[Official] Bush or Someone else-- Young out of running

[Castor27]

I am tired of seeing 15 new threads a day saying the same thing. This is the official thread to discuss the titles matter. All others started after this time will be deleted.

[Harrisment]

GREAT IDEA, Thanks Castor.

[rhester]

Young- Build for a Championship

[MadMax]

VY is supposed to be on 610 at about 9.

[DaDakota]

Vince Young will touch the ball all 70 offensive playes, Reggie will get it around 20.

Carr has had a chance to prove himself, and he has proven he is an average QB.

Bring in Vince.....he is a winner, and a freakish athlete at a position that has VERY few real athletic player, thus creating a major advantage against defenses in the NFL.

DD

[A-Train]

Here's a new thought. Pull a Mike Ditka and trade Carr plus every single pick in this draft (except the first rounder, of course) to the Saints and draft Young AND Bush. Then, grab a cheap RB and QB from the free agent market to take all the punishment next season. After a 1-15 season, then the Texans could draft Adrian Peterson and trade Bush for a bunch of picks, making up for some of the picks lost in this draft...

[DaDakota]

Here's a new thought. Pull a Mike Ditka and trade Carr plus every single pick in this draft (except the first rounder, of course) to the Saints and draft Young AND Bush. Then, grab a cheap RB and QB from the free agent market to take all the punishment next season. After a 1-15 season, then the Texans could draft Adrian Peterson and trade Bush for a bunch of picks, making up for some of the picks lost in this draft...


Great idea, and Casserly would be fired to boot....

Well done A-train !


DD

[Nashvegas]

I was all for Bush, but that was before Young came out.

Take VY, he's the hometown boy. Like somebody mentioned in another thread, it's like us taking Hakeem back in 84, it will revive us.

[RocketManJosh]

VY will be a big mistake.

My first opinion is to make a trade if a good deal makes itself available, otherwise take Reggie

[Drewdog]

Bush is the safe bet and he gives us IMMEDIATE help next year. As far as I am concerned he would be the biggest asset to help turn around the team next year. It would give David another weapon out of the backfield.

Casserly has already pledged his allegiance to David Carr. IMO the Texans brass will choose Reggie Bush.

Damn we are too spoiled....

[DaDakota]

Casserly has already pledged his allegiance to David Carr.

Which is a ringing endorsement for Young.

:D

[MadMax]

Bush is the safe bet and he gives us IMMEDIATE help next year. As far as I am concerned he would be the biggest asset to help turn around the team next year. It would give David another weapon out of the backfield.

Casserly has already pledged his allegiance to David Carr. IMO the Texans brass will choose Reggie Bush.

Damn we are too spoiled....

I really don't think it will play out this way. I don't think what Casserly says at this point matters at all. I think McNair will take control of this pick...and go with VY.

[DaDakota]

I really don't think it will play out this way. I don't think what Casserly says at this point matters at all. I think McNair will take control of this pick...and go with VY.


That is how I see it too, he will smell the dollar signs and view either player as a risk, but he wants to have the stadium full, and that is the most important thing....


DD

[rhester]

I really don't think it will play out this way. I don't think what Casserly says at this point matters at all. I think McNair will take control of this pick...and go with VY.

I disagree for this reason-

I think D. Reeves has big influence right now and I don't think McNair would over-rule Reeves and Casserly (Casserly maybe, but not both)

In the final analysis VY is a risk. One I feel we must take because he is so special and the potential is so great.

Reeves looks back at the Vick pick and has to have doubts. The verdict is out on that pick and there has been plenty of debate on it nationally.
Casserly really believes Carr can be very good. fine.

I think Reeves and Casserly are firmly looking to get a blockbuster trade or take Bush.

Bush is a short term fix for the offense. Under good coaching he can be productive, maybe great. Carr can be better with a good O-line and good offensive scheming to his strengths and weaknesses. So Bush is a safe pick.

What is sad is WHO we are passing up- VY will be great in the NFL- my opinion.

I would not pass up that kind of player.

Look at it this way if Bush becomes Barry Sanders and Young becomes Montana who is the better pick.

I like to frame the decision this way- If both Bush and Young have the same impact in the pros they did in college (if the potential translates) who would you draft?

[MadMax]

I disagree for this reason-

I think D. Reeves has big influence right now and I don't think McNair would over-rule Reeves and Casserly (Casserly maybe, but not both)

In the final analysis VY is a risk. One I feel we must take because he is so special and the potential is so great.

Reeves looks back at the Vick pick and has to have doubts. The verdict is out on that pick and there has been plenty of debate on it nationally.
Casserly really believes Carr can be very good. fine.

I think Reeves and Casserly are firmly looking to get a blockbuster trade or take Bush.

Bush is a short term fix for the offense. Under good coaching he can be productive, maybe great. Carr can be better with a good O-line and good offensive scheming to his strengths and weaknesses. So Bush is a safe pick.

What is sad is WHO we are passing up- VY will be great in the NFL- my opinion.

I would not pass up that kind of player.

Look at it this way if Bush becomes Barry Sanders and Young becomes Montana who is the better pick.

I like to frame the decision this way- If both Bush and Young have the same impact in the pros they did in college (if the potential translates) who would you draft?

the answer to your question is exactly why i think McNair steps in and takes Young. he's not a meddlesome owner...but he hired Reeves to advise HIM on what to do in football-related matters...which is a subtraction of power, by necessity, from casserly.

i think mcnair will see what an opportunity he has here...he doesn't live in a football bubble. he's hearing it now and it will continue to grow. he'll step in and take Young...and having an offseason where you're having a huge coaching transition, anyway, will facilitate that.

[leroy420]

Reggie Bush and VY are both freaks of nature. They can do amazing things with the ball in thier hand. What VY has proven that RB hasn't is the ability to carry a team. RB has always had LenDale White to take the short yardage carries and to give him plenty of breathers. Granted, RB does go in as wideout, kick returner and punt returner. I'm just not sold on his ability to take the punishment of a 16 game regular season. Is the #1 pick worth a player that will touch the ball as little as Bush will?

Vince Young will energize the club and the city. It may take a couple of years before we see what a truly special player he is. In the meantime, I believe that he has more than enough skill, smarts, and his amazing will to win to carry the team. He is the born leader that I'm not sure David Carr will ever be. That alone is reason enough to me to select VY #1.

My other reason for VY is Gary Kubiak. The Broncos have never needed a top running back because of the system. We've already got Domanick Davis who is a 1,000 yd back with great hands. Heck, I bet Johnathan Wells could be a 1,000 yd back under Kubiak.

Draft Vince Young. It's a gamble that is worth taking.

[rhester]

the answer to your question is exactly why i think McNair steps in and takes Young. he's not a meddlesome owner...but he hired Reeves to advise HIM on what to do in football-related matters...which is a subtraction of power, by necessity, from casserly.

i think mcnair will see what an opportunity he has here...he doesn't live in a football bubble. he's hearing it now and it will continue to grow. he'll step in and take Young...and having an offseason where you're having a huge coaching transition, anyway, will facilitate that.

OK- Max, my faith is strengthened! :)

[DaDakota]

Rhester....they are BOTH risks....

Is Vince Young the next John Elway, or the next Tim Couch?

Is Reggie Bush the next Barry Sanders or Curtis Ennis?

Neither one is a guaranteed player....both probably are, but no guarantees.

That is why I take the proven leader who will be involved in every offenseive snap over a player who has only been a situational player in college.

DD

[rhester]

Rhester....they are BOTH risks....

Is Vince Young the next John Elway, or the next Tim Couch?

Is Reggie Bush the next Barry Sanders or Curtis Ennis?

Neither one is a guaranteed player....both probably are, but no guarantees.

That is why I take the proven leader who will be involved in every offenseive snap over a player who has only been a situational player in college.

DD

I know 'it' when I see it.

Montana had it (I watched 'it' when he stuck a dagger in my heart in the Cotton Bowl)
MJordan had it
Tiger Woods has it

'it' is the ability to take incredible talent and elevate to a higher level at the 'moment of truth' and take control of the situation with poise and confidence. The ability and guts to take it on yourself and make the impact play.

few have 'it'- Vince has 'it'

[leroy420]

Look at it this way if Bush becomes Barry Sanders and Young becomes Montana who is the better pick.

I like to frame the decision this way- If both Bush and Young have the same impact in the pros they did in college (if the potential translates) who would you draft?

That's it right there. If they both live up to the hype and potential, which one helps a team win more? Barry Sanders is one of my all time favorite football players. I believe he is one of the top 3 RB's of all time. However, it wasn't enough for Detroit to be a contender. They were competitive for most of his career because of him, but never a contender. Donovan McNabb carried his team without a star RB or WR (before Owens) to the NFC Championship game 3 years in a row. The Texans already have an Owens type WR in AJ. They've got a 1,000 yd back in DD. I firmly believe that VY is the missing link, offensively (still need to rebuild the defense and get a serviceable O-Line).

[Drewdog]

What baffles me is that everyone was dead set on drafting Reggie Bush or trading the pick, but with one stellar game by VY and his subsequent declaration to be in the NFL draft, has changed the gameplan completely.

Young is a special talent, but I think you make the safe choice here and draft Bush. At least that what my Vegas bet is going to be.

Either way, I think its a complete luxury to have the options we have at the first pick.

[MadMax]

What baffles me is that everyone was dead set on drafting Reggie Bush or trading the pick, but with one stellar game by VY and his subsequent declaration to be in the NFL draft, has changed the gameplan completely.


because before the one stellar game VY wasn't coming out. he stopped looking for agents.

[Groogrux]

What baffles me is that everyone was dead set on drafting Reggie Bush or trading the pick, but with one stellar game by VY and his subsequent declaration to be in the NFL draft, has changed the gameplan completely.

No one thought that Vince was coming out. There had been talk from people wanting us to get him next year. I remember posts from people who said that it'd be cool if we got Bush then tanked to get Young in the 2007 draft. His declaration for the NFL obviously changed everything.

[DaDakota]

What baffles me is that everyone was dead set on drafting Reggie Bush or trading the pick, but with one stellar game by VY and his subsequent declaration to be in the NFL draft, has changed the gameplan completely.

Young is a special talent, but I think you make the safe choice here and draft Bush. At least that what my Vegas bet is going to be.

Either way, I think its a complete luxury to have the options we have at the first pick.

You see, this is just wrong, I have been saying take Young all along.......not everyone was enamored with Reggie...

DD

[Drewdog]

No one thought that Vince was coming out. There had been talk from people wanting us to get him next year. I remember posts from people who said that it'd be cool if we got Bush then tanked to get Young in the 2007 draft. His declaration for the NFL obviously changed everything.

Why did it change everything? Why would it make the Texans think twice about drafting Reggie Bush? Especially since Casserly already said that Carr was their man at QB.

[leroy420]

No one thought that Vince was coming out. There had been talk from people wanting us to get him next year. I remember posts from people who said that it'd be cool if we got Bush then tanked to get Young in the 2007 draft. His declaration for the NFL obviously changed everything.

Yep...you have to think that the same talk would have started regarless of the Rose Bowl. His performance probably changed the minds of more than it would have had he been simply human in that game.

[Drewdog]

You see, this is just wrong, I have been saying take Young all along.......not everyone was enamored with Reggie...

DD

Im not enamored with him, I just think that he offers the best help for the Texans for the 2006 season. VY is a QB that would have to wait in the wings for a year or two.

[MadMax]

Why did it change everything? Why would it make the Texans think twice about drafting Reggie Bush? Especially since Casserly already said that Carr was their man at QB.

It changed everything because he wasn't available before...he is now.

Don't take Casserly's words too seriously. He still has to keep Carr's value up. He can't say, "eh..that's it. he's gone. we think we can do better." He wouldn't say it politically...and he wouldn't say it because it would diminish Carr's trade value. And it's still possible they could draft VY and Carr could be the starter next season.

[MadMax]

Im not enamored with him, I just think that he offers the best help for the Texans for the 2006 season. VY is a QB that would have to wait in the wings for a year or two.

i'm not piling on...

he probably does offer the best help for the Texans in 2006...but what does that mean? instead of 2 wins they win 4? i think the Texans need to be thinking long-term. i wouldn't count on great success in the short-term, no matter who they draft.

[MadMax]

wow..he just talked about getting so sick of hearing "reggie this...leinart this..this is what we're fixing to do" all that time while hanging out in LA waiting for the game. he said he was like, "alright..i'll let this build up in me and take it with me into the game."

love VY.

[Drewdog]

i'm not piling on...

he probably does offer the best help for the Texans in 2006...but what does that mean? instead of 2 wins they win 4? i think the Texans need to be thinking long-term. i wouldn't count on great success in the short-term, no matter who they draft.

Good point. I guess I am more concerned about winning sonner than later down the road.

[MadMax]

Good point. I guess I am more concerned about winning sonner than later down the road.

i hear ya. and i don't blame ya. i just don't think this team is one great rookie RB away from being a playoff contender. there's way too many holes on this team. i think they're essentially rebuilding..particularly when bringing in a new coach who we think is gonna change scheme.

if you're expecting even 6 wins...looking at their schedule...i think you're expecting way too much. this team was every bit as bad as their record indicated, no matter what anyone tells you.

[rhester]

Man- are you all listening to V Young on 610 right now-

WE'VE GOT TO DRAFT HIM

Too much class and you can tell he is going to succeed at the highest level!

[Groogrux]

Why did it change everything? Why would it make the Texans think twice about drafting Reggie Bush? Especially since Casserly already said that Carr was their man at QB.

It's like car shopping. You've chosen the Lexus without even looking at the Porsches because you didn't think one was going to be available in your price range. If you stumble across a Porsche in your price range, do you not take a look at it since you've already decided on the Lexus? Even though you'd really like the Porsche as well?

There's no point in advocating selecting a player in the draft when all signs pointed to that player not even being in the draft. Had VY announced in mid-December that he was coming out, you'd have heard a lot of talk about the Texans selecting him with their first pick before the Rose Bowl.

[rhester]

Sportsradio 610 said they would get the Vince Young interview up on the website-

Must listen to for this debate.

[wakkoman]

What baffles me is that everyone was dead set on drafting Reggie Bush or trading the pick, but with one stellar game by VY and his subsequent declaration to be in the NFL draft, has changed the gameplan completely.

Young is a special talent, but I think you make the safe choice here and draft Bush. At least that what my Vegas bet is going to be.

Either way, I think its a complete luxury to have the options we have at the first pick.

Have you actually watched Texas' last two seasons?

If you have, then you wouldn't have really been shocked by Vince's performace in the Rose Bowl. I know I wasn't

The fact is that Vince has had so many stellar games this season but of course BSPN continued their love fest with Reggie Bush all season. Vince pretty much only got coverage beating Ohio State, and the week around the Heisman. And even when it came for the Heisman, it was still Reggie Bush this , Reggie Bush that....

[VesceySux]

For the record, I like the idea of drafting VY, but it's still WAAAAAAY too early for all this. When the combines, Wonderlic tests, and individual workouts are all completed, get back to me. Committing to ONE player now, before the Super Bowl has even been played, is just asinine. Opinions on players WILL change. Draft rankings WILL change. Trust me. For 4 years, as the football editor, my job was to track NFL Draft prospects and select the best ones for trading card releases (including which players to sign to autograph deals). You'd be amazed what happens to opinions over the course of several months.

Vince or Bush? Christ, let's get a freaking coach first. Maybe even evaluate our crappy roster and see who's available in free agency.

[Desert Scar]

I brought this from another thread because I think Da Man hit a lot of issues I want to discuss. I don't think questioning Bush's between the tackles ability/instincts, his evidence for being a worhorse, and durability in the most short lived NFL position, are degrading him.

I'm tired of people degrading Reggie Bush, just to support their argument for Vince Young. I think both are tremendous prospects, and that we are very fortunate to have the opportunity in deciding the course of our franchise with the number 1 overall pick.

But let's clear up some things. Let's address all of the anti-Reggie Bush propaganda. Examples: "Reggie Bush will never be a workhorse back / Reggie Bush can't run between the tackles / Reggie didn't even have Pete Carroll's confidence in USC's most important game."

Fact, Reggie Bush carried the ball 200 times this year. He had more carries than LenDale White. Fact, Reggie Bush had 268 total touches this year (carries, catches, KR, PR). Carnell Williams and Ronnie Brown split carries their last year at Auburn. I don't remember hearing about a lot of durability issues about them coming out of college. Williams never had a season where he touched the ball more than 260 times at Auburn. Bush had 268 touches this year.

Let's take look at this small back / big back issue. Warrick Dunn and Mike Alstott. Warrick Dunn is 5'9", 180 lbs. He is a 9 year veteran and 31 years of age. He just rushed for 1400 yards this year with a 5.1 per carry average. Mike Alstott is the "Big Back" in the Bucs equation. 6'1", 248 lbs. 10 year veteran, 32 years of age. Mike Alstott is DONE! He hasn't been marginally effective since 2002. Warrick Dunn in college never had as many touches as Reggie Bush in College. In 1996, Dunn had only 219 touches at FSU.

Let's take a look at Tiki Barber. 5'10", 200 lbs. 9th NFL season, 30 years of age. He just rushed for 1800 yards this past season. Where's Ron Dayne? He of the great college stats, monster Rose Bowl games, and prototypical size.

How about Eddie George. After 9 NFL seasons, he's out of the league. Jerome Bettis stopped being a good every down back in 2001. Curtis Martin. All 5'10", 210 lbs lead the league in rushing last year and is a 11 year veteran.

If people are basing their claims that Bush cannot be an every down back because of his college career or his size, the evidence doesn't really support that claim. His 268 touches this past year is a pretty damn good workload. Size hasn't kept a lot of backs from being productive late in their careers. Running style is a bigger factor whether a back can be effective later in their careers. Barry Sanders proved that. Marcus Allen proved that. Tiki Barber, Curtis Martin, and Warrick Dunn are proving that. Power backs tend to have fewer "prime" years. Eddie George, Earl Campbell, Jerome Bettis, Natrone Means, Christian Okoye, and so forth.

Bush's running style precludes him from taking a lot of hits and I think that's going to help him stay healthy for his career.

Also, comparisons to Raghib Ismail and Desmond Howard are terrible. Ismail and Howard were wide receivers that returned kickoffs and punts. Their career paths are irrelevant when evaluating Reggie Bush as a multi-dimensional running back.

Next, Bush and the 2006 Rose Bowl. Bush prior to the 2005 college football season was considered a top of the round talent. Should we really hold it against Bush that he: a) was surrounded by tons of talent, b) split carries with another talented running back, or c) didn't perform above expectations in a bowl game.

Let's start with "a". If you are going to be a dominating, championship caliber team, you will be surrounded with tons of talent. Was Andre Johnson any less of a player because he only caught 60 passes for 1000 yards (not exactly jaw dropping numbers) on a superstar ladened Miami team? After all, how hard is it to achieve those numbers in college when you have an All-American QB, two Pro Bowl running backs, a Pro Bowl TE, and a couple of 1st rounders on the offensive line. No we shouldn't hold that against Andre Johnson, just as we shouldn't hold that against Bush.

Let's move on to "b", splitting carries with another talented back. Just because there are two talented backs in the backfield, it shouldn't be an indictment against the "other" talented back that he can't wrestle away all of the carries from the "other" back. Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams had what most would consider very good 1st seasons in the NFL. They had to split carries on college. Should we really hold it against Barry Sanders that he couldn't start ahead of Thurman Thomas while the two were at Oklahoma State. Barry didn't even split carries with Thurman Thomas his first two years. He was literally the backup.

Let's move to "c", didn't perform above expectations in a bowl game. Reggie Bush had 177 rushing and receiving yards in the Rose Bowl. Reggie Bush averaged 170 yards rushing and receiving during the 2005 season. Bush performed in the Rose Bowl as well as he performed all season long. Why is everyone so disappointed? Taking in account "Big Games" is sometimes an overrated stat. Ron Dayne was back-to-back Rose Bowl MVP. Tyrone Wheatley rushed for 250 yards in his last Rose Bowl game. Ryan Leaf had a great Rose Bowl in the national championship game against the 1997 Michigan Wolverines. Peyton Manning that same year threw for 150 yards with a couple of picks in his last bowl game. Or how about Andre Johnson being "shut down" by Chris Gamble in the 2003 BCS championship game? Putting too much emphasis on one game can some times lead to bad player evaluations.

When evaluating college players, especially QB's, we need to take in account productivity over a period of time, along with all of the "measureables." Vince Young was not considered a bonafide 1st round pick. Vince Young has really had only one good season of passing the ball. A lot of QB's have had one good statistical passing seasons. A body of work over multiple seasons is the best and safest way to evaluate a QB. Hell, Dave Ragone after his Junior season was considered a sure fire number 1 pick before he had a subpar Senior season. Omar Jacobs was the talked of the town after his great Sophomore season. Yet is he really going to be a 1st rounder this year after his disappointing Junior season.

Bottom line, I will be really happy with whoever we pick. I think Young and Bush are two of the most intriguing talents to enter the draft in years. I went to UT. I love Vince. But I'm a Houston fan first and everything else will always be secondary. I just hope in retrospect that we make the right decision.

Living in the Pac 10 area I have watched a ton of SC games for 2+ years, so I think I have a pretty good handle on Bush's strengths, weaknesses, and questions as a football player.

Bush is a phenomenal open field runner and terrific in space. He also gets to top speed as quick as anyone and has terrific balance. In these respects Ismail or Peter Warrick is a very good analogy (let's not forget these two plus rbs like Blair Thomas, Kijana Carter, Bryan Westbrook, Sayers all seem a little injury prone or took career ending injuries, it is more of a crap shoot than you think). Open space is a lot harder to come by in the pros (it was a lot harder for Reggie versus Texas and OU than his West Coast opponents), you have to be effective other ways. Bush also seems very wirery strong in a 205 or so frame, but not Emitt Smith type strong when every play it seems he got 3-4 more yards than they play should have gotten based on final contact.

Bush is not an outstanding or instinctive between the tackles runner. The persons you list--Dunn, Barber, Cadillac, Martin or say also throw out there Faulk, Allen, Sanders and Dorsett (because if you take Bush #1 you think he is like these hall of famers, not merely a very good player like Dunn)--made livings outside and inside the tackles. All great RBs, no matter how fast they are, in the pros must make most their livings between the tackles to produce 1st downs. This requires instincts on blocks and slipping tackles in tight space and so forth. Bush might develop this, or he might not. I can say for certaintly though the evidence of his 1st down producing instincts from college are not like Dorsett or Faulk. Reggie Bush's instincts right now is to try to turn the corner and outrace everyone to the corner if their is a little traffic. That doesn't work in the pros. In fact speed as a RB isn't as critical as instincts (slipping tackles/reading blocks) and lower body strength--that is why Emmitt and Payton are your rushing leaders, neither guy known for top end speed. A few guys have unique blends of both--Faulk, Dorsett, Sanders.

I am not saying Reggie Bush won't be a great pro tailback or a workhorse. But to not consider he wasn't a workhorse in college nor consider that SC didn't give him the ball 3 strait times when a 1st down secures you a title should produce legitimate questions. Certainly enough questions that you should not say you have made up your mind to draft him without ever individually working him out nor considering another college player who just declared who showed a combination of athleticism, size, leadership, and composure that most who have watched big time college football have not ever seen before.

Overall the safest pick is probably Leinart. VY and Bush both have a lot of adjustments for the pro game to be dominating pro players--I have focused on Bush here but I could on VY as well. But I do take issue with someone saying Bush is a sure thing RB like Dorsett or Faulk or Sanders--probably the comparisons a Bush proponent want's to make, those guys did have more evidence for their case, you can't deny it. Maybe LenDale would be good enough to take critical carriers (with National Championships on the line) away from pure runners of their level, but I doubt it.

Further it would be criminal to have a knee jerk reaction and committ to Bush as the Texans publically are doing without bring the individuals out for workouts. Since the season is over Bush's ability to run between the tackles consistently is never going to be know, that is going to be a lasting question. Honestly unless Bush shows Deion like speed (4.25) and Vick-like lower body strength (500lb squats?)--which is possible, OR unless VY shows a really weak arm or comes out poor in mental tasks relevant to being an NFL QB, VY should be the #1 pick whether the Texans keep it or not.

[rocketfan83]

I'm one of the few who are still on board with Reggie Bush.

A Carr, DD, AJ, and Reggie thats a very solid offense that can do some damage with a coach like Kubiak.

The NFL is an up/down league. It would not surprise me to see the Texans in
or close to the playoffs next season.

Look at the playoff teams. Chicago? NYG? Tampa? Cincy? J-Ville?

Are we really "years" behind these teams? I highly doubt it. These teams were all garbage not to long ago. Good management/coaching can turn this team around instantly.

If Vince is the guy thats fine too. But the fans/ownership should still expect to win next season or this franchise is going the Arizona Cardinal direction.

[Desert Scar]

One issue that should be thrown out is "need".

Who doesn't "need" John Elway, Barry Sanders, Gale Sayers, Peyton Manning, Bo Jackson, etc.

If you think Bush, Young or Leinart are on these guys level you take that player, period. Having Davis as a RB, Carr as a QB, Johnson as a game breaking WR or Mathis as KR/PR should not prevent you from taking a hall of famer who does there things and a ton more.

So you take the best prospect/player, or if you think that prospect is being overrated you trade the pick to someone you gives you the farm for it. This must be the center of the debate.

[wakkoman]

Are we really "years" behind these teams? I highly doubt it. These teams were all garbage not to long ago. Good management/coaching can turn this team around instantly.



Just like the Rockets, the Texans are in a pretty hard division

[ima_drummer2k]

FINALLY a Sticky! :D

I'm starting to lean towards VY. I think he would be the best pick for the long haul. Bush would probably help us more next year, but VY will help us much more later on.

The question is (if we take VY) how long will it be before DD starts a thread saying we should have taken Bush? 1 game? 2 games?

[Harrisment]

All of you that think VY is going to make the fans go crazy..... Don't you think that will die down fairly quickly once next year gets going and those casual fans realize that Vince isn't even playing? I don't think there is any way they would throw him to the wolves like we did Carr. The realistic outcome for next season if we draft Vince is that he sits on the bench all of next season and we go 4-12.

[DaDakota]

The question is (if we take VY) how long will it be before DD starts a thread saying we should have taken Bush? 1 game? 2 games?

NEVER !!!

DD

[No Worries]

For the record, I like the idea of drafting VY, but it's still WAAAAAAY too early for all this. When the combines, Wonderlic tests, and individual workouts are all completed, get back to me. Committing to ONE player now, before the Super Bowl has even been played, is just asinine. Opinions on players WILL change. Draft rankings WILL change. Trust me. For 4 years, as the football editor, my job was to track NFL Draft prospects and select the best ones for trading card releases (including which players to sign to autograph deals). You'd be amazed what happens to opinions over the course of several months.
This is the sanest post by far.

I think we really need to wait on the Texan's coaching decision and the scouting combine reports, before the picture is really clear. Having said that, I am very sure some other team will find either Bush or Young too irresistable and trade the farm for them. The smart move for the Texans would be make that deal, since they are not one great player away from the Superbowl.

[Desert Scar]

For the record, I like the idea of drafting VY, but it's still WAAAAAAY too early for all this. When the combines, Wonderlic tests, and individual workouts are all completed, get back to me. Committing to ONE player now, before the Super Bowl has even been played, is just asinine. Opinions on players WILL change. Draft rankings WILL change. Trust me. For 4 years, as the football editor, my job was to track NFL Draft prospects and select the best ones for trading card releases (including which players to sign to autograph deals). You'd be amazed what happens to opinions over the course of several months.

Vince or Bush? Christ, let's get a freaking coach first. Maybe even evaluate our crappy roster and see who's available in free agency.

I think we really need to wait on the Texan's coaching decision and the scouting combine reports, before the picture is really clear. Having said that, I am very sure some other team will find either Bush or Young too irresistable and trade the farm for them. The smart move for the Texans would be make that deal, since they are not one great player away from the Superbowl.

I am with this as well. What I think caused the uproar is the Texans publically coming out and saying they are locked into Reggie Bush (using the #1 pick) without fully evaluating the prospects in person and considering alternatives. Particularly when a 6'5" 230+ QB with a combination of athleticism and leadership pretty much none of us have ever seen toyed with the best of Division I athletes and coaches on the way to a NC and 20+ strait wins, and that guy is from Houston.

All the Texans have to say is they will fully evaluate the prospects and make the best trade or pick for their team. IMO it will take shockingly positive combine/workouts from Bush or shockingly negative combine/workouts (plus analytic tests) from VY for VY not to go #1. I have layed out where I stand, but yes got to be open to the workouts and evaluations.

Had the Texans just said VY did things we have not ever seen in the college ranks so yes we need to fully evaluate his pro potential and fit with us along with Reggie Bush and other top 5 prospects this uproar would be gone.

[Blatz]

When that report came out saying they were going to draft Bush even if Young comes out the Texans bounced right back saying that was not the case. They didn't know who all was going to be in the draft and they had not even begun to evaluate everyone pro potential.

[Nick]

All of you that think VY is going to make the fans go crazy..... Don't you think that will die down fairly quickly once next year gets going and those casual fans realize that Vince isn't even playing? I don't think there is any way they would throw him to the wolves like we did Carr. The realistic outcome for next season if we draft Vince is that he sits on the bench all of next season and we go 4-12.

Not at all... if anything, it will increase the viewership of every game (and the entire game, no less)... while the fans will wait patiently for Carr to either falter, or (less likely) the team to get a gigantic lead so that we can all get a glimpse of Vince.

Plus, its not a given that Vince won't see "any" time next year. Remember, we'll have a new, most likely offensive, coach who is going to be a tad bit more creative than Capers/Palmer was. They know we'll still have a terrible o-line, so they'll be looking to mix it up as much as possible... which includes having Vince in on some plays, or having both Vince and Carr in... the possibilities are endless.

I keep flashing back to 2003, when UT had this unknown wonder on the sideline... and slowly, we kept on starting to get glimpses of him, and how amazing he looked in that short time... I'm ready for that feelin to happen again.

[Blatz]

I don't think the fans will be waiting patiently. They will be all over Carr after one dropped pass. His poor family will probably have beer thrown on them if a pass gets tipped and intercepted.

[Nick]

I don't think the fans will be waiting patiently. They will be all over Carr after one dropped pass. His poor family will probably have beer thrown on them if a pass gets tipped and intercepted.

Whether they're patient or not is irrelevant... the poster above was saying that the fans would stop being crazy after VY is riding the bench.

I'm saying the exact opposite is true... and your scenario is just one example of what will happen. Either way, people will be following this team like no other.

[Fatty FatBastard]

Oh yeah, guys. I'm sure there will be sellouts every game next year in the hopes that Young comes out and plays meaningless minutes until Carr hands the reigns to him three years later and gets traded. I'm freaking salivating over this scenario. :rolleyes:

[DaDakota]

Oh yeah, guys. I'm sure there will be sellouts every game next year in the hopes that Young comes out and plays meaningless minutes until Carr hands the reigns to him three years later and gets traded. I'm freaking salivating over this scenario. :rolleyes:

Fatty,

Do you really think that Bush will make a 2-14 team a contender next year?

Honestly?

It is going to take a couple of years anyway.....why not grow with a hometown guy who has proven himself at every level?

DD

[rrj_gamz]

the answer to your question is exactly why i think McNair steps in and takes Young. he's not a meddlesome owner...but he hired Reeves to advise HIM on what to do in football-related matters...which is a subtraction of power, by necessity, from casserly.

i think mcnair will see what an opportunity he has here...he doesn't live in a football bubble. he's hearing it now and it will continue to grow. he'll step in and take Young...and having an offseason where you're having a huge coaching transition, anyway, will facilitate that.

I couldn't have said it any better myself, so I won't even try...also, another point raised here by leroy is that RB had LW, who tore it up on short yardage situations, which Bush could not...Bush is good, but you take Young, period...

[rocketfan83]

I got a question to the Vince Young supporters.

Don't the Texans have to consider drafting matt leinart? I mean pre and post rose bowl he is in most peoples minds the best QB in the draft.

By saying we want Vince to me that means you don't trust Carr thats cool.

But if Vince is your guy. Wouldnt Leinart be your #2 choice?

[pgabriel]

I got a question to the Vince Young supporters.

Don't the Texans have to consider drafting matt leinart? I mean pre and post rose bowl he is in most peoples minds the best QB in the draft.

By saying we want Vince to me that means you don't trust Carr thats cool.

But if Vince is your guy. Wouldnt Leinart be your #2 choice?


I don't think he brings enough to the table to replace Carr. He's definitely a great college qb, and last season he would have been the 1st pick no question but why would you replace Carr with Lienart.


I do think Lienart showed he has something special beyond physical ability especially at the end of that ND game.

[JunkyardDwg]

Hmmm.... well I think the first thing to consider before any rational decision can be made regarding these two is first taking the "hometown boy" out of the equation. Yeah it'd make for a good Hallmark movie of the week story. But c'mon, this city and fans will embrace ANY player that leads this team to glory. For every Campbell, Olajuwon, Drexler and Berkman there is a Moon, Yao, McGrady, Oswalt, Biggio and Bagwell. Doesn't matter if they were born/played here or come halfway across the world. As long as they come to play and help bring victories, the fans will be there. So let's strip these players of any hollywood glamour or local roots and look at them objectively. And looking at them objectively, the safe bet would be Bush. Though my heart is leaning toward Young.

[Jared Novak]

Before the Rose Bowl I was all for trading down and getting a king's ransom for the top pick. I do not believe that Reggie Bush is the player that will put us over the top, especially when the Texans are already getting production out of that position. And if Gary Kubiak does become the next HC then you could put almost anyone in the offensive scheme he'll run and if its anything like Denver's, then that back will undoubtedly have success.

With a record of 2-14, a new HC and staff coming in the Texans are essentially starting over. I like David Carr, he was phenomenal in his senior season at Fresno State (first year I had the College Ticket from Direct TV), but it seemed that something (that "IT") was missing. But Carr got to the pros and he hasn't come close to to emulating that. Now I will say that he hasn't had the best talent around him, but he hasn't shown the intangibles (poise in the pocket, leadership, field vision) that make a great QB. When you watch Vince Young, he has all those intangibles, you hear how highly revered he is among his teammates. It sounds like any of Vince's teammates, coaches, friends would run throguh a wall for him, I've yet to hear something even remotely like that about Carr. When one of the Texans' rookies as interviewed on the radio and asked who some of the team leaders were, he named McKinney, Robinson and Walker, when asked about Carr he just kind of blew off the question and didn't have much to say about it.

The Texans are still three months away from the draft and have a chance to take a player who comes in and brings an identity and a swagger to a team that has none. They have the chance to draft a player that the entire city will welcome with open arms and will rally around even when the Texans falter next season.

[Rocket River]

Let's kill some of the Bush Stuff
Remove his KR and PR off his list of assets

he *WILL* NOT replace our PRO BOWL Returner

His receiving yards are fairly pederstian
Receiving: 478/13 = 37 yds a game


His stength is RUSHING
Rushing: 1740/13 = 134 yds a game

Impressive. 554 of it against Fresno and UCLA
Other than that
he has 1186/11 = 107 yds per game
a Respectable Average.

I think with Kubiak and a Good Denver type linemen effort
he can keep those numbers. . .perhaps bump them up
BUT . . .
There are Questions

Rocket River

[Rocket River]

QUESTION for Bush Supporters: What are realistic Numbers for Reggie Bush Next Year?

Behind this Texans' O-line

What are your expectations of Bush next year?

the same for Young Supporters

Rocket River

[reggietodd]

Kubiak is an Aggie. Since bias is so strong around here and accepted to bring in the hometown longhorn, maybe Kubiak will use his bias and not draft a Longhorn #1 overall.

I think people forget that Kub is an Aggie. And if you give the the argument that he shouldn't base his judgment on that because he is a professional and he should evaluate talent equally, then you are a hypocrite.

[gucci888]

delete

[Desert Scar]

I got a question to the Vince Young supporters.

Don't the Texans have to consider drafting matt leinart? I mean pre and post rose bowl he is in most peoples minds the best QB in the draft.

By saying we want Vince to me that means you don't trust Carr thats cool.

But if Vince is your guy. Wouldnt Leinart be your #2 choice?

Leinart should be considered. All options should be considered, including trading a few slots for Hawk/Fergason/M.Williams plus the farm. But if you think VY is the next Elway/S.McNair in talent/leadership, you take him. You think Bush is the next Faulk/Sanders, you take him. You think Leinart is the next Peyton/Brady, you take him. The fact the Texans have some decent prospects/players in their positions is mute if you think you have a chance at a potential hall of famer.

I have never seen a football player dominate a game with his will and skill with such stakes like I saw out of Young. (I think some of Elway and McNabb early playoff wins next come to mind, but that was at the NFL). Young has been doing it 20+ games versus the best D1 players and coaches. Right now I'd put my money on him being the best player on the next level of the options. Of course he may not pan out, but that is where I'd hedge my bets as the best NFL player from this draft. Of course workouts (e.g., terrible by VY, great by others) could change my mind. I'd be pretty surprised if the workouts came back so different than expected though.

[NIKEstrad]

Kubiak is an Aggie. Since bias is so strong around here and accepted to bring in the hometown longhorn, maybe Kubiak will use his bias and not draft a Longhorn #1 overall.

I think people forget that Kub is an Aggie. And if you give the the argument that he shouldn't base his judgment on that because he is a professional and he should evaluate talent equally, then you are a hypocrite.

:confused:

What is your point? There's a rumor he may have Jerry Gray, a Longhorn, on his staff.

What's next, we should stay away from VY because our current center, Steve McKinney, is also a former Aggie and may sabotage him? Or having Kubiak makes it more likely we'll pick up another Aggie QB in Reggie McNeal (who I wouldn't mind in the 3rd or 4th round based on his athleticism alone)?

Kubiak has helped Elway and Jake Plummer succeed in his offenses. All the more argument for bringing in a dual threat QB.

[Harrisment]

QUESTION for Bush Supporters: What are realistic Numbers for Reggie Bush Next Year?

Behind this Texans' O-line

What are your expectations of Bush next year?

the same for Young Supporters

Rocket River

My expectations for next year as you asked:

Reggie Bush: 1300 yards rushing, 650 yards receiving

Vince Young: 4/7, 55yds passing, 35yds rushing, 0TD, 0 INT

[halfbreed]

My expectations for next year as you asked:

Reggie Bush: 1300 yards rushing, 650 yards receiving

Vince Young: 4/7, 55yds passing, 35yds rushing, 0TD, 0 INT

That's amazing considering that Bush only had 1760 rushing yards this past year (554 of those coming against UCLA and Fresno State alone). He also had 478 receiving yards.

Now remember these stats were mainly against Pac-10 defenses. I think you drank too much of the Reggie Bush kool-aid that ESPN has been passing out.

EDIT: Against the toughest defense he faced all year (UT), he had 82 yards rushing.

[gucci888]

My expectations for next year as you asked:

Reggie Bush: 1300 yards rushing, 650 yards receiving

Vince Young: 4/7, 55yds passing, 35yds rushing, 0TD, 0 INT

This reminds me of another prediction post:

Bush 215 yards rushing
Young 3 fumbles 2 ints

Not trying to call out the original poster, but I knew I had read something similar to this.

[Cohen]

I still like the ESPN analysis that argued against Vince just casually mentioned that he could be the best NFL QB of all time.


So it's more of a risk to pick Vince, but if there's a chance that he may be the best QB of all time...

[VooDooPope]

Vince Young: 4/7, 55yds passing, 35yds rushing, 0TD, 0 INT

Looks like Carr's stat line from a couple games this year.

[mogrod]

I just listened to the whole interview from this morning and I can say one thing about Vince. Just listening to him talk, makes you a believer. I like the confidence he exudes without being cocky.

Sounds like a guy that REALLY puts in the effort in preparation and training on his own outside of what the team asks him to do. Him talking about taking the O-line out to dinner constantly and how he works with the WRs on their own time to gain cohesiveness, really speaks volumes.

[Simon Honeybone]

Vince and it isn't even close.

[IROC it]

I'm conVINCEd that Reggie Bush is not the choice the Texans should make.

In fact, if they really want a RB, go with LenDale. ;)

in-VINCE-able in '06 and beyond!

[Simon Honeybone]

Also re: Kubiak is an Aggie and Aggies hate Longhorns that is pure garbage.

Vince Young & Gary Kubiak have one key thing in common... Greg Davis was their QB coach in college.

Greg & Gary are still close friends to this day and Vince has stated that Greg Davis is one of his best friends so you can be assured Gary will lay any potential anti-UT bias out of the equation as it pertains to Vince.

Assuming Kubiak follows the Denver model here the two positions on offense where you can plug in other peoples leftovers and get great production from are the offensive line and running back. That bodes well assuming Kubiak is good at talent evaluation and it wasn't all Mike Shanahan. I guess that is my greatest fear is we are hiring an offensive coordinator from a head coach who was a past offensive coordinator. Generally speaking you want to hire the stand out coordinator from the other side of the ball from the head coach's background since you are pretty certain they are not being carried. Best example I can think of is Bob Stoops actually giving Florida a national championship defense then winning the national championship again in his 2nd year as a head coach. We all know Spurrier is allergic to defense so anytime he has a good one you should snatch the DC if you are in the market.

[Harrisment]

This reminds me of another prediction post:



Not trying to call out the original poster, but I knew I had read something similar to this.


I'm not trying to call out Vince with my post. In fact I think if/when he plays a full season as a starter he will be very productive. That was my prediction for next season, assuming he only gets in during mop up time.

[DaDakota]

When is the last time ANY pro football team had a QB that could run a 4.4 in the 40 yd dash, and pass like Vince?

Has that EVER happened?

Vince could revolutionize the game.

DD

[Xerobull]

Avoiding Texans now should be Young's No. 1 concern (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13581165.htm)

The body of this article is exactly why I think the Texans are going to draft VY (in fact, the body argues effectively against the title). I will be shocked if we don't draft VY at this point; after such a horrible season, he is the Texans' rebuilding 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. No one wants to go through a rebuilding period, but with VY, optimisim springs eternal and the city would bear a few year's setback. Bush is a great prospect and will probably live up to some of his hype, but the Texans can't not draft Young at this point.

[Rocket River]

QUESTION: Long Term v Short Term

Which should th Texans look for

Rocket River
I don't see us in the playoffs next year

[DaDakota]

QUESTION: Long Term v Short Term

Which should th Texans look for

Rocket River
I don't see us in the playoffs next year

Long term success.....IMHO....

DD

[ipaman]

Found this interesting article.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13591230.htm

Young has NFL scouts dazed, confused
BY RANDY GALLOWAY
Fort Worth Star-Telegram

FORT WORTH, Texas - There's a respected NFL scout, a longtime friend, who has been giving me a blunt and brutal opinion for more than a year on the quarterbacking talents of one Vince Young.

By the way, both the blunt and brutal were part of an agreement that his name would never be used.

But this guy's standard line on Young as a future NFL quarterback was always "not with my name on him."

Meaning he certainly wouldn't be recommending that his team draft Young in the first round.

"Throws like a girl," was his non-PC answer as late as early December.

But this same scout was also at the Rose Bowl last week, evaluating talent.

When I caught up with him by phone over the weekend, he sounded dazed and confused.

"What do I think now?" he answered, repeating my question.

"I don't know what to think now. Except that Vince Young is the most unique player I believe I've ever seen.

"There's been nothing like him. I scouted (Michael) Vick a lot. He's better than Vick. But . . ."

But what?

"If I worked for Houston, I wouldn't know what to tell them. I think I'd still take (Reggie) Bush with that pick. But somebody is really going to be very wrong, or very right, on Young."

Some of the best defensive minds in college football, including USC coach Pete Carroll, had their brains fried by Vince Offense.

Now it's the NFL's turn to be dazed and confused.

There's suddenly no doubt Young will go among the first three picks in April (1. the Texans, 2. the Saints, 3. the Titans).

But at the start of this college season, I don't think anyone had Young even being in the first round. Not as a quarterback.

Vince, however, has forced the NFL to play its hand. First, by the season he had, capped by the Rose Bowl. Second, by declaring Sunday for the draft.

Me, I was hoping he would be back in Austin for one more year. But that was based on personal entertainment. I just wanna have fun watching these games. Vince Young provides more fun than anyone I can remember.

Then again, from a pure financial standpoint, how could Young have done anything else? His football value is at a peak. Go ahead, cash in on that peak.

But now comes the tearing-down process. Between now and April, there will be nothing but negative overkill in the evaluation department.

Bush is already going through it.

He was All-World Can't Miss until the Rose Bowl game. Now, you hear the whispers about durability and toughness. Or, based on NFL needs, was he even the best running back at USC?

Matt Leinart?

Same thing. A year ago, he was a quarterbacking god. But even after a great Rose Bowl performance, Leinart is currently being knocked for a lack of arm strength and mobility.

Bet this, however:

What is about to commence with Vince Young might be the biggest evaluation debate any NFL D raft has ever experienced.

But Michael Vick was the first pick of the draft, and Michael Vick is now the highest-paid player in the NFL.

If that's the guideline ...

Some of us also say Vick is the most overrated player in the NFL.

But Young has more working for him, including the natural-born leader aspect, along with being a better passer.

Anyway, can a college quarterback limited to working out of the shotgun, and throwing with a funky sidearm delivery, actually be a success in the National Football League?

That depends on which scout you are asking.

Or which evaluation process is being used.

But Jeff Ireland believes strongly in Rac-Ac.

"Rac-Ac?"

Never heard of it.

Ireland, the Cowboys vice president of college and pro scouting, answered, "It means run- after-catch accuracy."

OK, now I understand.

Is the quarterback delivering the ball to the right spot, allowing a receiver to run for additional yardage after the catch?

"Vince Young does that, and does it well," said Ireland. "In our business, we look at his delivery, and it's so screwed up, the way he kinda flicks the ball out there with a side-armed motion.

"A scout sees that, and he goes, `Oh, no.' "

But if you keep watching, explained Ireland, the ball is delivered with accuracy and touch.

"Young's Rac-Ac is very good," he said.

"And then you mix in the ability to buy time with his feet, escape trouble, and then do something after that, and you've got what we are looking for."

Is Ireland sold on Young being an NFL success?

"First, he's obviously a terrific talent, and second, I don't think the NFL has ever seen anything exactly like him," he answered. "If we had the first pick in the draft, a lot of work would be involved.

"But he's the kind of player, with that size, that speed and the ability to avoid the direct hit, well, I wouldn't want to be passing on him."

Give it a few years, and we will have the NFL answer on Vince Young.

But now? If I'm Houston, I'm taking him, hometown kid and all.

And you?

Speak up now, because second-guessing on this question won't be allowed later.

Do you or don't you?

[ipaman]

Vince Young's throwing motion has been unlocked!

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/vinceyoung.gif

Uncle Rico!

[reggietodd]

Bush declared.

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

[MadMax]

Bush declared.

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

that's the thing...no matter what they do...this debate will be on for years.

[jtotheb]

Vince Young's throwing motion has been unlocked!

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/vinceyoung.gif

Uncle Rico!

Man, that's one of the funniest things I have ever seen...

[reggietodd]

What a great off season this is shaping up to be. Kubiak and Bush. wow.

This organization is on their way UP!

[MadMax]

What a great off season this is shaping up to be. Kubiak and Bush. wow.

This organization is on their way UP!

it can't go much further down.

[Groogrux]

Vince Young's throwing motion has been unlocked!

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/vinceyoung.gif

Uncle Rico!

I like the accuracy. Hit the moving target perfectly. Not that I would expect anything less from the NCAA passing efficiency leader.

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

You and Casserly snuggling in the deer blind?

[reggietodd]

You and Casserly snuggling in the deer blind?

I'm at an internet Cafe. :) No wireless in the deer blind. Plus deer season is over, we are huntin' dove.


Bush in 06' !!

[Deckard]

Vince Young's throwing motion has been unlocked!

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/vinceyoung.gif

Uncle Rico!
It would appear that his Rac-Ac has been outstanding from an early age! Notice how the guys on the bike are still moving after the perfectly thrown pass!!

[Desert Scar]

When is the last time ANY pro football team had a QB that could run a 4.4 in the 40 yd dash, and pass like Vince?

Has that EVER happened?

Vince could revolutionize the game.

DD

Steve Young.

I would guess I lot of other guys were at least near 4.5s like Elway, McNair, Cunnginham, Staubach, Flutie. Don't remember any of these guys getting caught from behind much.

[KaiSeR SoZe]

why can't football season start again!!

[The Cat]

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

I figured you would've learned by now that things aren't over until the game
(and in this case, the draft) is played.

[DaDakota]

Bush declared.

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

Want to bet?

[underoverup]

Bush declared.

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

Bush 215
Young 3 fumbles 2 int

Please keep making predictions. :D

[DaDakota]

Steve Young.

I would guess I lot of other guys were at least near 4.5s like Elway, McNair, Cunnginham, Staubach, Flutie. Don't remember any of these guys getting caught from behind much.

I don't think any of those guys had 4.4 speed, maybe 4.6 or so.....and Young would be my guess as the fastest.....of those you mentioned.

But not the size and strength of Vince as well......

Vince is a unique player, never before seen in the NFL......and he SHOULD be a Texan.

DD

[aburttschell]

I don't think any of those guys had 4.4 speed, maybe 4.6 or so.....and Young would be my guess as the fastest.....of those you mentioned.

But not the size and strength of Vince as well......

Vince is a unique player, never before seen in the NFL......and he SHOULD be a Texan.

DD
I don't think Vince will run a 4.4 at the combine.

[Desert Scar]

I don't think any of those guys had 4.4 speed, maybe 4.6 or so.....and Young would be my guess as the fastest.....of those you mentioned.


I am pretty sure Steve Young ran a 4.5 or sub 40.

....

But not the size and strength of Vince as well......

Vince is a unique player, never before seen in the NFL......and he SHOULD be a Texan.

DD

Right now I agree. Athleticsm, size, AND composure, workethic and leadership not seen before at least in the college ranks.

Barring a sub-par for the NFL arm or/and mental assessments there is no way I wouldn't take him #1. The rest of his flaws I am sure can be developed/tutored.

[IC2000]

I am pretty sure Steve Young ran a 4.5 or sub 40.



Right now I agree. Athleticsm, size, AND composure, workethic and leadership not seen before at least in the college ranks.

Barring a sub-par for the NFL arm or/and mental assessments there is no way I wouldn't take him #1. The rest of his flaws I am sure can be developed/tutored.

the wonderlick should be interesting, lets see if he beats frank gores record of a 6

[cwaynemiller]

Simple fact you can't get away from. There is no way Texans can have Young and Carr on the same team. The fans will make it impossible for Carr to function and why would you have a Carr on the bench with Young playing? Carr's trade value probably is not enough to entice the Texans to get rid of him
I think the Texans will be logical and draft Bush. I think the first time the defense trys to sack Carr and Bush speeds by on the way to the end zone with his speed, I think Carr's life and fortune will greatly improve. Nothing makes a defense respect a quarterback as much as a good running game. I would hjope we could get another good end and some ofensive line help with our other picks. Despite the box office appeal of Young, I just dont see it unless a good good trade possiblity comes up for Carr.

[DaDakota]

I don't think Vince is going to run at the combine, Bush probably won't either.

I think it is a toss up, but I believe that the fans pressure to take the home town hero will win out.

And, I for one think that is the right pick.

Lots of good running backs out there, hell, Parker in Pittsburgh is like Bush and he was undrafted.

But VERY few athletic freaks at the QB position.

DD

[MadMax]

I don't think Vince is going to run at the combine, Bush probably won't either.

I think it is a toss up, but I believe that the fans pressure to take the home town hero will win out.

And, I for one think that is the right pick.

Lots of good running backs out there, hell, Parker in Pittsburgh is like Bush and he was undrafted.

But VERY few athletic freaks at the QB position.

DD

he said on the radio he would throw at the combine...but i'm like you..i'm betting neither he nor Bush runs at the combine. they have nothing to gain from that at all.

[DaDakota]

Simple fact you can't get away from. There is no way Texans can have Young and Carr on the same team. The fans will make it impossible for Carr to function and why would you have a Carr on the bench with Young playing?


Rivers and Brees?

Young and Montana?

Plenty of teams have 2 good QBs on the same team....

Draft Vince, and trade Carr or give Carr a chance to keep the job...what is wrong with compeition?

DD

[IC2000]

Rivers and Brees?

Young and Montana?

Plenty of teams have 2 good QBs on the same team....

Draft Vince, and trade Carr or give Carr a chance to keep the job...what is wrong with compeition?

DD

Totally different situations!!!!!!

[DaDakota]

Totally different situations!!!!!!

Dude, whatever.......

Competition drives people to do better things.

Carr has been coddled, draft Vince and see how Carr responds, champions step up and OWN the job.

Cowards shrivel up...and hide.

If Carr steps up, you can trade Young...if not...well....

DD

[langal]

That's amazing considering that Bush only had 1760 rushing yards this past year (554 of those coming against UCLA and Fresno State alone). He also had 478 receiving yards.

Now remember these stats were mainly against Pac-10 defenses. I think you drank too much of the Reggie Bush kool-aid that ESPN has been passing out.

EDIT: Against the toughest defense he faced all year (UT), he had 82 yards rushing.

Bush did rack 100 yards receiving. You have to remember too that Lendale White played a great game and is a star in his own right. I don't think you can use one game's worth of stats to judge the guy. He got less yards against Hawaii, UW, and Cal. Those "Pac-10 defenses" get a bad wrap in general. USC piled up the points and yards against UT pretty easily (and vice versa).

Can the Texans package the number one and David Carr for the number 2 or 3 and some more picks/players?

Some lucky team (NOLA?) could get Carr (still a young guy with a lot of potential) AND Reggie Bush in one fell swoop. 2 number one overall picks to build a backfield around sounds pretty good.

If the Texans want VY - they won't need Carr and probably don't have to use the #1 to get him. Might as well get some freebies.

[crose]

Simple fact you can't get away from. There is no way Texans can have Young and Carr on the same team. The fans will make it impossible for Carr to function and why would you have a Carr on the bench with Young playing? Carr's trade value probably is not enough to entice the Texans to get rid of him
I think the Texans will be logical and draft Bush. I think the first time the defense trys to sack Carr and Bush speeds by on the way to the end zone with his speed, I think Carr's life and fortune will greatly improve. Nothing makes a defense respect a quarterback as much as a good running game. I would hjope we could get another good end and some ofensive line help with our other picks. Despite the box office appeal of Young, I just dont see it unless a good good trade possiblity comes up for Carr.
call me an idiot...but I could have sworn that the only bright spot for the TEXANS was their decent running game? that might be the ONLY position without a hole in it.

[T-2]

It would appear that his Rac-Ac has been outstanding from an early age! Notice how the guys on the bike are still moving after the perfectly thrown pass!!

Well done :D

[T-2]

Steve Young.


Bingo. Beat me to it. I've been thinking that Steve Young is the more appropriate comparison than all of these other names being thrown out there (although McNair is another good comparison). My gut feeling is that we have an opportunity to draft a Steve Young. Steve was known for his scrambling but still had an excellent career, was a Super Bowl winner, and a HOF.

I was watching the Niners/Vikings one day, when Young scrambles for his life, cuts all over the field, and if I recall correctly, runs for a TD from like 50 yards. My favorite QB scramble run to this day. It was so awesome, I think it is even mentioned in Wikipedia:

"In a 1988 playoff game, the scrambling southpaw shredded the Minnesota Vikings for a 49-yard, game-winning touchdown."

Some other spooky facts I came up with:
Both Youngs
Steve = 5 letters, Vince = 5 letters
Both finished second in Heisman voting
Both scored game-winning TD in final college bowl appearance
Drafted #1
Team drafting had record of 2-14

[Rocket River]

Bush Maybe Barry Sanders but
that is not a good thing

The thing I look at with Poor Barry
is he was so Good . . the dragged and pulled detroit
as far as he could

He just guaranteed them a middle of the road draft pict
He was so good they never got the help he needed
[detroit was terrible with picks . and honestly i don't trust Casserly anymore]

I worry that this is the BEST case senario for Bush and the Texans

Rocket River

[Rocket River]

Draft Vince, and trade Carr or give Carr a chance to keep the job...what is wrong with compeition?

DD

I agree
I think honestly
CARR SUFFERS FROM A LACK OF COMPETITION
no matter what he does. . he knows he is starting
I think that keep him from getting better

Rocket River

[anon3803]

I posted this in another thread, but since this is the official VY vs. RB thread I'll repost it here. . .with a few updates.

Many people mention that "one great game" shouldn't be enough to move VY over Leinart or Bush. However they fail to mention that it was "one great game" (alright admittedly 1 and a half) that catapulted Bush over VY in the Heisman polls. Then everyone jumped on the Bush bandwagon, starting drinking the USC Kool-Aid and the rest is history. I distinctly remember VY having a "comfortable" lead over Bush in the weekly ESPN Heisman polls up until the Fresno State game.

I mean to put it into prespective Reggie didn't even break Steve Breaston's mark for all-purpose yards in last year's Rose Bowl. Breaston was WR too, got fewer touches, and didn't have a Heisman Trophy quarterback throwing to him. Not to take anything away from Bush, we all know he's a great player, but I don't see his college performances translating him into a mega-star in the NFL. We all saw how Texas's fast defense was able to limit him, and NFL defenses are just as fast if not faster. However when he gets open he takes off faster than I think I've ever seen anyone take off :eek:. But speed is overrated for RBs, and Reggie is also not a every down back despite the claims otherwise. If he could run between the tackles instead of trying to turn the corner on every other play, I don't think he would've sat on the sidelines on most of USC's short yardage situations.

The Texans, from what I've read, (and I admit I'm not the most informed on their motives) have consistently stated their intention to pick Bush with the No. 1 pick. Everyone knows the smart move would be to trade down and pick up a few good linemen, afterall that's obviously what the Texans need. However, a highlight reel player like Bush brings people to the stadium, and others to their sofas in front of the TV. Vick is a perfect example of this. So clearly this isn't so much about winning as it is about $$. And if it is about $$ the Texans would be smart to draft Young. Being a native Houstonian he would instantly boost interest in the team, increase merchandise sales, and help fill the stadium every Sunday. Clemens, Drexler, Hakeem, etc. are good examples of this. From what I've heard he was even drawing huge crowds when he was playing for Madison. So in conclusion that's why I think the Texans should draft VY, for the $$ cuz that's clearly their main priority (not that there's anything wrong with that). I think they're still leaning toward Bush, but there will be a lot of pressure put on the Texans over the next few months to lean the other way.

[VesceySux]

Bush declared.

The Texans will take him. This debate is OVER.

To even suggest that the Texans have already decided on who they plan to pick #1 without first having a head coach in place is probably the dumbest thing I've heard here in a long time.

[Cohen]

Bush did rack 100 yards receiving. You have to remember too that Lendale White played a great game and is a star in his own right. I don't think you can use one game's worth of stats to judge the guy. He got less yards against Hawaii, UW, and Cal. Those "Pac-10 defenses" get a bad wrap in general. USC piled up the points and yards against UT pretty easily (and vice versa).

....


As an RB, Bush must earn his keep rushing first, or he will get few chances at receiving. And 26 of those 95 receiving were garbage yards when UT was in prevent defense on the next to last play of the game, so he only had 69 the rest of the game.

White played more as the game progressed because Bush could not get it done. Ten (for 54 yards) of Bush's 13 carries came in the first half, when SC only scored 10 points (thanks more to a UT fumble than his running).

As for the Pac-10 defenses...they get a bad wrap because they suck. What makes you think that they're good?

[MykTek]

has anyone pondered this idea....trade up into the first rd and get white....he would compliment DD well....and we get VY to groom behind Carr for a season or 2.....but i heard rumors that Green Bay likes white at 5...and that would kill this idea.... =)

[RocketManJosh]

Bingo. Beat me to it. I've been thinking that Steve Young is the more appropriate comparison than all of these other names being thrown out there (although McNair is another good comparison). My gut feeling is that we have an opportunity to draft a Steve Young. Steve was known for his scrambling but still had an excellent career, was a Super Bowl winner, and a HOF.

I was watching the Niners/Vikings one day, when Young scrambles for his life, cuts all over the field, and if I recall correctly, runs for a TD from like 50 yards. My favorite QB scramble run to this day. It was so awesome, I think it is even mentioned in Wikipedia:

"In a 1988 playoff game, the scrambling southpaw shredded the Minnesota Vikings for a 49-yard, game-winning touchdown."

Some other spooky facts I came up with:
Both Youngs
Steve = 5 letters, Vince = 5 letters
Both finished second in Heisman voting
Both scored game-winning TD in final college bowl appearance
Drafted #1
Team drafting had record of 2-14

Steve McNair throws 10x better than Vince Young does and so comparing VY to him is a stretch. Comparing VY to Steve Young is just unfathomable to me. Just my opinion though.

Honestly I think the best move is to trade the pick "IF" the Texans can get enough out of another team. There are a lot better areas for this team to improve on rather than QB and RB. However if no trade can be made, then you have to take the best player on the board at #1, and that player is Reggie Bush.

[intermill]

How about putting this in the sticky: [Official] Bush Or Young or Someone else thread.

it can be found here: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=107174&z=1

Too many VY/Bush/Draft threads

[rrj_gamz]

Steve McNair throws 10x better than Vince Young does and so comparing VY to him is a stretch. Comparing VY to Steve Young is just unfathomable to me. Just my opinion though.

Honestly I think the best move is to trade the pick "IF" the Texans can get enough out of another team. There are a lot better areas for this team to improve on rather than QB and RB. However if no trade can be made, then you have to take the best player on the board at #1, and that player is Reggie Bush.

Steve McNair had the luxury of sitting a couple of years before he took on the starting job...His mechanics weren't bad, but they weren't great (upside)...I agree we have so many other needs, but the best athlete/player on the board is Vince Young, period (see past two Rose Bowls and entire college career)...VY has unique competitiveness, toughness, leadership or heart...

[KingCheetah]

the wonderlick should be interesting, lets see if he beats frank gores record of a 6

Frank Gore is dyslexic ~ obviously you're trying to disparage a man who has overcome a learning disability (and two blown knees) to make the NFL.

[T-2]

Steve McNair throws 10x better than Vince Young does and so comparing VY to him is a stretch. Comparing VY to Steve Young is just unfathomable to me. Just my opinion though.

Honestly I think the best move is to trade the pick "IF" the Texans can get enough out of another team. There are a lot better areas for this team to improve on rather than QB and RB. However if no trade can be made, then you have to take the best player on the board at #1, and that player is Reggie Bush.

I did say it was a hunch. That's all we can do, make educated guesses, since our task is try to predict the future over the next 3-10 years. Don't misunderstand, I don't think most pro-VY folks are expecting miracles right away, so in 2006 I'm not expecting a McNair/SYoung in their prime.

Unfathomable? Don't forget Steve Young was deemed a bust so Tampa Bay saw fit to trade him. And McNair didn't unseat Chandler for a good while.

As to your last point, two words: Charley Casserly. Stocking draftpicks is of dubious merit when you have him as your GM. Otherwise, I would be very open to the idea.

[Fatty FatBastard]

It would appear that his Rac-Ac has been outstanding from an early age! Notice how the guys on the bike are still moving after the perfectly thrown pass!!

That was brilliant.

[langal]

As an RB, Bush must earn his keep rushing first, or he will get few chances at receiving. And 26 of those 95 receiving were garbage yards when UT was in prevent defense on the next to last play of the game, so he only had 69 the rest of the game.

White played more as the game progressed because Bush could not get it done. Ten (for 54 yards) of Bush's 13 carries came in the first half, when SC only scored 10 points (thanks more to a UT fumble than his running).

As for the Pac-10 defenses...they get a bad wrap because they suck. What makes you think that they're good?

True. Bush did not play well. I just don't think he laid an egg either. I did expect more out of him.

I think the Pac 10 gets a bad rap in general. A lot of people like to claim how great the UT defense was and how they "stopped" Reggie Bush. From what I saw, the UT defense stopped USC as well as a lot of those "crappy" Pac 10 defenses.

I'm not saying that their defenses are good - I just think the conference in general doesn't get any respect. If the vaunted Texas defense gave up 550+ yards and 38 points to USC, maybe that just says something about the quality of Pac 10 offenses.

[Harrisment]

has anyone pondered this idea....trade up into the first rd and get white....he would compliment DD well....and we get VY to groom behind Carr for a season or 2.....but i heard rumors that Green Bay likes white at 5...and that would kill this idea.... =)


LEARN TO READ THE BIG PRETTY STICKY AT THE TOP

[gucci888]

True. Bush did not play well. I just don't think he laid an egg either. I did expect more out of him.

I think the Pac 10 gets a bad rap in general. A lot of people like to claim how great the UT defense was and how they "stopped" Reggie Bush. From what I saw, the UT defense stopped USC as well as a lot of those "crappy" Pac 10 defenses.

I'm not saying that their defenses are good - I just think the conference in general doesn't get any respect. If the vaunted Texas defense gave up 550+ yards and 38 points to USC, maybe that just says something about the quality of Pac 10 offenses.

The Pac10 does get a bad rap in general, but other than USC, they don't have good enough teams to show otherwise, especially on the defensive side.

I wouldn't say UT stopped USC's offense, like you said, we still gave up 550 yards and 38 points. Leinart played a great game, White was unstoppable, and Jarrett was great. But I would say that we stopped Bush, he still put up some numbers, but if you can contain him from the sidelines, he doesn't get a lot of chances to "break away."

[wesnesked]

Bush Maybe Barry Sanders but
that is not a good thing


Dumbest thing I've ever seen on this board!

[IC2000]

Steve McNair had the luxury of sitting a couple of years before he took on the starting job...His mechanics weren't bad, but they weren't great (upside)...I agree we have so many other needs, but the best athlete/player on the board is Vince Young, period (see past two Rose Bowls and entire college career)...VY has unique competitiveness, toughness, leadership or heart...
i know you don't really mean college career of Young do you?

[IC2000]

Frank Gore is dyslexic ~ obviously you're trying to disparage a man who has overcome a learning disability (and two blown knees) to make the NFL.
Did not know that, sorry to frank gore. Insert another person who had a low score then, whoever you would like

[rimrocker]

I just don't get the criticism that Young's throwing motion is a negative. It might be if he's only 6', but at 6'5" or 6" he's probably releasing the ball at a higher point then most QB's with perfect form. In the photo below, I bet the ball's released at around 6'8" or more even with him in a semi-crouch. A little coaching and he could even move it up a little. And it sure looks to me like he can throws darts when needed. The ultimate payoff for the Texans is potentially much greater if they go with Young. If Bush, the best case scenario I can see is something similar to an OJ-led Bills or a Sanders-led Lions... some decent seasons, maybe a playoff appearance or two, never real contenders for the Super Bowl.

http://www.tommyburley.com/Sports/young_vince_02.jpeg

[bigtexxx]

What about our second round pick? From the latest mock draft that I saw (nfl draft countdown), it looks like the early entrants are pushing some nice offensive line prospects down into the second round. Georgia's duo of Max Jean Gilles and the TE Pope could be available. I'd be pleased with either of them, especially Pope.

[reggietodd]

Want to bet?

If the Texans draft VY with the #1 overall pick, you get to pick my signature for 1 year. I'll also paint my face orange, go onto 610 and sing the UT anthem while wearing a shirt that says, "Chance is my daddy" & "I was owned on www.clutchfans.net"

What will you do if they don't take VY? If its reasonable, i'll take the bet.

[gucci888]

If the Texans draft VY with the #1 overall pick, you get to pick my signature for 1 year. I'll also paint my face orange, go onto 610 and sing the UT anthem while wearing a shirt that says, "Chance is my daddy" & "I was owned on www.clutchfans.net"

What will you do if they don't take VY? If its reasonable, i'll take the bet.

Wow! That sounds more like a game bet than a who we're gonna draft bet.

[Desert Scar]

....Comparing VY to Steve Young is just unfathomable to me. Just my opinion though.
.

Actually Steve Young is an excellent comparison if you remember him well. Superfast, like 4.5 speed (ran for over 4000 yards in the NFL), OK but not great arm where he excelled through those loopy but accurate short to medium passes mainly.

Other than VY being another 3+ inches taller/30lbs bigger there is a ton of similarity as prospects once you look behind the systems. I have little doubt VY would have been successfull is the systems SY and S McNair played in. VY played against so much better caoched and so much more talented defenses, and still lead the nation in passing efficiency.

Of course it doesn't mean VY will the passer in the pros like SY or McNair, but you certainly can't discount it. Look at the competition the latter two players played with, or Ben Rothlesburger for that matter.


Unfathomable? Don't forget Steve Young was deemed a bust so Tampa Bay saw fit to trade him.

Yes his first 2 NFL seasons were not good.

[Cohen]

True. Bush did not play well. I just don't think he laid an egg either. I did expect more out of him.

I think the Pac 10 gets a bad rap in general. A lot of people like to claim how great the UT defense was and how they "stopped" Reggie Bush. From what I saw, the UT defense stopped USC as well as a lot of those "crappy" Pac 10 defenses.

I'm not saying that their defenses are good - I just think the conference in general doesn't get any respect. If the vaunted Texas defense gave up 550+ yards and 38 points to USC, maybe that just says something about the quality of Pac 10 offenses.



I doubt that any of the Pac10s would hold SC to even 550 yards if they played them in the Rose Bowl, with weeks to prepare esp. for their defense.

Pac-10 always gets a lot of credit for what they do well, offense. Some people (including sprots writers) get all excited about offenses and forget about the importance of defenses. I think that stokes the disdain for the conference's weak defenses.

[DaDakota]

"As draft day grows more imminent, the traditional football wisdom will remind decision makers that it's the franchise quarterback who transforms teams," he said. "He's the one who takes them to the playoffs and on to Super Bowls."

- Former 49ers Coach Bill Walsh

Los Angeles Times 1/6/06

[percicles]

What about our second round pick? From the latest mock draft that I saw (nfl draft countdown), it looks like the early entrants are pushing some nice offensive line prospects down into the second round. Georgia's duo of Max Jean Gilles and the TE Pope could be available. I'd be pleased with either of them, especially Pope.

Winston Justice might drop on account of character issues. I ask you USC fan if the Texans should risk a second round pick on a guy that might be frequenting 59 & Hillcroft saturday nights.

Pope is gonna be gone before our pick. Mercedes Lewis might be there though.

[gr8-1]

the wonderlick should be interesting, lets see if he beats frank gores record of a 6

sounds like you're rooting for him to not score well on the wonderlick. typical bitter, jealous aggy.

[gr8-1]

Vince Young's throwing motion has been unlocked!

http://www.deadspin.com/sports/vinceyoung.gif

Uncle Rico!



That is a money throw. That little DB was all over the receiver.

[jtotheb]

According to John McClain's Texans Report (Chronicle website) he gives a couple of common sense facts as to why he now thinks that the Texans will draft VY.

http://www.chron.com/sports/

Having listened to his info, I'd still rather the Texans draft Bush but he does make some good points.

Either way, I think we can all agree on one thing: The Texans are about to be reborn again. And, just in time for the Cowgirls.

[Harrisment]

Casserly is on 610 right now for the next hour.

As for the draft, he's basically said it's still early. Any reports coming out right now about who they're going to draft are completely false, especially considering they haven't even hired a coach yet.

When a caller asked about Vince and how "there will be riots" if he's not drafted, he said he understands the loyalty some fans here have, but they can't worry about that when making their selection. The #1 thing is to win football games.

[mogrod]

According to John McClain's Texans Report (Chronicle website) he gives a couple of common sense facts as to why he now thinks that the Texans will draft VY.

http://www.chron.com/sports/

Having listened to his info, I'd still rather the Texans draft Bush but he does make some good points.

Either way, I think we can all agree on one thing: The Texans are about to be reborn again. And, just in time for the Cowgirls.

Wow. McClain knows his sh**, and the fact he just flat out said they will hire Kubiak and draft Young (especially this early) is interesting.

[reggietodd]

Casserly said that fan favorites will not be considered when drafting. He said whatever is best for the team and winning games. Said they have not made up their mind, haven't even hired a head coach and when they do make up their mind, they won't broadcast it. Because trading the pick is still a possibility. Don't want to show your hand early.

He also owned some Red Raider who callled in talking about Wes Welker. lol

[DaDakota]

Wow. McClain knows his sh**, and the fact he just flat out said they will hire Kubiak and draft Young (especially this early) is interesting.

Yep,

I think we will take Young too, and I also believe what he said about Kubiak...

So we have an Aggie coaching a LongHorn...both storied Texas programs playing a big part in the Houston Texans future...

It doesn't get any better than that.

DD

[reggietodd]

Yep,

I think we will take Young too

Then why don't you take the bet with me? After listening to Casserly this morning, i'm even more comfortable taking the bet.

He sounded all business, really like he had a chip on his shoulder, especially the way he owned that Red Raider. He does not care what the fans think, hes going to make the draft pick for what is best for this team.

Take the bet. ?

[DaDakota]

Then why don't you take the bet with me? After listening to Casserly this morning, i'm even more comfortable taking the bet.

He sounded all business, really like he had a chip on his shoulder, especially the way he owned that Red Raider. He does not care what the fans think, hes going to make the draft pick for what is best for this team.

Take the bet. ?

Sure, a Sig bet for 30 days is fine with me.

DD

[rhester]

Casserly is very intelligent and well spoken.
But he has a horrible track record of talent evaluation. Washington-Houston.

Do you know what the difference is between good teams and bad teams?

Talent evaluation.

When people talk about getting David Carr an offensive line and another receiver or a dynamic game breaker like Reggie Bush- what they are not willing to say is that the team is bad because the talent is bad.

Everyone talks about don't blame Carr for this or that because the defense was terrible also. What they don't say is that the defense is bad because the talent is not there. Young safeties who are average in coverage, Faggins who shouldn't be starting, a very soft front seven who were last in the league in run defense. And most important no impact edge pass rusher.

David Carr can be a better quarterback given better teammates.

Reggie Bush would add some big play potential and compensate for DDavis injury situations. But in the long run Casserly would have to become good as a talent evaluator. It is not just the top pick that builds good teams it is good drafting in rounds 2-7 and smart moves. Casserly is below average. Very hit and miss. So our team is about a 5-11 team as far as talent even though we only won 2 games.

In the long run to rebuild the team we must get someone who is a good talent evaluator and use the #1 pick to draft someone to build around.

The right thing to do would be to draft Vince Young and keep Carr for one more season.

Vince Young is a once in a lifetime talent that you can build around.

If this scenario was playing out and this was our first draft (initial season) and Carr was in the draft- think about it- imagine if we were trying to choose between Carr and Young- no brainer the Texans would pick Young.

You see that is why it isn't that hard to know the right thing to do if you frame the situation properly.

If this was David Carr's senior year, and Vince was coming out with the same college career he just had and the Texans were picking for their inaugural season- who do you think they would choose?

We are a 2-14 expansion team- we must rebuild this franchise. Do the right thing and draft the one player we can start rebuilding around.

'Nuff said

[justtxyank]

There was a chronicle article earlier that I can't find now that states that every coach they've interviewed told them Carr wasn't the problem and to draft Bush over Young.

[ROXRAN]

Bush is the right way to go...Carr is good enough. With more weapons, he will be so much better still. I'd rather have a Bushmaster M4 with laser grips, than a newer shotgun when I already have a good enough shotgun, and what makes the arsenal best effective is to look at a lighter, quicker weapon to compliment...

[askball]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/football/13617690.htm

Show time for Vince Young

NFL teams are weighing how quickly Young will be a winning pro. Vince Young made his decision. Now, it's NFL teams' turn to make theirs.
Young has opted to forgo his senior season, announcing his decision to join the NFL a few days after he set a Rose Bowl record with 467 yards of total offense in leading Texas to a 41-38 comeback victory. Young's hometown team, the Houston Texans, has the first overall pick. They were ready to select Southern California running back Reggie Bush, who, as expected, declared for the draft Thursday, but Young might change their decision.
The Texans are in the process of evaluating Young, who would sit behind David Carr for a season or two while learning the team's system.
Young isn't expected to last beyond the third pick, which belongs to the Tennessee Titans.
Michael Vick, to whom Young is being compared, was the No. 1 overall pick in 2001. But Young is considered a more polished player than Vick was coming out of Virginia Tech.
"If [Young] had come out last year, he would have been the best player in the draft," said an AFC head coach, who, by NFL rules, cannot comment on juniors until their declarations are made official Sunday. "Michael Vick is a running back playing quarterback. Vince Young is a quarterback."
Still, until his heroics in the Rose Bowl last week, there were questions about where Young projected in the NFL.
"The guy had a great game on a great stage," said Gil Brandt, former player personnel director for the Cowboys. "We had people earlier this [season] say, 'Well, I don't think Vince can play quarterback [in the NFL]. He's probably a wide receiver.' I never felt that way. He's pretty much a carbon copy of Randall Cunningham, although he can't punt as well."
Still, Young hasn't seen a defense like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He hasn't played in an offense like that of the Denver Broncos, whose offensive coordinator, Gary Kubiak, is expected to be the next head coach of the Texans.
Unlike Bush, who could provide immediate help next season, Young will need time to develop.
Positives
Finds a way to win: Young was 30-2 in his career at Texas, the best record in school history for a quarterback. At Houston Madison, he was 14-1 his senior season, leading his team to the Texas 5A Division II state semifinals. "His bottom line is pretty good -- 30-2," Brandt said.
Leadership skills: Young convinced his teammates to spend the summer in Austin, and the Longhorns had their best participation ever in voluntary seven-on-seven and 11-on-11 workouts. He convinced coach Mack Brown and offensive coordinator Greg Davis to loosen up. Whenever UT got down, Young never lost faith, and the Longhorns never lost faith in him.
Accuracy/touch: Young ranked third in the NCAA with a 163.95 efficiency rating. He completed 65.2 percent of his passes this season. "He's the leading passer in the nation [during the regular season]. What else do you have to say?" said ABC analyst Dan Fouts, a Hall of Fame quarterback.
Running ability/athletic ability: He isn't as quick as Vick, but he is a long strider who has the moves to make defenders miss. Young rushed for 1,050 yards this season and 3,127 in his three seasons.
Height: Texas lists Young at 6-5, 233 pounds. Randall Cunningham, to whom Young has been compared, was 6-4, 212. "Because of his size, he can see the field better," said Chris Landry, a former scout for the Browns, Oilers and Titans.
Negatives
Hasn't played in a pro-style offense: Texas tailored its offense to Young, running the zone read or spread option. Young took most of his snaps out of the shotgun and wasn't required to read the whole field in his pass progressions.
Delivery: A lot has been made of Young's awkward sidearm motion, but the scouts said that part of Young's game doesn't bother them. "He does it in a way that he thinks he can complete the ball," a scout for an AFC team said. "Sometimes he throws the ball like a dart, or he just pitches it, because he can get away with it. Let him throw the way he wants to, but the big thing is he can't do those things when you've got defensive backs standing there waiting. He's got such a good arm that he can get away with it in the college game, but up here, those defensive backs move pretty quick."
Superman mentality: Some of the things Young got away with in college will get him benched -- or carted off the field -- in the NFL. He will have to learn not to force the ball, and, more important, learn how to protect himself. "If [Young] had those designed runs in the NFL, he probably wouldn't make it to Week 4," said ESPN analyst Merrill Hoge, an NFL running back for eight seasons.
Ball security: Young bobbled three center snaps against Missouri. He had two fumbles against Texas A&M, losing one.
Only three years of major college playing experience: "I think he would have become a much better player a lot quicker had he stayed and got another year's worth of experience," Brandt said.

Ready, or not
Texas quarterback Vince Young is headed to the pros. The question for NFL general managers is if he is ready to play there:
YES He finds a way to win, evidenced by his 30-2 record as a starter at Texas. His leadership skills are off the charts; just ask his teammates. His passer rating was third in the country. He is unequaled as a runner at that position. Size matters, and at 6-foot-5, he easily surveys the field.
NO He is inexperienced in a pro-style offense, thanks to UT's zone read and spread option. His delivery will need work at the next level. That Superman mentality could get him carted off an NFL field. Ball security means no bobbled center snaps or fumbles. A senior season would be valuable experience.


Sorry if this has been posted

[robbie380]

Then why don't you take the bet with me? After listening to Casserly this morning, i'm even more comfortable taking the bet.

He sounded all business, really like he had a chip on his shoulder, especially the way he owned that Red Raider. He does not care what the fans think, hes going to make the draft pick for what is best for this team.

Take the bet. ?


oh man...casserly with a chip on his shoulder doesn't sound like a good thing :( :( :( :( :(

[MadMax]

Then why don't you take the bet with me? After listening to Casserly this morning, i'm even more comfortable taking the bet.

He sounded all business, really like he had a chip on his shoulder, especially the way he owned that Red Raider. He does not care what the fans think, hes going to make the draft pick for what is best for this team.

Take the bet. ?

do you think Casserly will be the key decision maker on this pick? i highly doubt it.

[DaDakota]

do you think Casserly will be the key decision maker on this pick? i highly doubt it.

This is what cracks me up about the argument.

As a business owner, I let small decisions be done by my senior managers, but EVERY major decision, I have final say.

I am certain Bob McNair has the same thing....and he is a businessman first, and he sees those dollar signs, and all those fans in Texas that will now root for HIS team and not the Cowboys....

It is a win win.....

Young in '06...take it to the bank.

DD

[ROXRAN]

There is a lot of "roots" influence here on Young clouding realism, but here's tha bottom line...

Micheal Vick, Joe Montana, whomever you think is bonafide couldn't do much better than Carr with what Carr has around him on offense. Vince Young is INexperienced, and what about that. What about someone who makes DD even better? What about someone who makes Andre Johnson that much better? What about not one, but two in the backfield that creates sirius receiving potential with speed +P extra speed? What about the implications of defenses guessing, being on edge, and confused with where to cover, how to cover, and such...

Reggie Bush will do this. He is too special to be blinded in roots when the sky is the limit towards what the Texans can do and how he will impact everyone's potential. Carr is good enough, and O yea...he will be positively impacted as well.

Thank you...

[gucci888]

One thing is pretty clear, the Texans aren't going to let anyone know what they plan on doing until April 16th. I will take all reports lightly, and to be honest, I'll even take what Casserly says lightly. The final decision should be made by McNair and Kubiak (or whoever the next coach is). Casserly's track record is a joke and I would sure hate for him to be the guy that makes or breaks this franchise. Casserly should have been canned along w/ Dom, I don't see in any form or fashion why this guy still has a job.

With that being said, I don't think you can go wrong w/ Bush or Young. I think both will be great players, but I think picking Young will bring that excitement and buzz this franchise needs. If they pick Young, I hope it's not because of the popularity, but because they feel he can be the player that can turn this franchise around.

My 2Cents- Gucci

[YaoMing]

I am tired of hearing all about this Bush or Young debate across this board. The Houston Texans WILL select Reggie Bush with the first pick in the draft and here are the reasons why:

Reason 1 - Dan Reeves has recommended to the Houston Texans organization that David Carr is a quality QB that has the tools to be a succesful QB in this league.

"Texans owner Bob McNair made the decision after getting extensive evaluations from various sources that strongly endorsed Carr, including a favorable report from Dan Reeves, the former longtime NFL coach hired last month as a consultant."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2283797

This would lead us to believe they are leaning towards keeping David Carr.


Reason 2 - The leading candidate for the Texans coaching spot Gary Kubiak has also provided favorable reviews for David Carr at the QB position during interviews with the Texans.

"I think, first off, he's got tremendous ability," Kubiak said of Carr. "We all know he's a great kid. . . . He'd be a joy to work with. He's got some weapons around him to help make him better."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10748423/from/RL.1/

The key word in that quote above is "weapons around him." Who is more of a weapon then Reggie Bush. This would lead us to believe again they are leaning towards keeping D. Carr and drafting Bush if Kubiak is the coach.


Reason 3 - Reggie Bush is a RB, and Vince Young is a QB. The Texans dont need a QB, and we all know the development of a QB in this league takes some time. After last seasonn the Texans are growing impatient, and so are fans. The need to get better soon is apparent, and Reggie Bush provides the best possible opportunity to get better more quickly. Vince Young will take 2 seasons minimum to adjust to the NFL and a new system.

Reggie is also a more versataile player as explained by Casserly:

"If you have a Reggie Bush, he's an explosive player. Hands on the ball, he can score any time he gets it," Casserly said. "He can be a runner, he can be a receiver, he can be a returner and he could be a decoy. You put him in motion and all of a sudden he can free up coverages.

"I think he gives you a lot of options, plus he gives you a touchdown-maker and another playmaker on offense."


Reason 4 - Reggie Bush won the heisman trophy! After 12 games Bush was the runaway choice for Heisman winner and it was not even close. This goes to show you that experts from around the country were all in agreement. This includes the South and Southwest regions of the United Sates. In fact Bush beat out Young for hiesman voting in every single region.


Reason 5 - Reggie Bush is a more well rounded human being. He is more mature and handles himself in a more controlled way. He is a political science major and a better student then most of the players available in this draft. He presents himself in a more clean cut manner. This is obviously not the most important thing, but is always a favored trait by owners and coaches.



CASE CLOSED

[pgabriel]

There is a lot of "roots" influence here on Young clouding realism, but here's tha bottom line...

Micheal Vick, Joe Montana, whomever you think is bonafide couldn't do much better than Carr with what Carr has around him on offense. Vince Young is INexperienced, and what about that. What about someone who makes DD even better? What about someone who makes Andre Johnson that much better? What about not one, but two in the backfield that creates sirius receiving potential with speed +P extra speed? What about the implications of defenses guessing, being on edge, and confused with where to cover, how to cover, and such...

Reggie Bush will do this. He is too special to be blinded in roots when the sky is the limit towards what the Texans can do and how he will impact everyone's potential. Carr is good enough, and O yea...he will be positively impacted as well.

Thank you...


any argument that argues that either one of these guys is more special than the other just doesn't make sense. 500 yards in a game is special. 250 pass 200 rush in a national championship game is special, 10 yards a play is special, 3000 1000 is special. Vince made his receivers better this year by being a leader and staying after practice with them. Bush opens up the offense for everyone.


this isn't about who's more special, they're both incredible talents.

[rhester]

I am tired of hearing all about this Bush or Young debate across this board. The Houston Texans WILL select Reggie Bush with the first pick in the draft and here are the reasons why:

Reason 1 - Dan Reeves has recommended to the Houston Texans organization that David Carr is a quality QB that has the tools to be a succesful QB in this league.

"Texans owner Bob McNair made the decision after getting extensive evaluations from various sources that strongly endorsed Carr, including a favorable report from Dan Reeves, the former longtime NFL coach hired last month as a consultant."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2283797

This would lead us to believe they are leaning towards keeping David Carr.


Reason 2 - The leading candidate for the Texans coaching spot Gary Kubiak has also provided favorable reviews for David Carr at the QB position during interviews with the Texans.

"I think, first off, he's got tremendous ability," Kubiak said of Carr. "We all know he's a great kid. . . . He'd be a joy to work with. He's got some weapons around him to help make him better."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10748423/from/RL.1/

The key word in that quote above is "weapons around him." Who is more of a weapon then Reggie Bush. This would lead us to believe again they are leaning towards keeping D. Carr and drafting Bush if Kubiak is the coach.


Reason 3 - Reggie Bush is a RB, and Vince Young is a QB. The Texans dont need a QB, and we all know the development of a QB in this league takes some time. After last seasonn the Texans are growing impatient, and so are fans. The need to get better soon is apparent, and Reggie Bush provides the best possible opportunity to get better more quickly. Vince Young will take 2 seasons minimum to adjust to the NFL and a new system.

Reggie is also a more versataile player as explained by Casserly:

"If you have a Reggie Bush, he's an explosive player. Hands on the ball, he can score any time he gets it," Casserly said. "He can be a runner, he can be a receiver, he can be a returner and he could be a decoy. You put him in motion and all of a sudden he can free up coverages.

"I think he gives you a lot of options, plus he gives you a touchdown-maker and another playmaker on offense."


Reason 4 - Reggie Bush won the heisman trophy! After 12 games Bush was the runaway choice for Heisman winner and it was not even close. This goes to show you that experts from around the country were all in agreement. This includes the South and Southwest regions of the United Sates. In fact Bush beat out Young for hiesman voting in every single region.


Reason 5 - Reggie Bush is a more well rounded human being. He is more mature and handles himself in a more controlled way. He is a political science major and a better student then most of the players available in this draft. He presents himself in a more clean cut manner. This is obviously not the most important thing, but is always a favored trait by owners and coaches.



CASE CLOSED

You are right, but it is a huge mistake and here is why-

Reason 1- Yes David Carr has the tools to be a quality quarterback.
Reason 2- Who is more of a weapon that Reggie Bush- Vince Young, a far greater weapon who can put more pressure on NFL defenses and be involved in more impact plays and provide more scoring, leadership and clutch plays than Reggie Bush ever could.
Reason 3- The Texans don't need a QB any more than they don't need a running back. Is Reggie Bush a bigger upgrade of yards and scoring than Dominique Davis? Or is Vince Young a bigger ugrade over David Carr. When you are a 2-14 team drafting based upon supposed need with the #1 pick in the draft you have no vision or perspective of getting to a Super Bowl. We need a pass rusher worse than a running back.
Reason 3B- Reggie is more versatile, more explosive? Give me a break- Vince Young is twice as versatile as Reggie Bush. Vince can make plays throwing and running. Vince will be able to put pressure on defenses in the pocket and outside the pocket and up field. He will be field general and be touching the ball every offensive down. He will have more touchdowns and big plays than Reggie Bush in the first 2-3 yrs of their careers- Bank it.
Reason 4-5 Mean nothing

YaoMing answer this one question- If David Carr were coming out this season into the draft along with Vince Young and their careers were as they were who do you think the Texans would be selecting? Both rookies this season.

Unless you can frame this choice in the right perspective and you understand this team shouldn't be looking for a quick fix but a Super Bowl you will not make the right choice. And I am sure we won't.

Most NFL experts have very poor % of selecting good talent in the first round, no better than you or I. Just do the math and check the % of 1 round picks that are pro bowlers and hall of fame players. It is low. In other words most of the time the best players are skipped by poor decisions in the first round.

In other words the experts passed most of the time on the best talent and drafted losers in the first round. Not all the time, but the higher % of the time.

They are experts because they had on the field success or they work in the league. But most good talent evaluators in the NFL make smart player personnel moves.

We will not this draft.

[percicles]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060113

Even Skip Bayless has jumped on the Saint Vincent tour. I question this guys motives, he is a notorious UT hater.


By Skip Bayless
Page 2


Some people involved in Houston Texans management sound as if they've talked themselves into making a far worse mistake than I did.


All I risked was getting trampled by a stampede of Longhorns e-mail telling me how I should be fired for picking Matt-Reggie-LenDale to out-Heisman Texas, 35-17.



I felt pretty good about my prediction when a fourth Trojan who'll make NFL Pro Bowl teams -- Dwayne Jarrett -- slam-dunked the ball over the goal line to give "my" team a 38-26 lead. But Vince Young basically yawned, and grinned, and proceeded to make Matt-Reggie-LenDale-Dwayne look like third-rounders. Texas reigns, 41-38.


Lord (and the Longhorns) have mercy, did I ever underestimate Vincent Paul Young Jr.


An NFL personnel director who encouraged me to pick USC told me on Thursday: "That's the closest thing I've seen to Michael Jordan since he left Chicago. I watched this kid every game this year, and he just got better and better and better until you finally step back and say, 'I've never seen anything like him.' I don't want to hear another word about David Carr. The Texans will never live it down if they don't take Vince Young."


Never, ever.


This young man has a 6-foot-5, 235-pound blend of talent and intangibles never before seen in a quarterback. I don't want to hear another word comparing Young with Michael Vick or Daunte Culpepper or Randall Cunningham. He's in another stratosphere as a passer/runner/leader.


Young could eventually do for the Texans what he did for couldn't-win-the-big-one Mack Brown. Shrug, grin, watch this. Follow him, Texans, to the top.


But I'm preaching to a shrieking choir in Houston. Young is their native son -- a legendary product of Madison High School -- and Texans fans are like NASA rockets ready to launch on team management if it sticks with its original plan to take Reggie Bush.


Bush made it official Thursday: He's turning pro and he said he wouldn't mind at all if Houston took him with the No. 1 pick. After all, didn't it look suspiciously like the Texans gave it their all to lose the "Bush Bowl" in the season finale against San Francisco -- and win Reggie?


Indeed, if Reggie Bush avoids knee surgery, he'll be a Hall of Famer.


But Texans fans are right: Their team would be crazy not to take Vince.


"If they don't," says Houston Chronicle columnist Richard Justice, "they'll need an armed perimeter around the stadium to keep fans from storming it. Vince is all anyone is talking about."


So how in the name of Vince Young are so many national insiders, beginning with ESPN's Chris Mortensen and Mel Kiper, saying the Texans will take Bush?


Because that's what general manager Charley Casserly is saying. That's what advisor Dan Reeves indicated after a month of evaluating (and endorsing) quarterback David Carr. And according to Texans insiders, that's what the team's next head coach said he wanted when he was interviewed for the job.


The Houston Chronicle has reported that Denver offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak (who was recommended by Reeves) will be hired as soon as the Broncos' season ends.


Kubiak, Reeves and Casserly are traditional, conservative, by-the-book pro football men who obviously are thinking: So this kid had one great game against a bunch of guys who won't make it in our league. Running quarterbacks have always gotten hurt or gotten you beat in the National Football League, and that little wristy, sidearm flip of Vince Young's and his very average arm strength won't get it done against the likes of Champ Bailey and Sean Taylor.


We have a former No. 1 overall pick in David Carr, who has the talent but just needs some coaching and some blocking. We need the next Gale Sayers or Marshall Faulk. We need Reggie Bush.


Sound, but short-sighted, logic.


Which brings us to the man with the deciding vote: owner Bob McNair. Team sources say there's no way he'll allow his franchise to pass on a home-grown quarterback who could instantly turn Texans tickets into the hottest in town. Roger who?


Texans business staffers have half-joked that the team could double ticket prices the moment Young is selected on draft day. What an astonishing turnaround that would be for a Reliant Stadium that often felt more like a half-empty library during this season's home games.


Madison Avenue analysts are projecting Young could quickly become the NFL's most marketable star -- its LeBron, a Michael Vick who can live up to the hype.


Yet McNair won't insist on Young just to sell a few more tickets and make his two sons who graduated from Texas happy. No, McNair knows all that really matters is winning. Winning sells.


And McNair knows this about Vince Young: Above all else, he's a leader and a winner. His high school and college teammates believed in and followed him. That won't change in the pros.


And the Texans can risk letting Young fall to (and turn around) the New Orleans Saints? Or -- their worst nightmare -- the Tennessee Titans?


The Titans were the Houston Oilers -- until owner Bud Adams got a better deal and moved them to Nashville, Tenn. The last thing a Houston football fan wants to see is Vince Young win Bud Adams his first Super Bowl. That would haunt the Texans franchise for a long time.


The Titans pick third, after New Orleans. Titans quarterback Steve McNair has been a big brother to Young, and would love to teach him the ropes while playing one more season. Bob McNair cannot allow that to happen.


Furthermore, the Texans' owner cannot allow his team to sentence Reggie Bush to life as a Texan. Bush could be a combination Sayers/Faulk and still never quite live up to what Texans fans believe Young could be. Imagine Reggie flashing and dashing for, say, 65 yards on 15 carries in his rookie debut, and getting booed.


No, the Texans simply must take Young -- and trade Carr. That's the educated guess: That Carr will be paid the $8 million bonus that keeps him from becoming a free agent, then he'll be traded, possibly to Miami, hopefully for a first-round pick. Carr isn't bad. But he isn't Vince. He isn't much of a leader.


If the Texans take Young, it sounds like they'll also hire the offensive coordinator he came to believe in at Texas -- Greg Davis. No one knows better how to tailor an offense around Young's extraordinary gifts than Davis.


Davis knows there's one big difference between Young and Vick: Young is pass-first and runs only when he has to. Vick runs because he wants and needs to -- because that's what his short-sighted fans expect. Basically, if tight end Alge Crumpler isn't immediately and obviously open, Vick takes off.


Vick is still the NFL's most dangerous broken-field runner. But he's playing the wrong position. At what appears to be a shade under 6 feet, Vick has trouble seeing over Young-sized defensive linemen, and he still doesn't have much feel or rhythm for reading his progressions and finding and hitting open receivers.


Again, Young is 6-5, which allows him to get away with passing mechanics that will offend most NFL coordinators and draft geeks. But what amazed me most about the USC-Texas game was that Young repeatedly made the right decision and flicked quick-release passes that hit receivers right in the hands.



Remember, USC coach Pete Carroll was a highly respected NFL defensive coordinator, and he had 32 days to prepare for Young. He should have blitzed more. But even Carroll was intimidated by this kid's freakish ability.


The amazing thing about Young is that he throws and runs so effortlessly that you underestimate his velocity and quickness. He doesn't look like he's throwing hard -- but the ball sure gets there in a hurry. He doesn't look like he can get that 6-5 frame in gear too quickly -- yet he eases past blitzing linebackers and cornerbacks as if they're standing still. No defender ever seems to nail him with a good shot. He hits them harder than they ever hit him. He's stronger and more athletic than Culpepper.


He's deceptively Jordanesque.


I still say USC would win 7 of 10 games against Texas. Yet Vince Young overcame USC's 574 yards and 38 points with play after extraordinary play -- climaxing on fourth-and-5 from the 9-yard line. Make it or lose the national championship. Young glanced at one-two-three covered receivers, then took off from his 16 and beat the entire USC defense to the corner of the end zone untouched.


MJ over Cleveland's Craig Ehlo.


And some commentators are chortling that the Texans must wish LenDale White had gained another half-yard on that late fourth-and-2 so USC would have won and the Texans could take Bush? No, the Texans should drop to their knees and give thanks they "won" the first pick the year In-Vince-ible was available.


Am I overreacting to one game? No. I've seen the light and the future: Vince Young of the Houston Texans.

Skip
Bayless
THE NEXT MJ

[Desert Scar]

Skip Bayless stepped up a ate some humble pie on this one. And I think he is mostly right.

YaoMing coing from the TJ school

CASE CLOSED

Don't you think you might be a little overconfident? Might take a lesson from Skip.

[Clutch]

Even Skip Bayless has jumped on the Saint Vincent tour. I question this guys motives, he is a notorious UT hater.

That right there is what you call a "skip-flop".

True, but if he bashes the Texans down the road for not taking Bush (for example), there will always be this article to refer to :)

[pgabriel]

I didn't want to say it but there it is,


Michael Jordan.

[mulletman]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/football/13617690.htm

He's got such a good arm that he can get away with it in the college game, but up here, those defensive backs move pretty quick."

whats the scouting report on vince's arm strength?

i've read conflicting reports - in the article above, it mentions that he has a "good arm", but in the Skip Bayless article and in other places, it mentions that his arm strength is only average....

[Mack]

whats the scouting report on vince's arm strength?

i've read conflicting reports - in the article above, it mentions that he has a "good arm", but in the Skip Bayless article and in other places, it mentions that his arm strength is only average....

To me it looks like he's got a good arm, he just doesn't showcase it. He puts touch on his passes, and throws a catchable ball, with a quick-release. If he really needs to jam a ball between defenders, I think he has the arm to do it, he just may have to tinker with his throwing motion to do it on the NFL level.

[kaleidosky]

To me it looks like he's got a good arm, he just doesn't showcase it. He puts touch on his passes, and throws a catchable ball, with a quick-release. If he really needs to jam a ball between defenders, I think he has the arm to do it, he just may have to tinker with his throwing motion to do it on the NFL level.

If you're right about that, I move from my "50-50-so-i-guess-i'll-go-with-bush" stance and swing all the way in Vince's favor. That's my biggest question..whether he can "jam a ball between defenders"

[YaoMing]

You are right, but it is a huge mistake and here is why-

Reason 1- Yes David Carr has the tools to be a quality quarterback.
Reason 2- Who is more of a weapon that Reggie Bush- Vince Young, a far greater weapon who can put more pressure on NFL defenses and be involved in more impact plays and provide more scoring, leadership and clutch plays than Reggie Bush ever could.
Reason 3- The Texans don't need a QB any more than they don't need a running back. Is Reggie Bush a bigger upgrade of yards and scoring than Dominique Davis? Or is Vince Young a bigger ugrade over David Carr. When you are a 2-14 team drafting based upon supposed need with the #1 pick in the draft you have no vision or perspective of getting to a Super Bowl. We need a pass rusher worse than a running back.
Reason 3B- Reggie is more versatile, more explosive? Give me a break- Vince Young is twice as versatile as Reggie Bush. Vince can make plays throwing and running. Vince will be able to put pressure on defenses in the pocket and outside the pocket and up field. He will be field general and be touching the ball every offensive down. He will have more touchdowns and big plays than Reggie Bush in the first 2-3 yrs of their careers- Bank it.
Reason 4-5 Mean nothing

YaoMing answer this one question- If David Carr were coming out this season into the draft along with Vince Young and their careers were as they were who do you think the Texans would be selecting? Both rookies this season.

Unless you can frame this choice in the right perspective and you understand this team shouldn't be looking for a quick fix but a Super Bowl you will not make the right choice. And I am sure we won't.

Most NFL experts have very poor % of selecting good talent in the first round, no better than you or I. Just do the math and check the % of 1 round picks that are pro bowlers and hall of fame players. It is low. In other words most of the time the best players are skipped by poor decisions in the first round.

In other words the experts passed most of the time on the best talent and drafted losers in the first round. Not all the time, but the higher % of the time.

They are experts because they had on the field success or they work in the league. But most good talent evaluators in the NFL make smart player personnel moves.

We will not this draft.

Rhester - You make some valid points. The best I have heard yet, but I think you are downplaying the ability of Reggie Bush too much. What this guy did in College was nuts. There is a reason he destroyed Vince Young in the Heisman voting on all events leading up to the Rose Bowl. The Rose Bowl has definately made things confusing, but at this point Vince Youngs ability translated into the NFL is still a major question. I would rather put David Car at the helm, as he has proven he can win with an 8 win season, and draft Reggie a sure fire offensive weapon and star. Picking a good QB in the draft in the past has proven just as difficult as any other position. You speak too confidently regarding Vince Young and how he will preform in the NFL, and I just dont see how you can. QB is not about physical ability as much as mental ability. Whereas, Reggie Bush is a flat out athlete that you can use anywhere on the field.

In my opinion RB is just more of a sure thing.

[DaDakota]

Skip Bayless must read this BBS, welcome aboard Skip, hook up for the ride.

GO TEXANS & Vince Young !

DD

[rimrocker]

In today's edition of the Arizona Republic, their columnist who specializes in (for lack of a better term) Sports Gossip had a blurb saying Vince has yet to hire an agent and is having second thoughts about coming out early. Is this guy talking out his behind or has anyone else heard this?

(Saw it in print, can't find it on thier site.)

[anon3803]

Rhester - You make some valid points. The best I have heard yet, but I think you are downplaying the ability of Reggie Bush too much. What this guy did in College was nuts. There is a reason he destroyed Vince Young in the Heisman voting on all events leading up to the Rose Bowl. The Rose Bowl has definately made things confusing, but at this point Vince Youngs ability translated into the NFL is still a major question. I would rather put David Car at the helm, as he has proven he can win with an 8 win season, and draft Reggie a sure fire offensive weapon and star. Picking a good QB in the draft in the past has proven just as difficult as any other position. You speak too confidently regarding Vince Young and how he will preform in the NFL, and I just dont see how you can. QB is not about physical ability as much as mental ability. Whereas, Reggie Bush is a flat out athlete that you can use anywhere on the field.

In my opinion RB is just more of a sure thing.

Running backs are a dime a dozen. Denver is a perfect example that with the right system a team can pickup a 1,000 yd rusher pretty easily. YaoMing, I'm not sure if you're aware of this but Reggie Bush was behind Vince Young for most of the year in the ESPN Heisman polls up to the second to last game of the regular season. For good reason too, he was underperforming. It wasn't until his breakout 500+ yd. game against a very slow Fresno St. squad that his stock skyrocketed and everyone jumped on the bandwagon and started drinking the USC Kool-Aid. THAT is the reason Reggie destroyed Vince in the Heisman voting.

Great QBs are extremely hard to come by. . . is VY a guaranteed great QB? Absolutely not, but can you pass on a possible great, HOF, franchise QB? IMO You can't. I think if you go back and look at some of the UT games this season and listen to some of Vince's interviews you'll realize the mental ability and workethic is defintely there for Vince. A great leader at quarterback makes the whole team better, and I don't think there's any doubt of VY's leadership. A good site to visit is http://www.jcdenton40.com/ It has a lot of UT highlight clips over the past few years. There's even a clip titled "Vince Young shows incredible arm strength". I encourage any doubters to flip through the clips, there are some nice long passes in there.

I'll take Skip Bayless's comparison to MJ goes one step further, VY will likely also be drafted 3rd overall. . .

[rimrocker]

I'm an idiot... here it is off the front of their Sports page:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0113p2main0113.html

Eyes of Texas on Young

Bob Young
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 13, 2006 12:00 AM

Now that Reggie Bush has made it official and announced that he will forgo his final season at Southern California to jump to the NFL, it looks like it's going to be a terrific draft.

At least, it will be unless there's some truth to what we read on ProFootballTalk.com's rumor mill about Texas quarterback Vince Young possibly having second thoughts.

Young evidently hasn't hired an agent yet and, according to the report, NFL insiders "expect" Texas coach Mack Brown to try to convince Young to change his mind.
advertisement


Well, duh. Of course Brown should make one last pitch. After all, the guy doesn't have a quarterback groomed to replace Young.

He's going to have to go with freshmen or a junior college transfer, and that's no recipe for a repeat.

Unfortunately for Brown, we figure the conversation will go something like this:

Young: "Coach, you wanted to see me?"

Brown: "Hey big fella. C'mon in here. Take my chair. Have your hired an agent yet?

Young: "Not yet."

Brown: "Good. Good. You know, it's not too late to change your mind if you don't have an agent. You could come back and win another national title, probably a Heisman Trophy."

Young: "What if I got hurt?"

Brown: "They have insurance for that sort of thing."

Young: "Yeah? Who's paying the premiums?"

Brown: "Well, you'd probably have to get some help from your family with that. My hands are tied there."

Young: "But I'd only collect if I got hurt so badly I couldn't play as a pro at all."

Brown: "Vince, you're a big, strong kid. You'll be fine. And if you have a big year, you might be the No. 1 pick. The best you're going to do now is No. 3, the way I see it."

Young: "Way I see it, Matt Leinart is going to drop to No. 3 - and he would have been No. 1 a year ago. What's he got to show for going back besides one credit for ballroom dancing?"

Brown: "Alyssa Milano? Look, Vince, I'm in kind of a fix here. I got nobody at quarterback. Did I mention the Heisman? That's immortality right there."

Young: "I got $20 million in signing bonuses and incentives coming. I can commission a life-sized bronze of myself in the Heisman pose and let you put it outside the stadium. That would be a kick."

Brown: "Oh, uh, yeah. That's great. Where did you say you're at with the agent again?"

Vince: "I'm interviewing candidates."

Brown: "Mind if I fill out an application?"

[JunkyardDwg]

This was a good read, cause it points to the fact that there are a lot of people in the NFL and within the organization that are a LOT more qualified than the average joe fan when it comes to evaluating and selecting talent.


Jan. 13, 2006, 12:46AM
Bush gives Texans best route to wins

By JOHN P. LOPEZ
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

The Texans' decision-makers met Tuesday and Wednesday to wrap up discussions on whom to hire as head coach.

The meetings ended exactly how we expected they would: Gary Kubiak is their man.

The only thing left to do is wait for a Denver Broncos playoff loss so Texans owner Bob McNair can announce Kubiak as Dom Capers' successor.

But along the way toward bringing one hometown boy home, Texans leadership used the interviewing process to help make a more important, even tougher call regarding the great Vince Young or Reggie Bush debate.

With seven top NFL minds at their disposal during the interviews, McNair and his top advisers decided to use the coaches as a panel of experts, so to speak, on top of their scouting and personnel staff.

And the survey says ...
They asked each candidate to evaluate David Carr. And McNair and Co. wanted details.

Critique Carr's performance. What kind of leadership do you think Carr displayed? What would you do different? Rank Carr among all NFL quarterbacks. Can you win with him?

All seven candidates voiced the same opinion. Carr is not the problem.

The Texans then asked each candidate about Bush and pressed Fresno State's Pat Hill, a former NFL personnel man whose team played USC this season, meaning he had watched about 10 games' worth of tape on Bush.

Again, it was unanimous. All seven told the Texans: Draft Bush.

Thus, McNair will approach the Vince vs. Reggie debate, which became official Thursday when Bush declared for the 2006 draft, the way he does every decision. He will have done his research. And he will have perspective.

He will hear the calls for the hometown hero and understand them. He will be sympathetic to them, and part of McNair will want to act on the sentimental lure of Young.

McNair knows the score
But in the end McNair will listen to the reason and logic of NFL experts, including Kubiak, and make Bush the face of his franchise.

After all, more than anything, McNair wants to win. As Charley Casserly and his staff are breaking down tape and scheduling visits and tests of NFL prospects, McNair's only instruction has been to find a way to get wins quickly.

That's why as soon as the Broncos' season is over, when McNair stands in front of reporters to announce Kubiak as the next coach, he also should announce that he and the front office have decided on Bush as the No. 1 pick.

End the debate. Why let the point-counterpoint go on for another three months, when McNair knows what his club should do with the No. 1 pick?

Seven head coaching candidates, the Texans' personnel staff, consultant Dan Reeves and various other owners and general managers with whom McNair has talked say Carr is playoff-caliber and Bush is the right pick.

Why, in essence, trade Carr and Bush for Young?

Stand there next to Kubiak, who will have at his disposal a three-pronged arsenal of Carr, Bush and Andre Johnson, and announce: "We love Vince Young. We expect him to be a tremendous talent for a long time in the NFL. We would love to see him in a Houston Texans uniform someday. But with Reggie Bush, we know we can compete for a playoff berth next season."

McNair has made billions from making well-researched decisions and never making the same mistake twice. He has told Kubiak that hiring top-level assistants will not be a problem.

If it takes a $1 million a year contract to lure a defensive coordinator who will implement a 4-3 defense and bring an edge to the defensive side of the ball, so be it. If Kubiak wants a quarterbacks coach to also work with Carr — which he does — fine.

Kubiak will serve as offensive coordinator and will call the plays, but if he wants the best offensive line coach available? Go get him, Kubiak has been told.

McNair will equip the new coach with every resource available toward winning and winning soon. As tempting as it might be, why, then, should he make Kubiak wait on Young to develop? Kubiak would rather win now than later.

Every piece of advice McNair has received from NFL people, including his new coach, has been the same: Stick with Carr and take Bush.

http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/texans/3584478.html

[firecat]

I agree that Bob McNair will have the final say on the decision.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that I'm sure that Bob McNair is a big fan of football, not just the Texans. Unless he's been in a Texans only vacuum, I think that it could be easy for him to have followed Vince for the past few years and could maybe even be a fan of Vince.

I think that he could want to take Vince just to see how the whole thing works out, even if it doesn't make perfect football sense. It definitely makes business and marketability sense. Worst case is that Vince doesn't work out at QB, but if he is given a reasonable opportunity to play QB in the league and he fails, he will still make one hell of a wide receiver and won't be a complete waste of pick a la Ryan Leaf.

This board is mostly pro Vince, but I think that it's generally up in the air about which player will be the better NFL prospect. It's not a no-brainer even from the most objective observers, so why not go with the hometown guy with the huge upside potential, that will give your franchise an identity that will solidify the entire fanbase?

[DaDakota]

This was a good read, cause it points to the fact that there are a lot of people in the NFL and within the organization that are a LOT more qualified than the average joe fan when it comes to evaluating and selecting talent.

I wonder how many of those people around the table had ever won a Super Bowl with talent they evaluated?

Are these the same people who wanted Ryan Leaf, or Tim Couch, or Curtis Ennis......

Experts......my arse !

It is all up to the work ethic, mindset, and the situation that the player gets drafted into.....plenty of players that are not mentally tough enough end up average or busts (See David Carr).

What if Reggie Bush can't run between the tackles? What if he turns into a glorified punt returner? There is no can't miss tag on Bush or Young....

But Young would be a bigger mismatch at QB than Bush would be at RB....hell Willie Parker was undrafted and he is a good RB...RBs are far easier to come by than QBs that are athletic freaks and proven winners....

You build around a QB, not a RB....

DD

[anon3803]

That's why as soon as the Broncos' season is over, when McNair stands in front of reporters to announce Kubiak as the next coach, he also should announce that he and the front office have decided on Bush as the No. 1 pick.


No matter who you think is the right pick, I think we call all agree it would quite silly for the Texans to annouce who they have decided on prior to draft day.

[VesceySux]

End the debate. Why let the point-counterpoint go on for another three months, when McNair knows what his club should do with the No. 1 pick?[/URL]

R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D. Lopez, you are a grade A idiot.

That's like hiring someone only on the basis of a good resume. If this were the case in real life, I wouldn't be freaking out about the internship interviews I have coming up in the next few weeks. On the strength of my resume alone, someone would just give me a job without even bothering to check if I'm truly a good fit for the organization. :rolleyes: Good freaking God, I would expect the Texans to be a little more careful than that. If McNair truly loves research and opinions, I expect him to use the upcoming combines, Wonderlic scores, and individual workouts to help make the selection. If that pick is still Bush, then so be it, but you don't end the debate today just because you want everyone to get off your jock about Vince Young. That's completely, totally, absolutely irresponsible and ridiculously short-sighted for the organization. But... I really don't think the Texans will declare Bush the #1 pick until much, much later, anyway. So... I'm left with my original assessment: Lopez is an idiot. (Sadly, this is not exactly shocking information.)

[Icehouse]

R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D. Lopez, you are a grade A idiot.

That's like hiring someone only on the basis of a good resume. If this were the case in real life, I wouldn't be freaking out about the internship interviews I have coming up in the next few weeks. On the strength of my resume alone, someone would just give me a job without even bothering to check if I'm truly a good fit for the organization. :rolleyes: Good freaking God, I would expect the Texans to be a little more careful than that. If McNair truly loves research and opinions, I expect him to use the upcoming combines, Wonderlic scores, and individual workouts to help make the selection. If that pick is still Bush, then so be it, but you don't end the debate today just because you want everyone to get off your jock about Vince Young. That's completely, totally, absolutely irresponsible and ridiculously short-sighted for the organization. But... I really don't think the Texans will declare Bush the #1 pick until much, much later, anyway. So... I'm left with my original assessment: Lopez is an idiot. (Sadly, this is not exactly shocking information.)

I agree.

I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I would call anyone an idiot if they think we will win 10-12 games next year and make the playoffs. I could see the argument if we played in the NFC....

[JunkyardDwg]

Even if you have your heart set on something, that still doesn't mean you don't conntinue to weigh all your options till the last possible moment. You never know, a Vince Young could come out of nowhere. So Lopez is wrong in that sense. But I liked the fact that McNair used the interviews as another way of evaluating the talent he currently has on this squad. And all signs point to David Carr not being the problem. And yes I know, just because he's not the problem doesn' t mean he's the solution either. Still I think this team would benefit more from drafting Bush.

[gr8-1]

Casserly said that fan favorites will not be considered when drafting.


I think it's gonna be Bush.

[gucci888]

I agree.

I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I would call anyone an idiot if they think we will win 10-12 games next year and make the playoffs. I could see the argument if we played in the NFC....

Agreed, this isn't a very good article by Lopez. Anyone who thinks Bush can take a 2-12 team to the playoffs is completely delusional. On top of that, he wants the Texans announce who they're going to take 3 months before the draft?

I guess Lopez is already tired of hearing about VY and Bush. Other than the coaching information, this wasn't a very good article.

[KingCheetah]

The Houston Texans WILL select Reggie Bush with the first pick in the draft and here are the reasons why:

CASE CLOSED

Reason 1 - Dan Reeves has recommended to the Houston Texans organization that David Carr is a quality QB that has the tools to be a succesful QB in this league.


This was before Vince set the world on fire winning the National Championship, Rose Bowl MVP, and of course he had not announced he was coming out yet.


This would lead us to believe they are leaning towards keeping David Carr.


If they were going to trade Carr (this year or next) do you think they would go around dissing him? No.


Reason 2 - The leading candidate for the Texans coaching spot Gary Kubiak has also provided favorable reviews for David Carr at the QB position during interviews with the Texans.

"I think, first off, he's got tremendous ability," Kubiak said of Carr. "We all know he's a great kid. . . . He'd be a joy to work with. He's got some weapons around him to help make him better."


This is a tepid endorsement at best ~ "He's a great kid" - please... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/king.gif


The key word in that quote above is "weapons around him." Who is more of a weapon then Reggie Bush. This would lead us to believe again they are leaning towards keeping D. Carr and drafting Bush if Kubiak is the coach.


You're reaching big time here ~ Carr would need the 5th battalion to break .500 through a full season.


Reason 3 - Reggie Bush is a RB, and Vince Young is a QB. The Texans dont need a QB, and we all know the development of a QB in this league takes some time.


Carr has had 4 years of development and has a 18-46 starting record to show for it ~ we need a QB.


Reggie is also a more versataile player as explained by Casserly:

"If you have a Reggie Bush, he's an explosive player.

"I think he gives you a lot of options, plus he gives you a touchdown-maker and another playmaker on offense."


More versatile than Vince [467 - 3 tds]... Well I guess Vince doesn't return punts, but why would we waste a #1 on a punt returner?


Reason 4 - Reggie Bush won the heisman trophy!


Vince won the National Championship and Rose Bowl MVP and it wasn't even close (Bush stood on the sidelines during USC's biggest play -- MVP?)


Reason 5 - Reggie Bush is a more well rounded human being.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/unlikely.jpg


CASE DISMISSED

[YaoMing]

I wonder how many of those people around the table had ever won a Super Bowl with talent they evaluated?

Are these the same people who wanted Ryan Leaf, or Tim Couch, or Curtis Ennis......

Experts......my arse !

It is all up to the work ethic, mindset, and the situation that the player gets drafted into.....plenty of players that are not mentally tough enough end up average or busts (See David Carr).

What if Reggie Bush can't run between the tackles? What if he turns into a glorified punt returner? There is no can't miss tag on Bush or Young....

But Young would be a bigger mismatch at QB than Bush would be at RB....hell Willie Parker was undrafted and he is a good RB...RBs are far easier to come by than QBs that are athletic freaks and proven winners....

You build around a QB, not a RB....

DD


Dude,

That is the most pathetic and desperate response I have seen yet. Now you are bashing the reported "Expert Panel" of NFL figures. Ill tell you one thing. I gaurnatee every single one of them has more clout in their left pinky nail then you will ever have. If I owned a franchise Im definately leaving things up to you :confused:

Here is a "What if" for you...

What if Vince Young is actually a good QB in this league?

There is more question surrounding Young's ability to avoid the next level speed of D Lineman in this league. Reggie Bush will absolutely be one of the fastest humans in the NFL.

[SamCassell]

I'm not sold on Reggie's speed or escapability. If he was that good, why wasn't he able to elude the Texas defenders more often? He had an ok game, but didn't look like the "fastest human in the NFL" against a college defense. Shouldn't he have been able to elude a good-but-not-great linebacking crew?

[Harrisment]

hell Willie Parker was undrafted and he is a good RB...RBs are far easier to come by than QBs that are athletic freaks and proven winners....

DD

And a 3 time Super Bowl winner who is arguably the best QB in the league and one of the most proven winners ever was drafted in the 6th round. Does that mean great QB's are easy to come by?

[VesceySux]

Wait a sec... Am I wrong, or is Bush supporter John Lopez an Aggie (like others on this board, including Reggietodd)? Hmmmm. If so, it seems I can play the bias card as well.

[Harrisment]

Wait a sec... Am I wrong, or is Bush supporter John Lopez an Aggie (like others on this board, including Reggietodd)? Hmmmm. If so, it seems I can play the bias card as well.

Just for the record I'm not an Aggie, but I've been a Longhorn fan all my life. And if I had to choose, I'd prefer that we draft Bush.

[YaoMing]

But Young would be a bigger mismatch at QB than Bush would be at RB....hell Willie Parker was undrafted and he is a good RB...RBs are far easier to come by than QBs that are athletic freaks and proven winners....

Puhlease!!! If RB's are so easy to come by, then how come every team is not 2 deep at that position? There are barely 12 good RBs in the National Football League. Probably the same number of good QB's.

[JunkyardDwg]

Reason 1 -

Reason 2 - The leading candidate for the Texans coaching spot Gary Kubiak has also provided favorable reviews for David Carr at the QB position during interviews with the Texans.

"I think, first off, he's got tremendous ability," Kubiak said of Carr. "We all know he's a great kid. . . . He'd be a joy to work with. He's got some weapons around him to help make him better."


This is a tepid endorsement at best ~ "He's a great kid" - please... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/king.gif


Is that not reaching too? Kubiak could be speaking frankly and honestly.



Reason 3 - Reggie Bush is a RB, and Vince Young is a QB. The Texans dont need a QB, and we all know the development of a QB in this league takes some time.


Carr has had 4 years of development and has a 18-46 starting record to show for it ~ we need a QB.

Umm, yeah, Carr is the sole reason for that 18-46 record. Forget the crappy defense and the nonexistent O-line and the coaching staff that was just let go.

[gucci888]

I'm not sold on Reggie's speed or escapability. If he was that good, why wasn't he able to elude the Texas defenders more often? He had an ok game, but didn't look like the "fastest human in the NFL" against a college defense. Shouldn't he have been able to elude a good-but-not-great linebacking crew?

I was saying this before the RoseBowl. If a defense can contain Bush from turning that corner, you can stop him quite easily. Don't get me wrong, Bush still had 170 yards on us, but besides that amazing TD run, he didn't get a whole lot.

Bush could have been the fastest player in college, but trying to cut it outside like he does won't work as well in the NFL. I'm not trying to take anything away from Bush, but Bush never saw good defenses in the Pac10, at least not a defense like Texas.

Cut off the sidelines and make him run between the tackles.

[Cohen]

I was saying this before the RoseBowl. If a defense can contain Bush from turning that corner, you can stop him quite easily. Don't get me wrong, Bush still had 170 yards on us, but besides that amazing TD run, he didn't get a whole lot.
....


Don't give him too much credit for that game. Dude only had 82 rushing.

[YaoMing]

I was saying this before the RoseBowl. If a defense can contain Bush from turning that corner, you can stop him quite easily. Don't get me wrong, Bush still had 170 yards on us, but besides that amazing TD run, he didn't get a whole lot.

Bush could have been the fastest player in college, but trying to cut it outside like he does won't work as well in the NFL. I'm not trying to take anything away from Bush, but Bush never saw good defenses in the Pac10, at least not a defense like Texas.

Cut off the sidelines and make him run between the tackles.


Reggie Bush was not stopped at all by UT. He virtually did whatever he wanted. He cut to the outside, ran down the middle caught passes, and returned the ball. Simply put, he was not worked into the game well enough by the coaches. Let's be real here... UT won that game because in the last 5 minutes the USC coaches blew it... on several occasions. It certainly was not the play calling by Mack Brown. Vince Young got in a groove in the most important moment of his life... and his acclaim is well deserved.

Furthermore, Reggie Bush did everything this year, not just "cut it outside" like you are implying. He did it all.

BTW - Is the Big 12 supposed to have some amazing teams and defenses that I dont know about. If so, please undulge.

[Joshfast]

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4737/young1024x7687fh.jpg

[SamCassell]

Reggie Bush was not stopped at all by UT. He virtually did whatever he wanted. He cut to the outside, ran down the middle caught passes, and returned the ball. Simply put, he was not worked into the game well enough by the coaches. Let's be real here... UT won that game because in the last 5 minutes the USC coaches blew it... on several occasions. It certainly was not the play calling by Mack Brown. Vince Young got in a groove in the most important moment of his life... and his acclaim is well deserved.

Furthermore, Reggie Bush did everything this year, not just "cut it outside" like you are implying. He did it all.

BTW - Is the Big 12 supposed to have some amazing teams and defenses that I dont know about. If so, please undulge.
Were we watching the same game? Because I saw Reggie run 10 times for 54 yards during the first half of the game, a half in which Reggie killed a scoring drive with a ridiculous lateral attempt. During the first half, going to Bush often, the Trojans offense was contained.

USC made a concerted attempt to use Bush as a decoy in the 2nd half, with only 3 carries. The offense responded to the Leinart - White combination better, and scored almost at will in the 2nd half (until that last drive when they couldn't convert on 4th down).

[YaoMing]

Were we watching the same game? Because I saw Reggie run 10 times for 54 yards during the first half of the game, a half in which Reggie killed a scoring drive with a ridiculous lateral attempt. During the first half, going to Bush often, the Trojans offense was contained.

USC made a concerted attempt to use Bush as a decoy in the 2nd half, with only 3 carries. The offense responded to the Leinart - White combination better, and scored almost at will in the 2nd half (until that last drive when they couldn't convert on 4th down).

A 4th Down conversion attempt that saw the heisman trophy winner Reggie Bush on the sidelines?!?!?! Still cant figure that one out.

[oomp]

[.jpg]

That cracked me up.

[Cohen]

Reggie Bush was not stopped at all by UT. He virtually did whatever he wanted. ....

:rolleyes:

Not even close.

[SamCassell]

A 4th Down conversion attempt that saw the heisman trophy winner Reggie Bush on the sidelines?!?!?! Still cant figure that one out.
He should have been on the field imo, but USC went to Lendale on 4th and short all season. Pete Carroll, the guy who knew Reggie's strengths and weaknesses as well as anyone, decided for whatever reason his best chances in that situation didn't include Reggie Bush on the field. That's fairly damning, imo.

[Cohen]

He should have been on the field imo, but USC went to Lendale on 4th and short all season. Pete Carroll, the guy who knew Reggie's strengths and weaknesses as well as anyone, decided for whatever reason his best chances in that situation didn't include Reggie Bush on the field. That's fairly damning, imo.


No doubt.

Carroll wins 34 in a row and then he get's Monday morning quarterbacked to death. :rolleyes:

[YaoMing]

No doubt.

Carroll wins 34 in a row and then he get's Monday morning quarterbacked to death. :rolleyes:

SO I suppose that timeout on the 2 point conversion was a strategic decision as well? People make mistakes. Carrol F'd up on that one.

[Cohen]

SO I suppose that timeout on the 2 point conversion was a strategic decision as well? People make mistakes. Carrol F'd up on that one.


Why not be a little disingenuous.

Your statements were a bit more far-reaching than that one issue: 'Simply put, he was not worked into the game well enough by the coaches. Let's be real here... UT won that game because in the last 5 minutes the USC coaches blew it... on several occasions.'

They tried working him in and it did not work. Ten rushes for 54 yards in the first half and they only had 10 points ... mostly because of a UT fumble. Your Monday-morning quarterbacking doesn't even rate...you would have had SC score about 20 points if they were lucky. Would you have really given up White's touches for Bush's? No way.


And BTW, what failure did the coaches make when trying to stop Vince. Did their failure begin 3 years ago when they spent more time recruiting players for the offense instead of defense? :rolleyes:

[IC2000]

[QUOTE=KingCheetah]Reason 1 - Dan Reeves has recommended to the Houston Texans organization that David Carr is a quality QB that has the tools to be a succesful QB in this league.


This was before Vince set the world on fire winning the National Championship, Rose Bowl MVP, and of course he had not announced he was coming out yet.





This is retarted! What does Vince winning the Rose Bowl have to do with Reeves' assesment of Carr?

[IC2000]

And a 3 time Super Bowl winner who is arguably the best QB in the league and one of the most proven winners ever was drafted in the 6th round. Does that mean great QB's are easy to come by?

nice , i was about to say the same thing

[IC2000]

Were we watching the same game? Because I saw Reggie run 10 times for 54 yards during the first half of the game, a half in which Reggie killed a scoring drive with a ridiculous lateral attempt. During the first half, going to Bush often, the Trojans offense was contained.

USC made a concerted attempt to use Bush as a decoy in the 2nd half, with only 3 carries. The offense responded to the Leinart - White combination better, and scored almost at will in the 2nd half (until that last drive when they couldn't convert on 4th down).

Vince made the same "retarted lateral", his man was ready for it though. It was still a dumb move by bush

5.4 ypc is bad??? I guess

[IC2000]

He should have been on the field imo, but USC went to Lendale on 4th and short all season. Pete Carroll, the guy who knew Reggie's strengths and weaknesses as well as anyone, decided for whatever reason his best chances in that situation didn't include Reggie Bush on the field. That's fairly damning, imo.

he had another 1st round pick to choose from who was dominating UT (did they ever pick michael huff off the ground when he threw him down?), why use bush there?

[Rocket River]

Puhlease!!! If RB's are so easy to come by, then how come every team is not 2 deep at that position? There are barely 12 good RBs in the National Football League. Probably the same number of good QB's.
I think 12 is a underestimation . . but . .

Ok Name be 12 GOOD QBs

Rocket River

[KingCheetah]

This is retarted!

Did you mean: retarded
________________

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/wwvyd.jpg

[Mr. Clutch]

I think 12 is a underestimation . . but . .

Ok Name be 12 GOOD QBs

Rocket River

Manning
Manning (even if you disagree he was good this year, he will be)
McNabb
McNair (hurt but good)
Culpepper
Brees
Plummer (this year)
Brady
Green
Palmer
Hasselbeck
Roethlisberger
Delhomme
Bulger (hurt also)

[DaDakota]

And a 3 time Super Bowl winner who is arguably the best QB in the league and one of the most proven winners ever was drafted in the 6th round. Does that mean great QB's are easy to come by?

Yep, and Joe Montana was drafted in the 3rd round......thus my point about experts not knowing all that much.....

DD

[anon3803]

Vince made the same "retarted lateral", his man was ready for it though. It was still a dumb move by bush

5.4 ypc is bad??? I guess

5.4 was waay below his season average of 8.7, and you know why? Because almost everytime he gets the ball he tries to go outside and turn the corner. He had never faced a defense as fast as Texas, and in the NFL defenses are even faster and you'll see many many more plays like his first carry of the Rose Bowl where he lost 2-3 yards.

[Rocket River]

Manning
Manning (even if you disagree he was good this year, he will be)
McNabb
McNair (hurt but good)
Culpepper
Brees
Plummer (this year)
Brady
Green
Palmer
Hasselbeck
Roethlisberger
Delhomme
Bulger (hurt also)

I guess I did say good
IMO Green, Delhomme, Plummer [this year], Roethlisberger and even Eli
are more game managers . .they simply have to not throw an int
I think Roethlisberger can do more.. . but they don't ask him too . .

and I'm not Sold on Bulger


Let's look at RBs
Alexander, Shaun * MVP
Barber, Tiki
Benson, Cedric [He will be]
Bettis, Jerome
Davis, Domanick
Davis, Stephen
Dillon, Corey
Dunn, Warrick
Faulk, Marshall
Green, Ahman
Holmes, Priest
James, Edgerrin
Johnson, Larry
Johnson, Rudi
Jones, Julius
Jones, Thomas
Lewis, Jamal
Martin, Curtis
McAllister, Deuce
McGahee, Willis
Portis, Clinton
Taylor, Fred
Tomlinson, LaDainian
Westbrook, Brian
Williams, Ricky

and that is at a cursory glance.



Rocket River

[Rocket River]

5.4 was waay below his season average of 8.7, and you know why? Because almost everytime he gets the ball he tries to go outside and turn the corner. He had never faced a defense as fast as Texas, and in the NFL defenses are even faster and you'll see many many more plays like his first carry of the Rose Bowl where he lost 2-3 yards.

I wonder . . If he carried a full load would that Avg have went down further this season.

Rocket River

[Asian Sensation]

I guess I did say good
IMO Green, Delhomme, Plummer [this year], Roethlisberger and even Eli
are more game managers . .they simply have to not throw an int
I think Roethlisberger can do more.. . but they don't ask him too . .

and I'm not Sold on Bulger


Let's look at RBs
Alexander, Shaun * MVP
Barber, Tiki
Benson, Cedric [He will be]
Bettis, Jerome
Davis, Domanick
Davis, Stephen
Dillon, Corey
Dunn, Warrick
Faulk, Marshall
Green, Ahman
Holmes, Priest
James, Edgerrin
Johnson, Larry
Johnson, Rudi
Jones, Julius
Jones, Thomas
Lewis, Jamal
Martin, Curtis
McAllister, Deuce
McGahee, Willis
Portis, Clinton
Taylor, Fred
Tomlinson, LaDainian
Westbrook, Brian
Williams, Ricky

and that is at a cursory glance.



Rocket River


Thats a nice list of running backs but more than half of them are very one-dimensional. They're good at running which is what makes a running back good and they are decent-good blockers but aside from that there's not much else they can do i.e. Jamal Lewis, Clint Portis, Corey Dillon etc. Yet they still managed to have very nice careers thus far. However, take Ron Dayne for example. Hell of a runner in college (Heisman) and was dubbed the next Bus etc etc. Didn't translate because he was one dimensional among other things.

RB's like Alexander, Bettis, Martin, and Faulk will go down as "great" (use the term loosely because true great would be Jim Brown,Sanders etc) players because they've put in there work and do well at more than just 1 thing but I think LaDanian Tomlinson can surpass all these guys. My point is Bush reminds me a lot of LaD Tomlinson in the way he's versatile and able to line up as a receiver if need be and has all the moves as well and more as he can also return kicks and punts. The bottom line is that's a nice list of good running backs which are like you mentioned a dime a dozen but Bush like LT has the potential to be not just good but great.

[Biggienaz786]

Texans needa go Reggie-Reggie in this draft: pick up Reggie Bush 1st, and Reggie McNeal later.

[leroy420]

Texans needa go Reggie-Reggie in this draft: pick up Reggie Bush 1st, and Reggie McNeal later.

Reggie McNeal might make a good WR at some point. He'd be worth a late 2nd day pick.

[Rocket River]

Thats a nice list of running backs but more than half of them are very one-dimensional. They're good at running which is what makes a running back good and they are decent-good blockers but aside from that there's not much else they can do i.e. Jamal Lewis, Clint Portis, Corey Dillon etc. Yet they still managed to have very nice careers thus far. However, take Ron Dayne for example. Hell of a runner in college (Heisman) and was dubbed the next Bus etc etc. Didn't translate because he was one dimensional among other things.

RB's like Alexander, Bettis, Martin, and Faulk will go down as "great" (use the term loosely because true great would be Jim Brown,Sanders etc) players because they've put in there work and do well at more than just 1 thing but I think LaDanian Tomlinson can surpass all these guys. My point is Bush reminds me a lot of LaD Tomlinson in the way he's versatile and able to line up as a receiver if need be and has all the moves as well and more as he can also return kicks and punts. The bottom line is that's a nice list of good running backs which are like you mentioned a dime a dozen but Bush like LT has the potential to be not just good but great.

Manning
Manning (even if you disagree he was good this year, he will be)
McNabb
McNair (hurt but good)
Culpepper
Brees
Plummer (this year)
Brady
Green
Palmer
Hasselbeck
Roethlisberger
Delhomme
Bulger (hurt also)

Look at the list of QBs presented

Who on that list can be Great Manning, McNair, Brady?
I hate New England. . but it is because they get too much praise
but
Brady shows leadership that Worries me as a Colts fan.
No other QB on that list would worry me so
[hell peyton has not shown that leadership . . . nor Marino]

Vince Young has that kind of Leadership
I made the comment that Plummer was Dilfer 2.0 . . meaning better
than dilfer. . but being asked to do similar things

Young can be great
Bush can be great

To dogg one to prop up the other is useless

Two things worry me about Bush
1. size and durability
2. people like to talk about his all purpose yards. . well a 1/3rd of his game will be gone because we have a all pro returner

Both He and Young will have to adjust to the SPEED of the NFL game
Young will be slower because he will have MORE RESPONSIBILITIES


Rocket River

[VesceySux]

Texans needa go Reggie-Reggie in this draft: pick up Reggie Bush 1st, and Reggie McNeal later.

Considering Chaz Casserole's ridiculous streak of drafting a QB (or 2) every year, I'm actually expecting this to happen. Yes, even if we were to draft VY. ("BPA," my ass.)

[halfbreed]

Texans needa go Reggie-Reggie in this draft: pick up Reggie Bush 1st, and Reggie McNeal later.

Reggie McNeal? Wow...are you serious?

[IC2000]

Reggie McNeal? Wow...are you serious?

He was rated higher than Vince about a year ago. He was poorly coached, they did not let him play his game.

[Biggienaz786]

Reggie McNeal? Wow...are you serious?

yes i am. it's one thing to be able to look at a team's wins and losses, and another thing to actually watch their games.

if you'd watched rmcneal's games the last 4 years, then maybe you'd know why i'm serious. some of us follow teams besides UT.

[solid]

McNeal is an incredible talent. At the high school level he was a legend at Lufkin leading them to 5A State Championship. Sprinter speed-NFL arm. Oft injured and IMO, not well managed at A&M. Will star in the pros.

[percicles]

Ally Mcneal no tiene huevos!!!!

[halfbreed]

yes i am. it's one thing to be able to look at a team's wins and losses, and another thing to actually watch their games.

if you'd watched rmcneal's games the last 4 years, then maybe you'd know why i'm serious. some of us follow teams besides UT.

Well, nice try but as I host a 2 hour long sports radio show weekly, I also follow other games.

Reggie McNeal will not be a star in the pros. I'm more sure of that than I am that VY will be a star.

He was rated higher than Vince about a year ago. He was poorly coached, they did not let him play his game.

Brian Bosworth was once rated as the top prospect. How did that turn out again? Don't put too much stock in ratings. Tom Brady was a 3rd round draft pick. Big Ben wasn't the first QB taken. Why? Not as highly rated. He seems to be doing fine to me.

[thirdcoastTXpulse]

Brian Bosworth was once rated as the top prospect. How did that turn out again? Don't put too much stock in ratings. Tom Brady was a 3rd round draft pick. Big Ben wasn't the first QB taken. Why? Not as highly rated. He seems to be doing fine to me.

Actually, Mr. Brady was 199th overall in the 6th round, just for clarification. I do agree with you about McNeal though, he may be like QC in Big D if he was lucky...on the field of course.

[the futants]

Bush turned pro after assurance of No. 1 pick
ESPN.com news services
click this

Reggie Bush has long been assumed the top pick in the NFL draft, but after Vince Young's performance in the Rose Bowl, the Trojans wanted some assurance before the Heisman Trophy winner agreed to forgo his senior season.

Reggie Bush
Bush

USC sources told ESPN's Chris Mortensen that coach Pete Carroll gave his blessing for Bush to turn pro only after being assured by Texans owner Bob McNair that the running back would be the No. 1 pick in the draft.

Young, a Texas native, led his Longhorns to a victory over the favored Trojans in the national championship and ignited a public frenzy demanding Houston select the quarterback instead of Bush.

However, the Texans appear to be sticking with their initial plan of drafting the running back -- a preference of the top candidate to become their head coach.

A Broncos source told Mortensen that Gary Kubiak, Denver's offensive coordinator and the favorite for the Texans' head coaching post, believes current Houston quarterback David Carr can flourish with a new offense headlined by Bush and wide receiver Andre Johnson.

Kubiak, a Houston native, is widely considered the likely successor to Dom Capers, who was fired as Texans coach on Jan. 2, one day after finishing a 2-14 season with a loss at San Francisco.

However, under NFL tampering rules, the Texans cannot comment about or finalize any moves involving Kubiak until the Broncos' season is over. Denver advanced to the AFC Championship Game with a 27-13 win over the New England Patriots on Saturday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2293458

[KaiSeR SoZe]

NOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOO!



















NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[YaoMing]

NOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOO!



















NOOOOOOOOOOOO!


Is this supposed to be a surprise? This could be seen from a mile away.

[gucci888]

Is this supposed to be a surprise? This could be seen from a mile away.

YaoMing- Have you heard Casserly or McNair say they're gonna draft Bush straight from their mouth? NOTHING is set in stone, nothing.

[LongTimeFan]

I think it's funny that everyone says Carr's not the problem. Well neither is DD. Carr's not a problem, but VY is a future star at the most important position in football.

[YaoMing]

YaoMing- Have you heard Casserly or McNair say they're gonna draft Bush straight from their mouth? NOTHING is set in stone, nothing.

Gooch - This draft pick is as set in stone as Reggie Bush's heisman trophy!

[YaoMing]

I think it's funny that everyone says Carr's not the problem. Well neither is DD. Carr's not a problem, but VY is a future star at the most important position in football.


QB is a much tougher position than RB. What makes you so confident that he will be so good at the next level? Please I would love to hear.

[gucci888]

Gooch - This draft pick is as set in stone as Reggie Bush's heisman trophy!

Just like the Rose Bowl right?

Funny you mention that: I just bought a shirt that says on the Front: Heisman!? Back: We don't need no stink'n Heisman. I thought it was pretty funny.

[LongTimeFan]

QB is a much tougher position than RB. What makes you so confident that he will be so good at the next level? Please I would love to hear.

Well it's quite easy. I look at how he tore apart college teams, and excelled in the biggest game of his life. That leads me to think he's going to be pretty damn good -- the same logic you're using for Bush, actually.

[mogrod]

You know, people keep bringing up the marketing side of this pick and who would bring more fans. Well, I look at it as actually Young vs. Carr in this regard. Let's look at the numbers...

Which is the biggest total of people?

UT fans

or

Houston women.
:D

[Rocket River]

Isn't such assurrances etc. . considered tampering :confused:

Rocket River

[YaoMing]

I think the UT fans are scared that if the Texans take Reggie Bush, it will put an asterick next to thier National Championship this year. People will look back on the past and see how the hometowners went with Reggie thus validating his superiority. The Trojans were better and Reggie was better.

It does look quite bad from a UT fans standpoint!

UT 2006 National Championship! *

* Even the Texans selected Reggie Bush

[gucci888]

I think the UT fans are scared that if the Texans take Reggie Bush, it will put an asterick next to thier National Championship this year. People will look back on the past and see how the hometowners went with Reggie thus validating his superiority. The Trojans were better and Reggie was better.

It does look quite bad from a UT fans standpoint!

UT 2006 National Championship! *

* Even the Texans selected Reggie Bush

Bitter USC fan (or UT-Hater) trying to make himself feel a little better. :cool:

[KaiSeR SoZe]

I think the UT fans are scared that if the Texans take Reggie Bush, it will put an asterick next to thier National Championship this year. People will look back on the past and see how the hometowners went with Reggie thus validating his superiority. The Trojans were better and Reggie was better.

It does look quite bad from a UT fans standpoint!

UT 2006 National Championship! *

* Even the Texans selected Reggie Bush
thats the stupidiest thing i've ever heard..

gucci...where did u get the t-shirt?

[Agent27]

Well it's quite easy. I look at how he tore apart college teams, and excelled in the biggest game of his life.

You mean like every other player who's been drafted high and been a bust?

[bigtexxx]

Can anybody tell me whose senior year stats these are?

4839 yds 62.6% completion 46 TD
300 yds in 11 out of 14 games
400 yds in 3 games, including a 432-yard, six-touchdown performance in two-and-a-half quarters

[Agent27]

Can anybody tell me whose senior year stats these are?

4839 yds 62.6% completion 46 TD
300 yds in 11 out of 14 games
400 yds in 3 games, including a 432-yard, six-touchdown performance in two-and-a-half quarters

I do believe they were David Carr's stats.

[askball]

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15932040&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6

The Houston Texans blew it the last time they had a tough decision to make. Their choice of quarterback David Carr over defensive end Julius Peppers is largely why they’ve earned the first overall pick in the draft for the second time since tabbing Carr four years ago.


With Heisman Trophy winning running back Reggie Bush and the best player in college football, quarterback Vince Young on their radar, the Texans can’t go wrong in the upcoming lottery, right?

Advertisement


Uh, yes they can. At least that’s their plan.

The Texans want to hang on to Carr, who has fooled a lot of scouts but darn few NFL teams. If they pass on Young to choose Bush because they think Carr is legit, they can expect to be vying for the first overall pick and searching for another new head coach in the next three or four years.

Bush undoubtedly is a fine player. He’s touted as a threat to score every time he touches the ball, although that wasn’t the case in the Rose Bowl. On SC’s most significant play, he was on the sideline watching teammate Lendale White’s unsuccessful fourth-and-one run. The Longhorns took him out of the game.

Young also has incredible athletic ability. Moreover, he has a unique blend of leadership and will to win. The Trojans knew they only had to stop Young half of the time in order to win the Rose Bowl and the national championship. That they were unable to do so tells you a lot about Young.

Young can keep plays alive all day with his scrambling ability. His arm is more than adequate. He’s got aura.

The Texans would be better off drafting Bush’s teammate Matt Leinart, the quarterback that won the Heisman two years ago, than choosing Bush and teaming him with Carr. Don’t expect too much out of Texans general manager Charley Casserly. He drafted Carr instead of Peppers, the perennial Panthers Pro Bowler that came off the board right after Carr.

[gucci888]

thats the stupidiest thing i've ever heard..

gucci...where did u get the t-shirt?

Co-Op. It's a grey shirt w/ orange trim on the neck and sleeves.

Can anybody tell me whose senior year stats these are?

4839 yds 62.6% completion 46 TD
300 yds in 11 out of 14 games
400 yds in 3 games, including a 432-yard, six-touchdown performance in two-and-a-half quarters

Yep, those are very impressive stats. But let's not forget that the WAC is one of the weakest conferences in college football. They also lost 3 games to Boise St, Hawaii, and Michigan State, not exactly elite competition.

Here's the real question: Who's 3 years stats are these? And where is he now? Hint: Same conference. Passing stats don't mean a whole lot in the WAC where defense isn't part of a gameplan.

2002: 4474 yds 56% completion 25 TD
2003: 4199 yds 59% completion 29 TD
2004: 4258 yds 60% completion 38 TD

[VesceySux]

I think the UT fans are scared that if the Texans take Reggie Bush, it will put an asterick next to thier National Championship this year. People will look back on the past and see how the hometowners went with Reggie thus validating his superiority. The Trojans were better and Reggie was better.

It does look quite bad from a UT fans standpoint!

UT 2006 National Championship! *

* Even the Texans selected Reggie Bush

Wow. Just... wow. Your post is so incredibly and thoroughly childish and stupid, it has the potential to invalidate every one of your posts before it. I mean, we're talking like "Gigli career suicide" bad here. "Ignore list" bad even.

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

[VesceySux]

Isn't such assurrances etc. . considered tampering :confused:

Rocket River

Excellent point, RR. Could the Texans face heavy fines or penalties if true?

[Mr. Clutch]

Excellent point, RR. Could the Texans face heavy fines or penalties if true?

I think tampering rules apply to potential free agents or coaches who are still in the playoffs, not guys who might come out of college. It is usually one team complaining about another team talking to their players or coaches.

But nice try Vince fans.

[YaoMing]

Wow. Just... wow. Your post is so incredibly and thoroughly childish and stupid, it has the potential to invalidate every one of your posts before it. I mean, we're talking like "Gigli career suicide" bad here. "Ignore list" bad even.

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


You can take my humor in anyway you like, but either way... Reggie Bush will be the next Texan! Im just having fun with all the UT fans who are the most bitter out of this whole thing. How can I be bitter if they are going with the guy that I would choose? :confused:

[gucci888]

I think tampering rules apply to potential free agents or coaches who are still in the playoffs, not guys who might come out of college. It is usually one team complaining about another team talking to their players or coaches.

But nice try Vince fans.

Teams aren't allowed to talk about underclassman that are deciding to come out. That's why Casserly was not able to discuss Bush w/ 610 a couple weeks back.

Nice try though.

[Agent27]

Excellent point, RR. Could the Texans face heavy fines or penalties if true?

Are the Horn fans so Pro-Vince/Anti-Bush that they want the Texans penalized for talking to Bush?

[Agent27]

Teams aren't allowed to talk about underclassman that are deciding to come out. That's why Casserly was not able to discuss Bush w/ 610 a couple weeks back.

Nice try though.

Yes, you can't talk ABOUT them. That doesn't mean you can't talk TO them.

[Mr. Clutch]

Teams aren't allowed to talk about underclassman that are deciding to come out. That's why Casserly was not able to discuss Bush w/ 610 a couple weeks back.

Nice try though.

Where are the Texans talking about underclassmen? They talked to Bush himself and Carrol.

Nice try # dos.

[gucci888]

You can take my humor in anyway you like, but either way... Reggie Bush will be the next Texan! Im just having fun with all the UT fans who are the most bitter out of this whole thing. How can I be bitter if they are going with the guy that I would choose? :confused:

Actually, it just sounds like you're the one that's bitter, along w/ the other UT-haters trying to get anything they can get against us. If you like Bush, that's fine, but it just sounds like you want Bush because you don't like UT. But I guess none of this really matters. :p

[Mr. Clutch]

Are the Horn fans so Pro-Vince/Anti-Bush that they want the Texans penalized for talking to Bush?

Yes. Remember they are going to be fans of whatever team Vince goes to because they won't ever forgive the Texans for passing him up.

[pgabriel]

Are the Horn fans so Pro-Vince/Anti-Bush that they want the Texans penalized for talking to Bush?


Rocket River graduated from Texas A&M.

[gucci888]

Where are the Texans talking about underclassmen? They talked to Bush himself and Carrol.

Nice try # dos.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=107336&z=1

It says in this thread that McNair assured Bush that IF he came out, he would be the #1 pick, therefore, the Texans were discussing Bush before he declared.

Agent- Is that true? I don't have enough time right now to check out the official rules, but I don't think you'd be allowed to talk TO an underclassman if you can't even talk ABOUT them. But I could be wrong.

[percicles]

Guys this ESPN!!!! After all the switching from Bush to Young back to Bush rumors that they've reported how can anyone living here believe them. Just Listen to what McClain has 2 say. I have more faith in his inside scoops then NY/LA based ESPN.


On A side note: Owners Can't give assurances to underclassmen. I remeber Mack brown once saying that before a JR thinks about declaring he talks with his NFL connections (ie scouts) to gauge a players worth. But owners giving promises are if not a blatant affront to NFL policy than they're very borderline. I don't think McNair is stupid enough 2 put himself anywhere near such a position.

[Bassfly]

A Broncos source told Mortensen that Gary Kubiak, Denver's offensive coordinator and the favorite for the Texans' head coaching post, believes current Houston quarterback David Carr can flourish with a new offense headlined by Bush and wide receiver Andre Johnson.

lost in all of the madness is this quote. lets face it: we're all just a bunch of idiots with an internet connection and an opinion. none of us know how to scheme and develop a nfl offense. if our new coach thinks we can flourish with bush then we have to roll with it. im excited to see what kubiak can do with carr-bush-johnson.

this is coming from a UT student a HUGE VY fan.