Enough with this Vince Young jocking!

[YaoMing]

People,

Vince Young is a good player no doubt, but I have a few names for your:

Tommy Frasier
Akili SMith
Charlie Ward
Michael Vick

All those QB's dominated at the college level at running the ball, and only Vick has proven to be good in the NFL (hardly). In fact, Tommy Frasier did the exact same thing that Vince has done, win a national title on running the ball. Where does that bring us? To reality!!! Sorry folks, but if you think Vince Young is going to play at the NFL level the way he did in the Rose Bowl... then you have gone mad.

Where were you peeps a week ago? How come the Reggie Bush loving was going on all year, and after ONE game you have changed your minds? I cant stand people making thier decisions on this one game, and the fact that he is from Houston. Use your heads!

The reason the Texans sucked so bad this year was because of poor coaching and the wrong system being in place. David Carr deserves another chance not only because of this, but because he has proven he can win in the 2 previous seasons. Our defense was just GOD AWFUL this year and that ruined it all.

Listen, Reggie Bush is by far the most dynamic player in this draft, and probably all previous drafts. There is a reason why it is being reported that Reggie Bush WILL be the texans #1 pick. Bob Mcnair knows what you all need to clear your head and realize.... Bush makes us a better team while Vince Young would set us back.

Dont Worry.... You will come to your senses soon enough.

[MadMax]

1. did you need a new thread for this??

2. i'm sorry...did you just compare tommy frazier's passing ability to vince's?

3. i know..the rest of us are all dumb. you're the only one using your head. of course, point 2, above indicates you're not. but even still.

[twoface723]

Vimce has speed and SIZE...

[Smokey]

LOL a user named Yao Ming talking about a player who will be a bust.

[white lightning]

Just for the record, Akili Smith was never a dominant runner. He was strictly a passing QB, with some scrambling ability.

[YaoMing]

"Team and league sources told ESPN's Chris Mortensen that the Texans will pass on Young, a Houston native, and select USC running back Reggie Bush with the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft, pending the formality of Bush announcing that he is turning pro.

Almost nothing will change that course, the sources told Mortensen.

The Texans will pick up an $8 million option on quarterback David Carr, who was the expansion team's first draft pick four years ago. Texans owner Bob McNair made the decision after getting extensive evaluations from various sources that strongly endorsed Carr, including a favorable report from Dan Reeves, the former longtime NFL coach hired last month as a consultant."

[YaoMing]

Mel Kiper's top six players

1. Reggie Bush, USC RB (Pending Bush entering draft)
2. Matt Leinart, USC QB
3. Vince Young, Texas QB
4. Mario Williams DE, NC State
5. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT, Virginia
6. A.J. Hawk, LB, Ohio State

[The Real Shady]

"Team and league sources told ESPN's Chris Mortensen that the Texans will pass on Young, a Houston native, and select USC running back Reggie Bush with the No. 1 pick in the NFL draft, pending the formality of Bush announcing that he is turning pro.

Almost nothing will change that course, the sources told Mortensen.

The Texans will pick up an $8 million option on quarterback David Carr, who was the expansion team's first draft pick four years ago. Texans owner Bob McNair made the decision after getting extensive evaluations from various sources that strongly endorsed Carr, including a favorable report from Dan Reeves, the former longtime NFL coach hired last month as a consultant."

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/dis...ts/3572378.html

Not so fast, ESPN

Don't believe two reports on ESPN and ESPN.com regarding the Texans on Saturday.

The first one said the Texans were talking to the Titans about possible compensation for coach Jeff Fisher. Anyone with any common sense would know that there is no way that Tennessee owner Bud Adams would let his head coach come to the Texans.

The second report said the Texans had decided they would take USC running back Reggie Bush, which was true before Vince Young's spectacular performance in the Rose Bowl. But the ESPN report also said that even if Young comes out early the Texans already have made up their minds to take Bush with the first pick.

Also not true. The Texans have not even begun their evaluation of Young because few thought he would leave the Longhorns a year early.

"It's premature to say anything until our new coaching staff gets in, and they are able to analyze our team, the draft and what happens in free agency," Texans general manager Charley Casserly said Saturday.

[Kam]

People,

Vince Young is a good player no doubt, but I have a few names for your:

Tommy Frasier
Akili SMith
Charlie Ward
Michael Vick




Charlie Ward never played in the NFL. Neither did Tommie Frazier.

[SamFisher]

1. did you need a new thread for this??

2. i'm sorry...did you just compare tommy frazier's passing ability to vince's?

3. i know..the rest of us are all dumb. you're the only one using your head. of course, point 2, above indicates you're not. but even still.

I love it when MadMax brings the wood, and on a Sunday!

[IC2000]

People,

Vince Young is a good player no doubt, but I have a few names for your:

Tommy Frasier
Akili SMith
Charlie Ward
Michael Vick

All those QB's dominated at the college level at running the ball, and only Vick has proven to be good in the NFL (hardly). In fact, Tommy Frasier did the exact same thing that Vince has done, win a national title on running the ball. Where does that bring us? To reality!!! Sorry folks, but if you think Vince Young is going to play at the NFL level the way he did in the Rose Bowl... then you have gone mad.

Where were you peeps a week ago? How come the Reggie Bush loving was going on all year, and after ONE game you have changed your minds? I cant stand people making thier decisions on this one game, and the fact that he is from Houston. Use your heads!

The reason the Texans sucked so bad this year was because of poor coaching and the wrong system being in place. David Carr deserves another chance not only because of this, but because he has proven he can win in the 2 previous seasons. Our defense was just GOD AWFUL this year and that ruined it all.

Listen, Reggie Bush is by far the most dynamic player in this draft, and probably all previous drafts. There is a reason why it is being reported that Reggie Bush WILL be the texans #1 pick. Bob Mcnair knows what you all need to clear your head and realize.... Bush makes us a better team while Vince Young would set us back.

Dont Worry.... You will come to your senses soon enough.

Thanks Yao! AMEN! Bush in 06

[IC2000]

Charlie Ward never played in the NFL. Neither did Tommie Frazier.

Exactly his point genius

[insane man]

LOL a user named Yao Ming talking about a player who will be a bust.

are you calling yao ming a bust?

[SamFisher]

Exactly his point genius

So you're worried that Vince will go to the NBA like Ward?

Yeah, that's a possibility, genius.

BTW, though I didn't follow that much, don't you have a MASSIVE, foot-long burnt orange crow sandwich to try to cram down your throat at some point as you make your re-entry into the world of bashing UT/Vince Young? Would you like some bearnaise sauce to go with it?

[sabirk]

are you calling yao ming a bust?


I think he means that people thought Yao would be a bust but he wasn't.

[raw10628]

Did Frazier, Ward, or Vick ever throw for 2500 and rush for 1000. I don't think so because the ONLY player to ever do that is about to come out in the draft, you might have heard of him, Vince Young. You can't compare him to other running QB's he is superior to them in the passing game. They were strictly running quarterbacks that could never find their niche as a passer. VY has already shown that he is a true dual threat quarterback.

[Kam]

Exactly his point genius

Unlike those scrubs, VY will play on sundays.

VY won't be playing for a basketball team, (even though I'm sure he can run the point for an NBA team), or selling Insurance.

At least Akili Smith threw a football once in the NFL.

[MadMax]

Exactly his point genius

well, it's not a very good point is it then? because there's no question that young will be drafted very, very high in this draft. i don't believe either ward or frazier were taken at all.

look...at worst, vy is going #3. before the rose bowl he was still a top 6 pick.

and raw is right. you're talking about a QB who just threw for 2500 yards. this isn't just a scrambling QB. this isn't mike vick. there's not a bigger mike vick critic on this board than me. i don't want mike vick. but you can bet your ass i want VY on my team.

[raw10628]

Don't forget that Young also led the nation in passer rating. I don't think the others were even aware of the term passer rating.

[rdsgonzo13]

There's a reason why QB's go #1 very often and RB's rarely, rarely do.

RB's are relatively easy to find. Their careers are shorter than average NFL careers. The dropoff from a good RB to a decent RB isn't that great. Their games depend heavily on the quality of talent around them (OL, passing game).

QB is far and away the most important position on the field. Their careers last much longer than RB's. The dropoff from good QB to mediocre is huge. Good QB's, esp in this era of the NFL, are ridiculously hard to find. QB's can make players around them better and are the leaders of the team. RB's aren't.

If you want to pass on a potential franchise QB to draft an RB, he has to be an overwhelmingly better talent. Don't think that can be said about Bush, who in the biggest game of his career, was determined to be the 2nd best running option on his own team by a highly respected coach.

You could just as easily name guys like

Warrick Dunn
Eric Metcalf
Brian Westbrook

to compare Reggie Bush too. Bush ran behind an OL in college which paved massive holes. He won't have that in the NFL going to a team with a top 5 pick. In short yardage situations and goalline which are vital in the NFL, Bush won't even be on the field. That lowers his value. He's slight of build as well and looks really mediocre running between the tackles. Hardly a sure thing himself.

[Kam]

Ron Dayne.

[Dubious]

Did you even get a whiff of Vince's jock?

It smells....like The Beach.

[Kam]

it actually smells like a mid summer breeze.


not that ive ever sniffed it.

[pgabriel]

wow, and you managed to pick all black qb's two of whom never played in the NFL and one who was a pure drop back passer, Akili. So of the four, two are irrelevant, one was nothing like Young other than he's black, and the last Vick, may not have stats but his team wins a LOT more than the Texans.


awesome thread.

[Kam]

wow, and you managed to pick all black qb's two of whom never played in the NFL and one who was a pure drop back passer, Akili. So of the four, two are irrelevant, one was nothing like Young other than he's black, and the last Vick, may not have stats but his team wins a LOT more than the Texans.


awesome thread.




That's kinda F'ed up and funny at the same time.

I just totally realized that they were all black qbs.

Honestly, I thought all of us were past the whole black qb thing.

[The Cat]

Did Tommie Frazier lead the nation in passing efficiency in addition to being able to run the ball and have the size of Vince Young?

If not, there's no comparison. Same for Ward, Smith and any of the others you mentioned.

Next.

[kevwun]

Vince Young threw for 3,000 yards this past season, not 2,500.

[Desert Scar]

Where were you peeps a week ago? How come the Reggie Bush loving was going on all year, and after ONE game you have changed your minds? I cant stand people making thier decisions on this one game, and the fact that he is from Houston. Use your heads!.

I have been saying all season Reggie Bush is a spectacular 15-20 touch player, but overrated as a college football player and pro prospect because enough plays can't go through him. The Rose Bowl just confirmed what I had been saying and allowed people to see through the hype about Bush and to see where the Heisman should have landed.

A team would be fools to pass on a franchise QB (be it Young or Leinart) for a part time RB/specialty player.

The Texans should take VY or trade down to someone who pays a pretty penny for a shot at a franchise QB.

BTW Roger Staubach was a running QB and he became pretty decent throwing QB. Steve Young, Elway, and McNabb have great legs too, even if not quite like VY. I don't see their mobility making them inferior players. Those are just as apt comparisons than Vick.

People forget VY lead the nation in passing efficiency, and was 30-40 with no INTs in the biggest college football game in years. He has questions like all draftees (e.g., low delivery, does he have a cannon for deep outs?) but his physical qualities and leadership qualities are too phenomenal to pass up.

[Joe Joe]

VY did not finish as the top rated passer after the bowls. He finished third.

Still great. I think Bush is a great player as well. I just don't choose him over Young who I didn't think would enter this draft.

[Bassfly]

those quarterbacks are all undersized. vy is a legitimate 6'5 and probably pushing 6'6. height and size are one of the most important physical attributes for a qb prospect.

[The Cat]

VY did not finish as the top rated passer after the bowls. He finished third.

Still great. I think Bush is a great player as well. I just don't choose him over Young who I didn't think would enter this draft.

Including bowl games in passer rating is dumb because of the huge difference in competition that quarterbacks face. The Rose Bowl is a harder environment to pass in than the Fort Worth Bowl, for example. I realize that this is also true during the regular season, but there are 11-12 games for these things to even themselves out. There's such a dramatic difference in the quality of opposition from bowl to bowl that I don't think it should be seriously considered.

[thacabbage]

Thanks Yao! AMEN! Bush in 06
Did Vince Young impregnate your wife or something? You really have a suspicious vendetta against him.

[Bassfly]

to reiterate about the height thing. the line is so fine between being 6'3 and 6'4 it makes all the difference in where a qb can get drafted. its similar to a wr who runs between a 4.4 and a 4.5 in the 40

[The Cat]

Did Vince Young impregnate your wife or something? You really have a suspicious vendetta against him.

It's not suspicious; it's aggy. Makes perfect sense.

They're still calling him "radio" and claiming Reggie McNeal would be just as good if he only had the talent around him.

[Kam]

IC2000 went to Madison High School.

He was the backup QB to Vince.

If it wasn't for Vince, IC2000 would be at UT playing for the National Championship.

[slowmustang]

At one point in time, Mike Vick led the nation with his QB rating too. There goes that argument. There's no doubt that Vince has improved but if you wanna go by stats, just pick any Tech QB. They get critized for being a product of a system but Vince isnt? Vince does the same thing that Alex Smith did with the zone read. I'm not a VOH or anything, I would love to have him. But people just need to be rational. There's no point in discussing this right now anyway. Wait til after the workouts and at least there will be something to base all of this speculation on.

[vlaurelio]

Did Vince Young impregnate your wife or something? You really have a suspicious vendetta against him.

he cost him his house

[The Cat]

At one point in time, Mike Vick led the nation with his QB rating too. There goes that argument. There's no doubt that Vince has improved but if you wanna go by stats, just pick any Tech QB. They get critized for being a product of a system but Vince isnt? Vince does the same thing that Alex Smith did with the zone read. I'm not a VOH or anything, I would love to have him. But people just need to be rational. There's no point in discussing this right now anyway. Wait til after the workouts and at least there will be something to base all of this speculation on.

Can you show me where Vick led the nation with his QB rating for an entire regular season? Unless you can, that argument is still valid.

[dc rock]

Including bowl games in passer rating is dumb because of the huge difference in competition that quarterbacks face. The Rose Bowl is a harder environment to pass in than the Fort Worth Bowl, for example. I realize that this is also true during the regular season, but there are 11-12 games for these things to even themselves out. There's such a dramatic difference in the quality of opposition from bowl to bowl that I don't think it should be seriously considered.


Where did USC's defense rank compared to other bowl teams ?

They gave up over 40 points to Fresno State and like 30 to Arizona State.

[gr8-1]

I remember Ward being a good passer.


The original poster lumped all of these qbs together because they all happen to be black. They're all very different though.

[The Cat]

Where did USC's defense rank compared to other bowl teams ?

They gave up over 40 points to Fresno State and like 30 to Arizona State.

Don't give that to me now. I told you folks and many others that before the game. I was told that USC was just bored in those games... that they had more defensive speed than even Ohio State... that it was going to be a new dimension for VY and it was too much to overcome. I see the point, and I've heard it mentioned by Chris Mortensen and others. But it's hard to accept that line of logic when they were saying the exact opposite before the game.

[gr8-1]

Thanks Yao! AMEN! Bush in 06

Did you goto USC?

[gr8-1]

Don't give that to me now. I told you folks and many others that before the game. I was told that USC was just bored in those games... that they had more defensive speed than even Ohio State... that it was going to be a new dimension for VY and it was too much to overcome. I see the point, and I've heard it mentioned by Chris Mortensen and others. But it's hard to accept that line of logic when they were saying the exact opposite before the game.


So true. VY and UT are damned if they do and damned if they don't on this board.




Make no mistake though, that SC defense will have alot of nflers.

[dc rock]

Don't give that to me now. I told you folks and many others that before the game. I was told that USC was just bored in those games... that they had more defensive speed than even Ohio State... that it was going to be a new dimension for VY and it was too much to overcome. I see the point, and I've heard it mentioned by Chris Mortensen and others. But it's hard to accept that line of logic when they were saying the exact opposite before the game.

I dont even understand that reply. I'm not one of the "folks" you're referring to. I'm not a fan of USC. I didnt pick them to win against Texas. I thought they lost to Notre Dame ( thanks to poor officiating they didn't). USC does not have a good defense. I thought that before, I think that afterwards...

[The Cat]

I dont even understand that reply. I'm not one of the "folks" you're referring to. I'm not a fan of USC. I didnt pick them to win against Texas. I thought they lost to Notre Dame ( thanks to poor officiating they didn't). USC does not have a good defense. I thought that before, I think that afterwards...

Then you're the exception to the rule, because it was pretty difficult to find anyone but the Texas diehards giving Texas much of a chance in that game, at least publically. USC might not have a great defense, but Ohio State did. Oklahoma's was very good. Even Kansas had a good defense. Vince has done it in big games (USC, Michigan, Ohio State, OU), against good defenses, in easy games - you name it, he's been this dominant. It isn't like we're overreacting to one game.

If you were referring to my point that the competition in bowl games is different, that's still the case. Although USC's defense isn't great, it's still better than that of UH, for example. Statistics such as passer rating are more valid if they're regular seaon only - much like they are in the NFL.

[Joe Joe]

Including bowl games in passer rating is dumb because of the huge difference in competition that quarterbacks face.

College stats are imprecise barometers for the most part since a given team plays only about 10% of the teams. I don't make up the way stats are kept. I just want people to be accurate when they cite stats.

It doesn't change the fact that Vince Young was Lord and Master to all the other college players this year.

[Hakeem06]

Tommy Frasier -- are you really comparing a OPTION quarterback with NO passing ability to a guy who completed over 65% of his passes and threw for over 3,000 yards?

Akili SMith -- he was a below average runner in college who rushed for 184 yards his senior year. he was not a dual threat qb, and comleted 58% of his passes. Not getting this comparison.

Charlie Ward -- unfortunately we will never know how ward would have fared as a pro FOOTBALL player. i don't understand why he's on a list of guys who "busted" as pros. he decided to play basketball for a living, shouldn't even be on this list.

Michael Vick -- as far as college stats and passing ability goes, he doesn't even compare to vince. he was hampered by injuries as a sophomore but he threw for 1,234 yards and 8 TD's, completing 54% of his passes and rushed for 607 yards and 8 touchdowns. and his freshman season was his best as he threw for 1,840 yards and 12 touchdowns, completing 59% of his passes and rushed for 585 yards and 8 TD's.


when you look at the college careers of these other qb's you mention, vince is head and shoulders above ALL of them. he improved so much between last season and this season as a passer it's really unbelievable. at the time of entering their respective drafts, vince young is by far the most complete of all these listed qb's and a lot of others as well.

[jay_09]

I have A couple of names

1. Steve McNair
2. Donovan McNabb
3. Daunte Cullpepper
4. John Elway
5. Steve Young

4 of the five have went to a Super Bowl, and 2 of them have won one.

[pgabriel]

If you really want to look for a guy similar, all you have to do is look at last year's number one pick. Alex Smith had the second highest passer rating after the season, was a good rusher, ran the same offense, even quarterbacked an undefeated BCS team.

unfortunately, if anyone has looked like a complete bust their first year in the NFL, its Mr. Smith. But he did beat the Texans.

[gr8-1]

Akili SMith -- Not getting this comparison.




You remember that scene from Lethal Weapon two? "He's blick." :D

[apostolic3]

I ask those who think VY is a near sure bet to succeed in the NFL a question:

Remember when UT had the ball down by 12 (~6 minutes left) and VY threw his only bad pass of the game, a wild throw across the field that was up for grabs? What if USC had made the pick, scored another TD and won the game going away? Would you still be screaming for the Texans to take him #1 if UT had lost the game this way instead of winning?

I ask this because too much stock is being put into this one game (or even one play). VY may be a great NFL QB one day, but destroying a mediocre college defense in a big game doesn't prove he will. When he gets drilled by a safety or linebacker after a run or intercepted, opposing defenses are going to remind him "This isn't the Rose Bowl".

I like Vince and will follow him wherever he goes in the NFL. I want him to become a superstar. But let's have some perspective here. One great college game has radically changed opinions about Vince, but his prospects as an NFL QB are the same as before: Big question mark.

[Nick]

I ask those who think VY is a near sure bet to succeed in the NFL a question:

Remember when UT had the ball down by 12 (~6 minutes left) and VY threw his only bad pass of the game, a wild throw across the field that was up for grabs? What if USC had made the pick, scored another TD and won the game going away? Would you still be screaming for the Texans to take him #1 if UT had lost the game this way instead of winning?

I ask this because too much stock is being put into this one game (or even one play). VY may be a great NFL QB one day, but destroying a mediocre college defense in a big game doesn't prove he will. When he gets drilled by a safety or linebacker after a run or intercepted, opposing defenses are going to remind him "This isn't the Rose Bowl".

I like Vince and will follow him wherever he goes in the NFL. I want him to become a superstar. But let's have some perspective here. One great college game has radically changed opinions about Vince, but his prospects as an NFL QB are the same as before: Big question mark.

And Reggie Bush is question mark free? Frankly, I think he's a BIGGER risk because you don't know if his body will hold up when you ask him to carry the work-load of an AVERAGE NFL running back... let alone a franchise one.

Reggie sounds like he needs the perfect system installed to do what he does best... and even then, you won't know if he'll succeed because we don't have enough talent to divert the attention of the opposing teams' defense (there's a reason why guys like Randy Moss can be contained... teams do everything to stop them).

Either way, both players are studs, and both players can eventually be pro-bowlers... but I just think Vince is a better fit given that its Houston, he just won the national championship, and he plays a more important position.

Also, none of us were expecting Vince to come out... and even though we knew he had this type of game in him (hell, we saw it in the 2005 Rose Bowl), the proximity of it to the draft definitely helps... even if it is just one game.

[hoang17]

I ask those who think VY is a near sure bet to succeed in the NFL a question:

Remember when UT had the ball down by 12 (~6 minutes left) and VY threw his only bad pass of the game, a wild throw across the field that was up for grabs? What if USC had made the pick, scored another TD and won the game going away? Would you still be screaming for the Texans to take him #1 if UT had lost the game this way instead of winning?

I ask this because too much stock is being put into this one game (or even one play). VY may be a great NFL QB one day, but destroying a mediocre college defense in a big game doesn't prove he will. When he gets drilled by a safety or linebacker after a run or intercepted, opposing defenses are going to remind him "This isn't the Rose Bowl".

I like Vince and will follow him wherever he goes in the NFL. I want him to become a superstar. But let's have some perspective here. One great college game has radically changed opinions about Vince, but his prospects as an NFL QB are the same as before: Big question mark.

I think this is going to be the 1,043 time i'm going to say this, and i'm not calling just you out but lets try to put this to rest:

Vince Young's Performance in the Rose Bowl isn't the one and only reason why fans have all of sudden jumped on the "Draft Vince" Bandwagon. Vince's performance in the Rose Bowl is what made his decision to come out and enter the NFL Draft. We as fans, didn't consider him for the #1 pick because from every media report in the nation, Vince was going to go back for his senior year before the Rose Bowl. He was going to go back because he felt like he wasn't going to be a top 5 pick and therefore, was gonna head back to Austin for his senior year.

And if anything, I feel like Reggie Bush has the same amount if not more question marks around him than Vince. Can Reggie run in between the tackles in the NFL? Can he carry the ball 20+ times consistently for 16 games? Why did the Heisman Trophy winner only carry the ball 13 times and wasn't in some of the most important plays of the game, in the most important game of the season?

I, like most other people, was on the "Draft Reggie" bandwagon the last couple of weeks but that's because I felt that Vince was gonna go back for his senior season. I have watched Vince play when I was a student up in Austin and now and it wasn't just the Rose Bowl that convinced me he's gonna be a truly special player. When the longhorns got the ball with 2 minutes left and down by 5, I had no doubt in my mind that he was going to find a way to win that game.

Let me ask everyone here something: What has David Carr in the last 4 years done that warrants an $8 million dollar bonus? Granted he's played behind a s*it offensive line, I feel like he's regressed and maybe to the point where it can't be fixed. I just think it's time to cut the chord. Both parties need a fresh start and a new scenery.

[Hakeem06]

One great college game has radically changed opinions about Vince, but his prospects as an NFL QB are the same as before: Big question mark.

my opinion hasn't changed about vince unlike some people who just saw him play that one game in the rose bowl. i've seen the vast improvement in his passing and knowledge of the game just from last season alone. he's put in a lot of hard work and it has paid off for him and that's why i don't see that "big" question mark. he's a guy with a ton of talent and a terrific work ethic and guy who just cares about winning. there are no questions marks in any of that.

and as far as that "near" interception in the 4th, do you know how many plays there are like that through out the course of EVERY football game. give me a break. what about matt leinart's near interception by drew kelson. that would have changed the game dramatically too. there are so many plays that "almost" happen, but you know what, they didn't happen. you focus on the ones that did.

[The Real Shady]

I have A couple of names

1. Steve McNair
2. Donovan McNabb
3. Daunte Cullpepper
4. John Elway
5. Steve Young

4 of the five have went to a Super Bowl, and 2 of them have won one.

I think Steve McNair would be the most comparable to VY because of his clutch play and how hard he used is to bring down. McNair has a stronger arm, but VY is a more fluid runner.

VY Legs = Randall Cunningham
VY Arm = Bernie Kosar
VY Clutch Play = John Elway

[Mr. Brightside]

Exactly his point genius


Large, pepperoni, extra cheese please.

[rhester]

Vince Young is the best prospect to come out in years.

No one believes he can do it really at the pro level or teams would be salivating over him.

He will prove the 'experts' wrong.

Casserly will be fired in the next couple of seasons after further ruining the franchise.

Texan fans don't even think we are going anywhere the next 3-4 seasons, it will take years to recover from passing on VYoung.

Passing on Young= passing on Hakeem and not drafting MJ.

Casserly= John McMullen

[KingCheetah]

I ask those who think VY is a near sure bet to succeed in the NFL a question:

Remember when UT had the ball down by 12 (~6 minutes left) and VY threw his only bad pass of the game, a wild throw across the field that was up for grabs? What if USC had made the pick, scored another TD and won the game going away?

This proves that God loves Vince Young.



INTANGIBLES

[apostolic3]

my opinion hasn't changed about vince unlike some people who just saw him play that one game in the rose bowl. i've seen the vast improvement in his passing and knowledge of the game just from last season alone. he's put in a lot of hard work and it has paid off for him and that's why i don't see that "big" question mark. he's a guy with a ton of talent and a terrific work ethic and guy who just cares about winning. there are no questions marks in any of that.

and as far as that "near" interception in the 4th, do you know how many plays there are like that through out the course of EVERY football game. give me a break. what about matt leinart's near interception by drew kelson. that would have changed the game dramatically too. there are so many plays that "almost" happen, but you know what, they didn't happen. you focus on the ones that did.
If Leinart had been intercepted by Kelson it wouldn't have changed anyone's opinion about him. My point was would be so many people be on Vince's bandwagon if the outcome had been different.

Some of you say Vince coming out is what changed your mind, not his spectacular game. Maybe so, but it's obvious his one game performance in this year's Rose Bowl has stirred up a hornets nets. I say if UT had not won the game, VY would be coming back and few would question it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, Vince will be drafted high, sign a multi-million dollar NFL contract and an even bigger shoe contract. He MUST come out because that game has put him on a pedestal in rarefied air. I hope he redefines the QB position in the NFL but have my doubts.

[hoang17]

This proves that God loves Vince Young.



INTANGIBLES


haha. no doubt about it :D

[pgabriel]

but how fair is that you use an interception that never happened to prove your point? This guy led the regular season in passer rating and the only reason he didn't end up leading it is because he ran for his touchdowns instead of passed. What more does the guy have to do?

[FranchiseBlade]

People,

Vince Young is a good player no doubt, but I have a few names for your:

Tommy Frasier
Akili SMith
Charlie Ward
Michael Vick

All those QB's dominated at the college level at running the ball, and only Vick has proven to be good in the NFL (hardly). In fact, Tommy Frasier did the exact same thing that Vince has done, win a national title on running the ball. Where does that bring us? To reality!!! Sorry folks, but if you think Vince Young is going to play at the NFL level the way he did in the Rose Bowl... then you have gone mad.

Where were you peeps a week ago? How come the Reggie Bush loving was going on all year, and after ONE game you have changed your minds? I cant stand people making thier decisions on this one game, and the fact that he is from Houston. Use your heads!

The reason the Texans sucked so bad this year was because of poor coaching and the wrong system being in place. David Carr deserves another chance not only because of this, but because he has proven he can win in the 2 previous seasons. Our defense was just GOD AWFUL this year and that ruined it all.

Listen, Reggie Bush is by far the most dynamic player in this draft, and probably all previous drafts. There is a reason why it is being reported that Reggie Bush WILL be the texans #1 pick. Bob Mcnair knows what you all need to clear your head and realize.... Bush makes us a better team while Vince Young would set us back.

Dont Worry.... You will come to your senses soon enough.I think everyone else commented on this nicely, I just want to add that VY won the game on running, and PASSING. He had good passing numbers as well.

[IC2000]

So you're worried that Vince will go to the NBA like Ward?

Yeah, that's a possibility, genius.

BTW, though I didn't follow that much, don't you have a MASSIVE, foot-long burnt orange crow sandwich to try to cram down your throat at some point as you make your re-entry into the world of bashing UT/Vince Young? Would you like some bearnaise sauce to go with it?

I never bashed ut just vince

[IC2000]

I have been saying all season Reggie Bush is a spectacular 15-20 touch player, but overrated as a college football player and pro prospect because enough plays can't go through him. The Rose Bowl just confirmed what I had been saying and allowed people to see through the hype about Bush and to see where the Heisman should have landed.

A team would be fools to pass on a franchise QB (be it Young or Leinart) for a part time RB/specialty player.

The Texans should take VY or trade down to someone who pays a pretty penny for a shot at a franchise QB.

BTW Roger Staubach was a running QB and he became pretty decent throwing QB. Steve Young, Elway, and McNabb have great legs too, even if not quite like VY. I don't see their mobility making them inferior players. Those are just as apt comparisons than Vick.

People forget VY lead the nation in passing efficiency, and was 30-40 with no INTs in the biggest college football game in years. He has questions like all draftees (e.g., low delivery, does he have a cannon for deep outs?) but his physical qualities and leadership qualities are too phenomenal to pass up.

How many times did he go downfield again? And how many tds did he throw for? At the end of the game he would look for a second for a WR then start running. This was a great idea in college because he was a superior athlete but will not work in the NFL. The offense he had in college is nothing like what he can run in the NFL. So it still remains to be seen if he will be effective, Bush will dominate even if he is a 15-20 touch guy in the NFL. He doesn't need the ball in his hands every play. Wells or Davis can compliment him.

[IC2000]

Did Vince Young impregnate your wife or something? You really have a suspicious vendetta against him.
I wish, we would be about to get rich then. I would then raise the child to be an athlete

[IC2000]

Did you goto USC?
No! Why does that matter?

[MadMax]

How many times did he go downfield again? And how many tds did he throw for? At the end of the game he would look for a second for a WR then start running. This was a great idea in college because he was a superior athlete but will not work in the NFL. The offense he had in college is nothing like what he can run in the NFL. So it still remains to be seen if he will be effective, Bush will dominate even if he is a 15-20 touch guy in the NFL. He doesn't need the ball in his hands every play. Wells or Davis can compliment him.

you roll young out. roll him left...roll him right. play him exactly the way Elway was played. Kubiak would be great for that.

bush will dominate the NFL? seriously, the absolutes here are getting silly. young isn't a sure thing. bush isn't either. there's no such thing. it doesn't exist. bush has questions. young has questions. there are probably less questions about leinart than anyone. but you take based on upside. what you think is possible.

[rrj_gamz]

Vince Young is the best prospect to come out in years.

No one believes he can do it really at the pro level or teams would be salivating over him.

He will prove the 'experts' wrong.

Casserly will be fired in the next couple of seasons after further ruining the franchise.

Texan fans don't even think we are going anywhere the next 3-4 seasons, it will take years to recover from passing on VYoung.

Passing on Young= passing on Hakeem and not drafting MJ.

Casserly= John McMullen

I agree...you can't value the intangibles...Heart, competiveness and desire to be the best...The QB skills will come over time...

[A-Train]

One thing that people are overlooking in the whole Young/Bush debate is the immediate nature of the situation. The Texans can't afford to draft somebody that will help them down the road. They don't have the luxury of waiting for a player to develop. They need somebody that can produce NOW. The fan base is constantly dwindling, and fans are getting tired of waiting for the team to get better. The more losing seasons there are, the less season ticket holders renew, and the longer it takes to get the fan base back.

Which player will take less time to learn the offensive system?
Which player will be less hampered by one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL?

THAT'S the player you draft. Of course, it increasingly looks like it's a moot point, since Casserly already has his mind made up on taking Bush, according to most reports I've heard...

[Dubious]

Not really. No one or two players will turn the Texans around to a winning record next year. No OL drafted in this years draft will dominate NFL veteren DL's next year.

The Houston fanbase will gladly wait for Vince and it could strengthen their long term prospects ala Troy Aikman going 1-15 his first year.

[Groogrux]

One thing that people are overlooking in the whole Young/Bush debate is the immediate nature of the situation. The Texans can't afford to draft somebody that will help them down the road. They don't have the luxury of waiting for a player to develop. They need somebody that can produce NOW. The fan base is constantly dwindling, and fans are getting tired of waiting for the team to get better. The more losing seasons there are, the less season ticket holders renew, and the longer it takes to get the fan base back.

Which player will take less time to learn the offensive system?
Which player will be less hampered by one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL?

THAT'S the player you draft. Of course, it increasingly looks like it's a moot point, since Casserly already has his mind made up on taking Bush, according to most reports I've heard...

Of course, there is one player that the majority of fans would wait on...Vince Young. The fan base is not in jeopardy with the choices they have in April. Unless they take Leinart.

[thegary]

Of course, there is one player that the majority of fans would wait on...Vince Young. The fan base is not in jeopardy with the choices they have in April. Unless they take Leinart.

max mentioned in one of these threads that the worst case scenario would be vy kicking our ass in a titans jersey. i would add, with leinart as our qb.

[Hakeem06]

apostolic, the fact of the matter is that vince yound did WIN the national championship and is 30-2 as a starter with two rose bowl wins and 2 rose bowl mvp's to his credit. of course winning the national championship improved his stock, as it did when matt leinart won his national championships. to be a championship qb at any level is going to raise your stock, it proves you can win.

but have my doubts.

because some ass clown gm's and scouts in the nfl may doubt his skills, he isn't going to be great? are those the same gms and scouts who let emmitt smith slide to the middle of the first round, drafted joe montana in the 3rd round, drafted the panthers steve smith in the 3rd round, drafted tom brady in the 6th or 7th round, etc.

scouts and gm's make mistakes all the time, look at casserlie and the morons they have working for the texans.

[Icehouse]

One thing that people are overlooking in the whole Young/Bush debate is the immediate nature of the situation. The Texans can't afford to draft somebody that will help them down the road. They don't have the luxury of waiting for a player to develop. They need somebody that can produce NOW. The fan base is constantly dwindling, and fans are getting tired of waiting for the team to get better. The more losing seasons there are, the less season ticket holders renew, and the longer it takes to get the fan base back.

Which player will take less time to learn the offensive system?
Which player will be less hampered by one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL?

THAT'S the player you draft. Of course, it increasingly looks like it's a moot point, since Casserly already has his mind made up on taking Bush, according to most reports I've heard...

We are 2-14 and just fired our coaches. I don't think most expect the Texans to compete next year (our schedule isn't easy and we don't play in the NFC).

Fans will gladly wait 1-2 years if VY is drafted.

[crose]

How many times did he go downfield again? And how many tds did he throw for? At the end of the game he would look for a second for a WR then start running. This was a great idea in college because he was a superior athlete but will not work in the NFL. The offense he had in college is nothing like what he can run in the NFL. So it still remains to be seen if he will be effective, Bush will dominate even if he is a 15-20 touch guy in the NFL. He doesn't need the ball in his hands every play. Wells or Davis can compliment him.
How many national championship gamewinning drives in soutern california against an "immortal" USC team that supposedly couldnt lose until VY reached up and @#%&$slapped the entire state of california to bring the title back to the state of TEXAS where it belongs snatching immortality from USC and putting TEXAS on top of the national mountain and allowing everyone in TEXAS the right to shove it right up the asses of every arrogant bandwagon USC fan further proving that TEXAS is where its at, did he lead. exactly.

HOW CAN YOU BE SUCH A HATER WITH YOUR HEAD SO FAR UP YOUR ASS?

[pgabriel]

We are 2-14 and just fired our coaches. I don't think most expect the Texans to compete next year (our schedule isn't easy and we don't play in the NFC).

Fans will gladly wait 1-2 years if VY is drafted.


this is just like in the Rocket forum. I don't think everyone grasps the situation this franchise is in right now. they only won two games and lost to Frisco whom everyone thought was the worst team in the league.

I wonder if people really realize how bad they were. I know they were close with some bad teams but the fact is they made horrible teams like Buffalo and Baltimore look like contenders and against the better teams had no shot except for the Cincinatti game. that's the only competitive game against a playoff team.

[aburttschell]

People,

Vince Young is a good player no doubt, but I have a few names for your:

Tommy Frasier
Akili SMith
Charlie Ward
Michael Vick

All those QB's dominated at the college level at running the ball, and only Vick has proven to be good in the NFL (hardly). In fact, Tommy Frasier did the exact same thing that Vince has done, win a national title on running the ball. Where does that bring us? To reality!!! Sorry folks, but if you think Vince Young is going to play at the NFL level the way he did in the Rose Bowl... then you have gone mad.

Where were you peeps a week ago? How come the Reggie Bush loving was going on all year, and after ONE game you have changed your minds? I cant stand people making thier decisions on this one game, and the fact that he is from Houston. Use your heads!

The reason the Texans sucked so bad this year was because of poor coaching and the wrong system being in place. David Carr deserves another chance not only because of this, but because he has proven he can win in the 2 previous seasons. Our defense was just GOD AWFUL this year and that ruined it all.

Listen, Reggie Bush is by far the most dynamic player in this draft, and probably all previous drafts. There is a reason why it is being reported that Reggie Bush WILL be the texans #1 pick. Bob Mcnair knows what you all need to clear your head and realize.... Bush makes us a better team while Vince Young would set us back.

Dont Worry.... You will come to your senses soon enough.

Agree completely. Finally some rational thought

[MadMax]

this is just like in the Rocket forum. I don't think everyone grasps the situation this franchise is in right now. they only won two games and lost to Frisco whom everyone thought was the worst team in the league.
.

i agree. i don't know about the rockets...but the texans situation is about as low as it gets.

[Groogrux]

Agree completely. Finally some rational thought

Please explain how Tommie Frazier, Akili Smith and Charlie Ward are like VY besides the fact that they are black.

Thanks.

[aburttschell]

Please explain how Tommie Frazier, Akili Smith and Charlie Ward are like VY besides the fact that they are black.

Thanks.

I would say Akili Smith is the best comparison. You just don't know if Young can throw the ball in the NFL.

[MadMax]

I would say Akili Smith is the best comparison. You just don't know if Young can throw the ball in the NFL.

smith was a drop-back passer. in 98, he threw for over 3,000 yards and ran for less than 200. NOTHING like vince young. except that he's black and played QB.

[Groogrux]

smith was a drop-back passer. in 98, he threw for over 3,000 yards and ran for less than 200. NOTHING like vince young. except that he's black and played QB.

Exactly. He also was a starter for one year at Oregon, IIRC, and never won big games like VY has.

[crose]

I would say Akili Smith is the best comparison. You just don't know if Young can throw the ball in the NFL.
WHY DON'T YOU THROW WARREN MOON IN THERE WHILE YOU ARE AT IT.....MORON!

WHY IS IT, THAT WHEN A WHITE QB CAN RUN, HE GETS PRAISED FOR BEING SO VERSATILE. WHEN A BLACK QB CAN RUN, A BUNCH WHITE GUYS LOOK FOR ANYTHING TO CRITICIZE THE GUY.

FEAR OF A BLACK MAN!

[thegary]

WHY DON'T YOU.....


...speak a little louder, i can't hear you.

[Desert Scar]

How many times did he go downfield again? And how many tds did he throw for? At the end of the game he would look for a second for a WR then start running. This was a great idea in college because he was a superior athlete but will not work in the NFL. The offense he had in college is nothing like what he can run in the NFL. So it still remains to be seen if he will be effective, Bush will dominate even if he is a 15-20 touch guy in the NFL. He doesn't need the ball in his hands every play. Wells or Davis can compliment him.

VY passed for over 3000 yards and about 270 versus USC.

Below are more observations from a 2nd viewing, including the myth than VY can only pass short. That is what USC gave him, we usually credit passers for being smart for passing to the open guy rather than forcing it down field into coverage.

BTW I watched nearly every game Bush played this year. He is a phenom athlete but isn't a constant dominating player. For every bit of adjustment VY needs, Bush needs just as much if not more. Bush thrives on space and being faster than everyone--that space will be gone in the pros. VY has size, speed, and instincts. The guy kills you with his legs and arm in the mold of a taller Steve McNair, Steve Young or McNabb. Heck if Mike Vick had 3 inches, more touches, and better leadership abilities wouldn't you want him? If Culpepper was a little faster and was mentally tougher wouldn't you want him? That could very well be what VY is, a combination of size, legs, arm, instincts and leadership abilities that only comes along every decade or so. Perhaps the best QB talent in the draft since Elway.

I will say Bush's TD run was exceptional. He did turn the corner on 2-3 future NFLs in Huff, Ross and Michael Griffin. I had not seen anyone do that to UT's secondary.

But let's say Bush is somewhere on the upper end a blend of Faulk and Dorsett, or on the lower end like Westbrook or Tiki Barber. And VY on the upper end in a blend of Elway/Montana or on the lower end a Culpepper or Cunningham. I think you have to VY, and the questions about Bush being an every down back, being durable in the posistion where you get him the most, and adjusting to NFL speed is every bit as relevant to the questions about VY.

MY POST FROM ANOTHER BOARD about VY and Leinart


I rewatched the Rose Bowl to examine some claims.

On Young.

-We all know he was 30/40 throwing with no INTs.

-Of the 10 incompletions, 2-3 were bad throws that should have been intercepted.

-Most the the throws were short, but he did have a fair amount of midrange throws on the money (to Pittman or Sweed).

-Is is fair to criticism him on no long balls? I think completely not. He did throw a couple of 40 type yarders, and each time USC had a corner and safety help right there. It was good he did not force more. It was clear Carroll wanted Young to have to beat them on dink throws and kept his safeties back, you can't blame Young for taking what the defense gave him in throwing for 270. He was incredibly patient and efficient passing--we usually credit QBs for playing like that (Brady and Montana's fortee) when that is what the D gives you. Also, it was clear Texas did not have a WR the caliber of Jarrett who could bail you out of jump balls more often than not.

On Leinart.

-He was 29/40, 1 INT.

-He had more bad throws than Young--most were 1st half. He through an INT, 2 more that should have been INTs (defensive player had 2 hands on it), and 1 more borderline INT throw.

-With time and a pocket he was deadly. He also was patient and except for some forces to Bush, generally picked the right target.

-Good overall athlete, but not particularly quick on the release or accurate on the move.

ON BOTH GUYS

-Not able to evaluate if either is good at the Troy Aikman type 25 yard deep out (requires great timing and arm strength). They may not be able to do them or they may not be in their offense's.

-Terrific leaders. The last 2 drives by Texas VY made critical runs AND THROWS. It wasn't all legs, key throws were mixed in. VY did make a bad throw that Ting should have intercepted. Leinart was near perfect in the 2nd half, but one of his misthrows cost them as well. It was a 2nd down on the potential game clinching drive, Leinart had to move a little and missed the fullback. This play preceding Lendale being held 6 inches short (should have been 1 yard short) after two carries that gave VY the chance to win.

DRAFT SUMMARY Both players leadership, patience and competitiveness I don't think can be disputed from the Rose Bowl or other games. But if VY shows the better arm strength in workouts, as anticipated, there ir no way I'd pass on him. Too much upside for Young. Just because he is fast and elusive does not make him Vick. He kills you on paitence and making the right play, be it run (e.g., 200 yards in Bowl/1000 season) or pass (270 yards/almost 3000 season). A bigger Steve Young, faster McNabb or bigger Staubach is a much fairer comparison in terms of blending leadership, athleticism, paitence and skills running or throwing. Even if he doesn't have the Elway/Cunningham/Farve/Marino/Aikman arm, he has too much else not to be successfull.

BTW the Texans should be drug out an shot if they take the 15-20 touches a game Bush #1 over franchise QBs. If they want to keep Carr they should trade down to someone who wants Young/Leinart at #1.

[MadMax]

WHY DON'T YOU THROW WARREN MOON IN THERE WHILE YOU ARE AT IT.....MORON!

WHY IS IT, THAT WHEN A WHITE QB CAN RUN, HE GETS PRAISED FOR BEING SO VERSATILE. WHEN A BLACK QB CAN RUN, A BUNCH WHITE GUYS LOOK FOR ANYTHING TO CRITICIZE THE GUY.

FEAR OF A BLACK MAN!

i've noticed this, and it's true. if a white guy can scramble, then it's a good thing. if black guy can scramble, then it's a problem, because it means he probably can't throw??? :confused:

so you overlook the stats and what the guy actually did and make a judgment based on some idea in your head of how this guy should perform...not based on anything other then generalizations.

"well, look...mike vick can't throw!" yeah...but mike vick wasn't nearly the passer at the college level that vince was, either.

[crose]

i've noticed this, and it's true. if a white guy can scramble, then it's a good thing. if black guy can scramble, then it's a problem, because it means he probably can't throw??? :confused:

so you overlook the stats and what the guy actually did and make a judgment based on some idea in your head of how this guy should perform...not based on anything other then generalizations.

"well, look...mike vick can't throw!" yeah...but mike vick wasn't nearly the passer at the college level that vince was, either.
Mike Vick looks alot better when he throws, but still has a terrible completion percentage. I will take VYs sidearm motion(which,by the way,due to his size, will have the same release point height as many NFL QBs)any day, as long as he brings that same winning mentality.

The guy knows how to win, and that is the ultimate goal!

[aburttschell]

Mike Vick looks alot better when he throws, but still has a terrible completion percentage. I will take VYs sidearm motion(which,by the way,due to his size, will have the same release point height as many NFL QBs)any day, as long as he brings that same winning mentality.

The guy knows how to win, and that is the ultimate goal!

Vick's completion % was right at 60% his senior year. Also, Vick only lost 1 college football game in his two years, to FSU in the national championship game. The comparisons are astounding. In my opinion, Young will be the next Mike Vick. He'll win games with his feet, but he'll lose just as many with his arm.

[Desert Scar]

Vick's completion % was right at 60% his senior year. Also, Vick only lost 1 college football game in his two years, to FSU in the national championship game. The comparisons are astounding. In my opinion, Young will be the next Mike Vick. He'll win games with his feet, but he'll lose just as many with his arm.

There are similarities. But two obvious differences are that VY has more touch/arch throwing and is 6'5 230+. Those right there are major differences and two of Vick's limitations.

[aburttschell]

There are similarities. But two obvious differences are that VY has more touch/arch throwing and is 6'5 230+. Those right there are major differences and two of Vick's limitations.

And Young, although extremely ellussive, doesn't have Vick's suddeness or top end speed.

[crose]

There are similarities. But two obvious differences are that VY has more touch/arch throwing and is 6'5 230+. Those right there are major differences and two of Vick's limitations.
vick also doesnt have a national title!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JumpMan]

And Young, although extremely ellussive, doesn't have Vick's suddeness or top end speed.

So you agree that Young will pass better than Vick making you previous point pointless? K!

[SamFisher]

I would say Akili Smith is the best comparison. You just don't know if Young can throw the ball in the NFL.



I'm glad that we're making arbitrary decisions based on superficialities. I hereby christen Reggie Bush as the next Onterrio Smith, insofar as he's a shifty all-purpose RB and shares the same major characteristics as Young does with smith (black, same position, Oregon).

Whizzinator sales in H-town are about to go thru the roof!

[Da Man]

I'm torn between Vince and Reggie.

But I think the lowside of Vince is lower than Cunningham and Culpepper. Culpepper's got a better arm than vince and he is definately a pocket QB. Let's remember he threw for 30 plus td's, 4000 yards passing, and had a 100+QB rating last year. If Young ever produced those numbers in the pro's, he will be one of the greatest QB's ever, especially when you factor in his mobility/leadership advantages of Culpepper. I also think we are selling Cunningham short. Didn't he win NFL MVP in 1990 or 1991? He is a 5 time Pro Bowler.

The upside of Vince is great, but the downside of Vince is a lot lower than being a perenial Pro Bowler like Cunningham and Culpepper. If I was guaranteed he would have at least the career of those two, it's a no brainer to pick him. I don't believe that to be the case though.

[Hakeem06]

I would say Akili Smith is the best comparison. You just don't know if Young can throw the ball in the NFL.


i've said it before and i'll say it again. this is probably the WORST comparison of them all. seriously, the guy rushed for 184 yards his senior year in college! where is the comparison? yeah he threw for a lot of yards but he completed 58% of passes compared to vince's 65%. akili had a strong arm but that was it. vince is more polished passer and such a better runner it's not even funny. this comparison is awful.

[crose]

I'm torn between Vince and Reggie.

But I think the lowside of Vince is lower than Cunningham and Culpepper. Culpepper's got a better arm than vince and he is definately a pocket QB. Let's remember he threw for 30 plus td's, 4000 yards passing, and had a 100+QB rating last year. If Young ever produced those numbers in the pro's, he will be one of the greatest QB's ever, especially when you factor in his mobility/leadership advantages of Culpepper. I also think we are selling Cunningham short. Didn't he win NFL MVP in 1990 or 1991? He is a 5 time Pro Bowler.

The upside of Vince is great, but the downside of Vince is a lot lower than being a perenial Pro Bowler like Cunningham and Culpepper. If I was guaranteed he would have at least the career of those two, it's a no brainer to pick him. I don't believe that to be the case though.
what else could VY have done to prove that he is a winner?
he should be drafted #1 on principle, just as a thank you for sticking it to the cocky USC fans. I live in SOCAL, and the look on the faces of these people was PRICELESS. It looked as though somebody shot their dog right in front of them. THANK YOU VY. YOU ARE MY HERO!

[Desert Scar]

The upside of Vince is great, but the downside of Vince is a lot lower than being a perenial Pro Bowler like Cunningham and Culpepper. If I was guaranteed he would have at least the career of those two, it's a no brainer to pick him. I don't believe that to be the case though.

Fair enough. But VY leadership and calmness in the most critical of situations would already appear to be greater than Culpepper, McNabb (I always thought he was a fierce leader but beggining in last year's superbowl I have my doubts), Steve Young (great athlete with legs, arm and touch, but only superbowl a romp, I think he lost a lot of close playoff games) and Cunningham.

His personality and leadership sure look more from the mold of Brady and Montana than the traditional athletic QB whose decision making in tense situations is questioned.

How about a taller Steve McNair or quicker Elway with no quite that kind of gun? Or a Steve Young with more size and little more confidence and calmness. Unless his arm or mind show up to be much weaker than we all think in evaluations VY is just too rare of physical talent and leader to pass up.

[pgabriel]

Desert Scar,


I think that is a very good post and very good comparisons. Right now I would say as a prospect, he is a taller McNair with a weaker (but not weak) arm. John Elway is also a very good comparison but I don't know what kind of prospect Elway was.

[aburttschell]

So you agree that Young will pass better than Vick making you previous point pointless? K!


That was Deserts opinion not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Hakeem06]

i believe elway was kind of a toss up as a prospect. he played baseball in the minor leagues and was a little unrefined as a quarterback in college. all that the scouts and most people knew was that he had great athleticism and a great arm, and was poised under pressure. all the little intangibles and skills of being a pro qb were up in the air.

[JumpMan]

That was Deserts opinion not mine. Don't put words in my mouth.

You didn't disagree with it...

[aburttschell]

i believe elway was kind of a toss up as a prospect. he played baseball in the minor leagues and was a little unrefined as a quarterback in college. all that the scouts and most people knew was that he had great athleticism and a great arm, and was poised under pressure. all the little intangibles and skills of being a pro qb were up in the air.

I think Vince has intangibles, such as leadership, it's his decision making and ability to read defenses and having a strong enough arm to make the types of throws you need to make are the questions with him.

[Harrisment]

I think Elway was considered one of the best prospects ever actually. I've heard on multiple occasions recently that "Bush is the greatest pro prospect since John Elway."

[aburttschell]

You didn't disagree with it...

Actually his point was that Young has more touch on his throws. I'm fine with that. But that doesn't make him a better passer. I don't know if Young can rifle it to reciever running a slant pattern.

[thegary]

I think Elway was considered one of the best prospects ever actually.

without looking it up this is my recollection.

[crose]

I think Vince has intangibles, such as leadership, it's his decision making and ability to read defenses and having a strong enough arm to make the types of throws you need to make are the questions with him.
VY had his own offensive scheme(zone read) which was based on his ability to read the defense and option off of that. that won a national title, so lets not throw in reading defenses as VY bash backer, because it has no basis.

[Hakeem06]

vince does have all the intangibles of a great pro qb. leadership, poise, and doing whatever it takes to win.

your criticisms of him making the right decision were valid last year, but he didn't make a lot of bad decisions this year. no one perfect, especially qb's, but his decision making was excellent this year. vince has a better arm than most people are giving him credit for. he can throw the thing 50+ yards but he knows how to use touch on the intermediate routes and doesn't just gun in there like a lot of qb's do. he throws catchable balls, that's extremely important in the short to medium passing game.

[crose]

Actually his point was that Young has more touch on his throws. I'm fine with that. But that doesn't make him a better passer. I don't know if Young can rifle it to reciever running a slant pattern.
you mean the way he did to carter on "the drive"?

[Hakeem06]

yes, elway was a GREAT prospect but like every other prospect, he had weak points. there were parts of his game that weren't absolutely certain of pro success. i was just pointing out, there was some legitimate downsides to elway's game. just like vince has.

[aburttschell]

VY had his own offensive scheme(zone read) which was based on his ability to read the defense and option off of that. that won a national title, so lets not throw in reading defenses as VY bash backer, because it has no basis.

Believe it or not crose I respect your opinion, and I also respect what Vince has done. But reading the defensive end isn't the same as reading an NFL secondary or coverage.

signed

aparrent VY basher

[aburttschell]

vince does have all the intangibles of a great pro qb. leadership, poise, and doing whatever it takes to win.

your criticisms of him making the right decision were valid last year, but he didn't make a lot of bad decisions this year. no one perfect, especially qb's, but his decision making was excellent this year. vince has a better arm than most people are giving him credit for. he can throw the thing 50+ yards but he knows how to use touch on the intermediate routes and doesn't just gun in there like a lot of qb's do. he throws catchable balls, that's extremely important in the short to medium passing game.

Actually he only had one less interception last year compared to the year before. In his last two seasons he's averaged almost an interception per game.

[crose]

Believe it or not crose I respect your opinion, and I also respect what Vince has done. But reading the defensive end isn't the same as reading an NFL secondary or coverage.

signed

aparrent VY basher
I just cant comprehend what you have against a guy who has done nothing except, lead the horns to victory, progress as a passer each year in college all the while maintaining his legs, change mack browns outlook on coaching and thus gaining him a national title, breaking trojan hearts, doing it all with a smile and some class, and staying out of trouble. THE GUY IS A WINNER. plain and simple. give him some credit and quit trying to knock him down, because without him, all eyes would be on USC and "three-pete"!

VY gives me more ammo in the ongoing debate over which state is better out of CALI-TEXAS.

[aburttschell]

I just cant comprehend what you have against a guy who has done nothing except, lead the horns to victory, progress as a passer each year in college all the while maintaining his legs, change mack browns outlook on coaching and thus gaining him a national title, breaking trojan hearts, doing it all with a smile and some class, and staying out of trouble. THE GUY IS A WINNER. plain and simple. give him some credit and quit trying to knock him down, because without him, all eyes would be on USC and "three-pete"!

VY gives me more ammo in the ongoing debate over which state is better out of CALI-TEXAS.

Agreed, I'm not trying to take any of that away. As I've said, Vince has had a great college football career, but in terms of the Texans, I don't think he's the right guy. I hope that doesn't take anything away from what he's accomplished, because it is truely amazing what he's done. When I offer my opinions about him in these threads, it's not to demean him, it's only to explain why I feel Bush is the better fit for us. I was proud as a Texan what he did in that game.

[SamFisher]

Actually he only had one less interception last year compared to the year before. In his last two seasons he's averaged almost an interception per game.

He also had far more attempts, completions, touchdowns, and yards than he did the previous year on his way to leading the nation in passing efficiency in 2005 until the bowl season.

But those aren't relevant facts, right abuttschell? As long as he would be confused for Akili Smith in a snowstorm from 100 yards away.....

[aburttschell]

He also had far more attempts, completions, touchdowns, and yards than he did the previous year on his way to leading the nation in passing efficiency in 2005 until the bowl season.

But those aren't relevant facts, right abuttschell? As long as he would be confused for Akili Smith in a snowstorm from 100 yards away.....

I've never discounted those facts, and my comparison to Smith was that I feel Young will have the same problem that he had when he came to the NFL. The game was just played at a different speed.

[pgabriel]

AGAIN, YOUNG AND SMITH ARE NOTHING ALIKE OTHER THAN THEY ARE BLACK. THE COMPARISON IS LUDICROUS AND YOU LOOSE CREDIBILITY MAKING IT.

[SamFisher]

I've never discounted those facts, and my comparison to Smith was that I feel Young will have the same problem that he had when he came to the NFL. The game was just played at a different speed.

I'm sure your extensive film study of late 90's Oregon and subsequent Bengals games confirms this? Or is there some other factor you seem to be hanging this on? What precisely was the nature of Smith's problem? His explosive collegiate mobility and 100 yard rushing seasons didn't translate to the NFL?

Anyway, from my own Oregon film studies, I can say the same will happen to Reggie Bush. His obvious predecessor Onterrio Smith found it out the hard way. Really, if we look at Onterrio Smith we're looking at what Reggie Bush would be with a few extra lbs and some whizzinator will do , although to be fair Smith was a featured tailback in college so I wouldn't want to set the bar too high for Reggie. That would be unfair.

:rolleyes:

[thegary]

buttshell, the draft is nothing but one big crapshoot. everyone has question marks. all i know is that vy won the biggest college football game in years, practically on his own. he was the best player on the field, by miles and miles. that's all we have to go by for now. we'll see how long it takes him to carry the texans on his back to the playoffs and beyond. woohoo!

[Desert Scar]

VY dominated the game with his legs, arm and decision making/mental approach to the game against four of the recent NC coaches with powerhouse talent and well respected DC doing everything they could to stop him--USC, OU, Ohio S, & Mich. Remember Ohio State had a pro caliber LB core plus great d ends and DBs, Young primarily moved the ball through the air.

It is not the same as dominating the pro talent/opposing coaches, but it is as impressive as you can get without being in the pros. The leaps in the athleticism of his competition and big game pressure were MUCH greater for say example Culpepper, Rothlesburger, McNair, and yet even those guys contributed pretty quickly on the pro level.

I guess we will find out soon enough, but I would expect VY to have the arm strength of a Montana, Steve Young or Tom Brady. He alreay seems to have a nice touch/arc, can hit guys in stride, and decent timing.

My questions about VY would be about his accuracy/consistency (while not in the Rose Bowl, other games he didn't often seem to excute the easy play), does he have merely a good arm versus great arm, and ability to read NFL defenses. He would have to majorly dissappoint in many of these areas not to be the best pro football prospect in many years. Further I think if in fact Young proves to have merely a "good arm" alomg with his with touch and timing that is preferrable to a cannon without those latter things (perhaps Vick?).

[Harrisment]

buttshell

That made me laugh. :D



Carry on.

[crose]

I've never discounted those facts, and my comparison to Smith was that I feel Young will have the same problem that he had when he came to the NFL. The game was just played at a different speed.
VY has been better than everybody on every level he has played on. he was the kid that everyone wanted on their team in kickball. he was the kid who pissed off opposing soccer moms to the point where they threw their soccer mom sweaters in the garbage and forced their kids into piano lessons and ballet lessons, he was the kid that ran over pop warner. he was the kid who dominated highschool in anything he felt like, he was the kid who brought victory to TEXAS, and he is going to be the MAN in the NFL.

he is used to success
he is used to winning
that just doesnt stop because someone thinks a throwing motion doesnt translate well in the NFL. he can throw with his face for all I care, as long as he wins, which he will find a way to.
jump on, because this bandwagon aint stoppin until it reaches the HALL OF FAME!

[Hakeem06]

Actually he only had one less interception last year compared to the year before. In his last two seasons he's averaged almost an interception per game.

look at pass attempts.... 250 as a sophomore with 11 picks, that's one interception every 22 attempts. 10 this year with 325 pass attempts, that's one every 32 attempts. that's a major improvement.

[aburttschell]

VY has been better than everybody on every level he has played on. he was the kid that everyone wanted on their team in kickball. he was the kid who pissed off opposing soccer moms to the point where they threw their soccer mom sweaters in the garbage and forced their kids into piano lessons and ballet lessons, he was the kid that ran over pop warner. he was the kid who dominated highschool in anything he felt like, he was the kid who brought victory to TEXAS, and he is going to be the MAN in the NFL.

he is used to success
he is used to winning
that just doesnt stop because someone thinks a throwing motion doesnt translate well in the NFL. he can throw with his face for all I care, as long as he wins, which he will find a way to.
jump on, because this bandwagon aint stoppin until it reaches the HALL OF FAME!

Wow, arguing this is pointless.

[pgabriel]

Wow, arguing this is pointless.

No kidding. :cool:

[aburttschell]

That made me laugh. :D



Carry on.

I can now see the type of intelligence I'm dealing with.

[crose]

Wow, arguing this is pointless.
give us some more akili smith comparisons. that was hillarious.

c,mon...please!

[aburttschell]

I'm sure your extensive film study of late 90's Oregon and subsequent Bengals games confirms this? Or is there some other factor you seem to be hanging this on? What precisely was the nature of Smith's problem? His explosive collegiate mobility and 100 yard rushing seasons didn't translate to the NFL?

Anyway, from my own Oregon film studies, I can say the same will happen to Reggie Bush. His obvious predecessor Onterrio Smith found it out the hard way. Really, if we look at Onterrio Smith we're looking at what Reggie Bush would be with a few extra lbs and some whizzinator will do , although to be fair Smith was a featured tailback in college so I wouldn't want to set the bar too high for Reggie. That would be unfair.

:rolleyes:

Actually this was the report on Akili...

Regarded by many to be one of the finest athletes in college football...Has exceptional quickness when forced out of the pocket...Reminds scouts of Minnesota’s Randall Cunningham for his ability to improvise when the play breaks down & shows patience waiting for his secondary receivers to get open...Recently timed at 4.65 in the 40-yard dash...Equally accurate in both the short area & deep passing game...Can make the sideline throws & lays up the long ball with touch.


I see quite a few comparisons to the two players.

[Mr. Clutch]

YOU LOOSE CREDIBILITY

LOL. Nice.

[crose]

I can now see the type of intelligence I'm dealing with.
dude, you are always throwing the insuficient intelligence/maturity card.

did you ever stop to think that maybe your opinions are shared by very few?
you are responsible some of the most unintelligent "fodder" on this site. you can judge that by the onslaught of insult you just took. I mean, you really compared VY to akili smith. how does that happen?

[aburttschell]

dude, you are always throwing the insuficient intelligence/maturity card.

did you ever stop to think that maybe your opinions are shared by very few?
you are responsible some of the most unintelligent "fodder" on this site. you can judge that by the onslaught of insult you just took. I mean, you really compared VY to akili smith. how does that happen?

It takes little intelligence to know that the "onslaught" is being provided by Longhorn fans that take it as stab in the back if you say anything critical about Vince Young.

[Mr. Clutch]

he was the best player on the field, by miles and miles. that's all we have to go by for now.

That's all we have to go on? What are you talking about? We have the rest of the college season.

[SamFisher]

Actually this was the report on Akili...

Regarded by many to be one of the finest athletes in college football...Has exceptional quickness when forced out of the pocket...Reminds scouts of Minnesota’s Randall Cunningham for his ability to improvise when the play breaks down & shows patience waiting for his secondary receivers to get open...Recently timed at 4.65 in the 40-yard dash...Equally accurate in both the short area & deep passing game...Can make the sideline throws & lays up the long ball with touch.


I see quite a few comparisons to the two players.

So, by googling this, I trust you are conceding you don't know f-k all about A. Smith in college, didn't watch him then (really, how could you? Do you live in Oregon or something?) and are kind of just of pulling it out of your ass retroactively. Because you made it sound as if you saw a whole hell of a lot of similarities. But if you didn't watch Smith in college, then your comparison crashes and burns.

They both like hip hop and watch BET too. Don't forget that one abuttschell.

But two can play at this game. Read the following scouting report for the Whizzinator:
ANALYSIS
Positives: Compactly built runner with a solid upper-body frame … Very quick coming out of his stance, getting into top speed immediately … Quite sudden in his movements, gaining an advantage over the defender with his juking moves … Has great field vision, easily spotting blockers downfield and seeing the rush lanes, running through the holes with awareness … Picks and slides through the inside holes at a low pad level … Changes his angles properly to reach the outside corner when the inside rush lanes are clogged … Displays fluid lateral agility and the balance to spin, plant and drive with no hesitation in order to gain additional yardage upfield … Explosive runner with the wiggle and hip swerve to break tackles and make defenders miss … Very quick to get on the edge to outrun the pack … Sees threats well and reacts instantly when the initial rush lane is clogged … Shows surprising power in his leg drive and is capable of moving the pile.

Negatives: Appears more comfortable running on the edge than up the middle … Must secure the ball better to prevent costly fumbles … Needs to polish his route-running, as he tends to round his cuts and looks hesitant coming back for the underneath passes … Blocking is marginal and he lacks the strength to face up and sustain (shows willingness, but no technique).
CAREER NOTES
An outstanding big-play runner who originally began his career at the University of Tennessee … Transferred to Oregon in 2000, sharing running duties with Maurice Morris as a sophomore before becoming the Ducks' featured back in 2002 … Gained 2,199 yards with 19 touchdowns on 419 carries (5.2 avg.), ranking seventh on the school's all-time rushing list … Joined Morris (2000-2001) as the only players in Oregon annals to rush for over 1,000 yards twice in a career … Added 149 yards and a pair of scores on 24 catches (6.2 avg.) and 534 yards with a touchdown on 20 kickoff returns (26.7 avg.) … Averaged 131.0 all-purpose yards per game as a Duck … Gained 2,388 yards on 450 attempts, including 23 touchdowns during his entire collegiate career

Quickness? Acceleration? Running wide? Kick returner? Reggie Bush = poor man's Onterrio Smith, just less proven. I know this by googling a scouting report, AND because they're black, Smith went to Oregon, and played in the Pac 10 too....................:rolleyes:

[Desert Scar]

That's all we have to go on? What are you talking about? We have the rest of the college season.

Actually the Rose Bowl well epitomizes Bush's and VY's careers for those who payed attention.

Bush was a great 15-20 play player on a phenomenally gifted offensive team (minimum 4 1st round draftee skill players including Bush off USC, plus a great Oline). VY was a dominant and phenomenal player on a nearly as productive offense despite the entire defense trying to stop this one player every offensive snap.

If the Heisman went to the best college football player or the most dominant college football player instead of the guy with the most amazing 10-20 highlights it would have gone to VY.

[thegary]

It takes little intelligence

http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/2324/boxaliens0ur.jpg

[Hakeem06]

Regarded by many to be one of the finest athletes in college football...Has exceptional quickness when forced out of the pocket...Reminds scouts of Minnesota’s Randall Cunningham for his ability to improvise when the play breaks down & shows patience waiting for his secondary receivers to get open...Recently timed at 4.65 in the 40-yard dash...Equally accurate in both the short area & deep passing game...Can make the sideline throws & lays up the long ball with touch.

not quite sure where you got that scouting report from. i've seen his official 40 time as 4.7 by both cnn/si and espn. and to be compared to randall cunningham for rushing for a whopping 2.2 yards a carry in college with 4 rushing touchdowns is just befuddling.

[IC2000]

I can now see the type of intelligence I'm dealing with.

Its a waste of time trying to talk to these people about vince young or anything related to UT. This is not the place to do it. Vince was an amazing college athlete, his skills don't look like they are going to translate into the NFL. He would be a huge project. Bush can come in right away and give some excitement and help us win games. I don't think Vince is worth the #1 pick, especially considering Reggie Bush is out there and we really don't need a QB. If Vince had not gone to UT or Madison there would be no argument for him to come here. Everybody would have been all for Bush. I mean, all mock drafts have Leinart and Bush in front of him.

And to whoever said he dominated the ohio state game, that is simply wrong. He had 2 interceptions and possibly a fumble? That is not dominating a game.

[Hakeem06]

And to whoever said he dominated the ohio state game, that is simply wrong. He had 2 interceptions and possibly a fumble? That is not dominating a game.
Today 05:34 PM

no he didn't dominate that game but he still had 346 yards of total offense and despite those two picks, he showed unbelievable poise in one of the most difficult environments in all of college football to lead his team back to a VICTORY. he completed over 60% of his passes and threw for 260 yards against one of the nation's best defenses. the fact that he did throw two picks and still not get rattled and lose the game, proves his intangibles are some that are rarely seen at any level. he does have weaknesses but who doesn't?

[gr8-1]

And Young, although extremely ellussive, doesn't have Vick's suddeness or top end speed.


But he'll likely be the second most elusive qb in the nfl. Hell, I think his YPC numbers in college were similar to Vick's.

I'm sure there are qbs faster than Vince, but I don't know any that are more elusive.

[SamFisher]

Its a waste of time trying to talk to these people about vince young or anything related to UT. This is not the place to do it. Vince was an amazing college athlete, his skills don't look like they are going to translate into the NFL. He would be a huge project. Bush can come in right away and give some excitement and help us win games. I don't think Vince is worth the #1 pick, especially considering Reggie Bush is out there and we really don't need a QB. If Vince had not gone to UT or Madison there would be no argument for him to come here. Everybody would have been all for Bush. I mean, all mock drafts have Leinart and Bush in front of him.

And to whoever said he dominated the ohio state game, that is simply wrong. He had 2 interceptions and possibly a fumble? That is not dominating a game.

Unless you're Reggie McNeal, and then you can have games like that vs. inferior competition for years and still end up being a first day draft pick, and the steal of the draft at that, or so you say

[langal]

I live on the West Coast and saw a lot of Akili Smith (on tv). I'm also a Bungle fan.

Akili was a stud in college. He was very athletic and could really throw the ball too. I'd have to say that Vince is more athletic than him - but not as proven as a passer. No problem making comparison between Vince and Akili. Akili was a very highly-touted prospect and very few people questioned the Kitties using a 3rd overall pick on him.

We really have no idea why he wasn't succesful in the NFL. He looked very promising his rookie year. Fact is - the Bengals were quite adept then at ruining young QBs (remember David Klingler?). I know he had problems making reads vs the more complex NFL schemes. In the Pac 10, guys always seemed wide open. Maybe he just didn't work hard enough. Young QBs on really bad teams have rarely fared well. I think Dave Shula was their coach back then for gawd's sakes.

Reggie Bush did get more carries this year as opposed to last year. I had some questions last year about his durability - but do think he can be a feature back in the NFL. When you're returning kicks and sharing a backfield with Lendale White - why carry the ball 30+ time a game?

I wouldn't take Vince or Reggie Bush with the first pick. The Texans have a lot of holes to plug up and maybe trading for quality and quantity would be best. It would lack the excitement or "star" appeal - but would help them more in the long run.

[crose]

Its a waste of time trying to talk to these people about vince young or anything related to UT. This is not the place to do it. Vince was an amazing college athlete, his skills don't look like they are going to translate into the NFL. He would be a huge project. Bush can come in right away and give some excitement and help us win games. I don't think Vince is worth the #1 pick, especially considering Reggie Bush is out there and we really don't need a QB. If Vince had not gone to UT or Madison there would be no argument for him to come here. Everybody would have been all for Bush. I mean, all mock drafts have Leinart and Bush in front of him.

And to whoever said he dominated the ohio state game, that is simply wrong. He had 2 interceptions and possibly a fumble? That is not dominating a game.
Okay....thats it......no more arguments......I had no idea ALL the mock drafts had leinart and bush in front of VY......man, what were we thinking even debating this.....ALL of the mock drafts....geeeze...case closed!

[Cohen]

Mel Kiper's top six players

1. Reggie Bush, USC RB (Pending Bush entering draft)
2. Matt Leinart, USC QB
3. Vince Young, Texas QB
4. Mario Williams DE, NC State
5. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT, Virginia
6. A.J. Hawk, LB, Ohio State


FWIW...Kiper's that guy who was arguing for Cal in the 04 Rose Bowl over Texas ... (the Bears where then beat by Tech by 14).

[Cohen]

Okay....thats it......no more arguments......I had no idea ALL the mock drafts had leinart and bush in front of VY......man, what were we thinking even debating this.....ALL of the mock drafts....geeeze...case closed!


Really...ALL of the mock drafts!

D*mn.

[Cohen]

Its a waste of time trying to talk to these people about vince young or anything related to UT. ....


Ahhh...the homerism argument that was presented w/o hesitation before the season... before the Rose Bowl and the National Championship...

It's not just UT alums who think Vince is a reasonable #1 pick...that is...except ALL of the mock drafts.

I think that it's funny that you think Bush is such a sure thing and will have such an immediate impact. UT was the first defense with speed at least somewhat similar to a pro defense and how many yards did he rush for? He will prob be good, but he won't run free like college and he will have to adjust to much faster, stronger Ds just like VY would.

Make no mistake, I think any of the top 3 are good gambles, but your dismissal of VY is ridiculous.

And you keep arguing conventional wisdom (mock drafts? :o ) as if it's fact and it is NOT*


*See 'ROSE BOWL'

[crose]

No one has brought up the fact that VY saved his best performance for the biggest game of the year. it is a crime that they choose the heisman before the end of the year. everyone was drooling over the reggie against fresno st. wtf. fresno st., the same team that lost to louisiana tech. are you kidding me. VY had his best when it mattered. but they probably dont take that into account in the almighty MOCK DRAFTS.

[percicles]

FWIW...Kiper's that guy who was arguing for Cal in the 04 Rose Bowl over Texas ... (the Bears where then beat by Tech by 14).

Kiper also had Babin as a late 1st rounder.

[Harrisment]

I can now see the type of intelligence I'm dealing with.


buttshell, I actually lean towards drafting Bush over Young....and even I think you're talking out of your ass.

[crose]

buttshell, I actually lean towards drafting Bush over Young....and even I think you're talking out of your ass.
buttshell is terrible!

[Cire]

LOL at the VY haters. Do you guys realize that his 6'5" and thick. The small backs of the NFL are not going to pop him. He played and still practiced with Derrick Johnson on of the best hitters in the league. Derrick said in an interview that VY is the hardest guy that he has ever tried to tackle. They both work together in the offseason, along with Steve McNair. Vince will be a great player in NFL. Bush and his lack of carries worries me much more.

[Cire]

All Young supporters, please email Charlie Casserly at CCasserly@houstontexans.com and fanfeedback@houstontexans.com.

[Mr. Clutch]

LOL at the VY haters. Do you guys realize that his 6'5" and thick. The small backs of the NFL are not going to pop him. He played and still practiced with Derrick Johnson on of the best hitters in the league. Derrick said in an interview that VY is the hardest guy that he has ever tried to tackle. They both work together in the offseason, along with Steve McNair. Vince will be a great player in NFL. Bush and his lack of carries worries me much more.

Who cares if Vince is pretty big and a good runner? QUARTERBACK SNEAKS DONT WORK IN THE NFL!

[crose]

Who cares if Vince is pretty big and a good runner? QUARTERBACK SNEAKS DONT WORK IN THE NFL!
why? is there a ban against them or something? what does work in the NFL? VY is going to write a whole new chapter to what does and does not work in the NFL! the guy is a born winner.

[Mr. Clutch]

why? is there a ban against them or something? what does work in the NFL? VY is going to write a whole new chapter to what does and does not work in the NFL! the guy is a born winner.

And what is Reggie Bush, a born loser? Why do people keep talking about Vince's heart and learship and will to win as if Reggie is lacking in that area?

Good pocket passers work in the NFL. If Vince is going to succeed he is going to have to become an excellent pocket passer. Look what happened to Vick.

[Blatz]

FOX26's Mark Berman just said city council made tomorrow (I think he said tomorrow) officially Vince Young Day here in Houston.

[crose]

And what is Reggie Bush, a born loser? Why do people keep talking about Vince's heart and learship and will to win as if Reggie is lacking in that area?

Good pocket passers work in the NFL. If Vince is going to succeed he is going to have to become an excellent pocket passer. Look what happened to Vick.
reggie is going to look great in a texans uniform, but VY is still the obvious choice here. why do people assume VY cant stay in the pocket? he could have stayed in the pocket alot more, and gotten alot less done, but he created when it was time to create. he has done things no other QB can lay claim to(2500/1000), and yet he still takes criticism for not being an effective passer. what more do you want from the guy...he only led the nation in passing efficiency. what more could you possibly want? would you have rather seen him more one dimensional? a pure passer, that didnt try to run? or would you rather see him win games with his arm and his feet, the way he di JAN 4? for an entire month pete carrol worked on a game plan to stop him, and didnt even come close. that coming from a guy who "masterminded" a 34- game win streak. VY ripped him. what more do you want from him? HE WON! every major play for USC, and reggie was on the sideline. why? not because he wasnt a badass, but because he wasnt the right badass at that time on a team full of badasses. reggie will be great, no doubt, but VY is going to terrorize the Texans twice a year for a long time.

[pgabriel]

yeah look what happened to Vick, he went to the playoffs twice, already been to the championship game and he's only twenty five.

wouldn't want that to happen to the Texans.

[Mr. Clutch]

reggie is going to look great in a texans uniform, but VY is still the obvious choice here. why do people assume VY cant stay in the pocket? he could have stayed in the pocket alot more, and gotten alot less done, but he created when it was time to create. he has done things no other QB can lay claim to(2500/1000), and yet he still takes criticism for not being an effective passer. what more do you want from the guy...he only led the nation in passing efficiency. what more could you possibly want? would you have rather seen him more one dimensional? a pure passer, that didnt try to run? or would you rather see him win games with his arm and his feet, the way he di JAN 4? for an entire month pete carrol worked on a game plan to stop him, and didnt even come close. that coming from a guy who "masterminded" a 34- game win streak. VY ripped him. what more do you want from him? HE WON! every major play for USC, and reggie was on the sideline. why? not because he wasnt a badass, but because he wasnt the right badass at that time on a team full of badasses. reggie will be great, no doubt, but VY is going to terrorize the Texans twice a year for a long time.

I'm not saying Young can't stay in the pocket or isn't a great player. He is! But so is Reggie Bush! What more do you want from Reggie Bush? He ran, he caught, he returned kicks. He averaged OVER SEVEN YARDS A CARRY! Cadillac Williams didn't do that and he was tearing up the NFL his rookie year!

Reggie would beat Vince in a race, so take Reggie!

[IC2000]

FWIW...Kiper's that guy who was arguing for Cal in the 04 Rose Bowl over Texas ... (the Bears where then beat by Tech by 14).

so he is biased against ut :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

you guys are nuts

He is a freaking draft analyst!!! He could care less what team you play for. Cal deserved it, but mack brown cried on national tv

[Mr. Clutch]

yeah look what happened to Vick, he went to the playoffs twice, already been to the championship game and he's only twenty five.

wouldn't want that to happen to the Texans.

Are you deliberately twisting my arguments? You know Vick struggles in the pocket! That's what I was refering too. Vick is a very good player but he shows that you can't expect a running QB to run rougshod in the NFL.

[IC2000]

Ahhh...the homerism argument that was presented w/o hesitation before the season... before the Rose Bowl and the National Championship...

It's not just UT alums who think Vince is a reasonable #1 pick...that is...except ALL of the mock drafts.

I think that it's funny that you think Bush is such a sure thing and will have such an immediate impact. UT was the first defense with speed at least somewhat similar to a pro defense and how many yards did he rush for? He will prob be good, but he won't run free like college and he will have to adjust to much faster, stronger Ds just like VY would.

Make no mistake, I think any of the top 3 are good gambles, but your dismissal of VY is ridiculous.

And you keep arguing conventional wisdom (mock drafts? :o ) as if it's fact and it is NOT*


*See 'ROSE BOWL'


13 carries 85 yards- 6.3 per carry ( they really shut him down)
6 catches for 95 yards

And he was underused! I guess they shut him down?/????

[pgabriel]

Are you deliberately twisting my arguments? You know Vick struggles in the pocket! That's what I was refering too. Vick is a very good player but he shows that you can't expect a running QB to run rougshod in the NFL.


you didn't make an argument. pocket passers get hurt, look what happened to Carson Palmer.

Besides, Vick is irrelevant when it comes to young as far as injuries are concerned, Vick was injury prone in college. He's just fragile, not very big, yeah he's gonna have to embrace his passing ability sooner rather than later.

But Vince has proven to be durable.

[NIKEstrad]

Cal deserved it, but mack brown cried on national tv

:rolleyes:

Were the 2004 Cal Bears better than the 2004 Longhorns? Retrospect is a pretty unequivocal no. So why would they deserve to be in the better bowl game? Just excuse yourself from all things UT. You ranted and raved about overrated this and that, how great a game A&M played against us, how we're just delusional fans- in the end, UT wins.

I'm torn. I don't think we can go wrong either way. Both Vince and VY are transcendent players, imo - they completely redefine defensive schemes.

If Carr could give you a decent return, it makes things more interesting.

Of course, it also makes our trade possibilities juicier, and even our negotiations with agents a little different.

[IC2000]

:rolleyes:

Were the 2004 Cal Bears better than the 2004 Longhorns? Retrospect is a pretty unequivocal no. So why would they deserve to be in the better bowl game? Just excuse yourself from all things UT. You ranted and raved about overrated this and that, how great a game A&M played against us, how we're just delusional fans- in the end, UT wins.

I'm torn. I don't think we can go wrong either way. Both Vince and VY are transcendent players, imo - they completely redefine defensive schemes.

If Carr could give you a decent return, it makes things more interesting.

Of course, it also makes our trade possibilities juicier, and even our negotiations with agents a little different.


It doesnt matter who was better in the end. I am not a UT hater, i am a Vince Young hater though. He is a great player but i just dont see him being anywhere near bush IN THE NFL

[IC2000]

:rolleyes:


I'm torn. I don't think we can go wrong either way. Both Vince and VY are transcendent players, imo - they completely redefine defensive schemes.

\
we know what your thinking

[Mr. Clutch]

you didn't make an argument. pocket passers get hurt, look what happened to Carson Palmer.

Besides, Vick is irrelevant when it comes to young as far as injuries are concerned, Vick was injury prone in college. He's just fragile, not very big, yeah he's gonna have to embrace his passing ability sooner rather than later.

But Vince has proven to be durable.

I wasn't referring just to injuries, although obviously there will be more risk to QBs who run more. I remember the Falcon's wanting Vick to run less because of the injury risk. It's also the fact that running out of the pocket isn't as effective in the NFL. You can't just run around without blockers and not expect to get nailed.

And on top of that the offense won't runner as smoothly if the QB runs out too much. A good passing offense often requires the QB to stay in the pocket until the last possible second.

Not that Young won't be a good pocket passer. I think he will. But a lot of people are focusing on his running which won't be as big a factor in the NFL.

[Cohen]

so he is biased against ut :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

you guys are nuts

He is a freaking draft analyst!!! He could care less what team you play for. Cal deserved it, but mack brown cried on national tv


Yes he is a draft analyst, so why did he write an article on why Cal deserved it over UT? Then he was clearly wrong in his assessment. Not too impressive.

Do you ever tire of calling folks here nuts, 'genius', idiot, ahole, or to **** yourself? Oh, I really enjoyed the one where you said some of the guys prob didn't go to college or have a job...I'm sure that really hurt their feelings.

Are you here to meet other Rockets fans and discuss or just to dangle your wanker?

[NIKEstrad]

we know what your thinking

You really are schizo.

[DVauthrin]

You really are schizo.

He is really is the quintessential Aggie who envies us(UT) every day. Nothing more nothing less. To keep his existence he called Vince "Radio" and will always think he sucks as a player because he played for us. In fact, if Vince didn't play at UT, he would be calling him an awesome pro prospect more likely than not. The funny thing is he actually talked good about Vince and his pro prospects soon after the Rose Bowl, but now his aggiedom has kicked back in high gear.

[SamFisher]

i am a Vince Young hater though.

LOL, so who cares then? You hate, who cares. Some here love - big deal.

I'm -- ostensibly, for lack of a another team, once the oilers left -- a Texans fan, not a VY or R.Bush hater. But, they haven't done sh-t, except for the inaugural game ever, to earn my loyalty yet. And I'll tell you what, if they pass on a hometown hero like VY (and I moved out of H-town 5 plus years ago) and he turns out to be good, then F- the texans. I know who the best non-pro player on earth was this year -- if they don't after 4 years of absolute mismanagement, then I don't have the time or the patience to wait to figure out who they think is.

but oh yeah, Reggie McNeal in Round 3 in your wet dreams, well -- yeah, I forgot about that utopian scenario.....

[IC2000]

He is really is the quintessential Aggie who envies us(UT) every day. Nothing more nothing less. To keep his existence he called Vince "Radio" and will always think he sucks as a player because he played for us. In fact, if Vince didn't play at UT, he would be calling him an awesome pro prospect more likely than not. The funny thing is he actually talked good about Vince and his pro prospects soon after the Rose Bowl, but now his aggiedom has kicked back in high gear.

I just dont want him for the texans. He sets us back to restart and I dont think he will be as good as bush. I wouldnt want leinart here either!

[IC2000]

but oh yeah, Reggie McNeal in Round 3 in your wet dreams, well -- yeah, I forgot about that utopian scenario.....

Hey I can't show some love for my guys like others do for Vince. A year ago he was the much bigger prospect so i think he has all sorts of untapped potential.

[DVauthrin]

LOL, so who cares then? You hate, who cares. Some here love - big deal.

I'm -- ostensibly, for lack of a another team, once the oilers left -- a Texans fan, not a VY or R.Bush hater. But, they haven't done sh-t, except for the inaugural game ever, to earn my loyalty yet. And I'll tell you what, if they pass on a hometown hero like VY (and I moved out of H-town 5 plus years ago) and he turns out to be good, then F- the texans. I know who the best non-pro player on earth was this year -- if they don't after 4 years of absolute mismanagement, then I don't have the time or the patience to figure out who they think is.

This is how I feel. If they blow this golden opportunity to galvanize the fans and get a tremendous prospect from the city, they might as well move again. It will be that devastating if they don't win soon after whoever they draft and Vince becomes a badass QB. What really bothers me is this draft is similar to the Vick/Tomlinson draft. Except that I personally think Vince is a slightly better prospect than Vick(bigger, smarter runner, with a better completion percentage than vick) and Bush a slightly worse prospect than LT(has to prove he can carry the ball as much as most NFL backs and running inside the tackles frequently). In that draft Vick was the clear cut number 1 pick. LT went 5th. Quite frankly, that is how it should happen this time, but the hype for reggie bush drastically exceeded anything LT got at TCU, influencing the draft order.

[Cohen]

13 carries 85 yards- 6.3 per carry ( they really shut him down)
6 catches for 95 yards

And he was underused! I guess they shut him down?/????


Oh yeah, he really ran all over this college defense.

And notice that I said 'rush' in my previous post since if he's not effective as an RB in the pros that he's not worth a #1 pick (of course I expected you to mention the receiving yards...we'll get to that too though).

His first 12 carries netted his team a whopping 56 yards, of which 18 came on one play. Wooo hooo, what's that awesome average...4.6?

On his very last run, with a tad over 11 minutes remaining in the game and the D backs a bit winded and focusing on Leinart's passing and White's running, he was finally able to scamper for 26 to lift his average.

The reason he was 'underused' was because he was shut down and White was running more effectively.

As for his receiving yards, 26 came on the garbage play at the end with UT in prevent. So 5 catches for 69. Oh yeah, what a stunning performance. He had UT back on their heels ... he really took over and turned the game for SC. :rolleyes:


For one so quick to call others here idiots, maybe you should be a little more thoughtful when responding.

[DVauthrin]

I just dont want him for the texans. He sets us back to restart and I dont think he will be as good as bush. I wouldnt want leinart here either!

When you are 2-14, you are at restart. No other way around it. The texans aren't going to make the playoffs next year, so I take the best prospect to build around, in my honest opinion, it's Vince(all factors considered). Also, consider Bush and Davis are similar style backs, and unless you can put one in the slot every play(or play WR2 every down), you aren't getting the value you need out of the pick. Plus, Carr would fetch more in a trade easily than Davis would.

[MadMax]

Hey I can't show some love for my guys like others do for Vince. A year ago he was the much bigger prospect so i think he has all sorts of untapped potential.

prospect doesn't mean crap until you prove it on the field...it only means that you haven't proven it yet. vince has...and then some.

i hate this argument already. i can't stand these threads that i keep coming back to. i can't stand that the texans are even considering not drafting VY because of the almighty potential of reggie bush and david carr. i just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

[DVauthrin]

Oh yeah, he really ran all over this college defense.

And notice that I said 'rush' in my previous post since if he's not effective as an RB in the pros that he's not worth a #1 pick (of course I expected you to mention the receiving yards...we'll get to that too though).

His first 12 carries netted his team a whopping 56 yards, of which 18 came on one play. Wooo hooo, what's that awesome average...4.6?

On his very last run, with a tad over 11 minutes remaining in the game and the D backs a bit winded, he was finally able to scamper for 26 to lift his average.

The reason he was 'underused' was because he was shut down and White was running more effectively.

As for his receiving yards, 26 came on the garbage play at the end with UT in prevent. So 5 catches for 69. Oh yeah, what a stunning performance. He had UT back on their heals ... he really took over and turned the game for SC. :rolleyes:


For one so quick to call others here idiots, maybe you should be a little more thoughtful when responding.

Lendale White was the one kicking our(UT) ass not Bush. That was obvious all night long.

[MadMax]

When you are 2-14, you are at restart. No other way around it. The texans aren't going to make the playoffs next year, so I take the best prospect to build around, in my honest opinion, it's Vince(all factors considered). Also, consider Bush and Davis are similar style backs, and unless you can put one in the slot every play(or play WR2 every down), you aren't getting the value you need out of the pick. Plus, Carr would fetch more in a trade easily than Davis would.

no, no no..don't you know anything. reggie bush turns 2-14 teams into playoff contenders. nevermind the fact he didn't touch the ball during the most crucial moments for his team in COLLEGE football's championship. in the pros, he will absolutely turn them into a playoff contender...immediately. no...they really weren't even 2-14 this past season. their talent was sooooo awesome, they were really 7-9...just like last year. you remember...their best season ever. when they won 7 games. awesome!!!

[DVauthrin]

prospect doesn't mean crap until you prove it on the field...it only means that you haven't proven it yet. vince has...and then some.

i hate this argument already. i can't stand these threads that i keep coming back to. i can't stand that the texans are even considering not drafting VY because of the almighty potential of reggie bush and david carr. i just threw up a little bit in my mouth.

What sucks is people think that the Texans can contend next year. I don't see it, the AFC is way too strong for that right now. Thus you take the best player available, all factors considered. That player is Vince. I can't tell you how pissed off I will be if they screw this up. You have a chance to get a great player to build around and GET A ROGER CLEMENS/ASTROS TYPE BUSINESS BOOM in the process. It's a no brainer, and like I said before, if the Texans don't turn it around fast and Vince goes elsewhere and is awesome, they will never live it down.

[MadMax]

What sucks is people think that the Texans can contend next year. I don't see it, the AFC is way too strong for that right now. Thus you take the best player available, all factors considered. That player is Vince. I can't tell you how pissed off I will be if they screw this up. You have a chance to get a great player to build around and GET A ROGER CLEMENS/ASTROS TYPE BUSINESS BOOM in the process. It's a no brainer, and like I said before, if the Texans don't turn it around fast and Vince goes elsewhere and is awesome, they will never live it down.

and i'll be done with them. i get pissed at the very prospect of this happening.

but wait.....no.....this team will kill the pats and the colts with reggie. you're just not seeing it clearly. david carr is a pro-bowler and he just needed bush to remind him of it. he forgot, see. reggie is good at reminding. yeah.

[Cohen]

Lendale White was the one kicking our(UT) ass not Bush. That was obvious all night long.


That's the game that I saw.

[IC2000]

Oh yeah, he really ran all over this college defense.

And notice that I said 'rush' in my previous post since if he's not effective as an RB in the pros that he's not worth a #1 pick (of course I expected you to mention the receiving yards...we'll get to that too though).

His first 12 carries netted his team a whopping 56 yards, of which 18 came on one play. Wooo hooo, what's that awesome average...4.6?

On his very last run, with a tad over 11 minutes remaining in the game and the D backs a bit winded and focusing on Leinart's passing and White's running, he was finally able to scamper for 26 to lift his average.

The reason he was 'underused' was because he was shut down and White was running more effectively.

As for his receiving yards, 26 came on the garbage play at the end with UT in prevent. So 5 catches for 69. Oh yeah, what a stunning performance. He had UT back on their heals ... he really took over and turned the game for SC. :rolleyes:


For one so quick to call others here idiots, maybe you should be a little more thoughtful when responding.


Well, Yea i think you are an idiot if we can just magically take away his good runs. What sense does that make? Seriously come on now. Lets just take away his big runs. :eek:

Lendale white was running well and they were scoring so why not keep going to him.

What about his amazing 30 yard run that put USC up 8, that was worthless right?

I guess it was his fault they could not stop Vince.

What did Bush average on the Season like 8 yards a carry? Its ok though if we take away his long runs then he only averaged 4ypc.

Email that to Casserly

[IC2000]

and i'll be done with them. i get pissed at the very prospect of this happening.

but wait.....no.....this team will kill the pats and the colts with reggie. you're just not seeing it clearly. david carr is a pro-bowler and he just needed bush to remind him of it. he forgot, see. reggie is good at reminding. yeah.

Thanks for this enlightening post. Reggie Bush will not make Carr better, its not like defenses have to key on him or anything.

[MadMax]

Thanks for this enlightening post. Reggie Bush will not make Carr better, its not like defenses have to key on him or anything.

i know...he's gale sayers, right? a sure thing? yeah. right. because history has shown us there are such things as sure things. whatever. there's no sure thing. vince isn't a sure thing, either. you've been watching too much USCPN.

dude...seriously...you got your ass handed to you the last time you doubted vince...you really wanna go that route again?

[IC2000]

i know...he's gale sayers, right? a sure thing? yeah. right. because history has shown us there are such things as sure things. whatever. there's no sure thing. vince isn't a sure thing, either. you've been watching too much USCPN.

Actually i have been watching too much of this.
http://thebestsportsblog.com/images/bigreggiestyle.wmv

If Bush is as good as he appears , our offense will be so good next year if carr can give us anything (a big if). Andre Johnson will be a better player because of bush. It will open up the game so much for him. Andre is a top 5 wr in the nfl with bush.

[MadMax]

Actually i have been watching too much of this.


If Bush is as good as he appears , our offense will be so good next year if carr can give us anything (a big if). Andre Johnson will be a better player because of bush. It will open up the game so much for him. Andre is a top 5 wr in the nfl with bush.

yeah, i know i know...vy is overrated. texas can't win. usc is the greatest team ever. i've heard all of this before. all vy does is keep winning. NEXT!!!

all of bush's 15 carries will take us over the top!!! can't wait!!!

[IC2000]

yeah, i know i know...vy is overrated. texas can't win. usc is the greatest team ever. i've heard all of this before. all vy does is keep winning. NEXT!!!

all of bush's 15 carries will take us over the top!!! can't wait!!!
What bothers me is that people want him so much because he is from houston and from ut. If everyone is so against Carr and think we need a QB, there would have to be someone arguing for Leinart right? This is not the case. I am not saying he isn't a great player but Vince young is only being talked about because of where he is from

And yes Bush will get 15 carries for 130 plus yards

and 5 catches for 70 plus yards

[MadMax]

What bothers me is that people want him so much because he is from houston and from ut. If everyone is so against Carr and thinks we need a QB, there would have to be someone arguing for Leinart right? That is not the case. Vince young is being talked about only because of where he is from.

why do you think that's insignificant??? any business sense at all??? it goes to value of the franchise. it goes to drafting a guy that's adored in the city and the state. save for a few like yourself.

you admitted to be a vince hater. you were wrong about him before. you admitted he proved you wrong. why are you so convinced you're right about him now? and why should the rest of us be persuaded by your arguments about him given how wrong you were about him before?

it bothers you because he's a longhorn. period. the end.

[MadMax]

And yes Bush will get 15 carries for 130 plus yards

and 5 catches for 70 plus yards
'

wanna bet??? seriously. let's bet. i guarantee you he won't put up those numbers regularly in the NFL in his first 2 seasons. i guaran-freaking-tee it.

[IC2000]

why do you think that's insignificant??? any business sense at all??? it goes to value of the franchise. it goes to drafting a guy that's adored in the city and the state. save for a few like yourself.

you admitted to be a vince hater. you were wrong about him before. you admitted he proved you wrong. why are you so convinced you're right about him now? and why should the rest of us be persuaded by your arguments about him given how wrong you were about him before?

it bothers you because he's a longhorn. period. the end.

I am not sure what will happen with Vince, i still dont see him dominating in the NFL. But it does not matter what I think, its what the texans think. Reggie Bush is also a great pick for the team and the Business. Yea Vince would put people in the seats initially (as would Bush), but that would come to an end if we don't start winning. You must also remember that there is a large population that wants Bush. Not everyone is for Vince. Both picks make business sense. Reggie makes more football sense.

[Cohen]

Well, Yea i think you are an idiot if we can just magically take away his good runs. What sense does that make? Seriously come on now. Lets just take away his big runs. :eek:

Lendale white was running well and they were scoring so why not keep going to him.

What about his amazing 30 yard run that put USC up 8, that was worthless right?

I guess it was his fault they could not stop Vince.

What did Bush average on the Season like 8 yards a carry? Its ok though if we take away his long runs then he only averaged 4ypc.

Email that to Casserly



Heh.


I'll try again.... s l o w e r....

'UT shut down his rushing'

Proof:

1. His total rush yards were not impressive with or w/o his one 26 yard run (which I mentioned...read again if you missed it);
2. He could not break one (and only 1) until Leinart and White opened it up for him;
3. They ran White because Bush could not run...that's why they 'stayed with him';
4. That fact that he only had 56 yards on 12 carries is relevant because it shows that he was not helping his team control the ball.


Now it's your turn to argue how one run of 18, one for 26, and the other 11 rushes for 38 total yards whupped UT.

[IC2000]

'

wanna bet??? seriously. let's bet. i guarantee you he won't put up those numbers regularly in the NFL in his first 2 seasons. i guaran-freaking-tee it.

Well thats an exaggeration, those would be ridiculous stats. But I would put Bush's future against Vince's?

[MadMax]

I am not sure what will happen with Vince, i still dont see him dominating in the NFL. But it does not matter what I think, its what the texans think. Reggie Bush is also a great pick for the team and the Business. Yea Vince would put people in the seats initially (as would Bush), but that would come to an end if we don't start winning. You must also remember that there is a large population that wants Bush. Not everyone is for Vince. Both picks make business sense. Reggie makes more football sense.

bush will never have the "it" locally that young will. never. ever. never. taking young is swinging for the fences. there's no doubt it MIGHT not work out. but if it does, it will change the face of your organization forever.

[MadMax]

Well thats an exaggeration, those would be ridiculous stats. But I would put Bush's future against Vince's?

how in the world would you measure that??? how do you compare peyton manning to walter payton?

[IC2000]

Heh.


I'll try again.... s l o w e r....

'UT shut down his rushing'

Proof:

1. His total rush yards were not impressive with or w/o his one 26 yard run (which I mentioned...read again if you missed it);
2. He could not break one (and only 1) until Leinart and White opened it up for him;
3. They ran White because Bush could not run...that's why they 'stayed with him';
4. That fact that he only had 56 yards on 12 carries is relevant because it shows that he was not helping his team control the ball.


Now it's your turn to argue how one run of 18, one for 26, and the other 11 rushes for 38 total yards whupped UT.


You are a lost cause. I am not going to argue with fake stats. You just can't take away whatever runs you want.

[IC2000]

how in the world would you measure that??? how do you compare peyton manning to walter payton?

thats why i had the ? after it. Because I had no idea how to do it. We could set some stats that they would each have to hit.

[MadMax]

You are a lost cause. I am not going to argue with fake stats. You just can't take away whatever runs you want.

his points are valid. bush didn't dominate that game. you and others told us that UT was crazy if they thought that they could slow him down. if they thought that they could beat him. you said that crap. not us. it was wrong.

[MadMax]

thats why i had the ? after it. Because I had no idea how to do it. We could set some stats that they would each have to hit.

but those stats would be relevant for other first year QB's for young and for other first year RB's for bush. comparing the two?? i dont' know how you could logically do that.

[Mr. Clutch]

bush will never have the "it" locally that young will. never. ever. never. taking young is swinging for the fences. there's no doubt it MIGHT not work out. but if it does, it will change the face of your organization forever.

What the heck are you talking about? How do you know he will never have "it"? I have season tickets to the Texans and people had Reggie Bush chants going. If he is good, he will have it, it doesn't matter where he was born.

[IC2000]

his points are valid. bush didn't dominate that game. you and others told us that UT was crazy if they thought that they could slow him down. if they thought that they could beat him. you said that crap. not us. it was wrong.

I was on record saying if i were to bet on the game I would bet the UT moneyline

Stop trying to punish Bush for his one above average but not great game

[Cohen]

I am not sure what will happen with Vince, i still dont see him dominating in the NFL. ...


And you have such a good track record assessing his abilities so far...

[DVauthrin]

You are a lost cause. I am not going to argue with fake stats. You just can't take away whatever runs you want.

He isn't taking away his runs, he's trying to sink it into your head that Reggie Bush was not as big a factor in the game as his stats would suggest. In fact, for much of it, he was a relative non factor.

[MadMax]

What the heck are you talking about? How do you know he will never have "it"? I have season tickets to the Texans and people had Reggie Bush chants going. If he is good, he will have it, it doesn't matter where he was born.

he doesn't have the local love that VY does. it's not even close. turn on your radio. listen to what people are saying here, even. it's not close. let me know when they break into local programming to televise the reggie bush "i'm going pro" press conference.

[Mr. Clutch]

Heh.


I'll try again.... s l o w e r....

'UT shut down his rushing'

Proof:

1. His total rush yards were not impressive with or w/o his one 26 yard run (which I mentioned...read again if you missed it);
2. He could not break one (and only 1) until Leinart and White opened it up for him;
3. They ran White because Bush could not run...that's why they 'stayed with him';
4. That fact that he only had 56 yards on 12 carries is relevant because it shows that he was not helping his team control the ball.


Now it's your turn to argue how one run of 18, one for 26, and the other 11 rushes for 38 total yards whupped UT.

If I'm not mistaken UT gameplanned to stop Bush. So it would be logical that he opened stuff up for Leinart. After Leinart succeeded, thing opened up for Bush and he broke of a real nasty run. You can't discount those, the big runs are exactly what we are missing from Domanick Davis. They would be huge for us.

[IC2000]

And you have such a good track record assessing his abilities so far...

You forgot to add the part where it said it doesn't matter what I think though

[IC2000]

he doesn't have the local love that VY does. it's not even close. turn on your radio. listen to what people are saying here, even. it's not close. let me know when they break into local programming to televise the reggie bush "i'm going pro" press conference.

I guarantee they would have before the Rose Bowl happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who was on the cover of the Chronicle Sports page after we lost the Bush Bowl????

[Mr. Clutch]

he doesn't have the local love that VY does. it's not even close. turn on your radio. listen to what people are saying here, even. it's not close. let me know when they break into local programming to televise the reggie bush "i'm going pro" press conference.

I'm sure more people here love Vince. But to say that Bush won't ever have the love of the fans is an exaggeration. It all depends on how these 2 guys do in the NFL. In my opinion Bush is the best prospect, all the other stuff is distraction. And the fans know who Bush is too. He isn't chopped liver!

[MadMax]

I was on record saying if i were to bet on the game I would bet the UT moneyline

Stop trying to punish Bush for his one above average but not great game


his one not great game??? did you just watch the rose bowl and the fresno state game??? how about his 12 attempts for 86 yards vs. hawaii?? or maybe his 8 attemtps for 51 yards vs. washington??? or his 17 for 82 at Cal???

[MadMax]

I guarantee they would have before the Rose Bowl happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who was on the cover of the Chronicle Sports page after we lost the Bush Bowl????

because we didn't think vy was coming out then!!!

[DVauthrin]

What the heck are you talking about? How do you know he will never have "it"? I have season tickets to the Texans and people had Reggie Bush chants going. If he is good, he will have it, it doesn't matter where he was born.

Uh, yes it does. For one thing the largest Longhorn alumni base or one of them is in Houston(I myself am an alum). Not to mention all the people who watched Vince in High School at Madison. Plus, Houston is always a city that supports its own. Look at Roger Clemens, Hakeem, Clyde, etc. They would treat Vince the same way. It is a lot different supporting your favorite team with a hometown legend leading the way, than without.

[MadMax]

I'm sure more people here love Vince. But to say that Bush won't ever have the love of the fans is an exaggeration. It all depends on how these 2 guys do in the NFL. In my opinion Bush is the best prospect, all the other stuff is distraction. And the fans know who Bush is too. He isn't chopped liver!


he would never have it to the degree young would. that's my point. you're talking about a nolan ryan/earl campbell/hakeem/clemens type situation with vince. with a franchise striving to be texas' team and to have an identity...those things are important.

[Cohen]

...

Stop trying to punish Bush for his one above average but not great game


Especially when he performed so admirably against those storied Pac-10 defenses all year. Oregon's was ranked all the way up at 44th, and the rest of the Pac-10 wasn't that far behind. I mean, most were a little higher than UCLA at 113th and ASU at 114th (you know, just below the Rice, Ball State and Temple defensive powerhouses).

[IC2000]

his one not great game??? did you just watch the rose bowl and the fresno state game??? how about his 12 attempts for 86 yards vs. hawaii?? or maybe his 8 attemtps for 51 yards vs. washington??? or his 17 for 82 at Cal???

since when is 12 for 86 bad???

or 17 for 82??

[MadMax]

Especially when he performed so admirably against those storied Pac-10 defenses all year. Oregon's was ranked all the way up at 44th, and the rest of the Pac-10 wasn't that far behind. I mean, most were a little higher than UCLA at 113th and ASU at 114th.

no, stop. haven't you seen that high school film???

hey..the first time MadMax ever touched a football in an organized game it was on a kickoff return. i ran it all the way back for a TD. the next time i touched it was off a handoff. i ran it about 50 yards for a TD. wow. i'm still not as good as VY. :)

[DVauthrin]

I was on record saying if i were to bet on the game I would bet the UT moneyline

Stop trying to punish Bush for his one above average but not great game

Then stop punishing Vince for the A&M game, his one bad(for his standards) performance all year.

[IC2000]

Especially when he performed so admirably against those storied Pac-10 defenses all year. Oregon's was ranked all the way up at 44th, and the rest of the Pac-10 wasn't that far behind. I mean, most were a little higher than UCLA at 113th and ASU at 114th.

Thats not his fault or problem. He is a great player against any team, much like Vince who also lit up a bunch of trash defenses too. Thats how college football works bud, you can't punish these guys for who they play against. They would not be great players if they did not dominate these "storied" defenses.

[MadMax]

since when is 12 for 86 bad???

or 17 for 82??

it's not bad, per se. but i want a bit more from the first pick in the draft. i want a little more than 12 touches in a game. that's just me, though. if his college team can't give the ball to him 12 times against a Pac 10 defense, why am i expected to believe he'll shoulder the load against NFL defenses?

[Cohen]

since when is 12 for 86 bad???

or 17 for 82??


When your O Line is prob the best in the nation, you have an excellent QB, excellent receivers, another good RB in the backfield, and you're playing against horrible defenses.

[DVauthrin]

it's not bad, per se. but i want a bit more from the first pick in the draft. i want a little more than 12 touches in a game. that's just me, though. if his college team can't give the ball to him 12 times against a Pac 10 defense, why am i expected to believe he'll shoulder the load against NFL defenses?

Because (insert ESPN announcer here) Reggie Bush is the next Barry Sanders/Gale Sayers. He was the best player in college or pro this year, and EVER.

[MadMax]

Thats not his fault or problem. He is a great player against any team, much like Vince who also lit up a bunch of trash defenses too. Thats how college football works bud, you can't punish these guys for who they play against. They would not be great players if they did not dominate these "storied" defenses.


is USC a trash defense?? i thought they were the greatest team ever. he lit them up like a freaking torch.

[IC2000]

it's not bad, per se. but i want a bit more from the first pick in the draft. i want a little more than 12 touches in a game. that's just me, though. if his college team can't give the ball to him 12 times against a Pac 10 defense, why am i expected to believe he'll shoulder the load against NFL defenses?

Its hard to spread the ball between two first round nfl draft picks. Also, were those games blowouts? Maybe bush did not need to do anymore or was not playing?

[MadMax]

Because (insert ESPN announcer here) Reggie Bush is the next Barry Sanders/Gale Sayers. He was the best player in college or pro this year, and EVER.

damn, i forgot again.

[IC2000]

Because (insert ESPN announcer here) Reggie Bush is the next Barry Sanders/Gale Sayers. He was the best player in college or pro this year, and EVER.

They aren't saying the same about Vince? :confused:

[MadMax]

Its hard to spread the ball between two first round nfl draft picks. Also, were those games blowouts? Maybe bush did not need to do anymore or was not playing?

ok...so cut every question against VY and give reggie the benefit of the doubt on every question. got it.

[IC2000]

When your O Line is prob the best in the nation, you have an excellent QB, excellent receivers, another good RB in the backfield, and you're playing against horrible defenses.

Are you talking about Vince or Reggie, you could insert either there, except switch QB with RB

[DVauthrin]

Its hard to spread the ball between two first round nfl draft picks. Also, were those games blowouts? Maybe bush did not need to do anymore or was not playing?

One problem. Vince sat out the 4th quarter of his games routinely, even the 3rd quarter in some cases. So while Bush would have improved his stats, so would Vince.

[MadMax]

They aren't saying the same about Vince? :confused:

no one compared him to gale sayers. they didn't run weeks of highlight footage next to some nfl great telling us how he was already being inducted into the NFL hall of fame.

vince got his fame when it mattered most...AFTER the game. because he put up the results.

[IC2000]

ok...so cut every question against VY and give reggie the benefit of the doubt on every question. got it.

Don't you see its an argument? You take sides :eek:

You do the same with Vince as i do with Reggie

[IC2000]

One problem. Vince sat out the 4th quarter of his games routinely, even the 3rd quarter in some cases. So while Bush would have improved his stats, so would Vince.
This has nothing to do with what i am talking about, i appreciate the effort though

[Cohen]

Thats not his fault or problem. He is a great player against any team, much like Vince who also lit up a bunch of trash defenses too. Thats how college football works bud, you can't punish these guys for who they play against. They would not be great players if they did not dominate these "storied" defenses.


Try to follow the logic here.

1. You claim he's a sure thing.
2. The first 'real' defense he played against this year...and he was unimpressive. He wasn't even the best RB on his team.
3. He also was not too impressive against several weak Ds.

Conclusion: He's fast, has talent, he's no sure thing.

[MadMax]

Don't you see its an argument? You take sides :eek:

You do the same with Vince as i do with Reggie

NO I DO NOT!!!

i'll tell you right now VY isn't a sure thing. it's a risk either way. it always is. i'm telling you the upside with VY because it's Houston...because it's Texas...is far greater than it is with Bush. i'm saying it's worth the risk. and i don't see how you could let david carr get in the way of that possibility.

[IC2000]

Try to follow the logic here.

1. You claim he's a sure thing.
2. The first 'real' defense he played against this year...and he was unimpressive. He wasn't even the best RB on his team.
3. He also was not too impressive against several weak Ds.

Conclusion: He's fast, has talent, he's no sure thing.
I was impressed in the UT game by Bush, Young, White , thomas and Jarrett

Agree to disagree.

I hope the texans agree with me

[DVauthrin]

They aren't saying the same about Vince? :confused:

Are you living under a rock? If they were then Vince would not be behind Leinart and Bush on Kiper's draft board. They gave him credit, but they did not anoint him the best player in all of football this year, nor did they turn him into an all time great before he steps foot in the NFL. Not to mention, did an ESPN announcer compare Bush to any RB busts? No. But Merrill Hoge had the audacity to compare Vince to Ryan Freakin Leaf.

[Cohen]

Are you talking about Vince or Reggie, you could insert either there, except switch QB with RB



But you're the one saying Reggie is a sure thing, which I have never argued about Vince. Any draft pick is a gamble.


And FWIW .... Vince delivered under pressure and Reggie did not. Big difference there.

[NIKEstrad]

I guarantee they would have before the Rose Bowl happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who was on the cover of the Chronicle Sports page after we lost the Bush Bowl????

All under the pretenses of Vince heavily leaning towards staying in school.

And I have no doubt Bush will have a better rookie season than Vince. Even a brilliant QB like Manning threw more INTs than TDs his rookie year. It's just easier for any RB to go into a system.

All I know is, Vince undoubtedly has the cool head and leadership qualities a QB needs. On top of that, he has other worldly athletic and physical gifts. Will he make it for sure? I don't know. But I sure wouldn't bet against him, and after all you've said about him, and the plates of crow you should be eating for it, you shouldn't either.

[IC2000]

Are you living under a rock? If they were then Vince would not be behind Leinart and Bush on Kiper's draft board. They gave him credit, but they did not anoint him the best player in all of football this year, nor did they turn him into an all time great before he steps foot in the NFL. Not to mention, did an ESPN announcer compare Bush to any RB busts? No. But Merrill Hoge had the audacity to compare Vince to Ryan Freakin Leaf.

umm did you watch the gameday crew?

[IC2000]

But you're the one saying Reggie is a sure thing, which I have never argued about Vince. Any draft pick is a gamble.


And FWIW .... Vince delivered under pressure and Reggie did not. Big difference there.

fine nobody is a sure thing, you win that.

I think bush is as close to a sure thing as can be

[Cohen]

... But Merrill Hoge had the audacity to compare Vince to Ryan Freakin Leaf.


You're ****ing kidding.

Vince is a leader and winner and leaf is a head case.

[Cohen]

...

I think bush is as close to a sure thing as can be


That's cool.

[DVauthrin]

umm did you watch the gameday crew?

All they said was that was a bowl performance for the ages if I remember correctly. Corso said we may never see a performance like that again, and you know what odds are he is right.

People did not put Vince in the hall of fame even after the Rose Bowl, when if anyone deserved it was him. But now people still question his motion among other things, and he is not getting unanimous love AS AN NFL PROSPECT like Bush from every talking head.

[DVauthrin]

You're ****ing kidding.

Vince is a leader and winner and leaf is a head case.

Sadly I'm not. http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=football&Number=3913129&page=2&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=1

[IC2000]

why do you think that's insignificant??? any business sense at all??? it goes to value of the franchise. it goes to drafting a guy that's adored in the city and the state. save for a few like yourself.

you admitted to be a vince hater. you were wrong about him before. you admitted he proved you wrong. why are you so convinced you're right about him now? and why should the rest of us be persuaded by your arguments about him given how wrong you were about him before?

it bothers you because he's a longhorn. period. the end.

I find it funny when people use the merchandise and attendance argument when saying why VY should be picked. A week ago this was the same stuff that was being used as to why they should take Bush.

[IC2000]

All they said was that was a bowl performance for the ages if I remember correctly. Corso said we may never see a performance like that again, and you know what odds are he is right.

People did not put Vince in the hall of fame even after the Rose Bowl, when if anyone deserved it was him. But now people still question his motion among other things, and he is not getting unanimous love AS AN NFL PROSPECT like Bush from every talking head.

I believe he said to take him number one and that Vince was the best college QB ever

[DVauthrin]

I believe he said to take him number one and that Vince was the best college QB ever

Oh good one person supports Vince for number 1. And Best college QB is a lot different than the NFL Hall of Fame. Vince actually put up numbers in that setting worthy of that discussion, Bush hasn't played a down in pro football.

[Cohen]

If I'm not mistaken UT gameplanned to stop Bush. So it would be logical that he opened stuff up for Leinart. After Leinart succeeded, thing opened up for Bush and he broke of a real nasty run. You can't discount those, the big runs are exactly what we are missing from Domanick Davis. They would be huge for us.


IC2000 was arguing at the time that Bush was a sure thing for the NFL. He's not. You cannot argue a RB's excellence when it's a bunch of weak Pac10 Ds. Once he finally met a defense with consistent speed and good tackling, they effectively shut down his effectiveness. W/o an awesome O line and other serious offensive threats, he would not have even had the 1 26 yarder late in the game. I.e., he could not swing a championship college game w/o a ton of help.

Personally, I think he will do well in the NFL, but it's not a given. He'll be up against fast corners and d backs every week.

[percicles]

You could see it in Lienart eyes, especially after the interception (should have been picked off 3 times), that the UT defense was unlike anything he'd seen all year or last. The whole USC offense looked suprised. Reggie couldn't break off his 50+ yards around the ends coz UT's db were quick to get the angle and cut him off. The WR weren't left wide open like in other games. Then he gets sacked 3 times. To his credit though they adjusted in the second half and then it was on. Thats why that game is classic. Just 2 heaveywieghts going back and forth, regardless of some of the fumbles & no calls.

The Irony though was that Lienart should have thrown 3 interception. The one that bounced off Ross(or Griffin) in the endzone, the one Griffin snatched in the air, and the one Kelson came down with. But VY had zero int and only once, during the final drive, did he come close to getting picked off. Yet VY gets criticized for his passing.

... oh and they had Darnell Bing in the secondary who ESPN dubbed the next Ronnie Lott. So thier secondary was above average.

[halfbreed]

I was on record before the Rose Bowl stating that the Texans shouldn't take Reggie Bush. Do I have permission to talk about VY now?

[Groogrux]

A week ago this was the same stuff that was being used as to why they should take Bush.

Oh God, you do not get it. Of course everyone was saying that about Bush a week ago. BECAUSE NO ONE THOUGHT VINCE YOUNG WAS COMING OUT.

BTW, if we take Bush and we have a 4th and 2 in a game in mid-October, I will have just one question. Will Bush get the coach Gatorade or water? I think Pete Carroll preferred water.

[MadMax]

I find it funny when people use the merchandise and attendance argument when saying why VY should be picked. A week ago this was the same stuff that was being used as to why they should take Bush.

honestly, if you can't see the difference between bush and young for the Texans from a marketing standpoint, i don't know what else to say.

[DaDakota]

IC2000,

An honest question.....


Do you think that the Texans would get more fans with Reggie Bush or Vince Young?

DD

[pgabriel]

You could see it in Lienart eyes, especially after the interception (should have been picked off 3 times), that the UT defense was unlike anything he'd seen all year or last. The whole USC offense looked suprised. Reggie couldn't break off his 50+ yards around the ends coz UT's db were quick to get the angle and cut him off. The WR weren't left wide open like in other games. Then he gets sacked 3 times. To his credit though they adjusted in the second half and then it was on. Thats why that game is classic. Just 2 heaveywieghts going back and forth, regardless of some of the fumbles & no calls.




unfortunately no one is talking about the game enough.