ClutchFans - Burke or Lane for game 3?

Fegwu

10-13-2005, 10:57 PM

Lamb is going to start that game (Game 3). Lamb absolutely owns Matt Morris (see stats below). Also Lamb is very descent at home (slightly better than his road numbers) - now that considered combined with his mind boggling numbers against Matt........nuff said....

Mike Lamb vs Matt Morris

14 ABs
1 Double
3 HRs
4 RBIs
.357 BA
.438 OB%
1.071 Slugging :eek:
1.509 OPS

Matt Morri's numbers against Astros batters (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?playerId=3623&teamId=18)

Those numbers are absolutely ridiculous. Case closed, Lambs definitely (of course I am not Garner) starts that game at first base.

Then comes the issue of who joins Willy and Lance in the outfield. I'd go with Burke (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/448404) ahead of Lane (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/182277). For fairness' sake there is an argument to be made for Lane since he has very good numbers against Matt (5 ABs) as the link above shows but his entire 2005 post season stats has been poor. Look at it this way, Lane is below 0.25 for the playoffs while Burke is at an unlawful 2.500 or even greater. His average and OB percentage is very healthy as well. So far, Burke has taken the x-factor nod.

What do you guys think? Also a day off could be good for Lane as well even though he just had two days off earlier this week.

thech0senone

10-13-2005, 10:59 PM

You got to play the hot hand right now. Burke's confidence is so high right now and Lane is just too impatient at the plate right now.

PhiSlammaJamma

10-13-2005, 11:12 PM

Stay with Lane. I'm counting cards. and the odds are he's gonne hit a big one. The deck is stacked.

Luckyazn

10-13-2005, 11:14 PM

JunkyardDwg

10-13-2005, 11:18 PM

Can't BURKE PLAY SS? and take out Everett because I dont care how much you guys keep on saying his Dfense is gooood but I dont think so. Is just ok.....

and oh by the way ..... HE CAN"T HIT !!

Willy
Biggio
Berkman
Ensberg
Lane
Burke
Lamb
Ausmus

I would give him a serious look at SS in spring training...but now's not the time to be experimenting like that. I don't think Burke has ever played SS for the 'Stros.

Uprising

10-13-2005, 11:18 PM

v3.0

10-13-2005, 11:28 PM

It's Lane or Lamb out of the lineup in order to get Burke in...Adam Everett will stay at SS barring injury :(

Garner MUST get Burke in the lineup...without him in tonight's game, this might have gone into extra innings.

Svpernaut

10-13-2005, 11:29 PM

I was wondering the same thing.

Burke is a horrible shortstop for the majors, sad but true. Here is the lineup I'd have for game 3.

2B Biggio
CF Taveras
1B Berkman
3B Ensberg
RF Palmeiro (or Lamb)
LF Burke
C Ausmus
SS Bruntlett (or Vizcaino)

DallasThomas

10-13-2005, 11:42 PM

Why not exploit the smaller corner outfield territory of Minute Maid and use Lane at center? Granted, center field is seemingly twice as large as right at MMP, but you can spread the defense a smidgeon thin and shade Burke and Berkman toward center. Willy's speed is countered by Lane's reaction time in center, while Burke seems to be more of a natural 2-spotter than Taveras.

Biggio
Burke
Berkman
Ensberg
Lamb
Lane
Everett
Ausmus
Clemens

"The Killer B's Lineup" has a nice ring to it.

spence99

10-13-2005, 11:43 PM

Why do you have to bench Lane to get Burke in? What about Taveras? Burke could play CF. And Taveras only seems to get hits if no one is on.
As hot as Burke is, even if he doesn't start, he'll be a great pinch hitter available to use in a key situation late.

Luckyazn

10-13-2005, 11:46 PM

Beltran was hot last yr in the playoff...

this year is Burke ......

Stay with the KILLER "B's" !!!! Ensberg/Everett/Lane arn't showing up in the playoff ...... Berkman/Burke/Biggio ARE !!

Nick

10-13-2005, 11:47 PM

Why not exploit the smaller corner outfield territory of Minute Maid and use Lane at center? Granted center is much more than Lane's used to, spread the defense a tiny bit thin and shade Burke and Berkman toward center.

Biggio
Burke
Berkman
Ensberg
Lamb
Lane
Everett
Ausmus
Clemens

"The Killer B's Lineup" has a nice ring to it.

That's the move I'm suggesting as well... except that Lane needs to stay in RF (where his arm is a plus), and let Burke handle CF (which he can).

I don't trust Burke in RF... remember, he hasn't been an OF for that long, and when he has its only been in either LF or CF. RF is a position in MMP that demands an above average arm (and Burke does not have that).

I know Willy hasn't been that bad... but besides moving Biggio to 2nd base, he really adds nothing to this lineup.

DallasThomas

10-13-2005, 11:58 PM

Yeah, you're right about RF being the most important place for an arm at MMP...I just pictured that huge center field and thought, "That's where you need your arm."

nigma2000

10-14-2005, 12:05 AM

i would definately replace Taveras for Burke in CF. You have to match with the Cards and place your best hitting lineup in there, at least there are chances that most of them can go deep especially at MMP.

Nick

10-14-2005, 12:09 AM

Yeah, you're right about RF being the most important place for an arm at MMP...I just pictured that huge center field and thought, "That's where you need your arm."

Actually, you could have a cannon and still not throw anybody out from that deep CF... thus the arm there is rendered neutral.

But, RF is at a distance where its not too far away from home plate, thus there are several potential plays at the plate... but you have to have a guy with a good arm to do that.

I really think Garner should think about Burke at CF... I'd like to see Pallilo's take on it tommorow.

Fegwu

10-14-2005, 02:16 AM

I know Willy hasn't been that bad... but besides moving Biggio to 2nd base, he really adds nothing to this lineup.

Ludicrous. He sure adds more than Lane. Lane is a teaser and he is strictly in there for the power but unfortunately he is not doing us any good now like I feared. Lane is one player I hope I am wrong about but it does not look good. I think he has peaked in terms of his discipline - he will like end up becoming a very poor man's Dunn with very few walks......

He is not a dependable RBI guy because he is not smart enough to understand the fundamentals of that.

Willy is also a better defender and he comes with the better thorw arm. He can sacrifice bunt - something Lane cannot do.

Lane for now is an absolutely black hole. There is not need mincing words here - he has been beyond horrible in this series so far and even in the NLDS. I still hold out hope that he would turn it around since my desire to see the Stros win require consistent positive thinking.

We should stop making excuses for this Lane. Even without the benefit of inside information, Lamb is definitely starting. I am hoping that Garner starts Burke even though he could be a liability in rightfield. It will be an interesting decision and I feel safe knowing that Garner gets it right 7 out of 10 times.

Joshfast

10-14-2005, 02:37 AM

Burke for President of the NLCS. We need all the offense we can get.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 06:13 AM

The answer should be Berkman to the outfield...Lamb to 1B. Especially at MMP, where Lamb does very well.

I'm all for working Burke in. He can't play SS at the major league level, though. Been there..done that. Maybe they can work with him in the offseason, but his arm just isn't strong enough, apparently. I agree...that would be ideal. And he's not a rightfielder, either. Again with the arm.

Nick

10-14-2005, 07:22 AM

We should stop making excuses for this Lane. Even without the benefit of inside information, Lamb is definitely starting. I am hoping that Garner starts Burke even though he could be a liability in rightfield. It will be an interesting decision and I feel safe knowing that Garner gets it right 7 out of 10 times.

Well, you don't need to hold your breath. Garner will NOT put Burke in RF, period.

SamCassell

10-14-2005, 07:27 AM

Nick

10-14-2005, 07:30 AM

I'd go with Burke, Lane, Berkman in the OF, Lamb at 1B. I'd be surprised to see Garner pull Willy T out of the lineup tho, it seems more likely that Lane will be the odd man out. Taveras hasn't been left out of a game in almost a month.

The team/offense did just fine without Willy T when he was injured in September. I often feel like they end up winning despite his offense, not because of it... game 3 against Atlanta (where he couldn't get the bunt down twice), and last night's game (one bunt, but no rbi's with RISP) are good examples of that.

Xerobull

10-14-2005, 07:43 AM

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 07:44 AM

The team/offense did just fine without Willy T when he was injured in September. I often feel like they end up winning despite his offense, not because of it... game 3 against Atlanta (where he couldn't get the bunt down twice), and last night's game (one bunt, but no rbi's with RISP) are good examples of that.

Chris Burke is the only person with an RBI with RISP... taking Willy out of centerfield in a park such as Minute Made with a gap hitting team is ridiculous.

Austin70

10-14-2005, 07:44 AM

Burke needs to play, and Lamb needs to play, I like Willy's game but Burke can't play right. Would Garner bench Willy?

SamCassell

10-14-2005, 07:47 AM

The team/offense did just fine without Willy T when he was injured in September. I often feel like they end up winning despite his offense, not because of it... game 3 against Atlanta (where he couldn't get the bunt down twice), and last night's game (one bunt, but no rbi's with RISP) are good examples of that.
I'm with you, I think it's a liability in the playoffs to have a guy in a key position that can't hit the ball out of the infield (and doesn't draw walks). Too many instances where he's a minus more than a plus.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 07:48 AM

Burke needs to play, and Lamb needs to play, I like Willy's game but Burke can't play right. Would Garner bench Willy?

No no, but hell no. Willy is hitting over .300 for the playoffs and lane is hitting around .240, they aren't going to take Willy out, his defense is worth keeping him in with Minute Maid's massive centerfield.

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 08:35 AM

Burke is a horrible shortstop for the majors, sad but true. Here is the lineup I'd have for game 3.

No he isn't, he is at least as capable as Eckstein....however it is FAR too late to try to do this now....

And Lane KILLS Morris too....

Burke to the bench.

DD

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 08:37 AM

I'm all for working Burke in. He can't play SS at the major league level, though. Been there..done that. Maybe they can work with him in the offseason, but his arm just isn't strong enough, apparently. I agree...that would be ideal. And he's not a rightfielder, either. Again with the arm.

Ugh....where does this come from? He was moved in the minors because we needed a replacement for Biggio, and he was getting older.

Burke could be a SS in the majors, he is good enough, but it is TOO late to make that attempt now......maybe in winter ball and in the spring.

The Stros have to do something and Chris Everett is not the answer.

DD

Groogrux

10-14-2005, 08:43 AM

No he isn't, he is at least as capable as Eckstein....however it is FAR too late to try to do this now....

And Lane KILLS Morris too....

Burke to the bench.

DD

Please cease the Burke to SS talk. If the Astros believed he was at least as capable as Eckstein, they would have him out there. The Astros have never played him at SS since drafting him. They did not move him because of Biggio. They moved him because they didn't believe he could be a big league SS. Repeat after me three times. He will not play SS for us. He will not play SS for us. He will not play SS for us.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 08:45 AM

Ugh....where does this come from? He was moved in the minors because we needed a replacement for Biggio, and he was getting older.

Burke could be a SS in the majors, he is good enough, but it is TOO late to make that attempt now......maybe in winter ball and in the spring.

The Stros have to do something and Chris Everett is not the answer.

DD
it comes from the organization. my understanding is they tried him at SS in the minors and it didn't work out. they said his arm wasn't strong enough to make it happen. he was not moved in the minors to be a replacement to biggio. that's the first time i ever heard that.

ROXRAN

10-14-2005, 08:47 AM

Suddenly Burke looks like a reincarnation of Jason Kendall at his best!... :eek:

Groogrux

10-14-2005, 08:48 AM

it comes from the organization. my understanding is they tried him at SS in the minors and it didn't work out. they said his arm wasn't strong enough to make it happen. he was not moved in the minors to be a replacement to biggio. that's the first time i ever heard that.

I thought he hadn't played SS at all in the organization.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 08:53 AM

I thought he hadn't played SS at all in the organization.

i'm not sure..here's what I found:

http://www.athomeplate.com/spotlightburke.shtml
Defensively, Burke was an average shortstop until the Astros converted him to second because of his weak arm. In the course of a season, Burke has learned his way around the keystone position and he definitely won’t embarrass himself there. He has become able to make the double play and has the range of a shortstop, both very important things to have.

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2005/06/good_teams_need.html

Richard Justice: Chris Burke doesn't have the arm to play shortstop. Former general manager Gerry Hunsicker was told on draft day that Burke could play either short or second. Turns out, he can't. And Hunsicker wasn't amused. Chris Burke was one of several reasons the Astros made change in their scouting department last summer.

Nick

10-14-2005, 10:07 AM

"Chris came to Spring Training and we worked him out in left field, and I think he became the best left fielder in the league," Garner said. "He's done a marvelous job of making adjustments. He can play center field as well, and I think he plays it quite well. His versatility has been able to help us a bit."

Hopefully, its a foreshadowing of things to come in game 3 (ie - starting Burke over Willy T).

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051013&content_id=1249068&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

btw... this isn't official or anything... its just an article talking about how good Chris Burke has been for the team in the post-season.

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 10:11 AM

Max,

He doesn't have a hose for an arm, no doubt, but he does have a better arm than Eckstein....

Sometimes GMs look too much at arm strength and not enough at whether or not he can just get it done.

I hope they give him a look there in Spring training, because he can play SS, just not as well as Chris Everett defensively.

DD

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 10:11 AM

Ugh....where does this come from? He was moved in the minors because we needed a replacement for Biggio, and he was getting older.

Burke could be a SS in the majors, he is good enough, but it is TOO late to make that attempt now......maybe in winter ball and in the spring.

The Stros have to do something and Chris Everett is not the answer.

DD

As said by others, Burke canNOT be a short stop in the majors... Hunsicker, Purpura, Garner and even Jimy Williams have commented on this in the past.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 10:13 AM

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 10:14 AM

They said he was an AVERAGE SS....give me an average SS with a good bat, and you have improved the position.

How many runs does Everett save with his glove versus having another stick in the lineup.

My bet is that we improve dramatically with Burke at SS.....

BUT...I agree, not this year.

DD

Austin70

10-14-2005, 10:14 AM

Burke reminds me of Mark Lemke (sp?) for the Braves in the early 90s. Not too much in the regular season but he came up big for them in the playoffs.

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 10:18 AM

Burke reminds me of Mark Lemke (sp?) for the Braves in the early 90s. Not too much in the regular season but he came up big for them in the playoffs.

Too early to give him that label...he is just now finding his way.....He could make an Ensberg like leap next year with regular playing time.

Remember Ensberg platooned last year.....

DD

Nick

10-14-2005, 10:19 AM

If Willy can't improve his OBP or start getting some gap power... I think Burke (or an incoming FA) deserves a shot at being the everyday CF.

At least Everett gives you defense (which is valuable to our pitchers, even if we don't think its all that great)... Willy is spotty out there, at best.

You could then leadoff with Burke or Biggio... and have decent gap power in either spot to get some big innings early, or have an RBI guy up there when the bottom of the order gets on base (something Willy has yet to prove he can do).

MadMax

10-14-2005, 10:20 AM

Nick

10-14-2005, 10:22 AM

i'm not opposed to that, assuming Burke can field the position.

Did you read my quote from Garner above?

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 10:22 AM

MadMax

10-14-2005, 10:24 AM

Did you read my quote from Garner above?

yeah, i took it with a grain of salt after he said that Burke became the best leftfielder in the league. :)

having said that...i think he did a very good job in left...and i imagine he could translate to CF well.

Nick

10-14-2005, 10:27 AM

The problem with that is that Willy puts SOOO much pressure on the defense.

He will only get better.....

Right now, Burke does not have an everyday postion....

Against left handed pitchers, he plays.

Against Righties....he sits....

DD

Willy only puts pressure on the defense when he gets on base... and according to the stats, he's not doing that enough. Frankly, on most playoff teams, he'd be a pinch-runner (Dave Roberts)... but as of opening day, we had no other options.

Willy's also only 21 years old... and I do expect him to get better and eventually be a gap hitting, decent OBP guy... but as long as Biggio is still going to be playing for us and hitting his HR's, Burke needs to find somewhere else to play.

Right now, we're using Willy T in our lineup no different than we would use a pitcher... if Biggio gets on, we bunt with him. If men are on base in scoring position in the late innings, we pinch-hit for him. That's a huge liability for any team (let alone a playoff team), considering he's batting in the #2 spot of our weaker lineup.

As I said before, our offense produces most of the time despite Willy T, rarely because of him.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 10:36 AM

robbie380

10-14-2005, 10:43 AM

The problem with that is that Willy puts SOOO much pressure on the defense.

He will only get better.....

Right now, Burke does not have an everyday postion....

Against left handed pitchers, he plays.

Against Righties....he sits....

DD

the problem is that right now willy is killing us on offense whenever anyone is on base. he should not be batting 2nd. he is the antithesis of a #2 hitter since he cannot work the count and he should be in the 7 or 8 hole with burke batting #2 since burke is hot and he will walk a little more than willy and actually has the power to get the freaking ball out of the infield. how is that for a run on sentence? anyhow...the point is that willy t has proven that we cannot afford to have his complete lack of power in the 2 hole and we need burke in there since he has speed and some power and he is hot.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 10:47 AM

I sure am glad none of you fill out the lineup card... some horrible ideas flowing through here. Remove Willy for Burke in centerfield? Willy was a ROOKIE who LEAD the league in infield hits, bunt hits and can cover more ground then the vast majority of center fielders and he is hitting OVER .300 for the playoffs. Burke doesn't have the arm to play short stop and you want to throw him in center? Riiight. For a look at Burke's outfield skills see him getting completely fooled by Molina's ground rule double in the bottom of the 7th last night.

I like how simply because Burke has had a few good games people want to make crazy moves to get him into the lineup... Burke is on fire as of late and we do need to get him in as often as possible, but he isn't Beltran reborn and he shouldn't play positions he has no idea how to play. Taveras is doing his job and has NO problem moving the runner over (see yesterday's infield bunt hit while moving Biggio to 2nd) when he is supposed to. Taveras is also getting on and being stranded by Berkman and Morgan, but that isn't his fault.

Good Lord.

1. burke's problems with molina weren't of his own creation..it's where the outfield was positioned. blame garner for that. they were all pulled in. i didn't understand that at all....and they were on the next play, too, which i understood even less.

2. i hear ya. there is definitely a rush to get burke in because he's going so well right now. not a bad sentiment in the playoffs, though, frankly.

3. Taveras has had trouble moving the runner over in the playoffs...he had a hard time getting a bunt down a few times vs. the Braves.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 10:52 AM

the problem is that right now willy is killing us on offense whenever anyone is on base. he should not be batting 2nd. he is the antithesis of a #2 hitter since he cannot work the count and he should be in the 7 or 8 hole with burke batting #2 since burke is hot and he will walk a little more than willy and actually has the power to get the freaking ball out of the infield. how is that for a run on sentence? anyhow...the point is that willy t has proven that we cannot afford to have his complete lack of power in the 2 hole and we need burke in there since he has speed and some power and he is hot.

Let me introduce you to the role of a true #2 hitter... it is to get on if you can, or move the runner over. Beltran from last year is NOT your typical #2 hitter. The 6 hole is a bigger RBI spot then the 2 hole ever will be, so your reasoning is extremely flawed. Willy is hitting .318 in the playoffs while the team as a whole is hitting .267, he is doing his job... he is getting on base while NOT getting driven in by Berkman, Ensberg and Lane. He has a .378OBP for the playoffs which is second best (Berkman is first) on the team for players who have started in every game.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 10:55 AM

1. burke's problems with molina weren't of his own creation..it's where the outfield was positioned. blame garner for that. they were all pulled in. i didn't understand that at all....and they were on the next play, too, which i understood even less.

2. i hear ya. there is definitely a rush to get burke in because he's going so well right now. not a bad sentiment in the playoffs, though, frankly.

3. Taveras has had trouble moving the runner over in the playoffs...he had a hard time getting a bunt down a few times vs. the Braves.

Taveras is 2nd in OBP for everyday starters in the playoffs, and that play by Burke was BURKE'S FAULT, not Garners. He was playing in, but he also took a horrible angle to the ball and "looked" at the ball the entire time. If he would have run to the wall and turned and found the ball it would have been an easy out. I played the outfield for 14 years of organized baseball, and that is the first thing they teach you... if you are playing in and get burned run and then find the ball towards the end of your run like a wide receiver. Bragg Stockton school of baseball 101.

Major

10-14-2005, 10:55 AM

Willy only puts pressure on the defense when he gets on base... and according to the stats, he's not doing that enough. Frankly, on most playoff teams, he'd be a pinch-runner (Dave Roberts)... but as of opening day, we had no other options.

Willy's also only 21 years old... and I do expect him to get better and eventually be a gap hitting, decent OBP guy... but as long as Biggio is still going to be playing for us and hitting his HR's, Burke needs to find somewhere else to play.

Right now, we're using Willy T in our lineup no different than we would use a pitcher... if Biggio gets on, we bunt with him. If men are on base in scoring position in the late innings, we pinch-hit for him. That's a huge liability for any team (let alone a playoff team), considering he's batting in the #2 spot of our weaker lineup.

As I said before, our offense produces most of the time despite Willy T, rarely because of him.

To be fair to Willy, isn't he batting 0.300 in the postseason (at least, someone said that, I thought)? He does cause problems for defenses and can create things on the bases, and while his fielding has been spotty at times, he has improved there as well and does have excellent range. With the size of MMP, I think that's huge.

Willy's problem is that he's not an RBI guy, and got moved into a semi-RBI spot in the #2 spot with Biggio getting on a fair bit. Both him and Biggio are better #1 hitters than #2 hitters. I think you consider moving Brad up to the 2 spot (or Burke if you fit him into the lineup) - he can hit and bunt as necessary - and put Willy in the 8 spot like he started the year. That way, you strengthen the top of the order, and Willy can get on with his infield stuff and get bunted over by the pitcher for Biggio.

Right now, if you're going to bench anyone, it's got to be Lane. He's the one not producing. Willy at least has brought something good to the table this postseason.

Groogrux

10-14-2005, 10:57 AM

I like how simply because Burke has had a few good games people want to make crazy moves to get him into the lineup... Burke is on fire as of late and we do need to get him in as often as possible, but he isn't Beltran reborn and he shouldn't play positions he has no idea how to play.

Thank you. I love how Burke has shown up in these playoffs, but we cannot forget how lousy he was at the plate in the regular season. Do I think he'll continue like that? No, I don't, but let's not get carried away here.

Burke going to SS is like Lidge being a starting pitcher. Once again, DaDakota is convinced he knows more about baseball than the Astros.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 11:00 AM

Taveras is 2nd in OBP for everyday starters in the playoffs, and that play by Burke was BURKE'S FAULT, not Garners. He was playing in, but he also took a horrible angle to the ball and "looked" at the ball the entire time. If he would have run to the wall and turned and found the ball it would have been an easy out. I played the outfield for 14 years of organized baseball, and that is the first thing they teach you... if you are playing in and get burned run and then find the ball towards the end of your run like a wide receiver. Bragg Stockton school of baseball 101.

i played a little baseball, too :)

i hear ya...he didn't take a great angle....not at all. but why in the world was the outfield playing IN to begin with??? the next time they panned out, they showed the entire OF and they were ALL playing in. i don't get it.

i agree with Major, though...if you're putting anyone on the bench at this point, it's Lane.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 11:02 AM

To be fair to Willy, isn't he batting 0.300 in the postseason (at least, someone said that, I thought)? He does cause problems for defenses and can create things on the bases, and while his fielding has been spotty at times, he has improved there as well and does have excellent range. With the size of MMP, I think that's huge.

Willy's problem is that he's not an RBI guy, and got moved into a semi-RBI spot in the #2 spot with Biggio getting on a fair bit. Both him and Biggio are better #1 hitters than #2 hitters. I think you consider moving Brad up to the 2 spot (or Burke if you fit him into the lineup) - he can hit and bunt as necessary - and put Willy in the 8 spot like he started the year. That way, you strengthen the top of the order, and Willy can get on with his infield stuff and get bunted over by the pitcher for Biggio.

Right now, if you're going to bench anyone, it's got to be Lane. He's the one not producing. Willy at least has brought something good to the table this postseason.

Like I said above (clarifying your first paragraph, not directed at you alone) Willy is hitting .318 for the playoffs which is 2nd most on the team behind Berkman for everyday starters, and has a .375OBP for the playoffs which again is only 2nd to Berkman... taking him out of the lineup would be ridiculous considering that he leads the team in hits (7). This doesn't even take into consideration that he is our only true outfielder on the team and the only one who knows how to play center field... all the other outfielders are playing out of position and are far from great outfielders. Lane is the only other "outfielder" and he, Everett and Ensberg are the ones killing us at the plate.

Ric

10-14-2005, 11:19 AM

carlos burke all the way. lane can play again when he learns how to get the bat off his shoulder. he's been awful.

leroy420

10-14-2005, 11:38 AM

How about the one option no one has mentioned, yet...

Biggio 2B
Taveras RF
Berkman LF
Ensberg 3B
Lamb 1B
Burke CF
Ausmus C
Everett SS

Willy has a very strong and accurate arm. He can make the throws from right field. The only worry is that he doesn't have expierence there. The spin coming from a right handed batter is a lot different when a hit goes to right. I wouldn't be suprised to see Palmiero get the start, though. It's up to Garner to decide whether Lane's defense is more important that his offense. At the least, I would move him to 6th or 7th in the lineup. Berkman can of course play in RF, but I'd be worried that he can't cover enough ground with the knee. He's having a hard enough time doing it in left.

Fegwu

10-14-2005, 11:52 AM

I did not this about this earlier. This indeed is a great idea but I am not convinced Garner will bite. Great thinking Leroy420.

How about the one option no one has mentioned, yet...

Biggio 2B
Taveras RF
Berkman LF
Ensberg 3B
Lamb 1B
Burke CF
Ausmus C
Everett SS

Willy has a very strong and accurate arm. He can make the throws from right field. The only worry is that he doesn't have expierence there. The spin coming from a right handed batter is a lot different when a hit goes to right. I wouldn't be suprised to see Palmiero get the start, though. It's up to Garner to decide whether Lane's defense is more important that his offense. At the least, I would move him to 6th or 7th in the lineup. Berkman can of course play in RF, but I'd be worried that he can't cover enough ground with the knee. He's having a hard enough time doing it in left.

Hey Nick, what do you think about this linup now? The point you made earlier about Burke not playing RF is fair and since Garner has confidence that he can handle CF duties, I will not see anything wrong having Willy T in RF. Willy's numbers in this series and playoffs like svper pointed out is still very good (much better than Lane's). Garner knows his players best - I hope and expect him to do the best for the team with dynamic boldness.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 12:04 PM

Burke is a sub-par to average outfielder (doesn't know the outfield mechanics well enough yet) and you want him to play centerfield in a the MASSIVE Minute Maid outfield and then move Taveras to right where he has yet to play? So, you want to play two guys OUT of position at home in the NLCS just to get one guy in the line up? No manager in their right mind would do that unless it was Barry Bonds on Albert Pujols they were trying to inject in the line up, no Chris freaking Burke. This talk is about on par with the "far out" trade talk on Sports talk shows... "why don't we trade Babin for Ray Lewis?!" kinda crap.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 12:05 PM

Burke is a sub-par to average outfielder (doesn't know the outfield mechanics well enough yet) and you want him to play centerfield in a the MASSIVE Minute Maid outfield and then move Taveras to right where he has yet to play? So, you want to play two guys OUT of position just to get one guy in the line up? No manager in their right mind would do that unless it was Barry Bonds on Albert Pujols they were trying to inject in the line up, no Chris freaking Burke.

i agree...too many guys out of position.

leroy420

10-14-2005, 12:23 PM

I would also like to point out that it might be time to move Morgan back to the 3 spot. It might give him more pitches with Berkman behind him. With Lane behind him, he isn't getting sh*t to hit.

FranchiseBlade

10-14-2005, 12:23 PM

There has been a lot of negative talk about Everett. Everett did hit the ball that Sanders got hurt on. It was an RBI tripple. In the Atlanta game Everett is the one who threw LaRoche out at home. We might even be playing now if LaRoche had scored. I believe he also had a hit and was one base when Berkman hit the home run in Atlanta.

I am not opposed to putting someone who will help us out in at SS over Everett, but we should still appreciate the huge role he played in the Astros being where they are now.

rikesh316

10-14-2005, 12:31 PM

wrath_of_khan

10-14-2005, 12:34 PM

candlegreen

10-14-2005, 12:34 PM

I actually see the possibility of Vizcaino getting a start at SS for a game in MMP. As for Burke or Lane, I doubt that's what it's going to come down to. I do see Garner taking advantage of using Mike Lamb in MMP because of the novelty of playing Berkman at the short left field at MMP. If that's the case, I don't really see Burke starting at all unless Garner gets creative and put Berkman at Right field. This Cardinal Offense is dangerous. I see it as critical that we get all the outs that could be gotten. Giving them extra outs because of a slow outfielder could be very problematic. The only time I would experiment that possibility is Backe's game at game 4, where you could attempt to stay in the game by loading up your offense. When it's one of your "big 3" pitching, I feel that the Astros must stick with the conservative approach, and that's having Lane at RF (or Palmiero) and Taveras at CF.

Desert Scar

10-14-2005, 12:38 PM

I think Taveras has to stay at center. In a game likely to be low scoring defense and ability to manufacture runs have to be the 1st priority, which Taveras in center does. Which of Lamb, Burke and Lane gets left out of the starting lineup is more difficult.

I have to say based on Lamb and Lane success on Morris and their better overall success versus righties, that counts more than the "hot hand" of Burke in the big picture. Burke looking lost on an easy ball last game didn't help, if he made defensive plays like Edmunds I'd stick with him even with the inexperience. Also consider you don't want Garner to overmanage. He should have confidence in his guys, even those who are struggling like Lane, and more or less stick to what was worked to get the Stros to be on of the last teams in the league the last 3/4 of the season. Thus I think Burke starts on the bench. Next option is Lamb on the bench, Berkman at 1st.

If Lane or Lamb struggles badly and/or there is a pitching change, Burke needs to be ready though.

PhiSlammaJamma

10-14-2005, 12:44 PM

Don't forget lane made the diving catch and Taveras got the bunt single. These guys are playing their hearts out.

robbie380

10-14-2005, 12:52 PM

Let me introduce you to the role of a true #2 hitter... it is to get on if you can, or move the runner over. Beltran from last year is NOT your typical #2 hitter. The 6 hole is a bigger RBI spot then the 2 hole ever will be, so your reasoning is extremely flawed. Willy is hitting .318 in the playoffs while the team as a whole is hitting .267, he is doing his job... he is getting on base while NOT getting driven in by Berkman, Ensberg and Lane. He has a .378OBP for the playoffs which is second best (Berkman is first) on the team for players who have started in every game.

my point was mainly that i want tavarez out of the top of the lineup and in the bottom of the lineup. willy t can hardly get the ball out of the infield and maybe i have selective memory but willy t loves to suck whenever he needs a hit with a man on base. if biggio gets on base it might as well be an automatic out for willy t. we need willy either batting 1st or 8th. so i guess what i am really arguing is we need to put willy in situations where he is batting with no one on base. the numbers prove that to be true since his best hitting comes with the bases empty and his worst hitting is when there are RISP.

i love willy t but we just can't hope that he will start performing with men on base since he has no history of it.

biggio
burke
berkman
ensberg
lamb/palmiero/lane (god i wish lane could hit against lefties)
ausmus
everett
tavarez
pitcher

Ric

10-14-2005, 12:57 PM

Don't forget lane made the diving catch and Taveras got the bunt single. These guys are playing their hearts out.
awwwww....

hopefully, at this stage, that goes without saying. it's certainly not a reason to keep trotting lane out there. it's a short series; you ride the hot hand. lane is a cold hand. he's been abysmal.

AE has been about what you'd expect, but he has hit the ball hard.

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 01:36 PM

You know what we are 1-1 going home....I will take my chances and dance with what got us here.

Burke to the bench...

DD

MadMax

10-14-2005, 01:39 PM

Chris Burke can play right field. If he can play center, right field is a piece of cake. Right Field at MMP is not that much territory. Jason Lane sucks. Have you noticed that everytime he swings the first pitch, its a ball and everytime he doesn't swing, its a strike. I think he is no BB this playoffs other than a couple of IBB.

two different positions, entirely. we're not talking about his ability to field the position...we're talking about the importance of arm strength for a RF as compared to a CF.

Ric

10-14-2005, 01:41 PM

You know what we are 1-1 going home....I will take my chances and dance with what got us here.

Burke to the bench...

DD
isn't burke responsible for getting us here? won game 4; won game 2.... i can't stomach another jason lane at bat this postseason. he looks like the worst kid on a little league team that, by rule, is required to play. so he stands there, takes his three pitches and then sits back down while he his dad sits in the stands, eats his cap and punches anyone who dares to ask, "why is the reatarded kid in the game?"

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 01:51 PM

isn't burke responsible for getting us here? won game 4; won game 2.... i can't stomach another jason lane at bat this postseason. he looks like the worst kid on a little league team that, by rule, is required to play. so he stands there, takes his three pitches and then sits back down while he his dad sits in the stands, eats his cap and punches anyone who dares to ask, "why is the reatarded kid in the game?"

Lane and Taveras won more games for us then Burke did throughout the season... that is the way it is. Burke has come up big of late, but you have to go with the whole story. Most of the ideas here are moot because no manager in their right mind would ever make them.

robbie380

10-14-2005, 02:42 PM

Lane and Taveras won more games for us then Burke did throughout the season... that is the way it is. Burke has come up big of late, but you have to go with the whole story. Most of the ideas here are moot because no manager in their right mind would ever make them.

ok thats great justification for leaving in lane since he is prone to slumps and we don't have 40 games for him to work out his problems. we have to win now and burke is red hot and lane is looking horrible out there. and what stupid manager would put in the hottest player on your team to replace the crappiest one...gee that would just be stupid.

RAS

10-14-2005, 02:47 PM

Burke is showing he can step it up in the post season, while Lane has not. Many times there are players that perform well under pressure like in the post season. While others just do it in the regular season. We need to utilize the streak Burke is on and give him another opportunity to shine. Either way I am enjoying this experience and loving every game. GO ASTROS!

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 02:47 PM

ok thats great justification for leaving in lane since he is prone to slumps and we don't have 40 games for him to work out his problems. we have to win now and burke is red hot and lane is looking horrible out there. and what stupid manager would put in the hottest player on your team to replace the crappiest one...gee that would just be stupid.

If Burke could play right field, then by all means put him in for Lane... but HE CAN'T so discussing it is just stupid! Taveras is producing and even if Burke could play center (which he can't) he shouldn't replace Taveras considering he has the second best numbers on the team behind Berkman in nearly every offensive category. Getting Burke into the game is probably a good idea, but putting him in a position he can't or shouldn't play is just stupid. At this point putting Burke anywhere other then second or left is a ridiculous notion in the middle of the NLfreakingDS especially when tied at 1-1 and coming home for 3 games.

Ric

10-14-2005, 02:49 PM

Lane and Taveras won more games for us then Burke did throughout the season... that is the way it is. Burke has come up big of late, but you have to go with the whole story.
no you don't. this isn't about accumulating large sample sizes. lane is an automatic out right now; burke isn't. and teams have a reason to not fear burke, but certainly respect him until he proves otherwise; he adds punch to a line-up that needs it. in october, you play the hot hand. if burke cools down, then you adjust again on the fly. i don't care what happened in june, july, august or even september.

the problem with lane is that he's doing ZERO at the plate. ensberg is struggling, but at least he's hitting the ball hard. edmonds robbed him of a gapper last night; you could even say the same for AE. lane is frozen.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 02:51 PM

no you don't. this isn't about accumulating large sample sizes. lane is an automatic out right now; burke isn't. and teams have a reason to not fear burke, but certainly respect him until he proves otherwise; he adds punch to a line-up that needs it. in october, you play the hot hand. if burke cools down, then you adjust again on the fly. i don't care what happened in june, july, august or even september.

the problem with lane is that he's doing ZERO at the plate. ensberg is struggling, but at least he's hitting the ball hard. edmonds robbed him of a gapper last night; you could even say the same for AE. lane is frozen.

The problem with your wacky idea of playing Burke for Lane or Taveras is they are the only true outfielders on the team. Taveras is the only person we should have in center and Lane is the only person with the arm to START at right. Palmeiro is the only other player that has near the arm that Lane does, and if Lane doesn't start look for Palmeiro to start in right... there are no other options in right in a starting role.

Ric

10-14-2005, 02:51 PM

At this point putting Burke anywhere other then second or left is a ridiculous notion in the middle of the NLfreakingDS especially when tied at 1-1 and coming home for 3 games.
it's the NLCS and where did berkman play in last year's NLCS? or NLDS, for that matter?

i mean, why is everyone turning this into a physics equation? burke in left; berkman in right; lamb at 1st; lane on the astrodome floor helping evacuees. and then you cross the lefty bridge when you come to it.

Toast

10-14-2005, 02:52 PM

I'm all for wanting Burke in the lineup, but center field? Hell he misplayed a pop up in LEFT last night, transforming an easy out into a ground rule double.

And suddenly some of you guys think he has enough skills to cover center? HELL no. They'll just bloop it out into the outfield all night long.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 02:54 PM

it's the NLCS and where did berkman play in last year's NLCS? or NLDS, for that matter?

i mean, why is everyone turning this into a physics equation? burke in left; berkman in right; lamb at 1st; lane on the astrodome floor helping evacuees. and then you cross the lefty bridge when you come to it.

Berkman in right? The same Berkman that is at 80% (if not less) health-wise? Did you not see Berkman almost get thrown out on a passed ball when he moved from 2nd to 3rd? He has no speed, the only outfield he can play at MMP is left field with the short porch. Berkman didn't have a torn up knee last NLCS.

Ric

10-14-2005, 02:58 PM

Berkman in right? The same Berkman that is at 80% (if not less) health-wise? Did you not see Berkman almost get thrown out on a passed ball when he moved from 2nd to 3rd? He has no speed, the only outfield he can play at MMP is left field with the short porch. Berkman didn't have a torn up knee last NLCS.
fine, then palmeiro; leave berkman where he is. i'd like to see lamb in there and i think garner would, too.

or, if burke can play right; i have no idea. he's fast; doesn't look terribly overmatched.

candlegreen

10-14-2005, 03:21 PM

fine, then palmeiro; leave berkman where he is. i'd like to see lamb in there and i think garner would, too.

or, if burke can play right; i have no idea. he's fast; doesn't look terribly overmatched.

Defensively, 4 things are the foundations of playing a good outfield.

1. A good initial jump on a fly ball
2. Good speed to cover ground
3. Good decision making on making throws
4. A good arm to make the throw with power and accuracy

Lane probably is one of the only ones that can make this assessment... at least the best that we got. Taveras could use the jump, but his speed makes up for most of it.

Berkman can barely run as of now, his diving play was made because he was halfway up towards second base. The truth is, he sort of fell on the ball. Him playing out right field would be the cause of a lot of blooping singles because he would play deep half the time to avoid triples all over the place. He has a decent arm, and is smart enough to make OK decisions, but right field is out of the question unless he's desperate.

Palmiero is an average outfielder and below average as a RF. His speed is OK and he makes OK decisions. His arm power is below average for a right fielder and for a hitter's park, that's dangerous to have in MMP where the 90 feet from 2nd to 3rd place is so important.

Burke? He's been a decent left fielder at MMP. Garner probably stretched it too far by saying he could be the best defensively this year. His play in game 2 proves that he's average at best at Left Field this season. His speed is there, but his jump is far from being average. He read that ball wrong. I'm not saying I could do better hands down, but as a professional outfielder, those blunders could cost you a game easily, especially with an offense like St. Louis's. Him playing the large right field would be detrimental to the team. Sure, we need scoring, but a few at bats (let's say he bats 2 for 4, which is generous since that's a .500 average) usually don't mean a thing if a few popups dropped on the Astros for singles. The reason it hurts more for the Astros is because our team is built around our starting pitching. An out that's not made could be anywhere from 1-10+ extra pitches for our starting pitcher. Regardless of what these TV media people are trying to say, our bullpen is anything but dominant. Outside of Lidge, Wheeler has not been all TOO impressive as a setup man lately. He got out of a jam against Atlanta, but he gave up the walks and hits to get into that jam. Qualls is decent, but he leaves the ball up at times. Qualls, Astaco, Rodriguez, Gallo, AND Springer in a close game would have us biting our nails to the last out. Our Starting pitching is KEY to our success, then it's the "bridge to Lidge."

Anyways, Lane might be necessary, and if he bursts out of this slump, that'll be ideal for the Astros.

Nick

10-14-2005, 03:33 PM

First of all, I love this discussion here. Topics like this are what makes baseball so great... where you don't know whether or not to trust the long term vs. the short term, mixing and matching lineups, moving guys around, overreacting to stats... its beautiful. Frankly, I wish a lot of you were around during the season to make your points... I understand the bandwagon factor, but it would have been nice to get some decent baseball talk in the dog days as well.

Now to the topic at hand. First of all, there's a lot of miconception on whether or not to trust immediate results, or long-term trends when dealing with the extreme scope of the playoffs. A lot of people are pointing at Burke's gaffe in LF last night and looking at that as a reason why he shouldn't be in CF... but then a lot of people are forgetting that Willy made TWO SEASONS worth of defensive misplays on balls that should have been ROUTINE over the course of this past season. Experts in the organization (not just the BBS) know that Willy is far from an elite CF... the fact is, his instincts are all off and he relies on speed to make up for them. Sometimes he gets screwed, most of the time he recovers... and all the time, Garner replaces him with Bruntlett in CF in a close game situation (how's that for your "only true CF" on the team?).

Second of all... a lot of you seem to be satisfied with Willy's numbers in the post-season thus far... and for what we ask him to do, that's fine. But, the fact remains that he has yet to drive in the runs with guys in scoring position (even Lane has at least done that twice), and he has no extra-base hits, gap power, and virtually zero plate discipline. This is a guy who we use to bunt whenever a guy's on base and less than 2 outs... and a guy we pinch-hit for when its a late-game RBI situation... what other player do you do that with?.... oh yea, the PITCHER. Its not like our lineup is knocking in runs left and right... we need as many RBI guys as possible at ALL times.

So, Willy needs to be subbed defensively for late in games, and he needs to be subbed offensively for late in games... which begs the question again... WHY IS HE IN THERE? The answer is probably that he can give you a steal when you need it.... even though Molina can gun anybody out (and already has thrown out Willy multiple times this year)... but that's about it.

Now, I'll admit that Lane hasn't brought it since game 3 against Atlanta (that's 3 bad games in a row). But, with the short porch in LF, and his career #'s against Morris (and the fact that Morris is prone to the long ball), there is at least the POSSIBILITY of him going deep. Willy does not give you that possibility. Lane also has our only plus arm in the OF... he's playing RF... end of story.

And that brings us to Mr. Burke. The guy is hot right now... but a lot of you guys say "where has that been all season?" as a reason to why he shouldn't play right now. But, you also have to remember that Burke's track record is a guy who has succeeded at every level... a guy who hits doubles, triples, and has the occasional HR... and provides solid defense and good speed. It looks like he's currently living up to his career stats. Willy (who btw, never played above AA... unlike Burke) has a career that's been known for a high average, low OBP, zero XBHits, and no walks.... it also seems like he's living up to his career stats as well.

In the end, Garner is going to leave Burke on the bench... so all this talking is useless... I'm just making the case that Burke can (and probably is already) be a better hitter in this lineup than Willy Taveras, and in the end Willy's additions to this offense are not as great as they may be percieved to be.

DaDakota

10-14-2005, 03:39 PM

Lane is hitting .400 against Morris.....

DD

candlegreen

10-14-2005, 03:47 PM

Now to the topic at hand. First of all, there's a lot of miconception on whether or not to trust immediate results, or long-term trends when dealing with the extreme scope of the playoffs. A lot of people are pointing at Burke's gaffe in LF last night and looking at that as a reason why he shouldn't be in CF... but then a lot of people are forgetting that Willy made TWO SEASONS worth of defensive misplays on balls that should have been ROUTINE over the course of this past season. Experts in the organization (not just the BBS) know that Willy is far from an elite CF... the fact is, his instincts are all off and he relies on speed to make up for them. Sometimes he gets screwed, most of the time he recovers... and all the time, Garner replaces him with Bruntlett in CF in a close game situation (how's that for your "only true CF" on the team?).

Second of all... a lot of you seem to be satisfied with Willy's numbers in the post-season thus far... and for what we ask him to do, that's fine. But, the fact remains that he has yet to drive in the runs with guys in scoring position (even Lane has at least done that twice), and he has no extra-base hits, gap power, and virtually zero plate discipline. This is a guy who we use to bunt whenever a guy's on base and less than 2 outs... and a guy we pinch-hit for when its a late-game RBI situation... what other player do you do that with?.... oh yea, the PITCHER. Its not like our lineup is knocking in runs left and right... we need as many RBI guys as possible at ALL times.

So, Willy needs to be subbed defensively for late in games, and he needs to be subbed offensively for late in games... which begs the question again... WHY IS HE IN THERE? The answer is probably that he can give you a steal when you need it.... even though Molina can gun anybody out (and already has thrown out Willy multiple times this year)... but that's about it.

Now, I'll admit that Lane hasn't brought it since game 3 against Atlanta (that's 3 bad games in a row). But, with the short porch in LF, and his career #'s against Morris (and the fact that Morris is prone to the long ball), there is at least the POSSIBILITY of him going deep. Willy does not give you that possibility. Lane also has our only plus arm in the OF... he's playing RF... end of story.

And that brings us to Mr. Burke. The guy is hot right now... but a lot of you guys say "where has that been all season?" as a reason to why he shouldn't play right now. But, you also have to remember that Burke's track record is a guy who has succeeded at every level... a guy who hits doubles, triples, and has the occasional HR... and provides solid defense and good speed. It looks like he's currently living up to his career stats. Willy (who btw, never played above AA... unlike Burke) has a career that's been known for a high average, low OBP, zero XBHits, and no walks.... it also seems like he's living up to his career stats as well.

Nice Post on Willy. I agree that his jump to fly balls is anything but satisfying. The thing about Willy is when he DOES get on base, he really does change the perspective of the pitcher. I would love to have Burke playing, which makes me want the Astros to make the WS even more. Willy is usually replaced in a double switch or when he's replaced in an at bat. Bruntlett's been great at CF all season, which is also great. However, Willy's there because he provides some speed and hustle that's been lacking in the outfield. I wish he could drive in a run or hit something out of the infield with men in scoring position. Even more, I think Taveras should not be hitting second. Leadoff or somewhere at the bottom and have Burke (when he's playing) batting second. Willy just doesn't generate enough contact and relies on his speed a lot. But as much as I agree with the posts, I still firmly believe that Willy's speed will make some game saving grabs before the playoffs are over. Nice Post overall.

Ric

10-14-2005, 03:50 PM

a lot of you seem to be satisfied with Willy's numbers in the post-season thus far... and for what we ask him to do, that's fine. But, the fact remains that he has yet to drive in the runs with guys in scoring position (even Lane has at least done that twice), and he has no extra-base hits, gap power, and virtually zero plate discipline.
why are you comparing taveras to lane? lane bats fifth; he's supposed to drive in runs. taveras is supposed to set the table for guys like lane. if taveras is your standard for excusing lane's no-show... it speaks volumes of just how awful lane has been.

taveras doesn't need to apologize for his performance. he's lifted late in games for the same reason berkman gets lifted; situations change and call for a different approach.

Ric

10-14-2005, 03:54 PM

Lane is hitting .400 against Morris.....

yep, he's a whopping 2 for 5 against him this year. btw, that's two more hits... in fact, i think it's two more swings than he has in this series so far.

Nick

10-14-2005, 03:55 PM

yep, he's a whopping 2 for 5 against him this year. btw, that's two more hits... in fact, i think it's two more swings than he has in this series so far.

He also hit a huge 2 run HR in our pennant chase in September of Morris... were you watching that game, or have you only been paying attention to the short term?

MadMax

10-14-2005, 03:56 PM

the sample size against pitchers at this point is a little weak. biggio was 0-14 against Mulder going into last night's game, i believe. didn't matter.

now when you start talking about someone like Lidge over 30 innings or something like that...that's a bit more legit. but 2/5 doesn't mean much.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 03:57 PM

He also hit a huge 2 run HR in our pennant chase in September of Morris... were you watching that game, or have you only been paying attention to the short term?

easy, Nick. his point is well-taken. it's a sample size of 5 AB's. i pray that Garner isn't using that to determine who is and isn't starting.

Nick

10-14-2005, 04:01 PM

why are you comparing taveras to lane? lane bats fifth; he's supposed to drive in runs. taveras is supposed to set the table for guys like lane. if taveras is your standard for excusing lane's no-show... it speaks volumes of just how awful lane has been.

taveras doesn't need to apologize for his performance. he's lifted late in games for the same reason berkman gets lifted; situations change and call for a different approach.

In an ideal lineup, Taveras would be just fine... but this isn't an ideal lineup. We need RBI guys all over the place... we NEEDED Biggio to hit 26 HR's this year (and we've never asked that from him in all of his 17 years).

Willy has had multiple opportunities to drive in runs throughout the playoffs (and all season, for that matter)... and it hasn't happend. He also doesn't get on base enough to "set the table"... and right now, he's there simply to bunt.

Lane hasn't shown up the first two games... had a couple of RBI's the series before... and was our second-best power hitter throughout the second half of the season. I'm still giving him a chance because I do know what he's capable of.

Nick

10-14-2005, 04:03 PM

easy, Nick. his point is well-taken. it's a sample size of 5 AB's. i pray that Garner isn't using that to determine who is and isn't starting.

I also see guys writing off Lane and supporting Taveras for just their playoff performances thus far... that is a similiar small sample size also.

The bottom line... Lane is a better combo of hitter/fielder than we can get at RF from anybody else.

If we're simply living in the short term, Adam Everett is batting .375 for the NLCS... why are we ripping on him?

Ric

10-14-2005, 04:11 PM

He also hit a huge 2 run HR in our pennant chase in September of Morris... were you watching that game, or have you only been paying attention to the short term?
wow, i can't believe all the lane apologists on this board. he has been A-W-F-U-L. here are his POSTSEASON numbers, the only ones that matter right now: .167 with 3 RBI, 12 LOB and 6 K in 24 AB. he's 0'fer against the cards so far. if this were last year, with beltran, kent and bagwell, you could bury lane - no prob. but he's hitting fifth! this team needs him to pick up runs. i don't care what he did one night back in september.

burke is hot; lamb, too, has had a decent, albeit limited, postseason. you play for the short term; you go with the hot hand. it's not like lane has a track record of greatness. he's had one relatively OK season in which he was streaky. right now, he's cold; he needs to see pine. not rooting against him, but this team can't afford a slumping ensberg and lane. if burke is hot, he needs to play; outfield positions be damned.

W Texas Rocket

10-14-2005, 04:13 PM

Do we try and sign burk to a 100 million dollar contract since he is having a monster postseason like Carlo$ Beltran.

lol

candlegreen

10-14-2005, 04:13 PM

I also see guys writing off Lane and supporting Taveras for just their playoff performances thus far... that is a similiar small sample size also.

The bottom line... Lane is a better combo of hitter/fielder than we can get at RF from anybody else.

If we're simply living in the short term, Adam Everett is batting .375 for the NLCS... why are we ripping on him?

2 contradicting reasons.

The sample size of just the NLCS is so small it doesn't mean a thing.

and... it's always about what is done lately. Everett couldn't score Burke from 3rd and keeps trying to pull the ball for some reason. Personally, I wish he could regain the hustling for ground ball form that made him a nice 2 hole hitter for a good part of last year's season.

Nick

10-14-2005, 04:19 PM

2 contradicting reasons.

The sample size of just the NLCS is so small it doesn't mean a thing.

and... it's always about what is done lately. Everett couldn't score Burke from 3rd and keeps trying to pull the ball for some reason. Personally, I wish he could regain the hustling for ground ball form that made him a nice 2 hole hitter for a good part of last year's season.

I know its all about what's been done lately.... that's why there's 150 new posters in here compared to what's gone on during the season.

Everybody at ESPN picks the Astros before the series... goes back to the Cardinals after game 1.... and now are all back on the Astros bandwagon again after last night.

The same thing happens everywhere... its like 6 months of baseball don't exist. I'm also fine with Burke staying on the bench (I am not expecting him to continue this onslaught... but I do still feel he's a better option than Willy), but I'm not fine with putting out a lineup of Burke AND Willy T.

Willy, Everett, and Ausmus (despite his legend status) are still relatively easy outs... and Burke, despite his hotness, still hasn't proved he's a legit HR threat throughout his career. You can't have almost half your lineup without the threat of a guy to take you deep... Lane still does that despite his numbers thus far.

Ric

10-14-2005, 04:19 PM

He also doesn't get on base enough to "set the table"... and right now, he's there simply to bunt.

riiiiiight... among the regulars, taveras is second on the team in OBP in the postseason (care to guess who's last?) and second overall in hits with 7 (only berkman and biggio, with 8, have more). taveras has actually stepped his game up this october.

again, these are short series where right now is crucial. not september.

Lane hasn't shown up the first two games... had a couple of RBI's the series before... and was our second-best power hitter throughout the second half of the season. I'm still giving him a chance because I do know what he's capable of.

do you? over the course of a pretty sporadic season you're going to annoit lane "mr. reliable" and pin your playoff hopes on him snapping out of it, huh? hopefully, you're not phil garner.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 04:20 PM

I think we need to continue to use Burke like we have during the first 6 games of the playoffs... when we can. When we face righties we need Lamb and/or Palmeiro in the game, and when we face lefties, it is all Burke all the time. Burke is great to have off the bench when he's not starting and vice versa for Lamb and Palmy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it... and Garner won't.

Nick

10-14-2005, 04:24 PM

do you? over the course of a pretty sporadic season you're going to annoit lane "mr. reliable" and pin your playoff hopes on him snapping out of it, huh? hopefully, you're not phil garner.

No... I'm not... but I would also not be the one who put this lineup out there for a NLCS game:
Biggio
Taveras
Berkman
Ensberg
Burke
Everett
Ausmus
Pitcher.

Also, you're overreacting big-time right now. Calm down... relax... and realize that baseball will drive you crazy from the game-to-game, week-to-week, month-to-month inconsistency. Watching games for the entire season helps you rationalize these situations much better... and helps you avoid the kneejerk reactions that the typical playoffs-only baseball viewer likes to propose.

Also, I call Lane's season after the all-star break anything but sporadic... he was probably the second most consistent behind Berkman.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 04:25 PM

I also see guys writing off Lane and supporting Taveras for just their playoff performances thus far... that is a similiar small sample size also.

The bottom line... Lane is a better combo of hitter/fielder than we can get at RF from anybody else.

If we're simply living in the short term, Adam Everett is batting .375 for the NLCS... why are we ripping on him?

i agree...but it's a more relative sample size because it's recent. i don't know for sure when Lane's ABs were against Morris.

honestly, i'm with you. i don't think Burke can play RF or CF that effectively. but i don't know that it's as wild an argument as some here think.

candlegreen

10-14-2005, 04:34 PM

i agree...but it's a more relative sample size because it's recent. i don't know for sure when Lane's ABs were against Morris.

honestly, i'm with you. i don't think Burke can play RF or CF that effectively. but i don't know that it's as wild an argument as some here think.

I agree with you and Nick in regards to Burke playing every day. I always agree with riding a hot streak, but you have to look at defense, not just offense. Taveras is second in OBP, but that number doesn't determine overall effectiveness. Taveras is speedy, but he seems to have trouble reading pickoff pitches, which is why he got caught stealing last night. Taveras has a very late break when he steals, especially against Mulder, a left hander. Now, back to the OBP. OBP is great, you get on base, create some havoc. That's great for a leadoff, but he's a 2 hole batter where if batters are on, it's HIS JOB to move them over or bat them in when there are 2 outs. Willy is almost a certainty to not score anyone from 2nd base with a hit. Most of his hits are "speed hits," which means that no one's going to score from second. In many of those instances, the batter from second may not even make it to third. Based on the number of doubles that Biggio hits, that one could really hurt.

Although I see the negative aspects of Taveras at the 2 hole and his rookie mistakes, I still see him as much of a must start as possible. The truth is, if Taveras doesn't start, it'll probably be Bruntlett, especailly with the LONG center field in MMP. I see Taveras as more of an initial threat offensively and defensively when it comes to 7-9 innings. He just needs to work on some mechanics on both sides of the inning.

Lane has not been hitting the ball, but he has also proven that he COULD deliver with a big hit. When Lane hits the ball, there's always a good chance that our runners would score. More importantly, Lane has an above-average arm for an outfielder and covers more ground, making it that much more important whenever Berkman's playing left field. When Lane is playing well defensively and Willy playing center with that speed, it can help Berkman or Burke or whoever's playing left immensely. The whole field could shift left some to alleviate pressure for the left fielder.

Groogrux

10-14-2005, 04:38 PM

Without Lane in the game last night, the leadoff hitter in the first is on third with 0 outs.

Just a thought before some people have a coronary.

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 04:39 PM

We're just beating a...
http://www.oddjack.com/dead%20horse.jpg

Nick

10-14-2005, 04:39 PM

We're just beating a...
http://www.oddjack.com/dead%20horse.jpg

Thanks... that cracked me up.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 04:42 PM

Without Lane in the game last night, the leadoff hitter in the first is on third with 0 outs.

Just a thought before some people have a coronary.

yeah, that was a great play. he's made more than a few of those this year. he made a nice catch up against the wall in the corner in game 1, too.

Stack24

10-14-2005, 04:57 PM

You ride the wave that is working..and that is BURKE.

MadMax

10-14-2005, 04:59 PM

You ride the wave that is working..and that is BURKE.

hey..i'm heading to the game with my son AGAIN this sunday. we may have to stop by for some karma. worked for us last time! :)

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 05:13 PM

hey..i'm heading to the game with my son AGAIN this sunday. we may have to stop by for some karma. worked for us last time! :)

karma and pizza!

MadMax

10-14-2005, 06:43 PM

karma and pizza!

EVERYONE WINS! :)

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 06:49 PM

EVERYONE WINS! :)

I love the pizza there, I always get the italian sausage and onion one... I'm forgetting the name right now because I only have one beer in me :-P

MadMax

10-14-2005, 06:54 PM

I love the pizza there, I always get the italian sausage and onion one... I'm forgetting the name right now because I only have one beer in me :-P

yeah, that is a good pizza. my son had the pepperoni last week...i'm thinking he HAS to eat that again this week. that means i'm eating chicken fingers again this week.

same table..same chairs..same everything.

Groogrux

10-14-2005, 06:58 PM

I love the pizza there, I always get the italian sausage and onion one... I'm forgetting the name right now because I only have one beer in me :-P

These pretzels are making me thirsty.

I have no idea why I thought that would be a good substitution for telling you that your post made me hungry. Um, yeah.

madmax11

10-14-2005, 07:16 PM

Svpernaut

10-14-2005, 07:27 PM

thewaterox

10-14-2005, 08:38 PM

Did anybody see ESPN when they said that Garner would spend Friday night deciding whether Burke or Mike Lamb would get the start? Looks like Lane is in no matter what and this is the lineup dilemma.

Line up

Biggio 2B
Taveras CF
Berkman 1B/LF
Ensberg 3B
Lane RF
Burke LF/Lamb 1B
Everett SS
Ausmus C
Pitcher

I think we have to keep Berkman at 1B even if it means Lamb sits. Berkman in left is the reason the Braves sent LaRoche home in game 4 from 1st. I know he was out at the plate, but you get my point. Burke's speed in left is a big plus because he can cut balls off before the get to the wall and we get to keep his hot bat in the line up. Here's the line up:

Biggio
Taveras
Ensberg
Berkman
Burke
Lane
Ausmus
Everett
Pitcher

PhiSlammaJamma

10-14-2005, 09:00 PM

Things that can't hit.
Things that realize the pitchers carry them on their back.
Things that go into slumps.
Things that are comcastic. WOOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!

FranchiseBlade

10-14-2005, 10:37 PM

deleted

FranchiseBlade

10-14-2005, 10:37 PM

I think DaDakota said it best. We are right where we want to be with the series headed back to Houston. Dance with who brought ya. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I will also say that Garner has done an amazing job so far figuring out who should and shouldn't play, at what times. So while my inclination is to stick with Lane, if Garner chooses to change the line up at all, I will fully support and trust him to do his job. I think it is safe to say that most of us would have had Bagwell batting instead of Ausmus in game 4 against ATL.

Fegwu

10-15-2005, 12:14 AM

I think DaDakota said it best. We are right where we want to be with the series headed back to Houston. Dance with who brought ya. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

What exactly brought us "here"? And where is "here"?

I am waiting to see Garner's guts. We can discuss semantics and allow our bias derail us but we cannot deny that fact that Lane is not a dependable/good RBI. We cannot deny that he is our dumbest and most indiscipline hitter at the plate. We cannot deny that he is a black hole. We cannot deny that he cannot draw a BB to save his life. We cannot deny that we have come thus far in spite of him and his oft underrated weaknesses. We cannot deny that he is flat out horrible and an eyesore. We want him to succeed but how far can we allow this to go on? How long can we allow him to continue to bea liability to our offense?

We are somewhat playing with house money. Should we play it safe or go for broke? You know what - I rather try a Lance-Willy-Chris outfield and fail than stick with the status quo with a universal weaklink in Lane at the core.

We need as many x-factors as possible because our teams lacks the luxury of Beltran, Bagwell and Kent to help hide borderline automatic outs like Lane who oh btw plays in the heart of our offense.

Lets not leave any stone unturned.

Groogrux

10-15-2005, 12:41 AM

What exactly brought us "here"? And where is "here"?

I am waiting to see Garner's guts. We can discuss semantics and allow our bias derail us but we cannot deny that fact that Lane is not a dependable/good RBI. We cannot deny that he is our dumbest and most indiscipline hitter at the plate. We cannot deny that he is a black hole. We cannot deny that he cannot draw a BB to save his life. We cannot deny that we have come thus far in spite of him and his oft underrated weaknesses. We cannot deny that he is flat out horrible and an eyesore. We want him to succeed but how far can we allow this to go on? How long can we allow him to continue to bea liability to our offense?

We are somewhat playing with house money. Should we play it safe or go for broke? You know what - I rather try a Lance-Willy-Chris outfield and fail than stick with the status quo with a universal weaklink in Lane at the core.

We need as many x-factors as possible because our teams lacks the luxury of Beltran, Bagwell and Kent to help hide borderline automatic outs like Lane who oh btw plays in the heart of our offense.

Lets not leave any stone unturned.

Sweet. You pretty much guaranteed a Jason Lane monster day tomorrow.

A thread is started about Brad Ausmus sucking and he goes on to be arguably our second best hitter since July 1st? Check.

Constant whining all year about what a bust Chris Burke is only to see him become a Houston folk legend in a mere 8 ABs in the playoffs? Check.

A couple of posters who are on the verge of strokes because their hatred of Lane? Huge day in NLCS game 3.

Again, thanks in advance.

Mr. Clutch

10-15-2005, 06:26 AM

What exactly brought us "here"? And where is "here"?

I am waiting to see Garner's guts. We can discuss semantics and allow our bias derail us but we cannot deny that fact that Lane is not a dependable/good RBI. We cannot deny that he is our dumbest and most indiscipline hitter at the plate. We cannot deny that he is a black hole. We cannot deny that he cannot draw a BB to save his life. We cannot deny that we have come thus far in spite of him and his oft underrated weaknesses. We cannot deny that he is flat out horrible and an eyesore. We want him to succeed but how far can we allow this to go on? How long can we allow him to continue to bea liability to our offense?

We are somewhat playing with house money. Should we play it safe or go for broke? You know what - I rather try a Lance-Willy-Chris outfield and fail than stick with the status quo with a universal weaklink in Lane at the core.

We need as many x-factors as possible because our teams lacks the luxury of Beltran, Bagwell and Kent to help hide borderline automatic outs like Lane who oh btw plays in the heart of our offense.

Lets not leave any stone unturned.

I don't know if I dislike Lane that much, but I do agree that he is pretty undisciplined and rather dumb at the plate at times. To me, it's a no-brainer to have Burke in there. The decision then comes to whether you want Berkman in right with Lamb at first.

FranchiseBlade

10-15-2005, 09:53 AM

What exactly brought us "here"? And where is "here"?

Here is the division championship series against the Cards. Here is getting to the playoffs and past the braves with one win in St. Louis and headed back to Houston.

What brought us here is a line up with Lane in it. Burke started last game, but has been coming off the bench mostly.

Fegwu

10-15-2005, 10:06 AM

Here is the division championship series against the Cards. Here is getting to the playoffs and past the braves with one win in St. Louis and headed back to Houston.

What brought us here is a line up with Lane in it. Burke started last game, but has been coming off the bench mostly.

What brought us here is mostly Garner, Roger, Andy, Oswalt, Wheeler, Lidge, Morgan, Lance and Houston Chronicle.

The next tier is Bradley, Bidge and NL East parity.

The contributions of Lamb, Burke, Taveras, Lane (Mr. Hollow stats man), et al though commendable are/were not that critical to our success. Let me clarify - we could achieved similar or better results with different parts with the same core of 1st and 2nd tier of the players and factors that brought us thus far.

And the thing that has gotten us thru to the point in the playoffs remains our pitching but we cannot be naive forever and expect 2 or less runs from every starter - they are no robots.

That said, best wishes to Lane if he starts. I'd be happier if he did not.

Major

10-15-2005, 10:32 AM

What brought us here is mostly Garner, Roger, Andy, Oswalt, Wheeler, Lidge, Morgan, Lance and Houston Chronicle.

The next tier is Bradley, Bidge and NL East parity.

The contributions of Lamb, Burke, Taveras, Lane (Mr. Hollow stats man), et al though commendable are/were not that critical to our success. Let me clarify - we could achieved similar or better results with different parts with the same core of 1st and 2nd tier of the players and factors that brought us thus far.

And the thing that has gotten us thru to the point in the playoffs remains our pitching but we cannot be naive forever and expect 2 or less runs from every starter - they are no robots.

That said, best wishes to Lane if he starts. I'd be happier if he did not.

To be fair to Lane, he was our #3 OPS hitter, #3 RBI man, #2 HR hitter, and #2 Doubles hitter. He's struggling right now, but he was a big part of our mid-season run that got us back in the playoff hunt.

Svpernaut

10-15-2005, 10:34 AM

What brought us here is mostly Garner, Roger, Andy, Oswalt, Wheeler, Lidge, Morgan, Lance and Houston Chronicle.

The next tier is Bradley, Bidge and NL East parity.

The contributions of Lamb, Burke, Taveras, Lane (Mr. Hollow stats man), et al though commendable are/were not that critical to our success. Let me clarify - we could achieved similar or better results with different parts with the same core of 1st and 2nd tier of the players and factors that brought us thus far.

And the thing that has gotten us thru to the point in the playoffs remains our pitching but we cannot be naive forever and expect 2 or less runs from every starter - they are no robots.

That said, best wishes to Lane if he starts. I'd be happier if he did not.

Ridiculous doesn't even begin to explain this line of thinking. Hollow stats? So that home run to tie up the Cubs didn't mean jack? The man contributed all year and is in a slump like MOST of our offense... Ensberg isn't exactly hitting well outside of the first couple of Braves games.