Astros @ Giants

[Castor27]

All game talk goes in here. Please do not give play by play. If you need play by play go to CBS, ESPN, or Yahoo.

Pitching Proabables:

8-5 Andy Pettitte (9-7, 2.58) vs. Jason Schmidt (7-6, 4.56) 9:15 on FSSW

8-6 Roy Oswalt (14-8, 2.40) vs. Noah Lowry (6-11, 4.59) 3:05 on FOX

8-7 Roger Clemens (10-4, 1.45) vs. Brett Tomko (7-11, 4.75) 3:05 on FSSW

[Groogrux]

W and a W and a W

[Svpernaut]

WWW!!

[The Real Shady]

WWW

I would like to see those slackers Andy and Roy lower their ERA's to the sub-2.00 level by the end of the season.

[francis 4 prez]

wow, we get the big 3 all in one series. and against 3 pitchers who somehow have almost the same high 4's ERA. that's gotta be one of the bigger ERA differentials in a series this year.

of course, if schmidt is on we could have trouble scoring like we've had lately. lets just hope things go according to form and we keep rolling, though i'll take 2 out of 3. 2 out of 3 from the big 3 and 1 of 2 from the rookies/backe the rest of the way and we're in the playoffs.

[Stack24]

W
W
W

But damn these 9 PM games.

[Joshfast]

Just keep winning series.

A sweep would be nice though - kick em' while they are down. The Giants have had a rough year.

[francis 4 prez]

does anyone know what we're doing with the rotation with the day off coming up? we've got the big 3 going up against the giants but our next series is against washington and if we keep a 5 man rotation, only pettitte would face them, whereas we could get pettitte and oswalt by skipping a rookie on the off day. with oswalt talking about being tired and clemens having minor back troubles, will we take the extra rest or do whatever we can to ensure the tiebreaker with washington (just need 1 win).

[Groogrux]

I think it all depends on what happens between now and then. If we can sweep the Jints and gain a couple of games, I can see them giving everyone a day off. If things go the other way, I can see them skipping a start to get both Pettitte and Oswalt in there.

[TMac640]

All game talk goes in here. Please do not give play by play. If you need play by play go to CBS, ESPN, or Yahoo.

Pitching Proabables:

8-5 Andy Pettitte (9-7, 2.58) vs. Jason Schmidt (7-6, 4.56) 9:15 on FSSW

8-6 Roy Oswalt (14-8, 2.40) vs. Noah Lowry (6-11, 4.59) 3:05 on FOX

8-7 Roger Clemens (10-4, 1.45) vs. Brett Tomko (7-11, 4.75) 3:05 on FSSW


WWWW

somehow we find a way to win the 4th game

[Svpernaut]

does anyone know what we're doing with the rotation with the day off coming up? we've got the big 3 going up against the giants but our next series is against washington and if we keep a 5 man rotation, only pettitte would face them, whereas we could get pettitte and oswalt by skipping a rookie on the off day. with oswalt talking about being tired and clemens having minor back troubles, will we take the extra rest or do whatever we can to ensure the tiebreaker with washington (just need 1 win).

Our rookies aren't the ones who need a day off. We have a "tired" pitcher in Roy O, and an old (and aching) pitcher in Roger... if we rest anyone it will be one of those two.

[Raven Lunatic]

Our rookies aren't the ones who need a day off. We have a "tired" pitcher in Roy O, and an old (and aching) pitcher in Roger... if we rest anyone it will be one of those two.

I don't think he was suggesting the rookies needed rest, just that with the day off, if we skip a rookie then we get an extra turn from one of our big 3, skipping one of the "weak links." I think Garner will give everyone the day off, even if Roy pitches well and feels good for most of his start. Clemens is a little banged up too, he just doesn't talk about it much, and Pettite has to be getting a little tired pitching so many innings after having an injury riddled season last year.

[Mr. Brightside]

Umm, WWW

No questions asked.

[RocketManJosh]

On ESPNNews it says "Breaking News: SF Giants announcer uses racial remarks"

Anyone know what they said before the game tonight?

[Groogrux]

As the Astros come up to bat, San Diego has taken the lead over the Nationals in the top of the 9th!

[Groogrux]

On ESPNNews it says "Breaking News: SF Giants announcer uses racial remarks"

Anyone know what they said before the game tonight?

Said yesterday: "brain-dead Caribbean hitters hacking at slop nightly." (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2126396)

[Mr. Brightside]

Vizquel is an fielding Hall of Famer

[francis 4 prez]

is the game on in austin? i've tried 23, 54, and 77. am i missing one?

[NIKEstrad]

is the game on in austin? i've tried 23, 54, and 77. am i missing one?

TV Guide says it'll come on FSSW (54) at 10, after the Rangers game.

[francis 4 prez]

TV Guide says it'll come on FSSW (54) at 10, after the Rangers game.

true, but right now it's blacked out. and the last time they did that i don't think i ever got the game. guess i'm out of luck tonight.

[liamrock]

Tonight and last night are reminding me of the Astros of old. Berkman can't BUY a clutch hit right now. Schmidt hasn't exactly been on his game and his stats show he only gets better as the game goes on.

[rikesh316]

What the hell is Willy thinking by bunting with a RISP. Makes no sense even though he is a decent bunter.

[liamrock]

Simply put, this is ugly baseball. What happened to that team that was playing so well last week? LOL! Oh well, no one ever said it was gonna be easy.

[bigballerj]

This team has been hitting like crap for quite a while. The exceptional performances by the starting pitchers kept it somewhat hidden. There was no-way Petitte, Oswalt, Clemens (he's proving me wrong) and others are going to keep shutting down the opposition every game.

[Groogrux]

By the way, Florida scares me.

Carry on.

[liamrock]

Yea, I agree, Florida is a dangerous team. They have arguably a better lineup than the Stros and their pitching, when healthy is nails. Fortunately they will have to battle it out w/ many matchups v fellow Wild Card teams Phills/Mutts/Nationals. I just hope that the past 2 nights are not a trend....the D-backs and Giants are not exactly the cream of the crop.

[LongTimeFan]

By the way, Florida scares me.

Carry on.

Tell your National's friend to take a vacation for a few weeks :mad:

[liamrock]

Wow....Ensberg looks mystified by Schmidt's changeup. Another 0 for the Astros through 6.

[Joshfast]

Don't worry about scoring runs - it's all about team chemistry.

[cwebbster]

Do you guys feel slump coming? God I hope not, they control their own destiny.....

[TMac640]

deeeeez nutz!

[MadMax]

By the way, Florida scares me.

Carry on.
me too.

schmidt was a buzzsaw last night. he's like that sometimes.

[Nick]

We never play well against the Giants... no matter what the makeup of our team (or their team) is.

Hopefully we can win these two games with our co-aces (and they don't have a former ace going for them like last night). If not, this homestand coming up next week will loom BIG.

[liamrock]

Well, I can understand struggling against Bonds and Co., but this Giants team is WEAK....Alou isn't even in the lineup and Lowry is a mediocre pitcher at best. To lose this series would be a big step back in my opinion.

[Kerfeld]

Hang on Roy, Please!!!

[The Real Shady]

Well, I guess our pitchers were due for a couple of bad starts.

[Kerfeld]

Looks like we are going to get blown out again on national TV

[The Real Shady]

Damn. Who would of thought we had a chance to lose this series with Pettite, Oswalt, and Clemens pitching.

[Kerfeld]

edit- we didnt get blown out in the Rangers game

[francis 4 prez]

this is like the opposite of our great run. before it seemed like we could have 2nd and 3rd and 1 out and get out of it. now people are stealing second on 0-2 counts with 2 outs and then getting driven in on bloop hits (and then the next guy promptly pops out no problem). and the offense is nonexistent. this blows. we better show up against the nationals.

[Stack24]

Looks like we are going to get blown out again on national TV

Good thing this is a regional game i believe and not everyone gets to see it...since the Yankees are on Fox as well right now lol.

[Uprising]

What's up with Oswalt today?!

This game is killing me, I wait all week to see a game and I get this crap. Come on Stros!!!!

4-0 Giants.

[Xenon]

I guess we should have gotten a bat...

[rikesh316]

Everett is the worst no.6 hitter in the game and Burke is the worst corner outfielder in the game.

[Kerfeld]

Come on Stros, Oswalt finally had a good inning! On a side note, Everytime we play in San Francisco now, all I think about is last year when we came back in the bottom of the Ninth to win

[TMac640]

This team has been hitting like crap for quite a while. The exceptional performances by the starting pitchers kept it somewhat hidden. There was no-way Petitte, Oswalt, Clemens (he's proving me wrong) and others are going to keep shutting down the opposition every game.


absolutely NAILED it.

give this man a round of applause.

[Nick]

Apparently, Giants fans are crediting the return of Mike Matheny as their catcher as the reason why their pitchers are turning it around (as they've shown so far these last two games).

I guess we all know the difference a catcher can make, with us having Ausmus turn guys like Astacio around... so I gotta respect that observation.

[Major]

Apparently, Giants fans are crediting the return of Mike Matheny as their catcher as the reason why their pitchers are turning it around (as they've shown so far these last two games).


Did they say anything else about it? Matheny was only out for 3 days though. He's played essentially the entire season. :confused:

[Nick]

Did they say anything else about it? Matheny was only out for 3 days though. He's played essentially the entire season. :confused:

That's all they said... Matheny was out because of the death of his grandfather, and since he would be calling the pitches against the Astros, our bats would be stifled.

[MadMax]

absolutely NAILED it.

give this man a round of applause.

uh..didn't they lead the league in runs scored in the month of July???

[Trader_Jorge]

No hitting at all against above average pitching. This doesn't bode well for the postseason, when rotations are shortened and the weak links fall away...

[Trader_Jorge]

uh..didn't they lead the league in runs scored in the month of July???

Where did you get this stat? Since the all-star break, the Astros have scored the 15th most runs in the league. If they led the league in July, wouldn't this be higher?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Splits&cut_type=182&conference=MLB&year=season_2005&sort=702

[MadMax]

Where did you get this stat? Since the all-star break, the Astros have scored the 15th most runs in the league. If they led the league in July, wouldn't this be higher?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Splits&cut_type=182&conference=MLB&year=season_2005&sort=702

i thought it was posted here...not sure of it. that's why i asked the question.

[Uprising]

WHOOP! Thankgod for the Ch.13 One Step Closer program on the Houston Texans! I LOVE YOU ABC 13!

IF it wasn't for them, I'd be one pissed off guy right now! :D

[Mr. Mooch]

Who else think Garner should skip or postpone Oswalt's next start with Backe returning? Seems like he's going to need more rest than he says.

[Major]

i thought it was posted here...not sure of it. that's why i asked the question.

As of July 26th, they had the #1 offense in July. Not sure how things may have changed the last week or so.

The team's in a bit of a slump which is a small cause of concern, but I wouldn't worry at this point. As was mentioned a couple of days ago by the announcers, the goal is to go 0.500 on the road and dominate at home. Barring a miracle, we'll be 2-3 on this road trip after today. Win tomorrow and we're "on pace". We've gotten a bit spoiled by the run we've been on the last 50 games or so.

[JunkyardDwg]

What is it w/ this season. Either everything is clickin' or everything is going wrong all at the same time.

[MadMax]

As of July 26th, they had the #1 offense in July. Not sure how things may have changed the last week or so.


and there you have it.

[Major]

From that link that TJ provided, something else that is striking is that this team just flat out stinks in day games - ERA, hitting, everything is just terrible in day games.

[Trader_Jorge]

i thought it was posted here...not sure of it. that's why i asked the question.
Riiiiiight.

You asked the question because you were refuting the assertion that we need bats. That's why you prefaced it with "uh..". Your question was rhetorical.

Moving on, it's obvious we need bats.

[MadMax]

Riiiiiight.

You asked the question because you were refuting the assertion that we need bats. That's why you prefaced it with "uh..". Your question was rhetorical.

Moving on, it's obvious we need bats.

ummm...i was right, TJ. i thought i remembered reading that here, and apparently i did. according to Major..i was right. if you guessed othewise...you were WRONG.

why do you only show up here when the 'stros lose, TJ?

[Puedlfor]

We've always sucked in Pac Bell, for whatever reason. C'est la vie.

[MadMax]

We've always sucked in Pac Bell, for whatever reason. C'est la vie.

we sucked at Candlestick as well. or at least it seemed that way.

[Trader_Jorge]

ummm...i was right, TJ. i thought i remembered reading that here, and apparently i did. according to Major..
Major said the Astros led the league in 'offense' through July 26th. How is this the same as leading the league in runs in the month of July?

Either way, the Astros are 15th in runs scored since the all-star break. That is the meaningful statistic, not yours. Looking at their July schedule before July 26, you can see that the runs are inflated because they destroyed the Pirates and Reds by scoring a ton of runs. The other games were pedestrian, including the sweep by the Cardinals in which the Astros scored 5 runs in 3 games.

[Bobblehead]

Jeez.....this games was very much like the games in May,
Decent pitching by the starters and ZERO run support.
And bad fielding is killing them....BIGGIO!!!!!!!!!

[MadMax]

Major said the Astros led the league in 'offense' through July 26th. How is this the same as leading the league in runs in the month of July?

whatever, TJ...it counters the point that they've been "hitting like crap for quite some time." depending of course on how short or long you wish to define "quite some time."

[Puedlfor]

We're 6th in the NL in runs scored post-All Star game. Could be better, could be worse.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

Missed the game. Was watching Andy Roddick beat up some Thai guy in two sets. Hot as hell out there too. Too bad we lost. But We had a great road trip regardless.

[Major]

We're 6th in the NL in runs scored post-All Star game. Could be better, could be worse.

Did TJ really include teams in the AL (which have an extra hitter, essentially) to make his argument?

[Major]

Major said the Astros led the league in 'offense' through July 26th. How is this the same as leading the league in runs in the month of July?

The first time I posted it - in the thread that MadMax referring to - I pointed out that it was runs scored.

[don grahamleone]

The first time I posted it - in the thread that MadMax referring to - I pointed out that it was runs scored.

Are you back?

[Trader_Jorge]

Look, MadMax's misrepresentation aside, this team needs more offense. When you cherry-pick the Astros' hot streak since the All-Star break and they are still 15th in the league in runs scored, then folks, that's just not going to cut it. When they revert back to their normal level, which appears to be happening, the production won't be there. It just won't. Would have been nice to have gone out and gotten a bat, but you know, that costs money. Sorry fans. Tillman, once you finish your gambling foray in Vegas, how about a little sports investment?

[rikesh316]

Fernando Nieve threw another complete game shutout for the Express yesterday. Thank god Moyer rejected that trade.

[Major]

Are you back?

Nope, I'm just a figment of your imagination.

[Major]

Look, MadMax's misrepresentation aside, this team needs more offense. When you cherry-pick the Astros' hot streak since the All-Star break and they are still 15th in the league in runs scored, then folks, that's just not going to cut it. When they revert back to their normal level, which appears to be happening, the production won't be there. It just won't. Would have been nice to have gone out and gotten a bat, but you know, that costs money. Sorry fans. Tillman, once you finish your gambling foray in Vegas, how about a little sports investment?

What is their normal level?

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3299560

<I>Watching them the last few days, it's hard to remember that for about a two-month stretch, the Astros scored more runs than any other NL team.</I>

The season has been about 4 months. According to that article, they had the best offense in the league for about two months (June and July, more or less), and we know that in the first two months, they had one of the worst offenses in the league.

As for cherry-picking the Astros' hot streak, it was you who started by picking the ASB and deciding the Astros were 15th in the MLB (ignoring the fact that this correlates to 6th in the NL). Even during your own time frame measure which you used to argue that they were terrible, they were well above average in the league.

They are a slump - these things happen. 4 games don't decide whether or not we need a bat.

[Nick]

I'm glad we're playing the Giants now in August, rather than the end of September. There's something about that team that just inspires the worst in us (as opposed to the rest of the league... since the Giants have an awful home record this year).

Good to see Burke with the extra pop in his bat (this time at the top of the lineup), but we still should have gotten a crooked #. I was also pretty happy that Biggio is getting a day off... Viz has been the odd man out in our hot streak, and he's a pretty important bat to have off the bench (essentially, he and Palmeiro have flip-flopped this year in terms of best overall pinch-hitter).

The only saving grace of this somewhat dissapointing road-trip is that all our "competitors" were pretty bad as well... Washington got swept, Phillies lost today, Florida lost yesterday, and the Cubs-Mets are playing each other. We still lost ground on a couple of teams (Florida/Phillies), but nobody in the NL seems to be playing all that well right now (which bodes well for all the NL East teams knocking each other out of the race).

[Surfguy]

Apparently, we did pick a really bad time to have a series against San Fran after the "controversy". Now, they decided to take the sh*t out on us as innocent by-standers. LOL

But, we always suck at San Francisco. I certainly don't get it. It just is.

[liamrock]

Wow....I can certainly understand Jason Schmidt and Noah Lowry...but Brian Cooper? The guy has not won a MLB game since 2000! This team sucks....I mean, who are we kidding? The Giants are the WORST team in ALL of MLB at home and they are on their way to sweeping Pettite/Oswalt/Clemens. Come up with whatever excuse you want (ie Stros always struggle in SF/every team goes through slumps/not our weekend) but the Astros are a TERRIBLE offensive team. My god, I can understand struggling v the Cards pitchers....but the GIANTS?! I am a diehard, but I'm dumfounded as to how a team could suck so bad hitting the ball and how their mangement could be so naive as to think the hot streak wouldn't end and they wouldn't need to possibly pay a premium price for a veteran hitter. I mean, Matt Lawton looks pretty darn good right about now!

[Major]

I mean, Matt Lawton looks pretty darn good right about now!

Absolutely. Since the trade, he's batting .238 with no power. He would have singlehandedly revived our offense!

[liamrock]

Absolutely. Since the trade, he's batting .238 with no power. He would have singlehandedly revived our offense!

What about Randy Winn? WHat are his stats thus far? He certainly has shown something in this series.

[Nick]

"George is getting upset!!!"

[Major]

What about Randy Winn? WHat are his stats thus far? He certainly has shown something in this series.

He's been pretty hot since the trade, both in avg and power. 0.368 AVG / 1.000+ OPS.

[Groogrux]

That is the meaningful statistic, not yours.

Of course, the most meaningful statistic is your wins and losses. Right now, we've got enough of one and not enough of the other to put us in the playoffs if they started today. I'm still trying to figure out why you cannot be happy about that. Are you a Rangers fan?

[Groogrux]

What about Randy Winn? WHat are his stats thus far? He certainly has shown something in this series.

According to the Seattle paper, we tried to get him with Moyer, but Moyer rejected the deal.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/234745_moyer01.html

[The Real Shady]

Getting dominated again by bad pitching. :(

[Nick]

Well we caught a break since they now have to take out the amazing Brian Cooper... :rolleyes:

I must say... I'm dissapointed with the offense, not so much because we're lacking personel (after all, Berkman and Ensberg have been pretty bad this trip in the big-time RISP opportunities), but for the approach they're all taking today.

Cooper looked like a guy where you could severely look for your pitch, and then fight off everything with 2 strikes (since his stuff isn't overpowering to strike you out). The guys looked to take that approach in the first inning... but since then, they've been pressing all over the place.

Teams that are worse offensively (yes... there are actually teams out there), but with a better approach at the plate than us would probably have been better off today.

[Groogrux]

Milo jinxed us today by talking **** about the pitcher before the game started.

[The Real Shady]

Great job Berkman, now Clemens has a chance for the win.

[Svpernaut]

Look at our boys hustle!

[Nick]

Great job Berkman, now Clemens has a chance for the win.

Burke deserves some love as well... I actually think he has a much better approach at the top of the lineup (where he knows he'll see some strikes) as opposed to the bottom of the lineup where pitchers can afford to nibble (and the team's overall intensity is .... "ah well... we've got Ausmus and the pitcher... nothing much is gonna happen this inning anyways.")

[Svpernaut]

God bless you Lane! No need for Lidge just yet Brownie :-)

[Nick]

Lane says "Kapaya!" to the road trip.

[Groogrux]

How's that for some clutch hitting. 5-run two out rally!!!

[weakfromtoday]

One more day for Roger. One more outing of 7 innings and zero earned runs. Nice.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

kaboom, there goes the dynamite!

[Svpernaut]

How's that for some clutch hitting. 5-run two out rally!!!

Was four runs, but still nice :-)

[Nick]

Its been very rare this season that both Lane and Burke have looked good on the same day. Now today, they've provided nearly 100% of the offense.

If we are to make the playoffs, those two will be the absolute keys... given that Morgan and Lance should continue their decent seasons.

[Groogrux]

Was four runs, but still nice :-)

I was hoping for another run. :D

[HAYJON02]

damnn i walk upstairs for 5 minutes and were up by 4 all of the sudden! :mad:

wait thats awesome!

[Air Langhi]

Roger clemens might be having one of the greatest seasons ever in the history of baseball if he keeps this up. His eith 8-th cy-young is getting closer.

[ruddy5]

ohhhh we now can take a breath. thanks god for that burke's double :) :D

[Svpernaut]

impressive look in the 9th.

[Svpernaut]

Someone buy Burke a damned shinguard... he does that all the time.

[don grahamleone]

Roger clemens might be having one of the greatest seasons ever in the history of baseball if he keeps this up. His eith 8-th cy-young is getting closer.

This talk about Chris Carpenter is confusing me. The guy plays for a team that scores like 7 runs a game on average... so what if he's won 16 games. Does Carpenter have a case for winning the cy-young?

[Major]

This talk about Chris Carpenter is confusing me. The guy plays for a team that scores like 7 runs a game on average... so what if he's won 16 games. Does Carpenter have a case for winning the cy-young?

Same case that got Roger the Cy-Young over Randy Johnson last year.

[Major]

Same case that got Roger the Cy-Young over Randy Johnson last year.

Whoops - hit submit too soon. Whether its right or wrong, voters seem to take into account wins... so unless the voters change their attitudes soon, Roger will have that going against him. Although the whole "historical season" aspect may be enough to overcome it.

[ruddy5]

Same case that got Roger the Cy-Young over Randy Johnson last year.

this is not the same situation. Randy won 12 or 14 game last year and lose like 12 games.

[Mr. Brightside]

Oh yea, Lidge like a boss.

[ruddy5]

light out lidge! :D :D :D :D

[Puedlfor]

this is not the same situation. Randy won 12 or 14 game last year and lose like 12 games.


To be fair, it kind of is. Roger's wins got him the award over Randy's superior performance because Randy didn't get any support.

Where Roger this year has the advantage Randy didn't is that he's on course for one of the most insanely brilliant and consistent seasons in history. Randy was very good last year, but this year Roger is just incredible.

[francis 4 prez]

this is not the same situation. Randy won 12 or 14 game last year and lose like 12 games.


well then it's the same as clemens beating garcia in 2001 with the 9th best ERA even though garcia was leading the league in ERA. and garcia had a very good record (18 and something), but since clemens was 20-3 with all of that yankee run support, the voters gave it to him for some reason.

clemens should easily win it over carpenter at this point if the voters were rational (i don't understand how he's doing it after not being this good for a while, but all he does is go 7 innings and give up 0 or 1 runs and he has a nice win/loss at 11-4), but history says they should give it to carpenter b/c he's got a nasty ERA and a nasty amount of wins and pitches a lot of innings and plays on a very good team.

of course, clemens has been so amazing, and is now in the 1.30's, that it might be impossible to ignore. either way, count on the voters continuing their love affair with clemens and giving him another cy young.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

carpenter has been awesome this year.

[Uprising]

WHOOOHOOOO!

Lane is da man against the Giants!

The 8th and 9th were amazing! :D :D :D

[DaDakota]

2 games up still....but the Marlins are 1 back in the loss column.

I would prefer to get about 5-7 up.

:)

DD

[kaleidosky]

This talk about Chris Carpenter is confusing me. The guy plays for a team that scores like 7 runs a game on average... so what if he's won 16 games. Does Carpenter have a case for winning the cy-young?


How is it confusing you? I love the stros...but Carpenter is ridiculous this year. He's leading in wins, 2nd in ERA (with a GREAT ERA, mind you...just not as incredible as Roger's), but he leads Roger in basically every other category. K's, CG's, not to mention he beat Roger straight up.. I want Roger to get the Cy, but Carpenter has a pretty airtight case over Roger right now (though not by much).

I heard on one of the ESPN shows that if you take away one of Carpenter's bad outings, then his ERA is a lot closer to Roger's.. so basically he's one bad start away from equalling Roger's ERA, and leading him across the board otherwise..

[Nick]

I heard on one of the ESPN shows that if you take away one of Carpenter's bad outings, then his ERA is a lot closer to Roger's.. so basically he's one bad start away from equalling Roger's ERA, and leading him across the board otherwise..

Yes... but the bottom line is that his ERA is not close to Roger's. I agree that Carpenter has had one helluva season... but in the end the voters will vote for Roger (with possible east coast bias), so as Astro fans, we shouldn't really need to argue it (that's what Cards fans are doing right now... with vehement anger).

A couple of interesting ways to look at it:

1.) If Carpenter and Clemens switch teams, things would be made a lot more clearer. Roger would have more wins, the same fabulous ERA, and maybe perhaps he has just one complete game playing with that offense that can put up 7 runs a game for him (I wager it would be one of Roger's earlier starts where we lost three straight games 1-0). If Carpenter was on the Astros, he has the same ERA, but definitely fewer wins, and fewer IP as a result of not being able to finish all these games because of possible lack of run support and needed to be pinch-hit for.

In that case, Roger wins in a landlslide... and its simply based on his wins and ERA. Thus, a lot of the #'s "across the board" are largely impacted by the team you play for, and I doubt the voters are going to do a systematic analysis when figuring out who they want to win. Carp's K's, IP and CG's are far less sexy if he was on the Astros, and as I said before, they would be less anyways because he's not playing for a team that scores as many runs for him.

2.) Its Clemens award to LOSE. That's how the voters give these awards out to the bonafied for-sure HOFers. In the NBA, it was always Michael Jordan's MVP to lose, unless another future HOFer had a career year. With the MVP in baseball, its been Barry Bonds' award to lose even in years where his team didn't make the playoffs. Until Clemens either becomes ineffective, or hangs it up, he'll always get the benefit of the doubt regarding the award... especially against a guy (Carpenter) who is having his first breakthrough year after a # of injury-plagued seasons.

And has Clemens pitched bad enough to lose the award this year?... hell no.

[RocketManJosh]

In other great news ... went to the Mets game in NY to boo Beltran, and I wasn't the only one booing him.

He scored a couple runs early off an error and some bad play by the Cubs, but late in the game he hit into a double-play and everyone in the crowd booed and said, "Theres the Beltran we know," and "Give us our money back Carlos!" :D I really enjoyed that part of the game ... Plus the sCrUBS losing made me feel good

[candlegreen]

I love watching Clemens and I love the Astros, but it's too much to say Carpenter didn't back up his case for the Cy Young this year. One of the stats that glares out is the fact that he beat Clemens 3-0 that one game. I was hoping like nothing else that Atlanta will pull out with the win yesterday, but Eckstein hit a Walk Off Grand Slam. What it comes down to is that the voters will not pay attention to every single game and how the games were won. They look at stats, and sadly, Carpenter's stats are seemingly more impressive. Clemens has the ERA unlike anything for the past few decades, but a few wins here, more CGs, Ks, etc.... That's hard to overturn. Also put in the fact that he beat Dontrelle head to head wouldn't hurt his case either. It's pretty amazing actually, having Dontrelle, Carpenter, and Clemens all pitch on the same day so many times in a row. Maybe that will get something started in order to get Clemens over the top. A few bad outings by Carpenter coupled with great outings by Clemens should catch the voter's attentions some.

[Buck Turgidson]

They are a slump - these things happen. 4 games don't decide whether or not we need a bat.
Thought you'd find this interesting:

During the last 46 games of 2004, the Astros scored 265 runs (5.76 r/g) and allowed 199 (4.33 r/g). 36-10 record (.783)

During their last 46 games, the Astros have scored 235 runs (5.10 r/g) and allowed 144 (3.13 r/g). 33-13 record (.718)

League average runs scored/allowed per game in '04 - 4.64, '05 ytd - 4.48

Astros Runs Scored/Game vs. Runs Allowed/Game '05
April - 3.82 vs. 3.64
May - 3.38 vs. 5.14
June - 4.65 vs. 3.42
July/Aug - 4.94 vs. 3.03

[The Cat]

not to mention he beat Roger straight up..

One of the stats that glares out is the fact that he beat Clemens 3-0 that one game.

Carpenter might win the Cy Young because of wins (irrelevant), but if any voter points out that game, they should have their vote revoked. Clemens was facing one of the greatest lineups in recent history... Carpenter was facing one of the bottom offenses in the NL and an offense that only scored 5 runs the entire series. "Head-to-head" pitching matchups are overrated... they're only relevant if the pitchers are facing two comparable lineups. In the case of the Cards and Stros, it's not even close. Furthermore, Clemens only gave up one earned run that game... two came on the error. imo, the fact that Clemens gave up one earned run that game against the Cards offense is more impressive than Carpenter getting the shutout.

How is it confusing you? I love the stros...but Carpenter is ridiculous this year. He's leading in wins, 2nd in ERA (with a GREAT ERA, mind you...just not as incredible as Roger's), but he leads Roger in basically every other category. K's, CG's, not to mention he beat Roger straight up.. I want Roger to get the Cy, but Carpenter has a pretty airtight case over Roger right now (though not by much).

I heard on one of the ESPN shows that if you take away one of Carpenter's bad outings, then his ERA is a lot closer to Roger's.. so basically he's one bad start away from equalling Roger's ERA, and leading him across the board otherwise..

Those categories, however, are far, far less relevant than ERA. A pitcher goes out there with the intention of allowing the other team to score as few runs as possible. That's his job. Sure, it's great if he can get a lot of strikeouts. But the first priority is to allow as few runs as possible, and Roger does that at a much greater rate than Carpenter. Almost a full run better.

Also, while I'm sure Carpenter had a bad start, one bad start doesn't equal almost a full run in ERA... so to say it would equal Roger's ERA isn't accurate at all. But, the thing is, every pitcher would like to take that one bad start out of their ERA. Clemens gave up 4 runs in 5 innings against STL in June... imagine what his ERA could be if not for that start! It's silly to say "his ERA would be this if not for one start" unless you're taking the worst start away from Clemens as well.

[gwayneco]

How is it confusing you? I love the stros...but Carpenter is ridiculous this year. He's leading in wins, 2nd in ERA (with a GREAT ERA, mind you...just not as incredible as Roger's), but he leads Roger in basically every other category. K's, CG's, not to mention he beat Roger straight up.. I want Roger to get the Cy, but Carpenter has a pretty airtight case over Roger right now (though not by much).

I heard on one of the ESPN shows that if you take away one of Carpenter's bad outings, then his ERA is a lot closer to Roger's.. so basically he's one bad start away from equalling Roger's ERA, and leading him across the board otherwise..

The single best way to measure a pitcher's performance is a stat called "Pitching Runs" or "Runs Saved Above Average". It's defined as:

PR (Pitching Runs)
Invented by John Thorn and Pete Palmer, this is a measure of the number of runs a pitcher saved compared to average. The formula is league-average RA/IP minus park-adjusted RA/IP, times total innings pitched. This is the same formula as Lee Sinins' RSAA (see below).
from - http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/

This stat factors in Carpenter's edge in IP. so it makes for a better comparison than simply ERA alone. Here are the NL leaders in this category:
Clemens - 51
Carpenter - 42
Oswalt -37

Pettitte is 8th with 26. Note also that Oswalt is closer to Carpenter than Carpenter is to Clemens.

For more info, see - http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/stats2005/pitch/nl/

[Major]

Whether or not it should be, the Cy-Young, like the MVP, is always a mix of individual and team accomplishments. It's the reason why Randy Johnson didn't win it last year and others have not won in previously. If it were simply about the best individual performance, it should be given to the ERA leader every year.

As a team award, Carpenter has a pretty good argument. His team is 70-41 overall (63.1% WP). In games Carpenter has started, the team is 19-4 (82.6%). In all other games, they are 51-37 (58%).

For Clemens, the team is 60-51 overall (54%). In Clemens' starts, it's 13-10 (56.5%), and in other starts, we're 47-41 (53.4%).

The difference is extreme. While StL is a better overall team already, Carpenter takes them to ridiculous levels of success - Clemens has not, whether his fault or not. We win about at the same rate when Clemens starts as we do in other games, oddly enough. Carpenter also has the advantage of arm strength - he can consistently pitch 8 or 9 innings, while Clemens cannot these days. So he adds "value" there.

Realistically, the award is Clemens' if the season were to end today - his ERA is too noticable to be ignored. But the award will be won or lost over the next 2 months. Like MVP, a phenomenal or mediocre September can be the difference, especially now that its essentially a two man race with Willis falling flat a bit.

On a side note, I see a lot of the "the goal of a pitcher is to hold the other team down" - this isn't necessarily the case. The goal of a pitcher is to help your team win, and in most cases, holding the other team to as few runs as possible is the best way. However, another way to help your team win is to give them innings and rest your bullpen. If you have a 10-0 lead, you challenge hitters more in the hopes of throwing fewer pitches, getting out of innings quickly, and getting through more innings. In the process, you're not worried if you give up some single runs here and there, so in that circumstance, runs allowed is not the ideal measure of how effective the pitcher was.

[ROXRAN]

You almost get the impression, Clemens knows he is so close, and the intensity, and competiveness will only benefit the team...

[Harrisment]

Great off night for the Stros tonight. The Brewers and Cubs both lost, and best of all Florida lost both games of a doubleheader to the Rockies!