[GRAPHIC] Three Christian Schoolgirls Beheaded

[Svpernaut]

The image has been edited for those too afraid to see the truth first hand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4421924.stm

Men held over Sulawesi beheadings
Four men have been arrested in connection with the beheadings of three schoolgirls in Indonesia last month.

The Indonesian military said the men, who have not been identified, were being held for questioning.

The teenagers were attacked on their way to their Christian school near the city of Poso, in the eastern province of Sulawesi, on 29 October.

Jakarta said recent attacks on the island were an attempt to foment religious hostility.

'Masked attackers'

A girl who survived the attack reportedly told police there were six machete-wielding attackers, dressed in black and wearing masks.

About 400 police and 600 troops were ordered into the area following the incident amid fears that the killings would reignite religious unrest.

Sulawesi province has a long history of violence between Muslim and Christians.

More than 1,000 people were killed in religious clashes in the province between 2000 and 2001.

In the latest incident, gunmen shot and critically wounded two schoolgirls in Poso, on Tuesday.

"The perpetrators are believed to aim at provoking the religious emotions of the people in Poso so that unrest erupts," said Andi Mallarangeng, a spokesman for Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

[MadMax]

hey, let's lose the picture.

[DonnyMost]

Put the picture in a link, at least..

[MR. MEOWGI]

Go Rockets!

[Svpernaut]

It says graphic in the title. I didn't post this for entertainment, people need to see the things these monsters do.

[mc mark]

You're an ass

[Svpernaut]

You're an ass

Why? Because I'm not afraid to post the whole truth unlike the US media?

[mc mark]

Nope! You're just an ass.

You think posting pictures like that is going to change people's minds?

[Sishir Chang]

Why? Because I'm not afraid to post the whole truth unlike the US media?

Do you think that the US media should show graphic pictures of wounded and dead Iraqis, Afghanis and US soldiers like the kind that are shown on Al Jazeera?

[MadMax]

Why? Because I'm not afraid to post the whole truth unlike the US media?

it's just a matter of human dignity. that's a little girl. a real person. it's bad enough it happened...we don't need it blasted all over the place.

[Sishir Chang]

This is situation is definately despicable and awful. I think it is important to note though that the conflict between Muslims and Christians in Sulawesi is not new and there have been attrocities on both sides. Not to excuse what these barbarians have been done but it would be a mistake to consider this an aberrant act.

[wnes]

I only see one head, where are the other two? You need to list them all to complete the *picture*.

[mc mark]

it's just a matter of human dignity. that's a little girl. a real person. it's bad enough it happened...we don't need it blasted all over the place.

It doesn't matter to people Svpernaut.

Just like it doesn't matter to people like Bush who can make fun of someone who's been put to death. They're both on the same level as the people that do this kind of stuff. Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

[Svpernaut]

it's just a matter of human dignity. that's a little girl. a real person. it's bad enough it happened...we don't need it blasted all over the place.

Most Christians would strongly disagree. It does need to be blasted all over the place, otherwise the true horridness of these acts would never be known. We show girls getting abducted all over TV and people getting shot by police, don't tell me we don't show graphic violence in the news. The world NEEDS to see actions like these to help strengthen the resolve in the fight against these bastards.

[Svpernaut]

Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

Don't lie, feel free to find ANYWHERE I posted that.

[mc mark]

Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

There I said it again

[MadMax]

Most Christians would strongly disagree. It does need to be blasted all over the place, otherwise the true horridness of these acts would never be known. We show girls getting abducted all over TV and people getting shot by police, don't tell me we don't show graphic violence in the news. The world NEEDS to see actions like these to help strengthen the resolve in the fight against these bastards.

I don't know what most Christians would say. I can't imagine Jesus Christ would think it's a real neat idea to display a little girl's dead body sitting next to her severed head. I'm one of his followers, and I think the dignity of that little girl is worth far more than any political message is.

And if this is causing you or others to harbor hatred in your heart...then it's a stumbling block there, too. According to that Jesus guy, that makes us muderers.

[Svpernaut]

Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

There I said it again

And you are obviously a liar.

I don't know what most Christians would say. I can't imagine Jesus Christ would think it's a real neat idea to display a little girl's dead body sitting next to her severed head. I'm one of his followers, and I think the dignity of that little girl is worth far more than any political message is.

And if this is causing you or others to harbor hatred in your heart...then it's a stumbling block there, too. According to that Jesus guy, that makes us muderers.

This article was passed on to me by 3 different "large" Christian news letters, so Christians do want to see this so they can pray and fight for their fellow Christians. Last I checked the Bible said to stand up against persecution of Christians. It isn't a "neat idea" to post these pictures, and it certainly isn't for "political purposes" am I running for office here? It is simply something many Americans and Christians want and/or need to see.

[Azadre]

Don't lie, feel free to find ANYWHERE I posted that.
You said it in the torture thread.

[mc mark]

If I'm lying, I'm dyin'

Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

thegary even said he wanted to help with gas and beer money

[MadMax]

This article was passed on to me by 3 different "large" Christian news letters, so Christians do want to see this so they can pray and fight for their fellow Christians. Last I checked the Bible said to stand up against persecution of Christians. It isn't a "neat idea" to post these pictures, and it certainly isn't for "political purposes" am I running for office here? It is simply something many Americans and Christians want and/or need to see.

it doesn't have a political purpose? really? what else is it about, then?

where does the Bible say to stand up against persecution of Christians? Jesus said we should expect to be persecuted. i'm not saying that God's judgment doesn't include force on this earth...because it very well could. but Christians in this region are guilty of doing the same type thing to Muslims. Christians in Eastern Europe used Christianity as a means to persecute the hell out of Muslims...including raping women, killing children and torture.

you certainly should be praying for persecuted believers. absolutely. you should also be praying for the redemption of the hearts of the men who were capable of doing this. but do you need to see the picture to get there? the story alone is enough...it's horrific enough without having to see a little girl's head severed from her body.

[Svpernaut]

You said it in the torture thread.

Lies, lies, lies. Either learn how to tell the truth, or learn how to read.

I'm also not saying "skin them alive"...

I never said "torture them all"...

[wnes]

This article was passed on to me by 3 different "large" Christian news letters,

What are they?

[halfbreed]

I'm not going to look at the picture. However, I find it hard to believe that some on this thread are giving these girls an equal footing with terrorists. These girls did nothing wrong and to attempt to justify their murders by saying it's been happening for sometime on both sides is disgusting.

There is a huge difference between the killing of enemies in a conflict and the kidnapping and beheading of INNOCENTS. If the US army kidnapped Iraqi civilians and killed them in cold blood I would be just as disgusted (actually, much more disgusted). No targeting of innocents should ever be justified and any attempt to do so is morally repugnant.

[halfbreed]

If I'm lying, I'm dyin'

Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

thegary even said he wanted to help with gas and beer money

Well since so many on this board ask for definitive proof of themselves saying they support terrorists (which is stupid because nobody ever comes out and says it) why don't you go a dig up said thread and post it for all of us to see? It can't be that hard and he's posted in this thread two responses that directly refute what you're saying.

[mc mark]

Well since so many on this board ask for definitive proof of themselves saying they support terrorists (which is stupid because nobody ever comes out and says it) why don't you go a dig up said thread and post it for all of us to see? It can't be that hard and he's posted in this thread two responses that directly refute what you're saying.

Look it up yourself

Svpernaut himself said he wanted to skin terrorists alive.

[FranchiseBlade]

This article was passed on to me by 3 different "large" Christian news letters
They are out spreading the gospel and the good news again?

[Svpernaut]

it doesn't have a political purpose? really? what else is it about, then?

Last I checked I am a Christian, and I want to see FIRST HAND what my Christian brothers and sisters go through... it helps me keep the faith and be a strong beleiver. Muslims do this all the time, feed off the hatred of their beliefs and see the horrid actions against their fellow muslims, and I'm sure it makes their faith stronger... but no one jumps down their throats when they do it. If you don't have the stomach to handle this images, fine I can't really blame you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't HELP others and it certainly shouldn't be censored. I love how many liberals are all for freedom of speach and the press unless it is something like this, that "offends" them.

[jo mama]

Most Christians would strongly disagree.

do you have a poll to back up that assertion?

[MadMax]

Last I checked I am a Christian, and I want to see FIRST HAND what my Christian brothers and sisters go through... it helps me keep the faith and be a strong beleiver. Muslims do this all the time, feed off the hatred of their beliefs and see the horrid actions against their fellow muslims, and I'm sure it makes their faith stronger... but no one jumps down their throats when they do it. If you don't have the stomach to handle this images, fine I can't really blame you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't HELP others and it certainly shouldn't be censored. I love how many liberals are all for freedom of speach and the press unless it is something like this, that "offends" them.

i'm not trying to preach to you...but please don't feed off hatred for faith. feeding off hatred and anger has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ went to the cross...he was persecuted...he was victimized...when Peter tried to stand up to fight back, he told him to stop. i don't believe God has a favorite when he looks down on all of us continuing the chain of violence over and over again. these children are victims of that chain. victims of a world that's rejected God's ways for their own. Jesus Christ is about redemption of that world.

i love how conservatives freak out about nipples but are willing to display a little girl's severed head. ;)

[Saint Louis]

It says graphic in the title. I didn't post this for entertainment, people need to see the things these monsters do.

How is this any worse then what some of the perverts in this country do to young girls. I believe one was just convicted in Florida for killing a young girl. Is it the beheading that makes this worse or the fact that a Muslim did it to a Christian? Evil can reside in the heart of anyone. It doesn't make a difference what race the person is, where they live or what religion they follow. The BTK killer was a Christian and was very involved in the Lutheran church; yet he loved to commit horrible acts of evil in his spare time. Let's try not to generalize this act has an us against them scenario or would you like a modern day crusade against the entire Muslim world?

[Saint Louis]

i love how conservatives freak out about nipples but are willing to display a little girl's severed head. ;)

Sadly some of the biggest hypocrites in the world can be found in our neighborhood churches.

[insane man]

Most Christians would strongly disagree. It does need to be blasted all over the place, otherwise the true horridness of these acts would never be known. We show girls getting abducted all over TV and people getting shot by police, don't tell me we don't show graphic violence in the news. The world NEEDS to see actions like these to help strengthen the resolve in the fight against these bastards.

so shouldn't the world also see all the torture/rape/murder certain* military personnel committed against prisoners so we can stop these bastards in our administration from supporting such torture? would you support releasing ALL the photos?

ps: did you just link the bbc and say 'us media doesn't cover stuff like this'?

*i dont think all the troops are involved in this. and i certainly dont think even those who committed these atrocities are the only ones to blame. i think its the administration. so dont go TJ on me and say i hate the troops. thanks.

[MadMax]

Sadly some of the biggest hypocrites in the world can be found in our neighborhood churches.

we're all hypocrits.

[mc mark]

we're all hypocrits.

Don't sell yourself short Max! You're a saint compaired to this clown.

[NJRocket]

Muslims chopping innocent people's heads off. Boy, I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

[Saint Louis]

Muslims chopping innocent people's heads off. Boy, I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

Faux News wants to know if the girls were raped before they were beheaded.

[Jeff]

Tell you what, how about we say it this way so that it is totally clear.

Removing that picture has NOTHING to do with not being able to stomach it.

On this BBS, nobody better ever post something that disgusting. The owner of this BBS has three little girls of his own as do many others on this board. The dismembered bodies of children have ZERO place on here EVER for any reason at any time.

Hope that is clear enough.

[Saint Louis]

we're all hypocrits.

And we can all be evil or good.

[wnes]

The image has been edited for those too afraid to see the truth first hand. CLICK HERE (http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/JAK09D_RTRIDSP_3_INDONESIA_Reuters_Alertnet.jpg) if you aren't afraid to see the truth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4421924.stm



I could find nowhere in the link to the BBC report that image. Who edited it?

[mc mark]

Tell you what, how about we say it this way so that it is totally clear.

Removing that picture has NOTHING to do with not being able to stomach it.

On this BBS, nobody better ever post something that disgusting. The owner of this BBS has three little girls of his own as do many others on this board. The dismembered bodies of children have ZERO place on here EVER for any reason at any time.

Hope that is clear enough.

Thanks Jeff

[Svpernaut]

Don't sell yourself short Max! You're a saint compaired to this clown.

I'm the clown? I'm not the one openly lying about someone else on the board, and when asked to back up the statements can't do it... You just point the finger and say "he said skin them alive" yet you have no proof, infact, there is ample proof proving that point wrong and you're still ignorant enough to keep it up.

so shouldn't the world also see all the torture/rape/murder certain* military personnel committed against prisoners so we can stop these bastards in our administration from supporting such torture? would you support releasing ALL the photos?

ps: did you just link the bbc and say 'us media doesn't cover stuff like this'?

*i dont think all the troops are involved in this. and i certainly dont think even those who committed these atrocities are the only ones to blame. i think its the administration. so dont go TJ on me and say i hate the troops. thanks.

Last time I checked there were PLENTY of pics of the prisoner abuse on the news, it wasn't covered up.

i'm not trying to preach to you...but please don't feed off hatred for faith. feeding off hatred and anger has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ went to the cross...he was persecuted...he was victimized...when Peter tried to stand up to fight back, he told him to stop. i don't believe God has a favorite when he looks down on all of us continuing the chain of violence over and over again. these children are victims of that chain. victims of a world that's rejected God's ways for their own. Jesus Christ is about redemption of that world.

If this doesnt' anger you on a Christian level then I'm not sure weather to envy or pity you... The bible says turn the other cheek but it also says an eye for an eye. There are some people in this world that MUST be dealt with in a confrontational way, and the Bible was filled with many of those. We are talking about animals who severed the heads of three freaking school girls for Pete's sake, all because they were Christian. you cannot compare Christ willingly being sacrificed for all of man-kind to these girls being slain. It was Christs calling to do just that, to die and be raised again, but it wasn't these girl's calling. They didn't willingly go, and they shouldn't have to because Christ already had them covered in that aspect.

[mc mark]

Svpernaut can you tell us all why you want to skin terrorist alive?

[Svpernaut]

Svpernaut can you tell us all why you want to skin terrorist alive?

Can you tell me where I said that? Feel free, it has been proven in this thread that I didn't.

[Saint Louis]

If this doesnt' anger you on a Christian level then I'm not sure weather to envy or pity you... The bible says turn the other cheek but it also says an eye for an eye. There are some people in this world that MUST be dealt with in a confrontational way, and the Bible was filled with many of those. We are talking about animals who severed the heads of three freaking school girls for Pete's sake, all because they were Christian. you cannot compare Christ willingly being sacrificed for all of man-kind to these girls being slain. It was Christs calling to do just that, to die and be raised again, but it wasn't these girl's calling. They didn't willingly go, and they shouldn't have to because Christ already had them covered in that aspect.

The eye for the eye is from the Old Testament where they talked about ripping open the bellys of pregnant women too. Try reading the New Testament sometime.

Nobody is saying that the people who did this shouldn't be dealt with it, but treat this as an attack on humanity and not a crusade against Christianity.

[mc mark]

I mean, how would you do it? Would you start skinning someone at the head and work down? Or do it in pieces? How?

[MadMax]

If this doesnt' anger you on a Christian level then I'm not sure weather to envy or pity you... The bible says turn the other cheek but it also says an eye for an eye. There are some people in this world that MUST be dealt with in a confrontational way, and the Bible was filled with many of those. We are talking about animals who severed the heads of three freaking school girls for Pete's sake, all because they were Christian. you cannot compare Christ willingly being sacrificed for all of man-kind to these girls being slain. It was Christs calling to do just that, to die and be raised again, but it wasn't these girl's calling. They didn't willingly go, and they shouldn't have to because Christ already had them covered in that aspect.

the whole thing makes me sad, frankly. it all sucks. the fact that "Christian gangs" roam that city setting fire to mosques and "cleansing" the area of Muslims makes me sad...they use my Lord, Jesus Christ, to justify that. that makes me sad. it makes me sad to see Christians persecuted for their beliefs, as well...for remaining faithful. it makes me sad to see violence done to children for any reason. innocence stolen. that makes me incredibly sad.

but i will not be controlled by anger. and i won't feed off it to serve a God who says that harboring it in my heart makes me a murderer.

none of that means i'm not advocating justice. none of that means i wouldn't support bringing these people to account for their actions. they should be.

[wnes]

Svpernaut, I am asking you again. I don't see that image on the BBC report - you said it was edited out. Did you get the pic from one of those 3 Christian Newsletters in the email and post it here to spice up the news?

[Svpernaut]

Svpernaut, I am asking you again. I don't see that image on the BBC report - you said it was edited out. Did you get the pic from one of those 3 Christian Newsletters in the email and post it here to spice up the news?

The image is from Reuters, I'll see if I cant track down the original, but even if I could I can't post it here... not gonna piss the Clutch Crew off, it's their site, their rules.

[Saint Louis]

not gonna piss the Clutch Crew off, it's their site, their rules.

That's the best news I've heard all day.

[mc mark]

Man this sucks!

I can't find anything on google about skinning people. Svpernaut help me out here!

[Jeff]

Last time I checked there were PLENTY of pics of the prisoner abuse on the news, it wasn't covered up.

Yes, but not on this board.

[Svpernaut]

the whole thing makes me sad, frankly. it all sucks. the fact that "Christian gangs" roam that city setting fire to mosques and "cleansing" the area of Muslims makes me sad...they use my Lord, Jesus Christ, to justify that. that makes me sad. it makes me sad to see Christians persecuted for their beliefs, as well...for remaining faithful. it makes me sad to see violence done to children for any reason. innocence stolen. that makes me incredibly sad.

but i will not be controlled by anger. and i won't feed off it to serve a God who says that harboring it in my heart makes me a murderer.

none of that means i'm not advocating justice. none of that means i wouldn't support bringing these people to account for their actions. they should be.

Just because I believe people need to see the images doesn't mean I am they (or me) are going to be controlled by anger. Just as mc mark keeps trying to get me "upset" by knowing lying about me saying skinning of prisoners is okay. I don't get upset, things such as these only strengthen my resolve. mc marc can act like a two year old all he wants... and these radicals can be heinous all they want, it isn't going to turn people off from being Christian.

The eye for the eye is from the Old Testament where they talked about ripping open the bellys of pregnant women too. Try reading the New Testament sometime.

Nobody is saying that the people who did this shouldn't be dealt with it, but treat this as an attack on humanity and not a crusade against Christianity.

The new testement isn't the only part of the Bible. If we were all "friendly" and turned the other cheek we wouldn't be where we are today. The way Christ acted is not possible for all people to do, he doesn't expect you to turn the other cheek when you are being persecuted for your beliefs, and especially when innocent children are. If that were the case there would be no Christians in the military, or police force... there are times when you havve to act, times such as these. I don't "hate" muslims because of this, but I do wish more muslim leaders would openly and vocally chastise and rebuke actions such as these, but they don't. I have muslim friends and co-workers and I didn't even see this as a bash on muslims, because obviously this is a small sect of their peaceful religion, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[mc mark]

Just as mc mark keeps trying to get me "upset" by knowing lying about me saying skinning of prisoners is okay. I don't get upset, things such as these only strengthen my resolve. mc marc can act like a two year old all he wants... and these radicals can be heinous all they want, it isn't going to turn people off from being Christian.



Hey! I'm just going by what you said! You said you wanted to skin terrorists alive. Don't blame me because you have no honor in our soul. I am disappointed though that you won't share your people skinning skills with us.

[wnes]

The image is from Reuters, I'll see if I cant track down the original, but even if I could I can't post it here... not gonna piss the Clutch Crew off, it's their site, their rules.

That's all I need to know. So the pic has never been with the BBC article, you searched the pic by yourself to match it with the BBC report.

I doubt you can win anyone over in D&D by sensationalizing a news report with gruesome and graphic pictures. The reactions in this thread so far couldn't be clearer.

[Svpernaut]

Hey! I'm just going by what you said! You said you wanted to skin terrorists alive. Don't blame me because you have no honor in our soul. I am disappointed though that you won't share your people skinning skills with us.

lol! I've posted twice the exact words I said (once in this post and once in the last one) and you are still sticking to your story. Thanks for the laugh.

[mc mark]

You find skinning people alive funny?

[pirc1]

Man this sucks!

I can't find anything on google about skinning people. Svpernaut help me out here!

Oh it used to be a very common execution method in China a few hundred years back. Dig a little harder on google ;)

[Svpernaut]

You find skinning people alive funny?

Keep fishing.

[Svpernaut]

That's all I need to know. So the pic has never been with the BBC article, you searched the pic by yourself to match it with the BBC report.

I doubt you can win anyone over in D&D by sensationalizing a news report with gruesome and graphic pictures. The reactions in this thread so far couldn't be clearer.

The original article with picture was from Reuter's (http://www.alertnet.org) which is there for "Alerting humanitarians to emergencies". I used the BBC link because it doesn't require a logon and attached the picture to it.

[pippendagimp]

"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"


-Barbara Bush on Good Morning America, March 18, 2003

[mc mark]

Your still an ass

Simply because I believe some torture is warranted doesn't mean we should skin them all... but it also shouldn't mean that commanders don't have the power to use torture in extreme cases.

[Svpernaut]

Your still an ass

It should read "you're still an ass"... and you just proved yourself a liar by quoting me, it says DOESN'T as clear as day. Thanks for the laughs!

[Deckard]

Tell you what, how about we say it this way so that it is totally clear.

Removing that picture has NOTHING to do with not being able to stomach it.

On this BBS, nobody better ever post something that disgusting. The owner of this BBS has three little girls of his own as do many others on this board. The dismembered bodies of children have ZERO place on here EVER for any reason at any time.

Hope that is clear enough.
Thanks, Jeff. My imagination is plenty graphic enough, whether it's small Christian children, small Muslim children, or small children of any faith. We know horror goes on around the world. I don't need to have it, "shoved in my face." This place is available for members to talk about the subject, if they wish. We should be grateful for the privilege. And I have a 10 year old daughter, if that matters.



Keep D&D Civil.

[jo mama]

I'm the clown? I'm not the one openly lying about someone else on the board, and when asked to back up the statements can't do it... You just point the finger and say "he said skin them alive" yet you have no proof, infact, there is ample proof proving that point wrong and you're still ignorant enough to keep it up.

i dont know why im defending him, but he actually said "I'm also not saying "skin them alive" or anything ridiculous, but there are means of torture that are successful without causing extreme harm or death."

however, there is always that qualifer in there. "i dont advocate skinning them alive, BUT..."

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=104581&page=2&pp=30

however, i think most experts agree that torture is not a reliable way to gather information, which seems to be your only justification for it in the first place.

like dubya likes to say, there is no grey area here. you are either for torture or against it.

Last time I checked there were PLENTY of pics of the prisoner abuse on the news, it wasn't covered up.

didnt the bush administration fight tooth and nail to keep even worse pics from comming out earlier this year? pics that even rummy admitted showed rape and murder? even children? one might say it was "covered up".

[wnes]

It should read "you're still an ass"... and you just proved yourself a liar by quoting me, it says DOESN'T as clear as day. Thanks for the laughs!

What's implied is "skin some of them if necessary."

[mc mark]

What's implied is "skin some of them if necessary."

Like his pres, he doesn't do nuance.

[insane man]

didnt the bush administration fight tooth and nail to keep even worse pics from comming out earlier this year? pics that even rummy admitted showed rape and murder? even children? one might say it was "covered up".

no. not all of them were released. in fact a vast majority weren't.

and even though this fellow might not have said skin them alive...i like mc mark's ardent pursuit of this line of questioning. so continue.

[underoverup]

The image has been edited for those too afraid to see the truth

You are completely disgusting and should be banned.

[Moe]

Last I checked I am a Christian, and I want to see FIRST HAND what my Christian brothers and sisters go through... it helps me keep the faith and be a strong beleiver. .

That's the most disgusting, perverted example of Christianity I've ever seen anyone admit to. You need to see horrible violence to get pumped up for God and strengthen your faith. Wow. I'll bet Jesus is beaming with pride over that testimonial.

[Deckard]

Maybe we should do everyone a favor and lock this one up.



Keep D&D Civil.

[Mr. Brightside]

I want to see graphic pictures. But thats probably b/c i'm a sick ****.

Ok, back to ogrish.com for me.

[Jeff]

The way Christ acted is not possible for all people to do, he doesn't expect you to turn the other cheek when you are being persecuted for your beliefs, and especially when innocent children are. If that were the case there would be no Christians in the military, or police force...

What Christians do and what Jesus taught are often two separate things. Jesus didn't stop Peter from fighting and then say, "Yeah, but if little children are being tortured, open up a can of whoop ass." He didn't say to turn the other cheek UNLESS we live in violent times - and, to be honest, the times he lived in were FAR more violent than ours are by virtually every standard.

I think you probably ought to reconsider putting words in the mouth of Christ. When Jesus said, "If someone steals your coat, give him your cloak also" and "Let he who is among you who is without sin cast the first stone," he didn't use qualifiers.

What you THINK he meant and what he ACTUALLY SAID are two wholly different things and unless I missed something and you really are a theological scholar, I'm thinking you might want to make liberal use of the IMO in statements like these.

[MadMax]

What Christians do and what Jesus taught are often two separate things. Jesus didn't stop Peter from fighting and then say, "Yeah, but if little children are being tortured, open up a can of whoop ass." He didn't say to turn the other cheek UNLESS we live in violent times - and, to be honest, the times he lived in were FAR more violent than ours are by virtually every standard.

I think you probably ought to reconsider putting words in the mouth of Christ. When Jesus said, "If someone steals your coat, give him your cloak also" and "Let he who is among you who is without sin cast the first stone," he didn't use qualifiers.

What you THINK he meant and what he ACTUALLY SAID are two wholly different things and unless I missed something and you really are a theological scholar, I'm thinking you might want to make liberal use of the IMO in statements like these.

an excellent post from a Christian who doesn't think he is one :)

[GladiatoRowdy]

What Christians do and what Jesus taught are often two separate things. Jesus didn't stop Peter from fighting and then say, "Yeah, but if little children are being tortured, open up a can of whoop ass." He didn't say to turn the other cheek UNLESS we live in violent times - and, to be honest, the times he lived in were FAR more violent than ours are by virtually every standard.

I think you probably ought to reconsider putting words in the mouth of Christ. When Jesus said, "If someone steals your coat, give him your cloak also" and "Let he who is among you who is without sin cast the first stone," he didn't use qualifiers.

What you THINK he meant and what he ACTUALLY SAID are two wholly different things and unless I missed something and you really are a theological scholar, I'm thinking you might want to make liberal use of the IMO in statements like these.

Extraordinarily well said.

[thegary]

an excellent post from a Christian who doesn't think he is one :)

no max, see his sig, i bet you agree wholeheartedly with its message. does that make you a buddhist?

svpernaut, wow, i used to think you were funny. i have a strong constitition so my problem is not "stomaching" graphic images. my problem is a total lack of desire to incorporate unpleasantness into my life. you are a freak, have a nice day.

[mc mark]

I thought you wanted to buy him beers!?

[Sishir Chang]

There is a huge difference between the killing of enemies in a conflict and the kidnapping and beheading of INNOCENTS. If the US army kidnapped Iraqi civilians and killed them in cold blood I would be just as disgusted (actually, much more disgusted). No targeting of innocents should ever be justified and any attempt to do so is morally repugnant.

I believe that comment was directed to me since I brought up the issue that this has been a conflict going on for awhile with attrocities on both sides.

If you see my post I don't excuse this act at all and call it despicable. My main point though was to caution turning this into a straight up religious conflict where we debate it here in terms of Christian vs. Muslims with the automatic presumptions that Muslims are barbarians, the ones who carried this out is are, and Christians are innocent victims. The Sulawesi conflict has been going on for a while attrocities were committed on both sides. There was a Christian militia group that called themselves "Ninjas" who went around massacring Muslims and dumping their bodies into rivers. This conflict also isn't purely about religion but has a lot more to do with control of economic resources and local political control.

So yes this is a despicable act committed by despicable people who are Muslims but this isn't part of an international Holy War but a vicious local conflict pertaining to local issues.

http://www.insideindonesia.org/edit70/Poso1.htm

[Sishir Chang]

The bible says turn the other cheek but it also says an eye for an eye. There are some people in this world that MUST be dealt with in a confrontational way, and the Bible was filled with many of those.

What Christians do and what Jesus taught are often two separate things. Jesus didn't stop Peter from fighting and then say, "Yeah, but if little children are being tortured, open up a can of whoop ass." He didn't say to turn the other cheek UNLESS we live in violent times - and, to be honest, the times he lived in were FAR more violent than ours are by virtually every standard.

This ties back to a question that I had in some of the other threads regarding Christianity and the New vs. Old Testament. As Christians how do you reconcile contradictions between the two?

Svpernaut you've previously said that the New overrules the Old where they may contradict so to me that would seem imply that "Turn the other cheek" overrules "An Eye for an Eye". Also given that one of the Commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill" how does that work with "Eye for an Eye" or the killing done in the name of God in the Old Testament? It seems to me that the Sixth Commandment should be "Thou Shalt Not Kill, without Good Cause."

I hope this doesn't come off as a slam against Christianity but this is something I am curious about.

[MR. MEOWGI]

This ties back to a question that I had in some of the other threads regarding Christianity and the New vs. Old Testament. As Christians how do you reconcile contradictions between the two?

Svpernaut you've previously said that the New overrules the Old where they may contradict so to me that would seem imply that "Turn the other cheek" overrules "An Eye for an Eye". Also given that one of the Commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill" how does that work with "Eye for an Eye" or the killing done in the name of God in the Old Testament? It seems to me that the Sixth Commandment should be "Thou Shalt Not Kill, without Good Cause."

I hope this doesn't come off as a slam against Christianity but this is something I am curious about.

Well now they say it should be interpreted as "Though should not murder" instead of kill. Also does this apply to animals etc.? It doesn't say it shouldn't.

[rimbaud]

I ill not look at the image but 10 bucks says it is Svpernaut's new wallpaper.

Sishir - he probably doesn't know where Indonesia (with his "brothers") is, so you ask too much for him to know what might be going on there.

[jo mama]

does that make you a buddhist?


jesus was a buddhist (at least in practice)

[thegary]

I thought you wanted to buy him beers!?

well, that was just my charitable christian facet leaking out, oops.

[MadMax]

This ties back to a question that I had in some of the other threads regarding Christianity and the New vs. Old Testament. As Christians how do you reconcile contradictions between the two?

Svpernaut you've previously said that the New overrules the Old where they may contradict so to me that would seem imply that "Turn the other cheek" overrules "An Eye for an Eye". Also given that one of the Commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill" how does that work with "Eye for an Eye" or the killing done in the name of God in the Old Testament? It seems to me that the Sixth Commandment should be "Thou Shalt Not Kill, without Good Cause."

I hope this doesn't come off as a slam against Christianity but this is something I am curious about.

not a slam at all. it's a great question. a difficult question. and i'm not sure there's any one answer in all of Christendom. :) i think you've seen that today...in this very thread.

i think, as a Christian, that everything is to be viewed through the lens of Christ. it sounds simplistic, but the the hokie What Would Jesus Do makes sense to me in this debate. you saw the mercy he had...that's what everyone knows. of course, there was also the side that called the religious rulers of the day "snakes" and charged into the temple turning over the tables of money changers. any misuse of God was something that clearly bothered him.

i don't "live" in theology. i live in what I know of Christ today. trying to truly serve him as my Lord (with full meaning to that word). so these questions are important in the sense that this is framing how I understand God to be. but it seems sort of off to the side for me. i'm much more concerned/interested/passionate about God changing peoples' lives right now. watching Him bring light where there's darkness.

[MadMax]

Well now they say it should be interpreted as "Though should not murder" instead of kill. Also does this apply to animals etc.? It doesn't say it shouldn't.

i won't back away from what the commandments say. but i can tell you that i've talked to tons of different people about that...people who've studied the language..and they all say that the earliest manuscripts translate to mean "murder" and not, merely, "kill."

[Saint Louis]

What Christians do and what Jesus taught are often two separate things. Jesus didn't stop Peter from fighting and then say, "Yeah, but if little children are being tortured, open up a can of whoop ass." He didn't say to turn the other cheek UNLESS we live in violent times - and, to be honest, the times he lived in were FAR more violent than ours are by virtually every standard.

I think you probably ought to reconsider putting words in the mouth of Christ. When Jesus said, "If someone steals your coat, give him your cloak also" and "Let he who is among you who is without sin cast the first stone," he didn't use qualifiers.

What you THINK he meant and what he ACTUALLY SAID are two wholly different things and unless I missed something and you really are a theological scholar, I'm thinking you might want to make liberal use of the IMO in statements like these.

Jeff this once again proves you were paying attention in religion class at LHN. :D

[Jeff]

an excellent post from a Christian who doesn't think he is one :)

Actually, I take that as a great compliment. Christianity is just one part of my belief system, so, that coming from Max means a lot. :)

[KingCheetah]

Most Christians would strongly disagree.

Last I checked I am a Christian, and I want to see FIRST HAND what my Christian brothers and sisters go through...

I love how many liberals are all for freedom of speach and the press unless it is something like this, that "offends" them.

If this doesnt' anger you on a Christian level then I'm not sure weather to envy or pity you...
______

You're just a little too into the whole "I'm a good Christian so I had to post images of mutilated little girls." slant.




sick

[giddyup]

<b>Addendum to my Last Will & Testament</b>

If I should be beheaded by Muslim extremists, anyone (and I mean anyone) has my explicit permission to post a picture of my head, my headless body, or any combination thereof. :D

[MadMax]

Actually, I take that as a great compliment. Christianity is just one part of my belief system, so, that coming from Max means a lot. :)

i'll sell you absolution from your sins, if you're interested. interesting trades considered.

[RocketMan Tex]

<b>Addendum to my Last Will & Testament</b>

If I should be beheaded by Muslim extremists, anyone (and I mean anyone) has my explicit permission to post a picture of my head, my headless body, or any combination thereof. :D


Fine....but do we get to choose where it gets published???? :eek: ;)

[giddyup]

Fine....but do we get to choose where it gets published???? :eek: ;)
Anyone, anywhere.

Don't you think a Playbody centerfold would be nice? :eek:

People need to have their emotions moved by the ugliness of this. That won't happen unless it is somewhat graphically expressed.

Our enemy is eager to die, while our soldiers fight to stay alive. Our guys and gals are at a severe disadvantage.

Our enemy is willing and eager to kill civilians in order to kill a single infidel. Our forces have an accident and we call for an inquiry, a suspension, a court martial, an impeachmenet, and a Sunday night movie script. Our war effort is at a severe disadvantage.

[mc mark]

Our enemy is willing and eager to kill civilians in order to kill a single infidel. Our forces have an accident and we call for an inquiry, a suspension, a court martial, an impeachmenet, and a Sunday night movie script. Our war effort is at a severe disadvantage.

What's that line?

"Doing what's right almost always entails doing what's hard."

Or something like that...

;)

[Trader_Jorge]

....stuff like this happens, yet some people still think that these people should be covered under the Geneva Convention? What a joke. Targeting civilians excludes them from coverage under that accord. Heck, not wearing a uniform excludes them. Beheading three young girls? Uh, yeah, if you were these girls' parents would you be treating their Koran with extra special care? That's funny.

[MadMax]

....stuff like this happens, yet some people still think that these people should be covered under the Geneva Convention? What a joke. Targeting civilians excludes them from coverage under that accord. Heck, not wearing a uniform excludes them. Beheading three young girls? Uh, yeah, if you were these girls' parents would you be treating their Koran with extra special care? That's funny.

as far as i can tell, this isn't al qaeda. i don't this is "war on terror" related. i could be wrong, though. my understanding is that Christians and Muslims have been slaughtering each other in that area for years.

[FranchiseBlade]

The new testement isn't the only part of the Bible. If we were all "friendly" and turned the other cheek we wouldn't be where we are today. The way Christ acted is not possible for all people to do, he doesn't expect you to turn the other cheek when you are being persecuted for your beliefs,
Please go to a bible study. Go to a college and audit a course on the bible, that deals with this. Reread the bible.

I think you missed the whole part about Jesus being persecuted and even crucified for his beliefs and turning the other cheek. That is exactly what he did, and he even asked God to forgive the very people who were doing that.

The very meaning of that story was somehow lost on you. It is an important part of the Christian faith.

As Max has pointed out, nowhere in the bible does it tell Christians to stand up and fight when they are presecuted.

The example of Jesus' death and his own words and behavior on the subject talk about loving your enemy and turning the other cheek.

I agree we can't always do exactly what Christ did, but it is wrong to justify our actions by saying that Christ doesn't expect us to follow his examples unless it is easy to do so. When ever times get tough he expects us to start fighting and torturing.

[jo mama]

Our forces have an accident and we call for an inquiry, a suspension, a court martial, an impeachmenet, and a Sunday night movie script. Our war effort is at a severe disadvantage.

link please?

by accident, do you mean naked iraqi pyramid?
or perhaps by accident you mean accidental death by waterboarding?
or were you just hyperbolizing?

[thegary]

Beheading three young girls?

let the skinning begin

[FranchiseBlade]

Anyone, anywhere.

Don't you think a Playbody centerfold would be nice? :eek:

People need to have their emotions moved by the ugliness of this. That won't happen unless it is somewhat graphically expressed.

Our enemy is eager to die, while our soldiers fight to stay alive. Our guys and gals are at a severe disadvantage.

Our enemy is willing and eager to kill civilians in order to kill a single infidel. Our forces have an accident and we call for an inquiry, a suspension, a court martial, an impeachmenet, and a Sunday night movie script. Our war effort is at a severe disadvantage.
We are at an even greater disadvantage if we torture, since the intel experts say that information gathered during torture isn't reliable, and the U.S. armed forces are against torturing and say that it is counter-productive

[mc mark]

let the skinning begin

Hey! Give him some slack. He made a post without once using the words liberals or traitor.

[thacabbage]

Svpernaut:

Your train of logic is so flawed. You basically posted that pic as proof of the atrocities committed against Christians to justify the torture you advocated in the earlier thread. However, noone is doubting that these things occur. This isn't the shocking revelation you attempted to make it out to be. All it is is a further testament to your disgusting, childish personality that you would post such a graphic image on a public message board.

What is sad is your generalization of "these monsters" as one homogeneous entity. Does it make no difference to you that the detainees at Abu Ghraib are never even tried and possibly devoid of ties to Al-Qaeda? Does it not matter because they're not Christian so it's "ok" to rape and murder a few innocent Iraqis?

What's further puzzling is that you denounce such acts of barbarism yet want the United States Army to lower its standards down to this level.

[rhester]

I read the WHOLE thread so far word for word.(glad I don't do that too often)

We must pray.

I just prayed for the salvation of these men who did this horrible thing, that God would grant them the repentance and forgiveness that is in Christ.

prayed for the families affected by this murder.

prayed for the horrible hatred in this area between people. prayed for the churches there, those who follow Christ and those who abuse His name.

Jesus Christ died for this sin. Yes, this atrocity. He offered His life for these men. Yes, He gave His life for these very men who are filled with hate.

His suffering was a payment for the penalty they deserve for this. If Jesus died for such horrible men, to offer forgiveness, we must tell them.

Yes, there is future judgment for such atrocities, all injustices. But what sin will God wink at? None I am sure.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. It is the mission and purpose of Christians to take this message to every person, in remote jungles, war torn countries and yes even where we may be granted the martyr's crown.

There is something we Christians can do. We can pray. We can also go to these places and share the hope and forgiveness of Christ. Yes to these who do these things.

We must talk less here and go and tell these who murder, rape and hate that Jesus Christ died for them also.

That is who we are. This is what we do. This is our Lord's work in us.

Also- Any picture of this terrible act would not be appropriate. Let us weep and pray; and love our enemies and Christ's enemies.

I ask all the Christians to pray and be a part of the answer to your prayer.

[MadMax]

Jesus Christ died for this sin. Yes, this atrocity. He offered His life for these men. Yes, He gave His life for these very men who are filled with hate.



I ask all the Christians to pray and be a part of the answer to your prayer.

1. wow...very well said.

2. wow...very well said.

[bnb]

... and be a part of the answer to your prayer.

Don't know if that's a rhester original or not....but i like it. A lot.

Thanks

[rhadamanthus]

This article was passed on to me by 3 different "large" Christian news letters, so Christians do want to see this so they can pray and fight for their fellow Christians. Last I checked the Bible said to stand up against persecution of Christians. It isn't a "neat idea" to post these pictures, and it certainly isn't for "political purposes" am I running for office here? It is simply something many Americans and Christians want and/or need to see.

Funny ****.

I'm pretty sure Max is 100x the christian you pretend to be Svpernaut.

Which is poignant, considering your "views" tend to follow the current mainstream christian rhetoric. Which, needless to say, is not christianity at all.

If there was ever proof that my views on religion are justified - this is about the best yet. What a ****ed up world.

[insane man]

Svpernaut:

Your train of logic is so flawed. You basically posted that pic as proof of the atrocities committed against Christians to justify the torture you advocated in the earlier thread. However, noone is doubting that these things occur. This isn't the shocking revelation you attempted to make it out to be. All it is is a further testament to your disgusting, childish personality that you would post such a graphic image on a public message board.

What is sad is your generalization of "these monsters" as one homogeneous entity. Does it make no difference to you that the detainees at Abu Ghraib are never even tried and possibly devoid of ties to Al-Qaeda? Does it not matter because they're not Christian so it's "ok" to rape and murder a few innocent Iraqis?

What's further puzzling is that you denounce such acts of barbarism yet want the United States Army to lower its standards down to this level.

checkmate.

[Sishir Chang]

Our enemy is willing and eager to kill civilians in order to kill a single infidel. Our forces have an accident and we call for an inquiry, a suspension, a court martial, an impeachmenet, and a Sunday night movie script. Our war effort is at a severe disadvantage.

Yeah it sucks being civilized don't it.

FYI this particular conflict has nothing to do with the US.

[rhadamanthus]

Svpernaut you've previously said that the New overrules the Old where they may contradict so to me that would seem imply that "Turn the other cheek" overrules "An Eye for an Eye". Also given that one of the Commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill" how does that work with "Eye for an Eye" or the killing done in the name of God in the Old Testament? It seems to me that the Sixth Commandment should be "Thou Shalt Not Kill, without Good Cause."


According to Svpernaut it's whatever you want it to be:

Of course the Bible is open to interpretation but that doesn't mean it isn't God's words exactly how he wanted them to be... God gave us free will and imaginations for a reason. If he wanted us all to read one thing and all believe it exactly the same he wouldn't have given us free will to begin with.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=104036&page=3&pp=30

[thegary]

HOPE

I hope:

we can one day forgive the men who did this horrible thing.

we hold vigil for the families affected by this murder.

we all can stop committing atrocoities in the name of religion.

we come to understand the great sacrifice made all over the world by those who gave their lives to protect others..

we talk less here and go and tell these who murder, rape and hate that the human race will no longer stand for this.

that this is who we are, that this is what we do.

[MadMax]

If there was ever proof that my views on religion are justified - this is about the best yet. What a ****ed up world.

just so long as it doesn't affect your view of Jesus Christ, that's cool. why don't you consult your Bible for more information on this topic.


;) (still trying!!)

[giddyup]

...or were you just hyperbolizing?
How about just making a point? The Sunday night movie script thing was a dead giveaway...

[giddyup]

What's that line?

"Doing what's right almost always entails doing what's hard."

Or something like that...

;)
And that line has multiple interpretations...

[Saint Louis]

[QUOTE=rhester]I read the WHOLE thread so far word for word.(glad I don't do that too often)

We must pray.
QUOTE]

Excellent post.

A Christian should never condone hate. Hate only breeds more hate.