replaced, then why aren't we looking at Leinart & Young? Why weren't we looking to get Leinart before Young declared? Why are we so sure the saints are taking Leinart and not Young? Are the Saint's scouts that much different from ours and from Tennesee's? If people really thought Carr was this horrible, they would have been calling for Leinart way before Young ever thought about declaring for the draft.

I was wondering this myself.

I'm inclined to find out how many people went from Bush to bashing Carr for Young.

[KAS13]

Really...


Yeah, really. I understand the general context of what you are arguing about but in this case I read one post.

It can't work both ways. Ive been told that since I wasn't following an entire thread that I should signify that and respond to a certain post. That's what I do in this case and there's still complaining? Seriously, some people are so sensitive about this it's incredible.

[KAS13]

I was wondering this myself.

I'm inclined to find out how many people went from Bush to bashing Carr for Young.


Great point. I've said it 100 times here if VY wasn't from UT we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Nobody even mentioned Leinart as a possible candidate because:

a)he didn't go to UT and b) we wouldn't even be discussing hte position if it wasn't for Young entering the draft.

Even as people saw Manning and Brady fold when their lines didn't protect them all of a sudden Carr is terrible and Young's the answer.

[msn]

...Nobody even mentioned Leinart as a possible candidate...
Actually, one guy here was all about drafting Leinhart a few months back. He was bashing Carr mercilessly back then. I'm not sure what side of the coin the guy currently is on.

[Desert Scar]

Great point. I've said it 100 times here if VY wasn't from UT we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Nobody even mentioned Leinart as a possible candidate because:

a)he didn't go to UT and b) we wouldn't even be discussing hte position if it wasn't for Young entering the draft.
...


And this is completely false. Lott, Corso, Herbstreit, Keith Jackson, Fouts--mix of NFL players and long time watchers with no Longhorn connections and most picking/routing for SC, all pretty much saying VY is the most impressive player they have seen in a long time. If VY was an Aggie or Sooner or Bruin or Seminol or Hokie and had the stretch of 20 games like VY had (yes a couple bad ones mixed in there, even the best have bad days) with the triumphant display in the Rose Bowl versus Bush/Leinart and Co most Texans fans would say whoa doggy we better rethink that Bush pick.

IMO there is a substantial pro-Bush anti-VY sentiment just because VY is from UT. Some of the reverse is true as well, sure. But it certainly cuts both ways, a LOT of Texans fans absolutely hate the Longhorns. Others have seen Bush ESPN top 10 and just assumed these plays will translate to the pros and thus have had their hearts set on him for a long time and refuse to consider alternatives. In their mind Reggie Bush is already a Texan and thinking anything different is too troubling.

Mock drafts, Kiper etc...

Anyways, ignore that if you want.

Since we need a QB apparently, why is nobody considering Leinart?

VY went from nowhere on draft boards to top 7. Then top 4. Now top 3 on virtually all. Funny thing is the NFL season isn't even OVER and no individual evaluations/workouts on Bush or VY or Leinart have even been made to justify movement. Basically everyone is just guessing and the pre-Rose Bowl hype just lead to Bush being assumed as the #1 pick. Mock draft boards before individual evalutations are made are very poor educated guesses.

IF VY is indeed football stupid (3.9 GPA has almost no bearing on a RB) OR has a weak arm Bush or ML should go first. I have seen little to think VY is football stupid or has a hopeless arm.

I have said all along the Texans should thoroughly evaluate the top 6 players and evaluate all selection/trade options. I personally think in the end VY will prove to be the prospect with the highest potential. But I understand VY needs to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb. IMO those who are so invested in Reggie Bush have had a much greater problem accepting the possibility, pending workouts, that VY is the best prospect in the draft and applying the same fine toothed comb to Bush.

[Raven Lunatic]

Anybody else read Justice's latest blog entry? Apparently, there's somebody in the Texans organization who is leaking all this information (most of it is outdated, as the refutations have been said), and Richie thinks he knows who it is.

Can you imagine what Houston sports would be like if this wasn't going on right now?

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2006/01/bob_mcnair_need.html

It sounds like you're saying Casserly is the leaker. If that's so, type 1 for yes and 2 for no.

I've watched that movie dozens of times. I worked with Bob Woodward for 14 years. I never got so much as a hello from him. I think he was jealous of the fact that so many of the women in the newsroom had crushes on me.

Anyone else notice that his answer to this question had the number 14 in it, which contains the number '1'? I think Justice is trying to tell us that Casserly is the one leaking this info. I wonder what the reasoning for that could be, if true.

[KAS13]

Actually, one guy here was all about drafting Leinhart a few months back. He was bashing Carr mercilessly back then. I'm not sure what side of the coin the guy currently is on.


I wasn't around for that discussion. I'm for drafting Bush, not Leinart or Young. My opinion of Young has definitely changed after his performance in the Rose Bowl but I still wouldn't pick him. I thought Leinart would be a better pro then Vince (he still may there's no way to tell) but we don't need to draft a QB. Young played great, deserves his accolades, ect but he's not a need at the moment (especially being 2 years away).

[justtxyank]

It sounds like you're saying Casserly is the leaker. If that's so, type 1 for yes and 2 for no.

I've watched that movie dozens of times. I worked with Bob Woodward for 14 years. I never got so much as a hello from him. I think he was jealous of the fact that so many of the women in the newsroom had crushes on me.

Anyone else notice that his answer to this question had the number 14 in it, which contains the number '1'? I think Justice is trying to tell us that Casserly is the one leaking this info. I wonder what the reasoning for that could be, if true.

Haha. Richard is foolish though. Whoever is leaking this information isn't doing it solo. They have some sort of plan.

[KAS13]

And this is completely false. Lott, Corso, Herbstreit, Keith Jackson, Fouts--mix of NFL players and long time watchers with no Longhorn connections and most picking/routing for SC, all pretty much saying VY is the most impressive player they have seen in a long time. If VY was an Aggie or Sooner or Bruin or Seminol or Hokie and had the stretch of 20 games like VY had (yes a couple bad ones mixed in there, even the best have bad days) with the triumphant display in the Rose Bowl versus Bush/Leinart and Co most Texans fans would say whoa doggy we better rethink that Bush pick.

IMO there is a substantial pro-Bush anti-VY sentiment just because VY is from UT. Some of the reverse is true as well, sure. But it certainly cuts both ways, a LOT of Texans fans absolutely hate the Longhorns. Others have seen Bush ESPN top 10 and just assumed these plays will translate to the pros and thus have had their hearts set on him for a long time and refuse to consider alternatives. In their mind Reggie Bush is already a Texan and thinking anything different is too troubling.



VY went from nowhere on draft boards to top 7. Then top 4. Now top 3 on virtually all. Funny thing is the NFL season isn't even OVER and no individual evaluations/workouts on Bush or VY or Leinart have even been made to justify movement. Basically everyone is just guessing and the pre-Rose Bowl hype just lead to Bush being assumed as the #1 pick. Mock draft boards before individual evalutations are made are very poor educated guesses.

IF VY is indeed football stupid (3.9 GPA has almost no bearing on a RB) OR has a weak arm Bush or ML should go first. I have seen little to think VY is football stupid or has a hopeless arm.

I have said all along the Texans should thoroughly evaluate the top 6 players and evaluate all selection/trade options. I personally think in the end VY will prove to be the prospect with the highest potential. But I understand VY needs to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb. IMO those who are so invested in Reggie Bush have had a much greater problem accepting the possibility, pending workouts, that VY is the best prospect in the draft and applying the same fine toothed comb to Bush.


You mean the same people who were saying Bush was the best running back ever up until the Rose Bowl? So basically we can chalk these guys opinions up to garbage right. They watch Bush have a few amazing games (Frenso especially) and some are saying he'd be the third best running back in the NFL right now behind LT and Alexander and then VY puts on a performance for the ages and now he's the best prospect ever? These are the same guys who annoited Clarett the next superstar after his game too. They flip flop all the time. If they really said what you are saying about Young then their credibility is shot right now.

I realize that it's coming from both ways here. There's a much stronger Young sentiment then Bush though (here). My question to a lot of people is if they really want Young because it makes the Texans better or they want him because he brought UT a National Championship and has the chance to be a great player and is a home grown kid. There are a lot of factors here that you have to look at.

A smart kid like Bush has a huge bearing on his position (being that he's already so naturally gifted). We already know that he picks up blitzes well and can play 4 positions on the field. USC didn't exactly have a basic offense. That means the kid can read a playbook and pick up adjustments in game. All I know is what i heard about Vince and so I'll leave it at that. I don't know if it's true or not.

Tons of players shoot up draft boards after huge games of big time workouts. Everyone knows that. Young wasn't even on a board because he had said he was returning to school. Bush leapfrogged Leinart towards the end of the season. When it's all said and done, I think all three will grade out as great prospects. I think Bush will be the best and I certainly think he is the best choice for the texans. Is your love for Young so strong that you are honestly willing to get rid of carr for nothing? What if Young doesn't pan out?

[underoverup]

It's so silly that people against Vince are throwing out this "oh you want him on the Texans because he went to UT". That is nonsense. If Adrian Peterson were coming out instead of Young I guarantee everyone would be calling for AP over Bush.

It's not what school they're from, it's their ability and what they bring to the team.

[Desert Scar]

You mean the same people who were saying Bush was the best running back ever up until the Rose Bowl? So basically we can chalk these guys opinions up to garbage right. They watch Bush have a few amazing games (Frenso especially) and some are saying he'd be the third best running back in the NFL right now behind LT and Alexander and then VY puts on a performance for the ages and now he's the best prospect ever? These are the same guys who annoited Clarett the next superstar after his game too. They flip flop all the time. If they really said what you are saying about Young then their credibility is shot right now.

Yes I agree to take it with a grain of salt. But atleast their opinion of VY was shaped about 60 minutes of football at the highest level non-Pro level in the most pressured of situations rather than the top 10 highlight plays mostly accumulated versus hopelessless overmatched mid-major college athletes. When guys like Ronnie Lott and Marcus Allen (SC alums) are saying VY is at a whole another level and owning the a field that includes other great players like Bush and Leinart that is not easy to dismiss.

...My question to a lot of people is if they really want Young because it makes the Texans better or they want him because he brought UT a National Championship and has the chance to be a great player and is a home grown kid. There are a lot of factors here that you have to look at.


I think most people who want the Texans to draft VY think VY could be THE most dominant player in pro football in 3 years and don't want to miss out. Not that he will be, but he certainly could be, and you don't miss a chance like that. I think whether he played for UT or anyone else had that guy did what he did people would be saying this. It is not a big stretch to say VY put on the most dominant stretch of college football that had been seen in the kind of atmosphere. That is not speculation and extrapolation from a few plays, that was from observation of every snap. That is why I brought up all the comments from people w/o UT affiliation, and even those that I am sure would have love to say Bush/Leinart were better but just couldn't with a strait face.

...A smart kid like Bush has a huge bearing on his position (being that he's already so naturally gifted). We already know that he picks up blitzes well and can play 4 positions on the field. USC didn't exactly have a basic offense. That means the kid can read a playbook and pick up adjustments in game. All I know is what i heard about Vince and so I'll leave it at that. I don't know if it's true or not.

Intelligence is least important for an RB than any other offensive position. LT scored a 13 on the Wonderlic but doesn't preclude him from doing it all as an RB. It doesn't hurt if Bush is smart on an IQ test, but hardly that relevant, football intelligence is a lot more important. Lots of players performed great in SC system--Bush, Jarrett, LenDale, I think the one who needed full command of it was Leinart. Bush took a break about every other play anyway.

I don't know about VY's general IQ or academic performance, but his football intelligence seems fine from everything I have seen on the field. But the Texans can evaluate this a lot better than me.


Tons of players shoot up draft boards after huge games of big time workouts. Everyone knows that. Young wasn't even on a board because he had said he was returning to school. Bush leapfrogged Leinart towards the end of the season. When it's all said and done, I think all three will grade out as great prospects. I think Bush will be the best and I certainly think he is the best choice for the texans. Is your love for Young so strong that you are honestly willing to get rid of carr for nothing? What if Young doesn't pan out?

We really should forget need. If you think Bush is the next B. Sanders you don't not draft that guy because you have Davis as an RB plus an all pro young return man (Mathis). If VY is the next Elway you don't not draft him because you have one David Carr. You take your Elway-like prospect and trade your Carr for what you can (late 1st) if that is what it comes to.

So (the Texans) make your judgement based on who will be the better, more dominant, pro football player. From the field, in top level competition, it was clear VY was the most special player out there. It was by a mile. When teams got faster (UT/SC) VY game translated and was just as dominant as ever, Bush was much less of a factor once the defensive speed got better. Given the worst NFL defenses are much faster than UTs defense, it doesn't look to be Bush will be this dominant, match-up killer, most think he will be. Sure, go ahead and do all evaluations you can in person to see how much of their special qualities will translate to the pros. But like I said it would take really unimpressive workouts of VY and really impressive workouts of Bush to convince me Bush has a higher ceiling as a pro. Since we do know VY kicked Bush's and every other Trojan's ass on the field right now the onus should be on Bush to prove in workouts he is such a phenom you can pass on a potential franchise QB (VY, or perhaps Leinart for that matter).

[KAS13]

It's so silly that people against Vince are throwing out this "oh you want him on the Texans because he went to UT". That is nonsense. If Adrian Peterson were coming out instead of Young I guarantee everyone would be calling for AP over Bush.

It's not what school they're from, it's their ability and what they bring to the team.


Actually, it's not silly because it holds truth. That's the reason a lot of people want Young here.

If Adrian Peterson was coming out along with Bush there would be an argument to be made. However, if Young and Peterson were coming out together then people would still be screaming for Young. It's just funny how before Young had that game everyone was saying he was a good QB who needed to return to school and fine tune his mechanics before going pro and now you want to pick him #1 overall. It's not like he played against a great defense either. He had an amazing game and is probably going to be a great player but 1 game changes people's opinion of a player and a team's need that quickly.

Hey, I understand why people are leery of Carr. He hasn't performed well. Many analysts say that even Peyton Manning couldn't have made the playoffs here. You're ready to scrap this guy and take a chance on another QB (one thath as questions marks around him as well and can't help us immediately). I'd rather see what Carr can do when we put Bush, a couple OL, a receiving TE and a good #2 around him.

[DVauthrin]

Actually, it's not silly because it holds truth. That's the reason a lot of people want Young here.

If Adrian Peterson was coming out along with Bush there would be an argument to be made. However, if Young and Peterson were coming out together then people would still be screaming for Young. It's just funny how before Young had that game everyone was saying he was a good QB who needed to return to school and fine tune his mechanics before going pro and now you want to pick him #1 overall. It's not like he played against a great defense either. He had an amazing game and is probably going to be a great player but 1 game changes people's opinion of a player and a team's need that quickly.

Hey, I understand why people are leery of Carr. He hasn't performed well. Many analysts say that even Peyton Manning couldn't have made the playoffs here. You're ready to scrap this guy and take a chance on another QB (one thath as questions marks around him as well and can't help us immediately). I'd rather see what Carr can do when we put Bush, a couple OL, a receiving TE and a good #2 around him.

And a lot of us would look like to see a bigger(6'5 230 ish), better passing version of Michael Vick leading the Texans huddle. The fact that he is from Houston/UT is the icing on the cake. This is not a decision made on one game for the vast majority of us. I argued that Vince should have won the Heisman and I have watched him play for 3 years now. He flat out is the best college football player in the country. You saw that in California. He has poise in the pocket beyond his years. He led my Horns to numerous 2nd half comebacks(Elway like magic) and he is lethal passing/running. Not to mention that, look at his willingness to do film study and learn defensive coverages. The winning TD to Limas in Columbus was due to his film study, and he frequently took what USC gave him in the Rose Bowl. In fact, go rewatch the last play. He does not look to run until he goes through his progressions. People say USC should have known he would run it. The truth is he was thinking pass first, and ran when everyone was covered.

Also, about his running. He is an intelligent scrambler. He always looks for the sidelines, and takes as few straight on hard shots as possible. He also has ankles of steel, as player after player repeatedly went for his legs and came up empty every game.

[Desert Scar]

Actually, it's not silly because it holds truth. That's the reason a lot of people want Young here.

If Adrian Peterson was coming out along with Bush there would be an argument to be made. However, if Young and Peterson were coming out together then people would still be screaming for Young. It's just funny how before Young had that game everyone was saying he was a good QB who needed to return to school and fine tune his mechanics before going pro and now you want to pick him #1 overall. It's not like he played against a great defense either. He had an amazing game and is probably going to be a great player but 1 game changes people's opinion of a player and a team's need that quickly.
.

Your argument most of the people want VY because he is from Texas is silly. VY is a potential franchise QB. Not potentially an adequate QB, potential game changing franchise QB. You don't miss on one because there is great RB prospect available, even if you think that RB might be one of the best in the league. Had VY did what he did for UCLA, A&M, OU, VTech, for anyone, most Texan fans would be intruiged by him. Being also a Cowboy and Longhorn fan never stopped me from routing for Roy W as a Cowboy and supporting his draft selection, because I knew the guy was an animal defensively. I knew it all too well going into the draft.

Also, VY didn't play against an excellent performing defense, true, but SC has lots of 1st day draft picks in the secondary and DL. They were quality athletes (who underperformed as a team, yes) who he made look like non-athletes.

....He had an amazing game and is probably going to be a great player .....

Not just an amazing game, the most impressive display of running, passing, and leadership that tons of nuetral observers have ever seen. Also, it isn't like he didn't have the best QB passing rating in the country going into the game and wasn't the key cog on the nations highest scoring offense. It isn't like VY hadn't been a great player for 20+ games. I think the NT game just connected the dots for a lot of folks who then saw what kind of unique athlete, passer and leader VY was. They were like, oh we missed it badly thinking Reggie Bush was the best and most talented college football player. After seeing the last two Heisman winners and VY on the same field they were like now we know better, crystal clear really.

[tigermission1]

Sad. But very true. Sux for VY fans, but it ain't happening.

On the other hand, that should spike the interest of Aggie and Tech fans in the Texans :D (plenty of them around, believe me)

[CriscoKidd]

And a lot of us would look like to see a bigger(6'5 230 ish), better passing version of Michael Vick leading the Texans huddle.

I wish people would stop comparing him to Vick. Yes, he's a scrambling qb, but he doesn't have Vick's speed or elusiveness.

Maybe in the mold of McNabb, Daunte, Elway, Young, which is damn good as far as scrambling goes. But Vick? Even Randall Cunningham? No.

[DVauthrin]

I wish people would stop comparing him to Vick. Yes, he's a scrambling qb, but he doesn't have Vick's speed or elusiveness.

Maybe in the mold of McNabb, Daunte, Elway, Young, which is damn good as far as scrambling goes. But Vick? Even Randall Cunningham? No.

The comparison is valid. He is slightly slower(darn that dreaded 4.4 forty time) but is just as elusive. What do you call sliding out of ankle tackles like they are nothing, all the jukes/fakes/etc? He definitely has Vick's elusiveness, just slower. I could even argue he is harder to bring down than Vick(ie more elusive).

Now, I will say that Vick is better than Vince in space in regards to running, but as far as total elusiveness, I've seen few qb's as hard to tackle period as Vince. People try grabbing his ankles and he just brushes them off.

[SamFisher]

Mock drafts, Kiper etc...

Anyways, ignore that if you want.


Ah yes, Mel Kiper, he of the distinguished NFL resume, having never worked for the league or any team in any capacity, ever. That's code for "a bunch of guys on the internet" such as yourself - and ZERO pro scouts boards, as you do not have access to them and are talking out your ass.


Since we need a QB apparently, why is nobody considering Leinart?

because young is a better quarterback, and, post-rose bowl, was the best player in the country last season. He was better in the Rose Bowl, and better during the course of the season than Leinart.

That's why he was the starting QB on the all american teams, won the Maxwell and D-OBrien awards, finished ahead of Leinart in Heisman voting...etc.

Oh yeah, he's also a better fit for Houston than Leinart in a difffernent sense, which has been covered exhaustively.

[Baqui99]

Actually, it's not silly because it holds truth. That's the reason a lot of people want Young here.

If Adrian Peterson was coming out along with Bush there would be an argument to be made. However, if Young and Peterson were coming out together then people would still be screaming for Young. It's just funny how before Young had that game everyone was saying he was a good QB who needed to return to school and fine tune his mechanics before going pro and now you want to pick him #1 overall. It's not like he played against a great defense either. He had an amazing game and is probably going to be a great player but 1 game changes people's opinion of a player and a team's need that quickly.


Not sure how AD factors into this. With his running style, he won't last 3 years in the NFL. He is an upright runner which is why he's always getting injured.

[KAS13]

Yes I agree to take it with a grain of salt. But atleast their opinion of VY was shaped about 60 minutes of football at the highest level non-Pro level in the most pressured of situations rather than the top 10 highlight plays mostly accumulated versus hopelessless overmatched mid-major college athletes. When guys like Ronnie Lott and Marcus Allen (SC alums) are saying VY is at a whole another level and owning the a field that includes other great players like Bush and Leinart that is not easy to dismiss.



I think most people who want the Texans to draft VY think VY could be THE most dominant player in pro football in 3 years and don't want to miss out. Not that he will be, but he certainly could be, and you don't miss a chance like that. I think whether he played for UT or anyone else had that guy did what he did people would be saying this. It is not a big stretch to say VY put on the most dominant stretch of college football that had been seen in the kind of atmosphere. That is not speculation and extrapolation from a few plays, that was from observation of every snap. That is why I brought up all the comments from people w/o UT affiliation, and even those that I am sure would have love to say Bush/Leinart were better but just couldn't with a strait face.



Intelligence is least important for an RB than any other offensive position. LT scored a 13 on the Wonderlic but doesn't preclude him from doing it all as an RB. It doesn't hurt if Bush is smart on an IQ test, but hardly that relevant, football intelligence is a lot more important. Lots of players performed great in SC system--Bush, Jarrett, LenDale, I think the one who needed full command of it was Leinart. Bush took a break about every other play anyway.

I don't know about VY's general IQ or academic performance, but his football intelligence seems fine from everything I have seen on the field. But the Texans can evaluate this a lot better than me.



We really should forget need. If you think Bush is the next B. Sanders you don't not draft that guy because you have Davis as an RB plus an all pro young return man (Mathis). If VY is the next Elway you don't not draft him because you have one David Carr. You take your Elway-like prospect and trade your Carr for what you can (late 1st) if that is what it comes to.

So (the Texans) make your judgement based on who will be the better, more dominant, pro football player. From the field, in top level competition, it was clear VY was the most special player out there. It was by a mile. When teams got faster (UT/SC) VY game translated and was just as dominant as ever, Bush was much less of a factor once the defensive speed got better. Given the worst NFL defenses are much faster than UTs defense, it doesn't look to be Bush will be this dominant, match-up killer, most think he will be. Sure, go ahead and do all evaluations you can in person to see how much of their special qualities will translate to the pros. But like I said it would take really unimpressive workouts of VY and really impressive workouts of Bush to convince me Bush has a higher ceiling as a pro. Since we do know VY kicked Bush's and every other Trojan's ass on the field right now the onus should be on Bush to prove in workouts he is such a phenom you can pass on a potential franchise QB (VY, or perhaps Leinart for that matter).


So many guys have said so many things about Bush and Young that I'm just going to say let's forget about that aspect. It's pointless to go back and forth about he said she said stuff.

I don't think there's any chance of Vince being the most dominant player in football in three years and that's why I think a lot of people's judgement is clouded. Anyone who knows football knows Vince will sit out at least a season (maybe two) adjusting to the pro game. He hasn't played in a pro style offense , has a lot to learn and whoever drafts him isn't going ot throw him to the wolves. Let's just say he's starting by his second season. I just don't think you can expect him to set the world on fire. QB's take time to develop , everyone knows that. I better time frame for Vince being great (which we still have to consider an if) is 4 years. That's fair. It could go under a year and be 3 or even over and be 5 you just never know. Reggie can give you an immediate impact. He's going to help us right now. I like DD but he's injury proned and isn't a gamebreaker. Bush can help our passing game and be that game breaker in the backfield that makes people think twice about blitzing Carr on every down. You come with a full blitz and we call a draw, it's 6. I haven't seen a player like Reggie since Barry (who happens to be my favorite player of all time). The move so similar. If you watch them both you'll see. Plus, LT and Reggie are going to work full time together. You have to love that. I'm not saying that McNair isn't a good mentor for Young but I'll take LT instead.

Intelligence always makes a difference to me. LT may have scored a 13, Akili Smith got liek a 38. I already said I don't put stock in that test. From listening to both players (I've also met Vince on several occasions) Bush sounds a lot more intelligent. Couple that with what I've heard from people from UT and that's where i got the intelligence factor. However, it hasn't effected him on the field yet and maybe it never will. It may not even be true, he just may not be well spoken.

I agree with you on drafting the guy you think is the best to a certain extent. I'm not rerady to give up on Carr yet and I'm more sold on Bush being the next LT , Barry or Faulk then I am Young the next Elway. All the runnning QB's have been injured and that's something i take into consideration as well. People always say "Bush wasn't on the field that much". What? He played receiver, running back, kick returner and punt returner. He has to rest sometime. Let's not forget that he had another player in the backfield with him that will also be a #1 pick.

Young kicked USC's defense all over the field not Bush or anyone else. He played an outstanding second half and pulled it out on 4th and 5. However, if he doesn't make that play are we even talking about this right now. Bush still gave USC over 230 total yds and people say he had an off game. If we draft him I hope those off days come every Sunday. Say Vince scrambles on that last possesion has to throw and it gets picked. Say that USC safety doesn't drop the sure int. Say the replay equipment isn't broken and they rule Young down on that pitch. Say Bush doesn't make that dumb pitch at the beginning of the game. Say Lendale White can gain a yard on 4th or USC does the smart thing and punts. I know that's a ton of what if's but they are all possible (in fact all happened except Vince throwing an INT on the last possession). I just think the UT factor comes into play here because I never saw anyone want Leinart before (and justifiably because we don't need him) and he is viewed as a franchise QB

[KAS13]

The comparison is valid. He is slightly slower(darn that dreaded 4.4 forty time) but is just as elusive. What do you call sliding out of ankle tackles like they are nothing, all the jukes/fakes/etc? He definitely has Vick's elusiveness, just slower. I could even argue he is harder to bring down than Vick(ie more elusive).

Now, I will say that Vick is better than Vince in space in regards to running, but as far as total elusiveness, I've seen few qb's as hard to tackle period as Vince. People try grabbing his ankles and he just brushes them off.


Actually, Vince runs nothing like Vick. Vick is smaller, quicker and faster. Vince is elusive but runs straight up and is going to get pounded in the pros (Vick does too)

[KAS13]

Not sure how AD factors into this. With his running style, he won't last 3 years in the NFL. He is an upright runner which is why he's always getting injured.


I didn't bring him up. Eddie George was an upright runner and he had a pretty great career. Someone said if AP was coming out they would want him over Bush and I said a point could be made for that but we're talking about two different positions.

You do realize Vince runs more upright then Peterson and is nowhere near as elusive

[KAS13]

Ah yes, Mel Kiper, he of the distinguished NFL resume, having never worked for the league or any team in any capacity, ever. That's code for "a bunch of guys on the internet" such as yourself - and ZERO pro scouts boards, as you do not have access to them and are talking out your ass.



because young is a better quarterback, and, post-rose bowl, was the best player in the country last season. He was better in the Rose Bowl, and better during the course of the season than Leinart.

That's why he was the starting QB on the all american teams, won the Maxwell and D-OBrien awards, finished ahead of Leinart in Heisman voting...etc.

Oh yeah, he's also a better fit for Houston than Leinart in a difffernent sense, which has been covered exhaustively.


Kiper has just as much credibility as a lot of the other people who have been named as Young supporters. Let's not start analyzing scouts and analysts now.


Young is a better fit for Houston right now because he's home grown and his upside is higher then Leinart. If I was picking, I would choose Young as well. That being said, you can't say for sure Young is the better of the two. You can say he was this year but nobody can predict who will be a better pro. Leinart's accomplishments and talent seem to have just been completely discarded amongst all the Bush and Young hype. There's a chance that after we take Bush (that's who I think we're picking so I'll stick with it) No takes Leinart over Young. Does that make him a better prospect then? The answer is no, but everyone is entitled to an opinion and some people don't want to accept that.

Look, we have fans saying they won't ever root for the Texans again if they don't draft Young. Good riddance to those fans (and I say that even if we were to pick Young because you're not a Texan fan but rather a Young fan).

[Raven Lunatic]

I just think the UT factor comes into play here because I never saw anyone want Leinart before (and justifiably because we don't need him) and he is viewed as a franchise QB

I think the question on Leinart is a valid one. While I'm sure there is more than a few around here that mainly want Young because of the UT connection, I think there are valid reasons why logical thinking people would like to have Young but are not interested in Leinart.

Mostly, it is because Carr and Leinart have similar skill sets. Carr is decently athletic, but doesn't really run well in the sense that he is a running QB. When he is on the move, he can be effective but he is at his most effective when he is in the pocket and has time to make his reads. Carr, when he has time, is pretty accurate and has a strong arm. Now his progression reading and defensive reading leave something to be desired, but I don't remember that being a knock on him out of college, so I think there is every bit of reason to imagine that Leinart won't be that much better than Carr on this Texans team.

Young, on the other hand, brings an entirely different dimension to that QB position that we haven't seen before as Texans fans. He can destroy teams with his legs. If the pocket breaks down, instead of running towards the sideline, potentially making ill-advised passes all the way across the field or just running out of bounds behind the scrimmage line rather than throwing it away, you will see Vince break free, break tackles potentially, and make plays without ever letting go of the ball.

I think that is a valid viewpoint, whether you agree with it or not, and not necessarily biased from UT affiliations. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with either Bush or VY, but I lean towards Young for the reasons I gave above. I think he can be a gamebreaker, and one that touches the ball every offensive play, at that. I would hate to pass up on that.

[KAS13]

And a lot of us would look like to see a bigger(6'5 230 ish), better passing version of Michael Vick leading the Texans huddle. The fact that he is from Houston/UT is the icing on the cake. This is not a decision made on one game for the vast majority of us. I argued that Vince should have won the Heisman and I have watched him play for 3 years now. He flat out is the best college football player in the country. You saw that in California. He has poise in the pocket beyond his years. He led my Horns to numerous 2nd half comebacks(Elway like magic) and he is lethal passing/running. Not to mention that, look at his willingness to do film study and learn defensive coverages. The winning TD to Limas in Columbus was due to his film study, and he frequently took what USC gave him in the Rose Bowl. In fact, go rewatch the last play. He does not look to run until he goes through his progressions. People say USC should have known he would run it. The truth is he was thinking pass first, and ran when everyone was covered.

Also, about his running. He is an intelligent scrambler. He always looks for the sidelines, and takes as few straight on hard shots as possible. He also has ankles of steel, as player after player repeatedly went for his legs and came up empty every game.


I'm not arguing that Young has the potential to be a great player and was a great college player. However, read your post again and i think you may be over doing it bro "ankles of steel" , lol, dude he's not superman.

[KAS13]

I think the question on Leinart is a valid one. While I'm sure there is more than a few around here that mainly want Young because of the UT connection, I think there are valid reasons why logical thinking people would like to have Young but are not interested in Leinart.

Mostly, it is because Carr and Leinart have similar skill sets. Carr is decently athletic, but doesn't really run well in the sense that he is a running QB. When he is on the move, he can be effective but he is at his most effective when he is in the pocket and has time to make his reads. Carr, when he has time, is pretty accurate and has a strong arm. Now his progression reading and defensive reading leave something to be desired, but I don't remember that being a knock on him out of college, so I think there is every bit of reason to imagine that Leinart won't be that much better than Carr on this Texans team.

Young, on the other hand, brings an entirely different dimension to that QB position that we haven't seen before as Texans fans. He can destroy teams with his legs. If the pocket breaks down, instead of running towards the sideline, potentially making ill-advised passes all the way across the field or just running out of bounds behind the scrimmage line rather than throwing it away, you will see Vince break free, break tackles potentially, and make plays without ever letting go of the ball.

I think that is a valid viewpoint, whether you agree with it or not, and not necessarily biased from UT affiliations. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with either Bush or VY, but I lean towards Young for the reasons I gave above. I think he can be a gamebreaker, and one that touches the ball every offensive play, at that. I would hate to pass up on that.



I don't think people give Carr enough credit for his athleticism. Since we both agree he has the skills to be a good to great QB I'm not ready to give up on him. I'd rather give him some weapons and an ol and see what he can do. Can you imagine splitting Bush and Johnson out wide. Who do you double? The answer is one of them will be wide open.

I agree with everything else here except i favor Bush over Young. I won't hate the Texans like some have said if we pick Young, I'll hope he's as great as so many think he is. I just personally think Bush is the much safer and better pick for our team.

[gucci888]

I'm not arguing that Young has the potential to be a great player and was a great college player. However, read your post again and i think you may be over doing it bro "ankles of steel" , lol, dude he's not superman.

You sure about that? :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/enhumanoids/0109_mid.jpg

[Raven Lunatic]

I don't think people give Carr enough credit for his athleticism. Since we both agree he has the skills to be a good to great QB I'm not ready to give up on him. I'd rather give him some weapons and an ol and see what he can do. Can you imagine splitting Bush and Johnson out wide. Who do you double? The answer is one of them will be wide open.

I agree with everything else here except i favor Bush over Young. I won't hate the Texans like some have said if we pick Young, I'll hope he's as great as so many think he is. I just personally think Bush is the much safer and better pick for our team.

I agree with all of this. With the right offensive coordinator, Bush could do some amazing things. The only concern I have for him is the between the tackles stuff. I don't worry about durability like some or on whether or not he gets enough touches. But if he really is limited to breaking off runs to the outside, I don't think he will be an elite back. But the guy packs more of a wallop than people realize. I think he has a unfounded rep as not being a strong RB because he is so fast and elusive, but I imagine he will do fine taking hits.

[DVauthrin]

I'm not arguing that Young has the potential to be a great player and was a great college player. However, read your post again and i think you may be over doing it bro "ankles of steel" , lol, dude he's not superman.

It's an expression, calm down. Guys continually in college tried to grab his legs to bring him down and he either slid away, or stayed upright to still have a chance to make a play downfield. He did it quite frequently in the 2005 Rose Bowl vs Michigan, and other games. He has an incredibly strong lower body. That is one of the things that makes him so elusive.

[gucci888]

I agree with all of this. With the right offensive coordinator, Bush could do some amazing things. The only concern I have for him is the between the tackles stuff. I don't worry about durability like some or on whether or not he gets enough touches. But if he really is limited to breaking off runs to the outside, I don't think he will be an elite back. But the guy packs more of a wallop than people realize. I think he has a unfounded rep as not being a strong RB because he is so fast and elusive, but I imagine he will do fine taking hits.

Agreed. I've said all along that I'm not really worried about his size or durability, plenty of backs his size have made it in this league.

But from day one, I've been worried about his ability (or willingness) to run between the tackles. The Rose Bowl game was a pretty good example of his running style, he almost exclusively cuts it outside on every single run. This is a good move because Bush is usually the fastest person on the field, but on the Texas D showed that by cutting off the sidelines, you are taking away his biggest asset. How many times did Reggie run out of bounds or get tackled for no gain or loss near the sideline?

Like I said, Bush did the smart thing by outrunning the defenders to the sideline, but this luxury won't be there in the NFL where you MUST run between the tackles and where LBs and some DEs can beat you to the sideline no problem.

[Desert Scar]

Could Vince Young go No. 1?By Mel Kiper Jr.
Special to ESPN Insider

Young is flying high right now. He has more momentum than any prospect I can remember in a long time. He has more momentum right now than Reggie Bush.

Right now it is a three-horse race to see who is going to be the first pick in the draft between Young, Leinart and Bush. Nothing is clear cut. The Texans have a huge roster bonus they owe David Carr on March 1. They could let Carr move on or trade him and draft Young. There are a lot of things the Texans are going to determine about how the early portion of the draft goes.

....Remember, he can't go to an all-star game because juniors can't play in them. Young doesn't have to work out at the combine. He can show up for the medical and interviews, but doesn't have to throw the ball. He can wait until an individual workout and throw. You may only see one day of Vince Young workouts between now and April 29. He did enough on the field in the Rose Bowl to say, "You saw me, now make the decision as to whether I am good enough."

Right now Vince Young is flying as high as high as any prospect I can remember at this stage of the process, outside of maybe John Elway.

What are the negatives about Vince Young?
He has an unorthodox delivery. You don't know if he can drop back with a five- or seven-step drop, plant his foot and throw the ball because Young doesn't have to do that at Texas. He has all day to throw and when he is pressured, he can slide side to side. With Leinart we know about his drop-back passing skills, but we're not sure if Young can be precise, accurate and make the right reads and decisions.

With that said, he has a quick release and stronger arm than Leinart. He's the next Michael Vick running with the football. His decision-making improved greatly this year and I thought he made only one questionable throw in the Rose Bowl.

Any questions that were out there about Young have been put on the back burner because he was so spectacular against USC. He was calm, cool and poised.

Assuming he turns pro, where was Vince Young in the draft process before the Rose Bowl and where is he now?
Before the game, Young would have been anywhere from third to seventh and now he is possibly No. 1. If Young comes out, he will now be one of the top three picks, more likely No. 2 and maybe the first pick in the draft.



Bush, Leinart projected in top twoBy Mel Kiper Jr.
Special to ESPN Insider


Here's my first-round projection for the 2006 NFL draft. I put this list together by taking a look at the general area where each player should go, then placing the player on a team where he filled one of that particular team's top three needs.

In this projection, there are 17 underclassmen in the first round, with Reggie Bush and Vince Young leading the way as the first and third picks of the draft. This is my first projection, but it won't be my last of this season. I will submit another first-round projection after the Senior Bowl, followed by one after the NFL Combine.



Mel Kiper is pretty clear he doesn't know where VY will go yet. Could be #1, 2 or 3. Just educated guesses at this point, have to wait for the individual evaluations.

Since VY was the best player on the field and plays the most important position, like I said I think when it is all said and done his workouts (arm)/tests (Wonderlic, other) have to be very unimpressive not for him to be #1. IMO the onus is on Bush to prove he is such a sure thing it is OK to potentially pass up a franchise QB.

[KAS13]

I agree with all of this. With the right offensive coordinator, Bush could do some amazing things. The only concern I have for him is the between the tackles stuff. I don't worry about durability like some or on whether or not he gets enough touches. But if he really is limited to breaking off runs to the outside, I don't think he will be an elite back. But the guy packs more of a wallop than people realize. I think he has a unfounded rep as not being a strong RB because he is so fast and elusive, but I imagine he will do fine taking hits.


I think Kubiak is that guy. He's gotten the most out of Plummer (who's a good athlete like Carr but not as skilled) and has been around the best running team for years. LT isn't super in between the tackles, Barry wasn't super in between the tackles either. The thing about them is that they are going to have a lot of those 2 yd carries and carries for no gain. Then all of a sudden after 8 carries for 20 yards then bust an 60-80 yard run. They are homerun hitters. Portis and Tiki Barber are two of the best backs statiscally in the NFL right now. Both had the exact same questions as Bush coming into the league. Portis gained muscles and now can get in between the tackles. Barber and guys like Warrick Dunn have had long careers by picking their spots and breaking big runs. I think Bush will be an elite back. I won't call him Barry Sanders but I can certainly see a prime Marshall Faulk or even an LT and that's perfectly fine with me.

[VesceySux]

Kiper has just as much credibility as a lot of the other people who have been named as Young supporters. Let's not start analyzing scouts and analysts now.

You think Kiper actually does stuff? I know for a fact that Kiper has a team of monkeys (i.e. not scouts) who does his research for him. When I did my college football research for work, I used to print his rankings out... and then use them as toilet paper. I trust Ourlads, Great Blue North, and The Huddle Report a hell of a lot more than I do Kiper. Just FYI.

One thing I'll say: Some of you are saying that you want Vince Young NOT because he's from UT, but because he's genuinely a great NFL prospect. Well, you're fooling nobody but yourselves. You want him because he DID go to UT AND happens to be a great prospect. Don't BS us. But you know what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. We love the hometown guys. They're easier to rally around; they're easier to cheer on. And that's a huge plus for taking VY. In fact, it might just be the deciding factor as well.

[KAS13]

Agreed. I've said all along that I'm not really worried about his size or durability, plenty of backs his size have made it in this league.

But from day one, I've been worried about his ability (or willingness) to run between the tackles. The Rose Bowl game was a pretty good example of his running style, he almost exclusively cuts it outside on every single run. This is a good move because Bush is usually the fastest person on the field, but on the Texas D showed that by cutting off the sidelines, you are taking away his biggest asset. How many times did Reggie run out of bounds or get tackled for no gain or loss near the sideline?

Like I said, Bush did the smart thing by outrunning the defenders to the sideline, but this luxury won't be there in the NFL where you MUST run between the tackles and where LBs and some DEs can beat you to the sideline no problem.


That being said he still gained 80 yds on 13 carries and had that huge td in which he broke it to the outside. All these guys are going to have to adjust to the speed of the NFL. It's just the way it is. Even if he never develops into a good in between the tackles runner that's what short yardage backs are for. They're everywhere nowadays.

[Desert Scar]

....LT isn't super in between the tackles, Barry wasn't super in between the tackles either. ....Portis and Tiki Barber are two of the best backs statiscally in the NFL right now. Both had the exact same questions as Bush coming into the league. Portis gained muscles and now can get in between the tackles. Barber and guys like Warrick Dunn have had long careers by picking their spots and breaking big runs. I think Bush will be an elite back. I won't call him Barry Sanders but I can certainly see a prime Marshall Faulk or even an LT and that's perfectly fine with me.

All these guys were workhorse backs who did run a lot more between the tackles in college with a lot less blocking than Reggie Bush got.

[underoverup]

Actually, it's not silly because it holds truth. That's the reason a lot of people want Young here.

No that's just not true, Texan fans want the best player who happens to be a hometown hero = VY

Many analysts say that even Peyton Manning couldn't have made the playoffs here.

Which analysts said that? Specifically. Names. Thanks. :)

[underoverup]

Originally Posted by IC2000
What about Leinart then? He is rated higher on most scouts boards as a QB.


Because most of us think that Bush is better than Leinart this is why everyone was happy with Carr/ Bush before VY shocked the world. Personally I think Leinhart and Carr are a wash and I would under any circumstances want Bush over Leinhart.

[gucci888]

That being said he still gained 80 yds on 13 carries and had that huge td in which he broke it to the outside. All these guys are going to have to adjust to the speed of the NFL. It's just the way it is. Even if he never develops into a good in between the tackles runner that's what short yardage backs are for. They're everywhere nowadays.

Ya, that TD really showed what he can if able to get to the sidelines, it was amazing. But the other 12 carries shows what happens when you cut that off, you have a 12 carry for 54 yard back.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Bush, he is an amazing player. But I think it just shows that Bush can be stopped, and in my opinion, quite easily with a good game plan. I think it's a little easier to stop a player if you know what he wants to do everytime he runs the ball.

The Horns were able to shut down Bush for the most part, you can see this because (except for the TD) Bush never beat the defense to the sideline. On the other hand, Carroll had a month to prepare for VY and the defense still had no idea how to stop him.

I believe Carroll quoted, "We knew what the problem was, but we couldn't stop him."

[DaDakota]

I believe Carroll quoted, "We knew what the problem was, but we couldn't stop him."

Yep, and when USC needed to convert a 4th down to win the game, Bush was not even on the field.

Vince...well.....he was on the field for every offensive play.

DD

[CriscoKidd]

The comparison is valid. He is slightly slower(darn that dreaded 4.4 forty time) but is just as elusive. What do you call sliding out of ankle tackles like they are nothing, all the jukes/fakes/etc? He definitely has Vick's elusiveness, just slower. I could even argue he is harder to bring down than Vick(ie more elusive).

Now, I will say that Vick is better than Vince in space in regards to running, but as far as total elusiveness, I've seen few qb's as hard to tackle period as Vince. People try grabbing his ankles and he just brushes them off.

Well I respectively disagree.

What makes Vick electric and so popular, and to a certain extent overrated, is that he is like a wr or kick returner with a cannon for an arm.

Now it's obvious Young will have the ability to be a good scrambling threat in the nfl, but he still wont be as good as Vick in that regard. I just don't think he'll be running over and through people anywhere near as much at the next level, but with good coaching, he wont need to.

I really do think Steve Young, Elway, McNabb, and McNair are good comparisons for him. Or perhaps CPep with more speed.

But imo, if you're leaning to vy, it isn't because he's a better vick, it's because you think he's the next elway. The thing that VY has on his side is that he has gotten better seemingly every time he steps onto the field. Match that up with his physical skills, leadership, and good personality, and you have a guy that's hard not to root for.

[KAS13]

No that's just not true, Texan fans want the best player who happens to be a hometown hero = VY



Which analysts said that? Specifically. Names. Thanks. :)


That is true. Young is not the clear cut best player. I personally think he's second best, some think he is the best, I'm sure some even have Leinart as the top guy on their board. It's your opinion that Young is the best player and if you are going to argue that ut's not an opinion then there's no point in us even discussing it any further.

I heard it probably twice on ESPN and once during a Texans broadcast. I'm sorry that while I was watching i didn't have a pen and paper to write down exactly what analyst made the comment.

[KAS13]

All these guys were workhorse backs who did run a lot more between the tackles in college with a lot less blocking than Reggie Bush got.


They got more carries then Bush in college. They ended up workhorse backs in the pros. Do you really remember how good the Oklahoma State line was compared to USC's? I certainly don't. Bush was used at many different positions and had another talented guy on the same team with him (a la Barry Sanders and Thurman Thomas). It made sense to use them both.

[gr8-1]

They got more carries then Bush in college. They ended up workhorse backs in the pros. Do you really remember how good the Oklahoma State line was compared to USC's? I certainly don't. Bush was used at many different positions and had another talented guy on the same team with him (a la Barry Sanders and Thurman Thomas). It made sense to use them both.


I'm not sure that Sanders played much until Thomas left.

[KAS13]

Ya, that TD really showed what he can if able to get to the sidelines, it was amazing. But the other 12 carries shows what happens when you cut that off, you have a 12 carry for 54 yard back.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Bush, he is an amazing player. But I think it just shows that Bush can be stopped, and in my opinion, quite easily with a good game plan. I think it's a little easier to stop a player if you know what he wants to do everytime he runs the ball.

The Horns were able to shut down Bush for the most part, you can see this because (except for the TD) Bush never beat the defense to the sideline. On the other hand, Carroll had a month to prepare for VY and the defense still had no idea how to stop him.

I believe Carroll quoted, "We knew what the problem was, but we couldn't stop him."


Every time Bush was on the field UT keyed on him though. You would see them move 9 guys into the box. They were determined not to let him beat them. LenDale White wasn't so effective because he's a better back then Bush ( I know nobody is saying that it's just part of my point) it's because Texas wasn't going to get beat by Leinart when Bush was out. UT game planned well. If LenDale White beats you, hats off to USC. You knew Leinart was going to throw for solid yardage so you live with that. In the NFL, defenses won't be able to put 9 guys in the box on Bush when you have a guy like Andre Johnson on the outside. If they do, you'll see nnumbers from our receivers like Gates, McCardell and Herman Moore (Lions WR). That's what a guy like Bush does. I personally think he can get 15-20 carries and line up at receiver 7-13 times. That's fine by me.

USC has a bas defense. We all knew that going in. That takes nothing away from what Young did but they simply didn't have the team speed to stop him. Texas had a defesnse 10 times as good as USC. How many USC defenders would start for that UT team...2 -3 maybe.

What i think people are failing to realize is that everyone is saying Bush had an off game, he was shut down, ect and he still had over 220 yds of total offense , a td and averaged over 6 yds a carry. That's pretty good for being keyed on, "shut down", and not getting as many touches as normal. I'll take those numbers any day of the week.

[gr8-1]

I think inexperience, not team speed was SC's problem.

[KAS13]

I'm not sure that Sanders played much until Thomas left.


He didn't. I'm just saying USC had the best of both worlds and used it to their advantage. White is a first round talent and is better inside and Bush is a gamebreaker who's better outside. Why not use both? If Bush had had 25 carries who knows what his numbers would have been.

[KAS13]

I think inexperience, not team speed was SC's problem.

They played in plenty of big games that season so even though inexperience played a role, it was clear they lacked team speed on defense.

[gucci888]

Every time Bush was on the field UT keyed on him though. You would see them move 9 guys into the box. They were determined not to let him beat them. LenDale White wasn't so effective because he's a better back then Bush ( I know nobody is saying that it's just part of my point) it's because Texas wasn't going to get beat by Leinart when Bush was out. UT game planned well. If LenDale White beats you, hats off to USC. You knew Leinart was going to throw for solid yardage so you live with that. In the NFL, defenses won't be able to put 9 guys in the box on Bush when you have a guy like Andre Johnson on the outside. If they do, you'll see nnumbers from our receivers like Gates, McCardell and Herman Moore (Lions WR). That's what a guy like Bush does. I personally think he can get 15-20 carries and line up at receiver 7-13 times. That's fine by me.

USC has a bas defense. We all knew that going in. That takes nothing away from what Young did but they simply didn't have the team speed to stop him. Texas had a defesnse 10 times as good as USC. How many USC defenders would start for that UT team...2 -3 maybe.

What i think people are failing to realize is that everyone is saying Bush had an off game, he was shut down, ect and he still had over 220 yds of total offense , a td and averaged over 6 yds a carry. That's pretty good for being keyed on, "shut down", and not getting as many touches as normal. I'll take those numbers any day of the week.

Like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from Bush, my point is that Reggie can be stopped, and with a pretty simple game plan as well.

You're right, he still had great numbers (even though I don't like adding in kick returns to total offense since you usually get 15 yards w/o getting touched to start), but I think we can all admit that he didn't have the IMPACT on the game that everyone thought he would.

Texas' defense was keying in on Bush all night like you said, in the NFL, this won't have to happen, especially if you know where he likes to run the ball.

[MadMax]

i don't know how reggie bush will be in the pros. i don't know.


i know you can't just run the ball around the end in the NFL, though. you'll get clobbered.


and i know i didn't see reggie driving between the tackles much in college...that was left for someone else.

thus...uncertainty.

[KAS13]

Like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from Bush, my point is that Reggie can be stopped, and with a pretty simple game plan as well.

You're right, he still had great numbers (even though I don't like adding in kick returns to total offense since you usually get 15 yards w/o getting touched to start), but I think we can all admit that he didn't have the IMPACT on the game that everyone thought he would.

Texas' defense was keying in on Bush all night like you said, in the NFL, this won't have to happen, especially if you know where he likes to run the ball.


Anyone can be stopped on any given night with the right game plan.

I don't put that much stock in kick returns either but it's part of his total package. I agree, he didn't play as well as everyone expected.

Most speed back like to run to the outside first. In reality though, it's all about hitting holes. Denver's big runs from ( TD, Anderson, Gary, Griffin, Bell, ect) came from pitches to the outside and patient running. The same goes for KC with Priest and LJ. Obviously LJ, TD and Anderson are good inside runners but there's no way to tell how good Bush can be until we see him in the pros. He's going to be working with LT every offseason from now on so I'm sure they will refine his weakness's. Every player has them.

[gr8-1]

I think Bush was a pretty avg KR. I'm sure he has potential to improve though.

[KAS13]

I think Bush was a pretty avg KR. I'm sure he has potential to improve though.

It won't matter if we pick him because Mathis has that job locked up. can you imagine splitting out Bush, Johnson and Mathis (if he would learn how to catch)? One of those guys would be open by 5-10 yards.

[gucci888]

Anyone can be stopped on any given night with the right game plan.

I don't put that much stock in kick returns either but it's part of his total package. I agree, he didn't play as well as everyone expected.

Most speed back like to run to the outside first. In reality though, it's all about hitting holes. Denver's big runs from ( TD, Anderson, Gary, Griffin, Bell, ect) came from pitches to the outside and patient running. The same goes for KC with Priest and LJ. Obviously LJ, TD and Anderson are good inside runners but there's no way to tell how good Bush can be until we see him in the pros. He's going to be working with LT every offseason from now on so I'm sure they will refine his weakness's. Every player has them.

Absolutely. If I was as fast as Bush, I would be doing the same. If you can consistenly beat defenses to the sideline, why wouldn't you do it.

But that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing. I also wouldn't classify Bush as a patient runner. He loves using his speed and cuts it out every chance he gets, even if the hole is still there. I've seen a ton of plays where it seems Bush is suppose to run straight up the guy but ends up cutting it out, whether this is by system or by player, Bush will have to learn to how to run up the gut. I'm not saying he won't be able to, but its something he hasn't shown yet.

[KAS13]

Absolutely. If I was as fast as Bush, I would be doing the same. If you can consistenly beat defenses to the sideline, why wouldn't you do it.

But that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing. I also wouldn't classify Bush as a patient runner. He loves using his speed and cuts it out every chance he gets, even if the hole is still there. I've seen a ton of plays where it seems Bush is suppose to run straight up the guy but ends up cutting it out, whether this is by system or by player, Bush will have to learn to how to run up the gut. I'm not saying he won't be able to, but its something he hasn't shown yet.

There's no question Bush won't be able to cut everything to the outside in the pros. I'm sure he knows that and will work on it. I just liked the fact that he is so multi talented and is going to be working with LT every summer. The importance of that is very signifigant in my eyes. He's been doing it since last season so it shows not only a willingness to learn and get better but also to work hard. Work ethic is very important to me when drafting a guy.

In the end I just think he helps the team more then Young. We need more game breakers and ton more team speed on offense. DD just doesn't bring that. He's solid but he's never going to elite or great. He'll always be good and unfortunately it seems like he'll always be hurt for at least 2 games. Carr still has a chance to be elite and great. We really haven't given him a chance to live up to his full potential and even the biggest carr haters out there have to agree that he's shown signs that he can make every throw (and he's mobile).

[Raven Lunatic]

One thing I like about Bush is his quickness and elusiveness in open field. I think where that translates the best into the Texans offense would be on any dump off passes that Carr makes to him, as he does Dominick Davis right now. The difference is, while DDavis can break a tackle or two and turn this 4-5 yards dumps into 7-8 yards, Bush will go from 0-60 in 1 second and could break a great deal of them for much bigger yardage. I don't think we as Texans fans would complain nearly as much about the "Is AJ open? No? Pass to Dominick" type passing game if it was Bush that was on the receiving end.

When I think about stuff like that, starts to get me excited about Bush. But then I start thinking about what Young did in the NC game and I get excited about him. That's the cool thing about this draft, people. No matter which guy we pick, he will most likely be the most explosive, electric player on the field (for the Texans) EVERY week. I, for one, can't wait.

[rimrocker]

If you look at the game, you'll see that 2 of Reggie's 3 big plays were suspect.

On the first, the Texas defenders all rushed by Bush leaving him alone for a quasi-screen that led to lots of yardage and an ill-advised lateral. If one Texas defender had stayed with him instead of rushing towards ML, he probably would have been tackled as soon as he caught the ball. Not many pro defenses are going to leave him alone in that situation... they'd be lying low and smelling pick or bone-crushing hit the whole way. (In retrospect, it's good this play turned out the way it did.)

The second play in question was the shuffle pass during USC's last drive. If Texas isn't in a Prevent to try and keep the Trojans out of field goal range, it's doubtful he gets that many yards. I will say that it was a damn good play call and I was glad he went out of bounds instead of turning it towards midfield... it looked like he could have gotten more yards if he had so chosen.

The TD run was impressive, but I think the notion that, in the NFL, he will have to make it through the D-line before he can turn on the jets for big yardage is generally true. Not to say he won't bust some on the outside, but it will be tougher.

[KAS13]

One thing I like about Bush is his quickness and elusiveness in open field. I think where that translates the best into the Texans offense would be on any dump off passes that Carr makes to him, as he does Dominick Davis right now. The difference is, while DDavis can break a tackle or two and turn this 4-5 yards dumps into 7-8 yards, Bush will go from 0-60 in 1 second and could break a great deal of them for much bigger yardage. I don't think we as Texans fans would complain nearly as much about the "Is AJ open? No? Pass to Dominick" type passing game if it was Bush that was on the receiving end.

When I think about stuff like that, starts to get me excited about Bush. But then I start thinking about what Young did in the NC game and I get excited about him. That's the cool thing about this draft, people. No matter which guy we pick, he will most likely be the most explosive, electric player on the field (for the Texans) EVERY week. I, for one, can't wait.

That's exactly what excites me about having him on the team. Also, while team will leave Davis in open space and devote another guy to cover receivers they won't be doing that very much with Bush. I like the fact that you can line him up in the backfield and then flank him out with Andre. That leaves a safety covering him or the defense calling a time out. I just see him doing for our offense what Faulk did for the Rams. I am convinced Andre is a superstar and although I know we don't have an Isaac Bruce at the #2 (it's a need I think we'll address) we do have a hakim at the #3 (mathis). We also have Derrick Armstrong (underrated) who can be like Proehl. Warner was solid and so is Bulger but I'm not convinced that they are better then David carr at all. I think they actually proved that if you put an offense that explosive around a QB anything can happen.

I agree. It's why I don't want to trade out of the pick. If Tony Banks was out starter I'd be much more open to picking Young but I'll stick with carr until I think he gets a fair shot. If we pick Young, I'll be fine with that too. I just think Bush fits a lot better (plus we don't have to wait and then trade Carr and watch him blossom somewhere else).

[KAS13]

If you look at the game, you'll see that 2 of Reggie's 3 big plays were suspect.

On the first, the Texas defenders all rushed by Bush leaving him alone for a quasi-screen that led to lots of yardage and an ill-advised lateral. If one Texas defender had stayed with him instead of rushing towards ML, he probably would have been tackled as soon as he caught the ball. Not many pro defenses are going to leave him alone in that situation... they'd be lying low and smelling pick or bone-crushing hit the whole way. (In retrospect, it's good this play turned out the way it did.)

The second play in question was the shuffle pass during USC's last drive. If Texas isn't in a Prevent to try and keep the Trojans out of field goal range, it's doubtful he gets that many yards. I will say that it was a damn good play call and I was glad he went out of bounds instead of turning it towards midfield... it looked like he could have gotten more yards if he had so chosen.

The TD run was impressive, but I think the notion that, in the NFL, he will have to make it through the D-line before he can turn on the jets for big yardage is generally true. Not to say he won't bust some on the outside, but it will be tougher.


Actually, I disagree with most of your post. You can't just say, "if they had left one defender there he would have been tackled immediately". How many guys can bring down Reggie one on one? Secondly, there will be a lot more blitz packages in the NFL then UT came with so Reggie will have a shot at a lot of big plays off screens and single coverage.

It will be tougher for Reggie just like it will be tougher for Vince. Every single player who enters the draft is going to have to adjust to the speed of the NFL. In all reality, Young and Leinart have the hardest positions to adjust to.

[Raven Lunatic]

The second play in question was the shuffle pass during USC's last drive. If Texas isn't in a Prevent to try and keep the Trojans out of field goal range, it's doubtful he gets that many yards. I will say that it was a damn good play call and I was glad he went out of bounds instead of turning it towards midfield... it looked like he could have gotten more yards if he had so chosen.


Really, Bush not turning that run back upfield would have to be attributed to Pete Carrol's dumb ass. Were his team prepared for the inevitable 2 point conversion that everyone knew was coming on the previous TD by Texas, then he would have had a timeout left and Bush could have afforded to get tackled in bounds on that last shuffle pass. But since he had to make sure he got out of bounds, he had to hug the line. I still think that play would have resulted in a TD if he didn't have to worry about the clock.

[KAS13]

Really, Bush not turning that run back upfield would have to be attributed to Pete Carrol's dumb ass. Were his team prepared for the inevitable 2 point conversion that everyone knew was coming on the previous TD by Texas, then he would have had a timeout left and Bush could have afforded to get tackled in bounds on that last shuffle pass. But since he had to make sure he got out of bounds, he had to hug the line. I still think that play would have resulted in a TD if he didn't have to worry about the clock.

Cosigned.

[T-2]

What i think people are failing to realize is that everyone is saying Bush had an off game, he was shut down, ect and he still had over 220 yds of total offense

Not to derail the discussion, but please stop including meaningless return yards to buttress your argument. As has been mentioned in the past, even the worst kickoff returners can get like 15-20 yards a pop because there are no defenders to elude when you first catch the ball.

He was very mediocre returning kickoffs in that game. Check out Bush's yds/return. Compare Bush's average against the others in the game and to the 2005 NFL kickoff return leaders. You'd expect a #1 pick to at least be above average, or better than his peers.

[swilkins]

Not to derail the discussion, but please stop including meaningless return yards to buttress your argument. As has been mentioned in the past, even the worst kickoff returners can get like 15-20 yards a pop because there are no defenders to elude when you first catch the ball.

He was very mediocre returning kickoffs in that game. Check out Bush's yds/return. Compare Bush's average against the others in the game and to the 2005 NFL kickoff return leaders. You'd expect a #1 pick to at least be above average, or better than his peers.

Considering how under-utilized Bush was, 177 yards rushing/receiving is not too shabby.

[KAS13]

Considering how under-utilized Bush was, 177 yards rushing/receiving is not too shabby.


Exactly

[MadMax]

Considering how under-utilized Bush was, 177 yards rushing/receiving is not too shabby.

but how do we know he was under-utilized?? was it that he was under-utilized or was it that Carroll thought he would be better served by White carrying the load between the tackles??

[hoang17]

Considering how under-utilized Bush was, 177 yards rushing/receiving is not too shabby.

50 of those receiving yards came on the 2nd to last play of the game when texas was playing a full prevent defense (of the long ball). He had one good reception in the 1st quarter where he took a screen, but you just got to keep it in perspective how some of the yards were obtained.

[underoverup]

Considering how under-utilized Bush was, 177 yards rushing/receiving is not too shabby.

I thought he was over-utilized, that's why he was standing on the sidelines catching his breath on the biggest play of the national championship game (4 and 2). :eek:

or I could be wrong, maybe it was because he was the Trojans 2nd best running back...

[Raven Lunatic]

50 of those receiving yards came on the 2nd to last play of the game when texas was playing a full prevent defense (of the long ball). He had one good reception in the 1st quarter where he took a screen, but you just got to keep it in perspective how some of the yards were obtained.

The actual number of yards was 26.

[Desert Scar]

Really, Bush not turning that run back upfield would have to be attributed to Pete Carrol's dumb ass. Were his team prepared for the inevitable 2 point conversion that everyone knew was coming on the previous TD by Texas, then he would have had a timeout left and Bush could have afforded to get tackled in bounds on that last shuffle pass. But since he had to make sure he got out of bounds, he had to hug the line. I still think that play would have resulted in a TD if he didn't have to worry about the clock.

Bush was very unlikely to score on his last catch had he cut inside--I watched the play at least 4 times to check. Two Longhorns were playing for the cutback (in excellent position) and more safeties were deep. Bush probably would have gained another 5-10 yards or so, but was unlikely to get in field goal range and thus the right move was taking it out of bounds. I watched it because it was an interesting delimma. If he think he could have gotten in field goal range he should have taken it inside, because the clock stops to move the chains and they could have spiked it for one last play (kick). But because he ran out of bounds he left enough time for 2 plays, it was just Leinart I thought botched it. I would have tried a quick 15 yard out to Jarrett. If you complete it, you go for a game tying field goal. If you don't you try a hail mary. But Leinart and SC bungled that last one and got neither out of the last 10 seconds or so. But I still think Bush made the right play running OB rather than cutting it inside because it was unlikely he would have gotten into FG range. He made the smartest play for his team IMO. (BTW it was a terrible defensive call by the Longhorns to not have more guys around Bush for that dump off, I think Al Harris in particular screwed up)


Every time Bush was on the field UT keyed on him though. You would see them move 9 guys into the box. They were determined not to let him beat them. LenDale White wasn't so effective because he's a better back then Bush ( I know nobody is saying that it's just part of my point) it's because Texas wasn't going to get beat by Leinart when Bush was out. UT game planned well.

Actually the logic and the way it played out was inverse. With White in there UT could more afford to put 9 men in the box because the extra receiving threat (Bush) and homerun running threat isn't there. UT stacked it on LenDale even more, it was just the interior of SC line killed the UT D-line on 90% of the plays and LenDale used the holes in the middle better than Bush. Bush tried to take it outside which played into UT hands as they were more a fast defense than stout in the middle. Bush did get spectacular run on them to the outside, but that was 1 time.

Bush in the receiving game didn't overwhelm me. He did do a suberb job (- lateral) on dump offs when Texas left the middle of the field open. But in routes I wasn't impressed, in fact I saw a back-up linebacer (Kelson) stay with him pretty well on a wheel route. Nothing I saw made me think you can line Bush out at WR and he will kill your average NFL DB due to route skills or adjustment to the ball in the air. Jarrett is another story.

Bush should be a fine NFL player but I don't see near the adjustments NFL defenses than a lot of people mae it out. He is not going to beat an NFL defense to the sidelines--he will have to learn to get his bread and butter between the tackles, and a decent DB will cover him just fine in more formal pass routes IMO. He should be great in screens and returns or any way you can create space for him. But that is a lot different than thinking you stick him out there and he fundamentally changes the way the defense has to play--I don't see it.

[stevel]

I have to say I find the "he only runs outside" laughable. If any of you have ever played RB, you are taught to try to get to the corner. If you can get outside thats where you want to go because most of the defense will be inside. He happens to be faster than most of the guys he play against, thus he gets the corner. That is not his fault, nor does it mean he cannot run inside between the tackles. Actually, what I think will happen with RB in the NFL is that he will be a tremendous cutback runner. I think defenses will have to repsect his speed to the outside and you will get some overaggressiveness creating cutback lanes. This is one of the things TD did so well for Denver.

[stevel]

Of course he is going to get outside in the NFL. He may not take all of them to the house, but he will absolutely get outside. Getting the corner depends not only on speed, but the blocking scheme. I know our line sucks in pass blocking but we are definitely an effective run blocking team.

[MadMax]

I have to say I find the "he only runs outside" laughable. If any of you have ever played RB, you are taught to try to get to the corner. If you can get outside thats where you want to go because most of the defense will be inside. He happens to be faster than most of the guys he play against, thus he gets the corner. That is not his fault, nor does it mean he cannot run inside between the tackles. Actually, what I think will happen with RB in the NFL is that he will be a tremendous cutback runner. I think defenses will have to repsect his speed to the outside and you will get some overaggressiveness creating cutback lanes. This is one of the things TD did so well for Denver.


you're not taught to run to the corner on every play. that's ridiculous. not every play is a sweep. plays are designed...you don't just get handed the ball and run whereever you like.

his speed will be marginalized somewhat in the NFL. i don't think anyone can question that.

you're right...i'm not saying he can't run between the tackles..i'm saying i don't know. but apparently the coach who has had him the last 3 years thinks the other guy on his team runs between the tackles better than he does. that's concerning.

[Desert Scar]

I have to say I find the "he only runs outside" laughable. If any of you have ever played RB, you are taught to try to get to the corner. If you can get outside thats where you want to go because most of the defense will be inside. He happens to be faster than most of the guys he play against, thus he gets the corner. That is not his fault, nor does it mean he cannot run inside between the tackles. Actually, what I think will happen with RB in the NFL is that he will be a tremendous cutback runner. I think defenses will have to repsect his speed to the outside and you will get some overaggressiveness creating cutback lanes. This is one of the things TD did so well for Denver.

The bottom line hear is SC obviously thought LenDale was the better runner between the tackles. They have thought this for 2 seasons with plenty of time for Bush to prove them wrong. Sorry, if a Dorsett, Sanders, Faulk, Edge or LT were there LenDale would have waited until next season to play any critical down. So all we are doing is assuming Bush can be a great interior runner and assuming he will adapt effectively to the speed of NFL defenses. Those are not small assumptions about his game nor "nit picks" about his college resume.

[Raven Lunatic]

The bottom line hear is SC obviously thought LenDale was the better runner between the tackles. They have thought this for 2 seasons with plenty of time for Bush to prove them wrong. Sorry, if a Dorsett, Sanders, Faulk, Edge or LT were there LenDale would have waited until next season to play any critical down. So all we are doing is assuming Bush can be a great interior runner and assuming he will adapt effectively to the speed of NFL defenses. Those are not small assumptions about his game nor "nit picks" about his college resume.

I disagree. Bush not being in the game for in between the tackle type plays doesn't mean he is no good at it or incapable of getting better, it just means that Lendale was at least noticeably better. But Lendale was noticeably excellent at it, so that is not a big knock on Bush. I think the worst you can say about Bush's ability between the tackles is that we really don't know yet one way or another any more than we know if Vince's passing skills will translate to the NFL.

[reggietodd]

How can Bush not be a good between the tackle runner when we've all seen him run between the tackles? He hits the hole like no other when it comes to speed, and he averaged over 8 yards per carry.

Oh yeah it was all against weak weak defenses. :rolleyes:

[Desert Scar]

I disagree. Bush not being in the game for in between the tackle type plays doesn't mean he is no good at it or incapable of getting better, it just means that Lendale was at least noticeably better. But Lendale was noticeably excellent at it, so that is not a big knock on Bush. I think the worst you can say about Bush's ability between the tackles is that we really don't know yet one way or another any more than we know if Vince's passing skills will translate to the NFL.

I don't think we disagree. I agree on your other points on VY as well.

I never said Bush couldn't become a good between the tackles runner, I just said he wasn't a sure thing and a legitimate question. Further, the fact SC preferred LenDale in the red zone and goalline is certainly not a plus. It would be unthinkable to sit a franchise back like Dorsett, Faulk, LT or Barry Sanders just because a very quality potential mid-1st round type back was available in such situations. I am not saying Bush doesn't have the talent of those guys (Dorsett, Faulk), but he certainly does not have their proven track record as pure runners coming into the draft. People saying he is a "sure thing" NFL workhorse RB prospect on their (Dorsett, Faulk, Sanders) level doesn't have their kind of evidence backing them up.

BTW LenDale and the 3rd leading rusher for SC both averaged over 6YPC. Bush and these guys had the kind of holes and open space they will never see again. What we don't know is can Bush turn a -3 plan into no gain, a no gain play into 3 yards, a 5 yard plan in 10, consistently. We know he can take it to the house with good blocking and an open field, but we don't know what he will do with the 99% of pro carries that don't lead to that kind of open space and where the primary duties of a lead RB are making the most out of a given play consistently.

[gucci888]

How can Bush not be a good between the tackle runner when we've all seen him run between the tackles? He hits the hole like no other when it comes to speed, and he averaged over 8 yards per carry.

Oh yeah it was all against weak weak defenses. :rolleyes:

Have you even seen a USC game? You obviously haven't because Bush cuts it outside about 75% of his runs. You don't average 8 yards a carry running between the tackles. Go watch the Rose Bowl again, I don't remember Bush ever running between the tackles, not once. Several plays looked like he was suppose to but he ended up cutting it outside for a no gain or he ran straight out of bounds.

I have to say I find the "he only runs outside" laughable. If any of you have ever played RB, you are taught to try to get to the corner. If you can get outside thats where you want to go because most of the defense will be inside. He happens to be faster than most of the guys he play against, thus he gets the corner. That is not his fault, nor does it mean he cannot run inside between the tackles. Actually, what I think will happen with RB in the NFL is that he will be a tremendous cutback runner. I think defenses will have to repsect his speed to the outside and you will get some overaggressiveness creating cutback lanes. This is one of the things TD did so well for Denver.

Where on earth did you play football? I played RB for 5 years in middle school and highschool and I never once heard a coach say try to get to the corner. Maybe on sweeps, but even counter plays are meant for the RB to cut it up right outside the tackle. Basically, you're saying running backs should run East-West and try to beat the entire defense to the sidelines. You're right in that the defense will be inside, but that's what blockers are for and that's exactly why you have a defensive end, on top of that, you are running straight for another tackler- the sideline. I'm sorry Stevel, but I think you are completely wrong in this sense.

Like I've said before, I'm not saying Reggie cannot run between the tackles, I'm saying that he hasn't really shown it yet and that should be of concerned since you need a RB that will take it straight up the guy w/ no hesitation.

Reggie is a great cutback runner, we've seen it all season long. The only problem that is if you do cut it back, you better out run every single one of the defenders or you are going to lose 5-8 yards everytime. Reggie had the luxury of being the fastest person on the field, I guarantee you that the first time Reggie loses yards by running backwards on a cut back, he'll hear it bad from his coach.

[swilkins]

I think some of you are placing too much emphasis on running to the outside.

Reggie runs where he sees an opening. He's got great instincts. When you saw him struggle to the outside against UT, it was because UT read the play and avoided the block. Linebackers can compensate speed by using the distance between them and the running back. The average running back lines up 5-7 yards behind the line of scrimage. Linebackers line up 3-5. If a linebacker knows that the running back is going outside, he will screen them. Since linebackers don't line up as far back as running backs they can usually meet them around the line of scrimage.

Perhaps you could fault the play calling for not utilizing the play action more. If UT is going to jump outside, draw them outside and attack an open part of the field. I personally thought that Pete Carroll underestimated UT and didn't have a good game plan to best utilize his strengths.

gucci888,

You played RB for 5 years in middle school? ;)

[SamFisher]

How can Bush not be a good between the tackle runner when we've all seen him run between the tackles? He hits the hole like no other when it comes to speed, and he averaged over 8 yards per carry.

Oh yeah it was all against weak weak defenses. :rolleyes:

You're right, he was the workhorse up the middle back for the trojans for the last two seasons.... :rolleyes:

Have you ever seen one of their games? How can you be so high on a player you have obvously not seen play, ever - which is the only conclusion I can draw from that post.

[Desert Scar]

Reggie runs where he sees an opening. He's got great instincts. When you saw him struggle to the outside against UT, it was because UT read the play and avoided the block. Linebackers can compensate speed by using the distance between them and the running back. The average running back lines up 5-7 yards behind the line of scrimage. Linebackers line up 3-5. If a linebacker knows that the running back is going outside, he will screen them. Since linebackers don't line up as far back as running backs they can usually meet them around the line of scrimage.


Bush has great instincts in the open field and an exceptional 5 yard burst. His instincts in close space, ability to finish runs versus guys over 200lbs, and instincts to reading blocks between the tackles is much less clear, and no matter how fast an NFL RB is this is where most of their milage is made. UT's speed in the secondary and LBs clearly challenged Bush, rendering him a much weaker factor for his team than he was versus most West Coast teams. Further, the worst of the NFL defenses make the Longhorns speed look like Fresnos. Not good signs for Bush as your between the tackles runner in the NFL. Not a deathnail, not the can't learn it, but he isn't there yet by a long way


Perhaps you could fault the play calling for not utilizing the play action more. If UT is going to jump outside, draw them outside and attack an open part of the field. I personally thought that Pete Carroll underestimated UT and didn't have a good game plan to best utilize his strengths.


SC rolled up 580 yards and only punted twice versus a top 8 defense. They used play action very well with passes to the FBs and TEs in particular, and also used screens very well--Bush's most successfull plays. I hardly fault the offensive gameplan nor think they underestimated UT's defense, they shredded an outstanding defense, doing the vast majority of it with Bush on the bench or plays going to other players.

[reggietodd]

You're right, he was the workhorse up the middle back for the trojans for the last two seasons.... :rolleyes:

Have you ever seen one of their games? How can you be so high on a player you have obvously not seen play, ever - which is the only conclusion I can draw from that post.

wow. This post is shocking. Have I ever seen Reggie Bush play? I think the better question is, have you ever seen him play outside the rose bowl?

I happen to have the fresno state and notre dame game tivo'd. I've mentioned this in a thread a few months ago. Specifically in the fresno state game, i'd say 70 percent, if not more of his runs are straight up the middle. He may bounce a few outside after he goes up the middle, but they aren't sweep plays where he goes around the end.

Would you like to come over to my place and watch the game? I'd be happy to have you.

[gucci888]

wow. This post is shocking. Have I ever seen Reggie Bush play? I think the better question is, have you ever seen him play outside the rose bowl?

I happen to have the fresno state and notre dame game tivo'd. I've mentioned this in a thread a few months ago. Specifically in the fresno state game, i'd say 70 percent, if not more of his runs are straight up the middle. He may bounce a few outside after he goes up the middle, but they aren't sweep plays where he goes around the end.

Would you like to come over to my place and watch the game? I'd be happy to have you.

Will you be providing refreshments? ;)

You're right, they are not sweep plays, but if you watch the big runs he has in the game (which constitutes for most of his yardage), they are mostly plays where he bounces it outside right after the handoff.

[SamFisher]

wow. This post is shocking. Have I ever seen Reggie Bush play? I think the better question is, have you ever seen him play outside the rose bowl?

I happen to have the fresno state and notre dame game tivo'd. I've mentioned this in a thread a few months ago. Specifically in the fresno state game, i'd say 70 percent, if not more of his runs are straight up the middle. He may bounce a few outside after he goes up the middle, but they aren't sweep plays where he goes around the end.

Would you like to come over to my place and watch the game? I'd be happy to have you.

LOL, all right, sorry Reggie Bush was a dominant inside runner and is poised to do so in the NFL - you win.

[IC2000]

Will you be providing refreshments? ;)

You're right, they are not sweep plays, but if you watch the big runs he has in the game (which constitutes for most of his yardage), they are mostly plays where he bounces it outside right after the handoff.

Who cares where he runs if it works? He has been doing it since high school, nobday has stopped him yet. I doubt the NFl will be able to contain him.

[swilkins]

SC rolled up 580 yards and only punted twice versus a top 8 defense. They used play action very well with passes to the FBs and TEs in particular, and also used screens very well--Bush's most successfull plays. I hardly fault the offensive gameplan nor think they underestimated UT's defense, they shredded an outstanding defense, doing the vast majority of it with Bush on the bench or plays going to other players.

I thought that UT did a pretty good job reading the plays where Bush rushed outside. I thought that they could have utilized Bush in the slot more in the 2nd half, while White was rushing. That's just my opinion.

[gucci888]

Who cares where he runs if it works? He has been doing it since high school, nobday has stopped him yet. I doubt the NFl will be able to contain him.

Yeah, I forgot how tough highschool defenses were, especially when you're bigger, faster, and stronger than 95% of the players on the field.

You don't think a NFL defense couldn't contain Reggie? The same Reggie that was contained by the Texas defense? Tell me what kind of defenses Reggie faces in the Pac-10. Fresno State? Hawaii?

I've always said that I would do the same thing as Reggie Bush if I was that fast. But that doesn't mean it will always work. The NFL defenses will be faster, stronger, smarter than anything Reggie has ever seen. I know this can be said for every player entering the NFL, but trying to outrun defenders to the sidelines everytime WILL NOT work in the NFL.

[reggietodd]

UT did a damn good job against Bush, they really did. But he still got 80 something yards rushing and 95 yards receiving which is amazing to me, considering the job they did on him.

When the eagles did a number on LT this year, they held him to like 17 yards rushing.

[Groogrux]

UT did a damn good job against Bush, they really did. But he still got 80 something yards rushing and 95 yards receiving which is amazing to me, considering the job they did on him.

When the eagles did a number on LT this year, they held him to like 17 yards rushing.

This is just a guess-a shot in the dark, if you will-but I'm thinking the Eagles defense (along with probably 31 other NFL defenses) are better than the Longhorns defense.

[percicles]

Who cares where he runs if it works? He has been doing it since high school, nobday has stopped him yet. I doubt the NFl will be able to contain him.

For a moment there I could have sworn you were talking about VY.

Funny how people use one argument for a favorite player but dismiss the same argument when applicable for a player they don't like. ;)

[reggietodd]

This is just a guess-a shot in the dark, if you will-but I'm thinking the Eagles defense (along with probably 31 other NFL defenses) are better than the Longhorns defense.

You're making that assumption because they are an NFL defense.

I'm making the assumption that LT is better than Reggie Bush right now too, so my comparison still holds.

[reggietodd]

At least Reggie Bush doesn't charge people money for his autograph!

lol

[swilkins]

At least Reggie Bush doesn't charge people money for his autograph!

lol

I thought that the autograph debacle was weak. He's going to be rolling in it soon, so why tarnish a great image?

I would be just as disappointed if Bush did it (for all you pro-Young people fixing to blast me)

[Desert Scar]

....Specifically in the fresno state game, i'd say 70 percent, if not more of his runs are straight up the middle.

Gigantic holes with lots of space. When space got tight (versus fast defenses like UT, OU, Cal last year, ASU this year, or in the red zone), LenDale was clearly felt to be the better option by SC coaches. Space is really hard to come by in the NFL as an RB and nobody routinely beats defenses just running for the corner. Nobody. The problems Bush had running versus UT or Cal the year before will be magnifide in the NFL.

Reggie Bush will have tons of adjustments in his style to be effective for the NFL, probably at least as many as VY.

[gucci888]

I thought that the autograph debacle was weak. He's going to be rolling in it soon, so why tarnish a great image?

I would be just as disappointed if Bush did it (for all you pro-Young people fixing to blast me)

Yeah, guys like Oswalt, Lidge, Barry Sanders will be rolling it in as well. Oh, excuse me. What'd you say? They already have millions of dollars? Oh ok, that's fine then.

[IC2000]

Yeah, I forgot how tough highschool defenses were, especially when you're bigger, faster, and stronger than 95% of the players on the field.

You don't think a NFL defense couldn't contain Reggie? The same Reggie that was contained by the Texas defense? Tell me what kind of defenses Reggie faces in the Pac-10. Fresno State? Hawaii?

I've always said that I would do the same thing as Reggie Bush if I was that fast. But that doesn't mean it will always work. The NFL defenses will be faster, stronger, smarter than anything Reggie has ever seen. I know this can be said for every player entering the NFL, but trying to outrun defenders to the sidelines everytime WILL NOT work in the NFL.

Texas did not contain Bush. Bush dominated the weak defenses and high schools, so what? All college players play against inferior competition at certain points, you can't punish Bush for that. He did play Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Texas, Va tech. he looked no different in any of those games then he did against Hawaii

[IC2000]

At least Reggie Bush doesn't charge people money for his autograph!

lol

Not so fast , just wait

[Fegwu]

I think Bush should take Bob McNair to court :D

Assurance indeed.

[MadMax]

i forgot about that!!! how funny!!! :D

espn is such a freaking joke.

[Mr. Clutch]

Chris Moretnsen! Didn't he say Cutler was the #1 QB also?

[MadMax]

Chris Moretnsen! Didn't he say Cutler was the #1 QB also?

seriously, those guys are absolute clowns.

[Xenon]

At least Reggie Bush doesn't charge people money for his autograph!

lol


http://www.thepit.com/News/Show_News_Detail.asp?newsId=9644

[Jeff]

http://www.thepit.com/News/Show_News_Detail.asp?newsId=9644

At those shows, the player has no say so in what is charged for autographs. They are paid a set appearance fee by the show and the show sets the fees for everyone involved. It's like a paid speaking engagement to the players. They get paid whether they sign 1000 autographs or 1.

[KingCheetah]

I think this thread needs a recap because there are some classics in here.

At least Reggie Bush doesn't charge people money for his autograph!

lol


Hey - it's not like Vince demanded a house or anything. :D

[SamFisher]

You know I was looking forward to dredging up old posts this week in a vain attempt to push reggietodd's buttons, but since the guy allegedly got thrown in the slammer over this - well there's not really anything I can do that's going to top that.

[Rocket Fan]

Chris Moretnsen! Didn't he say Cutler was the #1 QB also?

As did hall of fame qb Steve young.... jaws on espn etc :)

[Storm Surge]

maybe bush will have to go back to USC and then next year when the Texans suck once again they can take him #1

[Xenon]

At those shows, the player has no say so in what is charged for autographs. They are paid a set appearance fee by the show and the show sets the fees for everyone involved. It's like a paid speaking engagement to the players. They get paid whether they sign 1000 autographs or 1.

So, you're saying if someone agrees to be at an AUTOGRAPH show for money. He's not actually charging for his autograph? Are you a lawyer?

[gr8-1]

At least Reggie Bush doesn't charge people money for his autograph!

lol

You sure about that? I know alot of Vince's money went to charity, I hope Reggie's didas well.

[reggietodd]

The Houston Texans have made an ass out of me. I even spent a night in the slammer over it. I am humbled, but I still say that Bush should have gone #1 overall. The saints have deuce and they still couldn't pass on him. I'd still go with the notion that 90% of NFL teams would have taken Bush if he were on the board during their pick, regardless of their need. I've railed the VY fans for threatening to stop supporting the Texans, but I bought a saints hat today so that makes me a hypocrite. But after what i've gone thru this weekend, I say Tuck the Fexans!

As far as predictions, i'm going to stick with what I know, Basketball. Anyone see what Kobe did today? :D

[Saint Louis]

Reggie Bush had to go pro so he could pay his parents rent.

[declan32001]

Just read the whole thread and my head hurts. Anyway, the initial ESPN article almost certainly had to be BS. If not, well ugh...

I still think passing on Bush is a PR blunder of epic proportions, but I do know Kubiak has a Reeves-Shanahan offensive background mentality.

For him to pass on Bush is just hard to believe, and I'm not yet sure why. Other than Martz I'd have to believe Kubiak has been writing down plays on walls in crayons in his house for months merely envisioning what he could do.

It seems like an indictment of Bush (no political reference intended) but mine eyes haven't seen the inglory of watching him a run 4.45 forty. In fact, he's just one of those guys that has his own gears on the field.

As big of Vince guy I am, I always understood he wasn't the "smart move" for the Texans. But I don't understand Kubiak thinking a better defense or a better offensive line will change anything except having hopefully a 7-9 season.

He obviously disagrees. I just wish I knew how Kubiak's thinking. Systems are strange things, and offensively the jury is still officially out on us here.

Talent? Well maybe, but I'm not so sure right now.

[anon3803]

gucci888,

You played RB for 5 years in middle school? ;)

Actually if you could read what was on the page and not just what you want you could see that he said 5 years in middle school and high school.

Personally I think Bush has been overhyped since the Fresno State game. If he didn't have that 500 yd performance then no Heisman and none of this outrageous "transcended", "sure thing" talk. He will be a good running back in the NFL, but I don't see him becoming a great running back. USC's O-line dominated all the opposing defenses. Do you think for a second LenDale White would average 6 ypc in the NFL? Of course not, the same goes for Bush's 8+ypc, it's an inflated number that will drop drastically in the NFL.

[KingCheetah]

The Houston Texans have made an ass out of me. I even spent a night in the slammer over it.

http://i3.tinypic.com/wqu71c.jpg




;)