ClutchFans - LenDale White vs. Reggie Bush

Baqui99

01-09-2006, 03:23 PM

So who's going to be more successful in the NFL? Most of you already know that I'm not in the Bush camp, but LenDale really showed me a lot in the Rose Bowl. He's much faster than I had originally thought, and runs a legit 4.5. At 6'2, 235 he's got the type of power to pound it between the tackles and wear down a defense.

Over the course of an NFL season, a RB needs to be able to withstand the punishment from handling the ball 25 times a game. To me, White has the tackle breaking ability to move the chains on 3rd and 3 type situations.

Meanwhile, Bush has awesome open field moves, but the game is much faster in the NFL. He doesn't have the ability to break tackles like White does. Nor is he the type of back that you can count on to move the chains. In short, he's not the horse that LenDale White will be in the NFL. Bush should be a successful pro as a hybrid WR/TB, but not an every down running back.

Green Bay is said to be enamored with LenDale, and probably will pick him up with the #5 spot if he decides to leave USC early.

pgabriel

01-09-2006, 03:27 PM

This is just like Sanders vs. Smith or Sanders vs. thurman thomas. although Sanders was probably more of an every down prospect.

IROC it

01-09-2006, 05:46 PM

Bush is overrated. White will be the better RB in the league of men.

langal

01-09-2006, 05:50 PM

Maurice Drew is better than both of them.

moligity

01-09-2006, 05:56 PM

Maurice Drew is better than both of them.

HaHaHaHaHa!!!!!

Yeah, so is Nancy Drew.

Baqui99

01-09-2006, 06:45 PM

Maurice Drew is better than both of them.

Maurice Drew couldn't hold LenDale's jockstrap.

Bag0b0y

01-09-2006, 07:11 PM

Bush is overrated. White will be the better RB in the league of men.

Those two remind me of two Auburn teammates who got drafted last year. Cadillac Williams (5-11 217) has a similar build and running style (outside runner)as Bush (6-0 200) and White(6-2 235) was used mostly as a bruiser for short yardage just like Ronnie Brown(6-0 232). Williams held his own in the leauge and they were saying the exact same thing about him such as he's too small, he needs to get thicker, he won't be able to run between the tackles yaddy yaddy ya..... Sure he got injured but that's because Tampa overused him as a rookie but he ended up finishing strong and the rest is history...With DD sharing the load ala White then Bush will be well rested and his body will adjust better to the rigors of the NFL.

Mr. Clutch

01-09-2006, 07:35 PM

Let's make a chart in comparing Reggie Bush's and LenDale White's strenghts.

First, LenDale White:
- Better in short yardage situations and running over people because he's bigger.

Reggie Bush:
- Better at everything else.

VesceySux

01-09-2006, 08:53 PM

From a few scouts via ESPN NFL Insider:

As for Bush, he still projects as the probable No. 1 pick in April's draft by the Houston Texans.

"He still did enough Superman stunts to make you say, 'Wow,'" said one personnel man. "There aren't many players who make you go, 'Wow,' so he's got tremendous value to a team. Maybe he's not a 4.2 guy [in the 40] but he's got plenty of juice."

Now, USC running back LenDale White had all these guys pretty excited.

"That's an NFL back," said one scout. "He's 220 pounds-plus and he will be a big-timer in our league. He won't dazzle, but he's the type of guy with the right team who can win a rushing title and score a lot of touchdowns."

Baqui99

01-09-2006, 09:13 PM

Mr. Clutch

01-09-2006, 09:31 PM

You can't simple run to the outside in the NFL, as DBs and LBs are much faster at that level. That being said, Reggie Bush won't be able to change direction and cutback to avoid the initial hit. He can't wear down opposing defenses, and he'll be more of a Brian Westbrook type of back.

Tiki Barber and Warrick Dunn- combined for over 3,200 yards rushing last year.

Caddillac Williams, another smallish, quick back had an outstanding rookie campaign.

Baqui99

01-09-2006, 09:51 PM

Tiki Barber and Warrick Dunn- combined for over 3,200 yards rushing last year.

Caddillac Williams, another smallish, quick back had an outstanding rookie campaign.

None of the aforementioned guys are franchise backs like LT or Shaun Alexander. With the #1 overall pick, you have to hit a home run.

Desert Scar

01-10-2006, 09:33 AM

LenDale is good but nowhere near as versitle as Ronnie Brown. Brown could catch, block, do it all. If LenDale was a good blocker you would think USC would have him and Bush in their more. I would expect LenDale to be mid to late 1st round unless he runs a sub 4.5 or something at the combine. Heck Stephen Jackson lasted until then (late 1st) and he was more refined as a player with a similar frame.

Cadillac and Tiki were proven workhorses in college, and consistently productive inside or outside guys in college, Bush is not. Cad also went closer to 220, he he closer to Thomlinson's or the Edge's frame (particularly lower body strength) than Reggie Bush's frame.

Dunn, who had a more similar college game than Bush, has been better and more durable than I expected in the pros, I do admit. It is possible Bush falls somewhere between Dunn and Faulk, that would be one heck of a pro back. But I am not sold Bush will be that durable nor can sustain the pounding those guys could. Most durable smaller (< 220LBs) RBs (Payton, Emitt, Sanders) are much more compact and with thinker lower bodies than Bush. Some smaller RBs are freaks and don't get injured much (Dorsett, Faulk, Barber, Dunn), but I don't see how we can know whether Bush falls in that category, the fact he has not carried it a lot in college should not instill a ton of confidence he will have a sure fire long pro career. That is why it is not a "safer" or more sure fire pick to take Bush over VY or Leinart. If any Leinart is the "safest" prospect in the draft, but probably has lower upside than VY or Bush.

rrj_gamz

01-10-2006, 10:07 AM

I like LW, but we won't pick him...For the long term, LW will be better...To sell tickets & good PR, pick Bush, although I'm still hoping VY is picked by us...

DaDakota

01-10-2006, 11:29 AM

Lendale will have the better career of the 2.

DD

aburttschell

01-10-2006, 03:55 PM

None of the aforementioned guys are franchise backs like LT or Shaun Alexander. With the #1 overall pick, you have to hit a home run.
Reggie Bush has a similar build to LT, and has very similar skills. Hell they train together. Bush will be that type of player.

Groogrux

01-10-2006, 03:57 PM

Reggie Bush has a similar build to LT, and has very similar skills. Hell they train together. Bush will be that type of player.

Plus, he's rested up!

MadMax

01-10-2006, 03:59 PM

Reggie Bush has a similar build to LT, and has very similar skills. Hell they train together. Bush will be that type of player.

LT touches the ball about 25 times per game. i'll be surprised if bush does that.

aburttschell

01-10-2006, 04:05 PM

LT touches the ball about 25 times per game. i'll be surprised if bush does that.

LT has 21 carries per game. Bush is a 15-20 guy, who will probably get 4 catches a game. Not much of a difference even using conservative numbers.

Mr. Clutch

01-10-2006, 04:07 PM

LT touches the ball about 25 times per game. i'll be surprised if bush does that.

Tomlinson carried the ball 21.19 times per game this year and last year. He has never carried the ball 25 times per game.

If you count receptions, then its about 24 touches per game. But then you would also include Bush's kick and punt returns as touches.

Mr. Clutch

01-10-2006, 04:08 PM

LT has 21 carries per game. Bush is a 15-20 guy, who will probably get 4 catches a game. Not much of a difference even using conservative numbers.

Yep, plus he'll perhaps get fewer touches from not returning kicks and punts so he could carry a few more times.

MadMax

01-10-2006, 04:09 PM

Tomlinson carried the ball 21.19 times per game this year and last year. He has never carried the ball 25 times per game.

If you count receptions, then its about 24 touches per game. But then you would also include Bush's kick and punt returns as touches.

21 carries per game...and about 3-4 receptions a game for LT. That's 24-25 touches per game. Which is what I said.

Bush gets how many carries?? 15...do you think he'll get MORE carries per game in the NFL than he did in college? I would doubt that. So I'm guessing about 15 catches and 3-4 receptions. About 18-19 total touches per game.

I doubt very seriously that any team is gonna pay the money to select a guy as high as Bush will be taken...and have him still return punts and kicks. I just seriously doubt that.

Saint Louis

01-10-2006, 04:10 PM

If they could trade the 1st pick for several other picks, and use one of them to draft LenDale; then I would go that route. Add LenDale to Davis in the backfield and use the extra picks to fill the many gaping holes on the team.

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 04:13 PM

Yep, plus he'll perhaps get fewer touches from not returning kicks and punts so he could carry a few more times.

Bush is an average KR/PR, so there's no point in putting him back there.

MadMax

01-10-2006, 04:16 PM

Bush is an average KR/PR, so there's no point in putting him back there.

particularly when you have a pro bowler back there already. the only pro bowler on your team, mind you! :)

aburttschell

01-10-2006, 04:20 PM

Bush is an average KR/PR, so there's no point in putting him back there.

THis statement is so wrong. But the Texans won't risk him getting hurt during punt returns. BTW I do think Bush will get more than 3-4 catches a game.

MadMax

01-10-2006, 04:20 PM

wow..it's worse than i thought:

Bush averaged 11 carries per game...and 3.3 receptions. 14 TOUCHES per game.

White averaged 15.6 CARRIES per game...

MadMax

01-10-2006, 04:21 PM

THis statement is so wrong. But the Texans won't risk him getting hurt during punt returns. BTW I do think Bush will get more than 3-4 catches a game.

more than he did in college?

more than LT had??

pgabriel

01-10-2006, 04:21 PM

Tiki Barber's not a fair comparison. that dude has always ran up the middle in the pros, but I honestly can't say what he did in college though. I've never been high on the bush bandwagon, the guy is a highlight reel and very explosive.

If I knew he could be like Marshall Faulk, I would really have to debate between him or Young, but that's been my concern all along. personally I was a trade the pick guy. I just don't know, but he is spectacular, and I will admit, as much as the rose bowl game put Young more in the forefront, I was kind of impressed with what Bush did, because its obvious he never faced a defense that fast and lets admit, he still broke a couple.

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 04:23 PM

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/deion_sanders_a.jpg
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=deion+sanders/v=2/SID=e/l=IVI/SIG=126ad72gv/EXP=1137017612/*-http%3A//jesus_is_lord.tripod.com/Pics/Deion_pic.jpg
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=deion+sanders/v=2/SID=e/l=IVI/SIG=12io4rttm/EXP=1137017837/*-http%3A//www.sportsattic.com/nflphoto/photos2/Sanders,Deion5.jpg

There's alot of comparing of QB/RB as players comes in and out of the NFL. There's always great QB leaving Elway, Young, Montana, Favre and great ones playing Manning, Brady, Palmer. Same with RB Payton, ESmith, Sander and news ones LT, SAlexander, Faulk, Holmes, EJames.

but there will never be another DEION SANDER yeah Champ Baily comes closest but he doesnt even compare to what Sander could do in his Prime.

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 04:23 PM

THis statement is so wrong. But the Texans won't risk him getting hurt during punt returns. BTW I do think Bush will get more than 3-4 catches a game.

Bush averages 17 yards per KO return, and 9.9 yards per punt return, with only 1 TD on the year. That, my friend, is the definition of an average return man.

http://usctrojans.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/bush_reggie00.html

aburttschell

01-10-2006, 04:26 PM

21 carries per game...and about 3-4 receptions a game for LT. That's 24-25 touches per game. Which is what I said.

Bush gets how many carries?? 15...do you think he'll get MORE carries per game in the NFL than he did in college? I would doubt that. So I'm guessing about 15 catches and 3-4 receptions. About 18-19 total touches per game.

I doubt very seriously that any team is gonna pay the money to select a guy as high as Bush will be taken...and have him still return punts and kicks. I just seriously doubt that.

Yes, I do think Bush will get more carries in the NFL. Some of the games he had only 8 carries in, were blowouts. In games that actually meant something, Bush averaged around 18 carries per game.

Mr. Clutch

01-10-2006, 04:28 PM

wow..it's worse than i thought:

Bush averaged 11 carries per game...and 3.3 receptions. 14 TOUCHES per game.

White averaged 15.6 CARRIES per game...

THIS year- Reggie averaged 15 carries this past year plus about 3 receptions a game plus kickoff returns and punt returns. That's about 20 touches per game.

And do you think that all the scouts are just completely clueless and don't realize he hasn't gotten a ton of carries? Yet STILL he is a highly touted prospect. At WORST he is a #2 or #3 pick.

And we don't know if he can't do it in the NFL. Just like we don't know if Vince Young will be a good pocket passer. They are drafted partly on potential.

Mr. Clutch

01-10-2006, 04:30 PM

Yes, I do think Bush will get more carries in the NFL. Some of the games he had only 8 carries in, were blowouts. In games that actually meant something, Bush averaged around 18 carries per game.

Good point, didn't think about that. I also looked up Cadillac William's stats. He is a small quick RB. He got 230 carries his senior year, Bush got 200. Cadillac was TEARING it up!

The huge difference is Cadillac averaged 5-6 yards per carry. And we know Bush did WAY more than that!

MadMax

01-10-2006, 04:30 PM

THIS year- Reggie averaged 15 carries this past year plus about 3 receptions a game plus kickoff returns and punt returns. That's about 20 touches per game.

And do you think that all the scouts are just completely clueless and don't realize he hasn't gotten a ton of carries? Yet STILL he is a highly touted prospect. At WORST he is a #2 or #3 pick.

And we don't know if he can't do it in the NFL. Just like we don't know if Vince Young will be a good pocket passer. They are drafted partly on potential.

i agree with everything you just said.

Fatty FatBastard

01-10-2006, 04:34 PM

MadMax

01-10-2006, 04:35 PM

Hmmmm. I don't recall all of this arguing the last time the Texans had the first pick. Then again, there was no U of Texas Top 5 pick that year.

Bush is the proper choice for the Texans right now. All of Young's potential has clouded y'alls judgement on that.

Now stop arguing, or I'll simply take the pick away from you and give it to a team whose fans can behave.

right now?? because we're just that one player away from being a super bowl contender after our stellar 2-14 season and fresh on the heels to a tightly played game against the 49ers?

this is the part of the argument i truly don't get at all. the idea that we need to draft for right now because we need to start winning immediately. it can't get any worse than last season....not likely to, anyway.

pgabriel

01-10-2006, 04:42 PM

Hmmmm. I don't recall all of this arguing the last time the Texans had the first pick. Then again, there was no U of Texas Top 5 pick that year.

.

I wasn't on this board back when they picked carr, but I was Julius peppers fan. but even if there weren't many people looking at peppers such as myself, I'm sure there were a lot of joey harrington fans.

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 04:42 PM

right now?? because we're just that one player away from being a super bowl contender after our stellar 2-14 season and fresh on the heels to a tightly played game against the 49ers?

this is the part of the argument i truly don't get at all. the idea that we need to draft for right now because we need to start winning immediately. it can't get any worse than last season....not likely to, anyway.

Exactly. Reggie Bush isn't going to make a bit of difference on a 2-14 team. This team needs to build for the future, and Vince, the most exciting pro prospect from Texas in years, is the right guy to build your team around.

Bush is nothing more than a Desmond Howard/Rocket Ismail/Eric Melcalf type hybrid WR/TB.

thegary

01-10-2006, 04:43 PM

it can't get any worse than last season....not likely to, anyway.

no, i'd say LAST ****ING PLACE is about as bad as it gets, excuse my french. :)

Fatty FatBastard

01-10-2006, 04:43 PM

right now?? because we're just that one player away from being a super bowl contender after our stellar 2-14 season and fresh on the heels to a tightly played game against the 49ers?

this is the part of the argument i truly don't get at all. the idea that we need to draft for right now because we need to start winning immediately. it can't get any worse than last season....not likely to, anyway.

Maybe, but one of the few areas we don't need to fill is QB.

If VY were a fantastic top 3 pick receiver, would you trade Andre to get him? Let's assume there's only one receiver per team, for arguments sake.

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 04:47 PM

Exactly. Reggie Bush isn't going to make a bit of difference on a 2-14 team. This team needs to build for the future, and Vince, the most exciting pro prospect from Texas in years, is the right guy to build your team around.

Bush is nothing more than a Desmond Howard/Rocket Ismail/Eric Melcalf type hybrid WR/TB.

Vince is nothing more than a poor man's Randall Cunningham/Aaron Brook

Raven Lunatic

01-10-2006, 04:51 PM

Yes, I do think Bush will get more carries in the NFL. Some of the games he had only 8 carries in, were blowouts. In games that actually meant something, Bush averaged around 18 carries per game.

This is actually an excellent point. Many UT fans will use this argument as reason why Vince Young's stats are less than what they might have been normally (saw it a lot during the pre-NC Leinart, VY debates), but no one considers it when talking about Bush. USC had plenty of blowouts this season as well. In those games, I'm sure Bush didn't get as many carries as he normally would. Now, one can point to the NC game as a close game when Bush didn't touch the ball much, but it was pretty apparent that UT was gameplanning to stop Bush and not worrying much about White, who was the back that ran all over them. For that reason, I can understand Carrol going away from using Bush.

Now, having said all that, I still think VY would be the better choice.

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 04:56 PM

Vince is nothing more than a poor man's Randall Cunningham/Aaron Brook

BWAHAHAAHAHHA!!! Aaron Brooks?

Aaron Brooks' senior season at UVA:
http://virginiasports.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/va-m-footbl-97stats.html

84 carries, 227 yards, 2.7 ypc, 5 TD
156-290, 2319 yards passing, 12 TD, 9 INT, 128.4 EFF

Vince Young's junior year at Texas:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/stats?playerId=135107
155 carries, 1050 yards, 6.8 ypc, 12 TD
212-325, 3036 yards passing, 26 TD, 10 INT, 163.95 EFF

you've been OWNED

Raven Lunatic

01-10-2006, 04:58 PM

Maybe, but one of the few areas we don't need to fill is QB.

If VY were a fantastic top 3 pick receiver, would you trade Andre to get him? Let's assume there's only one receiver per team, for arguments sake.

Not a good comparison. WRs don't have NEAR the impact on games that QB does. Even if they did, Andre Johnson is already a top 5 receiver (despite his stats last season), most believe. So odds that a top 3 receiver will upgrade that is low. Most don't believe Carr is anywhere near that good nor will he ever be.

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 05:05 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c2/SICunningham1989.jpg/300px-SICunningham1989.jpg

=

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050104/050104_vinceYoung_vmed_8p.widec.jpg

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 05:08 PM

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/football/ncaa/08/28/bc.fbc.usc.vatech.ap/p1_bush_ap.jpg

=

http://www.bluestarboys.com/Gallery/TDorsett%20(4).jpg

Leading Rusher With 12,739 Yards at Retirement (Currently #5)

pgabriel

01-10-2006, 05:11 PM

Randall is a good comparison skill wise, but Randall threw a better ball (throwing motion) Randall's passes were beautiful but Randall was a flake leadership wise.

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 05:12 PM

And who's in the Hall of Fame? ;)

pgabriel

01-10-2006, 05:14 PM

And who's in the Hall of Fame? ;)

com'on dude, who played on some of the greatest teams ever, Dorsett played for the first Cowboy Dynasty.

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 05:15 PM

com'on dude, who played on some of the greatest teams ever, Dorsett played for the first Cowboy Dynasty.

Well I'm just saying who would you rather have?

Randall Cunningham or Tony Dorsett?

I think them two are = to VY/Bush

IC2000

01-10-2006, 05:17 PM

BWAHAHAAHAHHA!!! Aaron Brooks?

Aaron Brooks' senior season at UVA:
http://virginiasports.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/va-m-footbl-97stats.html

84 carries, 227 yards, 2.7 ypc, 5 TD
156-290, 2319 yards passing, 12 TD, 9 INT, 128.4 EFF

Vince Young's junior year at Texas:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/stats?playerId=135107
155 carries, 1050 yards, 6.8 ypc, 12 TD
212-325, 3036 yards passing, 26 TD, 10 INT, 163.95 EFF

you've been OWNED

Dont use the word owned first, also don't make me pull up omar jacobs or cody hodges stats

IC2000

01-10-2006, 05:18 PM

Randall is a good comparison skill wise, but Randall threw a better ball (throwing motion) Randall's passes were beautiful but Randall was a flake leadership wise.

Vince is Kordell Stewart, someone brought it up today. That is exactly who he will be. Only difference is Vince is faster and not gay.

Luckyazn

01-10-2006, 05:20 PM

In 1990 Randall Cunningham 6'4 215lbs

3466 passing yrds 942 rushing yrds

In 2005 Vince Young 6'5 233lbs

3036 passing yrds 1050 rushing yrds

SamCassell

01-10-2006, 05:35 PM

Dont use the word owned first, also don't make me pull up omar jacobs or cody hodges stats

Cody Hodges? 109 rushes for 191 rushing yards in 2005. 6'2", 210 and slow.

Omar Jacobs? 40 rushes for 62 yards in 2005. For a 6-5 mediocre team.

Kordell Stewart? 6'1". 635 yards was his highest career rushing total in college. 537 yards was his highest rushing total in the pros. Not a 1st round draft pick.

You're really reaching now and making yourself look foolish with comparisons to guys like Jacobs, Stewart and Hodges. None of them have the gifts Vince does.

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 05:37 PM

In 1990 Randall Cunningham 6'4 215lbs

3466 passing yrds 942 rushing yrds

In 2005 Vince Young 6'5 233lbs

3036 passing yrds 1050 rushing yrds

Randall Cunningham, 1990 NFC Offensive MVP.

That's pretty badass.

http://football.about.com/library/weekly/bl_awardsnfcpoy.htm

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 05:37 PM

Cody Hodges? 109 rushes for 191 rushing yards in 2005. 6'2", 210 and slow.

Omar Jacobs? 40 rushes for 62 yards in 2005. For a 6-5 mediocre team.

Kordell Stewart? 6'1". 635 yards was his highest career rushing total in college. 537 yards was his highest rushing total in the pros. Not a 1st round draft pick.

You're really reaching now and making yourself look foolish with comparisons to guys like Jacobs, Stewart and Hodges. None of them have the gifts Vince does.

IC2000 -> the epitome of self ownage.

pgabriel

01-10-2006, 05:46 PM

Randall Cunningham, 1990 NFC Offensive MVP.

That's pretty badass.

http://football.about.com/library/weekly/bl_awardsnfcpoy.htm

I don't know what point he was trying to make but that season also prompted the cover he put. Randall was thought to be the future. He just couldn't sustain.

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 05:48 PM

I don't know what point he was trying to make but that season also prompted the cover he put. Randall was thought to be the future. He just couldn't sustain.

I think he broke his leg in 1992, which pretty much ruined his career. He did have a ridiculous comeback with the Vikings in '99 when he led them to 15-1.

IC2000

01-10-2006, 05:48 PM

Baqui99

01-10-2006, 05:48 PM

You missed the point on this. Stats are not everything!!!!! I was referring to their passing stats

Stop embarassing yourself. You are a joke.

IC2000

01-10-2006, 05:55 PM

Stop embarassing yourself. You are a joke.
Good strategy loser, when you are wrong just avoid my responses and call me a joke.

SamFisher

01-10-2006, 06:07 PM

Good point, didn't think about that. I also looked up Cadillac William's stats. He is a small quick RB. He got 230 carries his senior year, Bush got 200. Cadillac was TEARING it up!

The huge difference is Cadillac averaged 5-6 yards per carry. And we know Bush did WAY more than that!

Are you kidding? Have you seen Cadillac Williams play? I am guessing not.

He is not big, but since his freshman year of college and currently in the NFL, he has been the prototypical between the tackles pure tailback. He had 700 plus career carries (would have had more had he not had a broken leg one year) as opposed to Bush's 390.

Likewise he has bulked up to 217 lbs with the Bucs in order to take the NFL pounding. He is not a "small quick rb" in the mold of Bush at all.

SamFisher

01-10-2006, 06:10 PM