View Full Version : Taveras voted Rookie of the Year runner-up
Willy didn't get rookie of the Year, Ryan Howard got it.
http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051107&content_id=1265229&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou
Uprising
11-07-2005, 01:35 PM
damn.
oh well.
Howyalikemenow
11-07-2005, 01:46 PM
That's bullsh*t. :mad:
Saint Louis
11-07-2005, 02:00 PM
Willy didn't get rookie of the Year, Ryan Howard got it.
http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051107&content_id=1265229&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou
East Coast bias
NJRocket
11-07-2005, 02:10 PM
That is the biggest crock of sh*t!
I'm pretty surprised there was so much hype surrounding Taveras in the national media. He really wasn't good enough to merit consideration for ROY. His biggest advantage was his playing time vs. the other serious candidates. Both Francour and Howard played in less than 100 games. But they were vastly superior hitters. Even Taveras' defense, which is great but not top shelf, doesn't make up for his absolutely abysmal offensive showing.
magnetik
11-07-2005, 02:24 PM
I'm pretty surprised there was so much hype surrounding Taveras in the national media. He really wasn't good enough to merit consideration for ROY. His biggest advantage was his playing time vs. the other serious candidates. Both Francour and Howard played in less than 100 games. But they were vastly superior hitters. Even Taveras' defense, which is great but not top shelf, doesn't make up for his absolutely abysmal offensive showing.
don't you think "abysmal" is stretching it a little?
don't you think "abysmal" is stretching it a little?
I think it was far from "abysmal" myself, but dude's going to have to learn to hit the ball into the outfield if he wants to get on base in the future--I don't foresee 70 infield hits every year, especially when he gets into his 30's.
Austin70
11-07-2005, 02:27 PM
East Coast BS, if Willy was a Phillie he would be ROY.
wrath_of_khan
11-07-2005, 02:37 PM
Wow, that's crap.
don't get me wrong -- Howard is going to be a star, and he was clutch down the stretch.
But he only played in 88 games! That's just over half the season.
That's like giving Ausmus the Silver Slugger award based on the fact he hit .300 in the second half.
(OK, not quite, but you get the picture.)
I just think that you've got to play way more than 88 games to get consideration for a full-season award. Give Howard "Rookie of the Month" awards from July-October instead ...
desihooper
11-07-2005, 02:37 PM
We're number two.... again :mad:
bobrek
11-07-2005, 02:46 PM
East Coast BS, if Willy was a Phillie he would be ROY.
Then how did Huston Street (Oakland) beat out Robinson Cano (Yankees)?
DaDakota
11-07-2005, 03:03 PM
Come on, if any of us were GMs they would take Howard over Taveras each and every day of the week.
DD
PhiSlammaJamma
11-07-2005, 03:04 PM
Taveras is going steal 100 bases next season to make up for not running at all in the post season.
Austin70
11-07-2005, 03:07 PM
Then how did Huston Street (Oakland) beat out Robinson Cano (Yankees)?
Dunno, I guess I am pissed because Willy busted his ass all year and Howard didn't play 100 games in the majors.
wrath_of_khan
11-07-2005, 03:08 PM
Come on, if any of us were GMs they would take Howard over Taveras each and every day of the week.
DD
That's not the issue.
Last time I checked the award wasn't for "Player With Greatest Potential Who Most GMs Would Pick First." The award is for performance over the course of a season, or at least most of a season.
Just over half a season doesn't cut it in my book.
(And yes -- I'd take Howard over Willy T.)
leehoang
11-07-2005, 03:35 PM
Ryan Howard... who?
rrj_gamz
11-07-2005, 03:58 PM
That is the biggest crock of sh*t!
What he said...I almost sh*t my pants when I heard this...Total BS...
pgabriel
11-07-2005, 04:00 PM
Taveres has to be the most hated on Astro. Dude was batting over .300 in the World Series and people on this site were talking about taking him out of the lineup. HE'S A FREAKIN ROOKIE. And he played pretty damn well for someone who got thrown into the fire.
kaleidosky
11-07-2005, 04:11 PM
Taveras did a hell of a job. But Howard was a much better player. I think his lack of games played was more than made up for by outshining Willy.
Our guy who hit leadoff had a pretty low OBP (and low SLG, so it's not like that balanced it at all). He had speed--that's about it. I love him on our team, but I think Howard deserves it..
don't you think "abysmal" is stretching it a little?
Among National League CFs listed at ESPN with more than 350 PAs(16 teams), Taveras ranks 12th in OBP, 16th in SLG, and 15th in OPS. Only Corey Patterson of the Cubs was a worse hitter than Taveras, based on OPS.
I know people like to bring up his speed. But his 75% stealing is not exactly off the charts. And his bunt hits really decreases the value of his BA. For most players, hitting a single will generally bring home a run from 2nd. But not with Taveras, whose infield hits can only advance runners one base at a time.
Taveres has to be the most hated on Astro. Dude was batting over .300 in the World Series and people on this site were talking about taking him out of the lineup. HE'S A FREAKIN ROOKIE. And he played pretty damn well for someone who got thrown into the fire.
What does his postseason glory has to do with the regular season? I absolutely love Taveras' potential, but as wrath_of_khan pointed out, this isn't about potential.
pgabriel
11-07-2005, 04:45 PM
What does his postseason glory has to do with the regular season? I absolutely love Taveras' potential, but as wrath_of_khan pointed out, this isn't about potential.
I know its not about potential, the guy almost batted .300 for an entire season as a rookie. that's production.
wrath_of_khan
11-07-2005, 04:52 PM
I know its not about potential, the guy almost batted .300 for an entire season as a rookie. that's production.
Exactly, and I was making the point that Howard's stats over HALF a season don't mean that he should win the award because he's the better prospect.
If you're going to quote me, at least quote me in support of the argument I was trying to make. Not to support your argument.
EDIT: That last sentence was addressed to meh, not pgabriel.
Taveres has to be the most hated on Astro.
Huh? See: Bagwell, Jeff. Also see: Miceli, Dan; Biggio, Craig; Dierker, Larry; and Williams, Jimy. While you're at it, check out Ausmus, Brad; and Everett, Adam.
Everybody hates on all the Astros. Why can't we all just get along? :p
T Rex
11-07-2005, 05:03 PM
I know this will sound unpopular, but I thought Howard deserved it.....he practically carried the Phils offense down the stretch. One big hit after another. I know he played in far fewer games than Willie did, but what matters to me how he played for the 2005 season, whether that be for 5 games, 50 games or 150 games. Howard would have been 7th in SLG and 5th in OPS in the league had he had the ABs. To me, he was the "better" rookie player.
I knew Howard would get it, and honestly I didn't have a problem with that either.
I wonder if there is a defined minimum that the BBWAA has agreed upon?
Joe Joe
11-07-2005, 05:13 PM
I know he played in far fewer games than Willie did, but what matters to me how he played for the 2005 season, whether that be for 5 games, 50 games or 150 games.
There is no way 5 games is a good sample size to determine how good a player is. 50 games probably isn't enough. I do think Howard played just enough to warrant the award. If Taveras would have batted .315, he would have won.
Kerfeld
11-07-2005, 05:15 PM
That sucks... I really wanted Willy T. to get it.
I know this will sound unpopular, but I thought Howard deserved it.....he practically carried the Phils offense down the stretch. One big hit after another.
granted, but does he get those hits if he's at the tail end of a long, grinding season? most rookies hit a wall at some point because the number of games and travel start to take their toll, not to mention the pressure. taveras successfully traversed that; actually hit .300+ in august, when most first-year players (actually, every player) get worn down and tired.
howard was great. so was jason lane over the same time frame. but i doubt he'll get many MVP votes...
Groogrux
11-07-2005, 05:58 PM
granted, but does he get those hits if he's at the tail end of a long, grinding season? most rookies hit a wall at some point because the number of games and travel start to take their toll, not to mention the pressure. taveras successfully traversed that; actually hit .300+ in august, when most first-year players (actually, every player) get worn down and tired.[/b]
That's a very good point. However, I don't think Taveras was really that strong a candidate. His .OBP for a leadoff man was atrocious.
howard was great. so was jason lane over the same time frame. but i doubt he'll get many MVP votes...
If Jason Lane qualified as a rookie, he would've received votes and maybe won Rookie of the Year even had he played the same amount of games as Howard. You can't compare the ROY and MVP awards.
If Jason Lane qualified as a rookie, he would've received votes and maybe won Rookie of the Year even had he played the same amount of games as Howard. You can't compare the ROY and MVP awards.
perhaps it was a bad analogy. i wasn't comparing the awards. but speaking of MVP, some are going to vote arod over ortiz in the AL MVP simply because ortiz was a DH & didn't play the field. and my contention is that i would agree with that line of thinking. taveras' numbers don't, by their lonesome, trump howard's, except that taveras consistently produced over the course of an entire season, and that holds a lot of weight with me because it's not easy to do.
pitchers didn't get a second or third shot to exploit whatever weaknesses howard might have had. he didn't have to patrol the field 162 days of the year and deal with the wear-and-tear consequences. he didn't have to go through the grind that can derail even the most seasoned vets. and while he certainly stepped into a tough situation, was it any tougher than taveras having to replace beltran after making the jump from double-A?
Groogrux
11-07-2005, 06:30 PM
perhaps it was a bad analogy. i wasn't comparing the awards. but speaking of MVP, some are going to vote arod over ortiz in the AL MVP simply because ortiz was a DH & didn't play the field. and my contention is that i would agree with that line of thinking. taveras' numbers don't, by their lonesome, trump howard's, except that taveras consistently produced over the course of an entire season, and that holds a lot of weight with me because it's not easy to do.
pitchers didn't get a second or third shot to exploit whatever weaknesses howard might have had. he didn't have to patrol the field 162 days of the year and deal with the wear-and-tear consequences. he didn't have to go through the grind that can derail even the most seasoned vets. and while he certainly stepped into a tough situation, was it any tougher than taveras having to replace beltran after making the jump from double-A?
I'm with you on almost all of that (except the whole DH/MVP thing, but that's a different thread). I think they gave it to Howard because there really wasn't anyone else exceptional to give it to, IMO. I'm extremely pleased with Taveras and I think he will make a great leadoff man, but he just didn't do all that much this season to warrant a ROY award. It's almost like they could've decided not to give it out this year.
vaioavan63
11-07-2005, 06:52 PM
Taveras got robbed! I think he played very well all season unlike that Ryan and Francour guy who only had good second halfs. And plus Taveras played in the World Series.
wrath_of_khan
11-07-2005, 08:03 PM
One other point ... if Taveras had such a crappy season (paraphrasing some of you), then why did he win the other two ROY awards?
Clearly, he's worthy of the award according to other sets of voters -- one of which consisted of MLB players and not writers like Richard Justice.
I wonder, by the way, how Howard would have done when pitchers saw him for the 2nd or 3rd time ...
Groogrux
11-07-2005, 09:14 PM
One other point ... if Taveras had such a crappy season (paraphrasing some of you), then why did he win the other two ROY awards?
Clearly, he's worthy of the award according to other sets of voters -- one of which consisted of MLB players and not writers like Richard Justice.
You could use the same argument against your decision. Clearly, many people believe Howard's worthy even if he only played half the season.
I think Taveras is winning these awards because there are people that believe like you do. They don't believe Howard or Francour should win because they didn't play the whole season. Basically, if you feel that way, it's Taveras' award by default since this wasn't exactly a bumper crop of rookies this year that played the entire season.
bobrek
11-07-2005, 09:38 PM
Taveras got robbed! I think he played very well all season unlike that Ryan and Francour guy who only had good second halfs. And plus Taveras played in the World Series.
Award votes are cast before the playoffs start.
bobrek
11-07-2005, 09:46 PM
For all those doubting Howard's credentials because he played a bit over 1/2 season, consider this bit of trivia:
Cal Ripken made the Topps all rookie team in 1981 AND 1982. Ripken only played in 23 games in 1981 and hit .128 (not a misprint) with 0 HRs, 0 RsBI and 1 run scored.
For all those doubting Howard's credentials because he played a bit over 1/2 season, consider this bit of trivia:
Cal Ripken made the Topps all rookie team in 1981 AND 1982. Ripken only played in 23 games in 1981 and hit .128 (not a misprint) with 0 HRs, 0 RsBI and 1 run scored.
Yeah, but Topps used to compile those teams, and create their "future stars" cards, based on the minor league career of the player and how that projects to the big leagues. Looks like they nailed it with RIP.
When I was a kid, I had a "future stars" card that had Rafael Palmeiro and two other guys on it.
Hakeem06
11-08-2005, 12:17 PM
ryan howard is going to be a great hitter in the majors, but how can you not give it to a guy who started from day 1 this season, batted leadoff (most of the season) on the team that went to world series, and is already one of the biggest threats on the base paths in the majors???? sorry, willy meant a whole hell of a lot more to a world series team, than howard did to a team that didn't even make the playoffs.
Xerobull
11-08-2005, 01:48 PM
Robbed. Ah well- it's only an award. Willie T is here to stay.
I know its not about potential, the guy almost batted .300 for an entire season as a rookie. that's production.
No that isn't. Taveras sucks big time in the one area top-of-the-lineup hitter needs to do: getting on base. His OBP, as I pointed out, was abysmal. Taveras also sucks big time in the one area lower-in-the-order should be able to do: drive people in. His slugging is absolutely pathetic. His batting average really deceives his ineptness on offense. Ensberg, for example, has a lower BA. But he was so much more useful on offense because (A)he draws a lot of walks and (B)hits lots of doubles and HRs.
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