Open Mike: Beltran simply stealing from Mets

[nWo34Life]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7632897/

The Mets made two big moves in the free-agent market during the offseason. One, Pedro Martinez, has been one of the best deals anyone made. The other, Carlos Beltran, has turned out to be a disaster. Instead of paying $119 million over seven years, Omar Minaya should have picked up a cocker spaniel at the local Humane Society. He’d have got pretty much the same thing.

Mets fans hailed the deal when it was made. Here, at last, was a big bat in the middle of the lineup, somebody who could carry the team to the top of the NL East. That was in January. Seven months later, the same fans are booing him with the sort of gusto once reserved for John Rocker.[/b]

Beltran, who is just 28, came to the Mets with a pretty good resume. With the exception of 2000, when injuries limited him to 98 games, he has been good for 100-plus RBI and 100-plus runs every year since 1999, his first full season in the bigs.

Then he signed the monster free-agent contract, and look at his numbers now. He’s on pace for maybe 75-80 RBI and even fewer runs. In the past four years, he’s stolen between 31 and 42 bases a season. This year he has seven. In the same period, his home run totals have climbed from 24 to 38. This year he has 12 and is going to have to pick up the pace just to reach 20.

Mets fans are used to this. They’ve seen an unending stream of big-name free agents come through, from George Foster to Mo Vaughn, only to flop in Flushing. The surprise isn’t that Beltran is playing so badly, but that Martinez is playing so well.

But the Mets are stuck, as Beltran has reminded them. After a particularly poor performance earlier this week, he said the fans could boo all they want, but he’s going to be around for seven years anyway.

Some long-term deals work out for everybody, but there are too many like Beltran’s that never deliver what’s promised. You can start with Kevin Brown as Exhibit A on that list. And as long as you’re talking about the Yankees, you could add Jason Giambi. Despite his recent revival, he hasn’t been worth $18 million annually since coming to the Bronx.

[kevwun]

How's that no trade clause taste now, Omar?

[MadMax]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7632897/

The Mets made two big moves in the free-agent market during the offseason. One, Pedro Martinez, has been one of the best deals anyone made. The other, Carlos Beltran, has turned out to be a disaster. Instead of paying $119 million over seven years, Omar Minaya should have picked up a cocker spaniel at the local Humane Society. He’d have got pretty much the same thing.

Mets fans hailed the deal when it was made. Here, at last, was a big bat in the middle of the lineup, somebody who could carry the team to the top of the NL East. That was in January. Seven months later, the same fans are booing him with the sort of gusto once reserved for John Rocker.[/b]

Beltran, who is just 28, came to the Mets with a pretty good resume. With the exception of 2000, when injuries limited him to 98 games, he has been good for 100-plus RBI and 100-plus runs every year since 1999, his first full season in the bigs.

Then he signed the monster free-agent contract, and look at his numbers now. He’s on pace for maybe 75-80 RBI and even fewer runs. In the past four years, he’s stolen between 31 and 42 bases a season. This year he has seven. In the same period, his home run totals have climbed from 24 to 38. This year he has 12 and is going to have to pick up the pace just to reach 20.

Mets fans are used to this. They’ve seen an unending stream of big-name free agents come through, from George Foster to Mo Vaughn, only to flop in Flushing. The surprise isn’t that Beltran is playing so badly, but that Martinez is playing so well.

But the Mets are stuck, as Beltran has reminded them. After a particularly poor performance earlier this week, he said the fans could boo all they want, but he’s going to be around for seven years anyway.

Some long-term deals work out for everybody, but there are too many like Beltran’s that never deliver what’s promised. You can start with Kevin Brown as Exhibit A on that list. And as long as you’re talking about the Yankees, you could add Jason Giambi. Despite his recent revival, he hasn’t been worth $18 million annually since coming to the Bronx.


yeah, i thought the little reminder from beltran that they're stuck with him for 7 years probably wasn't the smartest comment ever. not exactly endearing. :)

suck on, mets!!!

btw -- I demand an apology from TraderJorge regarding that no-trade clause! :)

[candlegreen]

What more can you say about this guy? Blame Boras all you want, as I will too... but Beltran's attitude is not one to look up to as well.

This guy is just feeling sorry for himself or something. First, he tries to lie to himself and say that our booing doesn't bother him. He went on to try to buy the media saying that the T-shirts are great if they're for a good cause. He proceeded to struggle for 3 out of the 4 games in MMP. Now he's antagonizing the Mets fans with such a remark... unbelievable!

[Major]

What more can you say about this guy? Blame Boras all you want, as I will too... but Beltran's attitude is not one to look up to as well.

This guy is just feeling sorry for himself or something. First, he tries to lie to himself and say that our booing doesn't bother him. He went on to try to buy the media saying that the T-shirts are great if they're for a good cause. He proceeded to struggle for 3 out of the 4 games in MMP. Now he's antagonizing the Mets fans with such a remark... unbelievable!

What do you think he should do? Say "yes, the booing really bothers me - I wish they'd stop!"? What athlete (or person in general) do you know that's not going to get defensive when attacked?

I see him as going about his job. If people ask him about the booing, he responds. Big deal.

Honestly, my guess is that 4 years from now (at the end of Pedro's contract), Beltran will be the one closer to being worth the money (if anyone is really worth $18M / yr), and Pedro will not.

[MadMax]

What do you think he should do? Say "yes, the booing really bothers me - I wish they'd stop!"? What athlete (or person in general) do you know that's not going to get defensive when attacked?

I see him as going about his job. If people ask him about the booing, he responds. Big deal.

Honestly, my guess is that 4 years from now (at the end of Pedro's contract), Beltran will be the one closer to being worth the money (if anyone is really worth $18M / yr), and Pedro will not.


your probably right. but given where guys like pujols and vlad are situated in pay scale...he'll never be "worth the money." he's not in that class of players.

[Uprising]

How's that no trade clause taste now, Omar?


:D

I'm glad we didn't get him, but I still hate him for ruining our off season.

[Major]

your probably right. but given where guys like pujols and vlad are situated in pay scale...he'll never be "worth the money." he's not in that class of players.

I agree - it doesn't look like it, certainly. He had progressed pretty consistently over his first 5 or 6 years that if he could have continued and become a gold-glove 40/40 guy, I think he'd be worth Vlad/Pujols type money. But he doesn't seem on that path anymore. Yesterday, he misplayed a fly ball (seemingly laziness) that cost the Mets 2 or 3 runs in the 9th... that's just stuff he never did with us. It's very strange.

[MadMax]

I agree - it doesn't look like it, certainly. He had progressed pretty consistently over his first 5 or 6 years that if he could have continued and become a gold-glove 40/40 guy, I think he'd be worth Vlad/Pujols type money. But he doesn't seem on that path anymore. Yesterday, he misplayed a fly ball (seemingly laziness) that cost the Mets 2 or 3 runs in the 9th... that's just stuff he never did with us. It's very strange.

that's the second time he's done that in about 2 weeks.

[Baqui99]

I agree - it doesn't look like it, certainly. He had progressed pretty consistently over his first 5 or 6 years that if he could have continued and become a gold-glove 40/40 guy, I think he'd be worth Vlad/Pujols type money. But he doesn't seem on that path anymore. Yesterday, he misplayed a fly ball (seemingly laziness) that cost the Mets 2 or 3 runs in the 9th... that's just stuff he never did with us. It's very strange.

Agreed. Given his breakout performance in last year's playoffs, you could definitely make a case for Beltran's name in the same bucket as Pujols, Vlado, etc. The reality is that Carlos earned himself an extra $40-50 million dollars on last year's playoffs alone. Remember, he only hit .258 during his regular season stint with the Astros. I'd say his numbers so far this year are a pretty accurate reflection of what the Mets can expect for the next 6 years.

[mateo]

They have these "Come See The New Mets" signs all over New York, and there was this one near my office that says to the effect of "Come And See Beltran Hit a Passing Airplane With a Home Run!!!"

It used to piss me off every morning. Now it makes me laugh.

[candlegreen]

What do you think he should do? Say "yes, the booing really bothers me - I wish they'd stop!"? What athlete (or person in general) do you know that's not going to get defensive when attacked?



Not exactly, but he could and should acknowledge that he cares about anything else but the money. In doing so, maybe show some compassion to the fans and expect more of himself. He could say that he expects more of himself and will work hard to do so.

But instead, he just says that he'll be here 7 years no matter what. That sounds more like a, "I got the money either way and there's nothing you or anyone else could do about it; therefore, why should I bother trying harder?" I don't blame him for being defensive, nor do I blame him for taking more money; he just seems to have the worst way in going about it.

[Groogrux]

Not exactly, but he could and should acknowledge that he cares about anything else but the money. In doing so, maybe show some compassion to the fans and expect more of himself. He could say that he expects more of himself and will work hard to do so.

But instead, he just says that he'll be here 7 years no matter what. That sounds more like a, "I got the money either way and there's nothing you or anyone else could do about it; therefore, why should I bother trying harder?" I don't blame him for being defensive, nor do I blame him for taking more money; he just seems to have the worst way in going about it.

Exactly. We've all heard players who are slumping badly say things like, "yeah, I'm terrible out there" or other similar things.

I just want to remind him that he'd have been a king here. Had he resigned, he'd be #2 with a bullet on the Houston Sports Legends list with a real opportunity to take over Dream's top spot if he helped us win a World Series. But, he took his "no-trade clause" (in the words of Novak...that is BULL****!) and extra money to play in a city that will boo at the first sign of not living up to the contract.

I would also like to thank him for leaving. :)

[candlegreen]

I agree - it doesn't look like it, certainly. He had progressed pretty consistently over his first 5 or 6 years that if he could have continued and become a gold-glove 40/40 guy, I think he'd be worth Vlad/Pujols type money. But he doesn't seem on that path anymore. Yesterday, he misplayed a fly ball (seemingly laziness) that cost the Mets 2 or 3 runs in the 9th... that's just stuff he never did with us. It's very strange.


It's also a great possibility that this leg injury is changing the way he plays. If it hurts, people tend to favor it and find ways around it. For a speedy center fielder, he might try to glide to the ball moreso than moving his legs as much.

Also, playing in NY seems to generate a lot more criticism than elsewhere. From what I've gathered, he really doesn't seem to take criticism in strides. But in all seriousness, work is work; life is life. If he is to take that amount of money from NY, then he'll have to work hard. I get the feeling that he's his own worst critic; making it hard for him because he's trying to do too much. Maybe once he figure out that he can not go for a HR on every pitch, he'll be a better player and the "5-tool" player that he is labeled as. But meanwhile, don't expect my to cheer for him.

[Svpernaut]

They have these "Come See The New Mets" signs all over New York, and there was this one near my office that says to the effect of "Come And See Beltran Hit a Passing Airplane With a Home Run!!!"

It used to piss me off every morning. Now it makes me laugh.

lol... nice.

[superden]

:D

I'm glad we didn't get him, but I still hate him for ruining our off season.

oh well, at least we got willy now. im quite content that beltran left. i think he will do better next season (bc if he doesnt, i think that will just be the end to beltran), but i am suuuuure enjoying his LONG slump.

[Major]

Not exactly, but he could and should acknowledge that he cares about anything else but the money. In doing so, maybe show some compassion to the fans and expect more of himself. He could say that he expects more of himself and will work hard to do so.

He did say all of that. Look at the quotes from all the articles when he was in town. He said all of those things, about working hard, staying patient, staying focused, etc.

But instead, he just says that he'll be here 7 years no matter what.

He didn't <I>just</I> say that. That was one of many things he's said, but of course it's going to get printed more and separately because that's what sells.

[Willis25]

http://gallery.phillyburbs.com/photos/115/147.aspx

[Svpernaut]

http://gallery.phillyburbs.com/photos/115/147.aspx

100% Mole Free!

[candlegreen]

He didn't <I>just</I> say that. That was one of many things he's said, but of course it's going to get printed more and separately because that's what sells.

But never once could I find him say anything about having to work harder. He never acknowledged that maybe it's him. He mentioned that he's not where he needs to be, but he doesn't sound like he's willing to change his everyday attitude towards his style of play or his fans. Sure, his style of play is what brought the Astros to where they were in the playoffs last year, but this is his recent regular season stats:

2003: BA: .303 OBP: .389 AB:521 Hits:160 Runs:102 HRs:26 RBIs:100 Walks:72 Ks:81 SBs:41 CS:4

2004(AL): BA:.278 OBP:.367 AB:266 Hits:74 Runs:51 HRs:15 RBIs:51 Walks:37 Ks:44 SBs:14 CS:3

2004(NL) BA:.258 OBP:.368 AB:333 Hits:86 Runs:70 HRs:23 RBIs:53 Walks:55 Ks57 SBs:28 CS:0

2005: BS:.264 OBP:.316 AB:397 Hits:105 Runs:50 HR13: RBIs:57 Walks:41 Ks69 SBs:7 CS:2

A slump is one thing, but his numbers are declining by a huge margin.

and to keep it short.. just the BA for the months this year:
April: .284 May:.304 June:.198 July:.290 August:200

He needs to put the blame solely on himself first. He lets the fans bother him, etc. If he can just stop putting this "Me vs. The World" attitude, maybe he can do something where at least his own fans can cheer for him.

I don't hate him, I just love the Astros. Furthermore, his attitude is anything but pleasing to anyone outside of baseball. Regardless of how many times he tries to say the right thing, and believe me, most of it is somewhat scripted, he still needs to realize that his own fans are helping in paying that money. If they boo him, he should step up to his own failures, because he's leaving his own team with much to desire.

[TMac640]

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/66/92/THEFIGHTINGCHEYENNE/60/5c2.jpg


HOWS IT TASTE MOTHER ****ER??

[ROCKSS]

I loved the guy when he was here, so its hard for me to talk bad about him just yet. Carlos seemed like a guy who was best suited for a smaller market team and going to NY may prove to be a costly mistake for both parties. Its still awfully early to be hard on the guy becuase even A-Rod had a problem adjusting to the NY spotlight. The 1 thing that I am happy about is that we didnt take on that huge contract, becuase no matter how good anyone is the knock will always be that he isnt worth the money. I love A-Rod but no way one player is worth that much money

[Trader_Jorge]

btw -- I demand an apology from TraderJorge regarding that no-trade clause! :)

How foolish. Who is to say how Beltran would have performed in Houston -- a smaller market with less intense media scrutiny -- with the benefit of playing in Minute Maid and batting in front of Berkman? Drayton completely botched the negotiating process, and Beltran's performance this season has nothing to do with that. As a result of Drayton botching the process, we were left with no Plan B and as a result, we are in desperate need of a bat today.

Remind me, what am I apologizing for again?

Uh, thanks.

[Groogrux]

We are also in first place in the wild card standings today. I'm sorry that you cannot be happy about how the plan B has worked out instead of harping on the botched negotiations of a player who has a OBP lower than Brad Ausmus.

I'm actually quite positive that you are not even an Astros fan. Just a troll.

[T_in_Charlotte]

To add to the above points, has anyone noticed how crappy the year has been for potential Plan B targets Moises Alou and Steve Finley? Yes, the Astros need another big stick in the line-up, but I doubt any of those guys would have made a big difference.

[Joshfast]

To add to the above points, has anyone noticed how crappy the year has been for potential Plan B targets Moises Alou and Steve Finley? Yes, the Astros need another big stick in the line-up, but I doubt any of those guys would have made a big difference.

and perma-injured JD Drew.

[bobrek]

How foolish. Who is to say how Beltran would have performed in Houston -- a smaller market with less intense media scrutiny -- with the benefit of playing in Minute Maid and batting in front of Berkman? Drayton completely botched the negotiating process, and Beltran's performance this season has nothing to do with that. As a result of Drayton botching the process, we were left with no Plan B and as a result, we are in desperate need of a bat today.

Remind me, what am I apologizing for again?

Uh, thanks.

Who is to say that the Astros would be in playoff contention today had they not had the "disastrous" offseason? All things considered, I'd rather have THIS team 2 games in the WC lead than had them sign a player or two in the offseason - no telling where they'd be - perhaps in first, perhaps in last.

Regardless of how you spin it, according to you the Astros had a "disastrous" off-season. That has NOT changed. They have still had that "disastrous" off-season, yet here they are, in the midst of another playoff run.

[bobrek]

... Drayton completely botched the negotiating process, and Beltran's performance this season has nothing to do with that....

Since you continually blame McLane for "botching the Beltran negotiations", does McLane get any credit for signing Berkman to a long term deal?

[Puedlfor]

I think it's cute that people think a no-trade clause scuttled a nine-figure deal. Like Beltran is some sort of magical faerie who needed his precious no-trade clause or else he wouldn't sign.

[Major]

I think it's cute that people think a no-trade clause scuttled a nine-figure deal. Like Beltran is some sort of magical faerie who needed his precious no-trade clause or else he wouldn't sign.

If the offers were otherwise equal in someone's mind, then little things like no-trade clauses can be a deciding factor. If they weren't, then no team would ever give a player one, since it would never be the deciding factor in a contract and only hurts the team.

If a player wants stability in life and doesn't want to get stuck spending three year's in a random dump of a city, then a no-trade clause can definitely be extremely important.

[MadMax]

How foolish. Who is to say how Beltran would have performed in Houston -- a smaller market with less intense media scrutiny -- with the benefit of playing in Minute Maid and batting in front of Berkman? Drayton completely botched the negotiating process, and Beltran's performance this season has nothing to do with that. As a result of Drayton botching the process, we were left with no Plan B and as a result, we are in desperate need of a bat today.

Remind me, what am I apologizing for again?

Uh, thanks.

i can't believe you bit!!! :D

i personally give Drayton the highest marks for having the amazing baseball foresight to know that Beltran was to be overpaid by the Mets.....and to know that Taveras would be outperforming him as a rookie. :)

[T_in_Charlotte]

i can't believe you bit!!! :D

i personally give Drayton the highest marks for having the amazing baseball foresight to know that Beltran was to be overpaid by the Mets.....and to know that Taveras would be outperforming him as a rookie. :)

I would give Drayton credit for Beltran, but there is no way he had any idea how well Taveras would do. I'm sure he crossed every finger and said every prayer he had, hoping that Taveras would pan out.

[VesceySux]

Not only is Beltran stealing money, he's now resorted to hurting his own teammates.

RIP Mike Cameron's cheekbones

[MadMax]

I would give Drayton credit for Beltran, but there is no way he had any idea how well Taveras would do. I'm sure he crossed every finger and said every prayer he had, hoping that Taveras would pan out.

i agree, and i'm joking. i don't hold these guys accountable for not having a crystal ball. baseball is way too hard to predict.

having said that...i've heard some say that given the option of Taveras with this club, they should never have wasted their time with Beltran like that in the offseason.

[Austin70]

i agree, and i'm joking. i don't hold these guys accountable for not having a crystal ball. baseball is way too hard to predict.

having said that...i've heard some say that given the option of Taveras with this club, they should never have wasted their time with Beltran like that in the offseason.

Knowing what we know now, we wasted our time with Beltran, but after he kicked ass in the playoffs, he looked like a sure thing to be great.

[MadMax]

Knowing what we know now, we wasted our time with Beltran, but after he kicked ass in the playoffs, he looked like a sure thing to be great.

i agree. i would be a hypocrite if i said otherwise, because i was all about re-signing beltran and was disappointed when it didn't work out.

now i'm glad i was wrong.

[Dennis2112]

Beltran was never going to sign here.
The only person in his group and advisors who wanted to him to sign here was his wife and apparently she did not have the pull. His agent raked the Astros over the coals to get the biggest deal possible. That in itself is his job but to flat out lie to Drayton and the Astros is not doing business fairly.

There was a news report about a month before the deadline that Borass told the Astros that they were out of the running. Drayton wanted to have a joint press conference saying that but Borass said ...oh wait we can still work it out. I guess Borass did not want the ONLY suitor for Beltran's services to go by the wayside.

Until the Mutts came into the picture late in the game, nobody...I repeat, nobody had made an offer but the Astros.

Beltran wanted the Yankees. The Yankees, having dealt with Borass before, said "don't call us we'll call you".

If there is a deal breaker in any negotiations, you do not bring it up in the 11th hour along with 10 other demands that were never even discussed before if you are serious about signing.

[VesceySux]

Beltran was never going to sign here.
The only person in his group and advisors who wanted to him to sign here was his wife and apparently she did not have the pull.

False.

I know for a fact that Beltran was leaning towards Houston until the final day(s).

[Svpernaut]

False.

I know for a fact that Beltran was leaning towards Houston until the final day(s).

What the hell are you smoking?

[Austin70]

What the hell are you smoking?

If he says it is true, it is.

[Dennis2112]

False.

I know for a fact that Beltran was leaning towards Houston until the final day(s).


You may feel that way but there is no evidence that shows that. Oh I know he said the right things in the media but I know from a good source that Borass was calling the Yankees eveytime the Astros made an offer and they said the same thing everytime..." don't call us, we'll call you". The Yankees wanted no part of Borass or Beltran. They needed pitching and that is what they spent their money on.

Borass would not allow Drayton or any Astros management to speak with Beltran directly but invited the GM from the Mutts to visit Beltran in PR. Drayton could not even get Beltran on the phone ler alone speak to him. That does not sound like a person who wants to be signed by Houston.

[VesceySux]

What the hell are you smoking?

I originally broke (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=78208&page=4&pp=30) the Beltran-to-Houston story. Doesn't that tell you anything? Don't you think I could use that connection again?

You may feel that way but there is no evidence that shows that.

There is no "feel" here. Beltran's personal handler said he was leaning towards Houston. This statement was made "off the record," and as I am NOT the media, there was no need to blow smoke up MY ass (I mean, c'mon... who am I?).

It still doesn't change the fact that Beltran ruined our damn off-season.

[Austin70]

Told ya so.

[Kerfeld]

I am happy the way things turned out, but I too must also admit, I was completely ticked off when we didnt get Beltran. I always felt that Beltran would stay with us, and it hurt even more when he left. That being said, I will gladly eat crow and be thankful that we did not sign him. I do wish we would have kept Jeff Kent.

[Toast]

Yeah, if we had Kent right now I wouldn't be wishing for 1 more bat in the offense. I think after he came to town and I got the boooooos out of my system I feel much better about the whole Beltran fiasco.

[Dennis2112]

I originally broke (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=78208&page=4&pp=30) the Beltran-to-Houston story. Doesn't that tell you anything? Don't you think I could use that connection again?

[/b]

There is no "feel" here. Beltran's personal handler said he was leaning towards Houston. This statement was made "off the record," and as I am NOT the media, there was no need to blow smoke up MY ass (I mean, c'mon... who am I?).

It still doesn't change the fact that Beltran ruined our damn off-season.

VS, I was not doubting what you heard, just doubting the truthfulness of what was said to you.
I know Beltran said through the media that he liked it here and liked playing here, and liked the players, blah..blah..blah

It just seems like smoke screen to either drive the price as high as possible or try to get the Yankees attention. It just seemed like everybody that had inside info was saying that Beltran was signing here..that is everybody but Borass. All he kept saying was more, more, more then once the Muts got involved, he pulled the trump card and said oh BTW we need these other 11 demands, at the 11th hour. If a person really wanted to stay here, he would have told his agent get it done with the best deal possible. He would not take a gamble tactic like that unless he wanted to torpedo the negotiations.

[Groogrux]

Just a theory on Kent. Something I've just been throwing around in my head for the past 30 seconds. Isn't there a good chance that with Kent, we're the same team as last year? You know, the one that was sucking before we traded for Beltran (and for a bit after we acquired him)? I think there's something to be said for clubhouse chemistry and by all accounts, the 2005 Astros clubhouse is one of the best we've seen as far as it being a bunch of good guys who get along tremendously. Who's to say that Kent, who some here have heard was not a good clubhouse guy at all, wouldn't have been more of a detraction than an addition?

I'm not saying I completely believe this and 9 times out of 10, I say we should've resigned him, but who knows?

[T_in_Charlotte]

It would be nice to have Kent back for his bat, but at the same time, the trade off with Biggio butchering fly balls in LF is something I would not like. Still, the option for a guy who puts up numbers like Kent was a steal, and they should have made it happen.

[Dennis2112]

It would be nice to have Kent back for his bat, but at the same time, the trade off with Biggio butchering fly balls in LF is something I would not like. Still, the option for a guy who puts up numbers like Kent was a steal, and they should have made it happen.


It was not about the option, it was about the guaranteed 2nd year that the Astros did want to give him and the Dogders did.