[Official] Bush or Someone else-- Young out of running

[DonnyMost]

I'm anxious to hear the reports from UT's proday today.

I think you can rest assured that the haters will hate, and the jock-sniffers will sniff more jock.

World keeps on spinnin'..

[Raven Lunatic]

Texans to take a closer look at Young

By JOHN McCLAIN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

McNair and his righthand man, son Cal, will lead the Houston contingent of scouts and coaches, including general manager Charley Casserly, coach Gary Kubiak, offensive coordinator and quarterbacks coach Troy Calhoun and assistant head coach/offense Mike Sherman.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3739988.html

Interesting...so does this mean that Dan Reeves is out of the picture now as a consultant?

[swilkins]

Interesting...so does this mean that Dan Reeves is out of the picture now as a consultant?

He's a silent consultant.

[Dubious]

I think you can rest assured that the haters will hate, and the jock-sniffers will sniff more jock.
World keeps on spinnin'..

I think the UT Athletic Department has changed fabric softeners. This new one is so fresh and Springy.

[Rileydog]

Looking at our talent situation, the 97 and 98 Broncos, and turning off my VY man love . . . .

(I still want to draft VY. Reasonable minds can differ on the future success of Bush and Young, and all things being equal, I'd just rather be able to watch Young develop.)

If we stay at No. 1, and know that we're not taking VY, we need to draft Bush. Not Furguson, Not Williams. We need to establish an outstanding running game as the foundation of our team.

Premise and Assumptions
1. New Coaching staff knows what it's doing (if not, all bets are off).
2. We are TWO drafts away from accumulating enough talent to be relevant in the playoff picture.
3. Kubiak's plan is heavily impacted by the success of the 97 and 98 Broncos.

Analysis of the 97 and 98 Broncos
1. 97 and 98 Broncos were driven by flawless execution of the zone blocking scheme and Terrell Davis' relentless running.
2. They also featured: a mature John Elway that managed the game flawlessly and made plays when needed; an impossible matchup with Shannon Sharpe at TE; a legit No 1 WR with Rod Smith; a tough No. 2 in Ed McCaffrey
3. The defense was tough with Trevor Pryce, Romanowski, and a pair of rugged safeties. But the star power was in the offense, at least IMO.

Where are the Texans lacking from a pure talent perspective, and what should our plan be?

1. Our running game (setting aside special teams) was the best part of a lousy team.
2. O-Line: This is where we can most arguably be "coached up", and hopefully don't need a MASSIVE talent injection. Over the course of TWO YEARS, the OLine can be coached to play better and we can improve the talent level in a gradual, steady way. We don't need a big bang in the draft. Thus, I wouldn't spend the pick on Dbrick

2. Running game: Goal No 1 is to gake our running game to the next level, as fast as possible. DD is not durable or explosive enough to do that. If, if, our Oline can be improved as noted above, we still need more at running back. Personally, I think a Lendale White with a 10-15 pick is a better value than Bush, but Bush would a valuable weapon. If Bush and Davis split carries for 30-35 carries/game, there's a strong likelihood that we would have a top 5 to 10 running attack, just with a coached up line. With addiitonal talent on the line, we need to be a top 5 running attack. That's why we will take Bush No. 1.

3. Even with Bush, we're way short on offensive playmakers. We have our TD (arguably), we have our Rod Smith. We're nowhere close to having a Sharpe or McCaffrey. Putzier is a gradual upgrade, but not the answer. We need an every down TE. I'd like to get a solid, but unspectacular No. 2 WR. I'd like to see us take BPA at TE, OLine or WR with the 2nd rnd and 3rd rnd picks. The talent shortfall really highlights the need for us to hit on each of our first 4 picks.

4. As for Mario Williams at No 1, I think he could make a big immediate impact, but we have "potential" in Peek, Babin and Weaver (and maybe TJ and Robaire) for a pass rush in a 4-3. We don't have such "potential" for a dominant running game with our current roster. Nor do we have such potential at TE, WR2, CB or MLB, at least not IMO. This year, we could address MLB and CB with one of our 3rd round picks and in day 2. NEXT YEAR, we will know whether Peek, Babin and TJ can play in a 4-3. We can then address the Defense accordingly. As good as a prospect Williams is, it doesn't make sense to take him now.

5. As for Vince Young, I really wish we could take him and would be happy if we did. But we need to look at Carr this way. He was "on track" after year 3. He is far from blameless for year 4, but he is pretty much the same guy that we had at the end of year 3. He's another guy that I think can be "coached up". He's not a dynamic leader or playmaker, but I think he could be developed into a competent QB that can manage a game and make the occasional play.

There are a huge number of variables that will dictate our success in the future:

Can we coach up Carr and the O Line?
Will Bush live up to the hype?
Can Peek,Babin, TJ, Weaver play in a 4-3 and generate a pass rush?
Can we draft an every down TE?
Can we draft a CB opposite Dunta?

We have 2 drafts to answer these questions. This draft is best spent on addressing areas where we clearly have little or no "potential"/talent. It just so happens that Reggie Bush potentially fills one of the most important areas.

(ignore this entire post if Reggie bush does not run in the mid/low 4.3's.)

[rrj_gamz]

(ignore this entire post if Reggie bush does not run in the mid/low 4.3's.)

Agreed...I would love to have VY, but it just isn't going to happen...

[MadMax]

Riley --

by the end of year 3, there were LOTS of people questioning Carr. he had a great 1st half of that season and hasn't approached playing that well since then with any consistency. by the end of year 3 we were losing to the Browns and Carr was being booed at home games.

[rhester]

Looking at our talent situation, the 97 and 98 Broncos, and turning off my VY man love . . . .

(I still want to draft VY. Reasonable minds can differ on the future success of Bush and Young, and all things being equal, I'd just rather be able to watch Young develop.)

If we stay at No. 1, and know that we're not taking VY, we need to draft Bush. Not Furguson, Not Williams. We need to establish an outstanding running game as the foundation of our team.

Premise and Assumptions
1. New Coaching staff knows what it's doing (if not, all bets are off).
2. We are TWO drafts away from accumulating enough talent to be relevant in the playoff picture.
3. Kubiak's plan is heavily impacted by the success of the 97 and 98 Broncos.

Analysis of the 97 and 98 Broncos
1. 97 and 98 Broncos were driven by flawless execution of the zone blocking scheme and Terrell Davis' relentless running.
2. They also featured: a mature John Elway that managed the game flawlessly and made plays when needed; an impossible matchup with Shannon Sharpe at TE; a legit No 1 WR with Rod Smith; a tough No. 2 in Ed McCaffrey
3. The defense was tough with Trevor Pryce, Romanowski, and a pair of rugged safeties. But the star power was in the offense, at least IMO.

Where are the Texans lacking from a pure talent perspective, and what should our plan be?

1. Our running game (setting aside special teams) was the best part of a lousy team.
2. O-Line: This is where we can most arguably be "coached up", and hopefully don't need a MASSIVE talent injection. Over the course of TWO YEARS, the OLine can be coached to play better and we can improve the talent level in a gradual, steady way. We don't need a big bang in the draft. Thus, I wouldn't spend the pick on Dbrick

2. Running game: Goal No 1 is to gake our running game to the next level, as fast as possible. DD is not durable or explosive enough to do that. If, if, our Oline can be improved as noted above, we still need more at running back. Personally, I think a Lendale White with a 10-15 pick is a better value than Bush, but Bush would a valuable weapon. If Bush and Davis split carries for 30-35 carries/game, there's a strong likelihood that we would have a top 5 to 10 running attack, just with a coached up line. With addiitonal talent on the line, we need to be a top 5 running attack. That's why we will take Bush No. 1.

3. Even with Bush, we're way short on offensive playmakers. We have our TD (arguably), we have our Rod Smith. We're nowhere close to having a Sharpe or McCaffrey. Putzier is a gradual upgrade, but not the answer. We need an every down TE. I'd like to get a solid, but unspectacular No. 2 WR. I'd like to see us take BPA at TE, OLine or WR with the 2nd rnd and 3rd rnd picks. The talent shortfall really highlights the need for us to hit on each of our first 4 picks.

4. As for Mario Williams at No 1, I think he could make a big immediate impact, but we have "potential" in Peek, Babin and Weaver (and maybe TJ and Robaire) for a pass rush in a 4-3. We don't have such "potential" for a dominant running game with our current roster. Nor do we have such potential at TE, WR2, CB or MLB, at least not IMO. This year, we could address MLB and CB with one of our 3rd round picks and in day 2. NEXT YEAR, we will know whether Peek, Babin and TJ can play in a 4-3. We can then address the Defense accordingly. As good as a prospect Williams is, it doesn't make sense to take him now.

5. As for Vince Young, I really wish we could take him and would be happy if we did. But we need to look at Carr this way. He was "on track" after year 3. He is far from blameless for year 4, but he is pretty much the same guy that we had at the end of year 3. He's another guy that I think can be "coached up". He's not a dynamic leader or playmaker, but I think he could be developed into a competent QB that can manage a game and make the occasional play.

There are a huge number of variables that will dictate our success in the future:

Can we coach up Carr and the O Line?
Will Bush live up to the hype?
Can Peek,Babin, TJ, Weaver play in a 4-3 and generate a pass rush?
Can we draft an every down TE?
Can we draft a CB opposite Dunta?

We have 2 drafts to answer these questions. This draft is best spent on addressing areas where we clearly have little or no "potential"/talent. It just so happens that Reggie Bush potentially fills one of the most important areas.

(ignore this entire post if Reggie bush does not run in the mid/low 4.3's.)

First Carr is no where near Elway (I think VY is closer to Elway than Carr is right now- and neither are close)- that takes care of the 97-98 Broncos

Carr can be coached up, but has yet to show the leadership to make clutch or impact plays from his position- he is a big unknown.

Bush and Davis are redundent. Bush may live up to the hype- if he does Davis won't see the field. If Davis gets more than 2-4 carries a game we made a mistake with the #1 overall pick. If Davis is going to continue to be a factor at running back then Bush isn't what he should be and they MUST trade the pick.

Peek has the tools to be an impact rusher but he has disappointed so far. Maybe it is coaching and he will break out this season. We need a double digit sack guy.

Forget Babin and Weaver thinking they will be better than Mario Williams is a mistake.

Desperately need a CB opposite Duanta- agree totally

We need a very good run stopper- hopefully at MLB

Carr can succeed with a very good defense. He is servicable.

AJ must be utilized- he has greatness

We need much better guard play and a right tackle. We are short at least 2 quality linemen right now. Wade and friends are pretty weak. Pitts is the best and could become a very good player.

Just because we are entering our 5th season we must all realize we must rebuild the roster (Casserly has ruined it)

I thought the Texans would win 4-5 games last season. I was surprised they won 7 the year before- I felt it was a fluke with their personnel- but the secondary played exeptionally well and won several games for them.

Depending on their draft I have them winning 4-7 games this season. A great draft will get them some wins. A poor draft will leave them about the same. They should have won 4 games last season.

We must rebuild this roster. It takes time to build a Super Bowl caliber team.
We have not been on track since draft #1.

Time to get this ship righted.

[Rileydog]

I never said Carr is near elway. And that doesn't take care of those Broncos. If you watched that team carefully, Terrell Davis was the cog that moved that machine.

I agree that Carr hasn't shown leadership. I think there have been some flashes of playmaking. My biggest question is Carr's heart, desir and leadership. It stinks to say, but we don't need a nice guy, family man. We need someone who lives and breathes football, who feels JVG level depression when we lose, and is dying to be the best. Carr isn't that guy. You don't have to have the perfect QB to win, but you need a certain amount of these qualities to do so. I'm not sure if Carr does. But we'll find out one way or the other.

Bush and Davis are not redundent because Davis can't carry the load without getting hurt. If you split 30-35 carries between the two, each should produce with tremendous efficiency. Now, you can argue that such an arrangement would be a poor allocation of money, but don't say that they're redundant. Bottom Line - DD has performed about as much as he will be able to. Remember, we had a middle of the pack rushing attack. DD can do a little better, but much of his upside is capped by durability. Even if Bush lives up to the hype, he's going to carry the entire load. he'll carry the ball 12-15 times, and touch it another 5 more.

Nobody is thinking that Babin and Weaver will be better than Williams. You're totally missing the point. I'm talking about allocation of draft picks to improve our total talent level and production. The idea is that Babin, Peek and Weaver have the potential to generate a pass rush. Maybe you disagree. I don't know. But we don't know where that will go yet in a 4-3. My premise is that the Bush's incremental boost to our rushing attack is greater than Williams' to our front 4 because we have potential on our front 4.

========

I haven't followed everyone's position closely. I'm curious then, what would you do? Draft VY, dump Carr for a 2nd round pick, pick Mario Williams No 1 (assuming we can't trade down and still get him), Use 2 2nd rounders and 2 3rd rounders to draft BPA at TE, OLine, CB, WR and MLB, hope VY can play in yr 2 and we compete in yr 3?

(all of which, I'd love).

[SamCassell]

No idea why people think a talentless and horrible offensive line can be coached to greatness, or even mediocrity. They flat out get beaten most plays, because they suck individually and as a unit.

[swilkins]

I never said Carr is near elway. And that doesn't take care of those Broncos. If you watched that team carefully, Terrell Davis was the cog that moved that machine.

I agree that Carr hasn't shown leadership. I think there have been some flashes of playmaking. My biggest question is Carr's heart, desir and leadership. It stinks to say, but we don't need a nice guy, family man. We need someone who lives and breathes football, who feels JVG level depression when we lose, and is dying to be the best. Carr isn't that guy. You don't have to have the perfect QB to win, but you need a certain amount of these qualities to do so. I'm not sure if Carr does. But we'll find out one way or the other.

Bush and Davis are not redundent because Davis can't carry the load without getting hurt. If you split 30-35 carries between the two, each should produce with tremendous efficiency. Now, you can argue that such an arrangement would be a poor allocation of money, but don't say that they're redundant. Bottom Line - DD has performed about as much as he will be able to. Remember, we had a middle of the pack rushing attack. DD can do a little better, but much of his upside is capped by durability. Even if Bush lives up to the hype, he's going to carry the entire load. he'll carry the ball 12-15 times, and touch it another 5 more.

Nobody is thinking that Babin and Weaver will be better than Williams. You're totally missing the point. I'm talking about allocation of draft picks to improve our total talent level and production. The idea is that Babin, Peek and Weaver have the potential to generate a pass rush. Maybe you disagree. I don't know. But we don't know where that will go yet in a 4-3. My premise is that the Bush's incremental boost to our rushing attack is greater than Williams' to our front 4 because we have potential on our front 4.

========

I haven't followed everyone's position closely. I'm curious then, what would you do? Draft VY, dump Carr for a 2nd round pick, pick Mario Williams No 1 (assuming we can't trade down and still get him), Use 2 2nd rounders and 2 3rd rounders to draft BPA at TE, OLine, CB, WR and MLB, hope VY can play in yr 2 and we compete in yr 3?

(all of which, I'd love).

I think you make a very good case. I don't believe that RB will carry the ball 20-25 times. I don't think it is necessary, but can see DD making up for most of the rest for a total rushing of 30-35.

I believe that having a good 1-2 combo at RB can prolong DD's and RB's career.

I also believe that VM could be a better back than DD, but the jury is still out.

Overall though, many have lost faith in Carr. He was to blame for some of it, but not most of it. I believe Carr can be a much better QB. It has been proven that you don't need an Pro Bowl QB to win it all. He does need to play consistent though and understand his role.

[percicles]

I agree that Carr hasn't shown leadership. I think there have been some flashes of playmaking. My biggest question is Carr's heart, desir and leadership. It stinks to say, but we don't need a nice guy, family man. We need someone who lives and breathes football, who feels JVG level depression when we lose, and is dying to be the best. Carr isn't that guy. You don't have to have the perfect QB to win, but you need a certain amount of these qualities to do so. I'm not sure if Carr does. But we'll find out one way or the other.

Doesn't it also speak volumes of Carr's character that he has/had his daddy at every practice.

Honestly, how many of you have needed your daddy nearbye during your professional careers?

[swilkins]

Doesn't it also speak volumes of Carr's character that he has/had his daddy at every practice.

Honestly, how many of you have needed your daddy nearbye during your professional careers?

I think this was a stupid response. Who cares if his dad was there.

[MadMax]

What I'm really having a hard time grasping is the point that swilkins just posted. Not pick on you, swilkins.

But it gets said, "You don't need a Pro Bowl QB to win it all."

Of course you don't. But it certainly doesn't hurt!!

The Patriots showed, during their first Super Bowl run, that you don't need a great running back either.

The Patriots showed having a Pro Bowl QB can really, really help out! :)

To me this statement is silly...because it means you pass up talent because some other team found a way to win with a lesser player at that position.

[MadMax]

Doesn't it also speak volumes of Carr's character that he has/had his daddy at every practice.

Honestly, how many of you have needed your daddy nearbye during your professional careers?

it might be that Carr's dad just wants to be there. if my son were playing pro football, i might want to watch a bit too!

[swilkins]

What I'm really having a hard time grasping is the point that swilkins just posted. Not pick on you, swilkins.

But it gets said, "You don't need a Pro Bowl QB to win it all."

Of course you don't. But it certainly doesn't hurt!!

The Patriots showed, during their first Super Bowl run, that you don't need a great running back either.

The Patriots showed having a Pro Bowl QB can really, really help out! :)

To me this statement is silly...because it means you pass up talent because some other team found a way to win with a lesser player at that position.

Silly? The Patriots are a complete team. Their coaching/development is top notch.

If you prefer VY over RB, that's fine. RB is also a rare talent. If you think that VY is more talented than RB, that's fine too.

What is so silly about my response?

[rhester]

Do you know what the fans of 2-14 football teams do- over estimate their team.

[percicles]

it might be that Carr's dad just wants to be there. if my son were playing pro football, i might want to watch a bit too!

yeah, but one thing is a father coming to watch his son as a spectator. Another is the son using the father as an emotional crutch. At some point you have to cut the cord.

[MadMax]

Silly? The Patriots are a complete team. Their coaching/development is top notch.

If you prefer VY over RB, that's fine. RB is also a rare talent. If you think that VY is more talented than RB, that's fine too.

What is so silly about my response?

i'm saying you could say this about nearly any position. some team has won a super bowl at some point with an average player playing at any position on the field. the patriots won their first super bowl with an average running back behind a great run scheme. the ravens won with a guy who might play better than you and me at QB.

my point is, you don't pass up talent at any position because someone once won a super bowl with a lesser player at that position.

[MadMax]

yeah, but one thing is a father coming to watch his son as a spectator. Another is the son using the father as an emotional crutch. At some point you have to cut the cord.

i just don't know that he is an emotional crutch.

[swilkins]

...

my point is, you don't pass up talent at any position because someone once won a super bowl with a lesser player at that position.

It has always been my opinion and still is that: Carr+Bush+Davis+Johnson+Mathis > VY+Davis+Johnson+Mathis.

I think you have more scoring options. I also would rather an immediate impact than a later impact.

Now if they was to trade the pick for an extra 2nd and 3rd round pick with a team that was between 5-7 and VY was still available, I would be ok with that, seeing that we could pick possibly pick White with our 1st pick in the second round and still add talent to the line and MLB or CB. This is not very realistic though and they extended Carr's contract whcih makes it even more unlikely.

[MadMax]

It has always been my opinion and still is that: Carr+Bush+Davis+Johnson+Mathis > VY+Davis+Johnson+Mathis.

I think you have more scoring options. I also would rather an immediate impact than a later impact.

Now if they was to trade the pick for an extra 2nd and 3rd round pick with a team that was between 5-7 and VY was still available, I would be ok with that, seeing that we could pick possibly pick White with our 1st pick in the second round and still add talent to the line and MLB or CB. This is not very realistic though and they extended Carr's contract whcih makes it even more unlikely.

i don't have a problem at all with that analysis. i'm not arguing with that, really. well...i am...but not in this conversation, anyway. i'm just addressing the argument that goes, "teams have won without a Pro Bowl QB, so we don't need one." in my view, you don't pass up on a pro bowl QB, assuming you don't already have one, because some teams got by without it.

[KAS13]

yeah, but one thing is a father coming to watch his son as a spectator. Another is the son using the father as an emotional crutch. At some point you have to cut the cord.


What a ridiculous statement. You have no first hand knowledge of carr's personal relationship with his dad. How in the world would you know if his dad was an "emotional crutch?" Carr is a very devout family man and I think that's respectable. I have no problem that his dad comes to practices and watches him play.

[swilkins]

i don't have a problem at all with that analysis. i'm not arguing with that, really. well...i am...but not in this conversation, anyway. i'm just addressing the argument that goes, "teams have won without a Pro Bowl QB, so we don't need one." in my view, you don't pass up on a pro bowl QB, assuming you don't already have one, because some teams got by without it.

I understand your point. We just have different preferences.

I also think that you shouldn't pass up on a pro-bowl RB, when Carr has shown potential to improve.

[gucci888]

It has always been my opinion and still is that: Carr+Bush+Davis+Johnson+Mathis > VY+Davis+Johnson+Mathis.


Assuming we don't get a offensive player in return for Carr.

Would ya'll do Carr for Viking's #17, maybe we would throw in a 4th rounder or something. Pick up Santonio Holmes or Chad Jackson.

[NJRocket]

Draft Young...Carr blows

[gr8-1]

Agreed...I would love to have VY, but it just isn't going to happen...


me three. Reggie or bust now.

[TaxMan]

Assuming we don't get a offensive player in return for Carr.

Would ya'll do Carr for Viking's #17, maybe we would throw in a 4th rounder or something. Pick up Santonio Holmes or Chad Jackson.

If Charlie Casserly can get a #1 for David Carr, then he should go ahead and give his soul to Satan right then and there to complete the transaction.

[swilkins]

If Charlie Casserly can get a #1 for David Carr, then he should go ahead and give his soul to Satan right then and there to complete the transaction.

Welcome back :D

Please explain this, because I must be clueless.

[Dubious]

1.With the new CBA the salary cap went up enough to eat David Carr's signing bonus in the accelerated 1 year when he is traded. We can't get the high priced FA's to use it all this year anyway.

2. Why else would we have signed Sage Rosenfels? Because when we trade Carr we will need a veteran to back up or go in for Reggie.

Carr's on the block baby! We are taking Vince and loading up with the picks we get for Carr.


:D

[ktvoss]

1.With the new CBA the salary cap went up enough to eat David Carr's signing bonus in the accelerated 1 year when he is traded. We can't get the high priced FA's to use it all this year anyway.

2. Why else would we have signed Sage Rosenfels? Because when we trade Carr we will need a veteran to back up or go in for Reggie.

Carr's on the block baby! We are taking Vince and loading up with the picks we get for Carr.


:D

Keep dreaming.

[MadMax]

Welcome back :D

Please explain this, because I must be clueless.

he's saying no one is going to trade away a first round pick for David Carr.

[swilkins]

he's saying no one is going to trade away a first round pick for David Carr.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Because I was confused by the TaxMan, yaaaah-aaaaaahh the TaxMaaaaaan.

[Dubious]

Keep dreaming.

I call it conceptualizing my own perfect reality.

[gr8-1]

If Charlie Casserly can get a #1 for David Carr, then he should go ahead and give his soul to Satan right then and there to complete the transaction.


If Culpepper was traded for a #2, then the texans should be able to get a top 3 pick for Dave. ;)

[gunn]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

CUTLER HEADED FOR A FALL?

Over the past few months, we've offered up opinions from various league sources regarding a potential draft-day free fall for quarterbacks Matt Leinart and Vince Young.

We're now hearing that Jay Cutler could be the one who ends up sliding.

Of course, this is the season of misinformation in the NFL. Some teams will hype a guy in the hopes that a franchise selecting in front of them will draft him. Other teams will knock a guy in the hopes that he'll fall to them.

But as to the insights we've recently picked up regarding the assessment of the three quarterbacks projected to be taken in round one of the draft, we're persuaded that the source has no horse in the race -- making his observations far more credible.

The question of when Leinart, Young, and Cutler will be drafted depends in large part on the structure of the teams assessing the picks. "Teams that have a strong G.M. and personnel department draft based on production and value," said the source. "When a coach has more to do with the final say, then they seem to go more on workouts. Scouts spend about eleven months going over the players in their area, finding out about character, work habits, coachability, etc., only to get nudged out by a coach who has worked part time for two months on the same thing and then seems to have all the answers."

But what about the buzz surrounding Cutler?

"I have read over and over the last few months that Leinart and Young have dropped and Cutler has risen in scouts eyes," said the source. "What a joke. What has Cutler ever won? He never had a winning season at Vandy. He lost six games in a row this year. Looked very average at the Senior Bowl and very average at the combine, yet people seem to think he should be drafted in the top ten. Why? Because he has a strong arm?

"Let's see, Leinart and Young have won three national titles between them, have great stats, are very strong leaders, won a ton of games, have solid character and they aren't as good as Cutler who lost six games this year alone and never had a winning season? I thought that a real good quarterback was supposed to make his team better and lead them to wins."

So has Young overcome the hit that he took based on reports of a low Wonderlic score?

"All that sh-t about his test score is bogus," said the source. "He could not have done what he has done at Texas if he was real dumb.

"You mentioned that Young's stock rose after his workout last week. Well, a good scouting dept should have had him near the top of their board all along. All he has done is win. If a team is interested, they will bring him in, get him on board with their offensive staff, and find out how good his aptitude for football is. They will find out that he has a very strong passion for the game and is football smart."

Where, then, should Cutler land? "He doesn't deserve to go in the first round," said the source. "He is not anywhere as good as Patrick Ramsey was four years ago. He went at 31 and has been a bust."

Yikes.

Don't expect this debate to die down. After all, there are plenty of teams with coaches who have a lot of say in the draft process, giving Cutler's workout results greater weight in those cities. And when Leinart, who isn't a big T-shirt-and-shorts guy, has what likely will be received as an average workout on April 2, look for the opinions and projections to continue to conflict and jumble.

[gunn]

The question of when Leinart, Young, and Cutler will be drafted depends in large part on the structure of the teams assessing the picks. "Teams that have a strong G.M. and personnel department draft based on production and value," said the source. "When a coach has more to do with the final say, then they seem to go more on workouts. Scouts spend about eleven months going over the players in their area, finding out about character, work habits, coachability, etc., only to get nudged out by a coach who has worked part time for two months on the same thing and then seems to have all the answers."

This paragraph sounds like a complete ripping on the Texans.

[swilkins]

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

CUTLER HEADED FOR A FALL?

I've been wondering about this too. What has Cutler really done to deserve it?

[gunn]

I've been wondering about this too. What has Cutler really done to deserve it?


The hype or the fall?

[swilkins]

The hype or the fall?

All of it, but mostly the hype.

I wasn't that impressed with him to begin with.

[gunn]

All of it, but mostly the hype.

I wasn't that impressed with him to begin with.

Oh, you didn't hear about his arm strength, or the Brett Favre comparisons? :rolleyes: ;)

[SamFisher]

I've been wondering about this too. What has Cutler really done to deserve it?

He has done his best like everybody else. But now it is his turn to recieve the hype machine backlash. It happened to Young, now it is his turn. That is life in the insane world of the draft.

[bigtexxx]

got a good chuckle out of this earlier today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/bigtexxx/tower6.jpg

[Groogrux]

Mmm, haterade.

[halfbreed]

got a good chuckle out of this earlier today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/bigtexxx/tower6.jpg

I laugh every time I realize we've won 6 baseball championships, too!

:D

[swilkins]

He has done his best like everybody else. But now it is his turn to recieve the hype machine backlash. It happened to Young, now it is his turn. That is life in the insane world of the draft.

Young performed on the biggest stage in college football and succeeded. Because of this, he deserves to get the positive press. His test score was low, which adds doubt to some. This is understandable to me.

Cutler is all hype with not much substance IMO. His personal workouts will tell the tale.

[percicles]

Nice little article on Vince. No "anonymous scout" analysis, just two head coaches who know something about pocket and mobile QB's.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/stories/032906dnspogosselin.121c9607.html

Unique talents are friend, foe for Vince Young

ORLANDO, Fla.– The Big 12 came to fear Vince Young. So did Southern Cal. Now it's the NFL's turn.

Young quarterbacked Texas to a national championship in 2005, beating Southern Cal in the Rose Bowl with his arm and legs, then decided to skip his senior season to enter the 2006 NFL draft.

Since that time Young has become the most scrutinized player on the draft board. He's been criticized for his low Wonderlic test score, his throwing motion and the infrequency he took direct center snaps in college.

More than 100 NFL types attended his workout in Austin last week to watch him run and throw.

"I have a sense that what this league does to a guy who plays that brilliantly is beat up on him pretty good," said Baltimore Ravens coach Brian Billick during a break at the NFL spring meetings. "A guy who's going to go as high [in the draft] as Vince Young will be critiqued and over-critiqued."

Why? Because the NFL doesn't quite know what to make of Young.

"Unique is a word you don't want to throw out there too often," Billick said. "But this guy is truly unique – and that uniqueness is what has most people apprehensive.

"We all want to make comparisons to give ourselves a comfort zone, like the Jake Plummer-Joe Montana analogy. A Matt Leinart is very direct. We've seen him before in this league. He translates very easily, so you have a much stronger conviction about how he'll do.

"But there's trepidation with a guy as unique as Young. It's a little frightening."

Billick is an expert on quarterbacks and what it takes to play the position in the NFL. He called the plays as the offensive coordinator at Minnesota in 1998 when the Vikings set an NFL scoring record and quarterback Randall Cunningham went to the Pro Bowl.

Billick was the head coach of the Ravens in 2002 when Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl as a caretaker quarterback. Billick also has coached Brad Johnson, Elvis Grbac and Kyle Boller. He's coached mobile quarterbacks and pocket passers, big arms and the average arms.

In short, Billick has coached all types of quarterbacks – but he's never seen one quite like Young.

"If you try to pigeon hole him as a Randall Cunningham or a Michael Vick – I don't know if you're going to be able to connect the dots in a way you'd like," Billick said. "As Vick has done, Young could create his own category because of the size, the speed and the athleticism."

Dennis Green was the head coach of that Minnesota team that set the NFL scoring record. He also coached Daunte Culpepper at Minnesota, and now coaches Kurt Warner at Arizona.

So Green also knows a little something about quarterbacks – and he knows there's more to the position than just taking the center snaps.

"The game is about a guy's talent and intangibles," Green said. "I'd say Vince Young probably has the most intangibles we've seen in a long, long time. You're talking about a guy who's changed the game. He played against USC and made them look like they had average athletes on the field. It's because he was such a superior athlete.

"We try to make this game more complicated than it is. Does he throw completions? Can he lead his team? Does he have the instincts for the position? I think he'll be a hell of a pro."

Young passed for 267 yards and rushed for 200 yards and three touchdowns in a 41-38 victory over Southern Cal in the national title game. For the season, Young completed 65.2 percent of his passes for 3,036 yards and 26 touchdowns and rushed for 1,050 yards and 12 more scores, finishing as the Heisman Trophy runner-up.

Jacksonville Jaguars general manager James Harris says forget questions about Young's intelligence, delivery and ability to function in a conventional offense.

"The only question you have to ask is do you want to play against him?" Harris said

[gunn]

Unique talents are friend, foe for Vince Young


Great read. It would be nice to see the Texans have some vision and a set of stones big enough to draft Vince. It would be even better if they could come up with the steal of the century and trade down, pick up some extra picks and still get Vince Young.

[Rocket Fan]

.

Cutler is all hype with not much substance IMO. His personal workouts will tell the tale.

The personal workout went very well.

[Rocket Fan]

Isn't that the same site you people said has no credibility when the wonderlic stuff was posted :)

[mateo]

Profootballweekly looks different if you read it with Vince-o-vision or not.

[Rocket Fan]

Profootballweekly looks different if you read it with Vince-o-vision or not.

Oh, ok.. makes sense :)

[jopatmc]

"The only question you have to ask is do you want to play against him?" Harris said.



That says it all right there.

Now ask this question:

Who would you rather play against and have to defend against, Vince Young or Reggie Bush?


The QB handles the ball every play. The rules of the league are set up to protect the QB much more than any other position on the field. I'm sorry but if you had to worry about defending either one of these guys, you may take Vince and think that you can confuse him with the speed of the game, especially his first year or two. But then again, would you want to take the chance? Or would you rather just defend against the sure thing, and take away the alleys from Bush by jamming defenders in the box until you got 2nd and long or 3rd and long then bring in pass coverage against Carr and Bush or would you rather have to line up, not knowing whether Young is gonna throw it, hand it off to a decent back in Davis who has proven he can find the holes and creases and make 4 yds, or just take off and run like a rabbit on steroids for 40 yards on you?

If Elway can scramble in this league and make HUGE HUGE plays from busted plays.....If Elway can look as confused as popcorn in grease but still have the physical tools to make the play happen, when he was in his first couple of years.....If Marino can look like a football genius while scoring in the teens on the Wonderluck exam.....If Vince can take old stodgy grizzled supposed expert college coaches and turn them on their ear, even going as far as convincing them to change their whole mindset about strategy and style of play and let him "lead". Think about that for a minute. He convinced college coaches making millions of dollars, representing one of the top 4 or 5 college programs in the United States to change the way they did business. Does anybody doubt his ability to lead?

Well, if he can lead, then does anybody doubt his physical tools? Then, what else is there? Playing QB in the NFL is all about leadership and applying the physical tools to get the job done.

Some QBs are poor leaders. Some are mediocre. But the best of the best are all great leaders.

Vince is the best leader to come out of college since Peyton. He's also the best athlete at the QB position to come out of college.....dare I say....ever.

[Groogrux]

Profootballweekly looks different if you read it with Vince-o-vision or not.

So do Rose Bowls. :D

[Rocket Fan]

So do Rose Bowls. :D
:D That was good I must admit...

[thegary]

free VY

[rhester]

"Trinity, now do you believe he's the One?"

[Desert Scar]

....Vince is the best leader to come out of college since Peyton. He's also the best athlete at the QB position to come out of college.....dare I say....ever.

I pretty much agree with your position except the last one, Peyton? VY is quite the polar opposite of big game el foldo extrodinaire Peyton Manning. Peyton has a very consistently been a great stats guy against lesser comp who is poor in big time situations (versus Florida and major bowls in college, playoffs in the pros). VY can be the opposite, at times against weak comp he did not play up to his capabilities (maybe gets complacent with his talent advantage), but you put him in a big time game and pressure and it brings out the best in him.

Nice little article on Vince. No "anonymous scout" analysis, just two head coaches who know something about pocket and mobile QB's.


It is a very good article. I have noticed former NFL players and coaches all seem to have much more regard for VY potential to be a great NFL player than the "expert scouts". One a bit odd thing is people act like they haven't see a player like him before. He is much more comparable to passer-runner athletes like McNair, McNabb, Culpepper or Cunningham than any of those players or VY is to the runner-passer (also undersized and no passing touch but phenom athletic) Mike Vick. I don't see Young as near the wild card as Mike Vick, and the jury is still out on Vick.

It would stun me if it is the Texans, but the team who drafts VY is going to feel awefully lucky down the road.

[Baqui99]

I pretty much agree with your position except the last one, Peyton? VY is quite the polar opposite of big game el foldo extrodinaire Peyton Manning. Peyton has a very consistently been a great stats guy against lesser comp who is poor in big time situations (versus Florida and major bowls in college, playoffs in the pros). VY can be the opposite, at times against weak comp he did not play up to his capabilities (maybe gets complacent with his talent advantage), but you put him in a big time game and pressure and it brings out the best in him.

VY seems to play his best when the game is on the line, something that Peyton has yet to demonstrate. He couldn't win it all at Tennessee, and he's folded in the playoffs for 3 straight years.

[aburttschell]

"The only question you have to ask is do you want to play against him?" Harris said.



That says it all right there.

Now ask this question:

Who would you rather play against and have to defend against, Vince Young or Reggie Bush?


The QB handles the ball every play. The rules of the league are set up to protect the QB much more than any other position on the field. I'm sorry but if you had to worry about defending either one of these guys, you may take Vince and think that you can confuse him with the speed of the game, especially his first year or two. But then again, would you want to take the chance? Or would you rather just defend against the sure thing, and take away the alleys from Bush by jamming defenders in the box until you got 2nd and long or 3rd and long then bring in pass coverage against Carr and Bush or would you rather have to line up, not knowing whether Young is gonna throw it, hand it off to a decent back in Davis who has proven he can find the holes and creases and make 4 yds, or just take off and run like a rabbit on steroids for 40 yards on you?

If Elway can scramble in this league and make HUGE HUGE plays from busted plays.....If Elway can look as confused as popcorn in grease but still have the physical tools to make the play happen, when he was in his first couple of years.....If Marino can look like a football genius while scoring in the teens on the Wonderluck exam.....If Vince can take old stodgy grizzled supposed expert college coaches and turn them on their ear, even going as far as convincing them to change their whole mindset about strategy and style of play and let him "lead". Think about that for a minute. He convinced college coaches making millions of dollars, representing one of the top 4 or 5 college programs in the United States to change the way they did business. Does anybody doubt his ability to lead?

Well, if he can lead, then does anybody doubt his physical tools? Then, what else is there? Playing QB in the NFL is all about leadership and applying the physical tools to get the job done.

Some QBs are poor leaders. Some are mediocre. But the best of the best are all great leaders.

Vince is the best leader to come out of college since Peyton. He's also the best athlete at the QB position to come out of college.....dare I say....ever.

Yes they do doubt his physical tools. That's why scouts like the guys at Ourlads.com have him as a second round talent. His throwing ability is a physical tool, and that's the biggest question for NFL scouts.

[pgabriel]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/stories/032906dnspogosselin.121c9607.html

Unique talents are friend, foe for Vince Young


Dennis Green was the head coach of that Minnesota team that set the NFL scoring record. He also coached Daunte Culpepper at Minnesota, and now coaches Kurt Warner at Arizona.

So Green also knows a little something about quarterbacks – and he knows there's more to the position than just taking the center snaps.

"The game is about a guy's talent and intangibles," Green said. "I'd say Vince Young probably has the most intangibles we've seen in a long, long time. You're talking about a guy who's changed the game. He played against USC and made them look like they had average athletes on the field. It's because he was such a superior athlete.




Green speaks his mind and he isn't stupid. He's the coach who took randy moss when 19 before him looked liked total idioits, and he took Daunte, who was highly thought of but people had doubts because he played small college football.

[pgabriel]

Yes they do doubt his physical tools. That's why scouts like the guys at Ourlads.com have him as a second round talent. His throwing ability is a physical tool, and that's the biggest question for NFL scouts.


that's one guy at ourlads, the one who runs the site. he's a frequent guest on 610 and I even heard him this weekend on Sporting News' network. he doesn't like vince, so what, he's not an nfl scout. I'll take Billick's and green's opinion over his.

[peleincubus]

ive lost interest over the years in the NFL but with this draft coming in its starting to spark my interest again.

[SamFisher]

Yes they do doubt his physical tools. That's why scouts like the guys at Ourlads.com have him as a second round talent. His throwing ability is a physical tool, and that's the biggest question for NFL scouts.

thanks abuttshell, you're still running with the Akili Smith Comparison from about a hundred pages back?

That guy from Ourlad's said he should be a fourth round pick. Lots of cred for that guy.

[aburttschell]

thanks abuttshell, you're still running with the Akili Smith Comparison from about a hundred pages back?

That guy from Ourlad's said he should be a fourth round pick. Lots of cred for that guy.

Actually he said he'd either go to Arizona or the Ravens. Probably should a least know what your talking about.

[SamFisher]

Actually he said he'd either go to Arizona or the Ravens. Probably should a least know what your talking about.

And he's been saying that he shouldn't even go that high. This is odd to me, as for the bulk of Vince's college career, Dan Shonka was incarcerated in a Wisconsin state prison after selling stolen greyhounds for medical research. Very odd.

But hey, buttshell, that's what you and Akili Smith have to go on, so you can have it.

[KAS13]

I pretty much agree with your position except the last one, Peyton? VY is quite the polar opposite of big game el foldo extrodinaire Peyton Manning. Peyton has a very consistently been a great stats guy against lesser comp who is poor in big time situations (versus Florida and major bowls in college, playoffs in the pros). VY can be the opposite, at times against weak comp he did not play up to his capabilities (maybe gets complacent with his talent advantage), but you put him in a big time game and pressure and it brings out the best in him.



It is a very good article. I have noticed former NFL players and coaches all seem to have much more regard for VY potential to be a great NFL player than the "expert scouts". One a bit odd thing is people act like they haven't see a player like him before. He is much more comparable to passer-runner athletes like McNair, McNabb, Culpepper or Cunningham than any of those players or VY is to the runner-passer (also undersized and no passing touch but phenom athletic) Mike Vick. I don't see Young as near the wild card as Mike Vick, and the jury is still out on Vick.

It would stun me if it is the Texans, but the team who drafts VY is going to feel awefully lucky down the road.

Come on now. Peyton Manning may go down as the best QB ever. His career isn't over yet guys. The two aren't even comparable because they play two totally different styles. VY will have to be one of the best ever to even touch Manning's accomplishments.

[KAS13]

And he's been saying that he shouldn't even go that high. This is odd to me, as for the bulk of Vince's college career, Dan Shonka was incarcerated in a Wisconsin state prison after selling stolen greyhounds for medical research. Very odd.

But hey, buttshell, that's what you and Akili Smith have to go on, so you can have it.


They have been saying on ESPn and 790 that there's virtually no chance of Young slipping out of the top 10 anymore. Only a few people are saying that. They said that if he slips past Oakland the Cowboys will do everything in their power to deal up for him. He won't make it past Arizona anyways at 10.

[Desert Scar]

.....That's why scouts like the guys at Ourlads.com have him as a second round talent.......

No, they have them there because they are a bunch of attention whoring idiots. That is not a legitimate analysis one bit. No body in their right mind has VY anything less than the 3rd QB (some 1st) and top half of the 1st round. Even KAS, no VY proponent, outlines this above.

Also, his arm strength and accuracy for a pro QB are not major concerns at this point. They may not be strengths on the level of the most elite QB prospects to ever come out, but they are definetly not weaknesses. The only major concern is his ability to run a pro offense and/or duration needed to learn one. I don't think it will be a problem, but one could understand someone having concerns about it.

Come on now. Peyton Manning may go down as the best QB ever. His career isn't over yet guys. The two aren't even comparable because they play two totally different styles. VY will have to be one of the best ever to even touch Manning's accomplishments.

I am not saying VY will be a better pro than Peyton Manning. It was a discussion about leadership in particular. PM seems to alienate his teammates and plays his worst games at the most critical moments (college and pro). VY elevates his game and there is no question his whole team (players and coaches) has his back. Hell, Trent Dilfer is a better leader than Peyton Manning too, not a better player by the wildest imagination, but a better leader.

[KAS13]

No, they have them there because they are a bunch of attention whoring idiots. That is not a legitimate analysis one bit. No body in their right mind has VY anything less than the 3rd QB (some 1st) and top half of the 1st round. Even KAS, no VY proponent, outlines this above.

Also, his arm strength and accuracy for a pro QB are not major concerns at this point. They may not be strengths on the level of the most elite QB prospects to ever come out, but they are definetly not weaknesses. The only major concern is his ability to run a pro offense and/or duration needed to learn one. I don't think it will be a problem, but one could understand someone having concerns about it.



I am not saying VY will be a better pro than Peyton Manning. It was a discussion about leadership in particular. PM seems to alienate his teammates and plays his worst games at the most critical moments (college and pro). VY elevates his game and there is no question his whole team (players and coaches) has his back. Hell, Trent Dilfer is a better leader than Peyton Manning too, not a better player by the wildest imagination, but a better leader.


VY did it in college though. I have no idea what he'll do in the pros. I actually hate Peyton Manning but we don't know if he's actually a poor leader. They had no defense at all until this season. Trent Dilfer isn't a better leader then Manning. He didn't make mistakes and let an amazing defense win a SB for him. Ray Lewis was that teams leader

[rhester]

I have no idea what he'll do in the pros.

I have some idea, not much but just a little...

I need to watch the last two Rose Bowl games again... things are getting fuzzy ;)

[Da Man]

Bad myth: Peyton Manning has performed poorly in the postseason.

Manning's playoff statistics

* 322 passes attempted
* 193 passes completed
* 2,461 passing yards
* 15 passing touchdowns
* 8 passes intercepted
* 3-6 postseason record
* 52.8 passing attempts per interception in the postseason

His postseason record is not the best. So be it. 4 out of the 6 teams he lost to in the playoffs went on to play in the Superbowl. 3 out of the 4 went on the win the superbowl. He has also played in 2 AFC Championship games, something Warren Moon never accomplished. He's competed nearly 60% of his passes and has a near 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio. He's a 2-time NFL MVP and will go down as one of the top 5 QB's of all time. I'm pretty sure Peyton Manning is not the primary reason the Colts have failed to win a championship.

And he has also posted two of the greatest postseason performances of all time in 2003 and 2004. He completed 22 of 26 for 377 yards and 5 td's in 2003. He completed 27 of 33 for 457 yards and 4 td's in 2004.

[KAS13]

I have some idea, not much but just a little...

I need to watch the last two Rose Bowl games again... things are getting fuzzy ;)


Great college performances don't neccessairly translate into great performances in the pros. I hope VY does well but I'm not ready to annoit him a superstar before he's taken a snap.

I'm more concerned about Reggie because that's who we're taking. Let's hope he's the bigger superstar of the two.

[emjohn]

Bad myth: Peyton Manning has performed poorly in the postseason.

Manning's playoff statistics

* 322 passes attempted
* 193 passes completed
* 2,461 passing yards
* 15 passing touchdowns
* 8 passes intercepted
* 3-6 postseason record
* 52.8 passing attempts per interception in the postseason

His postseason record is not the best. So be it. 4 out of the 6 teams he lost to in the playoffs went on to play in the Superbowl. 3 out of the 4 went on the win the superbowl. He has also played in 2 AFC Championship games, something Warren Moon never accomplished. He's competed nearly 60% of his passes and has a near 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio. He's a 2-time NFL MVP and will go down as one of the top 5 QB's of all time. I'm pretty sure Peyton Manning is not the primary reason the Colts have failed to win a championship.

And he has also posted two of the greatest postseason performances of all time in 2003 and 2004. He completed 22 of 26 for 377 yards and 5 td's in 2003. He completed 27 of 33 for 457 yards and 4 td's in 2004.
Have you ever watched him in the clutch? Quote numbers all you'd like, and I'm quite a stat-happy fellow myself, but it's tough to argue that he doesn't shrivel when the heat is on in the postseason..

[Da Man]

Everyone has moments where they haven't shined in the postseason. Did you see Brett Favre in the 1998 Superbowl against the Broncos during the 4th quarter? Shaky performance. Did you see John Elway in his first 3 superbowls? Terrible performances in 1986,1987, and 1989.

[Desert Scar]

VY did it in college though. I have no idea what he'll do in the pros. I actually hate Peyton Manning but we don't know if he's actually a poor leader. They had no defense at all until this season. Trent Dilfer isn't a better leader then Manning. He didn't make mistakes and let an amazing defense win a SB for him. Ray Lewis was that teams leader

I am not saying a better player, but better leader. VY was certainly a better leader than Peyton in college. Peyton was on lots of teams with future pros and never won a major/BCS type bowl or SEC championship if I recall (maybe 1/5 or so).

I distinguish leadership from overall talent. So far, in the pros, Manning has not shown the leadership of Brady in the 2nd season (playoffs), or perhaps McNabb.

Bad myth: Peyton Manning has performed poorly in the postseason.

Manning's playoff statistics

* 322 passes attempted
* 193 passes completed
* 2,461 passing yards
* 15 passing touchdowns
* 8 passes intercepted
* 3-6 postseason record
* 52.8 passing attempts per interception in the postseason

His postseason record is not the best. So be it. 4 out of the 6 teams he lost to in the playoffs went on to play in the Superbowl. 3 out of the 4 went on the win the superbowl. He has also played in 2 AFC Championship games, something Warren Moon never accomplished. He's competed nearly 60% of his passes and has a near 2 to 1 TD to INT ratio. He's a 2-time NFL MVP and will go down as one of the top 5 QB's of all time. I'm pretty sure Peyton Manning is not the primary reason the Colts have failed to win a championship.

And he has also posted two of the greatest postseason performances of all time in 2003 and 2004. He completed 22 of 26 for 377 yards and 5 td's in 2003. He completed 27 of 33 for 457 yards and 4 td's in 2004.

Overall statistics are misleading. Manning had some great games in blowouts (Denver) and against terrible defenses (KC). One major "myth" is the Colts defense sucks. If you look at most of the Colts recent playoff exits, it has not been their defense that failed them. It has been their offense that has failed them, and who is their leader?

Peyton Manning is a great player. But his leadership record when most QBs are judged has not been great--college or pro (what 10 years of evidence). Moon is a great example. It is the reason Moon is not mentioned with Elway or Montana. Moon and Manning have had great players around them on both sides of the ball as well. Unless Manning wins superbowls (particularly considering the level of pro bowlers around him, let's not pretent he has Archie Manning's supporting cast)--he will not be mentioned with Montana or Elway at the top of the best ever list.

I am not even saying Manning is the "primary reason" the Colts have not made it to a superbowl. But nor can I say they Colts keep on losing in the playoffs despite Manning's and his side of the ball's great playoff performances in those losses.

[mateo]

So do Rose Bowls. :D

Rose-colored lenses?

[Da Man]

I am not saying a better player, but better leader. VY was certainly a better leader than Peyton in college. Peyton was on lots of teams with future pros and never won a major/BCS type bowl or SEC championship if I recall (maybe 1/5 or so).

I distinguish leadership from overall talent. So far, in the pros, Manning has not shown the leadership of Brady in the 2nd season (playoffs), or perhaps McNabb.



Overall statistics are misleading. Manning had some great games in blowouts (Denver) and against terrible defenses (KC). One major "myth" is the Colts defense sucks. If you look at most of the Colts recent playoff exits, it has not been their defense that failed them. It has been their offense that has failed them, and who is their leader?

Peyton Manning is a great player. But his leadership record when most QBs are judged has not been great--college or pro (what 10 years of evidence). Moon is a great example. It is the reason Moon is not mentioned with Elway or Montana. Moon and Manning have had great players around them on both sides of the ball as well. Unless Manning wins superbowls (particularly considering the level of pro bowlers around him, let's not pretent he has Archie Manning's supporting cast)--he will not be mentioned with Montana or Elway at the top of the best ever list.

I am not even saying Manning is the "primary reason" the Colts have not made it to a superbowl. But nor can I say they Colts keep on losing in the playoffs despite Manning's and his side of the ball's great playoff performances in those losses.

When evaluating any player, we need to evaluate a player based on his body of work. We can't single out one or two games and make a fair evaulations. Fact is, Manning has played in 9 playoff games, and he has had good production. Leadership is such a qualitative thing that is hard to quantify. It makes no sense for us to say this guy is a great leader, yet this guy is an average leader. Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Troy Aikman, Ben Roslithberger, Tom Brady, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Joe Montana, and John Elway have all led teams to Super Bowl wins. Does that make them this elusive "great leader"?

[jopatmc]

I simply used Peyton because I did not want to fade the heat of saying Vince is the best leader to come out of college since Joe Montana.

[Fegwu]

Will Lendale White be performing in this Saturday's USC Pro-day?

[gucci888]

Will Lendale White be performing in this Saturday's USC Pro-day?

I'm sure he will.

[Nice Rollin]

regggggggggie bush

[BenignDMD]

In the Eyes of a Longhorn Fan it would be great to see Vince Young Revive the Football Fan base here in houston, namely the Longhorn Alumni and Texas Ex's. Yes, the luxury is ours to have first draft pick and I am betting Reggie Bush has a better chance than Vince Young because than what are we goona do with Carr? Are we going to Re - Form and re-train the entire offensive Line? If so, vince has a chance, if our pockets are that deep, we have seen major changes in a Head Coach and many more surprises are likely from the Texan Organization this Year!

Hook Em
Kho Raja

[Kho786]

In the Eyes of a Longhorn Fan it would be great to see Vince Young Revive the Football Fan base here in houston, namely the Longhorn Alumni and Texas Ex's. Yes, the luxury is ours to have first draft pick and I am betting Reggie Bush has a better chance than Vince Young because than what are we goona do with Carr? Are we going to Re - Form and re-train the entire offensive Line? If so, vince has a chance, if our pockets are that deep, we have seen major changes in a Head Coach and many more surprises are likely from the Texan Organization this Year!

Hook Em
Kho Raja

[MadMax]

In the Eyes of a Longhorn Fan it would be great to see Vince Young Revive the Football Fan base here in houston, namely the Longhorn Alumni and Texas Ex's. Yes, the luxury is ours to have first draft pick and I am betting Reggie Bush has a better chance than Vince Young because than what are we goona do with Carr? Are we going to Re - Form and re-train the entire offensive Line? If so, vince has a chance, if our pockets are that deep, we have seen major changes in a Head Coach and many more surprises are likely from the Texan Organization this Year!

Hook Em
Kho Raja



;)

[SamFisher]

Interesting article on why teams are afraid to take Young (and no, it's not the typical ignorant "Akili Smith-can't throw-blah blah-blah" crap)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/bill_syken/03/30/vince/index.html

[mateo]

Dr. Z from CNNSi today:

It's not personal ... it's personnel
A league source gives the real scoop on top prospects
Posted: Friday March 31, 2006 11:45AM; Updated: Friday March 31, 2006 11:50AM


During the league meetings in Orlando I sat down for a deep-cover type of conversation with my favorite NFL executive. His first name is A. His last name is Personnel Man. We call him in print "A Personnel Man," because if you use his real name he won't talk to you anymore and then I won't be able to write this kind of column.

He doesn't like his name used because most of what he has to say is negative, or at least it is this year. I've never known him to gush, which is great because I hate gushing. He finds things wrong. So do I. I asked him what he thought of the unbridled riches available for free agents these days. He smiled because he liked this question.

"Too much money. Not enough players," he said.

"An agent told me," he added, "'You can't go by last year's contracts. Look at the way the cap went up.' I told him the cap went up but the players' ability didn't."

I told him I wanted to know who the top potential draft choices are. "I'm having trouble finding 10 elite ones," I said.

"Not easy this year," he said.

First, one must sort out the quarterbacks. We're assuming that Tennessee, in the No. 3 spot, will go for a QB. I've been told that the Titans' offensive coordinator, Norm Chow, who coached Matt Leinart at USC, lines them up in this order: Leinart, Jay Cutler of Vanderbilt, Vince Young of Texas. The rest of the staff is split between Leinart and Young at No. 1.

New Orleans, which drafts second, already has signed ex-Charger Drew Brees to a high-paying contract. "It's unrealistic to think that the Saints could draft a quarterback at No. 2 and tie up $40 or $50 million in guaranteed money for two players," our source says.

But someone always could trade into that spot for a QB. Or use it to leapfrog into the Texans' spot at No. 1, since it's no secret that Houston's coach, Gary Kubiak, wants to draft a runner, Reggie Bush. It would make a lot of sense for the Texans to move down one spot, provided they were sure that the new No. 1 team would draft a QB. Houston would get its guy, plus an extra draft. But Houston couldn't move lower than No. 2 for fear of losing Bush.

Young is slightly ahead of Cutler, behind Leinart. The stories of Young's supposed score of 2 in the Wonderlic IQ test are not true, we were told. Seven, and then 15 on a re-test, are the correct numbers.

"Is Leinart another Peyton Manning in 1998?" I asked my man. "The safest pick among the quarterbacks?"

"Except for one thing that makes me nervous about him," he said. "Manning had an intense work ethic on and off the field, and I don't sense it about Leinart, the lifting, etc. Of course that could change by the time camp starts."

I told you this guy was inclined to be negative. How about Young? Is it fair to say he's a young Randall Cunningham?

"Well, I never saw Cunningham in college," he said, "and the best person right now to ask about Randall's rookie year with the Eagles would be Ron Jaworski. He was his teammate then."

As the draft approaches, I'll talk to Jaws.

OK, let's give away Bush, Young and Leinart to somebody in the first three picks. That leaves Cutler at No. 4 if the Jets would be interested. Which would mean that they re-signed their starter, Chad Pennington, they traded for Patrick Ramsey and then they would draft a third one, which would give them the trifecta. Hard to see that happening.

So here are a few potential top-10 names. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, the tackle for Virginia. That might not be a bad choice for New Orleans, either.

"A good player," my man says, "but not in the class of a Tony Boselli. I'd say more on the level of a Levi Jones."

It can be a mystifying position at times. The surest left tackle bet since Boselli was Robert Gallery of Iowa and look at him now, struggling at RT for the Raiders.

"The only thing I can think of," says our super-scout, "is that those Iowa tackles are so well coached, so well drilled, that their excellence of technique masks their athletic ability."

The second-best tackle projection is Winston Justice of USC. Potentially a top 10 selection?

"A risk," says my man. "Great ability, but his performance depended on which game you watched him in. He didn't play in 2004 and he absolutely should have stayed in school another year. He really would have helped himself. He has athletic ability, he'll look great in workouts, he's just inconsistent."

OK, I'll do it this way. I'll shoot out the names, followed by Deep Throat's capsule comments and hopefully we'll find a top 10 choice or two.

Ohio State LB A.J. Hawk and Maryland TE Vernon Davis:

"Both should be top 10. When's the last time you saw a tight end run in the 4.3s? I don't remember ever seeing one."

Jimmy Williams of Virginia Tech, supposedly the best cornerback:

"An enigma. Played much better in '04 than '05. More of a cover two corner. Maybe they could move him inside."

How about Max Jean-Gilles, the 355-pound Georgia guard, plus another serious jumbo, Haloti Ngata, the 338-pound Oregon DT?

"Jean-Gilles is a road grader type. When you see him live, he's more athletic than he looks on tape. But he's got a weight problem, and the percentage of guys who overcome that isn't good. Ngata is a man, a huge physical guy. If he wants to he can really stack things up at the point, but he didn't play hard all the time. There wasn't a lot of production. I'm afraid he's more hype than substance."

OK, here's a guy whose stock is soaring right now. He could be a safetyman or a corner projection. His combine speed was 4.34, which you seldom see for strong safeties. I'm talking about Michael Huff of Texas.

"Look, I'm really sorry to be so negative, but here's what I see here. I see a guy who has trained very hard to run the 40 at the combine. He runs it too effectively. Everybody's getting better at this speed thing. They're learning how to train for it very efficiently. The trick is not to get fooled by this. Huff is a guy who runs fast but doesn't play fast."

OK, Mr. A, could you please give me one sleeper, a guy who's not projected near the top of the board but might slip in?

"Ernie Sims, outside linebacker from Florida State. I see him listed as fourth- or fifth-best on some charts. He's a lot better than that. An undersized guy with tremendous athletic ability."

[Groogrux]

So now the rumored score is down to 2? What's next, are haters going to be saying he scored a -4?

[Rocket Fan]

norm has jay ahead of vince. smart man :)

[Rocket Fan]

I don't get where the 2 came from.. but it does make sense that if they graded it wrong the score would only be off slightly. 6 to a 7

[Groogrux]

I don't get where the 2 came from.. but it does make sense that if they graded it wrong the score would only be off slightly. 6 to a 7

If they graded it wrong, it seems like it'd make more sense for it to be off more than slightly unless they just graded one question wrong. Regardless, we have the NFL saying the report of 6 is false and another league source saying reports of that low a score are false.

Only the haters think the original report was true. Or that it matters more than 467.

[SamFisher]

norm has jay ahead of vince. smart man :)

Here's why:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/bill_syken/03/30/vince/index.html

[Rocket Fan]

rocketman95.. I'd just think you would more than likely just miss a question or two if you grade something wrong...

And a report that says that reports of a score as low of a 6 are wrong.. means anything above 6 is possible..

one of the houston tv stations mentioned the 7 thing as well.

I just think it's reasonable to think if the 2nd test was only a 16. the first attempt probably wasn't very good.. some people have said he retook the same exact test.. so.. i dunno

don't really care anymore at this point

[Rocket Fan]

samfisher..I think coaches would be more than willing to change if they thought it would make them win more games...

but do they think they'd win in the NFL with a different system?

[SamFisher]

samfisher..I think coaches would be more than willing to change if they thought it would make them win more games...


But they have an inherent bias agaisnt this, being control freaks and being paranoid about getting blamed when things go wrong.


but do they think they'd win in the NFL with a different system?

Mack Brown changed his approach to fit Vince and succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

Really, I'm just repeating what's in the article, which addresses the points you raise, I think.



This is sort of one of my pet issues with regard to sports and life - I think that rigidity and doing things a certain way for no better reason than that that's the way everybody is conventionally "supposed" to do them (e.g., the rox shouldn't hire Morey as GM because you're not "supposed" to do that, and instead bring in some re-tread from the NBA front-office-go-round, the Rox should bring in Alston because you're "supposed" to have a "pass-first PG", etc etc etc) is at many times counterproductive and stifling.

I under stand the logic behind "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".....but "if it ain't broke, don't bother trying to improve or anything newr" is not helpful in my opinion

[mateo]

I'm actually more interested in figuring out how the Texans could trade down to 2 and still get Bush. I'm over the whole Vince vs. Bush thing, its old news.

[Rocket Fan]

mateo.. I'd love to move down to 2 if we can get bush.. as long as someone doesn't then trade with whoever moves to 1 and get bush ahead of us..



samfisher.. true, I just don't think it's a control thing as much as a .. don't want to get fired if it doesn't work.. good point though...

[rhester]

I'm actually more interested in figuring out how the Texans could trade down to 2 and still get Bush. I'm over the whole Vince vs. Bush thing, its old news.

Nobody is going to trade up to #1 and take R. Bush- be sure of that, the only team in the league that would draft Bush #1 is the Texans because they sit there.

Anyone who think R. Bush is worth trading up to #1 probably works for ESPN.

Teams might move up for a QB, but not a running back, if New Orleans won't deal and Tennessee won't deal, or if there are more than 2 teams willing to trade up for a QB then the Texans will get some offers.

Team most likely to move up is Arizona, I think they would like VY to fall but might get nervous. They will be making some calls.

[bigtexxx]

If they graded it wrong, it seems like it'd make more sense for it to be off more than slightly unless they just graded one question wrong. Regardless, we have the NFL saying the report of 6 is false and another league source saying reports of that low a score are false.

I can't believe you still cling to this. Yeah, you're right, Vince's was the only test that mysteriously got regraded. riiiiiight. Too many people have too much to lose if people find out VY made the 6. The Texans draft pick loses value, UT-Austin's academic reputation is humiliated (VY spent 4 years there and could only get a 6?!???), Mack Brown's rep is hurt b/c he's exposed for bringing in buffoons who don't belong on a campus of higher learning (never mind his team's stellar 40% graduation rate...), Vince himself loses millions, etc. You get the point. There was a coverup. VesceySux confirmed it and I applaud him for being able to lose the orange colored glasses many of the rest of you are wearing.

[KAS13]

Nobody is going to trade up to #1 and take R. Bush- be sure of that, the only team in the league that would draft Bush #1 is the Texans because they sit there.

Anyone who think R. Bush is worth trading up to #1 probably works for ESPN.

Teams might move up for a QB, but not a running back, if New Orleans won't deal and Tennessee won't deal, or if there are more than 2 teams willing to trade up for a QB then the Texans will get some offers.

Team most likely to move up is Arizona, I think they would like VY to fall but might get nervous. They will be making some calls.


You're right bro. There's no team in the NFL that would trade up for Reggie Bush. Even better is the fact that you think anyone who thinks Bush is worth trading up for works for ESPN. Well, considering he's rated the #1 prospect in the draft on every single draft board I'm pretty sure he has #1 pick value.

it's all about team needs. Just so happens that QB is the hot position irght now. If Bush isn't worth trading up to #1 for then Vy sure as hell isn't.

[Mr. Clutch]

You're right bro. There's no team in the NFL that would trade up for Reggie Bush. Even better is the fact that you think anyone who thinks Bush is worth trading up for works for ESPN. Well, considering he's rated the #1 prospect in the draft on every single draft board I'm pretty sure he has #1 pick value.

it's all about team needs. Just so happens that QB is the hot position irght now. If Bush isn't worth trading up to #1 for then Vy sure as hell isn't.

Also, no team is going to take Bush at #1 because the Texans won't let them. Only teams Texans would move down for would be teams taking a QB.

[mateo]

But someone always could trade into that spot for a QB. Or use it to leapfrog into the Texans' spot at No. 1, since it's no secret that Houston's coach, Gary Kubiak, wants to draft a runner, Reggie Bush. It would make a lot of sense for the Texans to move down one spot, provided they were sure that the new No. 1 team would draft a QB. Houston would get its guy, plus an extra draft. But Houston couldn't move lower than No. 2 for fear of losing Bush.



This says nothing about anyone trading up to #1 to get Bush. Its about someone trading up to #1 to get Leinhart, and the Texans STILL getting Bush.

In my opinion that seems almost impossible. We'd have to draft Leihart, and trade him to N.O. for the #2 pick, then let N.O. trade Leinhart to the highest bidder. Unless Casserly has some sort of pics of the NO GM with some whores or something, I see this being a Dr. Z pipedream.

[rhester]

You're right bro. There's no team in the NFL that would trade up for Reggie Bush. Even better is the fact that you think anyone who thinks Bush is worth trading up for works for ESPN. Well, considering he's rated the #1 prospect in the draft on every single draft board I'm pretty sure he has #1 pick value.

it's all about team needs. Just so happens that QB is the hot position irght now. If Bush isn't worth trading up to #1 for then Vy sure as hell isn't.

#1 pick value does not equal #1 prospect on a draft board.

If someone makes a trade with the Texans for the #1 pick and selects Reggie Bush I will most humbly apologize for my poor evaluation.

In fact if that happens I would say Somebody is looking down and smiling on the Texans. :)

edit- if the Texans pass on Bush he will slide to #5 at least (Mario Williams or Brick will go #2 to New Orleans- Titans and Jets go for QBs)

[Desert Scar]

When evaluating any player, we need to evaluate a player based on his body of work. We can't single out one or two games and make a fair evaulations. Fact is, Manning has played in 9 playoff games, and he has had good production. Leadership is such a qualitative thing that is hard to quantify. It makes no sense for us to say this guy is a great leader, yet this guy is an average leader. Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, Troy Aikman, Ben Roslithberger, Tom Brady, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Joe Montana, and John Elway have all led teams to Super Bowl wins. Does that make them this elusive "great leader"?

You are right you need the body of work. An Manning's playoff winning record and college record (major bowls, versus SEC) is not impressive. That is a lot of years (12+?) and with lots of pro bowlers and college players who were future pros with him.

For him to be considered as the best ever QB of all time (join discussions of Montana/Elway), he is going to have to have a lot more playoff success. And yes it is partly subjective, but he has not played well in most of his season ending games (I suspect his stats in those terminal games are not great, maybe not even good) and he has been negative in the press about teammates. Of course I can't say with certaintly, but a lot of things suggest he is a greater individual player than he is a team leader. In my subjective opinion of course.

Would I take him over Dilfer, Hostetler, or Roslithberger to win a big game? Of course. But would I take him over Elway, Montana, or Brady to win a big game or make the key plays to save a season, not a chance. (Probably prefer a handfull of others ranging from a Farve in his prime, Aikman, Bradshaw, Staubach, Steve Young, Marino, and maybe a healthy McNabb--can't really speak to your pre 75ish legends)

This says nothing about anyone trading up to #1 to get Bush. Its about someone trading up to #1 to get Leinhart, and the Texans STILL getting Bush.

In my opinion that seems almost impossible. We'd have to draft Leihart, and trade him to N.O. for the #2 pick, then let N.O. trade Leinhart to the highest bidder. Unless Casserly has some sort of pics of the NO GM with some whores or something, I see this being a Dr. Z pipedream.

I agree. The only trade the Texas could do and assure themselves of Bush is at the #2 spot. Since NO doesn't need a QB or RB themselves, I think they will be looking to to take the best non-skilll player (assume Dbrick, M.Williams), or trade down.

[SwoLy-D]

Also, no team is going to take Bush at #1 because the Texans won't let them. Only teams Texans would move down for would be teams taking a QB.
Aye, matey. You, sir, are a GENIUS and dead on.

[KAS13]

#1 pick value does not equal #1 prospect on a draft board.

If someone makes a trade with the Texans for the #1 pick and selects Reggie Bush I will most humbly apologize for my poor evaluation.

In fact if that happens I would say Somebody is looking down and smiling on the Texans. :)

edit- if the Texans pass on Bush he will slide to #5 at least (Mario Williams or Brick will go #2 to New Orleans- Titans and Jets go for QBs)


There won't be a trade because we're picking Bush.

No chance Bush slides to #5. If that were the case we would have traded down. You're seriously underestimating Reggie's value.

[mateo]

Aye, matey. You, sir, are a GENIUS and dead on.


PIRATES ALWAYS KNOW BEST!!!!!!!!

[gucci888]

edit- if the Texans pass on Bush he will slide to #5 at least (Mario Williams or Brick will go #2 to New Orleans- Titans and Jets go for QBs)

No way. If Bush isn't the #1 pick, NOLA will pick him for sure. Rumor is that the Saints really, really like Bush.

[reggietodd]

if the Texans pass on Bush he will slide to #5 at least (Mario Williams or Brick will go #2 to New Orleans- Titans and Jets go for QBs)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[gucci888]

You're right bro. There's no team in the NFL that would trade up for Reggie Bush. Even better is the fact that you think anyone who thinks Bush is worth trading up for works for ESPN. Well, considering he's rated the #1 prospect in the draft on every single draft board I'm pretty sure he has #1 pick value.

it's all about team needs. Just so happens that QB is the hot position irght now. If Bush isn't worth trading up to #1 for then Vy sure as hell isn't.

You say QB is the hot position right now but then you say VY isn't worth trading up for? For a team looking for a QB that isn't in the Top 10, moving up to get VY would definitely be a possibility.

Shouldn't Bush be worth trading up for? He's only been hyped as being the BEST prospect the NFL has ever seen. You would think teams would be all over us right now? So why aren't they? And I don't think it has anything to do with QBs being the hot position right now. It's maybe because RBs aren't worth taking that high. RB is a position where you don't have to have a big name to succeed, Kubiak would be the first one to tell you this.

We still have a lot of holes IMO, I still want the Texans to trade the pick if we can get good value. Would Bush be worth the #1 pick? Probably, but trading down and getting one of the big names (M. Williams, D'Brick, Hawk, VY) plus extra picks would be better.

[Blatz]

Did John McClain say earlier on 610am that he thinks the Titans will take Leinart if he's available? He then went on to talk about if Vince slides he won't get pass Arizona. I'm a little confused about what happened. First he said the Texans were going to draft him. Then he said the Titans were going to draft him. Then he said the Cowboys were going to trade up to get him but then Rich said that he made that up just to see what happened. Then he was back to the Titans not passing him up and now he is saying that the Titans will draft Leinart if he's available and the possibility that Vince will slide to the Cardinals.

What happened?

Also I'm not sure how Leinart will end up at #3 unless NO takes Young and I don't think he was saying that. I think he was saying if they have the choice between Young and Leinart, they will chose Leinart....?

Was Vincemania not as big as I thought it was? I knew it was huge in Houston (or was it just loud) but I also thought it was big nation wide and was hoping it was.

[gucci888]

Did John McClain say earlier on 610am that he thinks the Titans will take Leinart if he's available? He then went on to talk about if Vince slides he won't get pass Arizona. I'm a little confused about what happened. First he said the Texans were going to draft him. Then he said the Titans were going to draft him. Then he said the Cowboys were going to trade up to get him but then Rich said that he made that up just to see what happened. Then he was back to the Titans not passing him up and now he is saying that the Titans will draft Leinart if he's available and the possibility that Vince will slide to the Cardinals.

What happened?

Also I'm not sure how Leinart will end up at #3 unless NO takes Young and I don't think he was saying that. I think he was saying if they have the choice between Young and Leinart, they will chose Leinart....?

Was Vincemania not as big as I thought it was? I knew it was huge in Houston (or was it just loud) but I also thought it was big nation wide and was hoping it was.

Things changed a ton when NOLA signed Brees. It was widely believed that NOLA was selecting Leinart and that the Titans would go w/ VY. Now that there's a chance that Leinart will still be on the board at #3, the Titans would definitely choose him over VY since 1. He is the safer pick 2. He already has 3 years of experience under Chow, which is huge IMO.

[mateo]

Was Vincemania not as big as I thought it was? I knew it was huge in Houston (or was it just loud) but I also thought it was big nation wide and was hoping it was.

Vincemania is huge in Texas. Its not even remotely as big nationwide. Here in NYC, where the draft is being analyzed just as much bc of the Jets #4 pick, people are saying Leinhart or D'Brick. Young is rarely mentioned.

Sorta sucks....I would like Young to get drafted by the Jets...my firm has killer Jets season tickets.

[gr8-1]

What happened?



Was Vincemania not as big as I thought it was? I knew it was huge in Houston (or was it just loud) but I also thought it was big nation wide and was hoping it was.


Things change.



Vincemania was huge in Houston because your native son just led a school to a MNC. And he did so in spectacular fashion beating the "greatest team ever." I would hope any city would go crazy if their native son did this, especially a city with as much civic pride as Houston.

[The Cat]

Now that there's a chance that Leinart will still be on the board at #3, the Titans would definitely choose him over VY since 1. He is the safer pick 2. He already has 3 years of experience under Chow, which is huge IMO.

Not true at all. It's been reported by multiple sources in recent days, including ESPN's John Clayton about 30 minutes ago on Sportscenter, that the Titans are currently leaning to Vince Young even if Leinart is on the board. Leinart has a chance to change that when he works out with the Titans on Monday, but there's a very real chance Vince goes before Leinart.

[Harrisment]

Not true at all. It's been reported by multiple sources in recent days, including ESPN's John Clayton about 30 minutes ago on Sportscenter, that the Titans are currently leaning to Vince Young even if Leinart is on the board. Leinart has a chance to change that when he works out with the Titans on Monday, but there's a very real chance Vince goes before Leinart.

Yeah, I saw the same thing. I think USC's pro-day tomorrow could go a long way in making whats going to happen in the top 5 a little clearer. Vince had a good proday which supposedly shot him back up to a possible top 3 pick. Now Leinart has his chance to impress.

[KAS13]

You say QB is the hot position right now but then you say VY isn't worth trading up for? For a team looking for a QB that isn't in the Top 10, moving up to get VY would definitely be a possibility.

Shouldn't Bush be worth trading up for? He's only been hyped as being the BEST prospect the NFL has ever seen. You would think teams would be all over us right now? So why aren't they? And I don't think it has anything to do with QBs being the hot position right now. It's maybe because RBs aren't worth taking that high. RB is a position where you don't have to have a big name to succeed, Kubiak would be the first one to tell you this.

We still have a lot of holes IMO, I still want the Texans to trade the pick if we can get good value. Would Bush be worth the #1 pick? Probably, but trading down and getting one of the big names (M. Williams, D'Brick, Hawk, VY) plus extra picks would be better.

Actually, I said if you don't think Bush is worht trading for then VY sure as hell isn't. IMHO they both are but when people come in here and say "Bush will fall to #5 if we don't pick him" or "Bush isn't worth trading up for " then i'm going to jump on that. That's just a simply ridiculous comment

[mateo]

Actually, I said if you don't think Bush is worht trading for then VY sure as hell isn't. IMHO they both are but when people come in here and say "Bush will fall to #5 if we don't pick him" or "Bush isn't worth trading up for " then i'm going to jump on that. That's just a simply ridiculous comment

That IS a comical comment.

[gunn]

Not true at all. It's been reported by multiple sources in recent days, including ESPN's John Clayton about 30 minutes ago on Sportscenter, that the Titans are currently leaning to Vince Young even if Leinart is on the board. Leinart has a chance to change that when he works out with the Titans on Monday, but there's a very real chance Vince goes before Leinart.

Agreed. I believe the word is that Chow prefers either Leinart or Cutler, but the rest of the staff thinks Vince is the better choice.

[gr8-1]

Actually, I said if you don't think Bush is worht trading for then VY sure as hell isn't. IMHO they both are but when people come in here and say "Bush will fall to #5 if we don't pick him" or "Bush isn't worth trading up for " then i'm going to jump on that. That's just a simply ridiculous comment


It's hard to detect tone over the net, but just reading this makes you seem like you're still mad at Vince over the rose bowl. Excuse me, Rose bowls.


Agreed. I believe the word is that Chow prefers either Leinart or Cutler, but the rest of the staff thinks Vince is the better choice.


Yeah, and the thing is, how big of a say should Chow have? I can see him being partial to traditional quarterbacks, and I don't have a problem with that.

[gucci888]

Actually, I said if you don't think Bush is worht trading for then VY sure as hell isn't. IMHO they both are but when people come in here and say "Bush will fall to #5 if we don't pick him" or "Bush isn't worth trading up for " then i'm going to jump on that. That's just a simply ridiculous comment

Agreed. IF Bush isn't the #1 pick, look for NOLA to jump all over that.

While Bush is worth trading up for IMO, I find it interesting that we haven't heard about any possible trades for him. That doesn't mean they aren't happening, but I wonder if the Texans are a little suprised at the interest (or lack of) from teams looking to trade up.

But of course, we know the real deals won't start coming in til' the day of the draft.

[KAS13]

[QUOTE=gr8-1]It's hard to detect tone over the net, but just reading this makes you seem like you're still mad at Vince over the rose bowl. Excuse me, Rose bowls.

Dude, seriously get over it. I've given VY props and praise for his performance in the Rose Bowl. I've said if a team takes Cutler ahead of him that they're crazy and that there's no way he should slip out of the top 10. What more do you want? I'm not a USC fan so why in the world would be mad at Young. All he did was make my prediction of a game wrong. I even said he played one of the best National Championship games of all time. If that isn't enough for you then that's you're issue not mine.

I wish Young the best in the NFl unless he's playing the Texans or the Lions. If he's on the lions 9possible) I'll be rooting for the guy. I have some questions about his game but if I had to wager money on his career I'd at least bet he's as good as Culpepper. The only thing i owuld ever get mad at is if the Texans drafted Young. If we passed on Bush, Brick or Williams to take Young then I'd be very angry at our franchise. Nothing against VY but I think all the Carr doubters will see what he can do with a great offense and upgraded line this season.

Hopefully this sums everything up in a nutshell about my feelings on VY. I've said it so many times but now hopefully I'll never have to repeat it again.

[KAS13]

That IS a comical comment.


Mine or the other person's?

[KAS13]

Agreed. IF Bush isn't the #1 pick, look for NOLA to jump all over that.

While Bush is worth trading up for IMO, I find it interesting that we haven't heard about any possible trades for him. That doesn't mean they aren't happening, but I wonder if the Texans are a little suprised at the interest (or lack of) from teams looking to trade up.

But of course, we know the real deals won't start coming in til' the day of the draft.


I honestly think the market is pretty dry. Despite having elite prospects available (in most seasons Bush, Leinart and Young would all be #1 pick worth) teams are content with where they are at. If NY hadn't gotten Pennington to rescrutcture and added another QB then I thgink they would be all over leinart since they were enamored with him supposedly.

This being said, you can sit at 3 or 4 and get one of these guys. I don't really think the Jets will pick a QB unless Matt falls in their lap but you never know. The Titans will take Matt or VY. The Cutler hype is over IMO. FA has drastcially altered this draft.

[gucci888]

I have some questions about his game but if I had to wager money on his career I'd at least bet he's as good as Culpepper. The only thing i owuld ever get mad at is if the Texans drafted Young. If we passed on Bush, Brick or Williams to take Young then I'd be very angry at our franchise. Nothing against VY but I think all the Carr doubters will see what he can do with a great offense and upgraded line this season.


So you think VY will be as good as Culpepper at least, but you would get mad if we drafted him? Don't get me wrong, Bush/Brick/Williams would be great picks as well.

[CreepyFloyd]

VY, but they will probably take Bush and VY will come back to haunt the Texans

[KAS13]

So you think VY will be as good as Culpepper at least, but you would get mad if we drafted him? Don't get me wrong, Bush/Brick/Williams would be great picks as well.

Yeah. I think Carr can be a really good QB as well (a star just like Daunte) with this team they are putting around him. We will have two really good Wr's (Johnson, Moulds), great #3's in Armstrong, Mathis and Walter and two perfect TE's 9Bruener for Blocking and Putzier for receiving). Flanigan was a great pickup for our OL. We'll address the right side in the draft (I think that's obvious by our offseason moves).

DD is hurt too much. However, if we don't trade him then we have another weapon for David to use. Bush can do so many things for this team. He ives us that homerun threat that we lacked out of the backfield.

[mateo]

VY will come back to haunt the Texans

I haven't heard that yet in this thread. :D

[gunn]

We will have two really good Wr's (Johnson, Moulds), great #3's in Armstrong, Mathis and Walter and two perfect TE's 9Bruener for Blocking and Putzier for receiving). Flanigan was a great pickup for our OL. We'll address the right side in the draft (I think that's obvious by our offseason moves).

DD is hurt too much. However, if we don't trade him then we have another weapon for David to use. Bush can do so many things for this team. He ives us that homerun threat that we lacked out of the backfield.

Ladies and Gentlemen, your HOUSTON RAMS!!!!!!!!! errrr...............ST. LOUIS TEXANS errrrr...................nevermind. :p

[SamFisher]

Vincemania is huge in Texas. Its not even remotely as big nationwide. Here in NYC, where the draft is being analyzed just as much bc of the Jets #4 pick, people are saying Leinhart or D'Brick. Young is rarely mentioned.

Sorta sucks....I would like Young to get drafted by the Jets...my firm has killer Jets season tickets.

Really? I was watching the JETS report or whatever on SNY last weekend and they were doing "man in the street" type interviews about who they should draft - Vince Young's name was mentioned more than anyone else. The reason why nobody in the newspapers really speculates about it is because they won't draft him, -- they put their QB eggs in re-tread Patrick Ramsey's basket and are trying to salvage Pennington in a typical Jets move.

[KAS13]

Ladies and Gentlemen, your HOUSTON RAMS!!!!!!!!! errrr...............ST. LOUIS TEXANS errrrr...................nevermind. :p


I actually said that and made exact player comparisons pages ago in this thread. We really are.

[FireBlizzard90]

anybody know anything from the USC pro day?

i hope VY doesnt get drafted by the titan. cuz then we would have to play him 2 times a year especially if he turns out to be the best player of this draft

[VesceySux]

Vincemania is huge in Texas. Its not even remotely as big nationwide. Here in NYC, where the draft is being analyzed just as much bc of the Jets #4 pick, people are saying Leinhart or D'Brick. Young is rarely mentioned.

Then you hear or read random things like this sidebar item from Sporting News:

Sports Talk with Dylan McDermott (an excerpt)
TSN: Do you have a favorite athlete you like to watch?
McDermott: I guess my favorite all-time athlete is Muhammad Ali. My favorite current athlete... wow. Probably Vince Young.

[mateo]

Then you hear or read random things like this sidebar item from Sporting News:

Sports Talk with Dylan McDermott (an excerpt)
TSN: Do you have a favorite athlete you like to watch?
McDermott: I guess my favorite all-time athlete is Muhammad Ali. My favorite current athlete... wow. Probably Vince Young.

I think Samfisher has it dead on....the media, the experts, the draftniks...their portrayal of Vince is different than the average Rose Bowl viewer who is still saying "Wow."

Still, I have been lurking around the Jets, Saints, and Titans boards and most of the talk is Leinhart, Leinhart, Leinhart.

[Harrisment]

anybody know anything from the USC pro day?



It's tomorrow.

[McGrady]

It's tomorrow.

Time?

[Jrazz]

I do hope Vince gets drafted by Tennessee, if we pass on him. Good team and organization. Real good coach. Air NcNair, long time friend and mentor to help him. Good offensive coach in Chow. AANNNDD, we get to play him twice a year. Each of those games will be huge fun.

If not the Titans, then the Jets for Vince. Vince would be the biggest thing to hit New York sports, ever. The press and fan interest in new York sports is huge and much bigger than in the past, especially the way past. I would have a lot of fun watching Vince with the Jets.

The answer to the original question, 145 pages ago, is take Vince. My prediction for Reggie Bush is that he will mature into Ki-Jana Carter. I can see the next six months so clear. A training camp nagging hamstring strain. Exibition season pulled muscle after playing hurt. Season starts with Vince on the cover of Sports Illustrated as the new Michael Jordon of the NFL, and Reggie Bush on IR.

[gucci888]

I do hope Vince gets drafted by Tennessee, if we pass on him. Good team and organization. Real good coach. Air NcNair, long time friend and mentor to help him. Good offensive coach in Chow. AANNNDD, we get to play him twice a year. Each of those games will be huge fun.

The Titans would be a great situation for VY IMO. A year or two under McNair will help a lot, a career under Chow could do absolute wonders. The guy is an absolute genius and while he would probably prefer a pro-style QB like Leinart, Chow could do some amazing things for VY, which is kinda scary for Texan fans.

If not the Titans, then the Jets for Vince. Vince would be the biggest thing to hit New York sports, ever. The press and fan interest in new York sports is huge and much bigger than in the past, especially the way past. I would have a lot of fun watching Vince with the Jets.

The Jets are the wild card in this draft IMO. They restructured Pennington's deal and signed Ramsey so you would think they are out of the running for a QB. They could use Mario or D'Brick, but hoping for a injury-free season from Pennington is a quite a risk IMO, especially if they get a shot at VY and/or Leinart.

[Zac D]

The answer to the original question, 145 pages ago, is take Vince. My prediction for Reggie Bush is that he will mature into Ki-Jana Carter. I can see the next six months so clear. A training camp nagging hamstring strain. Exibition season pulled muscle after playing hurt. Season starts with Vince on the cover of Sports Illustrated as the new Michael Jordon of the NFL, and Reggie Bush on IR.

I'm not a huge Reggie Bush fan, but I do follow Penn State, and Ki-Jana never ran like Reggie.

[gr8-1]

I have this feeling that VY will be a Raider.

[mateo]

Season starts with Vince on the cover of Sports Illustrated as the new Michael Jordon of the NFL, and Reggie Bush on IR.

Did Jordan spend his first season on the bench with no pt?

[Major]

The Titans would be a great situation for VY IMO. A year or two under McNair will help a lot, a career under Chow could do absolute wonders. The guy is an absolute genius and while he would probably prefer a pro-style QB like Leinart, Chow could do some amazing things for VY, which is kinda scary for Texan fans.


I disagree - Vince needs a less established OC to be successful. A coordinator like Chow is considered brilliant because of his system and his ability to call plays within that system. Vince needs an OC that's willing to build a system around him, rather than fit him into a system designed around a Matt Leinart-type QB. Chow is certainly creative, but ihis offense is centered around his system. Atlanta seems to be finally learning this lesson with Vick - there are rumors they are moving away from the West Coast next season and looking more at a spread offense used in a lot of college systems with mobile QBs (Texas, for example).

[jopatmc]

1. If the Jets had the number 1 choice, and could choose between either VY, Bush or any other player in the draft, who would they choose?

2. If the Jets were going to make a trade for the rights to draft the player of their choice, what would they be willing to give up?

Anybody know?

[swilkins]

...
The answer to the original question, 145 pages ago, is take Vince. My prediction for Reggie Bush is that he will mature into Ki-Jana Carter. I can see the next six months so clear. A training camp nagging hamstring strain. Exibition season pulled muscle after playing hurt. Season starts with Vince on the cover of Sports Illustrated as the new Michael Jordon of the NFL, and Reggie Bush on IR.

I just had this sudden urge to go to the restroom and take a crap.

Not just any crap - - - A Jrazz.

:eek:

[mateo]

1. If the Jets had the number 1 choice, and could choose between either VY, Bush or any other player in the draft, who would they choose?

2. If the Jets were going to make a trade for the rights to draft the player of their choice, what would they be willing to give up?

Anybody know?

Seriously, guys....if the Jets had the #1 pick in the draft...you really think they would pick Vince? It blows my mind how myopic people can be about this.

Vince is great.
He may be a great player.
But no way in hell he will be drafted before Bush or Leinhart.

[The Cat]

Seriously, guys....if the Jets had the #1 pick in the draft...you really think they would pick Vince? It blows my mind how myopic people can be about this.

Vince is great.
He may be a great player.
But no way in hell he will be drafted before Bush or Leinhart.

ESPN's John Clayton reported on Friday that the Titans currently ranked Vince ahead of Leinart, and said that many other teams did as well. Profootballtalk.com - the site so many of you frequently source - has Vince at 2 and Leinart at 3 in its latest mock draft.

There's almost no way Vince goes ahead of Bush, but there's a very, very real chance - perhaps even a probability - that Vince goes ahead of Leinart. There might not have been a month ago, but things have slowly picked back up.

[mateo]

I would say that Bush's 4.33 in the 40, his 40.5 vertical, etc has pretty much ended the debate in this circus of joy.

[gr8-1]

I would say that Bush's 4.33 in the 40, his 40.5 vertical, etc has pretty much ended the debate in this circus of joy.


It was over before it started. If Bush had run a 4.5 it still wouldn't have mattered. He's the #1 pick.

[The Real Shady]

It was over before it started. If Bush had run a 4.5 it still wouldn't have mattered. He's the #1 pick.

If he ran a 4.5 he would not be #1. That would pose serious questions whether his speed would translate to the NFL.

[Nice Rollin]

TRADE TO GET MORE PICKS...BUT THEY WONT DO THAT SO BUSH

[reggietodd]

I would say that Bush's 4.33 in the 40, his 40.5 vertical, etc has pretty much ended the debate in this circus of joy.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.

[gucci888]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.

BTW, weren't you the one calling UT fans classless for saying "I told you so" after the Rose Bowl game? The irony. :p

Sure looks like Bush is gonna be the guy though, his numbers today were pretty sick. Bush has the tools to be one hell of a player. Carr better step it up this season, there aren't any excuses leftover IMO.

[mateo]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.

I was kinda hoping it would hit 3000 posts. Also, it makes for a great source of draft information on Young, Leinhart, and Cutler.

[KingCheetah]

I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so".

Yeah, you've really gone out on a limb telling clutchfans that the Texans may select Bush.

Now if you went out and hyped someone out of left field for the number #1 pick like Santonio Holmes and the Texans took him then you could brag.

But please keep fighting the good fight -- if nothing else -- it's entertaining. :D

[SamFisher]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/mav3434/Dramaqueen.jpg

[gr8-1]

Seriously, guys....if the Jets had the #1 pick in the draft...you really think they would pick Vince? It blows my mind how myopic people can be about this.

Vince is great.
He may be a great player.
But no way in hell he will be drafted before Bush or Leinhart.


I would think they would lean towards Reggie, but I don't know for sure. What answer are you looking for here?


Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.


You act like you were the only one that said this though. Everyone, save 5 or 6 posters, have said that Bush should/would be the man.

[jopatmc]

Then if the Jets would take Bush #1, would the Titans take Bush #1 if they had the pick?

And if so, then what would those teams be willing to give up to get their hands on Bush?

Especially now that his stock is through the roof and he looks like Superman, I would think that if the Titans or Jets really wanted him, they would be willing to up the anty. What do you guys think?

[mateo]

Then if the Jets would take Bush #1, would the Titans take Bush #1 if they had the pick?

And if so, then what would those teams be willing to give up to get their hands on Bush?

Especially now that his stock is through the roof and he looks like Superman, I would think that if the Titans or Jets really wanted him, they would be willing to up the anty. What do you guys think?

I would think that the Texans might trade with the Jets but there is no way they give Reggie Bush to the Titans BECAUSE HE MAY COME BACK TO HAUNT THE TEXANS FOR YEARS TO COME..... :D :D :D :D :D

[Blatz]

Reggie just said on ABC13 that he is already looking at houses here in Houston.

EDIT: I said FOX26 but I meant ABC13

[JuLiO-R-]

Reggie just said on ABC13 that he is already looking at houses here in Houston.

EDIT: I said FOX26 but I meant ABC13

Here's that video. I captured it myself. :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ia7TM3fZwZs

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ia7TM3fZwZs"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ia7TM3fZwZs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Groogrux]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.

How many times have you been done with this thread? I think this marks the sixth time.

I'm pumped about Bush. Our offense should be very exciting to watch with all the additions we've made or will make this offseason. Take Bush #1, use the rest of the first day picks on defense, and please God, don't let VY go to the Titans or Cowboys.

[Dubious]

It is still not out of the realm of possibility that the Jets would trade up to #1 for Reggie, They need to think about replacing Curtis Martin and they play in the #1 media center of the world where they compete with not only the Giants but the damn Yankees.

If they did it would probably be the first Jet's pick ever that didn't get booed.

Hell Reggie this thread has 25 more days of life!

[Harrisment]

Here's that video. I captured it myself. :D

Very cool, thanks Julio! :)

[SamFisher]

Why'd they have them run 40's on a running track, wouldn't grass or turf be more appropriate, which I believe is what everybody else uses right?

[rhester]

Reggie 'the freak' Bush

At this point all I can say is even Charlie C. can't mess up this draft.

Go Texans

[swilkins]

After Bush impressed everyone with his strength and athleticism, don't expect a trade.

I wasn't surprised with the speed and jumping ability, but lifting 225 24 times is amazing.

[jopatmc]

I would think that the Texans might trade with the Jets but there is no way they give Reggie Bush to the Titans BECAUSE HE MAY COME BACK TO HAUNT THE TEXANS FOR YEARS TO COME..... :D :D :D :D :D


I can see the possiblity of drafting Bush and then waiting to see if VY falls past Tennessee. If VY is still there for the Jets, I could see the possibility of us trading him to New York if the right combination of picks was there, maybe their #1, their #1 next year, and maybe couple of 3rd rounders or something like that. Let Bush go to NY and play Barry Sanders while the Jets stink it up and we get a good pick again next year. I'm sorry but Bush or no Bush, the Jets are going to be bad next year. We get one year to pump Carr's statistics to high heaven and then trade him for more picks, players. Then we could possibly come away with Vince Young, Adrian Peterson, and a whole slew of other talent on both sides of the ball.

Remember, running backs are not the crucial element of a Broncos offense. Anybody remember Olandis Gary (I think that's how you spell it). 3rd string running back, runs for 1000 yards when the top 2 rbs go down with injury.

[gucci888]

At this point all I can say is even Charlie C. can't mess up this draft.



How dare you underestimate CC. :)

Like most have said, Bush put on quite a performance. The 40-time was better than I thought, but we all knew how fast he is. The 24 reps is amazing!!

Question: Why are they calling it astroturf? Not to take anything away from Bush, bur running on a track w/ spikes is a HUGE difference from turf.

[pgabriel]

so did lienart throw and was it impressive?

[Stevierebel]

Reggie 'the freak' Bush

At this point all I can say is even Charlie C. can't mess up this draft.

Go Texans

I agree with this quote. It's like celebrity jeopardy on SNL.

The final jeopardy question for April 29th is:
Who should the Texans pick with the number 1 overall pick in the first round?
Please Texans just write Reggie Bush on your card and turn it in.

With Casserly's track record if he does just this, then they should give the Texans an A no matter how the rest of the draft goes. Pluses and minuses will be given based on the second round and two third round picks.

[swilkins]

...

Remember, running backs are not the crucial element of a Broncos offense. Anybody remember Olandis Gary (I think that's how you spell it). 3rd string running back, runs for 1000 yards when the top 2 rbs go down with injury.

I agree that Denver has not needed the highest rated running back to make their system successful, but Kubiak's mouth has to be watering on the possibilities in having Reggie Bush. Denver has done a great job in drafting late round picks, because they are a perennial playoff team.

Expect Kubiak to push for Bush. We have picked up some decent players in free agency, which gives us more options in the draft. Having 4 picks in 66 is going to be huge as well, barring a Casstastrophe.

[KAS13]

I agree with the poster who said we should end this thread or change the title. We all know Bush is going to be our pick so now it just becomes a bashing forum. I wouldl ike to see a draft info section so we can moniter were these guys are going and how they do in private workouts.

It's over now. Let's be excited that we are getting an amazing player in Buis h and wish VY the best whereever he gets drafted.

[gucci888]

I agree with the poster who said we should end this thread or change the title. We all know Bush is going to be our pick so now it just becomes a bashing forum. I wouldl ike to see a draft info section so we can moniter were these guys are going and how they do in private workouts.

It's over now. Let's be excited that we are getting an amazing player in Buis h and wish VY the best whereever he gets drafted.

Ya'll are wanting to end this thread but it's ya'll that are keeping this thread going with pointless posts. Why do you keep coming back in this thread if you truly believe the debate is over?

It sure seems like that Bush will be the pick but there is still stuff that can be discussed.

[Master Baiter]

.....there is still stuff that can be discussed.
No there isn't. After almost 3000 posts in this one thread, it has all been gone over multiple times. All there is left to do is wait for the draft. Personally, I cannot wait until the damn thing is over with so that it doesn't have to be discussed anymore.

[gucci888]

No there isn't. After almost 3000 posts in this one thread, it has all been gone over multiple times. All there is left to do is wait for the draft. Personally, I cannot wait until the damn thing is over with so that it doesn't have to be discussed anymore.

Okay then, so I'll ask you the same question, why do you keep coming into this tread if there is nothing to discuss?

[KAS13]

Ya'll are wanting to end this thread but it's ya'll that are keeping this thread going with pointless posts. Why do you keep coming back in this thread if you truly believe the debate is over?

It sure seems like that Bush will be the pick but there is still stuff that can be discussed.


I was talking about this particular thread or at least changing the title. I said that i still want to discuss VY, Bush, Cutler and a bunch of other guys but this was a Bush vs. Young thread and since the debate is over now (in terms of who we'll pick) I figured it best to change it up.

However, if someone doesn't do that then this is the thread i have to go to to get updated info that i'm looking for. That was my point.

[Desert Scar]

1st:On Bush's workout. From the Texans perspective I got what I was looking for. No question, athletically, Bush is quite special and is among the elite draftees at RBs from the last decade or so (not going to say ahead of Sanders or Dickerson or Jackson, but you can argue you can make an argument he is the best RB prospect in terms of upside in recent memory). No question you can select Bush and with a strait face say I think he could be a hall of famer, a great player. He has the gifts. I still have lots of questions about him as the workhorse or every down feature of an offense, but the upside is certainly there. Conceivably he could be in the do it all multithreat mold of Faulk, but perhaps even more of a home run hitter. Now I don't think he will be better than Faulk (who according to his first NFL coach is the football smartest and hardest working player he has been around), I am just saying the athletic potential is there.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked up at this point. I fought the good fight in this thread and at least now I can say, "I told you so". This thread should have never become the epic it now is IMO.

I think the question of the thread is who SHOULD the Texans draft. Not who WILL the Texans draft. The should will take years to determine, and hinges on how Bush, Carr and VY's careers go. I still take VY as a potential frachise QB to build my team around because I simply think he will be better than Carr or any other QB in the draft pool and R. Bush is a running back, but I certainly understand the position of going with Bush and Carr and it is plainly obvious this is what the Texans are going to do. We will see whether it was the right move, the draft day isn't going to tell us this, history will.

so did lienart throw and was it impressive?

I don't think it was. Very average arm. Not in the class of Cutler, or even VY. ML also sailed a few balls. The fact ML was not great throwing (by most accounts) and VY was in a structured workout pretty much blows the the whole idea (thrown around here trying to discredit VY's workout) it was a no-brainer for VY to excell in that format and anyone could do it. Below includes quotes from ML.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2394532
As for Leinart? He displayed some athleticism by turning in a 37-inch vertical jump. He completed 36 of 45 passes by unofficial count, with three drops by his receivers. His accuracy was good, not great, and his arm strength was adequate. It appeared, at times, that he aimed the ball a bit too much and some balls sailed on him. Leinart conceded afterwards that he probably pressed a little.

"In situations like these," Leinart said, "I think you tend to overdo it. You know, you try to throw a ball too hard, and it goes high, or you try to be too fine with your passes. I think I started off too tight."


Doesn't sound like a no brainer easy situation to perform now does it.

Seriously, guys....if the Jets had the #1 pick in the draft...you really think they would pick Vince? It blows my mind how myopic people can be about this.

Vince is great.
He may be a great player.
But no way in hell he will be drafted before Bush or Leinhart.

ESPN's John Clayton reported on Friday that the Titans currently ranked Vince ahead of Leinart, and said that many other teams did as well. Profootballtalk.com - the site so many of you frequently source - has Vince at 2 and Leinart at 3 in its latest mock draft.

There's almost no way Vince goes ahead of Bush, but there's a very, very real chance - perhaps even a probability - that Vince goes ahead of Leinart. There might not have been a month ago, but things have slowly picked back up.

I think VY and ML are neck and neck to a lot of teams, and different teams have their choices. It would be an easy choice for me, VY has the stronger arm, much better athlete, equally poised, equally unflappable leader--I'd take this package over ML's experience and knowledge of a pro style offense, but it will depend on what the drafting team thinks. I really doubt either player last by 4, or that VY last past 7. My gut is Tenn takes VY at #3 unless someone (Oak, NYJ) skips them via NO, but who knows for sure. The draft is entirely unpredictable except Hou takes Bush #1 because NO has so many options and doesn't need a QB now.

This is pretty much all I have to say about the matter. Good luck to the Texans and VY whether he goes, please no Tenn : ( .

[KAS13]

Leinart's workout was decribed as pretty good on ESPN. Definitely not mind blowing and not bad either. I don't think it's that big of a suprise either. I've never thought Leinart had a cannon for an arm. I think he was proably over compensating a lot and probably caused him to sail those passes. I think his workout just made the question of what QB goes first cloudier.

[mateo]

Good luck to the Texans and VY whether he goes, please no Tenn : ( .

You got that right!

[ROXRAN]

I'm over here in Nashville, and all signs from 104.5 "the zone" (equivalent to star610 with silly transition commercial spots into the sports talk) point to VY, especially by the showing from ML...Actually it seems a two way race since Cutler is to Nashville what Young is to Houston...

BTW, everyone is absolutely raving about Bush. Even in Nashville...

[Rocket Fan]

..Actually it seems a two way race since Cutler is to Nashville what Young is to Houston...

B..

Think so? Being in Nashville, it doesn't seem like that to me at all. Cutler isn't the hometown guy. . he's from Indiana. and all that.

[Rocket Fan]

What is considered Leinarts main selling point other than that he won a lot of games?

He has the weakest arm of the three, and least mobility it seems..

but I guess he has ran the closest to a pro style offense. is that his main selling point?

[ROXRAN]

Think so? Being in Nashville, it doesn't seem like that to me at all. Cutler isn't the hometown guy. . he's from Indiana. and all that.

But he is a Vandy guy, and that is a big thing...

[Rocket Fan]

roxran.. true, but from what I've seen as a student.. nashville people dont exactly support vandy all that much..

so there would never be outrage over not drafting him. like with the texas situation

[Rocket Fan]

people make a big deal out of these times...

is a tenth of a second really going to make that much of a difference in the success of a player?

[gr8-1]

roxran.. true, but from what I've seen as a student.. nashville people dont exactly support vandy all that much..

so there would never be outrage over not drafting him. like with the texas situation


True, but Vandy has never given Nashville anything to cheer about. I'd bet alot of people wouldn't even know that Vandy is in Nashville.

[Groogrux]

John Clayton said this morning that he believes that VY will be taken before Leinart.

But I'm done with this thread. :)

[KingCheetah]

John Clayton said this morning that he believes that VY will be taken before Leinart.

But I'm done with this thread. :)

I agree that VY will be taken before Lion heart, but I must add that I too am done with this thread. :)

[MadMax]

But he is a Vandy guy, and that is a big thing...

would be a lot bigger if he were a Volunteer.

[SamFisher]

I agree that VY will be taken before Lion heart, but I must add that I too am done with this thread. :)

your resignation is NOT ACCEPTED.

[mateo]

would be a lot bigger if he were a Volunteer.

Thats the sad truth.

[Luckyazn]

Forget the VY or Bush talkss

Is either draft BUSH or trade for more picks


VY mite not even be a TOP 5 pick anymore or a Top 10 like some might say.
so why would the Texans waste a #1 pick on him?

[gucci888]

Forget the VY or Bush talkss

Is either draft BUSH or trade for more picks


VY mite not even be a TOP 5 pick anymore or a Top 10 like some might say.
so why would the Texans waste a #1 pick on him?


ESPN's John Clayton reported on Friday that the Titans currently ranked Vince ahead of Leinart, and said that many other teams did as well. Profootballtalk.com - the site so many of you frequently source - has Vince at 2 and Leinart at 3 in its latest mock draft.

[Fegwu]

Is either draft BUSH or trade for more picks


Trade the pick and stock up.

I hope some team out there is in love with Bush or Young or Leinert enough to trade up. This is the wise route and safe one as well.

[gr8-1]

Forget the VY or Bush talkss

Is either draft BUSH or trade for more picks


VY mite not even be a TOP 5 pick anymore or a Top 10 like some might say.
so why would the Texans waste a #1 pick on him?

second verse same as the first,

[askball]

Here's a Bush article...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/feature/featureVideo?page=landofthestars

LOS ANGELES -- With good buddy Nick Lachey hanging out at the Final Four in Indianapolis over the weekend, Matt Leinart likely had to dig into his electronic phone book, a directory that includes the cell phone numbers of many of Hollywood's hippest young stars, to find someone with whom to chill at a local off-campus burger joint following Sunday afternoon's tedious audition for NFL scouts.


On the other hand, all former Southern California tailback and Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush had to do for close companionship following the daunting pro day workouts was stroll across campus.

Or, more accurately, try to.


Encircled by as many as 200 fans at times as he exited the workout, Bush found it harder to navigate the quarter-mile walk between Howard Jones practice field and Heritage Hall, where the USC football offices are headquartered, than he did to romp through Pac-10 defenses. The electrifying tailback, who posted an NCAA career-record 7.3 yards per carry and averaged 10.4 yards per touch while scoring in every way imaginable, couldn't progress more than a few feet at a time without having to slow down to sign a T-shirt, a miniature Trojans helmet, a glossy, 8-by-10 color photo and even a hot dog wrapper.

LAND OF THE STARS
USC has been a dominant figure on the college scene the past three seasons. Now, many of those key performers find themselves on the verge of NFL careers. ESPN.com went to USC's pro day to check out the Trojans.

Befitting his position as the quarterback of a two-time national championship team and a former Heisman Trophy honoree, a guy with whom the "Who's Who" of La-La Land yearns to be photographed and who unabashedly covets the opportunity to relocate his game to Broadway with the New York Jets, Leinart clearly remains the glamour guy of coach Pete Carroll's all-star cast of draft prospects. Just as obvious, though, as the crowd of hero-worshippers snaked its way behind Bush late Sunday afternoon is that the tailback is a player who people thoroughly enjoy being around.


Leinart had to reach out and touch someone for dinner on Sunday evening. Bush just had to reach a couple of feet, scribble his name onto whatever was thrust in front of him, and his fans ate it up.


"The guy is like a Pied Piper," said agent Joel Segal. "This happens everywhere he goes. OK, maybe not to this extent, sure. But there is just something likable about him. There's sort of a common touch and people can relate to that."


Want reinforcement for the "common touch" theory that Segal espouses? How about this: On Monday, Bush threw out the first pitch of Opening Day for the San Diego Padres. Not the Los Angeles Dodgers, not the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (or whatever they're called this season), but his hometown San Diego Padres, the least conspicuous of Southern California's three Major League Baseball franchises.


Given the vested interest that Segal possesses in pumping his client's Q-rating, there is an element of the self-serving in his Pied Piper assessment. But that doesn't make it any less valid or make Bush, who seems to relish the personal contact with his fan base even as he plays his don't-worry-be-happy tune all the way to the bank, any less genuine.


It would be hyperbole to suggest Bush is a kind of Everyman. Still, there is a naturally engaging quality about the player who will be the first prospect chosen in the draft on April 29 that draws everybody to him. Bush has the aura of an early-day Muhammad Ali about him. Watching Segal and marketing impresario Mike Ornstein unsuccessfully attempt to buffer Bush from the crowd of autograph seekers on Sunday, one was reminded of how Ali's entourage of security people and hangers-on once tried to shield him in the same way.


Indeed, the polished Leinart is still a paparazzi magnet, a guy possessed of movie star looks and with the facility of being able to bounce from night spot to night spot, and to mix seamlessly with his high-profile friends. It was once noted of New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady that men wanted to be him and women wanted to be with him. His fiancée aside, Leinart is a similar-type personage here, a white-hot star in the galaxy.


But it's Bush who will be drafted first, who has proven just as popular, and who doesn't exactly shy from the spotlight, either. In this land of the stars, the tailback some league scouts have compared to Pro Football Hall of Fame member Gale Sayers is no supernova in the SoCal football firmament. Nor is he a shrinking violet.


"I like being around people and, just like you saw on the way over here, people like me," said Bush, as he slumped into a well-stuffed sofa in a Heritage Hall lounge. "If I'm just walking around campus, people will come up and want to talk, whether it's about football or whatever. I like that folks don't feel put off by me or by my [celebrity], and that everyone knows I'm still approachable. That's part of the fun of this, and it hasn't gotten old, at least not yet. I don't mind being the out-front guy that the media is coming to with the hard questions. I'm a stand-up guy in that way. I'm battle tested and, the way I see it, that's just going to help me [in the NFL]. I just like being around people. I like being seen as a real person."


Indeed, in a city where virtually everything harbors some feeling of the ersatz, there appears to be nothing phony or contrived about Bush or his public persona.


Sure, he is quick with a grin and with a strong handshake, knows what camera to peer into, and speaks in complete sentences. But his is more a public relations savvy than a public veneer, and nothing Bush does seems rehearsed or choreographed. He is at ease, and puts others at ease, and his natural confidence comes across more as candor than cockiness.


"He's just a guy," said Houston Texans rookie coach Gary Kubiak, a former Denver Broncos offensive coordinator who likely already is conjuring up devious ways to get the ball into Bush's hands, "who lights up a room when he walks in."


Of course, the Texans, who will play host to Bush on Thursday and probably will commence contract negotiations during the visit, are going to be paying an eight-figure bonus and upward of $25 million guaranteed for the scintillating Bush to light up the scoreboard. It is far more important for the franchise that Bush delivers touchdowns, not just pithy and profound sound bites, certainly. But as one Texans official acknowledged over the weekend, Houston will get "a new face for the franchise" when it chooses Bush, and that is a key component the team has lacked.


It's not as if the Texans have trouble filling Reliant Stadium. But at some point the knowledgeable fans will no longer accept the franchise's expansion status as an excuse for losing, and the Texans will have to either start winning or present some promise of doing so. Bush not only represents the promise of better things to come on the field, but is a persuasive enough spokesman to convince long-suffering partisans in virtually every appearance he makes that the playoffs are in the offing.


Four-year veteran quarterback David Carr, the top overall choice in the 2002 draft and the first prospect ever chosen by the Texans, has never quite embraced the role as franchise pitchman. As good as Kubiak is, and as well received as he has been, the longtime NFL assistant doesn't qualify as a quote machine. The team's few other stars -- tailback Domanick Davis, wide receiver Andre Johnson and cornerback Dunta Robinson -- are polite young men but perform better on the field than in front of a Minicam. In Bush, the Texans will have a burgeoning star as adroit at identifying camera angles as he is finding cutback angles.


One more indicator of the pervasive sense that Bush is The Natural incarnate, except on the gridiron instead of a baseball diamond, and in every sense: Adidas, the onetime athletic football and apparel giant that had all but fallen off the radar screen and is now re-emerging as a power, is ardently pursuing Bush with a giant endorsement proposal. The footwear part of their pitch alone, sources told ESPN.com, is said to be worth $2 million for the first two years.


Making money (and plenty of it), of course, is just part of what Bush wants to accomplish.


Well-grounded, the product of a two-parent household, a regular churchgoer who was reared with strong family values, and a guy who hasn't had his head turned completely around by his own celebrity in a city filled with stars, Bush hopes to make a winner out of the Texans, too. That will be no small feat, since Houston has never won more than seven contests, and averaged just 4½ victories in the first four years of existence.


Hardly accustomed to losing -- the Trojans were 37-2 in his three seasons -- Bush will have to reconcile that the NFL will be a step up in competition but two steps back in terms of his personal win-loss record. That doesn't mean, though, he plans to accept defeat as gracefully as he entertains the media.


"What people are going to see," Bush said, "is a guy who wants to be the hardest worker on the field and off the field. To me, being the first [overall] pick carries a price, for me, not just the team that drafts me. I've always wanted to force people to look at me, to make the big play that turns everyone's head, to be the guy who makes fans jump out of their seats. I guess, in a way, I just want to do it all."


That's precisely what he did during a USC career in which the dynamic playmaker posted 6,617 all-purpose yards, averaged 10.4 yards per touch, and scored on runs, receptions, kickoff returns and punt returns. Bush registered more than 2,000 all-purpose yards in each of his last two seasons. While it remains to be seen how he and the overachieving Davis can fit into the same offense, there is little doubt that Kubiak will divine ways to get the ball to Bush in space, where his quickness and elusiveness will present all kinds of matchup problems for opposition defenses.


Said Leinart: "He's just such an accomplished and versatile playmaker that, no matter where he goes on the field, he'll command plenty of attention."


If last Sunday is any indication, that's already the case off the field, too.

[SamFisher]

"The guy is like a Pied Piper," said agent Joel Segal. "This happens everywhere he goes. OK, maybe not to this extent, sure. But there is just something likable about him. There's sort of a common touch and people can relate to that."

LOLLLERSKATES

Jerry mcguire wannabe trying to lessen the sting of Houston football fans missing out on charismatic hometown hero.

[swilkins]

Here's a Bush article...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/feature/featureVideo?page=landofthestars

...

While it remains to be seen how he and the overachieving Davis can fit into the same offense, there is little doubt that Kubiak will divine ways to get the ball to Bush in space, where his quickness and elusiveness will present all kinds of matchup problems for opposition defenses.

...

I don't see a problem here.

[pgabriel]

so bush's agent now writes for espn. what was the purpose of that article, he should have just sent that to mcnair, casserly, and kubiak.

[KAS13]

so bush's agent now writes for espn. what was the purpose of that article, he should have just sent that to mcnair, casserly, and kubiak.


Can some people not deal with any positive articles about Bush? It's just a question. It seems every time a positive article comes out about him someone has something negative to say ( VY supporters).

[pgabriel]

Can some people not deal with any positive articles about Bush? It's just a question. It seems every time a positive article comes out about him someone has something negative to say ( VY supporters).

because bush supporters have never said anything negative about VT right?



-------------------------------> :rolleyes:


I've said plenty positve things about bush, but this article looks like a usc press release.

[pgabriel]

furthermore, just like people say the texans shouldn't pick vy to gain fans or increase the value of the franchise through his popularity, this article makes the same argument for bush and it is just as invalid. there is nothing football related.

besides, vy is the real black jesus who makes people happy anyway so this guy doesn't even no what he's talking about. its heresy

[KAS13]

furthermore, just like people say the texans shouldn't pick vy to gain fans or increase the value of the franchise through his popularity, this article makes the same argument for bush and it is just as invalid. there is nothing football related.

besides, vy is the real black jesus who makes people happy anyway so this guy doesn't even no what he's talking about. its heresy


Amare is the Black Jesus just read his kneck.

[underoverup]

Amare is the Black Jesus just read his kneck.

were you thinking about his messed up knees when you posted that?

poor amare. :(

[KAS13]

because bush supporters have never said anything negative about VT right?



-------------------------------> :rolleyes:


I've said plenty positve things about bush, but this article looks like a usc press release.


Most people who are actually having legite conversations now aren't taking shots at VY. There's a couple of posters who obviously have an agenda on both sides but for the most part people seem to wish the best for VY. it just seems like any time Reggie does somethign well or there's a positive article on him somebody has to be negative.

When VY was visiting the kids at the correctional insitute I don't remember anyone calling that a publicity thing or press release.

[KAS13]

were you thinking about his messed up knees when you posted that?

poor amare. :(


Nah, just the fact that he really had Black Jesus tatooed on his kneck. I honestly think if Phoenix would just be patient (they will be now) and let him recover he'll be fine. If he rehabs hard and uses the other time to work on his shooting and passing out of the double team he may come back better. His microfracture was different (similar to Stockton's) and if they didn't rush him back he wouldn't have had fluid buildup in his other knee. He was like 2 months ahead of schedule when he returned. Stupid idea by Phoenix

[pgabriel]

Most people who are actually having legite conversations now aren't taking shots at VY. There's a couple of posters who obviously have an agenda on both sides but for the most part people seem to wish the best for VY. it just seems like any time Reggie does somethign well or there's a positive article on him somebody has to be negative.

When VY was visiting the kids at the correctional insitute I don't remember anyone calling that a publicity thing or press release.


you would have a hard time arguing that more people are negative about bush than vince young.

you're right, there have been some cheesy publicity articles about vy. but this article compliments bush because he threw out the first pitch in san diego, his hometown, rather than the more popular L.A. that's just flat out ridiculous.

[reggietodd]

Reggie Bush is going to be the face of the Houston Texans for the next 10 years.

[KAS13]

you would have a hard time arguing that more people are negative about bush than vince young.

you're right, there have been some cheesy publicity articles about vy. but this article compliments bush because he threw out the first pitch in san diego, his hometown, rather than the more popular L.A. that's just flat out ridiculous.


That's my whole point. We've seen it done on both guys and thye've all been posted on these boards. If i see a cheesy VY article i just let it go b/c it's not a big deal. Same with Reggie.


I think the reason you've seen more negative things about Vy is because he has more question marks then Bush does. I don't think but about one or two posters I've seen actually dislike VY just because.

[KAS13]

Reggie Bush is going to be the face of the Houston Texans for the next 10 years.


Yeah, he just got here about an hour ago.

[pgabriel]

That's my whole point. We've seen it done on both guys and thye've all been posted on these boards. If i see a cheesy VY article i just let it go b/c it's not a big deal. Same with Reggie.


I think the reason you've seen more negative things about Vy is because he has more question marks then Bush does. I don't think but about one or two posters I've seen actually dislike VY just because.


but I don't dislike bush, I never have, I never have been for drafting him either for the texans. and again, I've never said anything negative about bush, his skills, or anything. personally I never said that white may have been better. I've never said he won't be an every down back. I've never said he won't be able to do in the nfl what he did in college.

and I'm glad you at least admit that vy has more negative things written about him. i don't know anyone who has anything personal against bush, but I can name a few posters who have written pretty nasty personal posts against vy.

[swilkins]

Bush and VY are genuinely good guys with bright futures ahead of them.

[Fatty FatBastard]

MadMax is not going to like the newest cover of his son's SI magazine.

[pgabriel]

Yeah, he just got here about an hour ago.


and vince young will be here tomorrow

[LongTimeFan]

I was all for drafting VY at first.. but if you're still clinging to that hope, I almost feel sorry for you. The fact that Leinart hasn't been mentioned as being on the Texans radar should show that the only reason they're entertaining VY is to please us. I'm ecstatic to be getting Bush with our new offensive additions.. this should be a fun year to be a Texans fan.

edit: Add that to what Moulds said in the paper:

"It's tough because it limits your abilities," Moulds said. "But I have great memories. It was just frustrating playing with so many different quarterbacks. You just had to keep adjusting. It's not like that here. David Carr is the quarterback, and he's going to be here the whole time. I just have to adjust to him."

[MadMax]

MadMax is not going to like the newest cover of his son's SI magazine.

our subscription lapsed...it was SI for Kids. Who's on it?

[mateo]

Yeah I cannot find it online.

[KAS13]

but I don't dislike bush, I never have, I never have been for drafting him either for the texans. and again, I've never said anything negative about bush, his skills, or anything. personally I never said that white may have been better. I've never said he won't be an every down back. I've never said he won't be able to do in the nfl what he did in college.

and I'm glad you at least admit that vy has more negative things written about him. i don't know anyone who has anything personal against bush, but I can name a few posters who have written pretty nasty personal posts against vy.


I can agree with this

[SWTsig]

our subscription lapsed...it was SI for Kids. Who's on it?

VY in a titans uni.

i rewatched the rose bowl a few night s ago and man..... i would love to have VY on this team. just seems perfect.

but you know what, if VY ain't the one, than i'll be more than happy with bush. the guy is a stud - a true playmaker. our offense will be pretty lethal with either one of those guys. VY just pulls on my heart strings a little more.

[KAS13]

and vince young will be here tomorrow

Yeah, he works out tommorrow. Honestly, I think it's a situation of having to take a look at him privately (the same with Leinart). It would be dumb not to at least work them out.


If you don't bring in prospects other then Bush then you tip your hat. Casserly IMHO is just saying he is fielding offers to see if he can get something ridiculous. Fact is, it's not going to happen. The only team that will jump ahead (from everything I've read) is NY to get Leinart. That being said, they could get a better deal from NO. Why would they deal with us? It costs them more and we are stuck. We can't trade out of the top 5 because Williams, Brick and Hawk could be gone. I think GB is content where they are as I haven't seen them looking to move up. They have like 20 rb's (and our content now with getting a guy like Hawk). Tenn and NO have no reason to move. NO isn't going to move out of a spot where they can't get Brick or Williams either. I think Tenn would be just as satisied with VY as Leinart (not enough difference to trade high picks).

Realistically, NY isn't giving us Vilma and their #1. Just not happening. Bush is already looking at houses and talking contract. There really isn't a trade out there (unless it's with NY and they better pay too b/c we're taking a huge risk with Brick) there isn't a trade out there for us.

[Harrisment]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3774738.html

Reggie Bush 'excited' to be in Houston for visit with Texans

By MEGAN MANFULL
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

As soon as 2005 Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush arrived in Houston for the first time, he was ready for his tour. It was already dark when his plane landed Wednesday night, forcing Bush to be patient, whether he wanted to be or not.

Thursday, Bush's first official day will begin in the city he hopes to call home after the April 29 draft. Bush will spend all day at Reliant Stadium to help him become familiar with the facilities and the personnel.

"I've been looking forward to this visit," he said. "I want to let everybody know who I am and what I am all about.

"I'm so excited to be here. I wish we could have started today. I'm hoping Houston will be my new home."

Bush, who is in town with his agent Joel Segal and marketing consultant Mike Ornstein, is one of two players the Texans are considering drafting with the No. 1 overall pick. The other is Texas quarterback Vince Young, who will visit and have an on-field workout with the Texans on Friday.

Bush arrives less than a week after he put together a strong performance at Southern Cal's Pro Day last Sunday. While in Los Angeles, Bush spent time with Texans general manager Charley Casserly and coach Gary Kubiak.

Much of Bush's time Thursday will be spent meeting Texans owner Bob McNair and many others in the organization, including offensive coordinator Troy Calhoun and running backs coach Chick Harris.

[SWTsig]

is there any way we could select both players?

"with the first pick of the 2006 NFL draft, the Houston Texans select Reggie Bush and Vince Young."

then tell every other team to kiss our ass.

:p

[askball]

Vince article...

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9358699/1

Vince Young is no draft risk.

I didn't say it. Jerry Rhome did. And you better pay attention because not only was Rhome an accomplished quarterback and rock-solid NFL assistant, but he's now Vince Young's tutor.

He has been the past two months, flying from his Atlanta home to Houston to work with Young on his passing, his footwork, his drops from center, his decision-making, you name it. When I caught up with Rhome he was packing Monday for another trip -- this time to work with Young in preparation for a workout Friday with the Houston Texans.


Everyone knows VY can run, but questions remain about whether he can throw. The Texans aren't expected to draft him; they seem zeroed in on Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush instead. But that's not the point. There are many, many others willing to spend millions on Vince Young, and Rhome is here to tell them they should be.

In fact, he's here to tell them more. Much more.

"I'd be excited if I were the club that had a chance to draft him," said Rhome, the 1964 Heisman runner-up, "because of all the upside he has. He hasn't even scratched the surface. I just think you have a guy where it's all in front of him."

Rhome isn't alone in his opinion. Two weeks ago Young held a workout attended by more than 100 NFL scouts, coaches and executives. Among them was Houston owner Bob McNair, who introduced himself to the quarterback prior to the 30-minute session.

All were there to see what Young had to offer. They'd seen videotapes of his astonishing Rose Bowl performances, but Young didn't throw at the February scouting combine, and there were all these questions ... OK, all these doubts ... about the guy.

Could he take a snap from center? How comfortable was he out of the shotgun? How quickly could he make decisions? And what was up with that awkward throwing motion?

Then Young went through the drills. He threw from three-step drops. And five. And seven. He threw short passes. He threw deep passes. He threw to the sidelines. He threw across the middle.

In all, he threw 57 passes and completed all but a handful.

"It was a great workout," said Rhome. "I said a little prayer before it all happened, and I was proud of him. He had fun with it. You could see it. The guy rises to the occasion when the pressure is on him. He put on a show."

The workout was a microcosm of Young's illustrious collegiate career. Rewind the tape to the 2005 Rose Bowl, and you find Young producing 372 yards and five touchdowns in a come-from-behind 38-37 win. Then fast-forward to this year's national championship game, and there is Young again -- this time running for 200 yards, throwing for another 267 and scoring three times in a 41-38 come-from-behind victory.

"That," USC Coach Pete Carroll said afterward, "is an extraordinary football player."

Nobody questions Vince Young's athletic abilities. What they do question is how those abilities translate to the pro game. Some people continue to wonder if can operate over center. Others aren't comfortable with his delivery. Still others point to his Wonderlic score at the February combine as a warning that he might struggle with the information overload about to engulf him.

Relax, people, and tune in again to Jerry Rhome.

"When I first started," he said, "I was like just about everyone else: I wanted to see what he was all about. Most of the negativity was about his throwing motion, but that actually is a positive. He gets rid of the ball quicker than anyone I've seen. It's not as if he throws side-armed; it's that he just doesn't take the ball back -- and, as a result, he gets rid of it quickly. It's like a three-quarter whip motion, and it reminds me a little of Kurt Warner. He takes the ball back, then -- boom! -- it's gone."

Well, then, what about that Wonderlic whiff?

"A mistake was made," said Rhome, "so he retook it, and the score he finished with wasn't bad. Listen, he's not getting ready to be an English teacher or a math expert. He's learning individual throws, protections, audibles, when to throw and when to take the sack because that's his business. If the question is: Is he brilliant enough? There's no doubt in my mind that he is."

OK, let's move on. There's Young's history with a shotgun-offense. Alex Smith played in one at the University of Utah, and it didn't stop San Francisco from making him the first pick of the 2005 draft. But look what happened: In his rookie year, Smith threw one touchdown, 11 interceptions and fumbled 11 times.

Who's to say Vince Young is different? Let me introduce you again to Jerry Rhome.

"He can do anything you ask him," he said, "and he proves it over and over. All he needs to do is get in a system and have someone coaching him. He did what he was asked to do at the University of Texas, and he did it very well. The criticism really isn't fair because all he was coached to know was that offense. I'm very, very impressed with how quickly he adapts."

As an example, he cited Young's work on three-, five- and seven-step drops. When Rhome first demonstrated for his understudy, showing him how to retreat seven paces before steadying himself to throw, Young shook his head in disbelief.

"Man," he said, "that seems like a long way back there."

And it was. Especially after Young tried it. Where Rhome wanted him to set up eight-to-eight-and-half yards behind center, Young was taking it to 10 -- largely because he has such an enormous stride.

No problem. The two made corrections, and Young began to get his steps down. He shortened his stride. His confidence grew. Setting his feet wasn't an issue. Neither was delivering the football, and don't take it from me. Ask the people who attended his workout.

"If anyone is going to make a mistake on him," said Rhome, "it's because they're looking at him on film. He's not the most polished guy on film. But look at him now: He's such a quick learner. He did what he was asked to do.

"All I know is he's proved it. I'm not a magician. You can take him and coach him, and he responds. Would I have any reservations about drafting him? Absolutely not."

[Starvela]

Quote:is there any way we could select both players?

"with the first pick of the 2006 NFL draft, the Houston Texans select Reggie Bush and Vince Young."

then tell every other team to kiss our ass.


That's what I'm talking about....

[VesceySux]

If you don't bring in prospects other then Bush then you tip your hat.

Why would that even matter? We have the first pick, so everyone else adjusts to us. We're in the position of power. If we trade down, it'll be for BPA, anyway, since Bush will most likely be gone after #2. Bringing Vince in is just a way to please the fans, sadly, plain and simple. No need for Chaz Casserole to throw up smokescreen with the first freaking pick.

Boy, it sure would be a tip-off to other teams if we have Bush under contract before the draft. :)

[pgabriel]

Boy, it sure would be a tip-off to other teams if we have Bush under contract before the draft. :)


great post. I'm sick of the, "the decision is made posts". when the decision is made, contract talks will start, it happens all the time with teams who have the first pick.

[Major]

Why would that even matter? We have the first pick, so everyone else adjusts to us. We're in the position of power. If we trade down, it'll be for BPA, anyway, since Bush will most likely be gone after #2. Bringing Vince in is just a way to please the fans, sadly, plain and simple. No need for Chaz Casserole to throw up smokescreen with the first freaking pick.


It may not apply for this year, but as a general rule, you always want to throw up a smokescreen for the #1 pick. Why? Because that forces other people to deal with you if they want a trade. Let's say it wasn't completely unclear whether we were taking a QB or RB. Then, if someone wants to trade up for Matt Leinart, they absolutely have to go to #1, or they risk us taking him. If other teams know who we're taking, they have more flexibility in trying to trade up to 1 or 2. Or if they are open to either Leinart or Young, and they know we're taking Bush, they can trade to 2 or 3, whereas otherwise they would need to trade to 1 or 2.

Letting other people know who you plan to take is only a non-negative strategy if there's absolutely no way you will change your decision, no matter what the trade offer is, in which case it doesn't really matter to you who knows.

[Fatty FatBastard]

our subscription lapsed...it was SI for Kids. Who's on it?

Bob Allen showed it on last night's news. It isn't VY in a Titans uni. It is Reggie Bush in a Texans Uni.

[pgabriel]

Someone with the texans still evaluating vy, and considering all the rhetoric coming out, considering mr. mcnair went to go meet vy personally at his workout at ut, that someone who's hasn't given his blessing yet to the bush pick, is more than likely mr. mcnair.

[reggietodd]

great post. I'm sick of the, "the decision is made posts". when the decision is made, contract talks will start, it happens all the time with teams who have the first pick.

The decision has been made.

[pgabriel]

The decision has been made.

Considering your foward looking statements on the Rose Bowl, you would think someone who has made a fool of themselves in predictions would refrain until they know wtf they're talking about.


its so funny, you are having a hissy fit about 610 still talking about trading the pick in the other thread. who are you trying to convince, vince fans or yourself.

[reggietodd]

Considering your foward looking statements on the Rose Bowl, you would think someone who has made a fool of themselves in predictions would refrain until they know wtf they're talking about.


its so funny, you are having a hissy fit about 610 still talking about trading the pick in the other thread. who are you trying to convince, vince fans or yourself.

Bet me then. Put your money where your mouth is. You are seriously the only one saying that the decision hasn't been made, everyone else seems to have a bit of intelligence based on the logical events of things that have happened and have been said recently. Seriously, you are the only one.

[reggietodd]

its so funny, you are having a hissy fit about 610 still talking about trading the pick in the other thread. who are you trying to convince, vince fans or yourself.

I'm not trying to convicnce anyone but you. You are the only one at this point. Well you and maybe Rich Lord.

[pgabriel]

Bet me then. Put your money where your mouth is. You are seriously the only one saying that the decision hasn't been made, everyone else seems to have a bit of intelligence based on the logical events of things that have happened and have been said recently. Seriously, you are the only one.


I already proved my intelligence over you when I said ut would win the rose bowl. i have nothing else to prove.

[reggietodd]

I already proved my intelligence over you when I said ut would win the rose bowl. i have nothing else to prove.

You also said Steve Francis is better than Tracy Mcgrady.

[pgabriel]

You also said Steve Francis is better than Tracy Mcgrady.


I never said that, prove it.

[SamFisher]

Bet me then. Put your money where your mouth is. You are seriously the only one saying that the decision hasn't been made, everyone else seems to have a bit of intelligence based on the logical events of things that have happened and have been said recently. Seriously, you are the only one.

You still owe me for Reggie Bush being only 5-10 and change when you went on and on about him being 6 feet tall - so any and all bet proceeds must be remanded to me.

Consider your bet winnings hereby GARNISHED.

[McGrady]

You still owe me for Reggie Bush being only 5-10 and change when you went on and on about him being 6 feet tall - so any and all bet proceeds must be remanded to me.

Consider your bet winnings hereby GARNISHED.

He's not only 5-10... he's 5-10 and 7/8's. So technically, if you bet that he was "only 5-10", then you should lose. Is this bet really something to be proud about?

[SamFisher]

He's not only 5-10... he's 5-10 and 7/8's. So technically, if you bet that he was "only 5-10", then you should lose. Is this bet really something to be proud about?

I bet that he was less than 6 feet. I'm very very very proud of winning this bet.

Prouder than a milk-buying muslim.

[pgabriel]

I know what you mean sam, I'm not trying to prove I know more, just chill with the "this is a done deal" comments. none of you guys know, as well as me not knowing. the only reason you are making those comments is to bother people who have been arguing for vy. and its silly.

and then when someone says this isn't a done deal, or makes a comment that infers such, you guys are the ones getting mad. you look ridiculous.

[McGrady]

I know what you mean sam, I'm not trying to prove I know more, just chill with the "this is a done deal" comments. none of you guys know, as well as me not knowing. the only reason you are making those comments is to bother people who have been arguing for vy. and its silly.

and then when someone says this isn't a done deal, or makes a comment that infers such, you guys are the ones getting mad. you look ridiculous.

Um, I believe they are saying this is a done deal because:

1. Reggie Bush says he's looking for a house in Houston and saying it's a "99.9% chance he's the pick"... why so confident? Maybe he's been told?
2. All the media is saying he's "set for Houston".
3. Reports of contract talks.
4. Kubiak/CC quotes.

More

[bigtexxx]

Um, I believe they are saying this is a done deal because:

1. Reggie Bush says he's looking for a house in Houston and saying it's a "99.9% chance he's the pick"... why so confident? Maybe he's been told?
2. All the media is saying he's "set for Houston".
3. Reports of contract talks.
4. Kubiak/CC quotes.

More

Of course we're taking Bush. VY6 isn't first pick material. Too many questions.

Bush will be a star.

[pgabriel]

Um, I believe they are saying this is a done deal because:

1. Reggie Bush says he's looking for a house in Houston and saying it's a "99.9% chance he's the pick"... why so confident? Maybe he's been told?
2. All the media is saying he's "set for Houston".
3. Reports of contract talks.
4. Kubiak/CC quotes.

More


see its posts like these. what comments from casserly and kubiak. all I've seen is they haven't decided. what reports of contract talks? you guys are delusional. you're making things up. the only truthful "solid" evidence is bush's quote, which could be interpetted any way.

[MadMax]

Bob Allen showed it on last night's news. It isn't VY in a Titans uni. It is Reggie Bush in a Texans Uni.

glad i let our subscription lapse! :)

[McGrady]

see its posts like these. what comments from casserly and kubiak. all I've seen is they haven't decided. what reports of contract talks? you guys are delusional. you're making things up. the only truthful "solid" evidence is bush's quote, which could be interpetted any way.

Oh geez, why would I make things up? I'm a Rockets fan, not a Texans one. I don't care about this debate, but I've been browsing through this forum and especially texans/fanzone.com and there have been many quotes that BASICALLY lead to the assumption that Bush is 100%... Oops, I mean 99.9% our #1 pick. You're the delusional foolish fellow here.

[gr8-1]

great post. I'm sick of the, "the decision is made posts". when the decision is made, contract talks will start, it happens all the time with teams who have the first pick.


The decision has been made in awhile. VY fan's only consolation now is that he may be the first QB taken. Even Mort is starting to backtrack.


not a Texans one. I don't care about this debate, but I've been browsing through this forum and especially texans/fanzone.com and there have been many quotes that BASICALLY lead to the assumption that Bush is 100%... Oops, I mean 99.9% our #1 pick. You're the delusional foolish fellow here.

If you're not even a fan, why do you say "our?" ;)

[The Real Shady]

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=2485

Last impression
By Nick Schenck
HoustonTexans.com


If the Texans select Reggie Bush with the first pick in the 2006 NFL Draft, the USC running back should have an easy transition.

Speaking with head coach Gary Kubiak Thursday, Bush discovered that if the Texans draft him, his role will be comparable to what it was in college.

“We were pretty much both on the same page,” Bush said of his meeting with Kubiak. “(I’ll be used) similar to the way I was used at Southern Cal, being established as a running back first, and then splitting out wide and playing a little receiver, and returning punts and kicks.”

Bush’s visit with the Texans occurred less than five days after he wowed NFL scouts and coaches at the USC pro day. But the Heisman Trophy winner showed another side of his personality in his first-ever trip to the Bayou City. Appearing calm and composed, Bush spoke to the media in the afternoon and described his tour of Reliant Stadium as well as his meetings with the coaches, players and front office staff.

Asked about what most impressed him about his visit, Bush mentioned the facilities and the team’s attitude and direction, particularly with the Texans’ recent signings.

“It just seems like they have nothing but high expectations for this season and upcoming seasons,” he said. “They’ve made some great additions to their offense this year with Eric Moulds and a few linemen. It just seems like adding those few pieces of the puzzle—hopefully me and a few other guys—will get this team up and running and hopefully competing for a championship this next coming year.”

Vying for titles is nothing new for Bush, who played in three BCS championship games at USC. Because of that experience, as well as the NFL-styled program that head coach Pete Carroll runs, Bush feels like the jump to the league will be that much easier.

“I feel like (head coach Pete Carroll) has been preparing me for this point in time ever since I’ve been at USC, from the first time I stepped foot on the football field,” Bush said. “It’s just the way that we practiced, the way that we worked out, the different mental things that you have to know as far as his offense…I don’t think this started just within these last couple of months, but since the day I stepped on the field at USC.”

In his press conference, Bush kept to himself most of the details of his conversations with team personnel. He did say, however, that the topic of who the Texans would select first on April 29 never arose.

“No, I didn’t directly ask them that question,” Bush said. “They didn’t really tell me anything directly, other than the fact that they’re excited for this upcoming draft and excited for me to be a Texan. And that’s pretty much as far as it goes. It’s still early and I don’t think that they would want to put that out there anyway. I wouldn’t want to, anyway.”

Bush never has denied his desire to join the Texans. But he also is aware that the team is assessing all of its options, and a blockbuster trade could alter the course of the draft. Either way, Bush is prepared to be the face of any franchise that drafts him.

“I feel like it’s something I’ve been looking forward to my whole life and I’m not going to shy away now,” Bush said of the attention. “I’ve played under some of the most intense pressure at USC and some of the highest expectations.”

For those people unfamiliar with Bush’s running style, Carroll has compared it to former Chicago Bears halfback Gale Sayers. At 5-11, 202 pounds, Bush is sturdy enough to take a hit, but he gains most of his yards by relying on his wits and quickness.

While Bush shies away from comparisons to legendary players, mostly because he feels like his accomplishments pale in comparison, he did admire players such as Sayers, Barry Sanders, Marshall Faulk and Emmit Smith as an adolescent.

In any case, Bush is off to blaze his own trail. The fact that he wants to do that in Texas quarterback Vince Young’s backyard only thickens the drama around the draft.

Bush is aware of the debate between him and Young among Texans fans, but he doesn’t let it affect him.

“I would hope that the city would welcome me with open arms,” Bush said. “That’s the way that I would like it to be. But at the same time, I understand that this is (Young’s) hometown and it would be the same way if it were (my hometown) San Diego. I expect for him to have fans here and for them to want him to come here.”

When he was asked if he looked forward to facing Young twice a year, which could happen if Young is drafted by the Tennessee Titans, Bush only smiled.

“I’m pretty sure wherever Vince goes, they’re going to try and make it a rivalry between me and him,” Bush said. “I don’t think it would necessarily have to be in Tennessee.”

He is right about that. Both players could end up in different locations outside of the AFC South. If it were up to Bush, though, Houston would be his final destination.

Only 22 days remain before he finds out if it is.

[Nice Rollin]

bush or dbrickahsaw

[Blatz]

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=2485

Last impression
By Nick Schenck
HoustonTexans.com


If the Texans select Reggie Bush with the first pick in the 2006 NFL Draft, the USC running back should have an easy transition.

Speaking with head coach Gary Kubiak Thursday, Bush discovered that if the Texans draft him, his role will be comparable to what it was in college...

Great so if the game is on the line he's going to line up on the side lines.

Just joking, but you know someone was probably going to say it with a straight face.

[gucci888]

It's all a smoke screen. :cool: ;)

The Texans offensive is going to be very interesting to watch. They have a chance to be very explosive, AJ/Moulds/Bush/DD is good core. It's still gonna be up to Carr and OL to make it all work though.