[FoxSports.com]- Bush or Young? Let's Settle This Debate

[askball]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5234752

The Texans are certainly sitting pretty now, aren't they?

The league has been abuzz about Reggie Bush for months. Now, as if to make up for lost time, the buzz about Vince Young is deafening. Until last Wednesday, the debate for the Texans was whether they should take Bush or trade down for players at positions where they really needed help, like Ohio State linebacker A.J. Hawk or Virginia left tackle D'Brickashaw Ferguson.
But now there's a new layer to the debate: Vince or Reggie?

Reggie Bush is a known quantity. It's much easier to project a college running back to the NFL than a college quarterback, particularly a quarterback such as Vince Young. Bush was on the radar screen as a possible early entrant and first-round pick even before this season. Young flew up the draft boards — at least the media's, if not the ones on NFL general managers' walls — on the strength of one phenomenal game. If the Texans want the best player they can find with the top pick, Bush is still the best choice. One great game isn't enough to change that.

Taking Young instead of Bush with the first pick would represent a monumental risk for the Texans. The term that has attached itself to Bush is "can't-miss prospect." It's true that running back is far from the top in the list of the Texans' needs. But they would take Bush because they are so certain that, barring injury, he will be one of the best players at his position. Quarterback isn't high on the list of needs either — depending on your opinion of David Carr, it is a position that could be improved but not one that is holding back the team — so the Texans would have to be as certain about Young as they are about Bush.

Young's potential is unprecedented. If his passing could catch up to his running, he could be the greatest quarterback in the history of the NFL. But that might never happen, and he could be merely another Kordell Stewart.

Young needs a lot of work to make it in the NFL. He's a great football player, and a great quarterback, but his strengths made up for the deficiencies in his game at the college level in ways that they won't at the pro level. His strengths are his tremendous athleticism, as expressed in his running ability that might be better than Michael Vick's, and his calmness and consequent ability to know what's going on everywhere on the field.

Vince Young running is a thing of beauty. When Vick runs, it's exciting, because he is always capable of scoring. But Young seems to glide effortlessly down the field, his long strides spiriting him past the defense much faster than they seem. He has a truly extraordinary feel for where defenders are and where they're coming from, and he can avoid them so deftly that they end up looking silly. That also allows him to avoid hard head-on hits — the kind of hits that get quarterbacks injured. He sheds tacklers effortlessly because of his great balance and body control, and when he gets tackled he tends to get pulled down rather than knocked down.

Because of his preternatural athleticism, defenses play Young differently than they would a Matt Leinart. They put a spy on him, thereby taking a guy out of coverage; when he drifts toward scrambling, they pursue him more vigorously than they would other players. That all causes a lot of big holes in the coverage all over the field for his receivers to plant themselves in, and his field awareness allows him to find them and hit them in those holes. Because they're so open so much of the time, he doesn't have to be as accurate or as strong-armed with a lot of his big throws.

To be sure, he throws a lot of good, quick, NFL-style passes, but they aren't his bread and butter, and they're not as consistently successful. It's no coincidence that the offense stalled out in the red zone a few times in the Rose Bowl, and that all the Texas touchdowns were on the ground. Open spaces in the defense don't appear as readily, and they aren't as big, when the field is compressed in the red zone. So Young can't lob those really gorgeous passes to wide open receivers like he does between the 20s.

Most of Young's highlight-reel passes are rainbows to uncovered receivers that don't necessarily demonstrate accuracy or a strong arm. That's not to say that they're passes that any quarterback could make. It's only because he's Vince Young that he can be scrambling to his right and a receiver can be open all the way across the field to his left after the defense slackened its discipline to defend the scramble. And on top of that, it's an entirely different skill that he is able to find that receiver back to the left, know how open he is, know that he'll still be open when a pass gets to him, and then throw it to him accurately. That is an extremely potent and rare combination. But it's not necessarily one that will be as effective in the NFL.

NFL defenses won't have the same response to Young's scrambling as college defenses. For one thing, they've kind of caught up to Vick at this point, and so they have a head start on Young, who's similar at least as far as the defensive scheme required. But more than that, the reason he's so dangerous in college football is because he's head and shoulders better than any athlete on any defense he's seen all season, with maybe one exception per very good team. He will still be an upper-echelon athlete in the NFL, but the gap won't be as wide.

His runs won't be so consistently effective, and they won't be so devastating. NFL defenses won't have to game-plan as hard against them, and defenders won't overcommit as much to them. NFL defensive players are also a lot more experienced, and probably "football smarter" than college defensive players, so they will tend to keep to their coverage and backside responsibilities better even when Young is scrambling in the pocket. All of that means that he won't find those huge open spaces with receivers in them. He will have to throw zippier, more accurate passes. Maybe not as zippy and accurate as a Leinart will, but still better than most of the passes he threw in college.

There's no reason to think he can't do this. He's shown definite improvement as a passer every year, and his work ethic is famous. But if the Texans tried to take Young as is and play him, they would find little success. It's well known that his mechanics are poor, and he almost never ran an NFL-style dropback at Texas. There is certainly no guarantee that he will one day be a Pro Bowl-caliber passer — which is what you expect if you draft him with the first overall pick. The jury is still out on Vick as a passer, and while he and Young are not identical, that should be enough to make the Texans wonder.

Not only is Young a risky pick, drafting him would mark a major overhaul for the Texans. A team can make use of more than one good running back — Denver does it every year — but only one quarterback. Drafting Young means giving up on Carr. But Young needs time to develop as an NFL quarterback, meaning Houston would have to keep Carr until Young was ready, with everyone knowing that Carr would then be released, or release Carr and sign a veteran free-agent seat filler. They would have to make that decision by the Pro Bowl, when Carr becomes a free agent unless the Texans pick up his option.

But that isn't the case with running backs, particularly with Bush and Domanick Davis. Each year, Davis has missed at least one game and been slowed in others due to injury, and Bush is a smaller back who benefits from sharing the rushing duties. Not only that, both Davis and Bush are excellent receivers out of the backfield, so they could line up together in creative formations, helping to bolster the Texans' thin wide receiver corps. The Texans could also move backup running back Jonathan Wells, a good football player but their worst pure runner, to fullback — a la Mike Anderson in Denver in 2004. With Broncos offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak the likely choice as the Texans' next head coach, Houston would be poised to imitate Denver's annual rushing excellence.

That doesn't mean the Texans need a running back like Bush, and in the short term they would improve more by trading down and drafting a player who, although he might not be as good as Bush, would fill a position that is currently a weakness. Or they could take Bush because he is the "best player available," which happens to be a lot easier to do when the best player is a running back, not a quarterback. Drafting Bush would not force the Houston front office's hand the same way drafting Young would.

The first pick is not for taking gambles. Vince Young, at this stage of his development, is a gamble. The upside is there, and it is tremendous, but so is the risk that the Texans would be right back here five years from now — watching the David Carr-led Raiders challenge the Reggie Bush-led Saints in Super Bowl XLV while trying to decide whom they should take with the top pick to replace Vince Young.

[DVauthrin]

To be sure, he throws a lot of good, quick, NFL-style passes, but they aren't his bread and butter, and they're not as consistently successful. It's no coincidence that the offense stalled out in the red zone a few times in the Rose Bowl, and that all the Texas touchdowns were on the ground. Open spaces in the defense don't appear as readily, and they aren't as big, when the field is compressed in the red zone. So Young can't lob those really gorgeous passes to wide open receivers like he does between the 20s.

Most of Young's highlight-reel passes are rainbows to uncovered receivers that don't necessarily demonstrate accuracy or a strong arm. That's not to say that they're passes that any quarterback could make. It's only because he's Vince Young that he can be scrambling to his right and a receiver can be open all the way across the field to his left after the defense slackened its discipline to defend the scramble. And on top of that, it's an entirely different skill that he is able to find that receiver back to the left, know how open he is, know that he'll still be open when a pass gets to him, and then throw it to him accurately. That is an extremely potent and rare combination. But it's not necessarily one that will be as effective in the NFL.



Maybe whoever wrote this should go pop the tape in the film room again because they are flat out wrong. Vince maybe had one or two lob passes in the rose bowl, and sure he threw a few jump ball type passes this season, but so do all NFL quarterbacks with tall wide receivers on their team. The vast majority of his passes were not "lobs." I don't mind someone saying take Bush, but for a well known media site to write an article with flat out erroneous information is irreprehensible and wrong.

[IC2000]

Maybe whoever wrote this should go pop the tape in the film room again because they are flat out wrong. Vince maybe had one or two lob passes in the rose bowl, and sure he threw a few jump ball type passes this season, but so do all NFL quarterbacks with tall wide receivers on their team. The vast majority of his passes were not "lobs." I don't mind someone saying take Bush, but for a well known media site to write an article with flat out erroneous information is irreprehensible and wrong.

He never said anything you just corrected he did however say that most of his highlight reel passes were lobs

[Dave2000]

i never thought about that comparison with Kordell Stewart. He was awesome in his days then just went downhill. Is he even in the league anymore?

Interesting enough, I have a coworker that use to work at Compaq and worked with a someone name Curvin Richards, backup running back to Emmitt Smith 91-93. Apparently he is famous for fumbling 2 carries in the last regular season game of the 93 season before they eventually became Super Bowl Champs for the second time.

[DVauthrin]

He never said anything you just corrected he did however say that most of his highlight reel passes were lobs

If throwing deep is considered a lob then so be it, but he throws the deep ball no different than any other quarterback. I don't consider those lob passes. A lob pass was like that pass late versus USC(across the field) to Thomas where it really was a lob, and there was another one to DT and I think one to Bo Scaife in last year's rose bowl. If those are his "highlight reel passes" it is only because he only throws them when teams look like they have him stopped in his tracks for good. And one or two of them per game at worst does not="majority of highlight reel passes."

It's still not accurate on the writer's part.

[IC2000]

If throwing deep is considered a lob then so be it, but he throws the deep ball no different than any other quarterback. I don't consider those lob passes. A lob pass was like that pass late versus USC(across the field) to Thomas where it really was a lob, and there was another one to DT and I think one to Bo Scaife in last year's rose bowl. If those are his "highlight reel passes" it is only because he only throws them when teams look like they have him stopped in his tracks for good. And one or two of them per game at worst does not="majority of highlight reel passes."

It's still not accurate on the writer's part.

They are both great players , I want Bush. We will see what happens in the future. I like the Kordell Stewart Comparison, they have really similar styles. Vince is better with his feet though. We have never seen anyone like Bush. He could turn out like sanders, sayers,LT, metcalf. Who knows. I think in the end the UT/VY lovers will win and get Young on the Texans.

[chow_yun_fat]

i want bush 2...but i bet we're gonna get vy.

[mogrod]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5234752

The Texans are certainly sitting pretty now, aren't they?

If yall want to see something interesting, look at the poll towards the bottom of the page.

--------------------------------------------------------
If you were the Texans and both players went pro, who would you take?

46674 Votes
55% - Reggie Bush
45% - Vince Young
--------------------------------------------------------

[gr8-1]

there's no way the Texans will take Young. And, UT fans have no effect on what the Texans will do.

[pariah]

Interesting enough, I have a coworker that use to work at Compaq and worked with a someone name Curvin Richards, backup running back to Emmitt Smith 91-93. Apparently he is famous for fumbling 2 carries in the last regular season game of the 93 season before they eventually became Super Bowl Champs for the second time.

Dave 2000,

Swervin' Curvin - an absoulute stud. We went to High School (La Porte) together. He had some minor problems holding onto the ball even back then though. I remember a HS playoff game at Rice when The LP Bulldogs lost a playoff game against Stratford when Curvin lost the ball near or just beyond the goal line (THE FREAKING GROUND CAN'T CAUSE A FUMBLE! - therapy doesn't always work).

sorry, I hadn't thought of Curvin in a while. He was a fantastic rb, but he had some costly drops throughout his football career.


Back on track - I hope Vince has a much more celebrated career than did Stewart. Slash only dreams of holding the skills that Vince has...Vince has twice the skills than did Stewart. I find the Randall Cunningham a much more accurate parrallel. Vick is too en vogue as a comparison to me.

there's no way the Texans will take Young. And, UT fans have no effect on what the Texans will do.

See one Travis, not Derrick, Johnson if you need further proof of this fact. SA Cass...ass and cass - that rhymes...coincident?

[Agent27]

And, UT fans have no effect on what the Texans will do.

Amen! The organization would really have to have piss poor management to let a group of people wearing ____________ colored glasses tell them what to do.

Fact is that most UT fans overvalue Vince Young. Not that he isn't a great player and can't be one at the next level, just that it natural for them to think more highly of one of their own.

I'm sure that Oregon fans though that Akili Smith would be a great QB and that Washington State fans though that Ryan Leaf was better than Peyton Manning.

I'm not saying that VY will end up like those two, I don't think he will. I'm just illustrating that college loyalties make rational people unrationally biased.

The point of the article is Bush is a pretty sure bet and that there is a degree of risk with VY. And you really can't argue with that.

[Aceshigh7]

If yall want to see something interesting, look at the poll towards the bottom of the page.

--------------------------------------------------------
If you were the Texans and both players went pro, who would you take?

46674 Votes
55% - Reggie Bush
45% - Vince Young
--------------------------------------------------------

Yea, but that's nationally. Most of the impartial football fans around the country think we should trade down and not pick Young or Bush.

I think among Houston area fans, Vince Young has got to be the favored player. I just hope the Texans listen to fan sentiment. I definitely don't want us to miss out on Vince Young. We already have a great running back in Davis. We need a great QB, and Young can be the best.

[IC2000]

We already have a great running back in Davis.

:eek:

[halfbreed]

:eek:

976 yards on 230 carries ain't too shabby. Now if you're talking durability, that is indeed a different story. However, I have a feeling Reggie Bush isn't the most durable of backs.

[Cire]

The Texans are in a damn good situation to be in. But I vote Vince Young. I am not sold on Carr. It could be a huge mistake to keep Carr. QBs don't fall out of trees, we could be stuck with him or another, as the coaches like to call them, unproven QB and Reggie Bush. Carr is is young and his window is closing quick. VY is young and will immediately bring excitement.

[Cohen]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5234752
...
Young's potential is unprecedented. If his passing could catch up to his running, he could be the greatest quarterback in the history of the NFL.

....



Well ok then.

[francis 4 prez]

i actually thought that was a pretty good article; one of the more accurate, in depth, and honest looks at VY's game and how it may or may not translate into the NFL.

[jtotheb]

there's no way the Texans will take Young. And, UT fans have no effect on what the Texans will do.

And thank goodness for that...

I have to admit, after watching the Rose Bowl I really wanted VY too. But, once you get past the well-deserved hype from that game...it just seems to make more sense to draft Bush or trade the pick. I hope that we never draft a player just so we won't play against them. That's chicken-sh** . If the Kubiak regime comes in here and helps to make the right decisions, it won't matter. And if that means VY is a Texan, then I'm a VY fan. If the Texans don't draft VY and he becomes the next coming of Christ himself, then I'm going to hell because I'll still be a Texan fan.

[Harrisment]

And thank goodness for that...

I have to admit, after watching the Rose Bowl I really wanted VY too. But, once you get past the well-deserved hype from that game...it just seems to make more sense to draft Bush or trade the pick. I hope that we never draft a player just so we won't play against them. That's chicken-sh** . If the Kubiak regime comes in here and helps to make the right decisions, it won't matter. And if that means VY is a Texan, then I'm a VY fan. If the Texans don't draft VY and he becomes the next coming of Christ himself, then I'm going to hell because I'll still be a Texan fan.

Good post. :)

[rhester]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5234752

Most of Young's highlight-reel passes are rainbows to uncovered receivers that don't necessarily demonstrate accuracy or a strong arm.

drafting him would mark a major overhaul for the Texans.


The first pick is not for taking gambles. Vince Young, at this stage of his development, is a gamble. The upside is there, and it is tremendous, but so is the risk that the Texans would be right back here five years from now — watching the David Carr-led Raiders challenge the Reggie Bush-led Saints in Super Bowl XLV while trying to decide whom they should take with the top pick to replace Vince Young.

This is why teams make draft mistakes.

Few of Young's highlight reel passes went to open receivers (watch the Michigan game, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St. , USC game) Like nobody covered any of Texas receivers all year. Did anyone actually watch the games?

The Texans need a major overhaul period. Did we just finish 8-8?

The David Carr led Raiders will play the Reggie Bush led Saints in the Super Bowl the same year Rice and the University of Houston play for the BCS national championship.

I think everyone should watch the games- Whether the Texans draft VY or not he had a very good year passing. Why can't it stand for what it is. He is a gifted passer.

All the experts that say he has a bad motion are right, it is unorthodox. All the experts that say he 'floats' rainbows' out to wide open receivers are crazy.

Does his passing need to be dissed because he is a great runner?

What's with that?

Let's draft Bush and get it over with. :(

[MadMax]

If yall want to see something interesting, look at the poll towards the bottom of the page.

--------------------------------------------------------
If you were the Texans and both players went pro, who would you take?

46674 Votes
55% - Reggie Bush
45% - Vince Young
--------------------------------------------------------


i saw that poll. i guarantee you a Chronicle poll would be different.

in addition, this poll immediately follows an article saying they SHOULD draft Reggie Bush. i'm thinking that skews the poll tremendously.

[pgabriel]

i actually thought that was a pretty good article; one of the more accurate, in depth, and honest looks at VY's game and how it may or may not translate into the NFL.


I thought it was pretty good too, except he did imply that people only realized how good vince is.

[crose]

Everybody just needs to put the debate over VY/reggie aside for one minute, and take the time to feel very thankful that we even have this argument. I mean, what if we had the first pick in last years draft? I, for one, feel blessed that we are debating over who to draft out of two of the most exciting players of recent memory!

with that being said.......

BRING ON VINCE.......WE ARE STILL RECOVERING FROM THE LAST BUSH THAT WAS IN TEXAS!

ok....recommence the debate!

[SWTsig]

And thank goodness for that...

I have to admit, after watching the Rose Bowl I really wanted VY too. But, once you get past the well-deserved hype from that game...it just seems to make more sense to draft Bush or trade the pick. I hope that we never draft a player just so we won't play against them. That's chicken-sh** . If the Kubiak regime comes in here and helps to make the right decisions, it won't matter. And if that means VY is a Texan, then I'm a VY fan. If the Texans don't draft VY and he becomes the next coming of Christ himself, then I'm going to hell because I'll still be a Texan fan.

that's sig material right there.

[jopatmc]

i saw that poll. i guarantee you a Chronicle poll would be different.

in addition, this poll immediately follows an article saying they SHOULD draft Reggie Bush. i'm thinking that skews the poll tremendously.

I think that's a pretty good pole actually. A nationwide poll taken with a pro-Bush article written around it, after a full season of Bush Heisman pumping.............and Vince still pulled 45% of the vote.

You're right. Give that poll to Houstonians and Vince pulls over 80%.

[MadMax]

You're right. Give that poll to Houstonians and Vince pulls over 80%.


i'm sure that poll will eventually be done by the Chronicle. i will be very interested to see how it turns out. honestly, wouldn't surprise me to see an 85% pro-Vince return.

[OldManBernie]

The article failed to address the leadership qualities that VY would bring to the team. VY has been the cornerstone for extremely successful H.S. and College programs. From some of the recent grumblings, it looks like the team itself has lost faith in David Carr. We need to bring in guys that can step up and be good example of the team. Look at what McGrady has done for the Rockets. Look at what the Killer B's have done for the Astros. The Texans need that.

[pgabriel]

I personally didn't think Vince was much of a qb prospect till the OSU game last season. When they were down 35-7 at home they had a drive at the end of the 1st half that started with less than 2 minutes on the clock. I said while watching that game, and there is a thread on it when I said, that Vince is gonna show us what he's made of if he can operate the 2 minute drill. That's the drive where Thomas looked like he didn't get in the end zone off a Young pass but then I knew he was NFL material.


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=86366&page=1&pp=30

[the futants]

intangibles:

vince = leader

carr?

bush?

vince has a will to win like i haven't seen before. i liken it to elway in that superbowl. i'm not saying vince = elway in any other way. however, leadership and will-to-win seem scarce in today's NFL.
i'm not necessarily saying that the Texans should draft vince or that vince is a better football player that bush (or carr.) however, i think these factors should be taken into account while making the decision on who to draft.
the Texans need a MAJOR overhaul. do people not realize that they won TWO games this year? "drafting vince would dictate a major overhaul for the Texans." really? i wonder why?
please...

[IC2000]

And thank goodness for that...

I have to admit, after watching the Rose Bowl I really wanted VY too. But, once you get past the well-deserved hype from that game...it just seems to make more sense to draft Bush or trade the pick. I hope that we never draft a player just so we won't play against them. That's chicken-sh** . If the Kubiak regime comes in here and helps to make the right decisions, it won't matter. And if that means VY is a Texan, then I'm a VY fan. If the Texans don't draft VY and he becomes the next coming of Christ himself, then I'm going to hell because I'll still be a Texan fan.

Remember kubiak is an aggie ;)

[IC2000]

intangibles:

vince = leader

carr?

bush?

vince has a will to win like i haven't seen before. i liken it to elway in that superbowl. i'm not saying vince = elway in any other way. however, leadership and will-to-win seem scarce in today's NFL.
i'm not necessarily saying that the Texans should draft vince or that vince is a better football player that bush (or carr.) however, i think these factors should be taken into account while making the decision on who to draft.
the Texans need a MAJOR overhaul. do people not realize that they won TWO games this year? "drafting vince would dictate a major overhaul for the Texans." really? i wonder why?
please...


Its fair to say that we could have easily won 5-6 games. I mean the san fran game for sure, st louis , tennessee, and Baltimore. I really think they were tanking.

[MadMax]

Its fair to say that we could have easily won 5-6 games. I mean the san fran game for sure, st louis , tennessee, and Baltimore. I really think they were tanking.


this is what i don't get. do you remember how bad our defense was? maybe we beat SF. but the rams loss wasn't because the offense couldn't move the ball...they moved the ball and scored quite well. but their defense couldn't contain the magic of a 3rd string Ivy League QB.

i don't think they were tanking. i think they freaking sucked. i think they had rookies starting at key DB positions....and i think buchannon was as bad as raiders fans said he was. the OL improved over the year...but that still wasn't saying much. Carr looked like he was moving backwards...and that started happening toward the end of last year. DD was actually a bright spot for me, this season. but i can't think of many other bright spots. not quality starters...no depth. maybe 2 players would be sure starters on any other team in the league.

[mogrod]

You're right. Give that poll to Houstonians and Vince pulls over 80%.

EIGHTY PERCENT? :eek:

The poll on SportRadio610 has Young at 54%, Bush at 43% and 3% trade. So, maybe picking him is not QUITE as popular as some of yall might think.

[MadMax]

EIGHTY PERCENT? :eek:

The poll on SportRadio610 has Young at 54%, Bush at 43% and 3% trade. So, maybe picking him is not QUITE as popular as some of yall might think.

those are hardcore sports fans signing into a sports radio website. that's not what i'm talking about. most aren't as freakish about sports as we all are. that's not the poll i'm concerned with.

[anon3803]

The article among with many others mention that "one great game" shouldn't be enough to move VY over Leinart or Bush. However they fail to mention that it was "one great game" (alright admittedly 1 and a half) that catapulted Bush over VY in the Heisman polls. Then everyone jumped on the Bush bandwagon and the rest is history. I distinctly remember VY having a "comfortable" lead over Bush in the weekly Heisman polls up until the Fresno State game.

I mean to put it into prespective Reggie didn't even break Steve Breaston's mark for all-purpose yards in last year's Rose Bowl. Not to take anything away from Bush, we all know he's a great player, but I don't see his performances translating him into a mega-star in the NFL. We all saw how Texas's fast defense was able to limit him, and NFL defenses are just as fast if not faster. However when he gets open he takes off faster than I think I've ever seen anyone take off :eek:. But Reggie is also not a every down back despite his claims otherwise.

The Texans, from what I've read, (and I admit I'm not the most informed on their motives) have consistently stated their intention to pick Bush with the No. 1 pick. Everyone knows the smart move would be to trade down and pick up a few good linemen, afterall that's obviously what the Texans need. However, a highlight reel player like Bush brings people to the stadium, and others to their sofas in front of the TV. Vick is a perfect example of this. So clearly this isn't so much about winning as it is about $$. And if it is about $$ the Texans would be smart to draft Young. Being a native Houstonian he would instantly boost interest in the team, increase merchandise sales, and help fill the stadium every Sunday. From what I've heard he was even drawing huge crowds when he was playing for Madison. So in conclusion that's why I think the Texans should draft VY. I think they're still leaning toward Bush, but there will be a lot of pressure put on the Texans over the next few months to lean the other way.

[IC2000]

Being a native Houstonian he would instantly boost interest in the team, increase merchandise sales, and help fill the stadium every Sunday. From what I've heard he was even drawing huge crowds when he was playing for Madison. So in conclusion that's why I think the Texans should draft VY. I think they're still leaning toward Bush, but there will be a lot of pressure put on the Texans over the next few months to lean the other way.

The texans have no problems putting people in the seats. The empty seats this year were mostly no shows. That means people paid for the seats and then did not show. I agree Young would sell jerseys, but so would bush. Both are good picks for $$$. Young would be better initially. But right now the texans need to show a quick improvement (before they lose more and more fans). Bush is good for the team now and the future. vince is a project.

[MadMax]

The texans have no problems putting people in the seats. The empty seats this year were mostly no shows. That means people paid for the seats and then did not show. I agree Young would sell jerseys, but so would bush. Both are good picks for $$$. Young would be better initially. But right now the texans need to show a quick improvement (before they lose more and more fans). Bush is good for the team now and the future. vince is a project.

the texans have enjoyed a honeymoon phase. they've enjoyed continued success for the first 3 years. that phase is now over. it started to be over during the browns game the year before.

YOU THINK bush is good now. you don't know. that's what i'm finding to be so frustrating in these arguments. the assumption that we KNOW that bush can play right away with no question marks and will necessarily translate to more wins next season. it's entirely possible that doesn't happen. just as it's entirely possible that VY never pans out as an NFL QB.

[Desert Scar]

... Bush is good for the team now and the future. vince is a project.

Funny :) A QB who passed for over 3000 yards, rushed for 1000 and had the highest passing rating in the nation is a "project" but a part time RB who wasn't his own teams 1st option in the redzone is the next coming of Gale Sayers.

They both have legitimate questions for translating their games to the pros. What we do know however from a whole season, including bowls, is who was BY FAR the best college football player this year, and maybe among decades. It was the one who held the crystal trophy awarded to winners on the field, not the Gino Torreta-Wuerffel pre-playoff hype award that is gifted every year.

It will take a better than expected workout by Bush and/or worse one from VY to justifty passing on VY based on what is known about them, rather than assumed.

[anon3803]

It will take a better than expected workout by Bush and/or worse one from VY to justifty passing on VY based on what is known about them, rather than assumed.

I totally agree, a lot of the stuff about VY being a bad passer is just BS. I'd also like to add that considering Young's work ethic I don't think VY will have a worse than expected workout. Bush may take the talk of VY possibly going #1 as motivation, but considering the hyped up expectations on him, it will be tough to have a better than expected workout.

[mogrod]

those are hardcore sports fans signing into a sports radio website. that's not what i'm talking about. most aren't as freakish about sports as we all are. that's not the poll i'm concerned with.

Of course you're not concerned with it. :rolleyes:

Though, I don't imagine you would make the same comment if Young was dominating the poll like you "predicted".

[Zacatecas]

I think it's time to start waiting for the Indianapolis combine. The Bush vs. Vince debate is giving me a headache. I just want the Texans to get the best player.

Getting Bush is cool because the Texans keep Carr. Bush has been on a cult status since high school (remember the infamous high school years tape :D ) Best prospect to come out in years. Plus, I still think Carr is going to be a pro bowler real soon (he's kind of goofy sometimes; but as long as he gets respect from his teamates). Dynasty? Carr, Bush, Johnson :cool:

Getting Vince is cool because he is an electrifying player who is from Houston, and has SWAGGER ;) And I firmly think that he will win super bowls, he is so poised that it just has to rub off on his teamates, Even Mckinney would play better. But, what can the Texans get for Carr? Isn't his trade value low. Would the Carr pick be a total waste of 4 years (too many sacks might have ruined him already for good; time to replace?) :(


Bush and Davis together would be an electrifying Running back combo. With David Carr having scrabling ability, that should loosen up the coverage for David to hit his receivers.

[DonnyMost]

The article among with many others mention that "one great game" shouldn't be enough to move VY over Leinart or Bush. However they fail to mention that it was "one great game" (alright admittedly 1 and a half) that catapulted Bush over VY in the Heisman polls. Then everyone jumped on the Bush bandwagon and the rest is history. I distinctly remember VY having a "comfortable" lead over Bush in the weekly Heisman polls up until the Fresno State game.

It wasn't just Reggie's "one great game", it was also Vince's poor showing against A&M that cemeneted Bush in the heisman.

And what polls are you talking about? I certainly don't ever remember anyone being "in the lead" until Bush went out in front.

[Desert Scar]

It wasn't just Reggie's "one great game", it was also Vince's poor showing against A&M that cemeneted Bush in the heisman.

And what polls are you talking about? I certainly don't ever remember anyone being "in the lead" until Bush went out in front.

This is correct accoring to ESPN weely polls of Heisman voters. Interesting, in the West Coast they were bidding Leinart after the ND game. It was all about Leinart is such a winner, best player of a team that won 30+, that is why it can't go to Young, bla, bla, bla. Bush's spectacular game versus a mid major opponent widely swung the Heisman voters to his favor from Young and his teammate. Had Young pulled a Kansas performance on A&M you never know, but he didn't. I am glad VY did in the game that really mattered though.

It never was about body of work for the season, it was all about who made the best impression last. Since the award voting was pre-Rose bowl, Bush made the best last impression and won easily.

It was clear to me and a few others who was by far the best college football player well before the Rose Bowl, it took the Rose Bowl to make it obvious for the rest. But again, VY and Texas got the hardwear that is earned on the field.

[KingCheetah]

David Carr 18 - 46 as a starter.

[DaDakota]

David Carr 18 - 46 as a starter.

That says a TON.......4 years is enough time to see what he has....how long do you think Detroit would stay with Joey Harrington?

Carr and Harrington are very close....IMHO

[mogrod]

That says a TON.......4 years is enough time to see what he has....how long do you think Detroit would stay with Joey Harrington?

Carr and Harrington are very close....IMHO

Harrington went to a more established team (not expansion) and one with multiple weapons. He has shown to be a complete bonehead on the field. Carr at least has shown he can make plays. Heck, he has been known to be one of the better NFL QBs at reading a defense and making the right decision on where to throw.

Let's not let cases like Rothlisberger, Palmer, and Brady skew your thinking. It takes years for a QB to reach their potential. Not to mention talent around him. Just look at Drew Brees and Jake Plummer. Get the right coaching, another weapon or two, and an O-line he trusts without getting too skiddish and you're talking about a whole different QB.

[geeimsobored]

That says a TON.......4 years is enough time to see what he has....how long do you think Detroit would stay with Joey Harrington?

Carr and Harrington are very close....IMHO

Harrington has three decent recievers in Roy Williams, Mike Williams, and Charles Rogers (although Rogers is definitely somewhat of a sketch) and he's got a good tight end in marcus pollard. Also Kevin Jones has shown he can be a decent running back. (although this was a bad year for him) And most importantly, he has a better OL than carr ever had.

Harrington has no excuse to be sucking this badly.

[Agent27]

David Carr 18 - 46 as a starter.

Man, you could have put virually any QB on the Texans the result wouln't change much at all.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if a "Vince Young" had been in the draft 4 years ago when we selected Carr you'd all be bitching about how he's a bust and how bad his record was.

[KingCheetah]

I can pretty much guarantee you that if a "Vince Young" had been in the draft 4 years ago when we selected Carr you'd all be bitching about how he's a bust and how bad his record was.

After Vince led us to back-to-back superbowl titles and 4 straight years in the playoffs I would not bitch about his record and certainly wouldn't consider him a bust.

[DaDakota]

Man, you could have put virually any QB on the Texans the result wouln't change much at all.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if a "Vince Young" had been in the draft 4 years ago when we selected Carr you'd all be bitching about how he's a bust and how bad his record was.


See this is where a LEADER steps up and does not let his team play this poorly.

I think David Carr has been a complete and utter bust, he holds the ball too long, has no pocket precense and the next show of leadership by him will be his first.

Vince makes everyone around him better.....Carr....well he makes lunch.

DD

[the futants]

does anyone remember the knock against Carr coming out of Fresno State? anyone??? side-arm delivery may not translate to the NFL. how many passes does Carr have batted down by d-linemen in a given game? Carr: 6'3", 220. Young: 6'5", 235. i'm just throwing that out there...

[Biggienaz786]

Texans needa go Reggie-Reggie in this draft: pick up Reggie Bush 1st, and Reggie McNeal later.

[IC2000]

Texans needa go Reggie-Reggie in this draft: pick up Reggie Bush 1st, and Reggie McNeal later.
:D , thats what i have been saying

[The Cat]

Here we go again.

It wasn't just Reggie's "one great game", it was also Vince's poor showing against A&M that cemeneted Bush in the heisman.

And what polls are you talking about? I certainly don't ever remember anyone being "in the lead" until Bush went out in front.

Vince Young led in every Heisman straw poll the two weeks before Reggie's game against Fresno State. Every one of them. Again, you're believing the media's hype instead of the actual reality. Vince was leading... but curiously, you didn't hear much about who was winning those online polls until Bush grabbed the lead, then it was the lead story of Sportscenter every night.

And, as has already been said, Vince's "poor" showing against A&M was no worse than Reggie's showing against California two weeks earlier.

[The Cat]

That says a TON.......4 years is enough time to see what he has....how long do you think Detroit would stay with Joey Harrington?

Carr and Harrington are very close....IMHO

Except for the little fact that Carr has had a higher QB rating than Harrington in each of their first four seasons in the league, even though Harrington has had a significantly better supporting cast (receivers, tight ends, offensive line) around him.

They're not close at all. There's a reason most respected NFL pundits still claim Carr to be the future of the Texans (why they suggest drafting Bush) and why most claim the Lions to be in the market for a new quarterback. Harrington's been put in a position to succeed, and he's failed. Carr hasn't ever been put anywhere close to a position to succeed, and even so, he's still doing better than Harrington. No comparison.

[The Cat]

See this is where a LEADER steps up and does not let his team play this poorly.

I think David Carr has been a complete and utter bust, he holds the ball too long, has no pocket precense and the next show of leadership by him will be his first.

Vince makes everyone around him better.....Carr....well he makes lunch.

DD

It never ceases to amaze me how some people take such a complex game with over 100 players on the sidelines and 22 on the field and break it down into a game of one player - the quarterback(s).

Texas is one of the top five schools in the entire country in terms of recruiting on a year-to-year basis. The talent around Young is filled with five-star prospects and is in the top 3-4 of talent of 117 teams in Division 1-A football. The talent around Carr is filled with mostly garbage and is clearly in the bottom five in the NFL.

Relative to the competition, Vince has remarkable and incredible talent around him. Relative to the competition, Carr has awful and historically bad talent around him. I've got a funny feeling that might illustrate why the two teams performed as they did - not any absurd idea that players will try harder if the quarterback is a better leader.

None of us are in a position to make any judgments on leadership unless we are on the field or in the lockerroom.

[The Cat]

does anyone remember the knock against Carr coming out of Fresno State? anyone??? side-arm delivery may not translate to the NFL. how many passes does Carr have batted down by d-linemen in a given game? Carr: 6'3", 220. Young: 6'5", 235. i'm just throwing that out there...

I don't see Carr with that many batted balls relative to other quarterbacks. Sure, he has a few, but so does everyone in the NFL. Also, when he does, it's hard to tell whether it's the fault of his delivery or the fault of the worst offensive line in the history of the sport letting the defensive line get too much penetration (and thus in Carr's face). It's not a big problem for Carr, and I don't think it'll be for Vince either. As Mike Martz said a week ago when evaluating Vince, who really cares if the ball gets there?

[Fatty FatBastard]

Vince in the NFL =

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00005NWZL.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Rocket River]

Let's not let cases like Rothlisberger, Palmer, and Brady skew your thinking. It takes years for a QB to reach their potential. Not to mention talent around him. Just look at Drew Brees and Jake Plummer. Get the right coaching, another weapon or two, and an O-line he trusts without getting too skiddish and you're talking about a whole different QB.

Brees got better when THE FUTURE was drafted . .he got. . inspired
Carr has not had any competition in 4 yrs .. and it shows .. he too comfortable

Plummer has been asked to be a Game Manager not a playmaker
Trent Dilfer 2.0 . . . While it may win games it is not entertaining to me
If Carr is to be Dilfer 2.5 . . . i will pass

Rocket River

[The Cat]

Brees got better when THE FUTURE was drafted . .he got. . inspired
Carr has not had any competition in 4 yrs .. and it shows .. he too comfortable

Plummer has been asked to be a Game Manager not a playmaker
Trent Dilfer 2.0 . . . While it may win games it is not entertaining to me
If Carr is to be Dilfer 2.5 . . . i will pass

Rocket River

Plummer is much more than Dilfer. For one thing, his QB rating is over 90, which blows Dilfer's out of the water. However, it's not as simple as Denver limiting his opportunities and turning into a game manager. He was in or around the top third in the league in yards, attempts and YPA. Dilfer was at the bottom in all of those categories.

The reality is that Plummer improved when he got a decent supporting cast of both players and coaches around him. And while the short, simplistic explanation from the media for Brees' improvement is that Rivers "inspired" him, the reality, again, is different. Remember Antonio Gates, the best tight end in the NFL? It's no coincidence that Brees' good seasons came at the same time as Gates' emergence as a big-time playmaker.

Plummer and Brees both showed significant improvement later in their careers when they were put in a position to succeed by having better talent around them.