Who would you want the Texans to DRAFT?

[Luckyazn]

This site seems pretty split between drafting Bush/Leinert/D'Brick

Which scenerio would you prefer to happen on Draft Day 06'


Draft Leinert to replace Carr
Draft Reggie Bush (cant pass up a player like him)
Draft D'Brick to fix the OL
Trade the top pick down to get more picks

[Groogrux]

Pull the 2004 Charger move. Trade down a few spots, pick up some extra picks in this year's draft in addition to another first rounder next season. Then take D'Brickshaw.

[Gummi Clutch]

There is no easy fix to this team.
I doubt one player will be able to help them as much as several picks.
Just keep in mind a quote from the All Knowing Madden "A good offensive line takes 4-5 years"

No, this doesnt mean one more year
It means they probably wont be any good until 5 years from now.

[gucci888]

I think our best option would be to trade down for a top 5 pick and a 2nd rounder, pick up Ferguson with the higher pick and maybe a WR with the 2nd.

[Luckyazn]

1. Bring in Jimmy Johnson GM/Coach
2. Draft Reggie Bush

doesnt matter what happen with 3. 4.....

[msn]

2. Draft Reggie Bush
Huh? Where's the Leinhart love affair? Is DD your new scapegoat?

[gbritton]

we gotta trade down... many teams are going to want to the number 1 spot in the draft to pick up leinhart. since there are a lot of teams that really need a QB, it makes it more likely that teams will have to give up a little more for that spot. so it would be awesome to trade down the pick and get their first round pick for this comming year...and get their first round draft pick the following year as well. if we dont trade down too far for this year we should be able to still pick up brickshaw. if not... no biggie. there are a lot of OL in this draft.

its hard to pass up on bush, but how many carries can he handle per game in the nfl... b/c he doesnt get a lot of touches now already. i believe white will be the better RB in the nfl than bush. he is bigger and can take more punishment than the small guy in bush. people consistenly over look white's numbers... i dont feel like lookin them up at this moment, but i encourage you too look them up.

[rrj_gamz]

Trade down, but you need to find someone dumn enough that wants Bush or Matt, enough to get 2 number ones (this and next ala Ravens w/ Boller and Texans with Babin)...

[Ric]

how many carries can he handle per game in the nfl... b/c he doesnt get a lot of touches now already.
i wonder why that is....

white
oh, yeah, now i remember.

bush is on pace to have more carries this year than brown did last year with auburn and he was a top five pick.

people consistenly over look white's numbers... i dont feel like lookin them up at this moment, but i encourage you too look them up.
ok. bush averages 185 yards of offense a game; white 119. bush has more rushing yards, more receiving yards and handles both kick and punt return duties. and when did 6'0", 200 become too small for the NFL?

[mateo]

Cutler will be a better NFL QB.....trust me.

[DieHard Rocket]

This is the year to trade down if you ever do...

teams will be lining up at the door to get Leinart or Bush at 1/2. We just have to get the right deal to do it.

[Luckyazn]

Huh? Where's the Leinhart love affair? Is DD your new scapegoat?

I still dont think Carr is it but it looks like we're going to keep him and pick up his option :rolleyes: , so you can not pass up a player like REGGIE BUSH.

[TMac640]

Just keep in mind a quote from the All Knowing Madden "A good offensive line takes 4-5 years"



madden obviously hasn't tried juicing his players.

works damn well (see blitz the league)

[Nick]

While Bush is getting the majority of the votes, the poll is flawed because you have two options that are splitting most of the votes (D'Brick, trade down) that could end up being the same thing.

In theory, the Texans could trade down to #3, and still get D'Brick.

Still, in the end, there are more people voting to not get Bush over getting Bush... and IMO, you have to fix the line before you can start improving ANYTHING else on this team.

Bush isn't the greatest college RB ever that's just happening to come out this year... I remeber Kijana Carter being a much bigger name. Quality RB's come out every year, and they don't have to be the #1 pick in the draft to have a very successful NFL career. The same can't be said for franchise Left tackles... there really hasn't been one since Pace/Boseli came out at the same time... if D'Brick is it (and the draft is due to have one), you take him.

[gucci888]

While Bush is getting the majority of the votes, the poll is flawed because you have two options that are splitting most of the votes (D'Brick, trade down) that could end up being the same thing.

In theory, the Texans could trade down to #3, and still get D'Brick.

Still, in the end, there are more people voting to not get Bush over getting Bush... and IMO, you have to fix the line before you can start improving ANYTHING else on this team.

Bush isn't the greatest college RB ever that's just happening to come out this year... I remeber Kijana Carter being a much bigger name. Quality RB's come out every year, and they don't have to be the #1 pick in the draft to have a very successful NFL career. The same can't be said for franchise Left tackles... there really hasn't been one since Pace/Boseli came out at the same time... if D'Brick is it (and the draft is due to have one), you take him.

Good post Nick. If the Texans can trade down, pick up Ferguson, and another 2nd rounder, possibly another 1st, that would be the best possible draft for us.

Bush is a very talented player, but like Nick said, RBs come out all the time. Good LT are hard to come by, there talking about this Ferguson kid like he's one of the best to come out in a while.

[Luckyazn]

D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT, Virginia 6'5 295

I know we're hearing about him more because of our need at LT but I'm wondering comparing to past LT that had came out, is he more compare to

Jordon Gross & Robert Gallery

or

Jonathan Ogden & Orlando pace

mock draft 2006 Texans picks D'Brickashaw Ferguson (http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/index.cfm)

[Summer Song Giver]

I gotta go with Fergusen as well, it suits our needs and his talent seems to justify the pick.

[Summer Song Giver]

I gotta go with Ferguson as well, it suits our needs and his talent seems to justify the pick.

[Kerfeld]

Da Brick!

[TigerBait]

"Da Brick Wall" Ferguson (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ot/dbrickashawferguson.html)

[Rocket Fan]

mateo...

I even read one article saying some scouts quietly think cutler is the better QB.. even though leinart will be top qb selected.. cutler may very well be one of the top 3 qbs picked..

[leehoang]

Somehow, someway...

Draft:

1. Reggie Bush = A very good RB
2. Marcus Vick = Can't fix the OL, so draft a QB who can run.

Fire: Dom Capers and the rest of the coaching staff.

Hire: Jimmy Johnson

06-07: We win 8-10 games, guaranteed.

[Chance]

JJ in the offseason.

RB 1st pick

2-14 behind same lously line.

VY next year.

Then I'd be good with the Texans.

[VesceySux]

JJ in the offseason.

RB 1st pick

2-14 behind same lously line.

VY next year.

Then I'd be good with the Texans.

Then VY suffers a career-ending injury behind the "same lousy line."

And Chance is no longer "good with the Texans."

[gunn]

and when did 6'0", 200 become too small for the NFL?

Exactly. The people on this board questioning that are the same people that will tell you that L.T. is the best back in the NFL all the while failing to realize the he was only 206 lbs coming out of college. And scouts are saying that they have Reggie Bush rated higher than they did L.T. The guy is the definitive "best player in the country".

[Nick]

Exactly. The people on this board questioning that are the same people that will tell you that L.T. is the best back in the NFL all the while failing to realize the he was only 206 lbs coming out of college. And scouts are saying that they have Reggie Bush rated higher than they did L.T. The guy is the definitive "best player in the country".

All this really says to me is that there are great RB's basically every year in the draft. Hell, last year there were 2 backs on ONE college team that went in the top 5 picks (Brown, Cadillac).

Bush may not even be that much better than his counterpart at USC... once again, we're looking to BUILD this team.

There will be RB's in the future... maybe even better than Bush... there might not be stuf LT's, however (just like there hasn't been any since Pace/Boseli).

[reggietodd]

I heard matt jackson on 610 tonight say that he would not pick up the 8 million dollar option on Carr and I agree with him.

[gunn]

All this really says to me is that there are great RB's basically every year in the draft. Hell, last year there were 2 backs on ONE college team that went in the top 5 picks (Brown, Cadillac).

That doesn't mean that you will have a chance to draft one. And one has nothing to do with the other.

Bush may not even be that much better than his counterpart at USC... once again, we're looking to BUILD this team.

Although both may go in the first round, that is laughable. White is not even in the same stratosphere as Bush. Again, White is a good back, but he posesses none of the vision, speed, quickness, or the overall explosiveness that Bush has.

There will be RB's in the future... maybe even better than Bush... there might not be stuf LT's, however (just like there hasn't been any since Pace/Boseli).

As I have previously stated in other posts, you DO NOT need to have an Orlando Pace to have a good offensive line.

[gucci888]

As I have previously stated in other posts, you DO NOT need to have an Orlando Pace to have a good offensive line.

But you need good players, right now, we have none on the OL. If you have a chance to pick up a franchise type tackle like Pace or Walter Jones, and you're biggest hole is the OL, then it would be very silly not to pick him up.

Bush would be a great pick if we needed a RB, but we aren't in dire need of one. Right now we have a chance of picking up an unbelievable prospect at tackle, and if fits our need.

[EddieWasSnubbed]

This has literally nothing to do with this thread, other than I think maybe the Texans should take a look at this guy when/if going after another speedster reciever. Anyone remember Jeremy Bloom? The Colorado WR/skiier, who got his eligibility revoked for accepting skiing endorsements(a move which I still think is complete crap on the NCAA's part to this day)? Here's a great ESPN article about him. It focuses a lot on his skiing career, but if you look through that, it's a good football article:



NFL looms, but Bloom looking for Olympic berth
By Lindsay Berra
ESPN The Magazine



As the Jamaican sun beat down upon him, Jeremy Bloom was thinking only one thing: he needed to earn some points.

He had already won the half-mile run and finished second in the kayak race, the bike race and the swim, but he'd been disqualified from the rock climb. ("I was a little too aggressive," he said). Sound crazy? That's because it was.


CBS has held its annual SuperStars competition in exotic places for more than 30 years (remember Heavyweight champ Joe Frazier nearly drowning in the '70s?), and Bloom planned to win the 2003 version.

To do it, he'd have to win the 100-yard dash and place at least fourth in the obstacle course. Against professional football players Dexter Jackson, Charlie Garner, Ahman Green, Will Allen and Hines Ward, neither would be easy.

The obstacle course and track were set up in a fenced-off area away from the Montego Bay resort area, where the other events were held. On the surrounding fields and beach, local Jamaicans of all ages played soccer and cooked on barbecues, but when the competition began, nearly everyone drifted over to peek through the chain-link fence.

Bloom, 21 at the time, barely edged out Formula One driver Thomas Schecter for fourth place in the obstacle course behind three football players; there was no way the 5-foot-9, 175-pound Bloom could push a sled as far as Dexter Jackson, anyway. For Bloom, the 100 was the moment of truth.

In mere seconds, the NFL got a preview of what, if all goes according to plan, it's going to get next year. Bloom shot off the line and ran step for step with Green, one of the NFL's blazers. By the end of the race, Bloom was 3 full yards ahead of Green. At the finish, the clock read 9.41 seconds. Green and Ward were left shaking their heads, Bloom had won his competition and cemented himself into the consciousness of the NFL's elite.

It is that kind of explosiveness that has defined Bloom's athletic career thus far, and it is that kind of explosiveness that he hopes will carry him through his next three challenges.

First is making the 2006 U.S. Olympic ski team. Despite Bloom's skiing successes (most recently, six consecutive World Cup victories last season) and mainstream popularity, an Olympic bid is no guarantee. Four spots are available for the moguls competition and there are a dozen skiers, including Bloom, Travis Cabral, 2002 silver medalist Travis Mayer, Toby Dawson and Nate Roberts, who have a shot.


After that, he'll start on the next challenge: medaling in Turin. In Salt Lake City in 2002, Bloom finished ninth overall in the freestyle moguls.

"As a skier, I'm so much better than I was in 2002," Bloom said. "The tricks I'm doing are so much harder. I've made a lot of progress with my speed, so I'm a lot faster and a lot more dynamic in the turns."

The moguls team leaves for fall camp in Wolf Creek, Colo., on Nov. 19 to train for the start of the upcoming season. There will be seven World Cup events before Turin and three of the U.S. Ski team spots will be determined by points earned in those competitions. On Dec. 30-31 in Steamboat Springs, Colo., the 16 members of the U.S. moguls team will compete in the anyone-can-win U.S. Olympic trials. The winner, regardless of previous performance, gets an automatic trip to Turin.

"Getting to the Olympics will be a difficult path for all of our athletes," U.S. moguls coach Scott Rawles said. "Going into the coming season, the slate is clean. The only thing the skiers are guaranteed is their World Cup starts."

For Bloom, that means taking his training one day at a time.

"I try to just focus on what I have to do on a daily basis," he said. "There are a lot of important dates coming up, but the way I've been able to prepare with the most success is to worry about today. I feel good, I feel like I'm in great shape and I believe I did everything I could over the spring, summer and fall to prepare for Olympic competition."

That included trips to U.S. Skiing's water ramps in Utah to learn new tricks, training trips to South America and Europe, and daily five-hour training sessions in the gym.

"Just a lot of plyometrics," he said with a smirk.

The moguls finals in Turin take place on Feb. 15. After that race and six years on the U.S. Ski Team, Bloom will say farewell to skiing and begin his third project: making the NFL. Just one week after the Olympics, Bloom, accompanied by his newly appointed football agent Gary Wichard, is expected to attend the NFL combine at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis.

There, Bloom plans to run the 40-yard dash in 4.2 seconds.

"I know I can impress the scouts with speed," Bloom said. "It's the big reason I had success in Colorado. Speed is what I bring to the table and in the NFL, you have to be fast."

Bloom, an All-State football player at Loveland (Colo.) High School, played two years for the University of Colorado before having his eligibility revoked by the NCAA for accepting scholarships that afforded him his ski career.

It has been two years since he's touched a football, which speaks to why he selected Wichard as his front man. Wichard represents several players who at one point were question marks, most notably Dwight Freeney, drafted 11th overall by the Colts in 2002 when no one wanted to touch a 6-foot-0 defensive end, and Adam Archuleta, a skinny linebacker who had never played safety and was taken 20th overall by the Rams in the 2001 draft.

Bloom's question mark is obvious, but in just two years of college football, he managed to accumulate stats so impressive that Wichard believes he'll go on the first day of the NFL draft in April. As a receiver/kick returner, Bloom averaged 19 yards per reception, 14 yards per punt return and 28 yards per kickoff return, all numbers that put him amongst college football's elite. Had he finished out his college career, it is only natural to think his numbers would have improved even further.

"I want Jeremy to go as high as possible in the draft and then prove people right," Wichard said. "I don't want him to go lower and then have to prove people wrong. I would be happy with a first-day pick, but that's not the ceiling for me."

Bloom's explosive speed -- the same speed that won the 100 at the SuperStars competition two years ago -- makes NFL scouts salivate.

"That word, explosive, is paramount to Jeremy's life, both on mountains and on the football field," Wichard said. "He is the most explosive player in this draft, without hesitation."

Bloom plans to add 10 pounds by the time he does his NFL pro-day workout in the spring, but the current success of smaller wide receivers like Washington's Santana Moss (5-foot-10, 190 pounds) and Carolina's Steve Smith (5-foot-9, 185 pounds) gives even more credence to the idea that it is OK to take a chance on less-than-hulking speedsters with on-field savvy. And Bloom, negating those who say football has nothing to do with skiing, thinks he has plenty of it.

"It's all about your reactions," Bloom said. "When you ski moguls, you're going so fast that all you see are colors and your senses take over. You're looking ahead all the time. You have to be able to read things and adjust, just like you do when you're running through the secondary or returning a punt or a kickoff."

Or exploding on to a brand-new scene.



ESPN's link (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/columns/story?id=2223938)

[Chilly_Pete]

D'brick please.

[gucci888]

I heard matt jackson on 610 tonight say that he would not pick up the 8 million dollar option on Carr and I agree with him.

That's easy for Matt Jackson or anyone of us to say. I'm not sure what to do though. On one hand, he hasn't really warranted that 8M option, but I don't like the idea of just letting him walk and only having Banks to back him up.

Also, there are players like Leinart that are available this summer, and there will be studs like VY and Vick available next summer. But I do get the feeling Carr will get the extension.

[DUCK2324]

Trade down and pick up extra 2nd or 3rd this year and an extra 1st for next year.
Pick the Brick
roll your dice for one more year on Carr. If he dos not pan out then you have 2 #1's next year that would allow you to move up and take VICK, YOUNG or Quinn

[DUCK2324]

This draft has 2 extreme Studs that will make people do a ricky williams move. Those 2 positions(QB,RB) are not our biggest weaknest so we would be able to clean house and still fill our biggest need with a bookend takle.

[swilkins]

I can't believe the majority of the people here are rooting for Bush.

RB is not what this team is lacking now.

[MadMax]

Trade down and pick up extra 2nd or 3rd this year and an extra 1st for next year.
Pick the Brick
roll your dice for one more year on Carr. If he dos not pan out then you have 2 #1's next year that would allow you to move up and take VICK, YOUNG or Quinn

i agree with this.

[reggietodd]

I can agree that we may not need a RB and if we did or didn't draft Bush i'd be OK with it, but I think any of you who just think Reggie Bush is just an ordinary running back like Cadillac Williams or Ronnie Brown is smoking crack and I question if you've really ever seen him play and hopefully you will be in my fantasy football league next year so that you'll pass on Bush and I can draft him. :)

[msn]

hopefully you will be in my fantasy football league next year so that you'll pass on Bush and I can draft him. :)
That's just it. The Texans need to win football games, not fantasy football games.

[Groogrux]

I can agree that we may not need a RB and if we did or didn't draft Bush i'd be OK with it, but I think any of you who just think Reggie Bush is just an ordinary running back like Cadillac Williams or Ronnie Brown is smoking crack and I question if you've really ever seen him play

Because there's never been a player who looked exceptional in college and didn't go on to be a Hall of Famer in the NFL.

and hopefully you will be in my fantasy football league next year so that you'll pass on Bush and I can draft him. :)

Two words: Jamal. Lewis.

:D

[jopatmc]

This draft has 2 extreme Studs that will make people do a ricky williams move. Those 2 positions(QB,RB) are not our biggest weaknest so we would be able to clean house and still fill our biggest need with a bookend takle.


Let's hope that happens. Wouldn't it be great to pick up multiple draft picks with the #1 pick including a top 5 pick and another first rounder, along with maybe a 3rd rounder?

We could conceivably fix our entire offensive line with this draft and the offseason.

[reggietodd]

Two words: Jamal. Lewis.

:D

:mad: :mad: :mad:

LOL.

[Jared Novak]

I've stated many times in other threads like this one that I would like to see the Texans draft D'Brickashaw Ferguson. LT is our immediate need and he could potentially be the franchise bookend tackle tht the O-Line sorely lacks.

I'd also like the Texans to pick up Leonard Pope, TE out of Georgia (hoping he slips to the 2nd round). Lets face it Bennie Joppru will never take the field as a Texan, and if the coaching staff gets replaced he will most likely be one of the first let go.

[Luckyazn]

link (http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/)

12 D'Brickashaw Ferguson (OT) Vir.
- Injuries are hurting his stock.



Is he injure prone?

[kevwun]

Reggie Bush has 140 carries.
Lendale White has 156 carries.
I draw two conclusions from Pete Carrol giving Lendale "not in the same stratosphere as Reggie Bush" White more carries than Reggie Bush.

1. He is worried that Reggie Bush can't take the pounding.
2. Lendale White is a better inside runner than Reggie Bush.

This is not an auburn situation because Williams and Brown were on the same talent level. Reggie Bush is supposed to be a once in a generation talent. Why doesn't he have the most carries on his own team? If Carrol is just keeping him rested, you would still want Bush to have significantly more carries than White if he's that much better.

In the NFL, number 1 means Reggie Bush is going to be a glorified Brian Westbrook. Number 2 means you probably take him out in short yardage situations, but he's still a really good back.

If either of my conclusions are true, Reggie Bush isn't worth the 1st pick in the draft because a back of the same caliber can be found lower in the 1st round. Regardless, a running back needs a good offensive line. That should be priority number one.

[gunn]

Reggie Bush has 140 carries.
Lendale White has 156 carries.
I draw two conclusions from Pete Carrol giving Lendale "not in the same stratosphere as Reggie Bush" White more carries than Reggie Bush.

1. He is worried that Reggie Bush can't take the pounding.
2. Lendale White is a better inside runner than Reggie Bush.

....or 3. They blow out half the teams they play and there is no need to play Reggie Bush when you have another good running back that needs carries.

[kevwun]

Lendale White isn't getting garbage time carries.

[gucci888]

Trade down and pick up extra 2nd or 3rd this year and an extra 1st for next year.
Pick the Brick
roll your dice for one more year on Carr. If he dos not pan out then you have 2 #1's next year that would allow you to move up and take VICK, YOUNG or Quinn

Yep. This allows you to get the most value from your #1 pick. Teams like the Dolphin, Browns, Cardinals, and possibly the Jets will be salavating at the chance of getting Leinart.

I don't think anyone can doubt our OL is the biggest hole, now you have the opportunity to pick up a franchise type tackle, and you don't take it?

No one is saying Reggie isn't a talented player, and no doubt he'll be a good back for a team that NEEDS a RB. But like Rocketman95 put it, it's not like he's the best RB to ever come out. There have been PLENTY of RBs that are suppose to be the next great one. Big time tackles don't come out very often.

[TigerBait]

link (http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/)

12 D'Brickashaw Ferguson (OT) Vir.
- Injuries are hurting his stock.



Is he injure prone?

Some have criticized him because he all of a sudden comes up with these seemingly bogus injuries whenever going up against a top tier DE, such as the guy from BC. However in the games that he has played this year, he has completely dominated.

[reggietodd]

Reggie Bush has 140 carries.
Lendale White has 156 carries.
I draw two conclusions from Pete Carrol giving Lendale "not in the same stratosphere as Reggie Bush" White more carries than Reggie Bush.

1. He is worried that Reggie Bush can't take the pounding.
2. Lendale White is a better inside runner than Reggie Bush.

This is not an auburn situation because Williams and Brown were on the same talent level. Reggie Bush is supposed to be a once in a generation talent. Why doesn't he have the most carries on his own team? If Carrol is just keeping him rested, you would still want Bush to have significantly more carries than White if he's that much better.

In the NFL, number 1 means Reggie Bush is going to be a glorified Brian Westbrook. Number 2 means you probably take him out in short yardage situations, but he's still a really good back.

If either of my conclusions are true, Reggie Bush isn't worth the 1st pick in the draft because a back of the same caliber can be found lower in the 1st round. Regardless, a running back needs a good offensive line. That should be priority number one.

ummm White has more carries than Bush because USC blows most teams out and there is no need to keep feeding the ball the your best player when you are up by 5 touchdowns.

Why would he be like Brian Westbrook? Warrick Dunn is smaller than any of them and is a successful running back so I wouldn't go with the size argument either.

[Groogrux]

ummm White has more carries than Bush because USC blows most teams out and there is no need to keep feeding the ball the your best player when you are up by 5 touchdowns.

Why would he be like Brian Westbrook? Warrick Dunn is smaller than any of them and is a successful running back so I wouldn't go with the size argument either.

Does White get the majority of his carries in garbage time? Would you select Warrick Dunn with the first pick if he was just now coming out?

[Major]

ummm White has more carries than Bush because USC blows most teams out and there is no need to keep feeding the ball the your best player when you are up by 5 touchdowns.


Except that he gets those carries in crunch-time too. There have been two games were USC was fighting for their lives the whole game (ASU, ND). In those games, White had 29 carries, Bush had 32. You'd think in games where your season is on the line, you'd go to this once-in-a-lifetime back a whole lot more than your other pretty-good back.

[gunn]

Except that he gets those carries in crunch-time too. There have been two games were USC was fighting for their lives the whole game (ASU, ND). In those games, White had 29 carries, Bush had 32. You'd think in games where your season is on the line, you'd go to this once-in-a-lifetime back a whole lot more than your other pretty-good back.

Except you neglected to mention that White had 10 carries for 26 yards against ND while Bush had 15 carries for 160 yards and 3 scores in the same game. And against Arizona St. both had roughly the same carries (LenDale with two more) and both went over 150 yards with 2 scores each. Not to mention that White is a non-factor as a reciever. Stop trying to put LenDale in Bush's class. He's not.

[kevwun]

Reggie Bush can be a better prospect than Lendale White and still be overrated. If he was as good of a running back as he's made out to be, Lendale White would not be getting so many of his carries. Reggie Bush is an exciting player. He's very good at catching the ball and returning punts and kickoffs. He's really, really fast. I'm not convinced he's going to be an 25+ carry guy in the NFL. He's not playing at a Barry Sanders or Ladanian Tomlinson level. He's not worth the 1st pick.

[gunn]

He's not worth the 1st pick.

Okay, thanks. If kevwun says it, it must be true. You must know something different than the NFL scouts that would beg to differ or the NFL teams that will line up to take him. You spoke of drawing conclusions earlier but the only conclusion that I'm drawing right now is that you have seen very little, to absolutly no USC football. All of the points you have tried to make have been short-sighted.

[JamesC]

I'd also like the Texans to pick up Leonard Pope, TE out of Georgia (hoping he slips to the 2nd round). Lets face it Bennie Joppru will never take the field as a Texan, and if the coaching staff gets replaced he will most likely be one of the first let go.


That guy is a beast. He looks to be in the Antonio Gates/ Tony Gonzalez mold.

[kevwun]

Okay, thanks. If kevwun says it, it must be true. You must know something different than the NFL scouts that would beg to differ or the NFL teams that will line up to take him. You spoke of drawing conclusions earlier but the only conclusion that I'm drawing right now is that you have seen very little, to absolutly no USC football. All of the points you have tried to make have been short-sighted.


I thought internet message boards were for discussions and opinions, guess I was wrong again. :D

Running backs are rarely taken 1st overall and I don't think Reggie Bush is one of the rare ones (I'm sorry about giving my opinion again). He's still going to be taken high. He's not going to have a chance to prove me wrong if the Texans draft him first and he routinely gets engulfed by 2 or 3 defensive lineman as soon as he takes the handoff because the oline still sucks. When a team has a good offensive line, productive running backs can be found in the 1st three rounds alot easier than an all pro left tackle can be. Charlie Casserly has even managed to find one.

[MadMax]

Okay, thanks. If kevwun says it, it must be true. You must know something different than the NFL scouts that would beg to differ or the NFL teams that will line up to take him. You spoke of drawing conclusions earlier but the only conclusion that I'm drawing right now is that you have seen very little, to absolutly no USC football. All of the points you have tried to make have been short-sighted.

this is a little harsh, don't you think? it's a sports opinion. he didn't kick your dog or anything.

[gunn]

this is a little harsh, don't you think? it's a sports opinion. he didn't kick your dog or anything.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's one thing when you have an opinion and you state it as such; it's another when you distort your opinion and pass it off as if it's fact. Not only that, you create narrow sighted scenarios that hardly encompass the whole situation, and pass those off as the be all, end all of scenarios.

[kevwun]

Is it really necessary to put "in my opinion" behind every one of my sentences? I think everyone on this thread except you understood that.

[Groogrux]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's one thing when you have an opinion and you state it as such; it's another when you distort your opinion and pass it off as if it's fact.

Like the "fact" that Reggie Bush is a sure-fire gamebreaker in the NFL?

[Major]

Except you neglected to mention that White had 10 carries for 26 yards against ND while Bush had 15 carries for 160 yards and 3 scores in the same game. And against Arizona St. both had roughly the same carries (LenDale with two more) and both went over 150 yards with 2 scores each. Not to mention that White is a non-factor as a reciever. Stop trying to put LenDale in Bush's class. He's not.

That wasn't the point. The point is that if Reggie Bush is able to handle duties as a full-time running back, is a once-in-a-lifetime back, and as you mentioned, he was far more effective than White in the ND game, why are they splitting carries in a game when they were fighting for their lives? Why isn't Bush getting all the carries?

There's no doubt he's substantially better than White. My question is if he's capable of being a full-time back. When they needed their best player to get all the carries, he didn't. The question is why?

[msn]

Like the "fact" that Reggie Bush is a sure-fire gamebreaker in the NFL?
That's the thing about opinions; everyone else has them, but I know the facts. :D

[msn]

Stop trying to put LenDale in Bush's class. He's not.
Is that your opinion, or is that a fact? Because, you're passing it off as fact, and instucting other people as to what opinion they should have. It must be awesome to make up the rules on the fly. :p (I'm just having fun at the expense of your posts, not trying to start anything.)

[gunn]

Like the "fact" that Reggie Bush is a sure-fire gamebreaker in the NFL?

Who said anything about "sure-fire"? I said that Reggie Bush is a gamebreaker, and "this just in".... he is.

[gunn]

The question is why?

I'm not the head coach, so I can't give you the definitive answer you're seaching for. But if you want my opinion, I'll say that if you have a program with two good backs with contrasting styles, why would you not utilize them both?

[Major]

I'm not the head coach, so I can't give you the definitive answer you're seaching for. But if you want my opinion, I'll say that if you have a program with two good backs with contrasting styles, why would you not utilize them both?

You've got a "once in a lifetime" back and a "pretty good" back, and your season is on the line. And you're giving the ball to the "pretty good" guy?

Something is wrong there. Either Bush can't handle all the carries, he's good partially because of that change-of-pace, or something else. Whatever it is, it's a question in my mind about Bush's role on an NFL team.

[gunn]

Is that your opinion, or is that a fact? Because, you're passing it off as fact, and instucting other people as to what opinion they should have. It must be awesome to make up the rules on the fly. :p (I'm just having fun at the expense of your posts, not trying to start anything.)

That's fact. As I have stated before, I'm not putting Reggie Bush on another level because I think the Texans should draft him. I think the Texans should draft him because the NFL scouts are the ones saying that he's on another level and is without a doubt the "best player of any age, or position, in the country".

[Luckyazn]

The Chiefs drafted Larry Johnson when they had Priest Holmes


Cant we draft Bush and use a Bush/DD combo.

[gunn]

You've got a "once in a lifetime" back and a "pretty good" back, and your season is on the line. And you're giving the ball to the "pretty good" guy?

I didn't see LenDale White pushing Matt Leinart into the endzone to beat ND, which according to the players of USC was the "toughest and best game they had been a part of".

[Major]

I didn't see LenDale White pushing Matt Leinart into the endzone to beat ND, which according to the players of USC was the "toughest and best game they had been a part of".

I also didn't see Leinart hand the ball off to Reggie Bush when they needed to get that 1 yard. Neither of those is relevant. I'm talking about a whole game, not one play.

[Major]

The Chiefs drafted Larry Johnson when they had Priest Holmes


Cant we draft Bush and use a Bush/DD combo.

The Chiefs were already damn good and had the luxury of planning for the future. Using the #1 overall pick to fill half of your running back position would be possibly the biggest waste of a pick in NFL history.

[pariah]

I like Brick, really I do. That's the way I'd lean, I suppose though that:

I'd listen intently to moves that would land me Winston and Howard or Ahmad Brooks and McNeill. Both sides of the ball need help and I'd like to leverage the deep offensive tackle pool and grab a line backer to add some extra defensive team speed ( I like Brooks and Howard to do that).

We need guys that can wreak havoc on the qb's, or those that can draw the offensive focus so others can wreak havoc --- and no, I'm not talking about our very own current offensive line (and what it does to Carr each week).

[gunn]

I also didn't see Leinart hand the ball off to Reggie Bush when they needed to get that 1 yard. Neither of those is relevant. I'm talking about a whole game, not one play.

Nor did they give it to LenDale, who many of you claim to be the tougher, between the tackles type of back. The bottom line was that was Leinart's call, and he took it into his own hands. What can you say, Leinart's a star in his own right as well. And speaking of the whole game LenDale came up small; 10 carries for 26 yards is nothing to write home to mom about. Bush on the other hand went off for 160 and 3 TD's on 15 carries.

[Major]

Nor did they give it to LenDale, who many of you claim to be the tougher, between the tackles type of back. The bottom line was that was Leinart's call, and he took it into his own hands. What can you say, Leinart's a star in his own right as well. And speaking of the whole game LenDale came up small; 10 carries for 26 yards is nothing to write home to mom about. Bush on the other hand went off for 160 and 3 TD's on 15 carries.

You still are completely missing the point, here. No one is arguing that White is a better back. The yardage stats are irrevelent - the question is the # of carries.

[gunn]

You still are completely missing the point, here. No one is arguing that White is a better back. The yardage stats are irrevelent - the question is the # of carries.

Again, I don't have the definitive answer you are looking for. Why don't you write to Pete Caroll and ask him. Maybe he is utilizing all of his talent. Maybe he likes two fresh backs. Maybe he is living up to obligations he made to these kids when they signed a LOI. Maybe everyone is wrong and Reggie Bush just isn't that good. The latter is highly doubtful as NFL scouts think otherwise. I understand your point, but asking me will not get you the answer.

[Ric]

He's not going to have a chance to prove me wrong if the Texans draft him first and he routinely gets engulfed by 2 or 3 defensive lineman as soon as he takes the handoff because the oline still sucks. When a team has a good offensive line, productive running backs can be found in the 1st three rounds alot easier than an all pro left tackle can be. Charlie Casserly has even managed to find one.
does DD routinely get engulfed by 2 or 3 linemen as soon as he takes the handoff? i see a back succeeding to some degree in spite of the fact he’s slow to the hole, often chooses the wrong running lane and has zero breakaway speed. in fact, that the 4th round pick they thought was going to be nothing more than a return specialist has posted back-to-back 1,000 yard seasons is a testament to the line being pretty decent in run blocking.

so explain to me how putting a better running back in DD's spot wouldn’t represent not just an upgrade, but a superior one.

again, I have NO IDEA if bush is the best player in the draft. but if you’re the worst team in football, and the texans clearly are, you’ve earned the right to draft the best player. why settle for the 3rd or 4th or 5th best player just to add the… 45th best player? why take a chance that the player you want will even be there if you were to trade down. that’s the other thing that frustrates me in these discussions – how people deal in such absolutes with such an inexact science. for all this speculation and hole-punching everyone’s doing with bush, what if you jump from 1 to 4 hoping to get the brick, and someone who wants him more moves to 3? you’ve passed on the best player AND lost the guy you wanted – double whammy. but by all means, let’s assume that couldn’t happen and instead focus on whether bush can handle the load on a full-time basis as if that’s a less volatile, more clear-cut subject.

i advocate only that the texans take the best player period, minus leinart because – and only because – of cap constraints. i don’t want them to mess around and screw this up – they can’t afford to. nor do i want them to pretend their roster couldn’t use an upgrade at every single position, because it most certainly could.

[Ric]

The yardage stats are irrevelent - the question is the # of carries.
it's nitpicking gobbledegook. again, bush is on pace to tally more carries than ronnie brown did last year and brown was a top 5 pick. and those numbers don't include catches or returns. bush is averaging 20 touches and 185 yards of total offense per game.

white may be taking carries, but notice how he's not taking heisman votes from bush. the best back on that team is pretty clear cut.

[Moe]

I don't have an opinion on how good Bush is. I haven't really watched him. Is he really that sure of a thing? If you can put him in the Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders category, then that truly is a special back.

My biggest problem with the Texans taking him at 1 or 2 is the position he plays. RB's have the shortest careers of anyone. It has nothing to do with how good they are, they take the biggest and the most hits and they break down. Look at all the best backs, now. Of the backs that have 5 seasons under their belt, most (not all) have had a couple of unproductive years, mainly due to injuries.

If they wind up with the 1st or 2nd pick, I think taking a running back is a luxury the Texans can't afford. Unless you're sure you will get 8 or 9 great seasons out of the guy. Given the odds, how could you be sure? Offensive linemen, on the other hand average much longer, productive careers.

IF the Texans are a top team, then they could afford to take a chance on a running back, but they are not. The Bears were bad with Sayers and the Lions were bad with Sanders. The Oilers were good with Earl, but they had talent at just about every position.

[kevwun]

I admit that was an exaggeration. Davis would put up really good numbers if he was behind a good line. If David Carr had time to throw, we'd know if he has what it takes to succeed in the NFL. This team isn't going to be really good until they have at least a solid offensive line. It has to be fixed eventually. If the Texans are worried about Ferguson dropping, take him no 1. Just do something about the line already.

[Groogrux]

Davis would put up really good numbers if he was behind a good line.

Some would argue that he already has put up really good numbers.

[Ric]

Davis would put up really good numbers if he was behind a good line. If the Texans are worried about Ferguson dropping, take him no 1. Just do something about the line already.
davis does put up good numbers. bush - in theory - would put up better numbers. next time davis busts into the open field, watch him get run down. now imagine a back that doesn;t get caught...

and your line of thinking, re: the OL and the appraoch to the draft is what scares me. you can't - CANNOT - take your attitude into the draft, not in the cap era. you can't pay the fifth best player in the draft first overall money. it is NOT economically viable. if you stay #1, you have to pick the best player. i would only advocate trading down if you had 2 or 3 guys you were comfortable with and stayed within range to grab at least one of them.

otherwise, you're taking another risk. this team can't take risks.

[Major]

it's nitpicking gobbledegook. again, bush is on pace to tally more carries than ronnie brown did last year and brown was a top 5 pick. and those numbers don't include catches or returns. bush is averaging 20 touches and 185 yards of total offense per game.


And Ronnie Brown is now sharing carries with Ricky Williams. Meanwhile, his counterpart, is hurt after shouldering a much bigger load than he was used to.


white may be taking carries, but notice how he's not taking heisman votes from bush. the best back on that team is pretty clear cut.

What part of "no one is saying White is a better back than Bush" did you not understand? Or what part of "once in a lifetime back" vs. "pretty good" back confused you into thinking I was saying White is as good as Bush?

White's taking carries in critical games when the season is on the line. If you have Ricky Williams (in the prime of his career) and Dominic Davis and you need to win a game, are you giving Davis lots of carries? There's a reason White is getting the carries - and that should be a question you'd want answered if you're thinking of taking Reggie Bush for your team.

[thacabbage]

I haven't dug through this thread yet, but I don't need to. I don't see how this is even a question. There is no logical reasoning behind using that pick to do anything else BUT trade down to shore up the line. 4 years later, with the same problems since our inceptions, I hope management has figured that out. Bush or Leinart are the sexy picks but O-line is the smart pick.

Carr+Davis+decent O.line COULD succeed.

Leinart/Carr+Bush/Davis+NO O Line ==> exact same situation as now.

[Nick]

Bush/White reminds me a lot of Palmer/Leinert... except that you can play both Bush and White in the same game.

USC has a great system in place that develops great players. But, these players are NOT the "once in a lifetime" type players that a lot of you think they may be.

[gucci888]

I didn't see LenDale White pushing Matt Leinart into the endzone to beat ND, which according to the players of USC was the "toughest and best game they had been a part of".

Which was an illegal play BTW, but refs never call it. I'm glad USC players thing that was the toughest and best game they've ever been a part of, but what does that have to do with the draft?

That's fact. As I have stated before, I'm not putting Reggie Bush on another level because I think the Texans should draft him. I think the Texans should draft him because the NFL scouts are the ones saying that he's on another level and is without a doubt the "best player of any age, or position, in the country".

It's the same scouts that were saying Tim Couch was a sure thing.

Gunn- I'm not saying Bush wouldn't be worth the #1 pick if we were in need of a RB. Our biggest need is a OL and there is a player out there that is supposedly a "franchise" type player. Linemen never get the glory skill players do, but that doesn't mean they aren't as "talented" or as "good."

Do you think Bush or any RB in that matter can be successful with our OL? We have poor run blocking and even worse pass protection, I don't see how any RB or QB could have real success here w/o improving our OL first.

IF you ask any football coach (high school, NCAA, NFL), they'll tell you that the most important factor on the field is your offensive line, right now, we don't have crap there.

[Ric]

And Ronnie Brown is now sharing carries with Ricky Williams. Meanwhile, his counterpart, is hurt after shouldering a much bigger load than he was used to.
i don't see the relevance. is your contention that brown is sharing carries with williams because he's not capable of shouldering the load himself? if so, it's a faulty, but oh-so-convenient conclusion. i mean, was cedric benson splitting carries with thomas jones because he wasn't able to shoulder the load on his own? can we draw the same conclusion about priest holmes and larry johnson? mike anderson and tatum bell in denver? willis mcgahee and travis henry last year in buffalo?

as for williams, you're again drawing a pretty favorable, but highly debateable conclusion. only small-ish backs who can't tote the load every down get hurt in the NFL? is that why DD is currently on the sidelines?

bush gets 20 touches a game, including punt returns, far and away the most dangerous and vulenerable thing you can do on a football field. before he got hurt, DD was averaging 23 tocuhes a game. so we're really concerned bush, if he dropped return duty, would struggle with the heavier workload?

What part of "no one is saying White is a better back than Bush" did you not understand?
was this a rhetorical question, because.....

White's taking carries in critical games when the season is on the line. There's a reason White is getting the carries - and that should be a question you'd want answered if you're thinking of taking Reggie Bush for your team.
you're clearly insuinating that white is better than bush by asking this question, no? or are you just playing devil's advocate? if it had any basis in fact, it's a question worth asking, but it doesn't.

i'm not sure which "critical" game you're referring to, or when this year USC's season has "been on the line", considering their margins of victory have been 46, 53, 32, 10, 21, 3, 27, 42, 30, 25. maybe you meant the only games they won by less than three touchdowns...? let's see....

in those games (ND, 3, and ASU, 10), the stat lines read like this:
bush: 48 touches; 458 total yards; 5 TDs
white: 29 tocuhes; 223 yards; 3 TDs

when and where in "critical" games with the "seaon on the line" is white "getting the carries" over bush? even if you want to tilt the discussion in your favor by disallowing receptions and returns, bush still has more carries (32 to 29), more yards (318 to 223) and more TDs (5 to 3) in "critical" games where the "season was on the line."

[Ric]

It's the same scouts that were saying Tim Couch was a sure thing.
and tony mandarich - what's your point?

We have poor run blocking
then how has a guy the team thought would be nothing more than a return specialist compiled back-to-back 1,000 yard seasons?

please, please, PLEASE (!!!) stop confusing pass protection and run blocking - two entirely different animals. run blocking requires you to hold a block and create a path for, well, it's dependent on how quick your back is, but miliseconds. pass protection requires you to hold it much longer and have a competent QB and WRs that can run proper routes and create separation, not to mention proper scheme, placement, coaching. the texans have none of that right now. hell, even jonathan wells runs decently behind this line. they run block well.

the awful pass protection is a component of the rest of the team being just as bad. carr is spooked; the WRs suck; there's no TE; the RB is awful at picking up the blitz. one guy doesn't solve all that ails, so why reach for him?

USC has a great system in place that develops great players. But, these players are NOT the "once in a lifetime" type players that a lot of you think they may be.
so the system created bush's speed, agility, instincts, vision, quickness and toughness? is that why palmer has been such an abject failure outside the system?

[gucci888]

and tony mandarich - what's your point?


Read the quote in my post, if you still don't get it, then I'll gladly explain it to you.

[Ric]

Read the quote in my post, if you still don't get it, then I'll gladly explain it to you.
let's not pretend the draft is an exact science - it's not. so scouts missing on couch, leaf, mandarich and a dozen other prospects doesn't negate their opinions.

bush may be added to the list. but, no matter they're track record, they're infinitely more knowledgeable and experienced about this kind of thing than you, me, major or gunn are, giving their evaluations far more relevance than anything we post, no?

[Jared Novak]

The Texans are in a unique situaion at the end of the season if everything holds true and they receive the first pick in the draft. We know that there are about four or five teams that want Leinart. There will be teams that will want Reggie Bush if he declares (which is highly likely, IMO). The Texans could target a couple of players, D'Brickshaw Ferguson (OT), Jonathan Scott (OT), Leonard Pope (TE), Marcedes Lewis (TE), Ahmad Brooks (LB), AJ Hawk (LB), Eric Winston (OT), Max Jean-Gilles (OL), Rodrique Wright (DT), etc. Now tell me that having at least two of those names above wouldn't make the Texans better.

If the Texans are able to trade down to lets say the fifth pick and pick up an extra second and third this year and an extra first next year. Thats quite a few picks with which to help shape up this team. If the Texans take Ferguson with the fifth pick you have the guy you targeted and you still have the 33rd pick overall to take a talented player that will fall into the second. Plus, now you have another second (hopefully still very high in the second round) with which to take yet another player that was probably rated as a first rounder but fell. So the Texans could have potentially three first round rated players (two of which you know for sure were rated as such). I'd rather have that than one player in Bush who has the potential to be a game-breaker.

This team is in dire straits and should not pick a position that is already giving production. Taking Reggie Bush would not make the Texans any better IMO because the O-Line is the back bone of the offense. With a better O-Line you have more time to throw the ball and you have holes that may stay open a little longer allowing DD or JW to burst through gaining maybe an extra couple of yards. I'm not against taking Bush because I don't like him, I think he is a great college player and an intriguing prospect. Its that the Texans have way too many needs to key in on one player, and taking an OL shores up your biggest need, helps the passing game and helps the running game.

DD may not be a long-term back, but you can find RB's a dime a dozen. If you have a good line, even an average RB can gain plenty of yards. Even splitting time with JW could give DD a little more rest and help him last a little longer during the season.

If I'm the GM of the Texans (hey I can wish :) ) I take OL for the reasons stated throughout this post, taking an OL is not a "sexy" pick because skill players are the ones that carry the ball and make dynamic plays. But you need the big guys in the trenches making it happen so those skill players can make those great plays. After OL, I'm looking to pick TE, LB, DB, WR with the next four picks (two second and two third round picks). After that I start looking for WR, OL, FS and SS in the fourth and after that I start taking BPA through round seven.

[kevwun]

I think Nick's point was that when you bring a large group of really good players together, they tend to look even better than they are. Bush and White are good backs, but look even better when they have mammoth holes to run through. Leinart is a super accurate quarterback and having all day to throw to All-American receivers and running backs makes him look that much better. When so many good players are together it's very easy to start over valuing their perceived impact in the NFL. This is what I think is happening with Bush. If he really is in line with amazing talents like Sanders, Sayers, Tomlinson, J. Brown, etc, I have to question why White is getting so many carries. Thurman Thomas kept Barry Sanders on the bench when they were at OSU together. That's right, Barry Sanders rode the pine. That's because Thomas was so good, Sanders never got to show what he could do. Everyone expected there to be a huge dropoff when Thomas went to the NFL, instead Sanders had probably the greatest college season ever, regardless of position. Guys like that would relegate Lendale White to mop up duty, regardless of how good he is.

Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams were very close in talent. They split time as a result. Neither of those guys were talked about like Reggie Bush. I don't think it's unrealistic to have some reservations about him.

[gucci888]

let's not pretend the draft is an exact science - it's not. so scouts missing on couch, leaf, mandarich and a dozen other prospects doesn't negate their opinions.

bush may be added to the list. but, no matter they're track record, they're infinitely more knowledgeable and experienced about this kind of thing than you, me, major or gunn are, giving their evaluations far more relevance than anything we post, no?

Absolutely. But if it's the same scouts saying D. Ferguson is a franchise type tackle worthy of a top 3 pick, and a good tackle is EXACTLY what we need, shouldn't we take one?

[VesceySux]

Carr+Davis+decent O.line COULD succeed.

Leinart/Carr+Bush/Davis+NO O Line ==> exact same situation as now.

Quoted again for emphasis. Nail, meet head.

[gunn]

Absolutely. But if it's the same scouts saying D. Ferguson is a franchise type tackle worthy of a top 3 pick, and a good tackle is EXACTLY what we need, shouldn't we take one?


It's not about a "top 3 pick". You don't lump them together. Why? Because a player like Reggie Bush is there. If you have the third pick and Bush is off the board, then fine take the tackle. But you don't pass on a player that scouts are saying is the "best player of any age or position in the country" for a lesser player for reasons based on need on a team with too many needs. I have never advocated ignoring the offensive line. I think this year's draft is exceptionally deep at the tackle position and the Texans could move back into the first round or stay put with the top pick in the second and select a quality tackle.

[gucci888]

It's not about a "top 3 pick". You don't lump them together. Why? Because a player like Reggie Bush is there. If you have the third pick and Bush is off the board, then fine take the tackle. But you don't pass on a player that scouts are saying is the "best player of any age or position in the country" for a lesser player for reasons based on need on a team with too many needs. I have never advocated ignoring the offensive line. I think this year's draft is exceptionally deep at the tackle position and the Texans could move back into the first round or stay put with the top pick in the second and select a quality tackle.

Don't we say that every year? We always think we can pick up quality offensive linemen with 2nd-3rd round picks and they've all ended up garbage for the most part. It's time to do some major revising to our OL.

What do you mean by lumping them together? You're going with the "sexy" pick, linemen don't get the glory skills players do, but like I said, that doesn't mean they are any less of a player. Just remember, Bush wouldn't be anything w/o his OL, but how often do you hear about OL in the media or with analysts? We NEED a tackle and there is one available that is WORTH the pick, it's very simple.

NO team will be successful without a OL, right now we have the worst OL in my opinion and I'm sure most of ya'll will agree. We have a chance to pick up a player that can anchor our OL for years to come.

And please don't act like there won't be another Reggie Bush to come out. He is a good running back, but by no means is he the best RB to come out in recent years. The same can't be said for Ferguson. He is the best tackle to come out of college in a pretty long time.

[Jared Novak]

It's not about a "top 3 pick". You don't lump them together. Why? Because a player like Reggie Bush is there. If you have the third pick and Bush is off the board, then fine take the tackle. But you don't pass on a player that scouts are saying is the "best player of any age or position in the country" for a lesser player for reasons based on need on a team with too many needs. I have never advocated ignoring the offensive line. I think this year's draft is exceptionally deep at the tackle position and the Texans could move back into the first round or stay put with the top pick in the second and select a quality tackle.

The draft is exceptionally deep at the tackle position, but tackles usually go fast too. Ferguson and Winston are what I consider the best tackle prospects. Then you have McNeil and Scott (IMO they are more suited for the RT rather than LT, I have watched all of the Longhorns games and two Auburn games, not much to go on McNeil). Then you have Colledge, Whitworth and Trueblood, all of which you could probably get in the second round. But why would you not take the best available tackle? It would be like me telling you that in 1999 you could go out and get either Tim Couch, Dante Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith or Cade McNown, its a deep QB draft so we could take X player at #1 and then trade back up and get one of these players since they are all rated very high. IMO, the Texans need to take the BPA of need, they do not need a RB, they need OL help and they are in position to address that with the best OL prospect.

I understand that Bush is a special player and has the potential to be a great NFL player. However, QB's WR's and RB's are usually the biggest busts when taken in the first round. We could go back and forth all day about what OL's were busts and which RB's were busts, the draft is not an exact science. I think its all about what your philosophy is when trying to make a team better. My personal opinion is that Casserly wanted to build a great line (the backbone of the offense) to protect his then-rookie-QB with Boselli and Young as the bookends. Neither panned out, but he continued to build the team with a soft backbone. IMO, you need to go back and solidify that area, the OL. McKinney and Pitts (Pitts is a guard, I don't care how well he looks at LT, he isn't one) should be your guards, hopefully with a much improved Wand and Ferguson as your bookends and Hodgdon as your center. Hell, if I'm the GM and Max Jean-Gilles is there in the second round and I have him rated hgiher than any LB, WR, or TE that is available I take him and stick him at guard, the guy is great at Georgia.

Let me tell you why I like Ferguson, last year he dominated almost every DE and LB coming his way. This year he has been injured but has performed well nonetheless. He has intangibles like great eye-hand coordination, great movement with his feet and great technique. Some may say that he is too light to be a LT at 295lbs.. Obviously when players get to the NFL, nutritionists and coaches put players on a strict regimen to get them to bulk up, which is why this particular "knock" on him does not concern me. After reading a couple of interviews of Ferguson he seems to be down to earth and takes pride in his job, he strives to be the best and wants to excel. Basically I like Ferguson for all the reasons you like Reggie Bush, its just that Ferguson doesn't get the attention or Sportscenter highlights like Reggie Bush does.

[Stack24]

For me I voted for trading down. If you were to take all the first round RB and Qb's taken in drafts and put them against all the late round steals im sure the late round players have the edge in overall quality lately.

You can easily get a good backup back or something late in the 3rd and 4th round. That is not what we need. We don't need Bush and honestly don't need Lienart. They really need to focus on the OL and they would be stupid if they didn't.

Just look at some of the teams with great OL's like Denver for instance. The team put in no name back after no name back when Davis left and they had 1000 yard rushers left and right. If you have a great OL you can do a lot in this league.

Carr is scared like hell when he is back there and totally mentally gone becuase he knows he doesn't have time. He doesn't have time to sit in the pocket and his recievers don't have time to get open. Leaving usually one option , the run, which every defense banks on and stops us.

If you remember the first year Carr wasn't scared to take hits and he sat back in the pocket for a long time waiting for something to develop and it didn't because of the OL and he just took the sack. After 3 years of this it has gotten to his head and you can notice that even when he does have time to throw he thinks he is going to get hit and takes off running or makes a quick desicion. It will definently take him some time to trust his OL if we get one and let him relax back there. The guy is not a bad quarterback and he can succeed if he has the personal around him.

Without the OL you are not going to get anything going...wheter it is the run or the pass, plain and simple. Build a tough OL by trading down getting a draft pick and maybe an established vetran OL from the team as well if you need it. Give Carr a couple years behind a good OL and if he doesn't produce then you can go ahead and move on. But as of right now it's pretty simple to see that our OL sucks and it would be stupid to pick Lienart or Bush when their value is so high and we can completly revamp the line with either vetran linemen or some great young talent.

[JamesC]

Like Jared Novak said, we need Leonard Pope if he's available in the 2nd round.
http://media.theinsiders.com/Media/Player/21158_Pope-508-600.JPG

He's a big athletic tight end that would be a MAJOR upgrade especially to anything we have now.

[gunn]

Don't we say that every year? We always think we can pick up quality offensive linemen with 2nd-3rd round picks and they've all ended up garbage for the most part. It's time to do some major revising to our OL.

This team has yet to experience a draft that is this deep at the tackle postion. I understand your concerns of the early-mid second to third round picks. But hopefully, and potentially, the lowest pick we would be talking about would be the top pick in the second round. Or taking that pick and moving back into the 1st to get a first round talent tackle if need be.

What do you mean by lumping them together? You're going with the "sexy" pick, linemen don't get the glory skills players do, but like I said, that doesn't mean they are any less of a player. Just remember, Bush wouldn't be anything w/o his OL, but how often do you hear about OL in the media or with analysts? We NEED a tackle and there is one available that is WORTH the pick, it's very simple.

By lumping D'Brickashaw into the "top 3" you are essentially saying he is worth the #1 overall pick. And in any given year I would agree with you, but this year he's not. Not with Reggie Bush out there, who scouts are saying is head and shoulders the best player in the country. You don't pass on said best player and reach for another when your team has so many needs. If we have the #2 or #3 pick then, by all means, take the tackle. But if you don't think this team could use Reggie Bush then you are turning a blind eye.

NO team will be successful without a OL, right now we have the worst OL in my opinion and I'm sure most of ya'll will agree. We have a chance to pick up a player that can anchor our OL for years to come.

They are the worst pass blocking OL right now, not run blocking. Two different animals.

And please don't act like there won't be another Reggie Bush to come out. He is a good running back, but by no means is he the best RB to come out in recent years. The same can't be said for Ferguson. He is the best tackle to come out of college in a pretty long time.

Again, and as Ric stated, I think NFL scouts have a more credible opinion than you or I. And they would disagree with your assessment of Reggie Bush not being the best back to come out in recent years.

[Groogrux]

I'm so happy we have five more months of discussing whether we should take Bush or move down.

[MadMax]

I'm so happy we have five more months of discussing whether we should take Bush or move down.

move Francis to the 2.

[Groogrux]

move Francis to the 2.

Plan B.

[Harrisment]

I'm so happy we have five more months of discussing whether we should take Bush or move down.

Not really, McNair wants to make a decision on this soon. He's checking this poll regularly and will go with whatever option is leading at midnight this Friday. ;)

[gucci888]

This team has yet to experience a draft that is this deep at the tackle postion. I understand your concerns of the early-mid second to third round picks. But hopefully, and potentially, the lowest pick we would be talking about would be the top pick in the second round. Or taking that pick and moving back into the 1st to get a first round talent tackle if need be.

You and I both know that every tackle worth taking will be gone in the 1st round. By the time we pick again, we will be dealing with the same talent we've been dealing with the last 3 drafts. We keep on relying on the late rounds to find offensive lineman and we end up with the same results.

By lumping D'Brickashaw into the "top 3" you are essentially saying he is worth the #1 overall pick. And in any given year I would agree with you, but this year he's not. Not with Reggie Bush out there, who scouts are saying is head and shoulders the best player in the country. You don't pass on said best player and reach for another when your team has so many needs. If we have the #2 or #3 pick then, by all means, take the tackle. But if you don't think this team could use Reggie Bush then you are turning a blind eye.

Why are you so set on the idea that Bush is a better player than Ferguson? He's definitely a better RB, but you CAN'T say he's a whole lot better than Ferguson because they aren't the same type of player. Offensive linemen can't go and score touchdowns, can't receive passes, but they do help the Reggie Bush's do so.

Analysts and scouts don't talk about linemen that much because that's not what we want to hear. We want to hear about Reggie Bush going for 100+ yards or Marcus Vick throwing for 300, we aren't interested in hearing about offensive linemen blocking. Once again, people want the "sexy" pick, but that doesn't mean it's the right pick.

And I never said once we should take Ferguson with the #1, unfortunately the poll doesn't have the option, but the best option for the Texans is to trade down to a top5 pick + a Future 1st or a 2nd Round pick, you pick up Ferguson with the top pick and do whatever you like with the latter.

Again, and as Ric stated, I think NFL scouts have a more credible opinion than you or I. And they would disagree with your assessment of Reggie Bush not being the best back to come out in recent years.

Maybe you'd like to point out where you found this information. Where are you reading all these scouting reports, are you sure they aren't just analysts? Because there is a difference, Bush and USC are on SC at least 3 times a week, why? Because people want to see them.

I'm not going to change your mind, and you won't change my mind. But this really reminds of the 2002 NBA draft and I'll leave it at that.

You had Jay Williams who was the BEST player in the country hands down, there was not question about it. But we didn't take him because 1. We already had a PG and 2. There was a player we NEEDED to fill our biggest hole and a player in that position (C) with those kind of skills don't come around very often.

[Ric]

Analysts and scouts don't talk about linemen that much because that's not what we want to hear.
when it comes to the draft, yes they do.

btw, i'm not in gunn's camp. i'm not arguing that bush is the best player in the country; only that if he's the best player in the country, the texans need to stay where they are, not get cute, not take chances (trade downs always carry an inherent risk) and get the best guy available. it's short-sighted and to assume this team needs to focus on the OL only and doing so can get you into a world of trouble. out of 540 minutes of football this year, the texans have held the lead for exactly 17:46. a LT doesn;t solve but maybe an nth of the problems. it is an AWFUL football team; it's needs help EVERYWHERE.

[Major]

it is an AWFUL football team; it's needs help EVERYWHERE.

But if that's true, why wouldn't you trade down so you can get additional picks to help fill all those holes?

[gucci888]

when it comes to the draft, yes they do.


Unfortunately, it isn't draft time, so we aren't hearing anything about Ferguson and Winston, only about Bush/Leinart/Young/Vick/etc...

[Baqui99]

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html

[pradaxpimp]

Pull the 2004 Charger move. Trade down a few spots, pick up some extra picks in this year's draft in addition to another first rounder next season. Then take D'Brickshaw.

agreed.

[Luckyazn]

agreed.


What bad teams this yr would has TWO first rd. picks? like Atlanta did that year? I wont only think is worth trading if that teams has a #3-5 picks and a early 20's pick.

[Jared Novak]

What bad teams this yr would has TWO first rd. picks? like Atlanta did that year? I wont only think is worth trading if that teams has a #3-5 picks and a early 20's pick.

If the Texans have the #1 pick and trade down, it should be for nothing less than a top five pick this year, a second and third rounder this year and a first next year, at least thats what I start with and see who makes the first offer.

There is a lot of talent in the upcoming draft on both sides of the ball. They could get Ferguson (LT) with a top five pick, grab Leonard Pope (TE) or Max Jean-Gilles (OL) with the first pick of the second round, if either one falls and maybe take Bobby Carpenter (LB) in the second with the pick acquired in the trade. With two third rounders you could pick up a WR, DB or S. Thats arguably a lot of talent coming into help this team that apparently is lacking in that department.

[DKAIII]

To me, it's obvious, you draft Bush, he's the best talent in the draft (assuming he declares). I am admittedly biased in that I went to 'SC (Fight On, Three-Pete) but even if he went to Notre Dame I'd be in favor of drafting him. O.K., well, not Notre Dame or UCLA, but anywhere else. He's the most versatile, game-altering talent I've seen in a long time. About the only player I can compare him to that I've seen was Deion Sanders when he was at Florida State, just someone so much more physically gifted than everyone else on the field it was just sort of silly. He has returned kick-offs, punts, lined up as a wide receiver, slot receiver, half back, and has thrown the ball for TD's (Bush-to-Leinart in the 2004 Rose Bowl was just weird). He can out-quick anyone on the field & does not shy away from contact, lowering his helmet & initiating contact. A potential six points everytime he touches the ball.

I agree that running back is not as desperate a need as the O-Line is, but I am a firm believer that a team can build a line through technique & scheme more effectively than any other unit on the field. It's a cliché, but you can't teach raw speed.

Atlanta has what is considered one of the stronger O-Lines in the league, they don't have any first round picks there. Denver has had one of the best for years, and their only former first rounder is their right tackle. San Diego, no first rounders. Pittsburgh has two, but they are both guards, not the coveted left tackle position. Dallas, 0. Almost all of them do have exceptional skill players &/or coaching, however.

There are, of course, exceptions, such as Seattle, Cincinnati and Indy, but once again, they have significantly above average skill players & coaching.

Minnesota, St. Louis, & Baltimore all have outstanding talent at the left tackle position that was drafted in high in the first round (and in the Vikings & Rams cases they have excellent skill players) but suffer from some of the most infuriatingly inconsistent coaching imaginable.

I honestly believe that the Texans can accumulate some excellent line prospects in the second, third, & fourth rounds. Especially in this draft which appears to be relatively deep in those spots, even more so if the Texans end up with the first pick in each of those rounds. Heck, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Eric Winston, Jonathan Scott, Marcus McNeill, Andrew Whitworth and Adam Stenanavich are all outstanding prospects. Then you throw in guys like Max Jean-Gilles or Winston Justice, some O-line talent is going to drop to the top of the second round.

[Luckyazn]

To me, it's obvious, you draft Bush, he's the best talent in the draft (assuming he declares). I am admittedly biased in that I went to 'SC (Fight On, Three-Pete) but even if he went to Notre Dame I'd be in favor of drafting him. O.K., well, not Notre Dame or UCLA, but anywhere else. He's the most versatile, game-altering talent I've seen in a long time. About the only player I can compare him to that I've seen was Deion Sanders when he was at Florida State, just someone so much more physically gifted than everyone else on the field it was just sort of silly. He has returned kick-offs, punts, lined up as a wide receiver, slot receiver, half back, and has thrown the ball for TD's (Bush-to-Leinart in the 2004 Rose Bowl was just weird). He can out-quick anyone on the field & does not shy away from contact, lowering his helmet & initiating contact. A potential six points everytime he touches the ball.

I agree that running back is not as desperate a need as the O-Line is, but I am a firm believer that a team can build a line through technique & scheme more effectively than any other unit on the field. It's a cliché, but you can't teach raw speed.

Atlanta has what is considered one of the stronger O-Lines in the league, they don't have any first round picks there. Denver has had one of the best for years, and their only former first rounder is their right tackle. San Diego, no first rounders. Pittsburgh has two, but they are both guards, not the coveted left tackle position. Dallas, 0. Almost all of them do have exceptional skill players &/or coaching, however.

There are, of course, exceptions, such as Seattle, Cincinnati and Indy, but once again, they have significantly above average skill players & coaching.

Minnesota, St. Louis, & Baltimore all have outstanding talent at the left tackle position that was drafted in high in the first round (and in the Vikings & Rams cases they have excellent skill players) but suffer from some of the most infuriatingly inconsistent coaching imaginable.

I honestly believe that the Texans can accumulate some excellent line prospects in the second, third, & fourth rounds. Especially in this draft which appears to be relatively deep in those spots, even more so if the Texans end up with the first pick in each of those rounds. Heck, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Eric Winston, Jonathan Scott, Marcus McNeill, Andrew Whitworth and Adam Stenanavich are all outstanding prospects. Then you throw in guys like Max Jean-Gilles or Winston Justice, some O-line talent is going to drop to the top of the second round.


Dido. Draft Bush and go get OL fixing else where (later rd. picks , free agency)
Alot of the teams with good OL dont have top 10 drafted OL

[Jared Novak]

I agree that running back is not as desperate a need as the O-Line is, but I am a firm believer that a team can build a line through technique & scheme more effectively than any other unit on the field. It's a cliché, but you can't teach raw speed.

I honestly believe that the Texans can accumulate some excellent line prospects in the second, third, & fourth rounds. Especially in this draft which appears to be relatively deep in those spots, even more so if the Texans end up with the first pick in each of those rounds. Heck, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Eric Winston, Jonathan Scott, Marcus McNeill, Andrew Whitworth and Adam Stenanavich are all outstanding prospects. Then you throw in guys like Max Jean-Gilles or Winston Justice, some O-line talent is going to drop to the top of the second round.

If it was as simple as scheme the line would provide better pass protection. In fact the scheme was changed to zone-blocking which hasn't done jack to providing better protection. IMO, its not a matter of scheme and technique as it is a lack of talent. There is a plethora of OL prospects in the upcoming draft and the Texans should take the best prospect available as it is their need. For the past few offseasons the Texans have not drafted for this particular need and should make sure that they not only address it but make it their top priority.

The Texans should trade the pick and drop down a few spots and should still be able to pick up Ferguson. With the trade they can pick up extra picks in the second and third rounds where there will be alot of talent and try to pick up players that can shore up this team like Bobby Carpenter, Leonard Pope, Greg Lee, Thomas Howard, Justin London, Cedric Griffin, Greg Blue, Martin Nance, all of the preceding names are LB's, WR's, TE's and safeties that could help shore up the rest of the team. Reggie Bush isn't going to fare as well here as he does at USC behind a brick wall of an OL, with an All-American QB and NFL potential-talent on the rest of that team.

The OL is the "backbone" of the offense, the Texans have been lacking in that department for a few years now, solidify it and things will start to click on offense. With extra picks you can shore up the rest of the team. I just do not believe that getting one dynamic player can change this team, it will take drafting several good players to make it better. With the #1 pick you can maximize your potential for getting more talent on this team and making it better.

[Groogrux]

Dido.

Don't bring her into this.

[T-Dogg]

Obviously the Texans suffer from a luck of Talent (OL and DL) and the skill positions. Every talk show I saw, we have some much talent at receiver, Andre and who? What I would do is, if they get the number 1 pick, trade down preferrably with the Cardinals who have talent at receiver and a NEED for a quarterback. Hopefully you can get a San Diego deal. Taking their top five pick and drafting the best offensive lineman possible. Next hopefully you can recoup some of the picks you lost with the Jason Babin and Philip Buchanon deals. Hopefully the new coach and gm have an eye for talent and more imagination with their offensive and defensive schemes.

[DKAIII]

If it was as simple as scheme the line would provide better pass protection. In fact the scheme was changed to zone-blocking which hasn't done jack to providing better protection. IMO, its not a matter of scheme and technique as it is a lack of talent. There is a plethora of OL prospects in the upcoming draft and the Texans should take the best prospect available as it is their need. For the past few offseasons the Texans have not drafted for this particular need and should make sure that they not only address it but make it their top priority.

Just because something is simple, it does not mean that it is easy. The zone-blocking scheme has been demonstrated by other teams to be an effective strategy for run blocking. It has also been shown to be adequate, at times, for Dom Davis (a good back who does some nice things, IMO) in the past.

I agree that the line talent for the Texans is lacking, don't get me wrong. An upgrade in talent in that area would certainly benefit the team and should be one of the priorities in the offseason. My point is that a team does not have to spend first round draft picks on those positions. With good coaching, lower round guys can do not only an adequate, but an excellent job. My feeling has always been that with your first two picks, you should try to acquire high impact type of players. QB's, RB's, WR's, CB's, OLB's, etc.

The problem that the Texans have had with their drafting of offensive line, is that they have been drafting projects instead of prospects. Chester Pitts seems to be a good guy & is a good story, but I can't see why you would take a guy who did not even start to play football until he got to college in the second round. Seth Wand in the third for pete's sake? These are guys that should not even be thought about being selected until the fifth or sixth round. If you are going to be drafting o-line men in the second and third, I'd be much more happy to take seniors from the big confrences who have consistently played against upper-echelon d-lines.

[swilkins]

By lumping D'Brickashaw into the "top 3" you are essentially saying he is worth the #1 overall pick. And in any given year I would agree with you, but this year he's not. Not with Reggie Bush out there, who scouts are saying is head and shoulders the best player in the country. You don't pass on said best player and reach for another when your team has so many needs. If we have the #2 or #3 pick then, by all means, take the tackle. But if you don't think this team could use Reggie Bush then you are turning a blind eye.

If you think we're going to be high enough to pick Bush, you're nuts.

That damn Capers will win enough games so we won't get a top 3. No Bush, No Brick. Basically, there are other decent tackles, so I'm not too worried about it.

Just wait and see.

[noscrusir]

How can you pass on Reggie Bush?!?

That's like passing on Tim Duncan and taking Keith Van Horn because you already have a center.

[Groogrux]

How can you pass on Reggie Bush?!?

That's like passing on Tim Duncan and taking Keith Van Horn because you already have a center.

Wow, what a spot-on analogy! Absolutely nothing wrong at all with it!

[Ric]

But if that's true, why wouldn't you trade down so you can get additional picks to help fill all those holes?
my goal with this draft is to not blow it. i think everyone can agree that whatever player they take, that player has to make this a better team. fair? i think we can also agree that there’s inherent risk with any player we draft. it’s the nature of the beast. bush, the brick… everyone’s a potential bust and predicting which ones will is beyond us, the team and every one else.

from there, we splinter into our own evaluations of where the team is, what the team needs, etc. my take is that this is the worst team in football with two genuine playmakers on its roster. beyond that, quite sincerely, flotsam. maybe carr’s a keeper… i do like DD, but recognize he's not a gamebreaker… pitts has potential; gaffney has been adequate; armstrong and mathis are intriguing; i might be inclined to keep babin and maybe greenwood based on age; same, possibly for pbuch and the two safeties. otherwise…

that’s where my head is. i do NOT prescribe to the line being our biggest problem; i think we have several equally large problems (no pass rush, poor tackling, dumb players, poor route running, coaching, player evaluation….) with a roster that barren and a team this awful, i want them to take the best player available. so if there’s one player clearly better than all other players, that's my guy. it cuts down on the likelihood of missing, it cuts down on the risk associated with moving around in the draft and it instantly meets my top criteria – it makes the team better.

i would rather have the best player than the… 5th or 6th best player and the 33rd best player if i’ve determined the best player is indeed heads and tails the best player.

if i grade four players equal, i’d be open to trading down as long as i stayed in the top 4 and especially if there’s a top QB in the mix (but not among my top 4) because, while i’m open to exploring a new QB, if carr is here next year, it’s not going to be cost-effective to take a QB with a top 4 pick.

There is a plethora of OL prospects in the upcoming draft and the Texans should take the best prospect available as it is their need.
no, it is one of their needs; not the only one. throughout the entirety of this thread, that’s been my biggest objection – this notion that a team as bad as this one – a team that has played 540 minutes of football and held the lead for exactly 17:46 – has a single need. it has needs at every. single. position.

you can’t not upgrade this talent. if you go into this draft so narrowly focused, you will get burned and this team cannot afford to get burned. someone else mentioned duncan; i liken it to the blazers passing on jordan because they needed a center and already had glyde. that's how narrow focus can kill you and that was light years before a salary cap would have made it an even bigger mistake.

[reggietodd]

How can you pass on Reggie Bush?!?

That's like passing on Tim Duncan and taking Keith Van Horn because you already have a center.

I think thats a great analogy.

According to the poll, the board likes BUSH.

[Nick]

I think thats a great analogy.

According to the poll, the board likes BUSH.

According to the poll, more voters are supportive of trading down, or taking an O-lineman... than taking Bush.

The poll is flawed becuase those two other options split the vote. If the vote was simply Bush vs. No Bush, the latter would be winning.

Also, these cross-sport analogies have to stop... they don't make sense to begin with because they are different sports, different circumstances, and a different scope of how you evaluate players/positions all-together. This is not Van Horn, Steve Francis, Yao Ming, or any other b-ball situation... Football is entirely different because one player cannot make a difference like they can in the NBA.

[Groogrux]

I think thats a great analogy.

According to the poll, the board likes BUSH.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with either of these statements aside from the fact that they are both completely false.

[Nick]

you can’t not upgrade this talent. if you go into this draft so narrowly focused, you will get burned and this team cannot afford to get burned. someone else mentioned duncan; i liken it to the blazers passing on jordan because they needed a center and already had glyde. that's how narrow focus can kill you and that was light years before a salary cap would have made it an even bigger mistake.

Once again... different SPORT!

One player can make the difference in basketball... Jordan could have made the Blazers better all by himself.

In football, the TEAM needs to be improved overall (as you've pointed out many times)... and Reggie Bush on this team, or even one with a marginally improved offensive-line that would have no experience together... would not neccesarily be that good.

Frankly, the risk/reward of getting a stud pro-bowl LT for 10+ years, vs. taking a RB who could be good (even though there have been better backs drafted later), and would likely have a shorter career (see virtually every RB in the NFL), speaks for itself.

The TEAM needs help... start with the line (the foundation), and build from there.

[xiki]

The TEAM needs help... start with the line (the foundation), and build from there.

I do believe that the start must be even earlier than the line. So, who do you draft to run the franchise and who do you draft to run the team then who they draft makes great sense.

To point: If ML then ensure a good draft replacement for DC, a 2 and a 3? More?

[swilkins]

How can you pass on Reggie Bush?!?

That's like passing on Tim Duncan and taking Keith Van Horn because you already have a center.

...because you already had a Power Forward?

[Baqui99]

Reggie Bush is not a "between the tackles runner, a skillset that is required of all NFL caliber tailbacks. Granted, he has great open field moves and speed, but I think he projects as a WR/KR at the next level. He doesn't have the leg strength or drive to move the chains in short yardage situations.

When I see Bush, I'm quickly reminded of Rocket Ismail, Desmond Howard, and Eric Metcalf. All those guys had serious speed and open field moves. But none of them played TB in the NFL.

Meanwhile, you have a potential Jonathan Ogden/Walter Jones/Orlando Pace type of player in D'Brickshaw Ferguson. He's big, strong and athletic, and could anchor the line for many years to come. Okay, even if we don't want Ferguson, we could trade the #1 overall pick and get a huge return, just like San Diego did a couple of years ago with Eli Manning. Meanwhile we pickup an AJ Hawk or Jonathan Scott, either of whom would be solid picks.

[reggietodd]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with either of these statements aside from the fact that they are both completely false.

Are you saying you don't like BUSH? I didn't know you swung that way. :eek:

[Groogrux]

Are you saying you don't like BUSH? I didn't know you swung that way. :eek:

That's about as funny as your statement was true. Not at all.

[jopatmc]

Dido. Draft Bush and go get OL fixing else where (later rd. picks , free agency)
Alot of the teams with good OL dont have top 10 drafted OL


Name them. There are more teams with good running backs that aren't top 10 drafted then there are teams with good left tackles that aren't top drafted.

The only way we draft Bush or one of the QBs is to hold them hostage for a team to overcompensate us for them if we can't get the right deal before the draft.

Go back and look at the history of Super Bowl teams and playoff teams and compare their blind side tackles to their running backs. There is a disporportionate amount of high first round pick blind side tackles on those teams and a plethora of lower than first round drafted running backs.

It is much easier to get a quality back later in the draft then it is to get a top notch blind side tackle. For that matter, it is easier to pull out a good QB outside the first round of the draft, then it is to find a top notch tackle after the first round.

[reggietodd]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with either of these statements aside from the fact that they are both completely false.

Of all the choices available, drafting Bush is the favorite, therefore that statement is not false. If you used this logic, you could say that no poll with more than 2 options is never accurate because you could compile the results of the other options up against the winning option and negate it.

The definition of an analogy is similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar. So the poster comparing not drafting Tim Duncan because you already have a decent center is applicable to not drafting Reggie Bush because you already have a decent running back. It is a great analogy according to the definition of an analogy, therefore this is not false either.

Why do you try to turn everything into D&D? Oh yeah thats right you got kicked out of there, so the only thing that is false is your ability to get into the D&D area so you try to turn all other threads an comments into your own D&D regardless of which forum they may be in.

[Groogrux]

Of all the choices available, drafting Bush is the favorite, therefore that statement is not false. If you used this logic, you could say that no poll with more than 2 options is never accurate because you could compile the results of the other options up against the winning option and negate it.

Based on the poll, more people would prefer to not draft Bush, unless we have people on here who believe that we could still trade down and take Bush.

The definition of an analogy is similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar. So the poster comparing not drafting Tim Duncan because you already have a decent center is applicable to not drafting Reggie Bush because you already have a decent running back. It is a great analogy according to the definition of an analogy, therefore this is not false either.

It's not a great analogy when you're comparing two different things. It's like comparing, oh, I don't know, apples and oranges. Not to mention, Tim Duncan isn't a center only.

Why do you try to turn everything into D&D? Oh yeah thats right you got kicked out of there, so the only thing that is false is your ability to get into the D&D area so you try to turn all other threads an comments into your own D&D regardless of which forum they may be in.

Um, am I the only one debating here? Did I start the thread? Off the top of my head, I can name you, ric, Major, swilkins, Nick, gunn, MadMax, jopatmc, Baqui99, and Jared Novak participating in this debate. Are you saying the only reason they're debating is because I started it? Wow, I did not know I had that kind of influence here.

Go to a Laker board or get your panties out of a wad.

[jopatmc]

Running backs run the ball or catch the ball. Offensive Tackles protect the entire offense. They are the ones that allow the QB the time to throw the ball, the RB the space to run the ball, and the receivers time to run their routes and catch the ball. Not only that but with a good OL, they give the defense time to rest so that they can effectively balance the field and put pressure on the opposing offense. Without a good OL, you have the 2005 Houston Texans.

It's really pretty simple. If we had Tom Brady and Ladanian Tomlinson on this team, we'd still have about 1 win because they wouldn't have the time or space to throw, catch, and run. On the other hand, if we had Orlando Pace and Jon Runyan on this team, we would be staring the playoffs in the face. It's as plain as the nose on your face. The OL is top priority this off season.

[Baqui99]

Reggie Bush = Rocket Ismail/Eric Metcalf

[reggietodd]

Based on the poll, more people would prefer to not draft Bush, unless we have people on here who believe that we could still trade down and take Bush.

If we had a poll that said who would you want the rockets to trade and 40 people said mike james and 15 people said Wesley, 15 people said Sura, and then 15 said trade nobody, then would you say that the consensus was to trade James or would you say that the consensus was to not trade Mike James? Your deceptive argument could be used in any poll of this sort.

It's not a great analogy when you're comparing two different things. It's like comparing, oh, I don't know, apples and oranges. Not to mention, Tim Duncan isn't a center only.

Ok i'd use Shaq as my comparison, not Duncan. I think Bush is the type of player who can have the same type of impact on a football field as Shaq can on a basketball court. (my opinion, it will be proven right or wrong in time).

Um, am I the only one debating here? Did I start the thread? Off the top of my head, I can name you, ric, Major, swilkins, Nick, gunn, MadMax, jopatmc, Baqui99, and Jared Novak participating in this debate. Are you saying the only reason they're debating is because I started it? Wow, I did not know I had that kind of influence here.

Go to a Laker board or get your panties out of a wad.

The other posters you mentioned simply give their opinions, you however takes quotes and try to dissect them to make the user look bad. And i'm not a Laker fan, but I do know a superstar player when I see one and its a joy for me to watch Kobe Bryant play basketball, i'm glad I get to see it live in my lifetime. Since i'm a fan of the game of basketball, and grew up playing it my whole life, I can appreciate good players and I follow them and their teams, are you a fan of the NBA or are you a Rockets only type fan? If you choose the latter then don't knock me for liking Kobe Bryant because you'd never understand.

[gunn]

When I see Bush, I'm quickly reminded of Rocket Ismail, Desmond Howard, and Eric Metcalf. All those guys had serious speed and open field moves. But none of them played TB in the NFL.

None of them played TB in the NFL, because they wern't running backs. Maybe you could credit Metcalf with some time in the backfield, but he was primarily a receiver. Bush is also bigger than those three.

[Groogrux]

If we had a poll that said who would you want the rockets to trade and 40 people said mike james and 15 people said Wesley, 15 people said Sura, and then 15 said trade nobody, then would you say that the consensus was to trade James or would you say that the consensus was to not trade Mike James? Your deceptive argument could be used in any poll of this sort.

You can make up any hypothetical poll you want. We all know what the three options other than draft Bush mean. They mean don't draft Bush. We're talking about a majority and a consensus of people on this board saying they don't want to draft Bush. In your hypothetical poll, the majority of the people did not want to trade James and the consensus would be to trade someone other than James.

Ok i'd use Shaq as my comparison, not Duncan. I think Bush is the type of player who can have the same type of impact on a football field as Shaq can on a basketball court. (my opinion, it will be proven right or wrong in time).

Shaq would be a better comparison, but it's still not the same. In the NBA, one player can make a huge difference. You won't find many people, if any, who would agree that one person could make the difference on this Texan team.

The other posters you mentioned simply give their opinions, you however takes quotes and try to dissect them to make the user look bad.

I can't help if my dissections make posters look bad. And re-read over this and other threads. What you're accusing me of doing, many others have done as well. Hell, you're doing it now.

And i'm not a Laker fan, but I do know a superstar player when I see one and its a joy for me to watch Kobe Bryant play basketball, i'm glad I get to see it live in my lifetime. Since i'm a fan of the game of basketball, and grew up playing it my whole life, I can appreciate good players and I follow them and their teams, are you a fan of the NBA or are you a Rockets only type fan? If you choose the latter then don't knock me for liking Kobe Bryant because you'd never understand.

I'm a basketball fan. I think Kobe's a cocky, selfish asshole. As an NBA fan, you should be pissed that he couldn't get along with someone that made his team a lot better than it is without him and pretty much forced the Lakers to ship him out.

[swilkins]

Ok i'd use Shaq as my comparison, not Duncan. I think Bush is the type of player who can have the same type of impact on a football field as Shaq can on a basketball court. (my opinion, it will be proven right or wrong in time).

How can you be so sure?

USC also has a top notch OL and the highest rated QB in the draft. Bush is a great player because USC has assembled the right pieces around him to make him successful.

I wouldn't go so far as to compare Bush to Shaq.

[reggietodd]

How can you be so sure?

I wouldn't go so far as to compare Bush to Shaq.

I think when Shaq was coming out of college it was pretty close to a sure thing, the same way with Lebron, they said he'd be the #1 overall pick if he had come out of high school as a junior. I feel the same way about Reggie Bush, its really as close as i've seen to a sure thing in football. I do agree that it is easier to dominate a game in basketball, so the comparisons aren't perfect, but you get the idea.......

[Nick]

I think when Shaq was coming out of college it was pretty close to a sure thing, the same way with Lebron, they said he'd be the #1 overall pick if he had come out of high school as a junior. I feel the same way about Reggie Bush, its really as close as i've seen to a sure thing in football. I do agree that it is easier to dominate a game in basketball, so the comparisons aren't perfect, but you get the idea.......

Funnily enough, Kijana Carter was more of a sure thing than Reggie Bush... but, you get the idea.

[reggietodd]

Shaq would be a better comparison, but it's still not the same. In the NBA, one player can make a huge difference. You won't find many people, if any, who would agree that one person could make the difference on this Texan team.

I can agree with that. But I think when you have someone of that caliber they can make everyone around them step up their game in any sport. The Texans would be a better team with a superstar like LT, but could he carry them to the playoffs by himself? I don't think so.

I can't help if my dissections make posters look bad. And re-read over this and other threads. What you're accusing me of doing, many others have done as well. Hell, you're doing it now.

I learned it from you.



I'm a basketball fan. I think Kobe's a cocky, selfish asshole. As an NBA fan, you should be pissed that he couldn't get along with someone that made his team a lot better than it is without him and pretty much forced the Lakers to ship him out.

Kobe is confident in his ability, not really cocky, he doesn't go around talking mess. Muhamad Ali was cocky, Kobe is confident. The deal with Shaq could have been more of a personality clash than anything and we don't all know the whole story. Kobe wants to be the man and there is nothing wrong with that, I doubt Jordan could have played with Shaq and would have been happy being the second option. The Lakers kept him and Phil Jackson came back so it couldn't have been that bad. Plus, I think Kobe has grown up, hes never in the news getting in trouble like Iverson or any of those guys, hes never seen out at the clubs partying, he doesn't wear ghetto/ganster clothing. He had 1 incident were a money hungry skank threw herself at him and in a moment of weakness he took her up on her offer and now he's the worst guy in the world? Not in my book.

[Baqui99]

None of them played TB in the NFL, because they wern't running backs. Maybe you could credit Metcalf with some time in the backfield, but he was primarily a receiver. Bush is also bigger than those three.

They are all similar players. Bush might be slightly taller than Rocket and Desmond, but they're almost identical players. Bush will be a decent WR/KR, but don't expect a guy that can carry the ball 20-25 times a game.

[reggietodd]

Funnily enough, Kijana Carter was more of a sure thing than Reggie Bush... but, you get the idea.

No. I don't get the idea. Kijana Carter was hit with a serious knee injury in the Pre-Season. He was not successful because of an injury so you can't use this analogy. I'm making my claims assuming that Bush doesn't have a serious injury.

[reggietodd]

They are all similar players. Bush might be slightly taller than Rocket and Desmond, but they're almost identical players. Bush will be a decent WR/KR, but don't expect a guy that can carry the ball 20-25 times a game.

Warrick Dunn is smaller than all of them and he carrys the ball 20-25 times per game and does it well.

[Nick]

No. I don't get the idea. Kijana Carter was hit with a serious knee injury in the Pre-Season. He was not successful because of an injury so you can't use this analogy. I'm making my claims assuming that Bush doesn't have a serious injury.

You're also making your claims assuming that Bush will be the greatest RB to ever enter the NFL.

The only fact that I have is that RB's (for whatever reason) have shorter carrers than lineman. That is why I don't want the Texans using the #1 pick on him.

Additionally, you can get game-breaking RB's all over the place... hell, a new one emerges every year (see Willie Parker). Unfortuantely, you CANNOT get game-changing offensive tackles anytime you want. You can get good ones, yes... but not the types that you can write in the lineup everyday for the next 10+ years.

[Nick]

Warrick Dunn is smaller than all of them and he carrys the ball 20-25 times per game and does it well.

Hmm... and he wasn't the first pick in the draft??? SHOCKER!

[Xenon]

Warrick Dunn is smaller than all of them and he carrys the ball 20-25 times per game and does it well.

Can't forget Tiki Barber. I agree that argument is not a good one.

[Baqui99]

Warrick Dunn is smaller than all of them and he carrys the ball 20-25 times per game and does it well.

I expect a little better than Warrick Dunn quality out of the 1st overall pick. Dunn can't run between the tackles either, which is why ATL had to draft TJ Duckett a couple of seasons ago.

[Groogrux]

Can't forget Tiki Barber. I agree that argument is not a good one.

Were either of those guys taken with the first pick?

[gunn]

Hmm... and he wasn't the first pick in the draft??? SHOCKER!

Hmm... and he doesn't possess the ability of Bush either???

[gunn]

They are all similar players. Bush might be slightly taller than Rocket and Desmond, but they're almost identical players. Bush will be a decent WR/KR, but don't expect a guy that can carry the ball 20-25 times a game.


You can try to dance around it all you like, but the fact remains that the three players you mentioned wern't running backs.

[reggietodd]

You're also making your claims assuming that Bush will be the greatest RB to ever enter the NFL.

Coming out of college, Yes. He is top 5 in the history of NFL in terms of potential and hype coming out of college. The only argument that you guys could use against me here is Herschel Walker.

The only fact that I have is that RB's (for whatever reason) have shorter carrers than lineman. That is why I don't want the Texans using the #1 pick on him.

2 Offensive linemen have been selected 1st overall in the History of the NFL draft (1968, tackle Ron Yary by Minnesota; 1997, tackle Orlando Pace by St. Louis.).
22 RB's have been selected #1 overall.

In general, it seems most experts on football who run NFL teams don't use their #1 overall pick on O-linemen.

Additionally, you can get game-breaking RB's all over the place... hell, a new one emerges every year (see Willie Parker). Unfortuantely, you CANNOT get game-changing offensive tackles anytime you want. You can get good ones, yes... but not the types that you can write in the lineup everyday for the next 10+ years.

Willie Parker did his damage in the beginning when defenses knew nothing about him and gameplanned for the passing game. He isn't doing much now, I realize he is injured. I'd put him in the DD class of running backs. Average. Defenses plan their entire scheme around LT and he still tears them up and that in turn opens up the passing game and makes an average qb like Drew Brees look like a pro bowler. If we had Bush, I feel like Carr would be in the Drew Brees category.

[reggietodd]

Were either of those guys taken with the first pick?

No, but it buries the argument that Reggie Bush is too small to carry the load of an NFL running back.

[Nick]

Hmm... and he doesn't possess the ability of Bush either???

Okay... then stop comparing Bush to guys like Dunn and Barber.

Lets try comparing him to the all-time great RB's who were actually taken with the #1 pick... OJ Simpson, Earl Cambell, Billy Simms, Bo Jackson, Kijana Carter.

Or, lets compare him to the top RB's in today's game... Edgerrin James, LT, Preist (pre-injury), Shaun Alexander.

All of the guys mentioned above were, or have been, even more impressive (on either the college or pro level) as Bush has been thus far on the college level....

IOW, Bush isn't going to change the league... he isn't going to be breaking any all-time rushing marks... and he isn't the revolutionary player a lot of you are hoping for. He's going to be a solid back... but jumping to the conclusion that this guy is destined for greatness would be the same mistake that has cost countless scouts/GM's their jobs/careers.

You just can't make those assumptions for a guy going to the NFL... not with the multitude of injuries, the beating that even the biggest of backs take, and the little known fact that if teams can't pass-protect (which we can't)... you're not going to see much running any time soon.

[Jared Novak]

no, it is one of their needs; not the only one. throughout the entirety of this thread, that’s been my biggest objection – this notion that a team as bad as this one – a team that has played 540 minutes of football and held the lead for exactly 17:46 – has a single need. it has needs at every. single. position.

you can’t not upgrade this talent. if you go into this draft so narrowly focused, you will get burned and this team cannot afford to get burned. someone else mentioned duncan; i liken it to the blazers passing on jordan because they needed a center and already had glyde. that's how narrow focus can kill you and that was light years before a salary cap would have made it an even bigger mistake.

No it is their most pressing need and has been for the last four years! We do agree that they have a need at every position, but not at RB. If you're going to upgrade talent, start with the line because that is where the Texans are lacking the most. The Duncan/Jordan/basketball analogy doesn't apply in this situation because in basketball, one player can make a difference. The Texans have a Pro-Bowl WR in Andre Johnson, but as good as he is he can't make a difference on this team because his QB doesn't have enough time to throw the ball, and why because his OL sucks.

Every position in football is interdependent on each other. If the line holds, the RB picks up the blitz and the QB throws the ball to the WR and the WR drops it, then that is a breakdown. Unfortunately most of the time it doesn't get that far. And speaking of salary cap killing, wouldn't taking Reggie Bush and paying him top pick money and now paying DD 3-4 million a year now hurt your cap?

I can understand the reasoning behind taking Bush, because the Texans need help everywhere, however at this point taking a RB (as talented as he is) is not the best place to start that upgrade because he has a sorry OL to block for him. The OL is the backbone/foundation of the offense that is where you start, and this draft has an OL that could start the difference on the line and there will be plenty that will drop to the second round that the Texans could pick as well and revamp the line, because you could have the best RB ever, but if he has a ****ty line then it won't work. And if you use Barry Sanders as an example, Reggie Bush is no Barry Sanders, and how many times have you heard people ask, "What would Barry have done if he would've had a better OL line?", and how many winning teams was Barry on?

[Baqui99]

LenDale White has better pro potential than Reggie Bush.

[Nick]

Everybody here is just going around and around in circles.... the only new addition to this thread since the first page is the idiotic reasoning on why the NBA draft is a good analogy to the NFL draft.... other than that, those who like Bush will continue to defend him blindly... and those that think that the organization as a whole would be better served by looking elsewhere and addressing the O-line will continue to defend that.

Once again, the flawed Poll is still saying that more people think trading down/addressing the O-line is more important than selecting Bush. I'd like to see a new Poll with only TWO options, saying "Draft Bush, or Don't draft Bush... do something else", and you'll get your true answer on what the fans of this BBS think should happen.

[Dream34]

Here is hoping the Texans start winning a few games this season and end up with a lower pick than my Titans! ;) What a terrible year when your team is already out of contention with so many games left to play... Is it April 06 already... :(

Carry on...

[Ric]

Once again... different SPORT!
but the lesson is the same – drafting for need over obvious talent can get you into a world of trouble. it’s true in basketball, football, baseball, professional tetherball…. and when you mix in a salary cap, the trouble quotient multiplies.

When i see Bush, i'm quickly reminded of Rocket ismail, Desmond Howard, and Eric Metcalf. All those guys had serious speed and open field moves. But none of them played TB in the NFL.
those are odd (did i mean convenient?) comparisons, considering none were full-time running backs in college - ismail and howard were, in fact, WRs; metcalf a flanker. otherwise, excellent point. and let me go ahead and cut you off at the pass with what I have to assume will be your next specious line of reasoning: there’s no bust corollary between bush and ryan leaf because they both played for pac-10 schools. sorry.

Meanwhile, you have a potential Jonathan Ogden/Walter Jones/Orlando Pace type of player in D'Brickshaw Ferguson. He's big, strong and athletic, and could anchor the line for many years to come. Okay, even if we don't want Ferguson, we could trade the #1 overall pick and get a huge return, just like San Diego did a couple of years ago with Eli Manning. Meanwhile we pickup an AJ Hawk or Jonathan Scott, either of whom would be solid picks.
it’s interesting, the way you choose to frame this – compare bush to three certifiable busts who don’t even play the same position; use perennial all pros and hall of fame candidates to tout ferguson. yes, the brick is a potential franchise LT; so, too, is bush (with LT = ladanian). but since neither one of us really knows which way their careers will go, let’s dispense with meaningless comparisons. otherwise, i’ll be forced to compare ferguson to mike williams, the #4 overall pick in 2002 who just lost his starting tackle job to an undrafted free agent.

bottom line: every pick is a risk. as for the eli manning deal, SD swapped #1’s in ’04 and picked up a 1 and a 3 in ’05. if you can move down and still pick up the top guy on your board… i’m all for that. i’m reluctant, though, to pass on the best player to take a gamble on next year’s draft, which could be awash with far less talent. or about this: moving down to 4 and then watching someone jump up to 3 to snag ferguson – how would that sit with you? well, when you start trading around, all you guarantee is that nothing guaranteed.

[gunn]

LenDale White has better pro potential than Reggie Bush.

According to you. Also according to you, three receivers suddenly became NFL running backs that never amounted to anything. Imagine that.

[gucci888]

How can you pass on Reggie Bush?!?

That's like passing on Tim Duncan and taking Keith Van Horn because you already have a center.

That's just about the worst analogy you can make. You're assuming Ferguson is a much inferior player which no one can say for sure because they are two completely different positions.

It's like passing on Jay Williams and going for Yao. Everyone was saying Jay was the best player in the draft hands down, hell, they were talking about him being the best PG to come out in years. But you have a player like Yao, who fills your biggest hole, and he's a player that doesn't come around that often in terms of size and skill.

Coming out of college, Yes. He is top 5 in the history of NFL in terms of potential and hype coming out of college. The only argument that you guys could use against me here is Herschel Walker.

:eek: :eek: Give me a break reggie, this is one of the most idiotic statements I've ever read. Don't let all the Sport Center appearences fool you. I've yet to see a single mock draft that has Bush at #1, but according to you, he's one of the top 5 picks in history?

[Furious Jam]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/11/16/gallery.peterking/content.3.html

"The Texans love him." - Peter King @ SI

[kevwun]

Reggie Bush has never put up the type of numbers that any of the top NFL running backs did in college. That is reason for my concern. If he really is destined to be a great NFL running back, it would be really great if he could manage to keep Lendale White on the bench.

[Furious Jam]

I think a lot of people here are missing the value of a franchise offensive lineman. A running back really only affects your running game, whereas an OL can improve your running and passing.

It's like in the NBA when teams pass on flashy scorers to take centers first. A franchise center doesn't just score - he rebounds and blocks shots too.

As far as Reggie Bush goes, our OL is so bad that someone would have to promise me that he's the next Barry Sanders before I'd take him. And even then, I probably wouldn't believe it.

[CriscoKidd]

This whole thread is funny.

On one side you got the fat backers:

- get an OL at any cost
- all things being relatively equal, grab the OL

On the other side you got guys like Ric:

- go for whatever is the most "sure" thing, regardless of position

Then guys like Baqui:

- Lendale white does Bush in the pooper.

And Reggie man-whores like r-todd:

- *slurp* *slurp*


Really it just comes down to how special you think Bush is. If you think Bush is an LT type of back, then yeah, it'd be foolish to pass him up, even for a good OLineman. Give me LT over Jonathen Ogden or Pace anyday. There are OL busts too, and even though Cassie hasn't been able to do it, it is possible to build a good OL w/o having to use a top 5 pick on an OL.

[Groogrux]

There are OL busts too, and even though Cassie hasn't been able to do it, it is possible to build a good OL w/o having to use a top 5 pick on an OL.

I think that's why I'm leaning towards taking what who is considered the best OL in the draft. Casserly has given me absolutely no confidence that he will improve the line in the later rounds or through free agency. The only picks that have really worked out for him have been the no-brainer ones (and the very first one is still up in the air, but Carr was a widely considered the right pick for us).

I'll be honest, if they get rid of Casserly, my reluctance to take Bush with the first pick may diminish.

[Ric]

All of the guys mentioned above were, or have been, even more impressive (on either the college or pro level) as Bush has been thus far on the college level....
this is what i hate about the growth of the draft – it’s no longer about discussing a player’s merits; it’s all about poking holes in their games because doing so is far easier and allows armchair QBs to pretend they know more than they really do. the most common method of doing this involves connecting otherwise irrelevant information together to draw false or shaky conclusions, such as comparing bush to desmond howard or rocket ismail or ki-jana carter as if they have any relevance whatsoever. it’s lazy.

i don’t know if bush is the best player in the draft. if he is, you take him. if not, you don’t. past drafts are irrelevant in evaluating his potential.

No it is their most pressing need and has been for the last four years! We do agree that they have a need at every position, but not at RB.
then we disagree – I think they have a need at RB. and how can OL be the most pressing need at the expense of all others? it took them nearly half a season to record a sack or register a turnover on defense. you’re telling me the play of the OL (which is pretty decent in run blocking, actually) supersedes an almost unprecedented lack of playmakers on defense? that’s my problem with your line of thinking. yes, the OL is a problem… one of many.

The Duncan/Jordan/basketball analogy doesn't apply in this situation because in basketball, one player can make a difference.
the sport isn’t relevant; it’s the thought process. if you pass on great players to get not-as-great players because you’ve concluded that filling your most pressing need is more important than supplying a talentless roster with talent… you end up doing things like, for instance, drafting sam bowie over michael jordan. or jordan gross over andre johnson… or a host of other similar moves that happened or could have happened.

And speaking of salary cap killing, wouldn't taking Reggie Bush and paying him top pick money and now paying DD 3-4 million a year now hurt your cap?
he doesn’t make $3-4 million a year.

I can understand the reasoning behind taking Bush, because the Texans need help everywhere, however at this point taking a RB (as talented as he is) is not the best place to start that upgrade because he has a sorry OL to block for him.
look, they’re not going to draft one player and then stop making additions to the roster. let’s not view the #1 pick in a vacuum. this rebuilding process may take 2-3 years; it certainly won’t happen overnight. that’s why the focus can’t be narrowed down. the team needs a nearly complete overhaul.

as for the line being sorry, it’s been good enough to spring davis for back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons. by extension, if bush is as good as advertised, which would mean better than DD, wouldn’t his speed, vision and gamebreaking skills be a significant upgrade?

And if you use Barry Sanders as an example, Reggie Bush is no Barry Sanders, and how many times have you heard people ask, "What would Barry have done if he would've had a better OL line?", and how many winning teams was Barry on?
five winning teams in 10 years; 3 playoff appearances; 2 division titles; 1 championship game appearance. let me ask you this: was sanders the reason they had five losing seasons? do you think lion fans would go back, redo the ’89 draft and take the best LT instead of sanders? do you think they would have won more if they had?

i don’t know why sanders is even being discussed, but sanders wasn’t the reason the lions never made it the super bowl; but he was the reason they got closer than the oilers ever did, despite multiple first round picks on their OL.

Really it just comes down to how special you think Bush is. If you think Bush is an LT type of back, then yeah, it'd be foolish to pass him up, even for a good OLineman.
at last, an ally! well said.

[swilkins]

I think when Shaq was coming out of college it was pretty close to a sure thing, the same way with Lebron, they said he'd be the #1 overall pick if he had come out of high school as a junior. I feel the same way about Reggie Bush, its really as close as i've seen to a sure thing in football. I do agree that it is easier to dominate a game in basketball, so the comparisons aren't perfect, but you get the idea.......

I just can't see the Texans taking him, even if they could. Most of everyone is going to say, "Build a line, damn it", whether it's Brick or not.

[Stevierebel]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/11/16/gallery.peterking/content.3.html


Interesting caption on Ferguson. The only player of the ten with a team mentioned as a direct possible destination.

[gucci888]

Not a very good caption for Huff. I'm a Longhorn so my post could be biased, but Huff is a pretty solid pick for any team that needs a DB.

[Ric]

Go back and look at the history of Super Bowl teams and playoff teams and compare their blind side tackles to their running backs.
actually, someone posted, in this thread i believe, that of the playoff teams last year, only one had a LT taken in round 1 (the colts).

off the top of my admitedly forgetful head, dillion, martin, bettis, james, LDT, green, dunn and alexander were all in the playoffs last year and all were round 1 picks.

[yaopao]

Reggie Bush is much more comparable to Marshall Faulk than Westbrook.

[DaDakota]

Vince Young

[Jared Novak]

then we disagree – I think they have a need at RB. and how can OL be the most pressing need at the expense of all others? it took them nearly half a season to record a sack or register a turnover on defense. you’re telling me the play of the OL (which is pretty decent in run blocking, actually) supersedes an almost unprecedented lack of playmakers on defense? that’s my problem with your line of thinking. yes, the OL is a problem… one of many.

No we agree that the team needs improvement all over the place. We disagree in the fact that they need to draft a RB as opposed to an OL first.

the sport isn’t relevant; it’s the thought process. if you pass on great players to get not-as-great players because you’ve concluded that filling your most pressing need is more important than supplying a talentless roster with talent… you end up doing things like, for instance, drafting sam bowie over michael jordan. or jordan gross over andre johnson… or a host of other similar moves that happened or could have happened.

First of all the NBA Draft is different than the NFL Draft, you can slice any way you want about the thought process but its comparing apples and oranges, the Blazers picked Bowie because they needed a big man and they had already invested a season and money in another young SG, Clyde Drexler, they didn't need to take another SG. In the case of the Texans they are in need of everything, they already get production from the RB position. They need OL help which has plagued them for four seasons now, they have a chance to start over by making the most of the pick and trading down and still getting their guy.

he doesn’t make $3-4 million a year.

Follow the link and scroll down to the bottom: USA Today (http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/index.php?sport=pftball&type=transandnotes&name=4827)

look, they’re not going to draft one player and then stop making additions to the roster. let’s not view the #1 pick in a vacuum. this rebuilding process may take 2-3 years; it certainly won’t happen overnight. that’s why the focus can’t be narrowed down. the team needs a nearly complete overhaul.

Then start with the basics. When Casserly first drew the blueprints for the team, he wanted to build a good OL. You have a decent RB already, why not take an OL that could possibly anchor the left side of your line for 10+ years.

as for the line being sorry, it’s been good enough to spring davis for back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons. by extension, if bush is as good as advertised, which would mean better than DD, wouldn’t his speed, vision and gamebreaking skills be a significant upgrade?

This is what makes me laugh, why is everyone so quick to annoint Reggie Bush as the next great RB? He has a an OL that is made up of All-Americans and an All-American QB to throw to him, do you really think that he'd be so much better than Davis with the Texans line? Yes, his skillset would be a significant upgrade there is no denying that, what makes you think he'll take the NFL by storm?

five winning teams in 10 years; 3 playoff appearances; 2 division titles; 1 championship game appearance. let me ask you this: was sanders the reason they had five losing seasons? do you think lion fans would go back, redo the ’89 draft and take the best LT instead of sanders? do you think they would have won more if they had?

We're talking about Barry "Freaking" Sanders, the guy shattered NCAA records and had perhaps one of the greatest college careers ever. Reggie Bush couldn't touch Sanders, there simply is no comparison.

i don’t know why sanders is even being discussed, but sanders wasn’t the reason the lions never made it the super bowl; but he was the reason they got closer than the oilers ever did, despite multiple first round picks on their OL.

Sanders is being discussed because thats the kind of RB I want, hell the kind of RB would should all want. Bush doesn't have that kind of talent. Every year there is a can't miss prospect at a skill position, why is it so inconceivable in your mind that the Texans couldn't draft a RB next year or in the later rounds of this upcoming draft. It is so much easier to find a RB than it is a LT. Ultimately it comes down to what CK said, if you think that a certain prospect is special then pick him, I personally don't think Bush is that special player.

[hoang17]

To me, I feel that the Texans are at the stage of drafting the best player instead of drafting by need for position. The sad thing is, we should be drafting for need by position at this so called "part" of the overall expansion gameplan. And if we are drafting the best player available, I would draft Reggie Bush.

I know that our O-line is terrible and that we need to protect carr, but if we don't trade down and had to pick someone at #1, then I would pick Bush over D'Brickashaw. The reason why I would do this is because this draft is supposed to heavily rich in offensive lineman. So what I do is draft bush at 1, then draft a LT at 2, RT at 3 and so on and so forth. Like many have stated earlier, this team has holes in every position but #1 WR and #1 CB so why would you pass up a gamebreaker when drafting a player that has less of a skill wouldn't completely solve the problem?

The question that I ask you guys is what makes you think that D'Brick is the real deal? Just like any other draft prospect, the NFL draft isn't an exact science. So for all the reasons that you stated that Bush might not be that great of a RB, I could say teh same reasons for Ferguson. Wasn't he even hurt this year for a little bit?

I just think that with our franchise short on such talent, the best thing to do is to surround with as much talent as possible. There are no gamebreakers on our team but Andre on offense. DD is a servicable RB but in no way is he a franchise RB (Edge, Shaun Alexander, Priest, etc.) I mean for goodness sake, he was drafted in the 4th round as a 3rd down back! It was Casserly's fault to give him an extension as well as other bone-headed extensions (Walker, Wong, Coleman, etc...) It shocks me to hear that we have the 3rd highest payroll in the NFL!

So in conclusion, *IF* we stay with the #1 overall pick, I would pick Reggie Bush because I feel like he is the best player availabe and a gamebreaker, then use all other picks afterwards towards O-Line and a good TE. That's what we should've done in previous drafts but stupid Casserly tried to think too much outside the box! There's just too much to rant about the idiocy of this organization (from management to coaching) that I could go on for days (and pages)...go texans...rah..rah...rah :(

[Jared Novak]

To me, I feel that the Texans are at the stage of drafting the best player instead of drafting by need for position. The sad thing is, we should be drafting for need by position at this so called "part" of the overall expansion gameplan. And if we are drafting the best player available, I would draft Reggie Bush.

I know that our O-line is terrible and that we need to protect carr, but if we don't trade down and had to pick someone at #1, then I would pick Bush over D'Brickashaw. The reason why I would do this is because this draft is supposed to heavily rich in offensive lineman. So what I do is draft bush at 1, then draft a LT at 2, RT at 3 and so on and so forth. Like many have stated earlier, this team has holes in every position but #1 WR and #1 CB so why would you pass up a gamebreaker when drafting a player that has less of a skill wouldn't completely solve the problem?

The question that I ask you guys is what makes you think that D'Brick is the real deal? Just like any other draft prospect, the NFL draft isn't an exact science. So for all the reasons that you stated that Bush might not be that great of a RB, I could say teh same reasons for Ferguson. Wasn't he even hurt this year for a little bit?

I just think that with our franchise short on such talent, the best thing to do is to surround with as much talent as possible. There are no gamebreakers on our team but Andre on offense. DD is a servicable RB but in no way is he a franchise RB (Edge, Shaun Alexander, Priest, etc.) I mean for goodness sake, he was drafted in the 4th round as a 3rd down back! It was Casserly's fault to give him an extension as well as other bone-headed extensions (Walker, Wong, Coleman, etc...) It shocks me to hear that we have the 3rd highest payroll in the NFL!

So in conclusion, *IF* we stay with the #1 overall pick, I would pick Reggie Bush because I feel like he is the best player availabe and a gamebreaker, then use all other picks afterwards towards O-Line and a good TE. That's what we should've done in previous drafts but stupid Casserly tried to think too much outside the box! There's just too much to rant about the idiocy of this organization (from management to coaching) that I could go on for days (and pages)...go texans...rah..rah...rah :(

I wouldn't keep the top pick if the Texans had it. I would trade down within the top five and pick Ferguson.

The reason why I think Ferguson has what it takes to be a franchise LT is because every Virginia game I've watched (four last year and five this year) he has flat out dominated. He has great eye-hand coordination, nimble feet and doesn't quit until the whistle is blown.

[Ric]

This is what makes me laugh, why is everyone so quick to annoint Reggie Bush as the next great RB? He has a an OL that is made up of All-Americans and an All-American QB to throw to him, do you really think that he'd be so much better than Davis with the Texans line? Yes, his skillset would be a significant upgrade there is no denying that, what makes you think he'll take the NFL by storm?
this is what I said (and have always said): “by extension, if bush is as good as advertised, which would mean better than DD, wouldn’t his speed, vision and gamebreaking skills be a significant upgrade?”

i’m not debating bush’s merits as a first overall pick; i’m not a scout. i got sucked into this because a lot of people have jumped into this thread, pretended they were scouts, and have drawn some pretty feeble conclusions about bush that are irrelevant, untrue and/or just plain silly, so i’ve tried to debunk those. i don’t mind debating his talent, but i’m not going to stand for someone dismissing bush because he thinks he’ll be the next eric metcalf. but never have i anointed bush the best player in this draft or made any declaration about his abilities on the next level.

i advocate the texans taking him ONLY if, in their evaluations, they determine he’s the clear-cut, no doubt, heads and tails best player in this draft. you don’t pass on that guy (bush or whoever) to take a player that’s not as good because you're filling a need, which is why the bowie/jordan reference is, i’m sorry, relevant. it demonstrates perfectly what can happen when you narrow your focus to a (perceived) need (bowie/OL), assume you have spots filled elsewhere (clyde/DD) and then pass on talent (best player in ’06 draft/jordan). it comes back to bite you in the ass more often than not.

btw, if the texans determine ferguson is the best LT prospect since jonathan ogden, then yes, let’s draft him. if bush and ferguson grade out equally as the definitive two best players in this draft, then yes, take ferguson. but you do not draft ferguson just because he’s the best player at the position you’ve deemed is your weakest.

Sanders is being discussed because thats the kind of RB I want, hell the kind of RB would should all want. Bush doesn't have that kind of talent. Every year there is a can't miss prospect at a skill position, why is it so inconceivable in your mind that the Texans couldn't draft a RB next year or in the later rounds of this upcoming draft.
btw, you’re not a scout, either, so let’s not make any uninformed evaluations and pass them off as fact. what we know about bush is he’s exceptionally fast, quick to the hole, a terrific receiver and has incredible vision as demonstrated by his success as a returner.

he certainly has the skills to be a very good back in the nfl. can he carry the load, though? don’t know. can he grasp an offense? don’t know. can he pick up a blitz? don’t know. will his skills translate to the nfl? don’t know.

what i do know is sanders, metcalf, dunn, LDT and a host of other backs people keep dropping in this thread are irrelevant and will have no bearing on whether he makes the leap or not. so please don’t tell us bush doesn’t have barry sanders talent – you don’t know that; i don’t know that… it’s likely few at this point know that.

as for waiting to get a back later, it, like trading down, ups the risk quotient. there’s no guarantee, beyond the first pick, that the guy you want is going to be there when you pick. so you don’t ever pass on great talent hoping someone comparable will be available later. it, like drafting for need over talent - is a receipe for disaster.

[MadMax]

i heard this morning on the radio that Bush has only carried 20x in a game ONCE in his 3 year career at USC. does that scare anyone else off of him?

[MadMax]

Vince Young

and the whole church said....AMEN!!!!

[Ric]

i heard this morning on the radio that Bush has only carried 20x in a game ONCE in his 3 year career at USC. does that scare anyone else off of him?
two schools of thought:

1) he does average 20 touches a game with receiving and return duty;
2) he'll be fresher than the back routinely getting 20 carries a game and possibly, have a longer career because of it (theory).

he's never been hurt (at 'sc - that i know about) and he's not by any standard what you'd consider "little." i think the carries are dictated more by a) the margins of victory; b) the abundance of talent; c) his additional role in the return game.

i'll say this, he makes the most of the carries he does get. a true gamebreaker on the college level.

[Groogrux]

i'll say this, he makes the most of the carries he does get. a true gamebreaker on the college level.

Would you at least agree that

b) the abundance of talent

may have something to do with that?

[MadMax]

two schools of thought:

1) he does average 20 touches a game with receiving and return duty;
2) he'll be fresher than the back routinely getting 20 carries a game and possibly, have a longer career because of it (theory).

he's never been hurt (at 'sc - that i know about) and he's not by any standard what you'd consider "little." i think the carries are dictated more by a) the margins of victory; b) the abundance of talent; c) his additional role in the return game.

i'll say this, he makes the most of the carries he does get. a true gamebreaker on the college level.

great points. but is he an every-down back?? i'm not sure i'd want to use a #1 pick on a running back without knowing that with some reasonable certainty.

[Ric]

Would you at least agree that [the abundance of talent] may have something to do with that?
his success or the fewer carries? i think both are true, actually. but i don't think white getting some of bush's carries has anything to do with any limitations with bush. it might; but i think it's a simple case of carroll having a really nice problem - how do i play all this talent?

the only thing i can think it compares to is barber/dayne. maybe duce/bettis, but i think barber/dayne is a better analogy. the NYG deemed dayne better at banging away at teams, getting short yardage... did it mean barber couldn't do those things? well, as we see now, no - barber is an elite, every down back. but they had the capacity to rest him, play him in more favorable situations to exploit his strengths and save his energy... i think usc is using the same model. but again, i'm merely speculating.

great points. but is he an every-down back?? i'm not sure i'd want to use a #1 pick on a running back without knowing that with some reasonable certainty.
no idea; that's for casserly to decide... vomit. i do know bush will have more carries than brown did his senior year at auburn and he was a top 3 pick.. in fact, didn't he go ahead of williams?

which means only that i don't know if that's something teams are concerned with. but yeah, as the #1 pick, you better do your homework.

[Jared Novak]

btw, you’re not a scout, either, so let’s not make any uninformed evaluations and pass them off as fact. what we know about bush is he’s exceptionally fast, quick to the hole, a terrific receiver and has incredible vision as demonstrated by his success as a returner.

he certainly has the skills to be a very good back in the nfl. can he carry the load, though? don’t know. can he grasp an offense? don’t know. can he pick up a blitz? don’t know. will his skills translate to the nfl? don’t know.

what i do know is sanders, metcalf, dunn, LDT and a host of other backs people keep dropping in this thread are irrelevant and will have no bearing on whether he makes the leap or not. so please don’t tell us bush doesn’t have barry sanders talent – you don’t know that; i don’t know that… it’s likely few at this point know that.

as for waiting to get a back later, it, like trading down, ups the risk quotient. there’s no guarantee, beyond the first pick, that the guy you want is going to be there when you pick. so you don’t ever pass on great talent hoping someone comparable will be available later. it, like drafting for need over talent - is a receipe for disaster.

I never said or insinuated that I was a scout. I'm just stating my opinion (because thats what the BBS is for, to exchange and debate ideas). You've taken a personal stance on this on your own, no one has sucked you into it. You're opinion is that you want Reggie Bush in a Texans uniform, mine is that I want Ferguson in a Texans uniform. I haven't made any evaluations about Bush, I simply do not think he is that special player, that is my opinion . Do not make the mistake of confusing a fans opinion with a scouting report.

Obviously you have your opinions and your own scouting evaluations, so I'll simply say that my belief and opinion is that the Texans should take the best OL prospect available because it helps shore up their greatest need.

[TigerBait]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3471218.html

Chester Pitts was only expected to be a temporary replacement at left tackle for the Texans. But that might change.

The position that has been unsettled for 3 1/2 years appears to have finally found its man. After taking a short detour to left guard, Pitts is in the midst of securing a long-term job at left tackle.

In his past four starts, Pitts has played well. He has not given up a sack, despite lining up against talented Indianapolis Colts pass rusher Dwight Freeney twice during that span. On the season, Pitts has given up only 2.75 sacks of the Texans' 46 sacks, according to StatsPass.

"I feel as comfortable with him back there as anybody, because I know he's going to do whatever it takes to keep guys off me," quarterback David Carr said. "That's all I ask."

If Pitts can continue his strong play in the next seven games, the Texans' plans in the upcoming NFL draft will likely change. Instead of using one of their top picks on a left tackle, the Texans could fill another area of need.

This was never expected to be a problem for the Texans. In the expansion draft, they had selected an established tackle, Tony Boselli, to man the most critical spot on the line and protect Carr's blindside. When Boselli failed to pan out because of a shoulder injury, Pitts, who was originally drafted to play guard, was thrown into the mix as a rookie.

"On a normal team, he wouldn't have started as a rookie," general manager Charley Casserly said. "We threw him out there before he was ready to play — strength-wise. He was raw, with a limited football background, and he needed strength development.

"Every year he has gotten bigger and stronger though. He's a man when you look at him now — 330 pounds. He's also got experience."

Pitts, a left tackle at San Diego State, showed gradual improvement in his first year and devoted himself in the weight room. In his second season, Pitts, 6-4, was even better.

The Texans still wanted to try him at guard. So in 2004, they moved him inside. That experiment lasted 20 games.

With the line struggling in pass-rush situations this season, Pitts has made a difficult transition back to tackle look almost seamless.

"It takes time to get your sets to feel good, to recondition the way your brain thinks," said Pitts, 26, who has started at tackle the past five games. "You're dealing with speed and quickness and power occasionally, whereas inside at guard you are dealing with power on every play, and occasionally you get a quick guy."

After almost four seasons in the NFL, Pitts looks more and more like the tackle the Texans have sought.

"He's playing better at left tackle than he ever has, but there are still some technique things he can improve," coach Dom Capers said. "When Chester played tackle, he had a tendency to extend his arms rather than keep his hands inside. When he didn't keep his hands inside, it allowed the defensive end to get into him and get control of him. ... Now he uses his hands better at tackle. And he's really helped our pass protection."

Pitts is solid in pass protection and in the run game. He also has proved to be durable. Pitts is only one of six offensive linemen in the NFL who hasn't missed a snap since the 2002 season.

"Part of that is luck," Pitts said. "They also say you get hurt when you don't go full speed. If you go full speed, you don't get hurt. I try to go full speed every play. So far, it's worked."

I agree with this, Pitts has been playing fairly well at LT the last couple of games. This could give us alot of options like taking Bush in the first and then take a guy like McNeil in the second and play him at RT. We could also still draft Furgeson and play him at RT and eventually put him at LT.

D'Brick is playing on ESPN right now.

[Dubious]

Hmmm, If Pitts can make it at left tackle we really could afford to trade down a couple of spots get an extra pick and still get a crushing run blocker.

football.about.com/od/playerprofiles/p/marcusmcneil.htm

But even with an emerging Pitts we need o-linemen #1,2 and 3.

[Luckyazn]

BUSH TD AGAIN !!! :eek: USC 27-21


How can the Texans pass him up??

[rocks_fan]

Well, looking at the USC/Fresno St. game, the Texans oughta be looking REAL hard at Bush if they get the #1 pick. This guy looks like the definition of the phrase "Game Breaker". USC looked BAD in the first half, then he comes out, nearly breaks a punt return, then breaks a TD run. The Texans need to shore up the line, but there are several good OTs in the draft this year. There's only one Reggie Bush.

[Luckyazn]

Draft Bush and use ALL THE OTHER PICKS ON OL!! and free agency


Imagine a AJ/Bush combo!!!!! :eek:

[Harrisment]

Damn, he looks like he's moving at twice the speed of everyone else on the field.

[Harrisment]

Ok, thats it. I'm sold. Reggie Bush is unbelievable. If he's on the board when the Texans draft, they can't pass him up.

[IC2000]

Ok, thats it. I'm sold. Reggie Bush is unbelievable. If he's on the board when the Texans draft, they can't pass him up.

It is a no brainer, if pitts continues to improve at LT, than there is no reason not to take him. Bush is the best player in college football.

[geeimsobored]

Ok, thats it. I'm sold. Reggie Bush is unbelievable. If he's on the board when the Texans draft, they can't pass him up.

After watching the game today, I'm starting to lean in that direction as well. You'll never see another running back like this for many many years.

Besides this draft is ripe with O-Line players so I'm sure we can get some decent ones down the line.

[The Cat]

Has Bush even been touched on most of his touchdown runs?

Bush is a nice player, but there's half-a-dozen backs in college football who could do that well given those gaping holes and the threat of Matt Leinart in the passing game. On his last touchdown run he was 20 yards downfield before a defender was within five yards of him. Yes, he's faster than the entire defense... and considering it's a WAC team, he better be.

That said, I do realize that he's probably won the Heisman tonight, so congratulations to him.

[geeimsobored]

two schools of thought:

1) he does average 20 touches a game with receiving and return duty;
2) he'll be fresher than the back routinely getting 20 carries a game and possibly, have a longer career because of it (theory).

he's never been hurt (at 'sc - that i know about) and he's not by any standard what you'd consider "little." i think the carries are dictated more by a) the margins of victory; b) the abundance of talent; c) his additional role in the return game.

i'll say this, he makes the most of the carries he does get. a true gamebreaker on the college level.

Also one thing to point out. USC has another really good back in LenDale White. This guy would be a top running back for any other school in the country except USC and maybe Oklahoma (assuming peterson is healthy). USC has two one thousand yard backs so they use them fairly effectively. Also Bush is unique. He can run, return kicks, and line up in the slot and function as a wide reciever. Plus with Houston, we have Domanick Davis who could still take a lot of rushes and allow Bush to line up as a WR or RB. (see Brian Westbrook) A creative coach (i.e. not Capers) could use Bush in so many different ways.

[Luckyazn]

Look the point is our team suck anyway so why not TAKE THE BEST TALENT and someone like BUSH to build around.


GET OL anywhere else ..... I dont want to watch D'BRICK blocking for Carr on 1st down run 2nd down run 3rd down pass PUNT.

[swilkins]

Here's the deal.

The Texans like playing for Capers and they will do everything in their power to keep him here.

The Texans played winning teams the first half of this year. Their schedule is MUCH easier in the second half.

With 7 games remaining, the Texans will win 4 of them.

Goodbye top 3 pick. Goodbye Reggie Bush.

Count on it.

[Luckyazn]

our other wins will only be vs Arizona

Greenbay will win Monday Nite
SF beats us last game of yr

So we're 2-14 !

[swilkins]

our other wins will only be vs Arizona

Greenbay will win Monday Nite
SF beats us last game of yr

So we're 2-14 !

L - 11 Sun, Nov 20 Kansas City
W - 12 Sun, Nov 27 St. Louis
W - 13 Sun, Dec 4 at Baltimore
L - 14 Sun, Dec 11 at Tennessee
W - 15 Sun, Dec 18 Arizona
L - 16 Sat, Dec 24 Jacksonville
W - 17 Sun, Jan 1 at San Francisco

5-11

[moestavern19]

Has Bush even been touched on most of his touchdown runs?

Bush is a nice player, but there's half-a-dozen backs in college football who could do that well given those gaping holes and the threat of Matt Leinart in the passing game. On his last touchdown run he was 20 yards downfield before a defender was within five yards of him. Yes, he's faster than the entire defense... and considering it's a WAC team, he better be.

That said, I do realize that he's probably won the Heisman tonight, so congratulations to him.


You wouldn't want to draft Bush and have him rot on the bench behind 1000 yard rusher Tony Hollings either.

[noscrusir]

Holy crap... 513 yards??? That's it.. I dont care what happens the rest of the season.. WE MUST DRAFT REGGIE BUSH!

[DKAIII]

I haven't made any evaluations about Bush, I simply do not think he is that special player, that is my opinion . Do not make the mistake of confusing a fans opinion with a scouting report.

Obviously you have your opinions and your own scouting evaluations, so I'll simply say that my belief and opinion is that the Texans should take the best OL prospect available because it helps shore up their greatest need.

We can respectively disagree on what the best path on which the Texans can take to improve their team with their draft strategy, but hopefully you watched the game last night. If that is the case, please tell me you can't honestly think that Bush is not that special of a player.

Also, earlier you said there was no comparison between Sanders & Bush, well...

In 1998, Sanders had 2,628 yards with 37 TD's on 344 carries (could not find any receiving stats). That's an average of 7.36 yds per carry and a TD once every 9.3 rushes.

This year, Bush has 1398 yards with 13 TD's on 163 carries. That's an average of 8.57 yards per carry and a TD once every 12.5 rushes.

Really not all that huge of a stastical difference on a per-carry basis.

Look, I'm a big 'SC homer so I am going to watch the Trojan players through crimson-tinted glasses. In all actuality, Reggie is probably not going to come close to having the professional carrer of Barry Sanders (who the heck is going to?), but I do honestly think that if the Texans got the first pick in the coming draft they would be better served, IMO, to pick Bush with the top pick, grab whoever the best player that drops out of the first round with the top pick in the second, then spend their two third round picks on the best O-line prospects.

Oh yeah, and also get a new coaching staff/personell department. And switch to the 4-3. And give me season tickets (or at least pay for my Sunday Ticket). And cure cancer & promote world peace.

[DKAIII]

Also, did anyone see how D'Brickshaw (yeah, we're on a first name basis) performed against Va. Tech? I could not see the game due to work. Since I do give us a better than 50% chance of taking him, I'd like to know how he played against a fairly sout D.

[MadMax]

In 1998, Sanders had 2,628 yards with 37 TD's on 344 carries (could not find any receiving stats). That's an average of 7.36 yds per carry and a TD once every 9.3 rushes.

This year, Bush has 1398 yards with 13 TD's on 163 carries. That's an average of 8.57 yards per carry and a TD once every 12.5 rushes.

Really not all that huge of a stastical difference on a per-carry basis.



This is what MANY of us here are saying, though. Sanders in 98 had over twice as many carries as Bush does. No one is denying that Bush is a special talent. There are just a lot of us who are concerned that he won't be an everydown back in the NFL. That he won't be used inside the tackles and that he's worthless on the goal line, even on a college team. And that you don't spend a #1 pick on THAT kind of player. That's why you see the comparisons to guys like Eric Metcalf, a guy who you certainly wouldn't use a #1 on. He's a flanker.

I'll be the first to tell you that I'm not an expert. But I'd love to see the Texans address first and foremost THE problem that has been THE problem from the moment they stepped onto the field in 2002...the offensive line.

[DKAIII]

This is what MANY of us here are saying, though. Sanders in 98 had over twice as many carries as Bush does. No one is denying that Bush is a special talent. There are just a lot of us who are concerned that he won't be an everydown back in the NFL. That he won't be used inside the tackles and that he's worthless on the goal line, even on a college team. And that you don't spend a #1 pick on THAT kind of player. That's why you see the comparisons to guys like Eric Metcalf, a guy who you certainly wouldn't use a #1 on. He's a flanker.

I'll be the first to tell you that I'm not an expert. But I'd love to see the Texans address first and foremost THE problem that has been THE problem from the moment they stepped onto the field in 2002...the offensive line.

I understand that many people are concerned that Bush has not been used as an everydown back in college. Who knows how he'll be if/when he is in the NFL. Will he have a career more like Marshall Faulk, or more like Michael Bennett? I don't know, I have my opinions, but they've been wrong in the past.

I admit that I, like you, am not an expert. Compared to people who do this for a living, I'm not even an amateur. I agree completely that the line has been a dreadful experience from the get go, but I don't agree with the prevailing thought that you MUST spend your top draft pick on a left tackle to ensure offensive success. Minnesota and Buffalo spent their first picks in 2002 (same year as Carr) on Bryant McKinnie & Mike Williams respectively. Minnesota's line play has been as tragic as ours this year & Williams has now been moved to guard. Teams like Denver & Atlanta have been able to take total no-names & create/train/establish effective lines.

It seems to me that this years draft is going to be very deep in quality offensive line prospects. It also appears to be relatively weak in the way of freakishly gifted athletes. I would think that if you grab Bush with your first pick, you stand a very good chance to acquire a Winston Justice, Max Jean-Giles, Jonathan Scott, or someone at the very top of the second round. There are always some "cant-miss" first rounders who drop unexpectedly. This of course is all dependent on which juniors declare, free agency, and the combine. Heck, who knows, maybe the Texans will roll off three or four victories and render the entire discussion moot.

[MadMax]

Heck, who knows, maybe the Texans will roll off three or four victories and render the entire discussion moot.

honestly, i think this is a very likely scenario.

[VesceySux]

Garnered All-America honors, as he finished with 1,539 yards rushing and 23 touchdowns...Set season records in rushing average (7.8) and 100-yard games (9)...Named co-MVP of the 1994 Rose Bowl with 156 rushing yards and three TDs on 21 carries, including an 83-yard score...

Sounds impressive, right? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Ki-Jana Carter, (consensus) #1 pick of the Cincinnati Bengals in the 1995 draft. The last time someone drafted a running back with the #1 pick? Yep, it was Ki-Jana Carter, 10 years ago.

Please, Texans, do your homework before the draft. That's all I ask.

[RocketFan85]

Reggie Bush is going to put up Marshial Faulk like numbers so I would go for him. Matt Leinart has want it takes to be a all-pro QB, so he would be a good pick also. I'm wondering if the Texans could get for the #1 pick. Could they trade down since some teams are going to want Leinart pretty bad and still get Bush? Also DeAngelo Williams may be a sleeper pick. He has rushed for 5661 career yards and rushed for 50 tds. I'd still go for Bush though. He has MVP type talent.

[rocketfan83]

Garnered All-America honors, as he finished with 1,539 yards rushing and 23 touchdowns...Set season records in rushing average (7.8) and 100-yard games (9)...Named co-MVP of the 1994 Rose Bowl with 156 rushing yards and three TDs on 21 carries, including an 83-yard score...

Sounds impressive, right? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Ki-Jana Carter, (consensus) #1 pick of the Cincinnati Bengals in the 1995 draft. The last time someone drafted a running back with the #1 pick? Yep, it was Ki-Jana Carter, 10 years ago.

Please, Texans, do your homework before the draft. That's all I ask.

I wouldn't have guessed that its been that long.

I think Carter tore his knee up in preseason his rookie year.

But that is one thing about drafting a running back so high. Those guys can give you a great a great 4-5 years than fade away. Thats why I am all on the Matt Leinhart bandwagon. If the Texans were closer to contending I'd go with Bush but its going to be a while before the TExans can contend so Leinhart would be my pick.

[Ric]

Bush is a nice player, but there's half-a-dozen backs in college football who could do that well given those gaping holes and the threat of Matt Leinart in the passing game. On his last touchdown run he was 20 yards downfield before a defender was within five yards of him. Yes, he's faster than the entire defense... and considering it's a WAC team, he better be.
hats off, the cat, for being the lone human being in creation trying to spin bush's performance last night. he goes and shatters the school's all-purpose yardage record in a single game by 200 yards (!) and you want us to think it was all leinart; the OL; the competition...

btw, you should ask the fresno state defender who went flying into the stands after bush stopped dead in his tracks and juked right as if someone had pressed the R1 button if he whiffed because he was worried about leinart or getting blown away by the great OL or whatever spin you want to try and put on it.

is it asking too much for us to sit back and appreciate bush's performance, recognizing that we're in the company of one of college football's most explosive and exciting players, without having to weakly try and poke holes in it? whether he's a texan or not, what he did last night was, simply, amazing.

There are just a lot of us who are concerned that he won't be an everydown back in the NFL.
he touched the ball 34 times last night. i just don't think it's going to be a big concern. guy returns punts and we're worried?

I'd love to see the Texans address first and foremost THE problem that has been THE problem from the moment they stepped onto the field in 2002...
wait, wait - i'm really good at this: the pass rush? oh, no. wait - coaching? no, no - that's not it - the complete and utter lack of playmakers on both sides of the ball? no, it would have to be carr's seemingly inate ability to consistently make poor decisions, whine about about it and regress in all phases of his game....

there isn't A problem... there are A LOT of problems. and frankly, the OL ranks below quite a few of them, IMO. i would put my concern with carr, the lack of a pass rush and the absence of playmakers among our front 7 on D ahead of the OL, in terms of problems. the OL can be fixed much easier than those three items.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Ki-Jana Carter
well of course they better do their homework. but ki-jana carter has nothing to do with reggie bush. nothing. it's an empty thought. for every player you champion the texans drafting, there are at least five from drafts past that have busted. and they, like carter, would have no bearing on the player being selected.

[VesceySux]

But that is one thing about drafting a running back so high. Those guys can give you a great a great 4-5 years than fade away... If the Texans were closer to contending I'd go with Bush...

Totally agree with you on this part. (Not on the Leinart selection, though.)

[MadMax]

wait, wait - i'm really good at this: the pass rush? oh, no. wait - coaching? no, no - that's not it - the complete and utter lack of playmakers on both sides of the ball? no, it would have to be carr's seemingly inate ability to consistently make poor decisions, whine about about it and regress in all phases of his game....

there isn't A problem... there are A LOT of problems. and frankly, the OL ranks below quite a few of them, IMO. i would put my concern with carr, the lack of a pass rush and the absence of playmakers among our front 7 on D ahead of the OL, in terms of problems. the OL can be fixed much easier than those three items.
.

i totally disagree. lack of playmakers?? how would you even know?? the guy has minimal time to make a throw. carr threw for over 3,500 yards last seaon. he improved every season before coming into this one. davis has shown himself to be reliable RB. and freaking Andre Johnson isn't a playmaker?? the guy's numbers rival the very greatest who have ever played the game at the same relative point in their careers.

i agree the defensive line is a problem. no argument.

and i'm not saying the OL isn't "fixable." i'm saying it's been a problem since the very first game. however easily fixable it may be...it hasn't been fixed. and we've now shell-shocked the hell out of our QB and stunted the development of our offense in part, because of it. they're not the ONLY problem. but they're the BIGGEST problem in my opinion. it's the problem that, as a paying fan, i want to see addressed first and foremost. there's risk with every draft pick to be sure...but if the thought is there's an offensive lineman good enough this season to justify using a top 5 pick on, then that's what I want the Texans to spend that pick on.

[gucci888]

there isn't A problem... there are A LOT of problems. and frankly, the OL ranks below quite a few of them, IMO. i would put my concern with carr, the lack of a pass rush and the absence of playmakers among our front 7 on D ahead of the OL, in terms of problems. the OL can be fixed much easier than those three items.

I agree that we have a lot of problems, but saying the OL is not the most pressing problem is plain wrong. There is a reason why Carr is on his way to being sacked the most in the history of the game, there is a reason why we cannot complete passes. Yes, a lot of that has to do with Carr but it also has to do with Carr only having 2 seconds to work in the pocket.

If an OL can be fixed so easily, why haven we done it? The OL has been the Texans #1 problem since our first game as a franchise. Until we have a solid OL, we won't see any success on the offensive side of the field. The OL should be and will most likely be the most focused area this summer, guaranteed.


well of course they better do their homework. but ki-jana carter has nothing to do with reggie bush. nothing. it's an empty thought. for every player you champion the texans drafting, there are at least five from drafts past that have busted. and they, like carter, would have no bearing on the player being selected.

I think they're just saying that having HUGE success in college doesn't necessarily mean the same for the NFL. Of course there will always be busts, but there have been a lot of players who were hands down the best in college, but never amounted to anything on the next level (Couch, Carter, Dayne, etc..) I don't like using that argument because you can't go into a draft worrying about who's gonna be a bust, because you never know.

[reggietodd]

After watching the game today, I'm starting to lean in that direction as well. You'll never see another running back like this for many many years.

Besides this draft is ripe with O-Line players so I'm sure we can get some decent ones down the line.

I think that is the main problems with the arguments against bush by those on this board. Its just simply that they just haven't seen him play that much and are just looking at his stats. If you watched that game last night and didn't want to draft Bush, then I think your mind is probably changed, unless you are just too hard-headed to admit it... (rm95).

[The Cat]

You wouldn't want to draft Bush and have him rot on the bench behind 1000 yard rusher Tony Hollings either.

I didn't know Hollings had retired. Thanks for that insight.

[stro4swift]

Reggie Bush would definitly help this team to be back on track!

[moestavern19]

I didn't know Hollings had retired. Thanks for that insight.


Didn't say he did, so nice try.


You may as well just pay me that 100 right now though and give up hope.

[The Cat]

Didn't say he did, so nice try.


You may as well just pay me that 100 right now though and give up hope.

Some would've said the same ("give up hope") about the career of Thomas Jones.

All about the situation.

[Luckyazn]

L - 11 Sun, Nov 20 Kansas City
W - 12 Sun, Nov 27 St. Louis
W - 13 Sun, Dec 4 at Baltimore
L - 14 Sun, Dec 11 at Tennessee
W - 15 Sun, Dec 18 Arizona
L - 16 Sat, Dec 24 Jacksonville
W - 17 Sun, Jan 1 at San Francisco

5-11


lol if you think we can beat St. Louis after what happen to us tonite vs KC. We can't stop GOOD OFFENSIVE TEAMS.
How are we going to beat Balti if we can't even score 3pts vs their D.
Did you see what Arizona did to St. Louis today?
San Fran game will be for the #1 pick and since we got that far with 1 win .......... LOCK UP THE #1 PICK! (BUSH!)

1-16 2005 Texans

[reggietodd]

I went to the game tonight and stayed for the whole thing. Thankfully I have Larry Johnson on my fantasy team so it wasn't so bad.

Everyone in the stands was literally laughing at this team and at David Carr. All we did on offense was throw out routes just to play it safe. It was disgusting. We have problems EVERYWHERE except for on special teams, I will say though that I realized tonight that our o-line isn't our biggest problem. We only allowed one sack and it was more of a coverage sack than anything. I'm pretty sure the "who will we draft" debate is dead, even the guys on 610 were saying it after the game. Reggie Bush is a no brainer at this point. I'd say Leinart is a close second after what I just witnessed David Carr do tonight. 3...2...1.... (waiting on The Cat to somehow spin this KC loss on the O-line)

[VesceySux]

Don't get too comfortable with the O-line. KC's defense sucks.
- T24th - Sacks
- 27th - Interceptions
- 25th - Total yards allowed

(But, of course, the Texans are even worse.)

[reggietodd]

Don't get too comfortable with the O-line. KC's defense sucks.)

lol tha makes it even worse then, we should have been able to move the ball if their defense suks.

[jopatmc]

Look, they are masking the problems in the offensive line with the short drops and quick outs. That line is swiss cheese in a regular 5 or 7 step drop back and throw.

We still need a stud LT. Trade the #1 pick for the #3-#5 and an additional first rounder. Draft a couple stud offensive lineman to go with Pitts and Mckinney and then go after some linebackers for the defense.

[meh]

I can't believe the number of people on the Reggie Bush bandwagon. First of all, do you realize that Bush will have the Texans OL blocking for him in the NFL? That's like having Bush running behind the Kansas OL agains the UT defense. The guy could very well get killed.

In addition, how much can Bush help this team, even assuming he'll be solid? We still can't pass protect. Carr still can't seem to make passes longer than 6 yards. Our defense still gets shreaded to pieces. Barry Sanders couldn't lead the Lions anywhere, and he had a more talented Detroit team around him than the Texans do around DD.

The Texans simply need a huge upgrade in talent. I don't believe we have to get a OL in round 1. I'd be fine with trying to field a great defense first, and going for offense next year. Either way, trading down for more picks seems like the logical way to go. Of course, if we do stay at 1 or 2(assuming we continue to suck), the only player I'll be fine with is Leinart. This is for the same reason the Bengals drafted Palmer. A QB simply affects the game much more than a RB. So if the Texans are going to risk it, they might as well aim for a Pro-Bowl QB rather than a Pro-Bowl RB.

[couple of d's]

i wasnt sure why everyone was jockin reggie bush either, but after watchin last nights game i know why. damn that guy is a stud. i would love the texans to draft him, it wanst all his o-line that guy makes people miss and runs right past people.

[couple of d's]

forgot to mention darnell bing. that guy can play too. anyone have any idea when he is supposed to be drafted?

[moestavern19]

forgot to mention darnell bing. that guy can play too. anyone have any idea when he is supposed to be drafted?

I've seen him going 1st round at least in most early mocks right now. Ranging from early 10 range to late 20s.

Sure would be nice if the Raiders could draft him.

[VesceySux]

It's going to be damn funny when Reggie Bush decides to go back to school rather than be drafted by the Texans (or worse, pulls an "Eli Manning/John Elway"). Did I mention that D'Brickashaw is a senior? :)

[The Real Shady]

It's going to be damn funny when Reggie Bush decides to go back to school rather than be drafted by the Texans (or worse, pulls an "Eli Manning/John Elway"). Did I mention that D'Brickashaw is a senior? :)

Chris Mortenson has already said that Bush is looking at agents so I think it's 100% that he's coming out. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls an Eli and doesn't want to go to the Texans though.

[Ric]

i totally disagree. lack of playmakers?? how would you even know?? the guy has minimal time to make a throw. carr threw for over 3,500 yards last seaon. he improved every season before coming into this one. davis has shown himself to be reliable RB. and freaking Andre Johnson isn't a playmaker?? the guy's numbers rival the very greatest who have ever played the game at the same relative point in their careers.
playmakers who don’t ever seem to make plays. perfect. and the OL is not the reason, either. I’m almost growing sick of hearing it. carr had all day last night… and long before the dolts on ESPN noticed, it was pretty obvious he was locking in on his receivers within two steps of his drop back. I watched every one of his pass attempts in slow-mo, and it was universal. that’s a problem. he overthrows, he gets his ball tipped at the LOS. I’ve always been on the carr bandwagon. not anymore. he needs to go, too.

davis has been reliable, but he’s not a playmaker. the difference in him and LJ last night should have been a stark wake-up call as to just how pedestrian DD is. getting caught at the goal line on his screen pass… LJ wouldn’t have been caught. DD makes bad reads in traffic, lacks vision and doesn’t have gamebreaking speed.

meanwhile, his meltdown last night aside, AJ is certainly a keeper, but I worry that he doesn’t get separation enough and can be too easily neutralized. great WRs get open, they make plays. he’s not great. but obviously has loads of potential.

OL is the BIGGEST problem in my opinion.
the OL played a nearly flawless game last night; carr had time; davis had lanes… and the playmakers generated 10 offensive points. the OL is a problem, but an upgrade in talent isn’t going to make carr better, davis better….

I agree that we have a lot of problems, but saying the OL is not the most pressing problem is plain wrong. There is a reason why Carr is on his way to being sacked the most in the history of the game, there is a reason why we cannot complete passes. Yes, a lot of that has to do with Carr but it also has to do with Carr only having 2 seconds to work in the pocket.
you saw last night – the OL isn’t the only problem. it was terrific last night and the team generated 10 offensive points. there were several times when carr had PLENTY of time to throw but he panicked and ran. he locked in on receivers within two steps of his drops. again, it is A problem, but d’brick doesn’t solve the many elements contributing to its poor play.

If an OL can be fixed so easily, why haven we done it? The OL has been the Texans #1 problem since our first game as a franchise. Until we have a solid OL, we won't see any success on the offensive side of the field.
you’re asking why the regime that traded five picks for babin and buchannon hasn’t fixed the problem? do we need to draw you a roadmap? they’re morons.

the OL was solid last night and the results were about the same as usual. the problems go deeper – MUCH deeper – than a lack of talent on the OL.

First of all, do you realize that Bush will have the Texans OL blocking for him in the NFL?
yep, the same “awful” line that’s helped a non-starter in college post back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons.

In addition, how much can Bush help this team, even assuming he'll be solid? We still can't pass protect. Carr still can't seem to make passes longer than 6 yards. Our defense still gets shreaded to pieces. Barry Sanders couldn't lead the Lions anywhere, and he had a more talented Detroit team around him than the Texans do around DD.
detroit went to an NFC championship game with sanders and to the playoffs three times in 10 years, posting five winning seasons – everyone assumes those teams were awful, but they really weren’t. and the reason they were good was sanders. but anyone who watched DD get caught from behind on his screen pass last night, or how elusive LJ was comparatively, can’t possibly still be convinced DD is the answer to anything.

[DVauthrin]

the OL played a nearly flawless game last night; carr had time; davis had lanes… and the playmakers generated 10 offensive points. the OL is a problem, but an upgrade in talent isn’t going to make carr better, davis better….


you saw last night – the OL isn’t the only problem. it was terrific last night and the team generated 10 offensive points. there were several times when carr had PLENTY of time to throw but he panicked and ran. he locked in on receivers within two steps of his drops. again, it is A problem, but d’brick doesn’t solve the many elements contributing to its poor play.


you’re asking why the regime that traded five picks for babin and buchannon hasn’t fixed the problem? do we need to draw you a roadmap? they’re morons.

the OL was solid last night and the results were about the same as usual. the problems go deeper – MUCH deeper – than a lack of talent on the OL.


yep, the same “awful” line that’s helped a non-starter in college post back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons.




Let's be fair for a second. The texans have abandoned allowing "playmakers" to make plays this season. 5 yard outs are not going to produce gamebreaking results 9 out of 10 times. They never once took any real shot down the field because the O-Line is so bad that they stuck to the 3 step drop and get the ball out ASAP mentality. Furthermore, about Carr staring down receivers last night, with the kind of gameplan the texans were utilizing, it was to be expected. It's not like the safeties of the opposing team or even the LB's had to worry about the ball ever coming their way. Plus with the kind of routes the texan receivers were running, the ball has to be out fast and that doesn't give Carr time to look off. The texans have tried 24 passes ALL YEAR down the middle of the field and deep.

I will agree the failure on offense is a team effort. But right now David Carr has 2 real "threats" to pass the ball to every play. Davis and Johnson. There is no TE who can catch the ball, plus the TE's have to stay in to max protect. Jabar Gaffney would be a 4th WR on a good team and he is the 2nd WR here. Then there are other times where Davis has to stay in to help block and that limits Carr's options even more.

In comparison look at KC. They have one of the best OL's in football. They also have a TE who provides an excellent safety blanket every play. They don't have a great WR, but the WR's they do have have time to get open because Trent Green can get all day in the pocket on a normal 5 or 7 step drop. In fact, the main difference between their offense and Houston's is they have an OL that allows the players they have to be successful.

With all this said, I'm on board with taking either Bush or Ferguson. They need both O-Line help and more weapons for any QB, Carr or otherwise. I also think the two work hand in hand. Sometimes Carr takes sacks he shouldn't because the lack of threats on offense leads to "coverage sacks."

They also need a TE who can catch the ball as a safety valve desperately. If they draft Bush and get a guy like a Marcus Pollard type, that gives Carr or any quarterback a reasonable amount of talent to play with.

[gucci888]

the OL played a nearly flawless game last night; carr had time; davis had lanes… and the playmakers generated 10 offensive points. the OL is a problem, but an upgrade in talent isn’t going to make carr better, davis better….


you saw last night – the OL isn’t the only problem. it was terrific last night and the team generated 10 offensive points. there were several times when carr had PLENTY of time to throw but he panicked and ran. he locked in on receivers within two steps of his drops. again, it is A problem, but d’brick doesn’t solve the many elements contributing to its poor play.


So you are basing this on 1 game? Anybody that watches Texans football will know that the OL is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problem.

You think Carr wants to only take a 2-3 step drop? This was clearly designed by the coaches because of the lack of time Carr has in the pocket. If you are killing the league in the # of sacks you take with a 4-5 step drop, you change what you are doing. This clearly worked since Carr was only sacked once, but that doesn't mean it's a good tactic. QBs need much more time in the pocket to make their reads and make a pass.

Yes, I'll agree that the OL played much better lastnight. But I'm not going to give them contract extensions just because of 1 game. Carr is on his way to a record sacked season, he must take some of the blame, but you need good protection if you want to be successful.

BTW, the only touchdown the generated was on a short field because of an interception. I'm not trying to put down the offense, but it's not like we actually moved the ball 60-80 yards, it was more like 30.

[Ric]

BTW, the only touchdown the generated was on a short field because of an interception. I'm not trying to put down the offense, but it's not like we actually moved the ball 60-80 yards, it was more like 30.
i thought it was a punt return, but, yeah - i know. the offense is terrible and that's not based on one game. it's based on it and carr having been on a downward slide since midseason last year.

we've reached a point where who's to blame is no longer relevant. what is relevant is that carr's been ruined; he's a mess. his throws last night were terrible, missing open guys, getting balls knocked down at the LOS... it was an awful performance. but arguing who's responsible is like trying to figure out how the dog got rabbies. what's the point? you still have to take it out back and put it out of its misery.

you can rebuild the OL with five jonathan ogden's... if your QB is a trembling shell who can't complete even routine passes; if your running back contiually runs into defenders (or his own players); if your WRs can't get even a moment's separation; if you have no TE as a safety valve; if your coaches can't design a gameplan to take advantage of even a lone strength among your talent pool.... one good OL doesn't undo any of that. it's a failure across the board in ever facet of the offensive game. going into the draft thinking all you need in an OL is like putting a fresh coat of paint on a crackhouse.

[gucci888]

i thought it was a punt return, but, yeah - i know. the offense is terrible and that's not based on one game. it's based on it and carr having been on a downward slide since midseason last year.

we've reached a point where who's to blame is no longer relevant. what is relevant is that carr's been ruined; he's a mess. his throws last night were terrible, missing open guys, getting balls knocked down at the LOS... it was an awful performance. but arguing who's responsible is like trying to figure out how the dog got rabbies. what's the point? you still have to take it out back and put it out of its misery.

You're right, Carr has been a mess as of late, I guess he caught a good case of Ramseyitis. But even though the OL did a good job of not giving up more than 1 sack, their DL got a lot of penetration that rushed a lot of things. And let's face it, when you've been sacked as many times as Carr has, you're gonna start looking out for yourself.

you can rebuild the OL with five jonathan ogden's... if your QB is a trembling shell who can't complete even routine passes; if your running back contiually runs into defenders (or his own players); if your WRs can't get even a moment's separation; if you have no TE as a safety valve; if your coaches can't design a gameplan to take advantage of even a lone strength among your talent pool.... one good OL doesn't undo any of that. it's a failure across the board in ever facet of the offensive game. going into the draft thinking all you need in an OL is like putting a fresh coat of paint on a crackhouse.

I agree with most of your post, but a lot of the things you mentioned (WRs, TE, No good gameplan) has a lot to do with the OL, there isn't enough time for those things to happen. I'm not saying we should only concentrate on the OL because like you said, we have a lot of holes, but the OL is the backbone of the Offense. If you don't have a good OL, it doesn't matter if you have Tom Brady or Payton Manning back there.

Either way, I guess the point is moot, we have a ton of holes on this team and I'm sure you'll agree that not one single player will be able to turn us into
the team we want the Texans to be.

I like your analogy, but for me...it's like having a broken window and all the heat is coming in, and instead of fixing the window, you buy a better a air conditioner.

[jopatmc]

Larry Johnson's comments following the game last night were very interesting to me. When asked what his 211 yards said his reply was, "It says a lot of things....................it says that I run behind the best offensive line in football"

Wonder what Dominick would say about his line?

Larry Johnson piled up 211 yards last night. If him and Dominick trade places the stats are reversed. Johnson is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he was one step away from going to prison about a year and a half ago. Between him and Priest Holmes, the Chiefs have rushed for over 1200 yards this season. Remember Priest Holmes??? He was Ricky Williams' sidekick at Texas. LJ was a middle to bottom of the first round draft pick. I don't think Priest even went in the first round. If so, it was late. The constant on that team is the offensive line. The constant on all great teams is the line play. Detroit had Barry running all over the place for years. But they couldn't pass protect to save their life and they weren't really that good at giving Barry lanes to run in. Barry was a superstar. But they never won anything because they didn't have good line play. The games they won was because of Herculian efforts by Barry. They became a decent team but never a real good team. All Barry's talent...........wasted on mediocrity.

Now, compare Barry's career to Emmett Smith's career. Who was the better running back? There shouldn't even be a debate. Barry was hands down better than Emmett. Put Barry behind that Dallas line and he wins 4 to 6 Super Bowls. Put Emmett running behind Detroit's line, and he retires injured with about 8000 yards. And Emmett was a good player. But what made those Dallas teams great was those monstas up front. You could put Troy, Emmett, and Irvin all behind the Detroit line and all you get is a couple playoff appearances, not 3 Super Bowl rings.

Winning football games starts up front with the offensive and defensive lines. You gotta have difference makers at the grunt positions and then go find skill players. Just look at Terrence Mathis. A good, skill player drafted in what, the 3rd round.......or was it the 5th round???? Tom Brady----6th round. Joe Montana----3rd round. Yeah, you can find plenty of high first round picks that were QBs, RBs, and WRs. But the teams that win games and go to the playoffs and win super bowls have good line play. That is the constant.

This offseason, our offensive line has to be built. There has to be a drastic change in our line going into 2006-07. Otherwise, if we just draft Bush and keep fooling with mediocre lineman, we'll become the Detroit Lions of the 21st century, always competing but never winning anything of substance, having to fight and scratch our way to 8-10 wins every season and barely slip into the playoffs if we make it.

That ain't what McNair invested a gazillion dollars to do. He wants to win rings. We gotta get the muscle up front.

[msn]

going into the draft thinking all you need in an OL is like putting a fresh coat of paint on a crackhouse.
I have to defer to your knowledge over mine, but I don't like this analogy--the O-Line is far more foundational than paint on a house. I don't think the Texans should think only o-line, but I certainly hope they think o-line first.

[Vengeance]

Larry Johnson's comments following the game last night were very interesting to me. When asked what his 211 yards said his reply was, "It says a lot of things....................it says that I run behind the best offensive line in football"

Wonder what Dominick would say about his line?

Larry Johnson piled up 211 yards last night. If him and Dominick trade places the stats are reversed.

Dominick Davis isn't in Johnson's league. Davis is a decent NFL back, but Larry Johnson has more talent than Davis, and could be a top 5 NFL back if he started. Priest Holmes was undrafted if I'm not mistaken, but he's come on to be a GREAT NFL running back after sitting behind one of the best college backs ever. Certainly some of that is KC's great offensive line, but there are no great running backs who don't owe something to their OLs. But don't throw individual talent out the window. Priest Holmes is hugely talented, as is Larry Johnson. On the Texans, they'd both beat out Dominick Davis handily.

[JamesC]

Dominick Davis isn't in Johnson's league. Davis is a decent NFL back, but Larry Johnson has more talent than Davis, and could be a top 5 NFL back if he started. Priest Holmes was undrafted if I'm not mistaken, but he's come on to be a GREAT NFL running back after sitting behind one of the best college backs ever. Certainly some of that is KC's great offensive line, but there are no great running backs who don't owe something to their OLs. But don't throw individual talent out the window. Priest Holmes is hugely talented, as is Larry Johnson. On the Texans, they'd both beat out Dominick Davis handily.


Very good points. DD is at best a back up running back.

[jopatmc]

Very good points. DD is at best a back up running back.


A backup running back at best who has popped the 1000 yard mark in his first 2 seasons and has a chance to bust it again even after missing some time. I guess that means that our OL is quite accomplished, since a backup running back at best is busting it for 1000 yards.

Absurd.

Bush looks to be a better back, but what's he gonna add? Is he gonna run for 2000 yards behind this OL because he is a top notch starter compared to our poor backup tailback?

Come on man. Get real. With Bush on this team, we MAY have one more victory and a couple hundred more rushing yards. That's it. Look at our margin of defeat. What do defenses do to us? They pack it in the box and force us to throw it because they know we can't pass protect. Is Bush gonna run for 2000 against 7 in the box???

This is the NFL, where everyone is fast. Bush faces one, maybe two players a week who are NFL worthy and have NFL speed.

We need pass protectors!!!

[swilkins]

lol if you think we can beat St. Louis after what happen to us tonite vs KC. We can't stop GOOD OFFENSIVE TEAMS.
How are we going to beat Balti if we can't even score 3pts vs their D.
Did you see what Arizona did to St. Louis today?
San Fran game will be for the #1 pick and since we got that far with 1 win .......... LOCK UP THE #1 PICK! (BUSH!)

1-16 2005 Texans

My prediction is for fun. I stand behind it. You can beat me up, but if I'm right, I'm hunting you down. ;)

[Vengeance]

I'm not saying that they need to draft Reggie Bush, or that they'll gain much by drafting another running back, I'm just saying that there is something to individual talent of running backs, and that Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson are just better than Davis. Davis is an average NFL running back. Maybe a bit above average, but talent-wise, he's just not in the same league as those guys.

[JamesC]

A backup running back at best who has popped the 1000 yard mark in his first 2 seasons and has a chance to bust it again even after missing some time. I guess that means that our OL is quite accomplished, since a backup running back at best is busting it for 1000 yards.

Absurd.




I'm not saying that they need to draft Reggie Bush, or that they'll gain much by drafting another running back, I'm just saying that there is something to individual talent of running backs, and that Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson are just better than Davis. Davis is an average NFL running back. Maybe a bit above average, but talent-wise, he's just not in the same league as those guys.


Vengeance said it about as well as I could, but thats how I feel about Davis.

[jopatmc]

James,

Average to a bit above average is a lot different than saying backup at best.

I agree with Vengeance. Dominick is average to a little above average. He's adequate. But put him on the Chiefs and he becomes a little bit better and put Larry Johnson on the Texans and he becomes a little worse and then it is harder to distinguish the differences between them.

I still stick with my point. You gotta have the beef up front for an offense to be balanced and productive and be able to keep the defense on their heels. I don't care how good the back is, if you can't pass protect, then the defense can key on the run and shut down the offense. It's that simple.

By the way, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard a running back in college is a once in a lifetime player...........well, I'd have a very high tax bill. Billy Sims, Ki-jana Carter, Bo Jackson, Marcus Dupree, Lawrence Phillips, Maurice Clarett, Blair Thomas, Rashaan Salam, Herschel Walker, Charles White, Ricky Williams, Cedric Benson.................all had the "player of a lifetime" tag placed on them. None of them had or have had outstanding careers. Most are flat out busts. Some were decimated with injuries and their career was extremely short. Some are head cases. In all cases, they were not difference makers for their teams after being touted as the "savior".

Running backs......because of the nature of their position are more susceptible to injury and shorter careers and more likely to be busts because their success is partially due to the quality of the lineman blocking for them. Bush is playing on the #1 rated team in the nation, with a Heisman Trophy winning QB and great blockers in front of him. He may indeed be the next Walter Payton, but it's too hard to tell and with our team in the condition it is, he could wind up like Payton and be fortunate to get to the Super Bowl because of the lack of line play. Payton, arguably the greatest RB of all time, had to wait until the Bears accumulated arguable the greatest defense of all time, in order to make it to the big game and win one. Goodness, after watching Adrian Peterson just burn up the gridiron last year as a freshman, I was ready to proclaim him a "savior" and hope that the Texans could get him. He may turn out to be a great one also. Or the next great back may come out of the sixth round of the draft. Peterson, after a fantastic year last year, all of a sudden looks quite human, with a few injuries, and lower quality talent surrounding him.

One thing is for sure. Bush will NOT make this a playoff caliber team much less a Super Bowl caliber team. That will only happen when the play in the trenches improves significantly.

We should invest our draft in lineman. You ain't gonna find too much quality line help in free agency. We had a chance to get Pace. It didn't work. That will be the best tackle you see on the semi-open market in a long time and he wasn't really even free.

Look around the league and count how many quality blind side tackles there are that were drafted outside of the first round.

[Dubious]

Busts and injuries and Larry Allen!

For a team with needs all over the field trading one glamour pick for mutiple picks is the best stategy to get better quickly. Draft evaluation is science and luck, some of the surest thing picks never make it and some 6th round gambles turn in to all-pro's. You can hedge your bets by getting as many good picks as you can and letting the cream rise, especially if we are talking multiple picks in the 3rd and fourth round where the bulk of starters in the league are found. Now there will never be another Herschel Walker bonanza again but Teams coveting Bush and Leinert could very well offer their first and an extra third or even another first the following year.

I read a post over on Houstonprofootball illustrating that most of the elite left tackles in the league are high first rounders so the new GM will have to determine if Pitts can be adequate. If not then that's where you have to go because other than QB it is the most important position on the field and the easiest way to make a big impact in your teams fortunes. That being said it's still no slam dunk to draft, just look at Robert Gallery.

In investing I know one of the best ways to make money is to capitalize on other people's exuberence, let the hype jack up the price on something and sell before the market changes or realizes something is overvalued. It could be that we can exploit the Reggie Bush hype for a good solid gain.

(Ask yourself What Would Jimmy Do?)

[DKAIII]

Larry Johnson's comments following the game last night were very interesting to me. When asked what his 211 yards said his reply was, "It says a lot of things....................it says that I run behind the best offensive line in football"

Wonder what Dominick would say about his line?

Larry Johnson piled up 211 yards last night. If him and Dominick trade places the stats are reversed. Johnson is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he was one step away from going to prison about a year and a half ago. Between him and Priest Holmes, the Chiefs have rushed for over 1200 yards this season. Remember Priest Holmes??? He was Ricky Williams' sidekick at Texas. LJ was a middle to bottom of the first round draft pick. I don't think Priest even went in the first round. If so, it was late. The constant on that team is the offensive line. The constant on all great teams is the line play. Detroit had Barry running all over the place for years. But they couldn't pass protect to save their life and they weren't really that good at giving Barry lanes to run in. Barry was a superstar. But they never won anything because they didn't have good line play. The games they won was because of Herculian efforts by Barry. They became a decent team but never a real good team. All Barry's talent...........wasted on mediocrity.

Now, compare Barry's career to Emmett Smith's career. Who was the better running back? There shouldn't even be a debate. Barry was hands down better than Emmett. Put Barry behind that Dallas line and he wins 4 to 6 Super Bowls. Put Emmett running behind Detroit's line, and he retires injured with about 8000 yards. And Emmett was a good player. But what made those Dallas teams great was those monstas up front. You could put Troy, Emmett, and Irvin all behind the Detroit line and all you get is a couple playoff appearances, not 3 Super Bowl rings.

Winning football games starts up front with the offensive and defensive lines. You gotta have difference makers at the grunt positions and then go find skill players. Just look at Terrence Mathis. A good, skill player drafted in what, the 3rd round.......or was it the 5th round???? Tom Brady----6th round. Joe Montana----3rd round. Yeah, you can find plenty of high first round picks that were QBs, RBs, and WRs. But the teams that win games and go to the playoffs and win super bowls have good line play. That is the constant.

This offseason, our offensive line has to be built. There has to be a drastic change in our line going into 2006-07. Otherwise, if we just draft Bush and keep fooling with mediocre lineman, we'll become the Detroit Lions of the 21st century, always competing but never winning anything of substance, having to fight and scratch our way to 8-10 wins every season and barely slip into the playoffs if we make it.

That ain't what McNair invested a gazillion dollars to do. He wants to win rings. We gotta get the muscle up front.

I can't believe that anyone who watches the Texans on an even casual basis would disagree that the O-Line is in need of serious upgrades, but my contention is that we don't have to spend a first round pick to accomplish that. You bring up the great Dallas Cowboy teams of the 90's, & their lines are made up of tremendous players such as Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Erik Williams, Mark Stepnoski, & Mark Tuinei.

Larry Allen-2nd round pick
Nate Newton-Undrafted
Erik Williams-3rd round
Stepnoski-3rd round
Tuinei-Undrafted

Aikman, Smith, & Irvin were all first rounders.

Granted, it's just a difference of opinion regarding talent acquisition, but I feel that you have to have difference makers at the skills positions & then go find the grunts.

If we continue along at our current pace, we are going to have the first pick in the second round, the first in the third, and another top five in the third thanks to New Orleans. This appears to be a deep draft at the line positions, but not so much with the athletes.

I asked earlier, maybe no one saw it or knows, but how did Ferguson do against Va. Tech?

[Ric]

Dominick is average to a little above average. He's adequate. But put him on the Chiefs and he becomes a little bit better and put Larry Johnson on the Texans and he becomes a little worse and then it is harder to distinguish the differences between them.
I disagree. LJ is elusive, has a burst of speed, reads lanes properly… DD possesses none of those skills. the big difference in the two in this: DD gets caught from behind on his screen pass; LJ wouldn’t. DD is not, and never will be a gamebreaker.

By the way, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard a running back in college is a once in a lifetime player…
replace “running back” with quarterback… wide receiver… left tackle… defensive end… linebacker… corner back…

draft history is filled with busts at all positions.

One thing is for sure. Bush will NOT make this a playoff caliber team much less a Super Bowl caliber team.
neither will a better OL; not when you have a mediocre QB, a pedestrian running back; WRs who can’t get open and a defense devoid of playmakers that can’t stop anyone to save their lives.

they need help everywhere; easiest way to get that ball rolling is a) jettison casserly and the coaching staff; b) draft the best player available, regardless of position.

[jopatmc]

I can't believe that anyone who watches the Texans on an even casual basis would disagree that the O-Line is in need of serious upgrades, but my contention is that we don't have to spend a first round pick to accomplish that. You bring up the great Dallas Cowboy teams of the 90's, & their lines are made up of tremendous players such as Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Erik Williams, Mark Stepnoski, & Mark Tuinei.

Larry Allen-2nd round pick
Nate Newton-Undrafted
Erik Williams-3rd round
Stepnoski-3rd round
Tuinei-Undrafted

Aikman, Smith, & Irvin were all first rounders.

Granted, it's just a difference of opinion regarding talent acquisition, but I feel that you have to have difference makers at the skills positions & then go find the grunts.

If we continue along at our current pace, we are going to have the first pick in the second round, the first in the third, and another top five in the third thanks to New Orleans. This appears to be a deep draft at the line positions, but not so much with the athletes.

I asked earlier, maybe no one saw it or knows, but how did Ferguson do against Va. Tech?

Yeah, so bring in JJ and the OL coach on those teams and give him the keys then. Obviously, JJ knows the talent to know how to draft a winner.

[DKAIII]

Yeah, so bring in JJ and the OL coach on those teams and give him the keys then. Obviously, JJ knows the talent to know how to draft a winner.

I'd be O.K with that.

[Luckyazn]

I can't believe that anyone who watches the Texans on an even casual basis would disagree that the O-Line is in need of serious upgrades, but my contention is that we don't have to spend a first round pick to accomplish that. You bring up the great Dallas Cowboy teams of the 90's, & their lines are made up of tremendous players such as Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Erik Williams, Mark Stepnoski, & Mark Tuinei.

Larry Allen-2nd round pick
Nate Newton-Undrafted
Erik Williams-3rd round
Stepnoski-3rd round
Tuinei-Undrafted

Aikman, Smith, & Irvin were all first rounders.

Granted, it's just a difference of opinion regarding talent acquisition, but I feel that you have to have difference makers at the skills positions & then go find the grunts.

If we continue along at our current pace, we are going to have the first pick in the second round, the first in the third, and another top five in the third thanks to New Orleans. This appears to be a deep draft at the line positions, but not so much with the athletes.

I asked earlier, maybe no one saw it or knows, but how did Ferguson do against Va. Tech?

LOOK! WE ALL KNOW THE OLINE IS THE PROBLEM! but I would rather DRAFT BUSH and fix the OLINE any other way like DAKIII said you dont need to fix the line with the top pick. ALOT of you guys who's oppose to drafting Bush thinks that WE PLAN or WANT TO KEEP THE SAME OLINE with Bush on the team. We know the problem is the OLINE, but I dont think you can pass up a player like BUSH (and I dont mean putting him behind this OLINE also) you draft him and fix the OLINE also.

Do you guys really think just drafting D'BRICK that we'll be a PLAYOFF team also? Do you really think putting D'Brick at LT that Carr wont be sack and everything would be fine also? NO!

Is like passing up LT and getting Robert Gallery who do you think the Raider would prefer to have?

THE POINT IS GET BUSH! and FIX THE OLINE ALSO! not draft Bush and leave the OLINE alone ... (if the Texans ended up with lets say the #6-10 instead then you would get the BEST PLAYER avaible or then you'll get the next best OL but with a #1-2 pick YOU HAVE TO TAKE BUSH!)