Bagwell is not the answer

[reggietodd]

I'm with all of you about wanting to see bagwell come in for a pinch hitting situation and hit a homer and drive it into the upper deck like he did in his hay day, but I have some info: "It ain't happenin". Bagwell's shoulder is jellow, he can't even throw from first base to third without looking like a wanna be gumby.

Everyone always wants this guy to pinch hit and smack a homer out of the park, but realistically, it ain't happenin' If he can't throw to third then how is he going to muster up the power to go yard? I'm glad we have this guy in the lineup to pinch hit in desperate situations, hes a homer, but lets not bash Garner for not putting in Bagwell in critical situations when Garner knows that his soulder is Jello.

[reggietodd]

side note: i was drunk when I wrote this, but I thought about it while in the bar and it made perfect cents to me, I'm jusut having trouble typing right now.

[u851662]

side note: i was drunk when I wrote this, but I thought about it while in the bar and it made perfect cents to me, I'm jusut having trouble typing right now.

LOL! Been there before... :D

[Aceshigh7]

I don't know, the ball seems to be jumping off his bat pretty well. I think if he were to get some opportunities it could happen.

[Agent27]

Different muscles, different motions. Just because he can't throw doesn't necessarily mean he can't hit.

[DaDakota]

Palmero should have been the PH instead of Viz.

DD

[Austin70]

If we get to WS, would he DH?

[DaDakota]

If we get to WS, would he DH?


Yes, that is the plan as I understand it.

[redgoose]

He can hit doubles with ease...but home runs are a stretch for him right now.

If the Stros did win it all this year, do you think he would feel satisfied?

If i were in his shoes, i don't think i would. Not taking anything away from him, i still consider him our best pinch hitter, and he was our best player for years till Berkman came around.

[msn]

He sure juices them out of the yard during BP. While that's not Izzy pitching, it's certainly a power stroke and plenty of distance.

[redgoose]

Heck, even the pitchers juice them out of the yard in batting practice. Most just play home run derbey. The reason Clemens is a good hitter for a pitcher because he actually practices hitting the ball the other way and utilizing the whole field rather than swinging for the fences.

I remember when we got Randy Johnson. He would swing the bat and it would go flying 30 feet. I was at a game were he did it twice in a row during 1 at bat. When he finally made the slightest contact with the ball, he got a standing ovation in the Astrodome. The fans went wild over that out. :cool:

[jlivz]

Garner had to know Vizcaino wasn't going to smack a homer out either though.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

I thought his bat had a lot of life in it myself. I dunno about a homer, cause we haven't seen it, but his cuts have been hard. He's also been getting screwed by perfect pitches early in the count. I never seen one hitter get that many good pitches in a long while. Seems like every first pitch is unhittable and a strike. Makes it tough to go yard when you down in the count.

[msn]

Heck, even the pitchers juice them out of the yard in batting practice.
True. But the point is, if he can move those muscles then he can.

[A-Train]

What was the question?

[MadMax]

Jeff Bagwell is a better option as a pinch hitter than Jose Vizcaino.

Orlando Palmeiro is a better option as a pinch hitter than Jose Vizcaino.


I'm anxious to hear what Garner has to say about that. I rarely second-guess managers. But I was baffled by seeing Jose step into the batters box last night in that situation.

[Austin70]

What was the question?


The question was "Does it make perfect cents to post drunk?"

[msn]

"Does it make perfect cents to post drunk?"
Since when would you make cents when you can make dollars? That doesn't make any sense.

[The Cat]

Palmero should have been the PH instead of Viz.

DD

Exactly. Palmeiro's the perfect choice right there in a situation where Isringhausen has been wild and you likely were better off taking one or two pitches. He's also the most likely of anyone on the bench to either get a hit or draw a walk and get Biggio to the plate.

I don't understand the fascination with Viz anymore. He's looked absolutely terrible at the plate the last month or so. Not in numbers (maybe they're bad, maybe they aren't, I haven't looked), but he's not making contact at the rate he normally does and his bat seems to be significantly slower than the Viz of previous years.

[Uprising]

Jeff Bagwell is a better option as a pinch hitter than Jose Vizcaino.

Orlando Palmeiro is a better option as a pinch hitter than Jose Vizcaino.


I'm anxious to hear what Garner has to say about that. I rarely second-guess managers. But I was baffled by seeing Jose step into the batters box last night in that situation.


You and everyone in Buffalo Wild Wings. We were all like WTF?! Viz?!

[Svpernaut]

Palmero should have been the PH instead of Viz.

DD

Vis had the highest average against Izzy, thus the reason he got the call... plus it was a lefty on righty, so that is another reason he got the nod over Bagwell, althought Orlando is a lefty too.

[Major]

Jeff Bagwell is a better option as a pinch hitter than Jose Vizcaino.

Orlando Palmeiro is a better option as a pinch hitter than Jose Vizcaino.


I'm anxious to hear what Garner has to say about that. I rarely second-guess managers. But I was baffled by seeing Jose step into the batters box last night in that situation.

FWIW, in case you didn't see the game thread, Viz has a 0.420 lifetime average against Izzy, and a 0.500 lifetime on-base percentage.

Since you just needed to get on there, I think Garner was saving Bagwell for Willy's spot if we need a game-tying or game-winning single there. Viz was as likely as Bags to get on base there.

[Svpernaut]

Viz was as likely as Bags to get on base there.

And believe it or not Viz has more pop then Bagwell does right now, Baggy while hitting well doesn't have the power he once had.

[Hakeem06]

i don't see him hitting homeruns either with that shoulder but he is still driving the ball pretty well. no reason he can't some up with some singles and doubles. IF the stros get to the WS, i would rather have berkman DH, and put burke in the OF. two homers already...get him in the lineup.

[DoitDickau]

FWIW, in case you didn't see the game thread, Viz has a 0.420 lifetime average against Izzy, and a 0.500 lifetime on-base percentage.

Since you just needed to get on there, I think Garner was saving Bagwell for Willy's spot if we need a game-tying or game-winning single there. Viz was as likely as Bags to get on base there.

is the this the same vizcaino that has had a sub-300 obp two out of the last three year?

I wonder what the sample size is for viz's average against izz? I can't imagine it being very large. the last three years, and especially this year, he's been pretty horrible with the bat. at this point in his career he doesn't hit for average, doesn't get on-base and doesn't hit for power. moreover, it's not like he has been playing well lately or has even looked good swinging the bat. He hit 190 in september, and for the life of me, i can't remember the last time he hit the ball hard. I just find it curious that a manager would rely so heavily on what has to be a small and statistical insignificant stat like viz's ba. against the pitcher, when a much larger body of information tells you he's not the guy in that situation. Especially, when you have a much better option in palmeiro available.

That said, garner and vizcaino aren't the reasons the astros lost the game last night. The cardinals playing well, pettitte having a poor outing,and the astros inability to take advantage of offense opportunities earlier in the game was really the main cause of of the loss. Luckily they can make up for it, with a big win tonight.

[MadMax]

i'm with dickau...i can't imagine the sample size of Viz vs. Izzy is enough to justify keeping either Bagwell or Palmeiro on the bench in his place. this is where we see over-managing, I think. you have a hitter on your bench like bagwell?? give him the shot at hitting. but that's me...

[kaleidosky]

i'm with dickau...i can't imagine the sample size of Viz vs. Izzy is enough to justify keeping either Bagwell or Palmeiro on the bench in his place. this is where we see over-managing, I think. you have a hitter on your bench like bagwell?? give him the shot at hitting. but that's me...


usually, with a sample size of 14 or 16 or whatever, I'd actually side with the stats. However, in this case, we were dealing with

Viz (lefty, .400+ avg against Izzy, healthy, not hitting great of late)
Bags (righty, .300+ avg against, bum shoulder, hitting well of late off the bench)


If it was purely Viz and his good avg, that's one thing. But it was Bags on the bench with a good avg, just not AS good. I feel like it was 2 out of 4 factors above, but the "hitting of late" should have factored in more..so I'd have gone Bags.

But also not as clear as it seems.

[leroy420]

You have to go with the guy that gives you the best chance to score. In that case, it was Bagwell. If it was the pitchers spot to lead off the inning, use Viz. With 2 outs, down 2 runs, a man in scoring position, and Biggio on deck it should have been Bagwell. He doesn't have to hit it out of the yard to be successful. A base hit puts us down 1 with Everett running at 2nd and the fact that they are conceding the run by playing deep to not give up the extra base. It was the wrong move, period.

[Svpernaut]

Garner has proven to us time and time again that he knows his players better then anyone else. We have no idea what exactly his reasoning was, but I am sure there are a few factors that played into it that we have no clue about. Bagwell could have not felt right, and with the climate change (pretty cool at night in St. Louis) he just might have told Garner he wasn't up to it. I don't see Bagwell saying that, but then again he IS a true team player and may very well have done something like that. Either way, it was one move that really didn't have an outcome on the game. The chances of either one of them getting a hit and keeping the game alive in that position are few and far between.... not saying it wasn't possible, but it is far from a "huge mistake" by Garner. The team lost because they couldn't execute twice with men on third and 1 out, not because Garner chose Viz over Bagwell.

[MadMax]

svpernaut -- i agree. i'm being critical..but i don't know what i don't know. you're exactly right...bags could have been feeling bad...or any number of other things. this is why i typically don't second-guess. i was just VERY surprised to see Viz step in the box last night.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Bagwell is not the answer

Well, we can't put in Jesus.

[JunkyardDwg]

I'm with all of you about wanting to see bagwell come in for a pinch hitting situation and hit a homer and drive it into the upper deck like he did in his hay day, but I have some info: "It ain't happenin". Bagwell's shoulder is jellow, he can't even throw from first base to third without looking like a wanna be gumby.

Everyone always wants this guy to pinch hit and smack a homer out of the park, but realistically, it ain't happenin' If he can't throw to third then how is he going to muster up the power to go yard? I'm glad we have this guy in the lineup to pinch hit in desperate situations, hes a homer, but lets not bash Garner for not putting in Bagwell in critical situations when Garner knows that his soulder is Jello.

If batting and throwing were related, then Bagwell would not be on the roster as a PH. Plus, I think saying his arm is jello isn't really exemplifying his particular problem. The shoulder surgery seemed like a success with no complications during rehab. While he does have enough strength to bat, he doesn't have the strength to throw yet. And while he does have the strength to bat, he doesn't have the power back yet. That said, is he still a threat to go yard...well if Burke can hit consecutive HRs (one into the upper deck of Busch) and Ausmus can hit one into left-center of MM, I think Bagwell is capable of blasting one, however small the possibility is right now. Now I'm not debating Garner's use of Viz...

Bagwell is not the answer? Well yes, in fact, he is... he was the answer in two of our wins during the stretch run. Would he have been the answer last night or in nights to come...he might not have been last night, but I'd like to think he will offer something in this NLCS.

[TigerBait]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/rorschach23/THIS_THREAD_BLOWS.jpg

[tim562]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/rorschach23/THIS_THREAD_BLOWS.jpg

That is great.

[Xerobull]

But it looks like Burke is!!!