Bush Annoucement Tomorrow Morning

[RocketFan007]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2288562

I have a feeling he just might be staying in school.

[rikesh316]

I heard on XM Radio he really doesn't want to come to the Texans.

[Groogrux]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2288562

I have a feeling he just might be staying in school.

That would be awesome. The annoyance level of the next three months and 18 days would drop dramatically.

[OldManBernie]

That will save everybody a headache. VY a Texan for 2006!!! :D

[The Real Shady]

I hope he stays so it will make the Texans dicision much easier, but he would be a fool to go back to school. Just too many risks for a RB getting injured.

[Master Baiter]

I think the Vince-mania is ridiculous but wanting Bush to stay in school is insane. He makes our pick much more valuable.

[The Cat]

He's coming out. And if he doesn't, it doesn't really change all that much with Vince Young. The stumbling block to getting Vince Young isn't Reggie Bush. It's David Carr. If they like Carr, their opinion won't change if they don't get Reggie Bush. Whether we draft VY depends on whether they can get anything decent via trade for Carr, not whether Bush comes out. If he stays, the debate will shift from VY vs. Bush to VY vs. trading down and getting Ferguson.

But in the end, it's irrelevant... Bush doesn't have much of a reason to go back and hasn't given anyone much reason to think he is.

[Luckyazn]

I hope he stays so it will make the Texans dicision much easier, but he would be a fool to go back to school. Just too many risks for a RB getting injured.


If he stays I"m worry the Texans mite still be too commited to Carr that they'll trade the #1 pick to move down :rolleyes:

[RocketFan007]

But in the end, it's irrelevant... Bush doesn't have much of a reason to go back and hasn't given anyone much reason to think he is.

The same could have been said about Leinart last year.

[Bobblehead]

I heard on XM Radio he really doesn't want to come to the Texans.

Who said that? Where did the source come from?

I hope he realized that he is going to a crappy team no matter what...that's what #1 draft picks go to. He's never going to go to a good team. But the Texans have more potential than the Saints, 49ers, and Jets (if you ask me),

[Agent27]

If he stays I"m worry the Texans mite still be too commited to Carr that they'll trade the #1 pick to move down :rolleyes:

That's funny, because if he stays, I HOPE the Texans trade down. Hell, I HOPE the Texans trade down even if he does come out.

[justtxyank]

While I defintley think he WILL come out, in several interviews he seemed irritated about the media saying it was a sure thing.

[The Cat]

The same could have been said about Leinart last year.

It's very different for a quarterback - they have a much longer lifespan in football than running backs do and take much fewer hits, meaning it's less of a risk for them to stay in school. Also, he wasn't the consensus #1 pick when he decided to stay in school... he was in the 4-8 range. There was a little bit of room for him to improve by staying in school... there's not for Reggie. Also, there were tons of rumors during the season about Reggie looking at agents and narrowing the playing field, so to speak... that wasn't the case with Leinart.

[MadMax]

If he stays I"m worry the Texans mite still be too commited to Carr that they'll trade the #1 pick to move down :rolleyes:

Wait...here's what you posted in a thread here yesterday:

"Vince Young is riding the hype to get drafted higher after 1 game he was label a 5-10 pick before the rose bowl. If he wasn't from Houston nobody here would think he's worth #1. Currently the whole country knows Bush is worth #1pick.

Vince Young is more like VinceIhadagoodgamedraftme"


So do you want the Texans to draft Young if Bush doesn't come out? You said above he's not worth the #1 pick. I'm not trying to pick on you...but I'm just trying to understand.

[The Real Shady]

The same could have been said about Leinart last year.

QBs and RBs are different. Leinart could blow out a knee and still get drafted high because running is not an important part of his game. Now if Bush blows out a knee that's a completely different story.

[TheRaven]

I've wondered all along whether Bush was waiting till he saw what team was in line for him before he committed. I figure if he wanted to be in Houston, he would have given an indication as soon as he heard we had the #1 pick. VY hasn't been bashful about saying what he wants to do...

[justtxyank]

It's very different for a quarterback - they have a much longer lifespan in football than running backs do and take much fewer hits, meaning it's less of a risk for them to stay in school. Also, he wasn't the consensus #1 pick when he decided to stay in school... he was in the 4-8 range. There was a little bit of room for him to improve by staying in school... there's not for Reggie. Also, there were tons of rumors during the season about Reggie looking at agents and narrowing the playing field, so to speak... that wasn't the case with Leinart.

He was too the consensus #1. If he had come out, no doubt that San Fran would have drafted him #1

[MadMax]

He was too the consensus #1. If he had come out, no doubt that San Fran would have drafted him #1

that's how i remember it too, Cat. particularly given the draft order and who was ultimately taken #1.

[justtxyank]

that's how i remember it too, Cat. particularly given the draft order and who was ultimately taken #1.

I remember that there was no question. The niners momentarily hinted they make take Edwards to see if they could trade the pick because they weren't in love with either Rodgers or Smith. But Leinart would have been a definite.

[RocketFan007]

It's very different for a quarterback - they have a much longer lifespan in football than running backs do and take much fewer hits, meaning it's less of a risk for them to stay in school. Also, he wasn't the consensus #1 pick when he decided to stay in school... he was in the 4-8 range. There was a little bit of room for him to improve by staying in school... there's not for Reggie. Also, there were tons of rumors during the season about Reggie looking at agents and narrowing the playing field, so to speak... that wasn't the case with Leinart.

From everything I read before Leinart's decision, he was the consenus #1 pick last year. Do you really believe San Fran would have taken Alex Smith over Leinart?

BTW, Bush is far from the consenus #1 pick at this point.

[Bobblehead]

Here comes D'Brick!!!!!
Look at the Oilers draft history in the early 80's when they rocked at OL.
These were there first round picks!

'82 Mike Munchak OL 8th pick
'83 Bruce Mathews T 9th pick
'84 Deal Steinkuler T 2nd pick

Nt exciting picks, but very beneficial for Campbell and Stabler!!

[The Cat]

He was too the consensus #1. If he had come out, no doubt that San Fran would have drafted him #1

Revisionist history by the USC faithful to make his staying all the more dramatic. He was certainly a high draft pick, but most mocks in late December did not have him in the top three. Most did have Aaron Rodgers ahead of him, even though looking back Leinart clearly appears to be the better prospect.

[justtxyank]

Revisionist history by the USC faithful to make his staying all the more dramatic. He was certainly a high draft pick, but most mocks in late December did not have him in the top three. Most did have Aaron Rodgers ahead of him, even though looking back Leinart clearly appears to be the better prospect.

Incorrect Cat. Everyone had San Fran drafting him #1. It was after Leinart said he'd go back that the draft boards got all screwed up. Many scouts ranked Rodgers over Smith. That's probably what you are remembering.

[The Cat]

BTW, Bush is far from the consenus #1 pick at this point.

Greatly disagree. Ask anyone outside of the city of Houston, and the decision has essentially been made. I'm not saying it, but listen to ESPN and some of the non-local outlets... we'd be absolutely shocking the world if we didn't take Bush first. I'm not saying it would be a mistake not to take him, but it would undoubtedly be a huge shock to anyone except the locals.

[MadMax]

Revisionist history by the USC faithful to make his staying all the more dramatic. He was certainly a high draft pick, but most mocks in late December did not have him in the top three. Most did have Aaron Rodgers ahead of him, even though looking back Leinart clearly appears to be the better prospect.

you may be right. but i'm certainly not USC faithful :) and that's how I remember it. he tore apart OU...and it's why everyone was so baffled that he wasn't coming out.

[RocketFan007]

Greatly disagree. Ask anyone outside of the city of Houston, and the decision has essentially been made. I'm not saying it, but listen to ESPN and some of the non-local outlets... we'd be absolutely shocking the world if we didn't take Bush first. I'm not saying it would be a mistake not to take him, but it would undoubtedly be a huge shock to anyone except the locals.

But Houston has the #1 pick, not the rest of the country. I really believe that McNair is going to make the pick himself, and bring home Vince in order to bring people back to Reliant.

[MadMax]

Greatly disagree. Ask anyone outside of the city of Houston, and the decision has essentially been made. I'm not saying it, but listen to ESPN and some of the non-local outlets... we'd be absolutely shocking the world if we didn't take Bush first. I'm not saying it would be a mistake not to take him, but it would undoubtedly be a huge shock to anyone except the locals.


i saw the first sign of change on this earlier this morning. they had john clayton on sportscenter talking about how much heat the texans were getting to draft young, and how they just might do it.

[Agent27]

But Houston has the #1 pick, not the rest of the country. I really believe that McNair is going to make the pick himself, and bring home Vince in order to bring people back to Reliant.

So Horn fans are going to pack Reliant to watch Vince ride the pine for a year?

[MadMax]

So Horn fans are going to pack Reliant to watch Vince ride the pine for a year?

season ticket holders have to re-new well before we'd know who were drafting, anyway.

we need to be a little bit more forward-thinking than the 2006 Houston Texans, in my view. i don't have real high hopes given how poor this team was and how tough our schedule looks.

[OldManBernie]

I think the Vince-mania is ridiculous but wanting Bush to stay in school is insane. He makes our pick much more valuable.

Who cares about the value of the pick when we are picking VY with it? HOOK'EM!!! :D

[The Cat]

I know you aren't, Max. I'm saying that the USC faithful spread the perception in the media and thus transferred that to the rest of us. I remember some people discussing what a great fit Leinart would be for a team in-state (San Fran), but many claimed at the time that Rodgers had better overall talent.

But Houston has the #1 pick, not the rest of the country. I really believe that McNair is going to make the pick himself, and bring home Vince in order to bring people back to Reliant.

What people have left Reliant, though? This team has sold out every game in its history. Sure, there were empty seats late in the season, but those seats were sold, and it's ridiculous to think those people won't come back if the Texans put a good product on the field. The ticket/local interest angle of drafting Vince is really overplayed... people will support a winner, whether it's led by a Trojan, Longhorn, Aggie, Sooner or whomever. The Texans have had zero problems with fan support thus far in their history, other than the customary empty seats after the season is over.

And Houston's fan base doesn't have the pick... it's the organization. It's an organization with professional minds to rationally look at all the data instead of a group of fans who mostly have burnt orange glasses. Again, I love Vince Young, and I'd love to see him in a Texans jersey... but it's not as simple as some of you make it. Bush is the overwhelming favorite at this point.

[OldManBernie]

And Houston's fan base doesn't have the pick... it's the organization. It's an organization with professional minds to rationally look at all the data instead of a group of fans who mostly have burnt orange glasses. Again, I love Vince Young, and I'd love to see him in a Texans jersey... but it's not as simple as some of you make it. Bush is the overwhelming favorite at this point.

Not if he doesn't declare.

[Agent27]

people will support a winner, whether it's led by a Trojan, Longhorn, Aggie, Sooner or whomever.

Amen. As long as the team wins, it only matters that the players are Texans.

[MadMax]

Cat --

it's about franchise value. drafting Bush doesn't mean you start winning. drafting Young doesn't mean you start losing...hell, they can't lose much more than they just did.

it's about swinging for the fences...it's about winning...and then some. it's about changing the face of the organization. it's about grabbing on to the hottest athlete in the country right now...who happens to already be a hometown hero. it's about building goodwill for the franchise.

if all things are equal...if they win with bush...or win with Young...if you're the team owner, you choose win with Young, and all that carries, every time. because truth be told...you don't know if you'll win or lose.

that's the "to" motivation. the "away" motivation is when your fan base never forgives you for passing up on a local hero who kicks your ass twice a year. i think that away motivation will be VERY strong for team ownership. i don't think GM's and coaches and scouts care much about that. but i don't expect this decision to be made by GM's and coaches and scouts. i expect it will be made by ownership. he's at a serious cross-roads with this franchise, and he's a PR giant.

[OldManBernie]

Cat --

it's about franchise value. drafting Bush doesn't mean you start winning. drafting Young doesn't mean you start losing...hell, they can't lose much more than they just did.

it's about swinging for the fences...it's about winning...and then some. it's about changing the face of the organization. it's about grabbing on to the hottest athlete in the country right now...who happens to already be a hometown hero. it's about building goodwill for the franchise.

if all things are equal...if they win with bush...or win with Young...if you're the team owner, you choose win with Young, and all that carries, every time. because truth be told...you don't know if you'll win or lose.

that's the "to" motivation. the "away" motivation is when your fan base never forgives you for passing up on a local hero who kicks your ass twice a year. i think that away motivation will be VERY strong for team ownership. i don't think GM's and coaches and scouts care much about that. but i don't expect this decision to be made by GM's and coaches and scouts. i expect it will be made by ownership. he's at a serious cross-roads with this franchise, and he's a PR giant.

Imagine if the Rockets have drafted Sam Bowie instead of Hakeem. How good would it feel to have Hakeem and the Portland Trailblazers kick our butts?

[MadMax]

Imagine if the Rockets have drafted Sam Bowie instead of Hakeem. How good would it feel to have Hakeem and the Portland Trailblazers kick our butts?

that's the opportunity before us. you can look back with hindsight and say we should have taken jordan. but at the time...you take the local hero. even if he's unpolished and raw. because his potential value to your franchise off and on the field/court is way too great to pass up on. you'll never have THIS kind of opportunity again.

[The Cat]

Not if he doesn't declare.

Obviously not. But I'm responding to whether Bush is the consensus number one right now, on the hypothetical that he declares, which is a formality, imo.

[The Cat]

Cat --

it's about franchise value. drafting Bush doesn't mean you start winning. drafting Young doesn't mean you start losing...hell, they can't lose much more than they just did.

it's about swinging for the fences...it's about winning...and then some. it's about changing the face of the organization. it's about grabbing on to the hottest athlete in the country right now...who happens to already be a hometown hero. it's about building goodwill for the franchise.

if all things are equal...if they win with bush...or win with Young...if you're the team owner, you choose win with Young, and all that carries, every time. because truth be told...you don't know if you'll win or lose.

that's the "to" motivation. the "away" motivation is when your fan base never forgives you for passing up on a local hero who kicks your ass twice a year. i think that away motivation will be VERY strong for team ownership. i don't think GM's and coaches and scouts care much about that. but i don't expect this decision to be made by GM's and coaches and scouts. i expect it will be made by ownership. he's at a serious cross-roads with this franchise, and he's a PR giant.

You're preaching to the choir on the reasons to take VY on the field.

However, I don't think this team is that far from winning. I think with a solid draft (Casserly has to have one sometime, right?), one or two interior lineman signings in free agency and Reggie Bush this team could potentially be competitive next year.

Any fan who would stop supporting the franchise over whether they took his/her personal choice in the draft wasn't all that much of a fan in the first place in most instances. I don't think this team is as far from winning as some of you do, and perhaps McNair is convinced that with Carr, Bush, AJ and an improved OL they can kick VY's ass twice a year if/when he's with the Titans.

The PR angle, however, is overblown, imo. Fans in Houston, or anywhere, will support a winner. There will be some immediate backlash if we don't take VY. However, losing a few angry bandwagoners one summer doesn't even come close to the amount of fans and positive PR this team will gain if they contend for divisions and championships in a few years. The real gain - or loss - in PR over this entire Bush/Young debate will be determined by how the team plays on the field in the next five or so years. If he's convinced this team can win with Reggie Bush and David Carr, Bob will get all the positive PR he needs.

[Fatty FatBastard]

that's the opportunity before us. you can look back with hindsight and say we should have taken jordan. but at the time...you take the local hero. even if he's unpolished and raw. because his potential value to your franchise off and on the field/court is way too great to pass up on. you'll never have THIS kind of opportunity again.

Wrong, wrong WRONG! The ONLY reason we were able to draft Hakeem was due to the fact that you CAN have two centers playing at the same time. If we could only have ONE center playing (ie. QB), the Rockets would have DEFINITELY have taken Jordan. Why? Hakeem and Bowie AND SAMPSON were Centers.

Why? Because NO TEAM needs a redundant part.

[Groogrux]

Wrong, wrong WRONG! The ONLY reason we were able to draft Hakeem was due to the fact that you CAN have two centers playing at the same time. If we could only have ONE center playing (ie. QB), the Rockets would have DEFINITELY have taken Jordan. Why? Hakeem and Bowie AND SAMPSON were Centers.

Why? Because NO TEAM needs a redundant part.

And how often do you see teams use two centers at the same time. How many times have NBA teams drafted pure centers with their first pick two years in a row?

[Luckyazn]

Imagine if the Rockets have drafted Sam Bowie instead of Hakeem. How good would it feel to have Hakeem and the Portland Trailblazers kick our butts?

We wont be drafting Sam Bowie we'll be drafting MICHAEL JORDAN and watch HAKEEM come into town to play us ;)

[Luckyazn]

Vince Young has a better chance of BUSTING than REGGIE BUSH!

[Fatty FatBastard]

And how often do you see teams use two centers at the same time. How many times have NBA teams drafted pure centers with their first pick two years in a row?

Two Pure Centers? Sampson and Olajuwon were used quite often together. Before Sampson went down, there was talk of dynasty with that pair.

You don't draft a QB in this draft. That position is already filled.

[jopatmc]

Two Pure Centers? Sampson and Olajuwon were used quite often together. Before Sampson went down, there was talk of dynasty with that pair.

You don't draft a QB in this draft. That position is already filled.


.................so said Craig Morton.

[OldManBernie]

Two Pure Centers? Sampson and Olajuwon were used quite often together. Before Sampson went down, there was talk of dynasty with that pair.

You don't draft a QB in this draft. That position is already filled.

Judging by the last few years, Carr has hardly been filling the position.

[The Cat]

Judging by the last few years, Carr has hardly been filling the position.

Again, though, many people feel different on that. I'm a Vince Young supporter, and I think David Carr is a good quarterback already with the potential to be very good to great.

[Fatty FatBastard]

.................so said Craig Morton.


So said everyone at the time. Chicago was willing to trade Jordan straight up for Sampson in 86, and everyone thought that would be a crazy trade on OUR part.

Point is, you can't have a dynasty with two QB's.

[OldManBernie]

Again, though, many people feel different on that. I'm a Vince Young supporter, and I think David Carr is a good quarterback already with the potential to be very good to great.

I am less disappointed with his QB abilities than his leadership abilities. The team gave up on him and he was completely helpless. The team needs a facelift and you need to start from the foundation, and that includes the coaching staff and probably the QB.

[MadMax]

CAT:

1. I disagree. We're not that close to winning. I would be shocked if we won even 6 games next year...particularly considering the upcoming schedule. I'm not convinced Bush will be that kind of difference maker at the pro level...and even if he is, i think there are too many holes elsewhere;

2. I'm a fan who will have a helluva time forgiving the franchise if they drop the ball on this one. I've never had anyone question my allegiance to Houston sports franchises. I don't think anyone would say I wasn't much of a fan to begin with. The people who know me best certainly wouldn't. And I was a Texans season ticket holder through the first 3 seasons. But I must say...I'd have a real hard time with it, particularly when they match up against Vince. I've talked to PSL holders who feel the same way...we can argue over whether or not they were "good fans"...what's important is that they were "paying fans";

3. It's not merely current fans lost...it's fringe fans you have the opportunity of making true-blue fans with this guy. Paying fans even. Example: I had lunch today with a guy I have known for a while...everytime I talk about pro sports, he tunes out. He simply doesn't care. UNTIL TODAY. He couldn't stop talking about Vince and how stupid the Texans would be if they didn't pick him up. The evokes fan interest from those who weren't fans and weren't interested. That's very, very rare. The very idea of the Texans drafting Vince has evoked more interest in the Texans than they've had in their brief history...just off mere possibility of what MIGHT be;

4. I agree Houston sports fans will support a winner. No argument there. But read my last post to you again. Or don't, because I'll repeat myself :) . You don't know that taking Bush makes you a winner. You don't know that taking Young makes you a winner. So let's assume you could win taking either. Which would you rather have? Who has the potential to build greater goodwill for the franchise? That question is just so clearly answered, to me.

[MadMax]

Wrong, wrong WRONG! The ONLY reason we were able to draft Hakeem was due to the fact that you CAN have two centers playing at the same time. If we could only have ONE center playing (ie. QB), the Rockets would have DEFINITELY have taken Jordan. Why? Hakeem and Bowie AND SAMPSON were Centers.

Why? Because NO TEAM needs a redundant part.


i'm shocked that YOU..who told me before the season how bad carr is..and how right you'd be proven this season...after the season Dave had...that you're now saying that VY would be redundant on this team. shocked.

[Fatty FatBastard]

i'm shocked that YOU..who told me before the season how bad carr is..and how right you'd be proven this season...after the season Dave had...that you're now saying that VY would be redundant on this team. shocked.


To be honest, most of that was done tongue-in-cheek. I really didn't expext this season to be so bad.

The fact is, even though I think VY could be a much better QB than Carr, it is still the wrong move.

Again, I'll use the Center proposal. If we had Yao Ming as our QB, and Olajuwon was coming out, we wouldn't draft Olajuwon because that spot has been filled.

[MadMax]

To be honest, most of that was done tongue-in-cheek. I really didn't expext this season to be so bad.

The fact is, even though I think VY could be a much better QB than Carr, it is still the wrong move.

Again, I'll use the Center proposal. If we had Yao Ming as our QB, and Olajuwon was coming out, we wouldn't draft Olajuwon because that spot has been filled.

i don't think you let David Carr keep you from drafting Vince Young. i can UNDERSTAND arguments for not drafting Vince because you think Reggie is more of a sure thing. that's not the way I'd go...but i get that. I don't get looking at David Carr and having that keep you from taking Vince Young.

[Fatty FatBastard]

i don't think you let David Carr keep you from drafting Vince Young. i can UNDERSTAND arguments for not drafting Vince because you think Reggie is more of a sure thing. that's not the way I'd go...but i get that. I don't get looking at David Carr and having that keep you from taking Vince Young.

But, again, we've already got a "solid", if not spectacular QB.

Again, both Olajuwon and Jordan were considered "equal" players during their careers.

In the '83 draft, if it meant we had to trade Sampson, you know we would have taken Jordan over Olajuwon, even though Hakeem was the hometown favorite. It simply would be the right decision.

The same can be said here.

[MadMax]

But, again, we've already got a "solid", if not spectacular QB.

Again, both Olajuwon and Jordan were considered "equal" players during their careers.

In the '83 draft, if it meant we had to trade Sampson, you know we would have taken Jordan over Olajuwon, even though Hakeem was the hometown favorite. It simply would be the right decision.

The same can be said here.

you don't let solid keep you from spectacular. carr doesn't have an anchor tied to him. it's not like he's entirely unmovable. and if you think VY needs a year or so on the bench to season, Carr can play just fine.

we have a "solid" running back, too.

[Lil Francis]

Bush is coming out and the Texans will draft him #1 end of story. Carr will get his money on Feb 2nd and once that happens then its 0% chance they will consider Young if they are paying Carr 8 million dollars a season.

[percicles]

Bush is coming out and the Texans will draft him #1 end of story. Carr will get his money on Feb 2nd and once that happens then its 0% chance they will consider Young if they are paying Carr 8 million dollars a season.

It's 8 mill over 3 seasons. :rolleyes:

[Fatty FatBastard]

you don't let solid keep you from spectacular. carr doesn't have an anchor tied to him. it's not like he's entirely unmovable. and if you think VY needs a year or so on the bench to season, Carr can play just fine.

we have a "solid" running back, too.

But you can use two runningbacks. If you draft Young, you've not only dropped Carr's trade value immensely, you've also put the writing on the wall that he's a lame duck QB at, what? 26?

From a non-biased perspective, drafting VY would be a huge error.

[Lil Francis]

It's 8 mill over 3 seasons. :rolleyes:Whatever it is I know Young won't be in a Texans uniform and you know Im gonna rub it in on draft day to all the VY bandwagon people to make them feel even worst. I can't wait.

[OldManBernie]

But you can use two runningbacks. If you draft Young, you've not only dropped Carr's trade value immensely, you've also put the writing on the wall that he's a lame duck QB at, what? 26?

From a non-biased perspective, drafting VY would be a huge error.

I'm sure the Lions fans are saying the same thing about Harrington.

[OldManBernie]

Whatever it is I know Young won't be in a Texans uniform and you know Im gonna rub it in on draft day to all the VY bandwagon people to make them feel even worst. I can't wait.

Why do you hate us?

[JumpMan]

Whatever it is I know Young won't be in a Texans uniform and you know Im gonna rub it in on draft day to all the VY bandwagon people to make them feel even worst. I can't wait.

You won't have to wait till draft day, typically teams with the number 1 pick start negotiations with their guy before the draft, I think David Carr was actually signed before the draft.

[zaam]

If Bush does not come out and Casserly and CO. do NOT take VY, you will see rioting in the streets. Can you imagine the backlash? Reliant will be burned to the ground, season tickets will be turned back in, and anyone associated with the Texans franchise will be run out of town. Charlie C had better pray that Bush comes out, for that reason alone.

[pgabriel]

But you can use two runningbacks. If you draft Young, you've not only dropped Carr's trade value immensely, you've also put the writing on the wall that he's a lame duck QB at, what? 26?

From a non-biased perspective, drafting VY would be a huge error.


One has to wonder Fatty's motivations, the same guy who was arguing for b.j. symons, a fellow tech grad to start before the season started.


Here's to Carr blowing out his knee so we can finally have a decent quarterback at the helm.


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=100937&page=2&pp=30&highlight=symons

be carefull fatty, that search function is a mofo

[Fatty FatBastard]

One has to wonder Fatty's motivations, the same guy who was arguing for b.j. symons, a fellow tech grad to start before the season started.


Here's to Carr blowing out his knee so we can finally have a decent quarterback at the helm.


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=100937&page=2&pp=30&highlight=symons

be carefull fatty, that search function is a mofo

As I said, that was done humorously. But, when you look at BJ's stats, it also makes you wonder how well VY will do in the NFL. There's no guarantees, and Carr has been anything but a Harrington.

[Cohen]

Vince Young has a better chance of BUSTING than REGGIE BUSH!


There's also more upside.

You a gamblin' man?

[mogrod]

Who said that? Where did the source come from?

I hope he realized that he is going to a crappy team no matter what...that's what #1 draft picks go to. He's never going to go to a good team. But the Texans have more potential than the Saints, 49ers, and Jets (if you ask me),

I haven't seen or heard him say his preference, but I do know he has commented in the past how he thought it would be fun going to the 49ers to play with Alex Smith (his highschool QB).

[Harrisment]

I REALLY hope Bush comes out. Yeah, it sucks hearing all of us argue back and forth like school girls for the next couple months, but I really have no freaking clue what the Texans would do if Bush doesn't come out. I would much rather draft Vince than trade down if those are the options. This team needs a shot of energy, and at least as far as the draft is considered I think that can only be given by Bush or Vince.

[grummett]

Bush has been interviewing agents for a while now. It would be shocking if he doesn't come out.

[KaiSeR SoZe]

Vince YOUNG!!!!! SHSHHAHLASKHAAHHAHAHHA!

[DaDakota]

Here comes D'Brick!!!!!
Look at the Oilers draft history in the early 80's when they rocked at OL.
These were there first round picks!

'82 Mike Munchak OL 8th pick
'83 Bruce Mathews T 9th pick
'84 Deal Steinkuler T 2nd pick

Nt exciting picks, but very beneficial for Campbell and Stabler!!

Campbell's best years were 78-81......

DD

[Smokey]

Draft VY. If he's a bust, oh well. It's not like we're losing any money.

[Lil Francis]

Why do you hate us?I don't hate anybody. I just want Bush with the Texans next season so we can have an offense like the Chargers sooner than later.

[Nick]

I don't hate anybody. I just want Bush with the Texans next season so we can have an offense like the Chargers sooner than later.

If this team's (and your's) ultimate goal is to be like... the Chargers?!?... then I seriously quesiton some of the knowledge being spewed around here.

[gucci888]

If this team's (and your's) ultimate goal is to be like... the Chargers?!?... then I seriously quesiton some of the knowledge being spewed around here.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[Lil Francis]

If this team's (and your's) ultimate goal is to be like... the Chargers?!?... then I seriously quesiton some of the knowledge being spewed around here.Dude I said have a good offensive team like the Chargers I didn't say I want to be them.. The Chargers are one the best offensive teams in the AFC. Bush is a L.T. type of player and Carr can be as good as Brees or better.

[VooDooPope]

But, again, we've already got a "solid", if not spectacular QB.

WTF?!? Carr has never been spectacular in his 4 years here. Solid... at times behind a horrible O-line... but spectacular? Never. I think he's tough. I think he makes decent throws when given time. I don't think he's a good leader and I don't think he'll take the texans to the promised land.

I think Bush would be the safe pick but I'm tired of safe. The texans have played safe ball for 4 years and it got Capers run out of town. Time to roll the dice, and go for the Home Run. Lets go with a QB who has the potential to be spectacular and not just solid.

(Note: Remember those spectacular games this season when Carr's QB rating was in single digits? I can't wait for more of those...)

[VesceySux]

The Chargers are one the best offensive teams in the AFC. Bush is a L.T. type of player and Carr can be as good as Brees or better.

The Chargers are so Chuck Norris awesome, they ranked 10th in yds/g this past season and 10th in yds/g in 2004. Meanwhile, Denver (with Kubiak) ranked 5th the past two seasons. WTF are you thinking?

[The Real Shady]

I think Bush would be the safe pick but I'm tired of safe. The texans have played safe ball for 4 years and it got Capers run out of town. Time to roll the dice, and go for the Home Run. Lets go with a QB who has the potential to be spectacular and not just solid.


If Bush turns out to be the next Barry Sanders would you consider that a home run? Both of these players have the chance to be great. The safe move would be trading down IMO.

I can't make up my mind on this. My mind changes daily on what the Texans should do. Hard decision for the Texans.

[VooDooPope]

If Bush turns out to be the next Barry Sanders would you consider that a home run? Both of these players have the chance to be great. The safe move would be trading down IMO.

I can't make up my mind on this. My mind changes daily on what the Texans should do. Hard decision for the Texans.

Yes I would. Thats why I think Bush is the safe pick... although I think he's more like Eric Metcalf than Barry Sanders

How would trading out of the position to draft one of 2 players that has a chance to be great be a safe move? Sounds foolish to me.

I hope they examine all posiblilites (including trading down if the price is very very high) then draft the best player available.

[CriscoKidd]

As much as I think Bush would be a better fit than Young, it's cool to see Vince pining away for Houston.

Bush doesn't seem to be in that same frame of mind. That irks me a little bit.

[Luckyazn]

What happen if Vince Young shows that he really would LOVE and wants to play here

&

Bush is not showing much interested in coming to Houston, and says more like "yeah I guess I'll just play for whoever drafts me ah I dont really have a choice because I dont want to hold out or demand to play somewhere else ...."

[Chance]

What happen if Vince Young shows that he really would LOVE and wants to play here

&

Bush is not showing much interested in coming to Houston, and says more like "yeah I guess I'll just play for whoever drafts me ah I dont really have a choice because I dont want to hold out or demand to play somewhere else ...."


Well considering that this is exactly the situation we will have to wait and see. I am making my lock prediction later this morning. I make predictions that end up on people's sigs.:D

[RocketFan007]

Anyone know what time Bush is expected to make his annoucement?

[mogrod]

Anyone know what time Bush is expected to make his annoucement?

12:30 local I believe

[rocketball8]

Just heard on Mike and Mike on ESPN that Bush has decided to go back to school.

Greenie was getting information through his ear piece and stated that he understand that ESPN had learned that Bush would return for senior season. At that point the radio show went to commercial and I was unable to hear what was said after the show returned.

Did anyone else hear this.

[garthomps]

Just heard on Mike and Mike on ESPN that Bush has decided to go back to school.

Greenie was getting information through his ear piece and stated that he understand that ESPN had learned that Bush would return for senior season. At that point the radio show went to commercial and I was unable to hear what was said after the show returned.

Did anyone else hear this.

I'm calling BS on that one

[Jebus]

Just heard on Mike and Mike on ESPN that Bush has decided to go back to school.

Greenie was getting information through his ear piece and stated that he understand that ESPN had learned that Bush would return for senior season. At that point the radio show went to commercial and I was unable to hear what was said after the show returned.

Did anyone else hear this.


Maybe they were talking about this:

Bush league
Another Bush, not named Reggie, will make his future plans known soon.

Louisville running back Michael Bush is expected to announce Thursday that he will not make himself eligible for the NFL draft.

Sources told ESPN's Pat Forde that Bush, who led the nation in touchdowns and ran for 1,143 yards in 2005 despite missing two games with a foot injury, will return for his senior season.

He should enter the season as one of the top five running backs in the country.
-- ESPN.com

It's in the sidebar on the espn.com story here (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2288562) about Reggie making his announcement today.

[rrj_gamz]

Why can't we all just get along...If he does come out, we need to either take VY or trade down...We need more picks for every other hole we need to fill...Bush cannot take the pounding...He won't be an inside runner in the NFL...If you want one, take Lendale...

[MadMax]

But you can use two runningbacks. If you draft Young, you've not only dropped Carr's trade value immensely, you've also put the writing on the wall that he's a lame duck QB at, what? 26?

From a non-biased perspective, drafting VY would be a huge error.

i'd trade carr before i took VY.

and a drop in his trade value still isn't enough to keep me from taking VY. you don't let things like that get in the way of drafting a guy like that.

[MadMax]

As I said, that was done humorously. But, when you look at BJ's stats, it also makes you wonder how well VY will do in the NFL. There's no guarantees, and Carr has been anything but a Harrington.

how do i know you're not joking now? ;)

[stevel]

I am not sure I understand everyone's fascination with inside runners. I do think White will make a great a RB in the league but I would really like to get a look at his 40 time. DD is a good inside runner already, as is Warrick Dunn and he weighs about a buck 90. Anyone that has actually seen Dunn play will tell you that he gets most of his yards inside. I am also sure why people seem to think Bush will not be able to "take the pounding" Barry Sanders was 5'8" and 203 and he played for 10 yrs. Curtis Martin is 5'11" and 205 and he has had a long successful career. Emmit Smith was about 210 when he came into the league. Reggie is 6' 207lbs, benches 4 bills, and is only 21. I will bet he gains another 5-10 in the very near future.

[MadMax]

I am not sure I understand everyone's fascination with inside runners. I do think White will make a great a RB in the league but I would really like to get a look at his 40 time. DD is a good inside runner already, as is Warrick Dunn and he weighs about a buck 90. Anyone that has actually seen Dunn play will tell you that he gets most of his yards inside. I am also sure why people seem to think Bush will not be able to "take the pounding" Barry Sanders was 5'8" and 203 and he played for 10 yrs. Curtis Martin is 5'11" and 205 and he has had a long successful career. Emmit Smith was about 210 when he came into the league. Reggie is 6' 207lbs, benches 4 bills, and is only 21. I will bet he gains another 5-10 in the very near future.

because we watched barry and curtis do that. we watched them run in between the tackles as much or more than we watched them run around the corners...trying to outspeed everyone to the flats. there is no emmit/bush comparison...they are entirely different running backs. emmitt doesn't line up at florida as a slot receiver as much as he lines up in the backfield.

bush's game is different.

[stevel]

because we watched barry and curtis do that. we watched them run in between the tackles as much or more than we watched them run around the corners...trying to outspeed everyone to the flats. there is no emmit/bush comparison...they are entirely different running backs. emmitt doesn't line up at florida as a slot receiver as much as he lines up in the backfield.

bush's game is different.

Again it is not only Bush's speed that makes him special, it is his ability to change directions. How many USC games have you actually seen? These bunk ass comparison to people like Metcalf, Howard, and the Rocket are flat out silly. Just because Bush has great hands and enpugh speed to play some WR doesn't mean he cannot run in between the tackles, or that he will turn into another Desmond Howard.

[Groogrux]

Again it is not only Bush's speed that makes him special, it is his ability to change directions. How many USC games have you actually seen? These bunk ass comparison to people like Metcalf, Howard, and the Rocket are flat out silly. Just because Bush has great hands and enpugh speed to play some WR doesn't mean he cannot run in between the tackles, or that he will turn into another Desmond Howard.

How many comparisons of Bush to Metcalf, Howard or Ismail has MadMax made?

[MadMax]

Again it is not only Bush's speed that makes him special, it is his ability to change directions. How many USC games have you actually seen? These bunk ass comparison to people like Metcalf, Howard, and the Rocket are flat out silly. Just because Bush has great hands and enpugh speed to play some WR doesn't mean he cannot run in between the tackles, or that he will turn into another Desmond Howard.

i'm not comparing him to howard or metcalf as a running back. howard was a flat-out receiver...not a running back at all. however, both of those guys could change directions with the best of them...particularly desmond. his highlight film would look every bit as impressive, if not more so, than bush's.

i did watch bush play. i watched him play against the Pac 10. i didn't see him running between the tackles with any consistency. they used white for that. i'm telling you, you can't do that in the NFL.

[Texas Stoke]

Reggie Bush = Dave Megget

[IC2000]

Reggie Bush = Dave Megget

ok i can play that crap too

Vince Young= Kordell Stewart

[RocketFan007]

ESPNews will air the Bush press conference at 12:30 CST.

[Desert Scar]

Again it is not only Bush's speed that makes him special, it is his ability to change directions. How many USC games have you actually seen? These bunk ass comparison to people like Metcalf, Howard, and the Rocket are flat out silly. Just because Bush has great hands and enpugh speed to play some WR doesn't mean he cannot run in between the tackles, or that he will turn into another Desmond Howard.

I watched over half the college football games Reggie Bush has played in. Well more than half this year.

Speed and change of direction isn't enough in the pros for a RB. Pro LBs and DBs may not be as fast as Bush, but they are fast enough and study tape enough to not let him get the edge. Except for 1 play the Texas Longhorns--an outstanding and fast college defense, but no where near comparable to the worst of the pro defenses--was good enough to take out his running and SC turned to White instead.

Reggie Bush has shown no where near the ability to run between the tackles the way Faulk, Dorsett, Sanders, Dickerson, Thomlinson, Allen, etc had already shown in the college ranks. I haven't seen him block much either, another requirement for the elite pro workhorse backs (though in fairness most of these guys didn't block much in college either). This doesn't mean he can't learn to be a complete RB, or that he won't be a great runner between the tackles with an instinctive feel for using blocks and slipping tackles in tight space--but we don't have a lot of evidence for it yet. It is a big leap to just assume he will have it. It is no bigger of an assumption that Vince Young will have no problem grasping an NFL offense than to assume Reggie Bush will transition to a workhorse do it all back who excells between the tackles.

Also--
Reggie Bush has a 8.7 average. But lets put some things in perspective: LenDale has a 6.6 average.
Desmond Reed (3rd string USC) has 7.2 average.

Off of Texas:
Vince Young has a 6.8 average
Jamaal Charles has a 7.4 average
Ramonce Taylor has a 6.8 average

All of these figures reflect tremendous Olines overmatching all Dlines they faced and where these guys were men among boys athletically. They are irrelevant to the pros.

Further, when you consider LenDale got most of the short yardage carries and most redzone carriers this not only deflates his average but shows Bush probably got a lot more favorable situations for potentially long plays (3rd and longs, misdirections, etc). I can tell you both players rarely got hit behind the line of scrimmage and typically had mammouth holes to run through.

I am not sure I understand everyone's fascination with inside runners.

I think guys like Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Thurman Thomas, OB, Marcus Allen and Curtis Martin are why. Some of them like Bush were wicked fast and quick and spectacular in the open field--Sanders, OJ, Dorsett, Faulk, AND some of the greatists who ever played were slower than your average pro DB--Emmitt, Payton, Martin--but all of them were great between the tackles and in tight space. Perhaps Bush has that ability, but he was a heck of lot less proven as a pure runner who you hand the ball to over and over than any of these guys. So when someone says Bush is as "sure of thing" as an elite pro RB prospect in recent memory, I wonder what pro game they watch.

[Nick]

So I guess the motto of both sides arguments is.... good o-lines win football games.

Hmm.... I'm suddenly revisiting a much debated topic throughout the year...

[ima_drummer2k]

ESPNews will air the Bush press conference at 12:30 CST.
Anybody watching or listening, please update all of us working stiffs as soon as he makes the announcement. :D

[rusHour]

reggie bush goes to nfl

[NIKEstrad]

He's coming out.

[RocketFan007]

Bush says he's going to the NFL.

[reggietodd]

YES.

Texans Rejoice Bush going Pro. www.espn.com.

Thank God.

[OldManBernie]

Well I'm not rejoicing... :(

[noscrusir]

Seems like its Bush or trade down for D'Brick

[candlegreen]

Well I'm not rejoicing... :(

that really is the best thing that could happen to the value of that #1 pick.... Well, I take that back. If Bush doesn't come out, Titans go on panic mode and might offer a package for that pick.

[MadMax]

that really is the best thing that could happen to the value of that #1 pick.... Well, I take that back. If Bush doesn't come out, Titans go on panic mode and might offer a package for that pick.

in my opinion...there is no greater value that can be had with that pick for the HOUSTON TEXANS than taking VY.

[reggietodd]

I'm now waiting on Chance's prediction.

If he is right, i'll put it in my Sig.

[DUCK2324]

I love BUSH

[thirdcoastTXpulse]

BUSCH!!!!!!!!!

[Clutch]

in my opinion...there is no greater value that can be had with that pick for the HOUSTON TEXANS than taking VY.

Man, it's amazing how 4 months (or, one game) can change a LOT of opinions.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=101724

I love, love, love Vince Young. I watched him play in high school. I love the Horns. But I wouldn't spend a #1 pick on the guy thinking he's going to play QB for me...for the very same reasons I wouldn't do that with Vick.

...

no..i wouldn't want to select vince young with a #1 pick because there'd be other options which would be better with that pick.

AND I LOVE VINCE YOUNG!!!

Not picking on you Max... my opinion on Young's NFL future changed also. But I think people need to realize both Bush and Young were unreal in college and both got a lot of media play. The Texans will be able to do a lot of evaluations between now and the draft and fight through the hype (I hope anyhow).

[RocketMan Tex]

Memo to MadMax....you just got nailed by THE ADMINISTRATOR!

Be careful how you sit down this afternoon....last time Clutch nailed me like this I had to put an inner tube on my office chair!

;) :D

[DaDakota]

Man, it's amazing how 4 months (or, one game) can change a LOT of opinions.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=101724



Not picking on you Max... my opinion on Young's NFL future changed also. But I think people need to realize both Bush and Young were unreal in college and both got a lot of media play. The Texans will be able to do a lot of evaluations between now and the draft and fight through the hype (I hope anyhow).

Some of us have been on the Vince bandwagon all along...especially this year.

Vince and Reggie are both special, but I prefer to have a QB be the team leader....and if I had a choice between a special RB or QB....I take the QB hands down.

DD

[MadMax]

Man, it's amazing how 4 months (or, one game) can change a LOT of opinions.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=101724



Not picking on you Max... my opinion on Young's NFL future changed also. But I think people need to realize both Bush and Young were unreal in college and both got a lot of media play. The Texans will be able to do a lot of evaluations between now and the draft and fight through the hype (I hope anyhow).


Who's opinion on VY DIDN'T change in the last 4 months??? Seriously...we have MORE information now then we did then. The guy has played about twice as many games at the college level as he had by the time I said that.

I have maintained over and over again that taking ANY player is a risk. You have no idea how anyone is going to turn out. I think the potential upside of VY is so great both on and off the field, that I think it's where the highest value is. Would I have said that back in early to mid September?? Clearly not. But the information is in. All that's left are combines and wunderlich tests. There aren't any more games to show the rest of the NFL what great football players they are.

...and if VY breaks his leg tomorrow on the way to McDonald's, my opinion might change again.

[Bogey]

in my opinion...there is no greater value that can be had with that pick for the HOUSTON TEXANS than taking VY.

Normally I respect your opinion MadMax, but since I believe both you and Chance have stated your more VY fans than Texan fans and will become fans of whatever team he is on, I stopped valuing your opinion on what's best for the Texans.

Not trying to just pick on you Max, but it seems that too many people in Houston are so focused on VY that it is imposible to have an unbiased opion. I don't blame you b/c if A&M had a player of his calliber, I would probably be the same way.

[reggietodd]

Man, it's amazing how 4 months (or, one game) can change a LOT of opinions.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=101724

http://x12.putfile.com/1/1113542081.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

[Desert Scar]

Reggietodd, dude, you are setting yourself up to be quite the idiot. Maybe you have already succeeded.

Others have corrected about the erroneous Texans’ story that they had committed to Bush without fully evaluating him in person, or alternatives.

It is a long time before draft day and if the Texans’ are run worth a darn all options for using or trading the #1 pick will be considered.

So make your case for Bush, fine, leave it at that.

[gucci888]

http://x12.putfile.com/1/1113542081.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

Reggie- Weren't you the one calling UT fans "classless" because some were calling you out on the dumb predictions you made in the RoseBowl forum?

What do you call this?

[SamFisher]

What do you call this?

...somebody who needs to learn how to use the "draw opaque" function on MS-Paint....?

[gucci888]

...somebody who needs to learn how to use the "draw opaque" function on MS-Paint....?

^ Not sure what you mean by that Sam, but I just don't like posters who cry about something in one thread and then does it in another thread worse.

But then again, maybe I'm expecting too much from a forum.

[reggietodd]

Reggietodd, dude, you are setting yourself up to be quite the idiot. Maybe you have already succeeded.

Others have corrected about the erroneous Texans’ story that they had committed to Bush without fully evaluating him in person, or alternatives.

It is a long time before draft day and if the Texans’ are run worth a darn all options for using or trading the #1 pick will be considered.

So make your case for Bush, fine, leave it at that.

Do you think I care if people on a bbs message board think i'm an idiot? I have a lot of fun on here. Its all in good fun.

The Texans ARE NOT drafting a quarterback with the #1 overall pick. I think many of us realize that. And its quite entertaining to see how many think they they are even considering drafing VY, much less a QB.

I'm fighting the good fight. I know many many agree with me, but they are just keeping quiet. Go read any other message board, go read the aggie message board. There is even a thread over there about they boycotting 610 because of their sickening longhorn love. Houston, Texas is not made up of Longhorns only. It is made up of Horns, Aggies, Cougers, Owls, Red Raiders, and Lumberjacks to name a few. I'm a Couger, and i'm a bit upset that UH basketball isn't getting more coverage on 610 so I'm starting to side with the Aggies on their stance.

That being said, i'm also a Houston Texan fan. Not die hard, because they haven't been around long enough, but I want them to do whats right, not whats "Popular". So don't tell me to "make my case for Bush and leave it at that", if aren't telling MadMax to "make his case and leave it as well". Hell, do you have any idea how many times he's posted in this thread? Even the admin of the freaking board pointed it out, and took a shot at him, above. So don't call me an idiot. I was wrong about the outcome of the USC Texas game, along with thousands of others in this world and the sports betting world. Big deal. Texas won by 3 on a last second touchdown. I'm such an idiot. :rolleyes:

As long as MadMax & co. bring up their case for VY to the Texans, I will be right there defending my stance for drafting Bush. I'm fighting the good fight for myself and for those who choose to not speak up.

[stevel]

I watched over half the college football games Reggie Bush has played in. Well more than half this year.

Speed and change of direction isn't enough in the pros for a RB. Pro LBs and DBs may not be as fast as Bush, but they are fast enough and study tape enough to not let him get the edge. Except for 1 play the Texas Longhorns--an outstanding and fast college defense, but no where near comparable to the worst of the pro defenses--was good enough to take out his running and SC turned to White instead.

Reggie Bush has shown no where near the ability to run between the tackles the way Faulk, Dorsett, Sanders, Dickerson, Thomlinson, Allen, etc had already shown in the college ranks. I haven't seen him block much either, another requirement for the elite pro workhorse backs (though in fairness most of these guys didn't block much in college either). This doesn't mean he can't learn to be a complete RB, or that he won't be a great runner between the tackles with an instinctive feel for using blocks and slipping tackles in tight space--but we don't have a lot of evidence for it yet. It is a big leap to just assume he will have it. It is no bigger of an assumption that Vince Young will have no problem grasping an NFL offense than to assume Reggie Bush will transition to a workhorse do it all back who excells between the tackles.

Also--
Reggie Bush has a 8.7 average. But lets put some things in perspective: LenDale has a 6.6 average.
Desmond Reed (3rd string USC) has 7.2 average.

Off of Texas:
Vince Young has a 6.8 average
Jamaal Charles has a 7.4 average
Ramonce Taylor has a 6.8 average

All of these figures reflect tremendous Olines overmatching all Dlines they faced and where these guys were men among boys athletically. They are irrelevant to the pros.

Further, when you consider LenDale got most of the short yardage carries and most redzone carriers this not only deflates his average but shows Bush probably got a lot more favorable situations for potentially long plays (3rd and longs, misdirections, etc). I can tell you both players rarely got hit behind the line of scrimmage and typically had mammouth holes to run through.



I think guys like Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett, Thurman Thomas, OB, Marcus Allen and Curtis Martin are why. Some of them like Bush were wicked fast and quick and spectacular in the open field--Sanders, OJ, Dorsett, Faulk, AND some of the greatists who ever played were slower than your average pro DB--Emmitt, Payton, Martin--but all of them were great between the tackles and in tight space. Perhaps Bush has that ability, but he was a heck of lot less proven as a pure runner who you hand the ball to over and over than any of these guys. So when someone says Bush is as "sure of thing" as an elite pro RB prospect in recent memory, I wonder what pro game they watch.

Look, let's say that LenDale is a 10 at running inside and an 8 at going outside. Clearly Bush is a 10 going outside and say he is an 8 going inside. If you have both on the same team, why not let each do what they do best. It doesn't mean that White cannot run outside or that Bush cannot run inside. I keep pointing out Sanders, Martin, Faulk, Smith, ect because people keep saying "There's no way he can run inside" or "There is no way he can take the pounding" If these guys did it, I don't see why he can't. Just because he did not do it USC doesn't mean he cannot do it all. I think part of good coaching is letting guys do what they do best, but that doesn't mean that they cannot do the other at all (if that makes sense). White had a terrific game against Texas (I think) becuase they are a smallish but fast D, he did not have the same luck against ND, which has more size on D. Bush was the guy that killed them (I am a HUGE ND fan).

Running inside is nothing more than seeing the hole and hitting it hard. That is all there is to it (I used to play some RB and QB). You don't have to run guys over to be a good inside runner, you just have to have good vision to find the hole and have enough discipline to hit it. Following blockers and setting up blocks is the same whether you are inside or outside. Again Dunn is a terrific inside runner and he is smaller than Bush. BTW, if you still have the game on tape (rose bowl) go back to I believe the 1st and watch Bush aboslutely run over one of the DBs for Texas.

If they hire Kubiak (which I hope they do) we will use a zone blocking scheme. All the backs have to do is find a crease and hit it. With Bush's speed I can guarantee there will be ALOT of cutback lanes because if you don't bust ass to the outside to cut him off then he WILL get the corner on you.

The bottom line with any draft prospect Bush, Young etc.. is NO ONE knows until they get to pros. I just get a little tired of people making silly comparisons, and I bet have the people haven't seen more than the Rose Bowl as a sample size. I will tell you this, I have a feeling Bush will post some absurd 40 and T drill times if they even let run.

[stevel]

i'm not comparing him to howard or metcalf as a running back. howard was a flat-out receiver...not a running back at all. however, both of those guys could change directions with the best of them...particularly desmond. his highlight film would look every bit as impressive, if not more so, than bush's.

i did watch bush play. i watched him play against the Pac 10. i didn't see him running between the tackles with any consistency. they used white for that. i'm telling you, you can't do that in the NFL.

Again, I think that you did not see Bush go between the tackles because they had LenDale. LenDale may be a better inside runner, but that doesn't mean Bush cannot do it. If I were coaching and had a hoss like White and speed freak like Bush I would probably use them the same way USC. That doesn't mean White cannot get to the corner or that Bush cannot go between the tackles.

[Harrisment]

Memo to MadMax....you just got nailed by THE ADMINISTRATOR!

Be careful how you sit down this afternoon....last time Clutch nailed me like this I had to put an inner tube on my office chair!

;) :D

That sounds painful. :)

[jopatmc]

Normally I respect your opinion MadMax, but since I believe both you and Chance have stated your more VY fans than Texan fans and will become fans of whatever team he is on, I stopped valuing your opinion on what's best for the Texans.

Not trying to just pick on you Max, but it seems that too many people in Houston are so focused on VY that it is imposible to have an unbiased opion. I don't blame you b/c if A&M had a player of his calliber, I would probably be the same way.

Yes, it is just about impossible if you live in H-Town to have an unbiased opinion. That's a problem if it's the wrong opinion. Hakeem was a very biased opinion also. Was it the wrong opinion?

A biased opinion is not always the wrong opinion.

Here would be a great poll question to run nationwide. Do you think that Vince Young will be a superstar game changing quarterback in the NFL? Yes or No.

I would bet that 75% of the nation would vote Yes.


The question the Texans will be answering is who will help us win more games and more Super Bowls, Vince or Reggie? That's it. If they draft Reggie, and leave Carr as our starting QB, they are saying they think they will win more games and more Super Bowls than if they draft any other player and make what other ancillary moves to go along with that draft pick.



In the Hakeem MJ draft, common sense said we should go with Hakeem, the big man over the MJ the swingman. All things being equal you always take big over small. In that case, heads and hearts agreed. But what if Hakeem were from Chapel Hill and MJ were from Houston? Heads would have said Hakeem, hearts would have said MJ. The great what if. What would the Rockets have done? They'd probably have still drafted Hakeem. After all, they left Rashard crying in the green room. No reason to think they would have taken MJ over Hakeem. Except.........................................can you imagine the public outcry if MJ were from here and the Rockets didn't draft him and he went to Chicago and won 6 championships? Yeah, we would have still had our 2 rings. But would we be content with that? Nope, we'd always be bringing up the fact that we could've had MJ and gotten 6.

By the same token, if MJ had been rated just a little bit better than Hakeem and if Hakeem had been rated as questionmark and as a toss up with Sam Bowie over who was the better player, the fans of Houston would still have been screaming for Akeem the Dream.......just like they were anyway. And you know what........we would still be happy with our 2 rings......just like we are now. And you know what........if we didn't have a ring to show for Hakeem's career............we would all say, "Oh well, we coulda won those 6 rings with Jordan.....but there was no way the Rockets could pass up on the local product..Phi Slamma Jamma, etc. etc. etc. We would have justified Hakeem's career and his selection by our local team. Even if Hakeem and Sam Bowie traded places, and Bowie been the player that was great and Hakeem the player whose career was cut short, we would all look back at that draft with the "Oh well, we had to do it." It would not cause us to not be fans of our team.

Unless one thing. Unless we had an owner the equivalent of Donald Sterling who didn't care about winning. But we didn't and we don't. That's what makes the difference. Winning owners and general managers keep making the changes necessary to produce winners. We would have still won enough games to have a solid fan base, and we would have still had good players here, even if Hakeem blew out a knee his rookie season and never played again.

You see, there is this synergy that comes along only every so often. A synergy that is unique to Lebron James and his hometown Cleveland Cavaliers, Hakeem and the Rockets, Clemens and the Astros, where an outstanding athlete with superstar potential or who is a superstar already comes along with the opportunity to be the name on the face of the local franchise. Yeah, Lebron may blow out a knee and never be the same player while Carmelo goes on to win multiple rings. So what. The Cavaliers made the right choice, no matter what the results will be in the future. They drafted the hometown superstar. There wasn't even a debate. Even though all the junk was going on with his mother and the big SUV and the autographed merchandise, etc. etc. Even though Melo was in college winning a national championship. They took the hometown superstar. Yeah, Roger might eat up $15-$20 million of salary next year and blow out his rotator cuff the first time he steps on the mound in June. But you gotta sign him up and take the risk if you can get him. Yeah, Hakeem could have been Sam Bowie, yeah, he could have bolted during his contract negotiations, yeah, MJ could have not retired and the Rockets never won anything.

I just don't see how the Texans are going to be able to get around drafting Vince Young. If the kid goes to Tennessee and wins a couple Super Bowls, the franchise will kick itself and will have to listen a ton of negative sentiment from the locals for at least a couple decades. By the same token, if the kid stays in Houston and plays for the Texans, the stadium will be sold out for every game he is barking behind center, win or lose, and if he falls on his face and we have to start over again, the fan base as a whole will say, "Oh well, we had to take him, he's from Houston.." And we'll start over again rooting for our team to become champions. The franchise won't have a negative mark on it.

By the same token, if the Texans draft Bush, and Young goes elsewhere, the Texans are going to have to significantly outperform whatever team Young is playing on for the period of Young's career. Otherwise the fans will be constantly reminding the franchise about what could have been.

Some things are just bigger than numbers on a stat sheet. Some things cannot be quantified with stop watches, and salary slots, and depth charts. This is one of dem things. How could the Texans not take this kid, with all the potential, with all the risk of failure, and eliminate the "what ifs..." for the next couple decades??

The Texans need to draft Vince Young. It could turn out great, you never know.

[OldManBernie]

Running inside is nothing more than seeing the hole and hitting it hard. That is all there is to it (I used to play some RB and QB). You don't have to run guys over to be a good inside runner, you just have to have good vision to find the hole and have enough discipline to hit it. Following blockers and setting up blocks is the same whether you are inside or outside. Again Dunn is a terrific inside runner and he is smaller than Bush. BTW, if you still have the game on tape (rose bowl) go back to I believe the 1st and watch Bush aboslutely run over one of the DBs for Texas...

The bottom line with any draft prospect Bush, Young etc.. is NO ONE knows until they get to pros. I just get a little tired of people making silly comparisons, and I bet have the people haven't seen more than the Rose Bowl as a sample size. I will tell you this, I have a feeling Bush will post some absurd 40 and T drill times if they even let run.

Running inside is more than seeing the hold and hitting it hard. For one thing, you want a running back that consistently fall forward after taking a hit. The most important thing is that he needs to be able to stay healthy if he runs inside. Otherwise, we end up with a Ki-Jana Carter.

Personally, I'd rather have a runner that can get 3-5 yards on each carry than to have one that gets 1-3 and can break out a long run every once in a while. A power running game is so vital to getting 1st downs and getting more favorable 3rd down situations. I'm not making any generalizations about Bush here, but I think LenDale is that 3-5 yards per carry runner.

I only wish there was a drill at the combine that can tell the Texans how durable a player is because I don't think anyone knows just how durable RB is going to be.

[oomp]

Hell, do you have any idea how many times he's posted in this thread?

I don't really see your beef reggie. You do know that Texas won and are the National Champs, right? This is every Longhorn fan's bragging right until someone knocks them off. Vince won the game, fans are excited about it. Let it go.

If the Cougars did something to be worth talking about, maybe they would get more attention. Sucking against Kansas really doesn't deserve that much airtime.

I like Bush because I don't want the Texans to start over. I want them to build. I think Bush would be a great step in the right direction. Actually, I am more of a fan of selling off the top pick for more future picks, but I don't think the Texans will do that. If they take VY, I'm still going to root for them but I'll feel like we ended up right back at square one.

[stevel]

Running inside is more than seeing the hold and hitting it hard. For one thing, you want a running back that consistently fall forward after taking a hit. The most important thing is that he needs to be able to stay healthy if he runs inside. Otherwise, we end up with a Ki-Jana Carter.

Personally, I'd rather have a runner that can get 3-5 yards on each carry than to have one that gets 1-3 and can break out a long run every once in a while. A power running game is so vital to getting 1st downs and getting more favorable 3rd down situations. I'm not making any generalizations about Bush here, but I think LenDale is that 3-5 yards per carry runner.

I only wish there was a drill at the combine that can tell the Texans how durable a player is because I don't think anyone knows just how durable RB is going to be.

You must have LOVED Eddie George! Don't underestimate the importance of having HR hitter as well though. There were several games that we would have run if DD had more break away speed. You also bring up a good point wtih durability. No one knows about ANY RB. Carter was a big dude and pretty good inside runner and blew his knee out a couple of times and was done. The one thing about the shifty backs is that they seem to be able to avoid the big hit.

I would be fine if they traded down and got a couple of picks for our top pick and draft White. I think he will be a good one. I like all different types of RBs my two all time favorites were Bo and Earl. I do like watching Reggie run though. I think if they did take Bush I would like to see Wells used as a FB. No one uses the FB anymore. One of the reasons SF was so good back in the day is you had to defend the WRs, TE, HB, AND FB. Rathman was great to watch too.

[Desert Scar]

Its all in good fun.
.

OK, I'll lighten up a bit.


The Texans ARE NOT drafting a quarterback with the #1 overall pick. I think many of us realize that. And its quite entertaining to see how many think they they are even considering drafing VY, much less a QB.

....but I want them to do whats right, not whats "Popular". So don't tell me to "make my case for Bush and leave it at that", if aren't telling MadMax to "make his case and leave it as well". Hell, do you have any idea how many times he's posted in this thread? Even the admin of the freaking board pointed it out, and took a shot at him, above......

As long as MadMax & co. bring up their case for VY to the Texans, I will be right there defending my stance for drafting Bush. I'm fighting the good fight for myself and for those who choose to not speak up.

Madmax is open to changing his mind, that what was pointed out. Madmax posts with some humility as well.

But what is odd to me is this, you said...

Vince Young is the black Jesus. The best college quarterback I have seen in my short lifetime.

Given you said VY is the best you have seen at the D1 level why would you want the Texans to lock into Bush with the #1 pick without fully evaluting the best college football quarterback you have ever seen?

As an aside I think there is more anti-VY stuff in Texas than anywhere (well maybe in Oklahoma and Arkansas too). There are a lot of people that hate the Longhorns. Most others outside of Texas are just saying, damn, that is the best college football player I have ever seen.

[MadMax]

Normally I respect your opinion MadMax, but since I believe both you and Chance have stated your more VY fans than Texan fans and will become fans of whatever team he is on, I stopped valuing your opinion on what's best for the Texans.

Not trying to just pick on you Max, but it seems that too many people in Houston are so focused on VY that it is imposible to have an unbiased opion. I don't blame you b/c if A&M had a player of his calliber, I would probably be the same way.


wow...this is getting a little more personal than i'd hoped for a football discussion. oh, well.

i don't recall asking you to value or respect my opinion. it's really not a condition precedent to my posting here. you're free to disagree as vehemently as you wish. whether you value it or not, my opinion is still my opinion.

[underoverup]

The Texans ARE NOT drafting a quarterback with the #1 overall pick.

Bush 215
Young 3 fumbles 2 int

More predictions please. :D

[MadMax]

Again, I think that you did not see Bush go between the tackles because they had LenDale. LenDale may be a better inside runner, but that doesn't mean Bush cannot do it. If I were coaching and had a hoss like White and speed freak like Bush I would probably use them the same way USC. That doesn't mean White cannot get to the corner or that Bush cannot go between the tackles.


right...which brings me back to my point: we don't know.

[Desert Scar]

.....I keep pointing out Sanders, Martin, Faulk, Smith, ect because people keep saying "There's no way he can run inside" or "There is no way he can take the pounding" If these guys did it, I don't see why he can't. Just because he did not do it USC doesn't mean he cannot do it all. I think part of good coaching is letting guys do what they do best, but that doesn't mean that they cannot do the other at all (if that makes sense). White had a terrific game against Texas (I think) becuase they are a smallish but fast D, he did not have the same luck against ND, which has more size on D. Bush was the guy that killed them (I am a HUGE ND fan).

Running inside is nothing more than seeing the hole and hitting it hard. That is all there is to it (I used to play some RB and QB). You don't have to run guys over to be a good inside runner, you just have to have good vision to find the hole and have enough discipline to hit it. Following blockers and setting up blocks is the same whether you are inside or outside. Again Dunn is a terrific inside runner and he is smaller than Bush. BTW, if you still have the game on tape (rose bowl) go back to I believe the 1st and watch Bush aboslutely run over one of the DBs for Texas.

The bottom line with any draft prospect Bush, Young etc.. is NO ONE knows until they get to pros. I just get a little tired of people making silly comparisons, and I bet have the people haven't seen more than the Rose Bowl as a sample size. I will tell you this, I have a feeling Bush will post some absurd 40 and T drill times if they even let run.

Running inside is a heck of lot more than hitting a hole fast and hard at the pro level. How many backs are too impatient to wait for the hole to develop and reading the key blocks, how many are too indecisive, and what a fine line it is. I keep pointing out Sanders, Martin, Faulk, Smith because they showed that kind of instinctive between the tackles ability as an everydown workhorse back in college. Bush might develop it, or he might not. Dunn is small yes, but he always was terrific in close space and instinctively reading blocks--all the way from FSU to Florida high school days. Bush's style really is quite different. Doesn't mean he can't adapt, but it should not be assumed.

You must have LOVED Eddie George! Don't underestimate the importance of having HR hitter as well though. There were several games that we would have run if DD had more break away speed. You also bring up a good point wtih durability. No one knows about ANY RB. Carter was a big dude and pretty good inside runner and blew his knee out a couple of times and was done. The one thing about the shifty backs is that they seem to be able to avoid the big hit.


Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton, two of the top 4 backs of all time, wouldn't have impressed in 40 yard dashes or drills. They also got caught behind a lot. But what they brought (relentless 1st down churning, primarily between the tackles) is far more important as an NFL RB than breakway speed and open field moves.

I think there are a lot bigger questions about Reggie Bush being a great pro back than people realize. I am not saying he won't be a great one, but there are missing pieces of evidence right now, there are leaps of faith one must make. Had he been a relentless TB who carried the ball over and over and wearing down opponents along withg his open field explosiveness like LT or Faulk or Sanders or Dorsett showed I'd feel much mroe confident in him as a #1 overall pick.

But I also am open minded. If Bush shows phenom workouts (4.25 40, 500lb squats) perhaps you take him overall #1 despite some areas you just don't know about and can't know about because his real time football career is over until the draft (durability as a workhorse, between the tackles instincts). Likewise if VY arm and/or mental abilities are sub-par for a Pro QB that further makes the case for Bush greater.

Either way folks should be open minded and I think way too many people are dismissive about VY. Certainly there was no doubt who the best college football was last year and a good case can be made no college player has ever shown the athleticism, size, compusure and leadership that VY flashed. Those are things were evident not just on the track or from inidividual workouts but what was done on the field, and how one could not at least consider him as an overall #1 does not make sense to me. "Need" here is irrelevant. If you think you have a guy somewhere between Joe Montana and John Elway you take him regardless who your current QB is. If you think VY has things that will keep him from the that level, but Bush projects as between Faulk/Sanders as an NFLer you take him. If they both are at that level you take VY, because after all, he is a quarterback.

[DVauthrin]

Just a thought to ponder:

Let's say that ESPN doesn't drastically impact the Heisman voting after Fresno State(Vince was ahead all season until then by most reports), and Vince wins the Heisman, along with the NC. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[IC2000]

Just a thought to ponder:

Let's say that ESPN doesn't drastically impact the Heisman voting after Fresno State(Vince was ahead all season until then by most reports), and Vince wins the Heisman, along with the NC. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.
:rolleyes:

Yea espn decided the heisman , hahaahaha. Thats what a bitter person will use as an excuse.

it wasn't because Bush won it :rolleyes: , Vince had his chance to outshine Bush against the worse defense in college football (my aggies) and he sucked it up. He did outshine him in the rose bowl, but it was too late then.

PS What does the heisman have to do with the #1 pick?

[Lil Francis]

More predictions please. :D Here is one for you: Bush in 06! You can bet the farm on that. Im 99.9999999999% sure we will take him.

[The Cat]

Go read any other message board, go read the aggie message board. There is even a thread over there about they boycotting 610 because of their sickening longhorn love.

So you're trying to form a foundation for a supposedly logical argument by referencing a thread from Texags? That's funny stuff.

it wasn't because Bush won it , Vince had his chance to outshine Bush against the worse defense in college football (my aggies) and he sucked it up. He did outshine him in the rose bowl, but it was too late then.

Vince's performance against A&M wasn't any worse than Bush's performance against California and a few other teams. You just didn't hear about it for days on ESPN.

[Lil Francis]

Oh yeah sig bets to anybody who thinks it won't be Bush Time in 06. I'll put as many sigs as I can put if im wrong.

[DaDakota]

Here is one for you: Bush in 06! You can bet the farm on that. Im 99.9999999999% sure we will take him.

Then let's bet....partner....put up or shut up.

Sig bet for 30 days....deal?

DD

[IC2000]

So you're trying to form a foundation for a supposedly logical argument by referencing a thread from Texags? That's funny stuff.



Vince's performance against A&M wasn't any worse than Bush's performance against California and a few other teams. You just didn't hear about it for days on ESPN.

Because it was not crunch time for voting

[IC2000]

So you're trying to form a foundation for a supposedly logical argument by referencing a thread from Texags? That's funny stuff.



Vince's performance against A&M wasn't any worse than Bush's performance against California and a few other teams. You just didn't hear about it for days on ESPN.

A&M had the worse passing defense in the nation , there were no excuses after that game. He simply played terrible.

[IC2000]

So you're trying to form a foundation for a supposedly logical argument by referencing a thread from Texags? That's funny stuff.





You are pathetic, no aggies have logical arguments :rolleyes:

You are not biased at all

[DVauthrin]

:rolleyes:

Yea espn decided the heisman , hahaahaha. Thats what a bitter person will use as an excuse.

it wasn't because Bush won it :rolleyes: , Vince had his chance to outshine Bush against the worse defense in college football (my aggies) and he sucked it up. He did outshine him in the rose bowl, but it was too late then.

PS What does the heisman have to do with the #1 pick?

Bush had a few mediocre games during the season while Vince built the heisman lead, and poof after Fresno State, it was all Reggie all the time. Vince shouldn't have had to "trump" that performance. In fact, he had a better performance of his own at OSU(500 plus passing/rushing yards). If you dare say OSU sucked:

a) They beat tech
b) Fresno State proved to be mediocre as well after the USC game

And what does this have to do with the pick? If Vince won the Heisman, he'd have the award that signifies best college player(offensive usually) in America to go along with his National Title performance and being a hometown guy. There would be little to no chance of the Texans passing on him in such a scenario.

It's Reggie Bush's Heisman trophy that is making this debate what it is right now.

[The Cat]

Because it was not crunch time for voting

So a game Nov. 12 isn't in the crunch time, but a game Nov. 19 is? I've got a hard time believing that. I've seen this for years. There is no precise "crunch time" for voting. Each year's "crunch time" is whatever weeks of the year that the media's consensus Heisman picks do well... there's no consistency to it.

[IC2000]

It's Reggie Bush's Heisman trophy that is making this debate what it is right now.

ok... its official !! You make no sense whatsoever

[IC2000]

Bush had a few mediocre games during the season while Vince built the heisman lead, and poof after Fresno State, it was all Reggie all the time. Vince shouldn't have had to "trump" that performance. In fact, he had a better performance of his own at OSU(500 plus passing/rushing yards). If you dare say OSU sucked:

a) They beat tech
b) Fresno State proved to be mediocre as well after the USC game

And what does this have to do with the pick? If Vince won the Heisman, he'd have the award that signifies best college player(offensive usually) in America to go along with his National Title performance and being a hometown guy. There would be little to no chance of the Texans passing on him in such a scenario.

It's Reggie Bush's Heisman trophy that is making this debate what it is right now.


The best part about all this. The voting was not even close. It was the biggest margin EVER!!!!

[MadMax]

The best part about all this. The voting was not even close. It was the biggest margin EVER!!!!

do you think it should have been that disproportionate?

[DVauthrin]

ok... its official !! You make no sense whatsoever

I make perfect sense:

If everything else was equal and Vince won the Heisman, I don't think the Texans even consider passing on him. That would mean they passed on the best offensive player in CFB with Houston ties(money for the team) at a premium position for a RB not from houston who didn't get the award for best college football player of 2005-2006.

They would get run out of town if they did that because David Carr is not an elite QB by any standard.

[Lil Francis]

Then let's bet....partner....put up or shut up.

Sig bet for 30 days....deal?

DD Deal. From May 1st until June 1st. Once we draft Bush you have to put "Bush >>>>>>>>>>> Young" on your sig. Deal???

[IC2000]

do you think it should have been that disproportionate?

No, it should/ could have been closer. But Bush deserved it.

[DVauthrin]

The best part about all this. The voting was not even close. It was the biggest margin EVER!!!!

Do you have reading comprehension skills at all? The vote was directly influenced by ESPN/other media outlets and their pumping of Reggie Bush after Fresno State.

[IC2000]

I make perfect sense:

If everything else was equal and Vince won the Heisman, I don't think the Texans even consider passing on him. That would mean they passed on the best offensive player in CFB with Houston ties(money for the team) at a premium position for a RB not from houston who didn't get the award for best college football player of 2005-2006.

They would get run out of town if they did that because David Carr is not an elite QB by any standard.

the heisman means nothing in the nfl

eric crouch, torreta, jason white etc. etc...

Why the hell would the texans care who won the heisman.

oh because the texans are brainwashed by espn to pick bush :rolleyes:

[The Cat]

A&M had the worse passing defense in the nation , there were no excuses after that game. He simply played terrible.

You'll have a hard time convincing any logical fans that the quarterback of a team who scored 40 points played terrible. He certainly didn't play his best, but terrible is an incredible overstatement.

If you want to play the "bad defense" card, Fresno State had a defense in the bottom half nationally and UCLA was dead last in rush defense... so Reggie's supposed "winning" performances also should be downgraded because of his lack of competition. Also, Arizona had a rush defense around 100, and Bush had fewer total yards against Arizona than Young did against Texas A&M.

You are pathetic, no aggies have logical arguments.

Texags is a site that's called for boycotts of campus bookstores, Aggie football games (their own team!) and sports radio stations among numerous other things. Texags is a site that to this day refers to Vince as "radio" and other related terms that of course are not close to accurate. To refer to a thread on that site for a measure of objectivity about the Longhorns (or much of anything, for that matter) is a little ridiculous to say the least.

[IC2000]

Do you have reading comprehension skills at all? The vote was directly influenced by ESPN/other media outlets and their pumping of Reggie Bush after Fresno State.

says who some idiot UT fan?

What are they supposed to do? not applaud Bush for his amazing performance, not show the highlights?

Everyone was tuning in to see what Bush did, why because it was amazing. He put his team on his back that game. The defense was getting lit up by fresno. If you remember Fresno was a top 20 team. They lost a heartbreaker and then collapsed the rest of the season (prob due to the usc game).

[The Cat]

The best part about all this. The voting was not even close. It was the biggest margin EVER!!!!

Sorta like David Robinson's 1995 MVP, huh?

[IC2000]

You'll have a hard time convincing any logical fans that the quarterback of a team who scored 40 points played terrible. He certainly didn't play his best, but terrible is an incredible overstatement.

If you want to play the "bad defense" card, Fresno State had a defense in the bottom half nationally and UCLA was dead last in rush defense... so Reggie's supposed "winning" performances also should be downgraded because of his lack of competition. Also, Arizona had a rush defense around 100, and Bush had fewer total yards against Arizona than Young did against Texas A&M.



Texags is a site that's called for boycotts of campus bookstores, Aggie football games (their own team!) and sports radio stations among numerous other things. Texags is a site that to this day refers to Vince as "radio" and other related terms that of course are not close to accurate. To refer to a thread on that site for a measure of objectivity about the Longhorns (or much of anything, for that matter) is a little ridiculous to say the least.


Against arizona 14 carries for 110, that is a lot better than Vince against the aggies

[DVauthrin]

the heisman means nothing in the nfl

eric crouch, torreta, jason white etc. etc...

Why the hell would the texans care who won the heisman.

oh because the texans are brainwashed by espn to pick bush :rolleyes:

You continue to miss the point. How typical. If Vince won the Heisman, the most prestigious award in CFB(ie the best player award) and Bush didn't, Vince would be considered the best college player coming out(like some consider Reggie now). That plus his Houston ties and the need at QB in Houston would make it near impossible for them to take anyone else.

[The Cat]

says who some idiot UT fan?

What are they supposed to do? not applaud Bush for his amazing performance, not show the highlights?

Everyone was tuning in to see what Bush did, why because it was amazing. He put his team on his back that game. The defense was getting lit up by fresno. If you remember Fresno was a top 20 team. They lost a heartbreaker and then collapsed the rest of the season (prob due to the usc game).

In other words, Bush should get rewarded because his defense sucks?

[IC2000]

You continue to miss the point. How typical. If Vince won the Heisman, the most prestigious award in CFB(ie the best player award) and Bush didn't, Vince would be considered the best college player coming out(like some consider Reggie now). That plus his Houston ties and the need at QB in Houston would make it near impossible for them to take anyone else.

The heisman means nothing, jason white won it and he was not even drafted. He was "the best college player coming out". Bush is considered first becuase he is arguably the best prospect in the draft.

[The Cat]

Against arizona 14 carries for 110, that is a lot better than Vince against the aggies

The game is about making positive yards, which in turn gives you a better chance to score points. Young created more yards against a terrible A&M pass defense than Bush did against a terrible Arizona run defense.

[BigM]

I make perfect sense:

If everything else was equal and Vince won the Heisman, I don't think the Texans even consider passing on him. That would mean they passed on the best offensive player in CFB with Houston ties(money for the team) at a premium position for a RB not from houston who didn't get the award for best college football player of 2005-2006.

They would get run out of town if they did that because David Carr is not an elite QB by any standard.


you think the heisman is something the texans are even thinking about when evaluating bush and young? both players had great season and pro scouts don't need to see an award to justify their evaluations. i honestly would be happy with either guy but the biggest factor in the debate is not the heisman, it's the fact that vince is a hometown guy that went to texas. if he was from florida and just won the rose bowl as a gator 80% or possibly more of the draft vince or die crowd would not be around.

[IC2000]

In other words, Bush should get rewarded because his defense sucks?

Wrong Bush should be rewarded for having a great game and carrying his team to the victory. His defense being bad is not a reward, it was another problem for him to deal with.

[IC2000]

The game is about making positive yards, which in turn gives you a better chance to score points. Young created more yards against a terrible A&M pass defense than Bush did against a terrible Arizona run defense.

QBS are expected to get more yards than RBS. Even you should know that

[DVauthrin]

says who some idiot UT fan?

What are they supposed to do? not applaud Bush for his amazing performance, not show the highlights?

Everyone was tuning in to see what Bush did, why because it was amazing. He put his team on his back that game. The defense was getting lit up by fresno. If you remember Fresno was a top 20 team. They lost a heartbreaker and then collapsed the rest of the season (prob due to the usc game).

It was no more amazing than Vince's game at Oklahoma State, except that the announcers did not spend a month hyping that game afterwards. And that excuse Fresno collapsed after USC holds little to no weight and can't be proven. They had a chance at their outright conference title and lost two straight, then to Tulsa in the bowl game. They did not just quit after USC, at least that would be sad for Fresno as a program period.

[IC2000]

It was no more amazing than Vince's game at Oklahoma State, except that the announcers did not spend a month hyping that game afterwards. And that excuse Fresno collapsed after USC holds little to no weight and can't be proven. They had a chance at their outright conference title and lost two straight, then to Tulsa in the bowl game. They did not just quit after USC, at least that would be sad for Fresno as a program period.

What about the ucla game?

[The Cat]

Wrong Bush should be rewarded for having a great game and carrying his team to the victory. His defense being bad is not a reward, it was another problem for him to deal with.

Carrying his team to victory? Mr. Clutch... err, Bush, fumbled a kickoff on his own 15-yard line in the fourth quarter to give Fresno State the lead in the biggest game of his life. He then compounded the error by committing a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on the next kickoff.

His defense being bad, however, is still a reward. If Bush had Texas' defense, for example, the game likely would not have been as close, and then he would not have been credited for "dealing with the problem" and "carrying his team to the victory", would he?

[gucci888]

Wrong Bush should be rewarded for having a great game and carrying his team to the victory.

So the same goes for VY in the RoseBowl right? Or no?

[The Cat]

QBS are expected to get more yards than RBS. Even you should know that

And that is a large part of the case to draft Vince.

If you have two very good players available, quarterbacks are inherently more valuable.

[DVauthrin]

What about the ucla game?

What did that have to do with anything? Vince had a great game vs Colorado in little over one half of action that same day.

[IC2000]

So the same goes for VY in the RoseBowl right? Or no?
After the Voting, so it did not matter

[IC2000]

Carrying his team to victory? Mr. Clutch... err, Bush, fumbled a kickoff on his own 15-yard line in the fourth quarter to give Fresno State the lead in the biggest game of his life. He then compounded the error by committing a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on the next kickoff.

His defense being bad, however, is still a reward. If Bush had Texas' defense, for example, the game likely would not have been as close, and then he would not have been credited for "dealing with the problem" and "carrying his team to the victory", would he?

"if" does not matter, if vince was on the aggies he would not have sniffed the heisman

He then came back and made a clutch catch and run, right after the penalty. And the fumble is no different then a turnover vince had against osu.

[The Cat]

"if" does not matter, if vince was on the aggies he would not have sniffed the heisman

He then came back and made a clutch catch and run, right after the penalty. And the fumble is no different then a turnover vince had against osu.

Nice diversion from the obvious fact that Bush not having a defense was the main factor in his Heisman campaign.

And yes, Bush's fumble was very different. Vince didn't turn the ball over with only 6 point lead in the fourth quarter and on his own 15-yard line. It's a little different when it's in the first quarter and first half.

[IC2000]

Nice diversion from the obvious fact that Bush not having a defense was the main factor in his Heisman campaign.



What the hell does that mean? Anyways I am not going to argue about the heisman anymore. Reggie won it fair and square. A record breaking landslide vote. The only reason I started with this was because of the idiot who said we wanted bush because of the heisman. He also said that espn got him the heisman. Both were great college players with questions marks going into the pros. In my opinion Bush will be a better pro than Vince. Vince seems like too big of a risk in my opinion due to him never taking snaps under center or forced to put the ball in tight spots.

[DVauthrin]

What the hell does that mean? Anyways I am not going to argue about the heisman anymore. Reggie won it fair and square. A record breaking landslide vote. The only reason I started with this was because of the idiot who said we wanted bush because of the heisman. He also said that espn got him the heisman. Both were great college players with questions marks going into the pros. In my opinion Bush will be a better pro than Vince. Vince seems like too big of a risk in my opinion due to him never taking snaps under center or forced to put the ball in tight spots.

1) I gave a hypothetical situation. If Vince had the Heisman(which eliminates a lot of the reggie hype quite frankly) on top of how things played out, not to mention his houston roots, it is more than fair to wonder if the team/fans would be having this debate. Personally, I don't think they would.

2) ESPN heavily influenced the Heisman voting. The ridiculous margin of victory proves it. It was A) debatable Bush was better B) and Vince was decently ahead in all the straw polls pre Fresno State. That margin of victory came from the Fresno State game, and all the attention Bush received because of it. The Gale Sayers comparisons didn't come out in full force until after Fresno. Heck, in an article published after the Fresno game Darren Woodson on SI.com(former NFL safety) said Bush was the best player this year in both college and the NFL. After Fresno, Vince would have needed Reggie to bomb vs UCLA and to have the type of game he did have vs Colorado in the big 12 title game. That was unlikely, and it didn't happen.

[Icehouse]

What the hell does that mean? Anyways I am not going to argue about the heisman anymore. Reggie won it fair and square. A record breaking landslide vote. The only reason I started with this was because of the idiot who said we wanted bush because of the heisman. He also said that espn got him the heisman. Both were great college players with questions marks going into the pros. In my opinion Bush will be a better pro than Vince. Vince seems like too big of a risk in my opinion due to him never taking snaps under center or forced to put the ball in tight spots.

Yes, and Bush showed he was clearly better during the Rose Bowl, by making stupid laterals and not even being on the field for crucial 4th downs.

I think it's kind of sad when my QB has more rushing yards than your Heisman RB.

[MadMax]

never...forced to put the ball in tight spots.

you mean like this??

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/vucp2oes.jpg

[IC2000]

1) I gave a hypothetical situation. If Vince had the Heisman(which eliminates a lot of the reggie hype quite frankly) on top of how things played out, not to mention his houston roots, it is more than fair to wonder if the team/fans would be having this debate. Personally, I don't think they would.

2) ESPN heavily influenced the Heisman voting. The ridiculous margin of victory proves it. It was A) debatable Bush was better B) and Vince was decently ahead in all the straw polls pre Fresno State. That margin of victory came from the Fresno State game, and all the attention Bush received because of it. The Gale Sayers comparisons didn't come out in full force until after Fresno. Heck, in an article published after the Fresno game Darren Woodson on SI.com(former NFL safety) said Bush was the best player this year in both college and the NFL. After Fresno, Vince would have needed Reggie to bomb vs UCLA and to have the type of game he did have vs Colorado in the big 12 title game. That was unlikely, and it didn't happen.

1. Your Point 1 was the worse thing the bbs has seen since i argued reggie mcneal vs young.

2. How do we know who influences the voting (again this is just bitterness)? You do realize that the fresno game really happened right? Espn did not just make up the highlights and stats, or play clips of a video game. When players do amazing things , it makes espn. Speaking of bombing thats exactly what vince did against A&M. This was the game after the fresno game, it was his chance to shine against the worse defense in football. What happened (he stunk up the place)? Turnovers, overthrows,sacks. Reggie then sealed it by having a similar game against ucla.

[IC2000]

Yes, and Bush showed he was clearly better during the Rose Bowl, by making stupid laterals and not even being on the field for crucial 4th downs.

I think it's kind of sad when my QB has more rushing yards than your Heisman RB.

Its not sad when your QB had 200 yards. Lets base the pick on one game. :rolleyes:

[IC2000]

you mean like this??

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/vucp2oes.jpg

yea remember that time when vince put the ball in that tight spot.

Yes i do remember THAT TIME, it was so rare I actually know exactly which play you are talking about
:D

[MadMax]

yea remember that time when vince put the ball in that tight spot.

Yes i do remember THAT TIME, it was so rare I actually know exactly which play you are talking about
:D

you know because it won the 2nd biggest game of the year.

honestly, now...how often did you watch UT this year? seriously. be honest. go back and watch the championship game....he did put the ball in tight spots when he needed to. he had the luxury of not having to force it too often because of his legs, admittedly.

[IC2000]

you know because it won the 2nd biggest game of the year.

honestly, now...how often did you watch UT this year? seriously. be honest. go back and watch the championship game....he did put the ball in tight spots when he needed to. he had the luxury of not having to force it too often because of his legs, admittedly.

yes it was not his fault but it now is his problem

[DVauthrin]

1. Your Point 1 was the worse thing the bbs has seen since i argued reggie mcneal vs young.

2. How do we know who influences the voting (again this is just bitterness)? You do realize that the fresno game really happened right? Espn did not just make up the highlights and stats, or play clips of a video game. When players do amazing things , it makes espn. Speaking of bombing thats exactly what vince did against A&M. This was the game after the fresno game, it was his chance to shine against the worse defense in football. What happened (he stunk up the place)? Turnovers, overthrows,sacks. Reggie then sealed it by having a similar game against ucla.

1) No, it wasn't. If you think that Reggie Bush and the hype that came with him in the process of winning the Heisman trophy is not an instrumental factor in him still being heavily involved in the texans draft discussion when a local boy turned Rose Bowl MVP is all theirs for the taking, you are fooling yourself.

2) It is one thing to make ESPN for a day. They talked about it for weeks afterwards. Vince did not get the same treatment after Ok State, and he had just as good an effort.

3) When you are leading the race all season, and then your number 1 opponent finally has a good game, the race should not have been decided on the leader's next performance. It's about looking at the whole body of work, not one game.

[IC2000]

1) No, it wasn't. If you think that Reggie Bush and the hype that came with him in the process of winning the Heisman trophy is not an instrumental factor in him still being heavily involved in the texans draft discussion when a local boy turned Rose Bowl MVP is all theirs for the taking, you are fooling yourself.

2) It is one thing to make ESPN for a day. They talked about it for weeks afterwards. Vince did not get the same treatment after Ok State, and he had just as good an effort.

3) When you are leading the race all season, and then your number 1 opponent finally has a good game, the race should not have been decided on the leader's next performance. It's about looking at the whole body of work, not one game.

Why was bugh getting the hype... hmnnnn?

I still do not get your first point, as if our staff would only want bush becuase of hype and the heismann. Speaking of hype right now , did somebody say Vince Young?

[rrj_gamz]

This is crazy..Yes, Bush is good, but Vince has so much more upside and at the key position, QB...Either one will breathe new life to whatever Franchise picks them...This is a Houston website, so naturally, there is a lot of Vince Young support, however, VY deserves it not only here, but nationally as well (see past two Rose Bowl games) and he's done it consistently in his college career...He left college at the highpoint, just as you should (Hell, even George Costanza know this)...

VY should be a Texan, but I'm not sure it'll happen...

[DVauthrin]

Why was bugh getting the hype... hmnnnn?

I still do not get your first point, as if our staff would only want bush becuase of hype and the heismann. Speaking of hype right now , did somebody say Vince Young?

Let me see if I can break this down for you. Bush got the hype after the Fresno game, to a much greater extent than Vince did after OK state. Then, if Bush didn't win the Heisman and Vince did, plus everything else stayed constant(Rose Bowl outcome), you would have a running back with no major award going up against a QB with the Heisman, a Rose Bowl MVP, National Championship and not to mention he is from the city of the franchise that owns the number one pick. It would be a no contest discussion. Can you really not get this? Bush and Young are similarly rated prospects. If you flip the results of the one thing that was not taken care of when they played each other on the field(the Heisman), plus add in the Vince-Houston connection, the team would undoubtedly take Vince in such a scenario.

The flipping of the Heisman would give Vince the trophy of best college player this year that Bush currently has now. That is incredibly important in a debate like this, with one of the two players being Houston born and raised.

[KingCheetah]

you mean like this??

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/vucp2oes.jpg


Hello, IC2000...

http://tinypic.com/k3ook9.jpg

[YaoMing]

Do you think I care if people on a bbs message board think i'm an idiot? I have a lot of fun on here. Its all in good fun.

The Texans ARE NOT drafting a quarterback with the #1 overall pick. I think many of us realize that. And its quite entertaining to see how many think they they are even considering drafing VY, much less a QB.

I'm fighting the good fight. I know many many agree with me, but they are just keeping quiet. Go read any other message board, go read the aggie message board. There is even a thread over there about they boycotting 610 because of their sickening longhorn love. Houston, Texas is not made up of Longhorns only. It is made up of Horns, Aggies, Cougers, Owls, Red Raiders, and Lumberjacks to name a few. I'm a Couger, and i'm a bit upset that UH basketball isn't getting more coverage on 610 so I'm starting to side with the Aggies on their stance.

That being said, i'm also a Houston Texan fan. Not die hard, because they haven't been around long enough, but I want them to do whats right, not whats "Popular". So don't tell me to "make my case for Bush and leave it at that", if aren't telling MadMax to "make his case and leave it as well". Hell, do you have any idea how many times he's posted in this thread? Even the admin of the freaking board pointed it out, and took a shot at him, above. So don't call me an idiot. I was wrong about the outcome of the USC Texas game, along with thousands of others in this world and the sports betting world. Big deal. Texas won by 3 on a last second touchdown. I'm such an idiot. :rolleyes:

As long as MadMax & co. bring up their case for VY to the Texans, I will be right there defending my stance for drafting Bush. I'm fighting the good fight for myself and for those who choose to not speak up.

Im right here are the front lines with you, but dont worry as Reggie will lead us to the promise land on Draft day. We will get back on the boards with "I told you so" posts. This is all as clear as day what is going to happen. It only becomes foggy to all those UT fans. We need to extract the Burnt Orange that is seeping through thier vains and maybe they will see straight.

Reggie Bush's #1 Fan

[gucci888]

There is even a thread over there about they boycotting 610 because of their sickening longhorn love. Houston, Texas is not made up of Longhorns only. It is made up of Horns, Aggies, Cougers, Owls, Red Raiders, and Lumberjacks to name a few. I'm a Couger, and i'm a bit upset that UH basketball isn't getting more coverage on 610 so I'm starting to side with the Aggies on their stance.


So I guess 610's coverage has nothing to do with the fact that VY is the most popular ATHLETE in the nation right now and just so happens to have been born and raised in our own backyard. Radio shows need to talk about whats popular, they need listeners, right now, VY is the talk of the town. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a Longhorn.

Seriously, what is there to talk about the Aggies, Cougers, Owls, etc...? What exciting news do they bring to the table? The answer is none.

Im right here are the front lines with you, but dont worry as Reggie will lead us to the promise land on Draft day. We will get back on the boards with "I told you so" posts. This is all as clear as day what is going to happen. It only becomes foggy to all those UT fans. We need to extract the Burnt Orange that is seeping through thier vains and maybe they will see straight.

Reggie Bush's #1 Fan

Why is it that anyone that wants VY is a UT fan? Is it possible that folks see what VY can bring to the franchise on and off the field?

I love it how anyone that wants VY is biased and that a lot of the anti-VY posters were UT-haters in the first place, but thats not considered biased.

[DaDakota]

Deal. From May 1st until June 1st. Once we draft Bush you have to put "Bush >>>>>>>>>>> Young" on your sig. Deal???


If that is what you want, I prefer to make something up after the draft...

You are free to do the same.

A trade nullifies the bet.....ok?

DD

[stevel]

Running inside is a heck of lot more than hitting a hole fast and hard at the pro level. How many backs are too impatient to wait for the hole to develop and reading the key blocks, how many are too indecisive, and what a fine line it is. I keep pointing out Sanders, Martin, Faulk, Smith because they showed that kind of instinctive between the tackles ability as an everydown workhorse back in college. Bush might develop it, or he might not. Dunn is small yes, but he always was terrific in close space and instinctively reading blocks--all the way from FSU to Florida high school days. Bush's style really is quite different. Doesn't mean he can't adapt, but it should not be assumed.



Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton, two of the top 4 backs of all time, wouldn't have impressed in 40 yard dashes or drills. They also got caught behind a lot. But what they brought (relentless 1st down churning, primarily between the tackles) is far more important as an NFL RB than breakway speed and open field moves.

I think there are a lot bigger questions about Reggie Bush being a great pro back than people realize. I am not saying he won't be a great one, but there are missing pieces of evidence right now, there are leaps of faith one must make. Had he been a relentless TB who carried the ball over and over and wearing down opponents along withg his open field explosiveness like LT or Faulk or Sanders or Dorsett showed I'd feel much mroe confident in him as a #1 overall pick.

But I also am open minded. If Bush shows phenom workouts (4.25 40, 500lb squats) perhaps you take him overall #1 despite some areas you just don't know about and can't know about because his real time football career is over until the draft (durability as a workhorse, between the tackles instincts). Likewise if VY arm and/or mental abilities are sub-par for a Pro QB that further makes the case for Bush greater.

Either way folks should be open minded and I think way too many people are dismissive about VY. Certainly there was no doubt who the best college football was last year and a good case can be made no college player has ever shown the athleticism, size, compusure and leadership that VY flashed. Those are things were evident not just on the track or from inidividual workouts but what was done on the field, and how one could not at least consider him as an overall #1 does not make sense to me. "Need" here is irrelevant. If you think you have a guy somewhere between Joe Montana and John Elway you take him regardless who your current QB is. If you think VY has things that will keep him from the that level, but Bush projects as between Faulk/Sanders as an NFLer you take him. If they both are at that level you take VY, because after all, he is a quarterback.

I agree with what you are saying. I have seen him show patience and set up blocks so well outside I see no reason to think he wouldn't be able to do it inside as well. When you say we are missing evidence I'll agree to that. I think both VY and RB will be terrific. I think you'll see it sooner from RB, but that is normal. RBs tend to show be able to adapt more quickly than QBs. I also think you'll see numbers from Bush like you were talking about. However, they don't squat at the combine.

[IC2000]

Let me see if I can break this down for you. Bush got the hype after the Fresno game, to a much greater extent than Vince did after OK state. Then, if Bush didn't win the Heisman and Vince did, plus everything else stayed constant(Rose Bowl outcome), you would have a running back with no major award going up against a QB with the Heisman, a Rose Bowl MVP, National Championship and not to mention he is from the city of the franchise that owns the number one pick. It would be a no contest discussion. Can you really not get this? Bush and Young are similarly rated prospects. If you flip the results of the one thing that was not taken care of when they played each other on the field(the Heisman), plus add in the Vince-Houston connection, the team would undoubtedly take Vince in such a scenario.

The flipping of the Heisman would give Vince the trophy of best college player this year that Bush currently has now. That is incredibly important in a debate like this, with one of the two players being Houston born and raised.


this is just all flat out wrong. Why would anyone care about heisman's and awards? The draft is all about prospects, not awards. THE HEISMAN HAS NO EFFECT ON WHO WILL BE PICKED FIRST. Young WAS the leader because of the OK State game. Bush had an impressive game against fresno and never looked back. While the games that followed also had an effect on the heisman and draft position, the actual award means nothing to anyone in the NFL. Even if Bush would have lost the voting (which he could not have because of his performances), he would still be the top prospect. Surely even other VY educated supporters can agree that if Bush had not won the heisman it would not matter in his draft status.

[IC2000]

Hello, IC2000...

http://tinypic.com/k3ook9.jpg

I am not sure what any of that means, but i would be glad to see other nfl type throws in coverage. That is the only one people ever mention

[IC2000]

So I guess 610's coverage has nothing to do with the fact that VY is the most popular ATHLETE in the nation right now and just so happens to have been born and raised in our own backyard. Radio shows need to talk about whats popular, they need listeners, right now, VY is the talk of the town. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a Longhorn.

Seriously, what is there to talk about the Aggies, Cougers, Owls, etc...? What exciting news do they bring to the table? The answer is none.



Why is it that anyone that wants VY is a UT fan? Is it possible that folks see what VY can bring to the franchise on and off the field?

I love it how anyone that wants VY is biased and that a lot of the anti-VY posters were UT-haters in the first place, but thats not considered biased.

Sorry I have to touch this one

Of course any "Radio" show will talk about Vince ;)

[DVauthrin]

this is just all flat out wrong. Why would anyone care about heisman's and awards? The draft is all about prospects, not awards. THE HEISMAN HAS NO EFFECT ON WHO WILL BE PICKED FIRST. Young WAS the leader because of the OK State game. Bush had an impressive game against fresno and never looked back. While the games that followed also had an effect on the heisman and draft position, the actual award means nothing to anyone in the NFL. Even if Bush would have lost the voting (which he could not have because of his performances), he would still be the top prospect. Surely even other VY educated supporters can agree that if Bush had not won the heisman it would not matter in his draft status.

When two prospects are considered similar in class talent wise and aren't solely system players(see Bush/Vince), it does matter. I never said it always plays a role, you did. Part of bush's prospect status is tied directly to him winning the Heisman trophy and the hype he received in the process. How do you think he got compared to Sayers and other NFL greats? Why do you think people are talking about a 15 carry per game guy in college for the number 1 pick in April? Heisman, which was won on the Fresno State game. Btw, if you agree Vince was ahead in the race after OSU, then why is it that Bush got a free pass for a blah game vs cal(17 carries 82 yards no td's) the same week Vince put up 281 yards and 4 td's in essentially one half of work vs Kansas. That game could have "cemented" it for Vince, but instead it doesn't really boost his advantage and at the first sight of a Bush good game vs Fresno the following week he gets passed. And don't tell me nobody else had a game like that because Vince did in Stillwater.

It would matter in his draft status to the Texans and that is the point. In order to take Bush, they would have to pass up a Houston native, Rose Bowl MVP, Heisman trophy winning quarterback in such a scenario. Furthermore, you are deluding yourself if you think that people wouldn't consider Vince the top prospect if he had the Heisman over Reggie. Right now, look at the fan support for Vince with Reggie being the Heisman winner. If Vince had taken home that award too, it would be a landslide decision to draft Vince.

In fact, since you are so adamant that the Heisman has no effect in the debate we have now, why don't we take it away from the discussion period? That leaves Reggie up against a fellow stud prospect who happens to be the Rose Bowl MVP(with one of the best games ever), with 60% completion percentage/ridiculously good efficiency rating at QB(not to mention he ran for over 1000 yards at QB) and houston native without anything significant other than his YPC average on his resume. Then why isn't Vince the clear cut choice right now. He sells more tickets here, and has better accomplishments on his resume, along with being considered virtually Bush's equal talent wise.

[IC2000]

When two prospects are considered similar in class talent wise and aren't solely system players(see Bush/Vince), it does matter. I never said it always plays a role, you did. Part of bush's prospect status is tied directly to him winning the Heisman trophy and the hype he received in the process. How do you think he got compared to Sayers and other NFL greats? Why do you think people are talking about a 15 carry per game guy in college for the number 1 pick in April? Heisman, which was won on the Fresno State game. Btw, if you agree Vince was ahead in the race after OSU, then why is it that Bush got a free pass for a blah game vs cal(17 carries 82 yards no td's) the same week Vince put up 281 yards and 4 td's in essentially one half of work vs Kansas. That game could have "cemented" it for Vince, but instead it doesn't really boost his advantage and at the first sight of a Bush good game vs Fresno the following week he gets passed. And don't tell me nobody else had a game like that because Vince did in Stillwater.

It would matter in his draft status to the Texans and that is the point. In order to take Bush, they would have to pass up a Houston native, Rose Bowl MVP, Heisman trophy winning quarterback in such a scenario. Furthermore, you are deluding yourself if you think that people wouldn't consider Vince the top prospect if he had the Heisman over Reggie. Right now, look at the fan support for Vince with Reggie being the Heisman winner. If Vince had taken home that award too, it would be a landslide decision to draft Vince.

In fact, since you are so adamant that the Heisman has no effect in the debate we have now, why don't we take it away from the discussion period? That leaves Reggie up against a fellow stud prospect who happens to be the Rose Bowl MVP(with one of the best games ever), with 60% completion percentage/ridiculously good efficiency rating at QB(not to mention he ran for over 1000 yards at QB) and houston native without anything significant other than his YPC average on his resume. Then why isn't Vince the clear cut choice right now. He sells more tickets here, and has better accomplishments on his resume, along with being considered virtually Bush's equal talent wise.
This is my last response to your moronic arguments. I still don't see how you can't seem to realize that Reggie Bush would be an amazing prospect whether he won the heisman or not.(which he did in the biggest landslide vote ever for the heisman) THERE IS A REASON WHY HE IS ON ESPN, WON THE HEISMAN, RECEIVES ALL THIS HYPE AND ANALYSTS ARE SAYING HE MAY BE ONE OF THE BEST PROSPECTS EVER! :mad:




But due to your stupid arguments, I am now convinced Reggie should not have won the heisman (its espn's fault)! What Vince won the Rose Bowl MVP? Oh my God , then we have to take him! He will sell tickets for us! (what's that? we already sell out every game. ) We will now take Vince because of these reasons !!

Signed Charlie Casserly :rolleyes:

[Lil Francis]

If that is what you want, I prefer to make something up after the draft...

You are free to do the same.

A trade nullifies the bet.....ok?

DDThats cool. A trade seems to be option # 3 right now.

[gucci888]

Sorry I have to touch this one

Of course any "Radio" show will talk about Vince ;)

Do you not agree that all the coverage is due to the popularity of VY rather than just covering UT sports? Or did you actually think that was a funny comment?

[DVauthrin]

This is my last response to your moronic arguments. I still don't see how you can't seem to realize that Reggie Bush would be an amazing prospect whether he won the heisman or not.(which he did in the biggest landslide vote ever for the heisman) THERE IS A REASON WHY HE IS ON ESPN, WON THE HEISMAN, RECEIVES ALL THIS HYPE AND ANALYSTS ARE SAYING HE MAY BE ONE OF THE BEST PROSPECTS EVER! :mad:



Both Vince and Reggie are good/great prospects regardless, I didn't say anything otherwise. That isn't the point. The point is if Vince had won the Heisman and Reggie hadn't, odds are Vince would have the higher draft grade of the two at this time, and people would have pumping Vince to go out for the draft as the number 1 pick to his hometown team with him having the best draft grade of any prospect.

Secondly, the reason analysts are saying Bush is the best ever is because of the Fresno State game. However, I didn't see Vince get mentioned in the NFL great discussion after the Oklahoma State game. Sorry, but he received a vast majority of his hype due to one game vs Fresno State and ESPN pumping him as the Heisman winner for weeks afterwards, which they did not do with Vince after his 500 yard game at Oklahoma State. That is why the Heisman voting was ridiculously, and undeservedly one sided. If you really don't remember that, I can't help you there.




But due to your stupid arguments, I am now convinced Reggie should not have won the heisman (its espn's fault)! What Vince won the Rose Bowl MVP? Oh my God , then we have to take him! He will sell tickets for us! (what's that? we already sell out every game. ) We will now take Vince because of these reasons !!

Signed Charlie Casserly :rolleyes:

The Rose Bowl MVP was determined on the field in the national championship game. The Heisman had a lot of media influence involved in the final outcome, and always does. Big difference. Also, the Texans openly stated one reason for taking Bush(before Vince declared) was to excite the fanbase. Vince Young does that better than Reggie Bush, I don't see that being so hard to understand.

Lastly, my argument is not moronic/stupid/any other adjective you have used in this thread. All I was saying was if everything else stays the game and if the Heisman vote was flipped between the two(I personally think Vince deserved it more, but that isn't important for the sake of discussion), Vince Young would have been the one getting the hype/push to come out, and he would have been rated the number one prospect on the board. Therefore, it would be reasonable to say that if that all happened, the team would not be debating between Bush and Vince for all the factors would be in Vince's favor, not to mention he is from Houston and Bush isn't. (that is a bigger deal than you wish to admit) and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Why you can't grasp this concept is beyond me.

[wesnesked]

When two prospects are considered similar in class talent wise and aren't solely system players(see Bush/Vince), it does matter. I never said it always plays a role, you did. Part of bush's prospect status is tied directly to him winning the Heisman trophy and the hype he received in the process. How do you think he got compared to Sayers and other NFL greats? Why do you think people are talking about a 15 carry per game guy in college for the number 1 pick in April? Heisman, which was won on the Fresno State game. Btw, if you agree Vince was ahead in the race after OSU, then why is it that Bush got a free pass for a blah game vs cal(17 carries 82 yards no td's) the same week Vince put up 281 yards and 4 td's in essentially one half of work vs Kansas. That game could have "cemented" it for Vince, but instead it doesn't really boost his advantage and at the first sight of a Bush good game vs Fresno the following week he gets passed. And don't tell me nobody else had a game like that because Vince did in Stillwater.

It would matter in his draft status to the Texans and that is the point. In order to take Bush, they would have to pass up a Houston native, Rose Bowl MVP, Heisman trophy winning quarterback in such a scenario. Furthermore, you are deluding yourself if you think that people wouldn't consider Vince the top prospect if he had the Heisman over Reggie. Right now, look at the fan support for Vince with Reggie being the Heisman winner. If Vince had taken home that award too, it would be a landslide decision to draft Vince.

In fact, since you are so adamant that the Heisman has no effect in the debate we have now, why don't we take it away from the discussion period? That leaves Reggie up against a fellow stud prospect who happens to be the Rose Bowl MVP(with one of the best games ever), with 60% completion percentage/ridiculously good efficiency rating at QB(not to mention he ran for over 1000 yards at QB) and houston native without anything significant other than his YPC average on his resume. Then why isn't Vince the clear cut choice right now. He sells more tickets here, and has better accomplishments on his resume, along with being considered virtually Bush's equal talent wise.

You are going about this all wrong. I highly doubt anybody on this board doesn't think Vince is worthy of the #1 pick. I think it all comes down to need and want. The Texans seem very happy with Carr right now(at least that is what they are telling the public). They have a #1 running back who only seems to last about 9-10 games a season. It is very logical to assume with the scouting ranking that Reggie Bush will recieve that it is could be a need for the Texans. Talk all the stats and 'what ifs' that you want, but this whole draft comes down to the Texans evaluation of David Carr. Some may say that this doesn't matter and maybe you're right, but none of us are in these meetings and it all comes down to what McNair, Reeves, Casserly and Kubiak evaluate to make this team better NEXT YEAR.

[wesnesked]

Both Vince and Reggie are good/great prospects regardless, I didn't say anything otherwise. That isn't the point. The point is if Vince had won the Heisman and Reggie hadn't, odds are Vince would have the higher draft grade of the two at this time, and people would have pumping Vince to go out for the draft as the number 1 pick to his hometown team with him having the best draft grade of any prospect. .

I highly doubt that. Bush has been highly ranked for a while.

Secondly, the reason analysts are saying Bush is the best ever is because of the Fresno State game. However, I didn't see Vince get mentioned in the NFL great discussion after the Oklahoma State game. Sorry, but he received a vast majority of his hype due to one game vs Fresno State and ESPN pumping him as the Heisman winner for weeks afterwards, which they did not do with Vince after his 500 yard game at Oklahoma State. That is why the Heisman voting was ridiculously, and undeservedly one sided. If you really don't remember that, I can't help you there.
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I doubt that as well. Whether you like it or not, Bush had a really good season(1700 yds, 9 yds/carry). The ND game he had really put him in the driver seat. And maybe, just maybe the reason that Vince didn't get the pub after the OKSt. game was because OKSt. sucks. They were a horrible team this season and Texas was supposed to blow them out by 20-30 pts. The Heisman vote may have been decieded by one week, but nfl GM's don't care.




The Rose Bowl MVP was determined on the field in the national championship game. The Heisman had a lot of media influence involved in the final outcome, and always does. Big difference. Also, the Texans openly stated one reason for taking Bush(before Vince declared) was to excite the fanbase. Vince Young does that better than Reggie Bush, I don't see that being so hard to understand.

I never once heard anybody from the Texans talk about Bush and fanbase. And the reason I know this, is because he hadn't declared yet, so they couldn't talk about him. Any hype was all media driven.

[DVauthrin]

You are going about this all wrong. I highly doubt anybody on this board doesn't think Vince is worthy of the # 1 pick. I think it all comes down to need and want. The Texans seem very happy with Carr right now(at least that is what they are telling the public). They have a #1 running back who only seems to last about 9-10 games a season. It is very logical to assume with the scouting ranking that Reggie Bush will recieve that it is could be a need for the Texans. Talk all the stats and 'what ifs' that you want, but this whole draft comes down to the Texans evaluation of David Carr. Some may say that this doesn't matter and maybe you're right, but none of us are in these meetings and it all comes down to what McNair, Reeves, Casserly and Kubiak evaluate to make this team better NEXT YEAR.

I was just throwing out a perfectly logical situation. Then I get accused of saying the only reason Reggie Bush is a good NFL prospect is because of the Heisman and the hype he got during the process. Which wasn't what I was arguing/saying and I don't think that at all.

The whole point was if Vince was the one with the hype/comparison to NFL greats(like Reggie got) as he went on to win the Heisman he would have the highest draft grade because he then proved he was the better player on the field at the NC game, and the Texans would be zeroing in on him as the clearcut number 1 pick as his stock would be better than Bush's. That is before mentioning any hometown connection that helps Vince's case out even more.

I was never trying to say NFL teams look solely at the heisman to make draft evaluations/grades. In fact, in a lot of cases a system type player wins the award(see option QB's) or a QB like White who does not have the physical gifts of either Bush or Vince and obviously they wouldn't translate well to the NFL. But in this case, the 3 finalists for this year's award were all legit first round prospects, and after the Rose Bowl, ranked 1-3 on practically every draft board.

Lastly, I consider the team to need upgrades at both RB/QB so I was working under that premise.